You say: Evolution is the attempt to explain how this world came to be and tries interpret the facts of science without God.
This is close... but you should say: Evolution tries interpret the facts.
Genetic sequences are *facts*.
If they are accurate, then either man descended from older non human mammals or god is a liar and for some unknown reason did a wonderful job a making our dna 99% the same as chimps while really creating us from scratch and creating false evidence of an "eve" about 50k years ago to trick us.
Sedementary layers with only certain kinds of fossils in them are facts. Either the planet is as old as it seems and there were billions of years of different species coming into existence and going extinct with lots of facts (evidence) showing constant transformation of other species OR god is a liar and created a lot of false facts to trick us.
Why would god want to trick us about the age of the universe by creating false facts? What purpose does it serve?
Well before i can carefully answer you, I need to some of your axioms.
None of them have to be exact values- I'm not engaged in a gotcha game here. Just round figures so we have some baselines to work from.
How many years ago was the universe created?
How many years ago was the earth created?
How many years ago did the earth become habitable by any form of life?
Was the first life on earth created by another being? If so - how many years ago?
How many years ago did the earth become habitable by man?
How long ago did the first human come into existence?
Was the first man created from *nothing*- essentially finished as a modern human?
--- I'll answer based on my values for these. How many years ago was the universe created? about 16 to 20 billion years ago- based on measurements that make younger values impossible unless the universe was created with false evidence that it was older.
How many years ago was the earth created? about 4 billion years ago- based on measurements that make younger values impossible unless the universe was created with false evidence that it was older.
How many years ago did the earth become habitable by any form of life? about 3.5 billion years ago- based on measurements that make younger values impossible unless the universe was created with false evidence that it was older.
Was the first life on earth created by another being? If so - how many years ago? I don't know. It could have been created by a deity- it could have been seeded by a space alien in a space ship- it could have been seeded by spores on meteors from older systems.
How many years ago did the earth become habitable by man? About 1 billion years ago. Before that, most of the land was barren.
How long ago did the first human come into existence? Artifacts suggest more than 25k years ago. Genetic evidence suggests an "eve" about 50k years ago.
Was the first man created from *nothing*- essentially finished as a modern human? This doesn't make sense based on genetics. Man's genetic structures are most similar to apes. There are well recognized genetic techniques which have been used to make predictions which were true (and so supported the theory). So either man was created- but for some reason the creator specifically created a huge amount of false evidence that we are genetically related to certain other species or -- more likely-- we descend from a common apelike ancester.
Questions and speculation:
Why would a creator make a universe which has so much false evidence pointing to it being old? Why would a creator make a universe... let it sit for *OVER* 15 billion years without humans in it and then finally get around to creating humans? Why would a creator make a species with has so much false evidence pointing to it being descended from other species?
So... If there was a creator and it created the ENTIRE universe 16+ billion years ago... AND set basic rules that cause life to arise on every habitable planet, then we are not that special and there are *billions* of other planets with billions of intelligent beings on them. Clearly, there are billions of other stars and it looks more likely that lots of them have habitable planets every day.
Just as likely, the creator might create universes like a clam creates shells. Universes may just be a byproduct of some other process.
--- I don't know if there is a god or not. I don't know if god created the universe. I don't know if there is a real god whether the real god is shiva, thor, god, allah, or some other god we don't even worship any more. It's likely that if god is real, that one of the existing religions are worshiping the correct god (i'd assume god would put his thumb on the scales now and then for it's chosen religion).
Sure the promoters of evolution don't become big Chimps?
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Seriously- natural selection and speciation are both observed facts. Genetic studies support a common ancester about 50k years back. Fossil and genetic studies support billions of years of many species existing before humans arose.
We have a few basic choices. 1) Evolutionary theory: Man arose from another species over the last couple million years. The homo sapiens line broke off that fairly recently- maybe 100k years or less. Man had a common "eve" mother at about 50k years ago and after that it out competed/killed all other "near men". It started leaving evidence in caves 25k years ago and building cities/growing things about 10k years ago.
2) Genesis theory: Man was created out of nothing on an already populated and ancient planet about 50k years ago. Despite being created from scratch, man's genetic structure was artificially made to strongly resemble chimps and great apes (something like 98% the same) and to be disimilar to cats, dogs, alligators, by differing amounts- each amount being internally consistent "as if" the cats, dogs, alligators, apes and man all came from some prior common species fifty to a hundred million years ago.
3) Genesis Two theory. ( a fun movie too btw) Man existed for several billion years, coexisting with the dinosaurs, but never left any fossil record until 10k years ago (maybe 25kish for the cave paintings). And despite existing longer- his genetic structure is again consistent with having a common ancestor to other mammals very recently in the past and with having a single "eve" about 50k years ago.
