Slashdot Mirror
BBC Reports UK-U.S. Terror Plot Foiled
j823777 was one of several readers to point out a BBC report that "A terrorist plot to blow up planes in mid-flight from the UK to the U.S. has been disrupted, Scotland Yard has said. It is thought the plan was to detonate up to three explosive devices smuggled on aircraft in hand luggage.
Police have arrested 21 people in the London area after an anti-terrorist operation lasting several months. Security at all airports in the UK has been tightened and delays are reported. MI5 has raised the UK threat level to critical — the highest possible."
spo0nman adds a link to the Associated Press's coverage.
Update: 08/10 12:57 GMT by T : Several readers have pointed out new restrictions imposed as a result of this plot on passengers' carry-on luggage. In the UK, nearly all possession (including laptop computers) must be carried in the cargo hold; while their rules don't yet go quite as far, U.S. airlines are stepping up their enforcement of carry-on-restrictions, including banning substances like toothpaste.
Good work over there at Scotland Yard!
... not by attacking unrelated countries like Iraq.
Just Watch - the mid term elections this cycle will again be driven by raising the alert and fear level to drive voters into a panic, "Trust Our Imperious Leaders!" mode, no matter how corrupt, no matter how self-serving these alert levels are.
The Fearmongering must stop ! This is Stupid, Insulting, and Damaging to our Democracy!
Unitarian Church: Freethinkers Congregate!
The threats have not been "avoided", merely "postponed", until the terrorists have another/different idea, and/or security gets a little lax again.
From TFA: "Passengers are not allowed to take any hand luggage on to any flights in the UK, the department said."
Only passports, wallets.
The mind boggles. No computers, books, iPods, bottles of water, sunglasses?
Smoking, alcohol, and sex are already off-limits or difficult. I hope these are really short flights, and the planes have plenty of distractions for the passengers, otherwise we'll wonder if being blown up is not the better alternative.
First, congratulations to the Security Services for foiling this plot.
Did they need to detain someone for 90 days without trial to prevent this disaster?
Would ID cards have helped?
And how long before I can travel with my notebook onto an aeroplane again, as we all know a cargo hold is no place for a lithium ion battery?
No liquids or gels can be brought on board.
Reduce the "clutter" in your luggage so the inspectors have a clear view.
Medicine is ok and baby formula but be prepared to show it to the inspector.
Call carrier to see how early you have to arrive.
Have fun flying?!.
I wonder if the mousse in my hair will get me a trip to gitmo...
Not if your airplane breaks the time barrier and lands in 1986.
they didn't happen to shoot any of *these* terrorists 9 times in the head.
I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
WHY do these terrorists specifically hate those of us who are scared of flying??
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Ahhh.... Tony Blair's approval ratings must have hit the low level alarm setpoint.
"Just Watch - the mid term elections this cycle will again be driven by raising the alert and fear level to drive voters into a panic, "Trust Our Imperious Leaders!" mode, no matter how corrupt, no matter how self-serving these alert levels are. "
And when something DOES happen, and nobody ever passed on the "classified" knowledge to warn us, you'll be the first to blame the imperious leaders for laying down on the job. Why didn't he WARN us???.
"The Fearmongering must stop ! This is Stupid, Insulting, and Damaging to our Democracy!"
It has nothing to do with our democracy. Search Slashdot for the keyword "diebold" if you are worried about democracy.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Current information coming over the Beeb is that the plot may have included up to 9 planes simultaneously or in successive waves.
Explosives are suspected to have been carried on in hand luggage as liquids, suggesting that they were planning to use binary agents (where two non-explosive chemicals are mixed to form a 3rd reactive substance).
Currently travelers from the UK are being told that (IIRC) they may board the planes with absolutely no more than 7 carryon items, limited to a select list such as:
- 1 book
- 1 newspaper
- wallet
- passport
etc.
-Styopa
see subject
Please note that MI5 said 'disrupted', not 'foiled'. The impact that this event has caused can definitely be considered a significant success by the planning organisation or anyone aligned with their goals, if not as much as they wished.
Mind you, it might actually serve some interests better for tens of millions of people to be worried, inconvienced, or annoyed than for airliners to explode.
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything." (attrib. Joseph Stalin)
Lets hope their intelligence is better than previously
bang
bang
"Or, you could say, until we stop bombing the shit out of/subjugating/exploiting the third world in general..."
That is quite simplistic. Did you realize that the main beef of the Madrid bombers was that Spain had driven out Muslim invaders hundreds of years ago? It's too easy to dismiss everything as "the oppressed Third World being forced to strike back at First World oppressors", especially if you subscribe to very simplistic Marxist world-views and lack critical thinking.
Where were you when the voynix came?
WHENEVER the popularity of their administration goes way down, the bush & co and blair & co suddenly uncover a 'devilish grand terrorist plot'.
This is getting WAY old now.
Theres no way of proving whether what they say is right or wrong, whether the arrested are really guilty or not. They raise the alert level and finitto ! Civilian authorities and organisations do not have access to 'classified' information. Why, in this way, you can do something and blame it on the martians ?
I remember last time they shot an innocent brasilian IN THE BACK, and it was discovered months later, and with chance, that he wasnt a terrorist.
Blair, is a moron. He is also an exploiter of authority, benefiting the shady circles who put so much support behind him. Not unlike bush.
Read radical news here
One attack every 5 years. Sounds to me (and I guess everyone who lives in an area that deals or dealt with terrorist attacks on a daily base) not too threatening.
Giving up civil liberties for that? Hardly worth it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You should pull your head out of your @$$ and think about the "why" of the banning (contraband possibly to be used for explosives is being disguised as shampoo/gel). Put your "mousse" in your checked bag and you'll be fine, you flaming idiot. Otherwise, if people like you (village idiots) ran things, you'd later whine about how, in only your 5th flight in 10 years, your plane burst into flames over the ocean because you weren't being "looked out for". Moron.
Maybe a trip to "gitmo" (are you pretending to be military?) would properly change your perpsective...
I am shocked the US voted in Bush. I mean the US was never a target of Terrorism when Clinton was president.
Prof. Farnsworth - "Oh a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!"
Someone please tell me:
If the bad guys are supposed to be hand-carrying liquid explosives, what's to prevent them from putting the stuff in their checked luggage?
Don't they already make you take a gulp from your water-bottle, JIC it's full of bleached nitroglycerin?
What's to stop the bad guys from just going to the beach for a few weeks until the hubbub subsides?
The trick is to be a bit smarter, and thinking ahead of the Ali BAbas, not reacting to reported threats in both over and under thorough ways.
We've known about a likely plot to blow up several planes.
Now, the perpetrators have been arrested, and anyone else who may have been involved is potentially compromised, so will probsbly not risk carrying it out. As a result, an attack is less likely. So the alert level has gone up.