4) Genesis Three Theory. (which sadly had no sequel). The entire earth was created very recently in the past- 4k to 50k years ago. All fossil evidence is false- created by god to test our faith. All genetic evidence woven throughout all living things is also false- it was set like a clock to indicate the earth was very old. Uncountable asteroid craters, layers of stone with fossils in them, hell even the ice and mud on the sea floor was laid down to provide consistent data that the planet was very old. The very LIGHT and gravity was created in the entire universe to be moving and oriented and dopplered to give the impression that the universe was billions of years old at a minimum. THEN- about 2k years ago, god wrote a book contradicting all the physical evidence that we had to believe or else our souls* we be condemned to eternal punishment (or at least dissolution).
5) from here it is so implausible there is no point in continuing-- with giant elephants, turtles, midgard serpants, and so on.
So the religious types are basically that god is a big liar who created the entire physical universe as a lie then asked us to believe a religious text by barbarian mideastern tribesmen over the physical, measurable, verifable facts.
now- about the "first creation" of life. There is no solid evidence for how the *first* life got started and we have not created artificial life in a lab yet.
However, We can definately say-- this planet was UNINHABITABLE for millions of years. We can definately say-- this planet did not have an oxygen atmosphere. We can definately say-- MAN was NOT on this planet for a LONG time that it existed and man is here now. We can conclude with certainty - man was not on this planet before 50 million years ago. We can conclude with certainty - man's genetic structure is very similar to apes and disimilar to dolphins.
Based on facts and these concrete conclusions, we can decide either man evolved from a common ancestor with apes or some wacked out god/alien came here and did a really good job of faking man's dna up to look like it (and why?? I mean seriously- it would have been the ultimate scientific support for creation religion if man was the only species on earth whose dna didn't fit the rest). You go with what makes you feel better- I'll go with observable, measurable facts and the logical
Short term- it looks like being religious and ignorant is best.
Long term- that breeds enough of us that we must kill many of our own species competing over resources.
Very long term, unless we get off this planet and out of this solar system- we are toast in maybe a few billion years while the universe continues on for many billion years more. So we need a religion dedicated to getting us into star ships (even if only generational ships).
I'm not saying that a guy banging rocks wasn't using the scientific method.
I'm saying as soon as the guy assigns a bunch of extra mystic rules that do not contribute to the actual fire making he has left the scientific method behind. As soon as he extends from banging rocks = fire to "banging skulls = soulfire" there is no longer science.
And my basic point was just because some ancient cult says "banging skulls releases soul fire" doesn't mean we should blow off their entire body of knowledge.
I'm basing the idea on the numerous examples of such exact circumstances already provided in this thread. You read them- so I'm going to conclude at this point you are just being stubborn or trolling us on this issue.
In closing on my part: Don't blow off ancient hokem too casually over "science." We have often found useful information in masses of superstition.
The scientific method relies on independent verification of the facts. If I can do it, you can do it.
Science cuts away bad or useless knowledge aggressively.
Science reduces things to formulas that allow you to predict how things will behave without having to physically do them.
Science questions existing assumptions and doesn't behead/burn/kill those who disagree with the current dogma. Well maybe in soviet russia with regard to genetics but that laid waste to their genetics programs for three generations.
Ancient civilizations had arbitrary rules which helped them. They didn't know *why* the rules helped them. They had no "theory" about why the rules helped them. They just knew- don't eat cloven hoofed animals they are cursed. Or when the god of the earth and the goddess of the sea fight, you should run up into the hills if the land takes the sea because the sea will take back the land. They problem was they also "just knew" lots of other things like witches float (what a twisted test that is).
Other people around them who lacked those abitrary rules died off. However, just like a secondary trait can be carried along with a very useful primary trait, a lot of random arbitrary rules were neutral or even slightly negative and they were carried forward along with the good rule.
AC's "test" of the rules were did they die or not. They had some nasty rules that slowed down experimentation... if your patient died, you probably did as well.
On the other hand- extreme pressure really pushed innovation (He's dying and I'm going to die, I'll try every thing I can put my hands on. Oh cool- eating these purple berries, blue flowers, leaves gathered by dawn, and licking a rock cured him.
It was actually the leaves-- which could be gathered any time-- but superstition is going to carry the other things along as well where science would immediately start looking for what among those four choices did it. On the other hand- if the solution really is all four, science tends to cut away too much and go for the "one chemical" aproach that solves 90% of the problem.
4) It makes no difference how I vote*. I has not for at least 12 years. My district is 70/30 split.
*I still vote and it did make a difference in 1 vote (out of several hundred). Even then not really but we throught the incumbant out by 31 votes. I guess I was #31. Every other election goes down exactly as they planned. Electoral districts should be basically rectangular. You should not be able to do what they do with them.