And for those of us that have been SLEEPING for the past 8 hours, it is news.
How about this time we wait to see some genuine evidence presented before we congratulate people for stopping a 'plot'. Because recently we've seen people arrested and even shot dead on the basis of bogus evidence.
Anyone notice how all the usual terrorist-coddling media sources referred to the suspects as being of south Asian origin? For crying out loud, call a spade a spade! The correct word is ARAB! Big fucking surprise that a bunch of ARABS would want to blow up as many civilians as possible. That NEVER happens. I'm so fuckig sick of Arabs using their weak-ass militaries as a moral justification for INTENTIONALLY targeting CIVILIANS. And the world's major media outlets are only too happy to fabricate increasingly more perverse moral justifications and propaganda photos in support of this bullshit! Why don't you pussies go after some military targets, huh? Fuck the pedophile Mohammed and the imaginary winged horse he flew in on, and fuck your imaginary friend Allah.
Gotta love it.. absofreakinglutely nothing happens until election time. Whatever happened to the Florida terrorist group that made headlines last time the prezs numbers were hitting the floor?
Security at airports is not 'tightened' it's fucking impossible. Anyone travelling from the UK to the USA will find that it's quicker to walk.
Ed Almos
The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus, 56-120 A.D.
The knees are jerking so loud there's a background hum across the whole hemisphere.
At O'Hare they're saying to allow 2 hours to check in and the TV reporters are saying that won't ber nearly enough time. GA is looking better with every new procedure.
Best of all, they are insisting that LAPTOP COMPUTERS have to be in checked baggage. None may be in carry ons. I think they're happily giving out clear plastic bags to hold them. Of course, as always the luggage cannot be locked lest the TSA not be able to search.
In other news, Ryder and U-Haul report a huge influx in demand for van rentals in locations near airports.
In other news, eBay reports a huge influx in for sale listings of nearly laptop computers.
When asked for comment the Department of Homeland Security refused citing national security reasons.
I'll take Amtrak or fly myself even if it takes me an extra 4 days on each end.
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
There are people so utterly insane they are calling this a Rovian Plot. The other half is calling for the death of all Non-Judeo/Christians.
People. Seriously. You have to stop looking for boogeymen everywhere. There really are terrorists out there and they really are looking to kill people. Most of them are not from or connected Washington DC.
This
and of course, it didn't take long for the US to say that it's the oh-so-scary al-Qaida
Chertoff: Plot 'Suggestive' of al-Qaida
Or finish the job
The missing part is what schools have stopped teaching. History. The situations in the Middle East go back as far as the Otterman empire, if not a bit further back.
Does anyone here have more information about what's going on in High Wycombe please?
Cheers,
Ian
This is news worthy and all, but is it really 'news for nerds'? What about the BBC article on reversing evolution in mice that showed up a couple of days ago? Didn't anyone submit anything like that? I never saw that show up here.
/.
Honestly, between this and the 'slashback' nonesense (talk about feeding on your own byproducts), I have to wonder how much influence 'mainstream media' is having on
The problem with a view of an evil government, is that it's grossly oversimplified. You can't assume an evil cabinet, evil MPs, evil police, evil local government and evil beurocracies. Some of these people are going to be at worst misguided.
Didn't Britain just introduce a terror threat level system a few weeks ago ? And right here is the chance to crank up the threat level a few notches ! The person in charge must be thrilled.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
Yassir Arafat, is that you? Did your wooden box come preinstalled with a Mr. Microphone?
I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
I agree. I reckon they completely made this up, just like they invented the WMDs in Iraq and so on. I don't trust Tony Blair's Government or our Intelligence Services one bit, and wouldn't be at all surprised if they'd invented this just to keep the general population on their toes.
Judging by the number of comments already posted blaming this on anything BUT Islamofascism, we are already doomed as a civilization.
Trade-in your iPods for prayer mats, dhimmis.
Why an American flag on a post about a British event?
I often have trouble remembering which way is out of bed in the morning.
Threat levels are meaningless and I wish the media wouldn't go on about them. They only serve to panic or worry people. They have no actual use or value to anyone except maybe someone with an interest in a panicked or worried population.
Assuming whole story is fake produced by politicians (because conflict and Liban, and because Blair needs votes), can anyone check what was the status of airline put options in last days?
This is legit though, that the DHS has banned liquids on flights, at least temporarily (carry-ons only). Of course, what about the in-flight drinks? What if one of the stewardists is a terrorist!!!???!!! Oh the paranoia :-(
Critical isn't the highest possible panic rating. I think at least "the end is near" and "rapture" are higher.
We haven't lost the war on terror. We're actively endorsing it, by being deliberately overprotective. No beverages on flights? Trans-atlantic (or even cross-country) flights are damned long.
Unfortunately, this whole mess will simple bring back the generic "wartime" retention for incumbents, and that's honestly more terrifying than the police/interpol/whatever doing their job.
I wonder if the mousse in my hair will get me a trip to gitmo...
No, but perhaps if you ask nicely, the Department of Homeland Security can give you some hair styling tips...
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
Is it me being pedantic and picky, but why does the root thread of this article show an american flag. Its a British story.
I love you, my supporting American cousins, but please...won't somebody think of the other countries.
>>>Scanning for I.D.I.O.T.S. >>>
>>>I.D.I.O.T.S. FOUND! >>>
And I'm in Hampstead and have been awake since 6am British Summer Time - so what. This is a place where a lot of clever, tech/science/geek/etc-focused people come to contribute to the Great Debate.
So I'm an idealist ;-) Still, I love trawling through the opinions - inane, insane and otherwise wise - on offer.
Of course, what will happen now is the the TSA or the FAA is going to ban all carryon liquids on air travel, and just for good measure will throw in food. So now that the airlines don't offer free food on flights, anyone want to start a pool on when the free sodas on the airplane will suddenly become very expensive? Put me down for Aug 18, 2006.
I'm not trying to suggest that this is some sort of plot by the airlines to charge higher drink prices. I don't think any such thing. I'm simply saying that this is the likely result of the inane government action that will innevitably follow: banning all carryon fluids on all commercial flights.
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
...more angry about the hassle this causes, than anything else? Terrorists spread terror, so they've hit their mark. By being foiled the plot does an amazing amount of damage on its own, spreading FUD.
I don't feel any safer by having my liquids/toenail clippers/pocket vibe/ipod/laptop taken away from me, when there are plenty of other ways to kill/be killed that airlines have no control over. I am more angry at terrorists for making American privacy close(er) to extinction than anything else. With a "war" on "terror" there are going to be casualties, my water consumption/music listening/laptop using/game playing/phone usage habits shouldn't be at the top of the list.
Why does the scapegoat have to be the common citizen?
when you are reporting the truth.
The fact is and has always been the same. Radical Islam wants to destroy the West. The best way to bring down their target is through fear. Ignoring it got us in the mess in the first place.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I told you....