The problem with more and more of the world is allowing little groups of people to teach their children specialized versions of reality.
A national public school system really goes a long way towards creating a shared view of reality. It is part of what made america work as a melting pot.
Because of the abortion issue, the lunatics have gotten control of the asylum. we are basically sacrificing everything else over that issue. I'm for it- but I'm about ready to give it up for a generation so we can fix everything else going wrong because it animates the religious types too much.
"And the ramblings of ancient civilizations do? It's the only proven productive method for answering ANYTHING. Questions that can't be answered by science are either subjective or probably can't be answered. "
is exactly the problem with most scientists (and doctors).
The fact is that many ancient civilizations had thousands of years to work out facts. In many cases, they describe them as superstitions and myths but underlying this is the fact that they survived and others who didn't believe that way perished.
This is how science found the hanta virus in part. There were lots of *legends* and bizarre customs (if a mouse touches your bedding throw it out).
Perhaps the key is your word "productive". Because over 90% of these superstition based science discoveries are bullshit. You have to use the scientific method to cut away the parts of the meme that do nothing from the ones where the meat is.
I think the same people that want to kill every israeli have us as number 2 on their list.
Short of us converting to islam, the islamic types are going to have to start ratting out the extremists (as they did in this case) and stop teaching their kids that they will go to heaven if they kill us or we are going to have a large scale war between the two cultures.
I'm willing to accept that if you can accept that basically all land throughout history was founded by stealing based on a sense of divine right. History is muddy with the footprints of people killing other people and taking their land. It did not stop until the last hundred years or so.
WASHINGTON, DC, January 28, 2005 -- Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom released today a new report exposing the dissemination of hate propaganda in America by the government of Saudi Arabia....... The report concludes that the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a "totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence," and the fact that it is "being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government, namely Saudi Arabia, demands our urgent attention."
The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines
One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels.
elsewhere...
http://amsam.org/2005_03_01_archive.html What Islamic schools are teaching New York City: An investigation by the New York Daily News in 2003 found that books used in the city's Muslim schools "are rife with inaccuracies, sweeping condemnations of Jews and Christians, and triumphalist declarations of Islam's supremacy."
Los Angeles: The Omar Ibn Khattab Foundation donated 300 copies of the Koran (titled The Meaning of the Holy Quran) to the city school district in 2001 that had to be pulled from school libraries within months because of its anti-Semitic commentaries. One footnote reads: "The Jews in their arrogance claimed that all wisdom and all knowledge of Allah was enclosed in their hearts... Their claim was not only arrogance but blasphemy."
The Muslim Community School in Potomac, Maryland, imbues in its students a sense of alienation from their own country. Seventh-grader Miriam told a Washington Post reporter in 2001, "Being American is just being born in this country." Eighth-grader Ibrahim announced that "Being an American means nothing to me."
A textbook used at the Islamic Saudi Academy of Alexandria, Virginia, in 2004, authored and published by the Saudi Ministry of Education, teaches first-graders that "all religions, other than Islam, are false, including that of the Jews [and] Christians." An ISA class valedictorian, Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, was recently indicted for plotting to assassinate President Bush.
[All this is assigned the usual code words of extremist and fundamentalist, when in fact it is an accurate representation of Islam as found in the Quran. And it is unmentioned that the same sort of anti-social behavior is encouraged by the Bible. The problem isn't a mis-representation and distortion of religion, the problem is religion itself.]
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My perception of islam at this time is that they hide their true colors until they have a majority, then they impose islam- if need be violently.
I hope that can change in my lifetime. I'm very skeptical as long as the children are being taught this crap the cycle of violence is going to continue.
I don't suppose the fact that Hezbolla has a rocket launcher next to the building (that they know is full of civilians) figures into the attacks at all.
Are there extremist Muslims that are completely intolerant of other faiths? Yep. The same can be said of Christians, Jews, Hindus...I'll bet there are even intolerant Buddhists and atheists out there, though you'd have to look harder.
Yes, but I don't buddists in Afganistan cheering and firing guns in the air when buddists in indonesia kill a bunch of 19 year olds out dancing.
Mohammad, who tolerated Christians and Jews as fellow "people of the book".
Okay-- and what about the 2 billion plus people who are not "people of the book"?
Islamics are TOO tolerant of extremist islamics. TOO quiet when islamics murder, behead, torture, mutilate, force young girls without burkas to burn to death, TOO accepting when women and children are put in harms way *ON PURPOSE* to die to score political points. They are frequently hypocritical when they are not outright lying (saying they are for peace outside of the mosque but preaching the reverse in private).
The "tolerant" islamics have *GOT* to start ratting out the evil scumbags and teaching their children that islam is *A* religion- not *THE* religion and stop teaching their children that it is okay to kill / conquer non-islamics. Until then, you are like the 'innocent' palestinians who provide money, cover, and lodging for the 'real bad guys.'
If you are giving money to an islamic "charity" that is paying for bombs to blow people up then you are just as guilty as they are of being evil.
Christianity has had dark days. The bible has some lovely dark passages about killing men and child males while taking all the females (forced marriage/rape) in the sections dealing with moses conquests of unbelievers.
However...
99% of christian faith today is about forgiveness and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. About tolerance of others differences.
Everytime I see some wack-job islamic has killed a non-believers, there are mass celebrations on TV by islamic people who don't even know what the hell was going on except that non-islamics were killed.
The palestinian people permanently lost me the day we had people jumping to their deaths from burning buildings and they were *celebrating* in the streets that people they didn't know were dying. Almost certainly some of the people in the WTC were islamic.
I *know* how the saudi's teach their children about the world. The state religion/approved texts are as bad as the 1% fringe wacko end of times christian crazy's here. Perhaps when they stop teaching their 8 year olds that it is a good thing to kill non-islamics we will stop having a problem with them.
There have been numerous cases where islamic figures say "A" in public and then are shown to be saying "B" in the privacy of their mosques. You lose a little bit of credibility after being caught doing this for the 20th or 30th time. I *get* it. They want to kill me because I do not believe. You don't have to try to kill me a 15th or 20th time for me to believe them. Funny, I don't believe in christianity either (nor any other invisible beings that can't be measured) but I never fear that my christian friends are going to kill me. Sure, I know they are at some fundamental level just slightly crazy by rational logic but it is a harmless nice crazy.
OTH, I do know that at any time, they can drift more extreme and cut me out of their life- because a few have- purely on a religious basis. They were comfortable with me for years, then all the sudden I had to convert or they could not know me any more. So I do not invest as much in my christian friends as I used to. They may not want to kill me but they may suddenly want to "unyoke" from me.
The reason america works is that everyone ignores their faith except when they are in their own particular temple and only exposes the friendly nice parts day to day. There is a completely irrational disconnect between believing in the only god "A" and for bowling night being a bud of a guy who believes in the only god "B".
Unfortunately, the abortion issue is pushing people into extremism here. No... I can't go and try to save 50 starving living children elsewhere- I have to get in your face and stop you from aborting that 1 unborn child here. Even tho I won't adopt it or want to pay for raising it after it is born.
Anyway.. this is rambling. I'll stop here.
Basic point: yes christianity was very evil for hundreds of years- but 99% of it is not evil today. I would not even grant 50/50 to islam at this point. And if they don't stop teaching their kids we are not human, they are better than us, and killing us is the way to heaven, then things are going to get very nasty within the next 20 years. And once you really piss the west off, we get very nasty. We will burn cities to ashes. Just like the romans, we'll kill everyone and sow salt in the ground-- and then feel remorse when we can safely do so afterwards. It is really quite bipolar.
The main beef is that we do not worship Allah and so we are not human and so it is okay to kill us.
before you ask...
Google "islam koran unbelievers".
There are plenty of quotes *from the koran* to back that up.
Also consider that islamic members in a variety of countries that have nothing to do with third world inequities engage in murderous behavior. We even have native born citizens of various countries killing their own kinsmin over this.
Then lately, you have islamics happily killing each other (iraq) or willingly sacrificing women and children (lebanon).
It is a toxic death worshipping faith that is completely intolerant of other faiths. It is just a matter of time until there is a show down.
Non random. Multiple simultaneous strategies (longest route, oasis capturing, territory capturing). Every game plays differently. It plays very fast (30 mins for average game).
It's hard to face that it is true. It is so easy to ignore it.
It's the new "friendly fascism" where if you don't mess with the powers that be, they leave you alone until they define some new previously legal activity as illegal and now you are on their bad side.
There is no real place to run any more- the world is full of fascist democracies and worse.
Slashdot Mirror
You say:
Evolution is the attempt to explain how this world came to be and tries interpret the facts of science without God.
This is close... but you should say:
Evolution tries interpret the facts.
Genetic sequences are *facts*.
If they are accurate, then either man descended from older non human mammals or god is a liar and for some unknown reason did a wonderful job a making our dna 99% the same as chimps while really creating us from scratch and creating false evidence of an "eve" about 50k years ago to trick us.
Sedementary layers with only certain kinds of fossils in them are facts. Either the planet is as old as it seems and there were billions of years of different species coming into existence and going extinct with lots of facts (evidence) showing constant transformation of other species OR god is a liar and created a lot of false facts to trick us.
Why would god want to trick us about the age of the universe by creating false facts?
What purpose does it serve?
Well before i can carefully answer you, I need to some of your axioms.
None of them have to be exact values- I'm not engaged in a gotcha game here. Just round figures so we have some baselines to work from.