STFU; you're retarded.
Well. It's a great idea irregardless of terrorism issues. There are enough laptops that have literally gone up in flames that I'd feel safer if they weren't in the cabin.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
MOST people would rather be worried or inconvenienced than burned to a crisp in mid-air. Please make wildly nonspecific, unfounded, and unprovable accusations elsewhere. If the plot had succeeded, you'd be the first asshole screaming, "Why didn't the authorities know?!"
Unless these restrictions are lifted, I don't think I'll ever be able to fly anywhere. Yes, I understand the need to a sensible level of security, but I see this as going too far.
I used to suffer from depression, and it has left me with the remnants of social anxiety. I can function out and about quite easily, but with very definite limits. Crowds still mess my head up. Queues fill me with dread. I need to travel with something to take my mind of things - often to shut out the world and people around me.
I also have a fair bit of not-exactly-cheap equipment that goes with me everywhere. There are things that do not get let out of my site. My laptop, for example, comes to work with me when I have a house-inspection. I trust my colleagues more than an inspector I've never met. Yet I'd be expected to fly long-haul without carrying it in my arms?
Yes, I know I'm probably slightly paranoid. But for one thing I've had things broken before when they were with people I didn't know or trust. And secondly, it's another holdover from my depression.
And right this very minute I feel extremely uncomfortable. I see an all-too-possible threat of increased security measures invading our lives to a greater extent, where the existing ones already feel too much.
Plus the idea of being stuck taking my holidays without ever leaving the UK[*] kinda fill me with dread.
[*] 'Cos I can't see these measures not spreading to Eurostar, somehow.
Tiggs
"120 chars should be enough for everyone..."
Just yesterday, the UK Home Secretary was in the news saying that "we may have to modify some of our freedoms in the short-term" to protect us from evil terrorists. Given the degree of preparedness demonstrated by various services today, it seems pretty obvious that he was aware of the current situation when he made those remarks -- thus it also seems clear that he was shape people's opinion in preperation for the events that are now unfolding in public today.
See: Terror 'may force freedom curbs'.
Why are planes and airports apparently such an appealing target for terrorism? If I really wanted to do some damage to civilians i'd go to a sold out college football game (very little security) and blow a chunk out of the stadium. If I wanted to do some damage to the government then I'd find some fairly small military building to blow up. And lastly, if I wanted to do something that would get a ton of media attention, i'd blow up a water tower or some sort of public monument.
The only reason I could think that planes are so attractive is that you only have to overtake several people and once you are in the cockpit, you are free to do whatever you want without revolt. Unless you have specific plans to use the plane (not just blow it up while its in flight) or hold the passengers hostage, it doesn't seem like a very great capture. I suppose one other advantage is that the terrorist doesn't have to worry about being stabbed to death with nail clippers that bystanders had on them since you can be sure the airport security took those all away.
friends of mine are flying home from UK to Australia soon. With two small kids. And under the restrictions, no kids toys. 18 hours with two kids and nothing to keep the occupied.
I suspect the rest of the plane would prefer a terrorist attack.
I arrived at Heathrow for an early flight to Frankfurt just as news was breaking for this at about 06:00. It was a tough decision to part with my laptop, PDA and mobile but I decided to take my chances. It only really then dawned on me the extent to which I depend on these items when I was waiting for hours to clear security... While I could have found a public payphone, all my phone numbers are stored in my mobile & PDA and I actually remember very few of them. I could speak to people, after somehow getting their numbers, but they could not call me back. All the usual channels that are normally avalable to me to get information about a delay were unavailable to me - no web access or even SMS messages to friends with access. You just have to stand in a queue like a sheep.
:)
I didn't take my flight in the end, despite it being one of the few that wasn't cancelled - when I finally got to the gate they still had an additional delay of over an hour and I was only due to be there one day. With half of it gone, and the prospects of being able to fly back to the UK this evening looking distinctly dubuious, I offloaded myself.
This was obviously an inconvenience for me, but I have nothing but praise for our security services who foiled this and the airport staff who managed to handle the whole thing pretty well, considering.
As has been reported, items allowed were limited to wallets/travel documents and baby/health-specific products. However, many of us brought books and papers with us also. Interestingly, Duty Free shops were open airside - although I didn't see if any electronics shops were. The focus this morning was really on what can be brought from landside to airside and they didn't seem to have thought about what you buy airside so much (although I would speculate that electronic items bought airside do not pose such a threat in that trrrsts would use pre-modified devices to detonate explosives). The search at security was a remove shoes, belts etc. job - rather like being in the US
It will be very interesting if this policy is made permanent. Like many companies mine has a policy of not putting laptops into checked luggage - for good reason. And when you are on the move much of the time you need your tools to keep productive - I've previously found time in the lounge or on board to be really valuable sometimes. However, I think in light of all the other ways that security can be compromised this can't continue as an indefinite measure - the risk:hassle/cost ratio is all wrong.
Prime Minister Tony Blair, vacationing in the Caribbean, briefed President Bush on the situation overnight, Blair's office said. There was no immediate public reaction from the White House. Bush is spending a few days at his ranch near Crawford, Texas.
Our leaders hard at work, as usual (:
Make everyone who boards an airplane eat a big greasy slice of bacon!!!
Wonder what they were planning to use? Pop Rocks and soda or the new hotness of Mentos and soda?
Some points:
1. The British authorities have a record of attempting to conjure 'terrorist threats' out of nothing in order to increase public support for unpopular foreign and domestic policy decisions.
2. If the UK really is under threat of "imminent attack" and there really is credible intelligence on which to base that belief, then shouldn't the PM be in the UK and not on a Caribbean beach?
One cannot be certain at this early stage that this is a mere PR exercise - but neither is it appropriate to suspend scepticism entirely. Especially given the track record of this goverment.
And, like with falsifying creationism, there is no way to be certain the plot was genuine -- at most, you can prove a given plot was staged up.
And, given the repeated circumstances in which plots that were "staged up" actually ended up in shredded bodies in London, Madrid, and elsewhere, you don't see people who have actually chosen their flights and are in possesion of actual explosives to be worth stopping?
In this case, I would rather believe the conspiracy theorists -- no sane intelligence agency would wait until the terrorists are about to board the planes.
As you've perhaps noticed, they were not walking up to or sitting down on airplanes at the time. They made the arrests before that stage, but only after they were comfortable with having as many of the people in the cell as possible accounted for. If they'd acted sooner, they may have lost more of the cell. There are thousands of variables at play here, and the number of people in intel and law enforcement that have to coordinate on such a thing (including the ones who have to be ready to capitalize on the international communications and other business that would have immediately erupted the moment this hit the news) is enormous.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
At the risk of being accused of covert racism, it's perhaps worth pointing out just how much of the UK government is controlled by Scots, from the Prime Minister down. The Scots have something of a reputation for violence and aggression, and if you want to point out that the Rt Hon Anthony Blair, MA, Barrister-at-Law is an upper class Scottish lawyer, it was just such an upper class Scottish lawyer that organised the Glencoe massacre, for his own advantage.