How many years ago was the universe created?
How many years ago was the earth created?
How many years ago did the earth become habitable by any form of life?
Was the first life on earth created by another being? If so - how many years ago?
How many years ago did the earth become habitable by man?
How long ago did the first human come into existence?
Was the first man created from *nothing*- essentially finished as a modern human?
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I'll answer based on my values for these.
How many years ago was the universe created?
about 16 to 20 billion years ago- based on measurements that make younger values impossible unless the universe was created with false evidence that it was older.
How many years ago was the earth created?
about 4 billion years ago- based on measurements that make younger values impossible unless the universe was created with false evidence that it was older.
How many years ago did the earth become habitable by any form of life?
about 3.5 billion years ago- based on measurements that make younger values impossible unless the universe was created with false evidence that it was older.
Was the first life on earth created by another being? If so - how many years ago?
I don't know. It could have been created by a deity- it could have been seeded by a space alien in a space ship- it could have been seeded by spores on meteors from older systems.
How many years ago did the earth become habitable by man?
About 1 billion years ago. Before that, most of the land was barren.
How long ago did the first human come into existence?
Artifacts suggest more than 25k years ago.
Genetic evidence suggests an "eve" about 50k years ago.
Was the first man created from *nothing*- essentially finished as a modern human?
This doesn't make sense based on genetics.
Man's genetic structures are most similar to apes. There are well recognized genetic techniques which have been used to make predictions which were true (and so supported the theory). So either man was created- but for some reason the creator specifically created a huge amount of false evidence that we are genetically related to certain other species or -- more likely-- we descend from a common apelike ancester.
Questions and speculation:
Why would a creator make a universe which has so much false evidence pointing to it being old?
Why would a creator make a universe... let it sit for *OVER* 15 billion years without humans in it and then finally get around to creating humans?
Why would a creator make a species with has so much false evidence pointing to it being descended from other species?
So... If there was a creator and it created the ENTIRE universe 16+ billion years ago... AND set basic rules that cause life to arise on every habitable planet, then we are not that special and there are *billions* of other planets with billions of intelligent beings on them. Clearly, there are billions of other stars and it looks more likely that lots of them have habitable planets every day.
Just as likely, the creator might create universes like a clam creates shells. Universes may just be a byproduct of some other process.
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I don't know if there is a god or not. I don't know if god created the universe. I don't know if there is a real god whether the real god is shiva, thor, god, allah, or some other god we don't even worship any more. It's likely that if god is real, that one of the existing religions are worshiping the correct god (i'd assume god would put his thumb on the scales now and then for it's chosen religion).
Sure the promoters of evolution don't become big Chimps?
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Seriously- natural selection and speciation are both observed facts.
Genetic studies support a common ancester about 50k years back.
Fossil and genetic studies support billions of years of many species existing before humans arose.
We have a few basic choices.
1) Evolutionary theory:
Man arose from another species over the last couple million years. The homo sapiens line broke off that fairly recently- maybe 100k years or less. Man had a common "eve" mother at about 50k years ago and after that it out competed/killed all other "near men". It started leaving evidence in caves 25k years ago and building cities/growing things about 10k years ago.
2) Genesis theory:
Man was created out of nothing on an already populated and ancient planet about 50k years ago. Despite being created from scratch, man's genetic structure was artificially made to strongly resemble chimps and great apes (something like 98% the same) and to be disimilar to cats, dogs, alligators, by differing amounts- each amount being internally consistent "as if" the cats, dogs, alligators, apes and man all came from some prior common species fifty to a hundred million years ago.
3) Genesis Two theory. ( a fun movie too btw)
Man existed for several billion years, coexisting with the dinosaurs, but never left any fossil record until 10k years ago (maybe 25kish for the cave paintings). And despite existing longer- his genetic structure is again consistent with having a common ancestor to other mammals very recently in the past and with having a single "eve" about 50k years ago.
4) Genesis Three Theory. (which sadly had no sequel).
The entire earth was created very recently in the past- 4k to 50k years ago. All fossil evidence is false- created by god to test our faith. All genetic evidence woven throughout all living things is also false- it was set like a clock to indicate the earth was very old. Uncountable asteroid craters, layers of stone with fossils in them, hell even the ice and mud on the sea floor was laid down to provide consistent data that the planet was very old. The very LIGHT and gravity was created in the entire universe to be moving and oriented and dopplered to give the impression that the universe was billions of years old at a minimum. THEN- about 2k years ago, god wrote a book contradicting all the physical evidence that we had to believe or else our souls* we be condemned to eternal punishment (or at least dissolution).
5) from here it is so implausible there is no point in continuing-- with giant elephants, turtles, midgard serpants, and so on.
So the religious types are basically that god is a big liar who created the entire physical universe as a lie then asked us to believe a religious text by barbarian mideastern tribesmen over the physical, measurable, verifable facts.
now- about the "first creation" of life.
There is no solid evidence for how the *first* life got started and we have not created artificial life in a lab yet.
However,
We can definately say-- this planet was UNINHABITABLE for millions of years.
We can definately say-- this planet did not have an oxygen atmosphere.
We can definately say-- MAN was NOT on this planet for a LONG time that it existed and man is here now.
We can conclude with certainty - man was not on this planet before 50 million years ago.
We can conclude with certainty - man's genetic structure is very similar to apes and disimilar to dolphins.
Based on facts and these concrete conclusions, we can decide either man evolved from a common ancestor with apes or some wacked out god/alien came here and did a really good job of faking man's dna up to look like it (and why?? I mean seriously- it would have been the ultimate scientific support for creation religion if man was the only species on earth whose dna didn't fit the rest). You go with what makes you feel better- I'll go with observable, measurable facts and the logical
Short term- it looks like being religious and ignorant is best.
Long term- that breeds enough of us that we must kill many of our own species competing over resources.
Very long term, unless we get off this planet and out of this solar system- we are toast in maybe a few billion years while the universe continues on for many billion years more. So we need a religion dedicated to getting us into star ships (even if only generational ships).
One issue then being that the line from Adam and Eve reported in the bible is not old enough to cover the observed genetic data.
But hey, as long as you are not trying to kill me for believing differently, you believe what ever makes you happy.
I'm not saying that a guy banging rocks wasn't using the scientific method.
I'm saying as soon as the guy assigns a bunch of extra mystic rules that do not contribute to the actual fire making he has left the scientific method behind. As soon as he extends from banging rocks = fire to "banging skulls = soulfire" there is no longer science.
And my basic point was just because some ancient cult says "banging skulls releases soul fire" doesn't mean we should blow off their entire body of knowledge.
I'm basing the idea on the numerous examples of such exact circumstances already provided in this thread. You read them- so I'm going to conclude at this point you are just being stubborn or trolling us on this issue.
In closing on my part:
Don't blow off ancient hokem too casually over "science." We have often found useful information in masses of superstition.
Saw an interesting comment here...
As a result of religious persecution many of the strongly religious fringe types moved to America to escape said persecution.
So we have a higher concentration of religious culture and those genetically predisposed to being strongly religious.
The scientific method relies on independent verification of the facts. If I can do it, you can do it.
Science cuts away bad or useless knowledge aggressively.
Science reduces things to formulas that allow you to predict how things will behave without having to physically do them.
Science questions existing assumptions and doesn't behead/burn/kill those who disagree with the current dogma. Well maybe in soviet russia with regard to genetics but that laid waste to their genetics programs for three generations.
Ancient civilizations had arbitrary rules which helped them. They didn't know *why* the rules helped them. They had no "theory" about why the rules helped them. They just knew- don't eat cloven hoofed animals they are cursed. Or when the god of the earth and the goddess of the sea fight, you should run up into the hills if the land takes the sea because the sea will take back the land. They problem was they also "just knew" lots of other things like witches float (what a twisted test that is).
Other people around them who lacked those abitrary rules died off. However, just like a secondary trait can be carried along with a very useful primary trait, a lot of random arbitrary rules were neutral or even slightly negative and they were carried forward along with the good rule.
AC's "test" of the rules were did they die or not. They had some nasty rules that slowed down experimentation... if your patient died, you probably did as well.
On the other hand- extreme pressure really pushed innovation (He's dying and I'm going to die, I'll try every thing I can put my hands on. Oh cool- eating these purple berries, blue flowers, leaves gathered by dawn, and licking a rock cured him.
It was actually the leaves-- which could be gathered any time-- but superstition is going to carry the other things along as well where science would immediately start looking for what among those four choices did it. On the other hand- if the solution really is all four, science tends to cut away too much and go for the "one chemical" aproach that solves 90% of the problem.
4) It makes no difference how I vote*. I has not for at least 12 years. My district is 70/30 split.
*I still vote and it did make a difference in 1 vote (out of several hundred). Even then not really but we throught the incumbant out by 31 votes. I guess I was #31. Every other election goes down exactly as they planned. Electoral districts should be basically rectangular. You should not be able to do what they do with them.
The problem with more and more of the world is allowing little groups of people to teach their children specialized versions of reality.
A national public school system really goes a long way towards creating a shared view of reality. It is part of what made america work as a melting pot.
Because of the abortion issue, the lunatics have gotten control of the asylum. we are basically sacrificing everything else over that issue. I'm for it- but I'm about ready to give it up for a generation so we can fix everything else going wrong because it animates the religious types too much.