Actually, I think our police and security services on the whole do a pretty good job, especially outside London (where there is a lot of institutional corruption.) But they deserve better politicians.
Pining for the fjords
Think about it.
The captcha word for this message was "outstrip".
I didn't know that, though perhaps I might have guessed it. I presume it's the cold, reduced (Is cargo space pressurized?) pressure, or temperature cycling. Can you supply a link?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Personally, if I were a terrorist I'd want my attacks to fall around election time. I'd want every hawk running to get that political boost and better their chance to get elected. The terrorists need a Jihad, and the further they can draw America into a fight the further they advance towards their goal.
Mind you, it might actually serve some interests better for tens of millions of people to be worried, inconvienced, or annoyed than for airliners to explode.
Nah. They'd rather that the planes had exploded. That plays much, much better on Al Jazeera. This cannot be cited as a "victory" by the jihaddis backing it, and if they had knocked the planes down, they'd also have the extra inconvenience and worry, as frosting on that cake. No... this is a win for the good guys, and probably really frustrating to the backers that obviously put a lot of time and effort into recruiting all of these would-be suicide bombers, training them, supplying them, etc. You can bet that there are some pre-recorded Zawahiri video tapes that will now not be seeing airtime since this attack was stopped.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
The trick is to be a bit smarter...
That's exactly what they're doing. As I understand from the reports, groups of people are smuggling in seperate pieces of a device that they then assemble once past security. Each "ingredient" on it's own is seemingly harmless, with the possible exception of a single ingredient that several people will hold just in case one of them is grabbed.
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
Not necessarily: the UK government has been reducing our freedoms steadily for several years (removal of right to silence, reductions in rights to trial by jury, identity cards, tracking all car journeys etc etc). That's just the sort of thing that home secretaries say from time to time, to justify it all.
I think this will remind folks that the terror denying, cut and run, George Soros radical wing of the democrat party is a danger to America. The purging of such wild eyed conservatives Joe Lieberman makes the point.
This is not fear mongering. It is an imminent threat from islamic crazies.
an ill wind that blows no good
Until they find and display the liquid explosives, I will reamain somewhat scepticle. Most liquid explosives are unstable and heard to handle. It would not be the first time a minor detail like that turned out to be vapour ware.
willy
No hour on a horse is ever wasted. Winston Churchill
Honestly what is the goal behind terrorism? Has it done anything for their cause besides rain more crap down on the people they claim they are fighting for?
"no sane intelligence agency would wait until the terrorists are about to board the planes."
They would if they plan on getting convictions but you don't know they were arrested when they were just about to board the planes. All the reports I've read so far suggest they were arrested in their homes. Unless their homes are right on the runway, I don't see how you jump to the conclusion of "about to board the plane".
How ironic though. Isn't your post simply fear mongering with the goal of turning people against the government? Let's throw out a hypothetical conspiracy theory pulled straight from my ass and toss in my own armchair analysis of the events to make myself sound relevant.
Sigh, so now we'll all have to get the 3rd degree whether we're 8 year old kids or 82 year old grandmothers. I'll bet anybody on here a pint that every single suspect in the case is a Muslim male between the ages of 18 and 45, most likely of middle eastern descent, British born or not.
Why do my 60+ year old in laws have to suffer when they fly to visit us next week? For God's sake, put the political correctness down for a bit, let's be reasonable! I'm a 32 year old white/brown male with brown hair and brown eyes. When I fly alone, I expect to be scrutinized, it's normal, I won't be offended if they don't check the 82 year old grandmother behind me. They actually pulled Al Gore out of line to search his bags a couple of years ago! Come on!
Remember that movie "Airplane" from the 80's, there's a part where security is doing a full body search of an old lady while a group of sheiks in the white robes fly through, life immitates art.
Cynicism in the US is reaching an all-time high. Half the population blames the government or accuses it of conspiracy no matter what the government does. We need more effective ways of countering the enemy's FUD. We have multiple CSPAN channels broadcasting government live and embedded reporters and still most of the citizenry would rather read and believe tabloids, kooks and extremist blogs. Guess what, you are the government. You are the military. Look at the history of the world and realize that there ARE people who will kill you because they don't like your GOD or covet what you have or have been taught since childhood to hate you out of existence.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
So what is the chance that this is really
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's
promised August 22 "light in the sky".
It's so not-PC to blame Bush/Blair first,
but there it is.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Police_in_Britain_clai m_to_have_disrupted_a_terrorist_attack
In a war people must make sacrifices. Consider your bottle of Evian as one of them.
an ill wind that blows no good
What if governments were issuing fake terror alerts in order to advance their own agendas?
In the light of false arguments used for the War on Iraq or the Invasion of Lebanon by Israel are we supposed to believe what our governments say? Like when anti-virus companies saying there are virus for MacOSX. I don't buy it anymore.
What do you guys think?
but for some reason that isn't news
I've just stopped worrying.
Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKTsJpfC0IQ
I don't want to hear how the US targets innocents ever again.
From any news story or any terrorist group.
Yes, of course it's all a plot to sway us into voting republican!i .tape/index.html
It's not like Al Qaeda promised they would be performign majors attacks or anything like that..
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/27/zawahir
Sometimes there really are people out there who want to hurt us, they have done it many times before. We forget so quickly the attacks of the past and assume any new attack mentioned is a conspiracy.
What we need to do is cooperate with the authorities. If they are lying it will come out. So you have to buy shampoo when you land, big deal! At least you will be landing. Why do we get so mad about these minor inconveinces and delays. Would you rather they just didn't do anything and let anyone on a plane with any suspect item?
There is no threat today and there never was going to be one today. The significance of today is the police decided to swoop on the terrorists and round them up - http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/topstories /display.var.871220.0.21_held_in_liquid_bomb_plot_ to_blow_up_planes.php
You see yesterday, Communist John Reid our Home Secretary said there should be some more curbing of freedoms to deal with 'terror'.
So today we have the 'incident' that will enable him to introduce those new curbs.
Join the British National Party
We're at war with the Soviets^D^DTerrorists...
And we just has a glorious victory !
next up the 20 minutes of hate?
then back to work, business as usual..
We don't even need a war, just the illusion of one, thank you minitrue for real and complete reports of whats going on, and thank you miniplenty for lowering the oil prices to a historic low of 20$ pr gallon...
the current war on terror is quite like the war in 1984. Where the main purpose of the war was not to capture territories or resources, but rather to reduce the freedoms of the populaces. after the liberation of iraq, iraqies gained some and lost some, but people of the eu and us lost freedom. This victory will no doubt show that our forces are good and fine and great, and with more funding they'd be even better. now they have tightened airport security, most notably by requiring all carryons to be carried in clear plastic bags.