Don't get me wrong... but
"And the ramblings of ancient civilizations do? It's the only proven productive method for answering ANYTHING. Questions that can't be answered by science are either subjective or probably can't be answered. "
is exactly the problem with most scientists (and doctors).
The fact is that many ancient civilizations had thousands of years to work out facts. In many cases, they describe them as superstitions and myths but underlying this is the fact that they survived and others who didn't believe that way perished.
This is how science found the hanta virus in part. There were lots of *legends* and bizarre customs (if a mouse touches your bedding throw it out).
Perhaps the key is your word "productive". Because over 90% of these superstition based science discoveries are bullshit. You have to use the scientific method to cut away the parts of the meme that do nothing from the ones where the meat is.
Funny... I feel genuinely believe the opposite.
I think the same people that want to kill every israeli have us as number 2 on their list.
Short of us converting to islam, the islamic types are going to have to start ratting out the extremists (as they did in this case) and stop teaching their kids that they will go to heaven if they kill us or we are going to have a large scale war between the two cultures.
I think he purposely mispelled "mnay" for that line.
I think the idiot joke was the only meta-joke.
There was a fairly reasonable estimate of 18,000 cases at 3,000 dollars = 54 million dollars with likely costs under 10 million dollars.
There was also some evidence that this angle was considered by Riaa as a prelude to the campaign.
If it didn't start about money, it has become about money. 44 million dollars likely profit is not chump change.
I'm willing to accept that if you can accept that basically all land throughout history was founded by stealing based on a sense of divine right. History is muddy with the footprints of people killing other people and taking their land. It did not stop until the last hundred years or so.
b n-2005-01-28.htm
... The report concludes that the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a "totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence," and the fact that it is "being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government, namely Saudi Arabia, demands our urgent attention."
As for the rest...
http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2005/
WASHINGTON, DC, January 28, 2005 -- Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom released today a new report exposing the dissemination of hate propaganda in America by the government of Saudi Arabia....
The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines
One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels.
elsewhere...
http://amsam.org/2005_03_01_archive.html
What Islamic schools are teaching
New York City: An investigation by the New York Daily News in 2003 found that books used in the city's Muslim schools "are rife with inaccuracies, sweeping condemnations of Jews and Christians, and triumphalist declarations of Islam's supremacy."
Los Angeles: The Omar Ibn Khattab Foundation donated 300 copies of the Koran (titled The Meaning of the Holy Quran) to the city school district in 2001 that had to be pulled from school libraries within months because of its anti-Semitic commentaries. One footnote reads: "The Jews in their arrogance claimed that all wisdom and all knowledge of Allah was enclosed in their hearts... Their claim was not only arrogance but blasphemy."
The Muslim Community School in Potomac, Maryland, imbues in its students a sense of alienation from their own country. Seventh-grader Miriam told a Washington Post reporter in 2001, "Being American is just being born in this country." Eighth-grader Ibrahim announced that "Being an American means nothing to me."
A textbook used at the Islamic Saudi Academy of Alexandria, Virginia, in 2004, authored and published by the Saudi Ministry of Education, teaches first-graders that "all religions, other than Islam, are false, including that of the Jews [and] Christians." An ISA class valedictorian, Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, was recently indicted for plotting to assassinate President Bush.
[All this is assigned the usual code words of extremist and fundamentalist, when in fact it is an accurate representation of Islam as found in the Quran. And it is unmentioned that the same sort of anti-social behavior is encouraged by the Bible. The problem isn't a mis-representation and distortion of religion, the problem is religion itself.]
---
My perception of islam at this time is that they hide their true colors until they have a majority, then they impose islam- if need be violently.
I hope that can change in my lifetime. I'm very skeptical as long as the children are being taught this crap the cycle of violence is going to continue.
I don't suppose the fact that Hezbolla has a rocket launcher next to the building (that they know is full of civilians) figures into the attacks at all.
Are there extremist Muslims that are completely intolerant of other faiths? Yep. The same can be said of Christians, Jews, Hindus...I'll bet there are even intolerant Buddhists and atheists out there, though you'd have to look harder.
Yes, but I don't buddists in Afganistan cheering and firing guns in the air when buddists in indonesia kill a bunch of 19 year olds out dancing.
Mohammad, who tolerated Christians and Jews as fellow "people of the book".
Okay-- and what about the 2 billion plus people who are not "people of the book"?
Islamics are TOO tolerant of extremist islamics. TOO quiet when islamics murder, behead, torture, mutilate, force young girls without burkas to burn to death, TOO accepting when women and children are put in harms way *ON PURPOSE* to die to score political points. They are frequently hypocritical when they are not outright lying (saying they are for peace outside of the mosque but preaching the reverse in private).
The "tolerant" islamics have *GOT* to start ratting out the evil scumbags and teaching their children that islam is *A* religion- not *THE* religion and stop teaching their children that it is okay to kill / conquer non-islamics. Until then, you are like the 'innocent' palestinians who provide money, cover, and lodging for the 'real bad guys.'