They're no doubt already discussing how to make security even better, as we speak. I'm not saying terrorism isn't real, but it's certainly been boosted since we started taking it seriously. I'm not saying the government is trying to take away your freedoms, but I do think they're forgetting what it is the silverware of civilisation that they're remoulding to shoot werewolves (monsters none of us really know much about). The governments are more worried about the deaths of a max. 5000 citizens the last five years, than meeting the big challenges we're facing (reducing bureaucracy, informing the intolerant, helping developing countries, improving pluralistic democracy, increasing education levels, getting humans to think)
So what if they kill a few of us, including some leaders, democracy is strong because it is NOT dependant on one person, but when too few cares, it becomes a defacto oligarchy.Blah blah sig blah blah blah irony blah blah
Yeah, but for this action to succeed, you need just a single department.
I'm not claiming that this particular plot was staged; but we have seen way too many similar plots in Russia and Poland to not suspect foul play. Most were done with skill -- but if you want a totally obvious example of a half-assed job, what about the gas pipeline from Russia to Georgia that got blown up this winter?
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Could this have happened just to make people believe that the security systems currently in use are efective,
therefore proving that the increase in security restrictions adopted since 9/11 attacks were necessary ?
Or even to justify granting more powers to law enforcing entities in the future ?
Smells just like this one. Problably just rallying support for iran/palestina etc. attacks.
Slashdot isn't and never has been a breaking news site. It's a site for discussing news that might be interesting to geeks. If you think Slashdot is a breaking news site then you will continue to be disappointed - that has never been the point of Slashdot.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Spoken like a true American. We tend to forget pretty quickly. Umm... remember this from October? Probably not. In fact, I couldn't remember any of the specific plots we foiled, other than Richard Reid (if we can even count the Brits acting on US intel as a win for us).
I think its more a cultural difference, though. American journalists like panic! blood! chaos! I bet you might remember the UNC student who ran down some of his fellow students, or the Muslim fellow in Seattle that shot 6 people (including a pregnant woman) attending synagogue, or the other guy that shot up El Al... Notice that we are enemy #2 (sandwiched between Israel and the UK), but of these, we've had the fewest terrorist acts in our country since 9/11. That means we are stopping attacks. The reason we only hear about failures and not successes is that our media doesn't report when our side wins, they only report catastrophes (I recommend Michael Crichton's State of Fear -- it's well researched and covers this and quite a few other topics).
Statistically 15 people have been murdered in the last 8 hrs in the USA... and by the end of today that number will be 45... 315 a week... but for some reason that isn't news
And agreed, it's sad that we disregard these statistics, but that's the nature of the animal. A random killing, which until discovered is pretty much anonymous (unless celebrities are involved) does not make any impact on us. However, massive, large-scale death and destruction do. This certainly qualifies. Add to that list: the number of people who die from wars in foreign countries (other than Lebanon and Iraq), those who die from disease (AIDS, cancer, etc.), and those who die on the highways every year. We become numb to it after a while.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
Given the histrionics and draconian measures... It would be frickin' genius if bin Laden would hatch a plot to hide explosives in a bra. "Remove your shoes. Toss that Starbucks down the sink! No bras allowed!"
The shoe thing has been a real treat for those TSA employees with foot fetishes, but we need some draconian bra-related measures for the rest of us.
Are we really more secure and free if we can't take a Diet Sprite on our flight to Cleveland?
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
They're spazzing here at the Indianapolis International Airport.
Anytime the morning shows (Today, GMA, etc.) break back to local coverage, it's about twenty-one people being arrested on the Heathrow side, a warning to anyone expecting to leave Indy [that] no liquids, not even hair gels will be permitted (except in checked-in luggage, and people are in some serious (and slow) lines to check this luggage after adjusting everything.
The other time consumer consists of people waiting to pick up all of their baggage.
It shouldn't be that big a deal, but because so many people typically have one or two carry-ons, or one carry-on, and one check-in, their travel pattern|philosophy is shot and they're out of their element.
Although they haven't stated as much, one gets the feeling there's an issue with binary solutions, not a singular.
One of the other issues is one of the items on the taboo list looks pretty much like baby formula.
Does this (no formula) mean kids can't ride and there won't be any screaming brats on our flights? (God can only hope)
Everyone should read this about a similar Al-Qaeda plot in the mid-1990's called "Bojinka", put together by an Al-Qaeda cell operating out of the Philippines and involving, among others, Ramzi Yousef (the first WTC bomber from 1993) and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (the 9/11 planner, both now in custody). It seems the plan was to smuggle a nitroglycerine-based explosive substance onto planes in contact lens solution bottles, then use a programmable watch to detonate it on the next leg of its route when it was in U.S. airspace (and after the bomb planters had disembarked). The information coming out of the U.K. today sounds eerily similar.
I'm surprised how many people have never heard about it The wingnuts on the radio this morning were talking like the terrorists were planning on using contact lens solution AS the explosive somehow. As usual, there is more bad information out there than good at the moment.
Yes, the cargo space is pressurized and mostly heated. That's where animals/pets travel. Wouldn't do to have Fluffy suffocated and freeze-dried.
Did they also find Mr. X???
Now, THAT would be impressive, what with his 2x and Black Tickets and all...
Checklist:
* Are there any elections upcoming in the UK?
* Is the UK involved in a war the government wants but the people don't?
* Is there any major, bad-publicity legislation that needs to be pushed through?
* Is any big and influential "security" company in need of a major government deal?
If any of these are Yes, I'll be a bit paranoid. If all of them are No, I'll believe in genuine evil terrorists.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
More people die of Cancer than AIDS, but we don't ignore AIDS because of that. A lot more people die of Heart Disease than AIDS, yet AIDS gets a lot more attention.
That's just plain ignorant. A Muslim from southeast Asia is likely to be Asian, not Arabic. Malasia and Indonesia for example have high Muslim populations. Just like lots of places in central Africa.
Learn the difference between religion and ethnicity.
If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
Actually thats not true; thats a myth spread by the media. There are a whole ton of governmental procedures that are keyed off the threat level. If you work in a government building in the US, there are a whole ton of procedures that kick in depending on the threat level. For example, bags might be searched in XYZ building at Orange but not at Yellow. Ditto for airports, trains and other infrastructure.
This is not to deny that its pretty silly for Fox News and the other networks to put the threat level on the bottom of the screen without explaining the meaning behind it. Though I'm sure that it gets them ratings.
Not always.
I found about about the 9/11 planes on slashdot, then turned on the TV to see what was happening, just in time to see the 2nd plane hit.
Why aren't you encrypting your e-mail?
I'm struggling to understand why on earth terrorists are still focussed on planes, with all teh security surrounding them now there seems little point even trying, getting explosives on board is largely pointless.
Why not attack coaches or such where there's no security and still a good 80+ people on board? Why not a shopping mall? A cinema? A nightclub?
I'm not trying to suggest they should attack these things of course I'm just trying to get my head around why these terrorists are supposedly going for the hardest target of all when they could get equal publicity/carnage elsewhere?
Is there some alternative goal to attacking aircraft, does an attack on aircraft supposedly have some additional terror factor? is it just to show they can get past even our best attempts at security (or apparently not in this case)?
I have to say unless it's one of the above I can only guess these people are EXTREMELY dumb, that or despite me not being one for conspiracy theories perhaps they do hold some weight? I just simply can't see any logic in an attack on the airways nowadays when there's so many easier targets out there.
And all the airports have been shut down less than a day after Tony Blair flew out on holiday... Hey! Maybe they won't let him back in! (You can always hope).
But then again, anyone think John 'Not fit for purpose' Reid and David 'Blind Man' Blunkett might be plotting a coup? Yeugh, that would be letting the terrorists win...
It doens't really matter (to me, at least) if the plots were fabricated by agencies or not. What matters is whether or not planes with innocent people on them are going to get blown up.
No. It will mean that all infants on board will be screaming non-stop. Ever heard a hungry (no, not cranky, _hungry_) baby cry ? You better bring earplugs. And hearing protection.
The Home Secretary was only yesterday calling for terror suspects to be exempt from protection under the Human Rights Act (so they can detain them indefinitely and can torture them in the UK - rather than flying them to Romania first) and that we, the public, should accept a "temporary" (READ: permanent) curb of personal freedoms as we are under attack!!!1!11!
Strange that this should happen just afterwards......
The trick is to be a bit smarter, and thinking ahead of the Ali BAbas, not reacting to reported threats in both over and under thorough ways.
I'd say that the fact these people were arrested before they even carried their explosives through airport doors is pretty good indication that their actions/plans are being anticipated and prevented. But that doesn't mean they've got every last possible bad actor on the radar screen. It's an incredibly difficult task to handle this in process - only advance intel is going to really deal with these larger, more sophisticated actions. But a single loon (like Richard Reid) is always going to be an issue, and until the latest flavor of carry-on threat is well understood, it's not like there's a lot of choice about whether or not to eyeball people coming on board with containers. The checked bags are subject to explosive sniffers and high-power x-rays, and a device already pre-configured to explode would presumable appear a little different than the sort of thing (as appears to be the case here) that's intended to be assembled in-flight by someone willing to die doing it.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
There was this story on Slashdot recently. May not apply to passenger aircraft, though...
If this terror plot was real, the terrorists must surely recognize that being discovered would result in delayed or cancelled flights, leaving thousands of people crammed into airports everywhere. Perhaps this was their real intention. Hopefully, nobody lets down their guard.
Good job on catching these scum!
Formula/Baby Food must be tasted by the parent/carer in front of security staff in the UK. I dunno if the same applies to US departures.
Correct. If they made the move to arrest the known terrorists today, it makes sense to tighten security today and for the next few days, in order to prevent any cell members they missed from going on with the plan in an "everyone I know has been caught so it really doesn't matter anymore" way. The logical next thing to do for a terrorist not arrested would be to get on a plane as quickly as possible and blow it up, so that at least not everything was in vain.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
* Am I moron?
Carry-on luggage is nothing but a total hassle for other passengers and crewmembers. I have seen people trying to stuff three-suiter suitcases in overhead bins and I have had my single small convention handout bag, which contained my eyeglasses, crushed when some assclown tried to stuff just one more over packed garment bag/steamer truck into the bin. Perhaps they could allow one small bag per passenger, limited to the size of a regular attaché case (and a purse counts toward the limit) -- and then strictly ENFORCE the limits.
The next problem I can see is people wearing vests with oversized pockets that will be sold specifically to circumvent the carry-on bag limit.
Another issue is that airlines have stopped serving meals and are encouraging people to carry their own lunches onto the plane. Perhaps seat 12C's cold drink is Binary Part A (which is reasonably safe to drink) and seat 20D's cold drink is Binary Part B (which is also reasonably safe to drink, although it tastes worse than Part A). The term "mystery meat" could also take on a whole new meaning when it is in a sandwich that is carried onto an airplane.
Given the fallout after the Menezes killing and the Forest Gate raid fiasco I don't think the UK government has much leeway to concoct something like this.
Politically the security services, and especially the London Metropolitan Police, need to get this one right. I'm pretty confident they think they're right on this one, although I don't have unlimited faith that they actually have, given previous mistakes.
This sig all sigs devours
I don't know whether it's true about this particular attack or not, but it seems highly likely that smart terrorists will now be attacking indirectly through security hysteria. If you blow up a few planes, a few people get killed or scared, but life goes on as normal. If you set up an elaborate plot to blow up stuff that almost works but is stopped at the last minute through a combination of tip-offs and heightened security... then you massively degrade the quality of life for citizens of your target country for years to come, due to the new restrictions. Travelling on an airplane just got even more hellish than it already was, which will frustrate and inconvinience people for years to come - and that's just the start of it. There will be more laws passed as a result of this, 'cracking down' on terrorists and innocents alike. The terrorists are being successful in setting the government and security staff against the citizens of their target countries. Corruption inevitably increases as the government gains power, morale is low, and our way of life is generally disrupted. If the terrorists want to make us stop starting wars in their country then this will eventually erode our ability or interest in doing so (as we'll be too concerned with fighting our own government); if they just hate us for religious reasons then they're making good progress at making us suffer. If I were a terrorist, I would keep doing this - and also branch out into randomly attempting to hit rail, road, and sea links.
Anarchist cookbookb
Marlow bottom? The other side of the hill? Spare us the details next time.
How is this a Slashdot story??
News are saying that 21 people have been arrested, and 9/11 death toll was 2976 people (according to wikipedia, other sites I saw gave similar numbers). To attain this number, each of the 21 attackers would have to kill 2976/21 = 141 people per plane, which seems reasonable. That, of course, is assuming only 1 attacker per plane... Wouldn't it be more probable that there were at least 2 attackers per plane? In that case, killing 283 people per plane seems too much... Which might indicate that not all the attackers are under custody.
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Thanks for having our backs.
Now... more pics of Keeley Hazell please.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Why not? -- they're giving advice on Windows updates.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
This happened on Deputy PM John Prescott's watch. "Tony Blair is beginning his delayed holiday to the Caribbean ... While Mr Blair is away, Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott is expected to take control of the day-to-day running of the country." - BBC 8/8/6
... On a Plane".
So I'm waiting for further evidence before deciding whether this is a real threat or just "security theater".