If you are giving money to an islamic "charity" that is paying for bombs to blow people up then you are just as guilty as they are of being evil.
I second that.
.. this is rambling. I'll stop here.
Christianity has had dark days. The bible has some lovely dark passages about killing men and child males while taking all the females (forced marriage/rape) in the sections dealing with moses conquests of unbelievers.
However...
99% of christian faith today is about forgiveness and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. About tolerance of others differences.
Everytime I see some wack-job islamic has killed a non-believers, there are mass celebrations on TV by islamic people who don't even know what the hell was going on except that non-islamics were killed.
The palestinian people permanently lost me the day we had people jumping to their deaths from burning buildings and they were *celebrating* in the streets that people they didn't know were dying. Almost certainly some of the people in the WTC were islamic.
I *know* how the saudi's teach their children about the world. The state religion/approved texts are as bad as the 1% fringe wacko end of times christian crazy's here. Perhaps when they stop teaching their 8 year olds that it is a good thing to kill non-islamics we will stop having a problem with them.
There have been numerous cases where islamic figures say "A" in public and then are shown to be saying "B" in the privacy of their mosques. You lose a little bit of credibility after being caught doing this for the 20th or 30th time. I *get* it. They want to kill me because I do not believe. You don't have to try to kill me a 15th or 20th time for me to believe them. Funny, I don't believe in christianity either (nor any other invisible beings that can't be measured) but I never fear that my christian friends are going to kill me. Sure, I know they are at some fundamental level just slightly crazy by rational logic but it is a harmless nice crazy.
OTH, I do know that at any time, they can drift more extreme and cut me out of their life- because a few have- purely on a religious basis. They were comfortable with me for years, then all the sudden I had to convert or they could not know me any more. So I do not invest as much in my christian friends as I used to. They may not want to kill me but they may suddenly want to "unyoke" from me.
The reason america works is that everyone ignores their faith except when they are in their own particular temple and only exposes the friendly nice parts day to day. There is a completely irrational disconnect between believing in the only god "A" and for bowling night being a bud of a guy who believes in the only god "B".
Unfortunately, the abortion issue is pushing people into extremism here. No... I can't go and try to save 50 starving living children elsewhere- I have to get in your face and stop you from aborting that 1 unborn child here. Even tho I won't adopt it or want to pay for raising it after it is born.
Anyway
Basic point: yes christianity was very evil for hundreds of years- but 99% of it is not evil today. I would not even grant 50/50 to islam at this point. And if they don't stop teaching their kids we are not human, they are better than us, and killing us is the way to heaven, then things are going to get very nasty within the next 20 years. And once you really piss the west off, we get very nasty. We will burn cities to ashes. Just like the romans, we'll kill everyone and sow salt in the ground-- and then feel remorse when we can safely do so afterwards. It is really quite bipolar.
Islam needs to fix it's attitude problem.
The main beef is that we do not worship Allah and so we are not human and so it is okay to kill us.
before you ask...
Google "islam koran unbelievers".
There are plenty of quotes *from the koran* to back that up.
Also consider that islamic members in a variety of countries that have nothing to do with third world inequities engage in murderous behavior. We even have native born citizens of various countries killing their own kinsmin over this.
Then lately, you have islamics happily killing each other (iraq) or willingly sacrificing women and children (lebanon).
It is a toxic death worshipping faith that is completely intolerant of other faiths. It is just a matter of time until there is a show down.
I recommend "Through the Desert."
/.'ed.
Non random.
Multiple simultaneous strategies (longest route, oasis capturing, territory capturing).
Every game plays differently.
It plays very fast (30 mins for average game).
And it looks like boardgamegeek has been
It's hard to face that it is true.
It is so easy to ignore it.
It's the new "friendly fascism" where if you don't mess with the powers that be, they leave you alone until they define some new previously legal activity as illegal and now you are on their bad side.
There is no real place to run any more- the world is full of fascist democracies and worse.
At most stores, if you pay cash, you now pay $.50 to $1 per item premium for your privacy.
.98)
For example...
Milk, Gallon, $1 with affinity card. (-2% with rebate credit card =
Milk, Gallon, $2.50 without card. (-2% with rebate credit card = 2.45)
I don't understand it but as the population increases, the high brow entertainment audience remains the same size or shrinks.
Then as costs increase (property tax, salaries, etc.), they go under.
Kroger can look me up under my loyalty card any time.
Yes sir. Mr Harry Peter.
Unfortunately- you only have to slip and use a credit card once and they all link up so your obfuscation tactics do not matter.
Yea, they made the change without telling anyone apparently.
Good to see I'm not the only one who felt this way!