But we better hope the ban on hand luggage works, because the next step for John Prescott could be really scary: "Naked
Reduce, reuse, cycle
The terrorists don't even have to be successful anymore. As long as they scare the shit out of everyone, they get their point across. And instead of the media (US) trying to calm fears and provide decent analysis they just throw gasoline on the fire. Meanwhile the government is all for fear-mongering since it equates into more power.
What happened to the only thing we have to fear is fear itself?
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
If you're blowing yourself up anyway, you don't give a damn about long-term poisonous effects.
I think you could make an explosive that is not a fast poison. If it is foul-tasting and you make a funny face, oh well... people do that with baby formula and saved breast milk too.
Basically: suspend a powdered high-explosive in something thick and colorless, like glycerin. (a powdered oxidizer should work well too, but I can't think of one that wouldn't be a fast-acting poison)
Sheesh... how hard is that?
Probably you could make an explosive mouse pad or keyboard rest.
No more waiting FOREVER for the douchebags who refuse to check luggage to heave their crap out of the overhead compartments! This should aid in the speed of boarding and exiting the plane considerable.
Of course, on a trans-atlantic flight, that one book had best be a thick one!
Blar.
Are they looking for snakes?
Just think... What would happen if you were 30,000 feet in the air and there were SNAKES on your plane!?!?!?
This guy had a lot more interesting things to say than me, but we happened to post at about the same time so i missed it.
This guy needs to be heard.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
- It costs less than a plane ticket
- Takes less time than a plane, door to door
- I can use electronic devices at all times
- I can smoke whatever I want
- I can stop and go look at things (or pee on them)
- the seats are (slightly) more comfortable
Usually my SO and I share the driving time, which makes it less of a burden. Plus, when we get to Boston we don't need to rent a car, just a place to put it =_)(Also, I'd like to say that the Pittsburgh airport is a comedic joke, and so is USAirways.)
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
Forgot this one: also, not to mention the subsequent myths about flight crews raping passengers during flights.
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
I guess life won't be complete until we have a website for paranoid fucks like the OP to go to and post their paranoid questions. Which give me an idea...
the correct response when a person questions and disagress with their government on policy matters is to lobby for change, work to get it altered, bitch about it to raise awareness, etc. The stupid mouth breather redneck response is to tell them to move. Like in the nam days, a lot of people were against the war. The redneck response was bumperstickers, like this famous one "if you don't [picture of heart] america get your [picture of a donkey] out".
Lame then, lame now. Disagreeing with the government on issue x,y or z doesn't mean you still can't love your country and want to see it fixed.
In other words, you are a stupid redneck. Why don't you grow up, try working puzzles or something to increase your IQ, and maybe take a laxative.
Why in Osama's name do this discussion happens on /. ?
Because of the "stuff that matters" part of the slogan ? Hey, why not talk about Lebanon then ? Or maybe Chechnya ? Or My grand-aunt that broke her ankle walking on a banana peel placed in front of her home by 9-year old terrorist ?
Jeez, I read 10 online newspapers every day, and I come here expecting not more of the same, but frickin' discussions about tech matters...
I believe that this is true, but I expect all emphasis to be similarly scaled up for effect. In this case, "we need more surveillance powers".
Wikileaks, no DNS
Terrorist goal achieved, fear and a distraction
Will the new restrictions make *you* feel any safer to fly? Will it do anything more than increase the pain of travel?
The results...
1. the bad guys will find another way to (threaten to) blow up aircraft - just a matter of time
2. while we fly in fear (the terrorists goal is achieved remember), other attackers will find a way to attack via some other medium while much effort is focused on the air industry
Papers Please.
Yes, but whats that got to do with the price of tea in D'ni?
It'd be fun having the job of testing this, don't you think?
You could load yourself up with government-supplied explosives, walk through, get caught, show your papers, and then go to the next line and try it again.
It's probably too much time traveling though.
Damn that would be fun.
Considering that it only takes two to four days to cross the ocean on a ship, it is well worth considering as an alternative to the fascist treatment you get when flying. Be nice to yourself!
Which third world country was it necessary to bomb in order to avert this plot?
It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
No, not them. They hide the liquids in their tits.
(do they still have to have security guards watch them taste it?)
What the hell does this have to do with technology, computers or anything nerdy?
My god, talk about selling out!
He wasn't fleeing anyone. He walked slowly all the way, until he got into the recently arrived carriage and sat down comfortably into the first available seat. Then the police stormed in and shot him.
He wasn't wearing a bulky jacket but jeans, he didn't have wires protuding, he didn't jump over the underground ticket machines, he didn't even run from anyone.
The police killed an innocent man and they got away with it.
n/t
With those statistics, maybe it's a War on Stairs and Wobbly Ladders we need instead of this bogus War on Terrorism.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
A friend of mine flew home shortly after 9/11 from the UK and was told to check his laptop. It was stolen from checked luggage. The really funny part was when the baggage people at SFO told him he shouldn't have checked his laptop.
They tell us to check things like laptops and such and the ease with such things are stolen somehow indicates to me that checked luggage is nowhere near safe. Why don't they just tell people not to travel on business. Because I'm sure the airlines need another huge-ass bailout...
What really annoys is that this was a liquid-fuel plot supposedly. Why the hell then is my laptop all of a sudden an issue? This thing doesn't exactly run on fuel cells.
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
Its the new one right... where is the old one?
Never heard of flash paper?
Regular paper explodes just fine if treated with nitric acid.
You could fill the cover with explosives.
But this is silly: you could more easily fill your butt with explosives, then take a trip to the lavatory.
A bunch of terrorists will rent an Ryder or UHaul truck, fill it to the brim with whatever explosives they can conjur up (probably nitrogen bombs), and drive it into a tunnel or bridge and blow it up. It's nearly impossible to stop.
This time around, they might have something; while the cynical part of me is, well, cynical, it appears they disrupted something pretty major. Which is good.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Unfortunately the government will now use this incident to push through stronger and more draconian laws that will ultimately reduce peoples privacy ... and, like the lemmings the general population are, they will accept this reasoning and stand by and watch their cival liberties fall by the way side.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
nitro glycerin
clear, syrupy, probably odorless, non-volatile, and no matches required
Only if you voted democrat the other day.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Funny, I looked at all those long lines at the security check points and my thought was, if I am a terrorist and my plot to blow up an airplane has been foiled, why don't I blow up my bomb at one of the security checkpoints. That would freak people as much.
I just recently heard of such a case. It was a home invasion. The lady obeyed, and was killed. The man ran, got hit, kept running, and lived.
Most criminals can't shoot very well.
No shit sherlock! We've heard about this like 10 hours ago!
Since it's pretty clear both MI5 and the CIA have been involved in most of the terrorist schemes as of late, who caught these guys? Some other branch that wasn't actively busy in planning false flag operations? Rogue bad-asses that don't follow orders? Is this just yet another publicity stunt by government officials that are keen on keeping the populace in a virtual panic?
Or are there really a group of psychotic fundamentalists that "hate our freedom" in conjunction with the obvious inside job teams that also do so much damage to the economies and civilians of both countries?
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
They new at all over two years ago when they made me to pour out wisky from my flask while boarding on ferry to the Statue of Liberty.
"We hope that these measures, which are being kept under review by the government, will need to be in place for a limited period only," the statement said.
Interesting choice of words. To me (currently in paranoia mode) in reads like "We will see if the public puts up with these measures (already) before we decide if we want to make them permanent."
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I've been doing this for years now.
Avoid the hassle of flying by taking all your luggage and carry on stuff you would normally take on the flight, and box it up. Drop it off at the nearest Fedex or UPS to be shipped to your destination.
Get a cab to the airport and be sure to have nothing but folding money (use any coins you happen to collect in change for tips), your cell phone (in case of emergency), of course, your ID (you have papers, no?) and a plain paperback book. Take a credit card if you feel it's necessary. Wear comfortable, simple clothes (with a pocket for your stuff- no bags!) and shoes that you can slip on and off without using your hands.
Be sure to feel sorry for all the other poor slobs who have to have their bags inspected as you breeze through security. Then feel sorry for them again as they wait for baggage claim.
Downsides to this method? It costs a bit more, but well worth it. It makes flying virtually stress-free.
You'll lose potentially productive hours in flight where you could have been working on something. So take a nap and stay up later. If you can't sleep and get bored, use that silly little lump of grey matter in your head. Get creative and make up some mind games you can play with yourself. How many friends can you remember in your life? When are their birthdays? What's the square root of my birthday? Is the price of gold related in any way to the fed interest rate? How would I go about figuring that out? Can I make-up and memorize a poem with more than 20 lines? seriously, we're supposed to be the creative ones. If we can't even entertain ourselves, we might as well be robots.
--------------------
Buy a gun for your kids today! http://www.backyardartillery.com/
"We" are the government? What the hell are you talking about?
Sure, Americans go through the motions of "democratic elections" every four years or so. Of course, only a fraction of the eligible voting population actually bothers to vote. So immediately there is 40-50% of the population out of the picture.
Of the remaining half, many have no idea whatsoever about politics or international relations. Their only exposure comes from seeing a news clip on their local FOX affiliate station between quarters of an NFL game. The clip likely shows some Republican talking about "terruhists hatin' yer freedums". It's doubtful that most of these people could locate the general region of the Middle East on a map, let alone nations like Iraq and Lebanon.
There is a very, very small percentage of the population who could actually run for office, let alone get elected. This population group consists of the most wealthy in America. That's not surprising, considering the cost of partaking in an election campaign.
Between those who don't vote, those who vote but have no idea about anything besides football, and the only candidates with any hope of being elected being rich and of the highest reaches of society, basically all Americans are left out of the loop. It's no wonder that many don't trust their government: it's made up of people that are nothing like them, of people who have no reason to care for them, and of people who often go out of their way to make things difficult for most people.
As for the military, today it is mostly made up of the poor and the ignorant. The poor join so that they can hope to get their college tuition paid for, or just because they have no skill of value besides acting as cannon fodder. Yhe ignorant join because they want to "shoots us up some ay-rab talibans". It's no wonder a place like Iraq is in so much turmoil; the stupidest, most ignorant Americans possible were sent there to "fix it up". At least WWII and its aftermath involved some of the American middle class. Things turned out fairly better when you didn't have complete morons doing the work.
So, no travel pillow? Eyemask? Saline spray to prevent nosebleeds? Low-carb sports drinks to prevent dehydration- and to not get the runs from airlines' water?
But, really, for this we should talk about the children. Most flights I've been on recently have had kids-- generally quiet kids, busy with the familar toys and snacks their smart parents brought to distract them. It's usually only the newbie flyers who don't bring a favorite fruit drink to keep the kid's ears from popping during descent. Except now every parent is going to be a newbie, because the usual drink tricks will be pulled away. Seems like now the TSA is only allowing baby foods- if unsterilized by the parent's tasting it. Great, so the under-2 set is covered. Have they never heard a 4 year old in a full tantrum? Are the parents supposed to figure out which of 1. Sugar-apple-water, 2. diet Pepsi, or 3. Starbuck's Frappochino is going to best quiet their thirsty kid? ('Course the answer is 4. juice with vodka.)
And things like medicines- most people want to carry their supply on them. Spending the first 24 hours of your vacation trying to replace a prescription? Not so easy.
Of course, right now all our decisions and reactions will be driven by anger and fear. The problem comes when authorities decide that every decision made today must be good. Sturgeon's Law applies no matter how good your motivations: but the stronger your emotional motivation the less likely you are to review your decision later, when calm.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I wasn't involved in the debate. People deliberately avoiding English spellings in favor of foreign spellings is just a pet peeve of mine.
I understand the situation and DHS has to do something to ensure security. But simply banning stuff that discovered could be a security threat is INSANE! My point is, all the banning rules post 9-11 aren't all neccessary since airport securities are already checking each carray-on luggage fro every passenger, why still ban it if you still check it all? The regular good citizens are gonna be suffered from the inconveniences. I know alive is way better than dead, but I am still not convinced how much more secure but enforcing the banning rules.
I had a weird dream last night that it bothers me that all contact lens are banned during the flight because god damn terrorists are utilizing that as a way to jerpordizing our fligth security. I know it sounds stupid, but you get the idea. Just like someone said from NJ.com forum, 'At this rate by 2010 we will all be flying naked.'
"Will the new restrictions make *you* feel any safer to fly?"
You bet they will! If the only way can smuggle a quart of liquid explosives onto the plane is in a "Body Cavity" surely the resulting "Herbal Essences" commercial impersonations from the lavatory will give them away.
Fear isn't always a bad thing and it may just save your life one day. It could even make someone think less passively about those other mediums you mention.
Kudos to Scottland Yard!
I'm just here for the Bud Light.
The deal is we have been playing fast and loose with the problem for decades. Terrorism didn't just pop up its ugly head, its been there. The difference is that we haven't been the targets so we all just blithely walked around pretending it didn't matter.
//marines// knew they put themselves in danger, not a real problem
All those poor athletes in the Olympics, not us, so its not a problem.
Hijacking planes and killing one or two passengers, again, not us, only a few, not a problem.
Blowing up a barracks full of marines, not really us, they
Blowing up a few embassies, again, not really us, not a real problem, its over there
Blowing up some discos overseas, again, their problem, not ours.
Crashing some planes in NY skyscrapers. Oh boy, what? There are terrorist out there? Never have been any before, must be Bush's fault. etc etc etc
The fact is that five years has allowed us to start questioning all those inconvienences we suffer before we ignored the issue before it bit us in the butt the first time. Yeah, they government is over stretching their limits. But this discussion is about flying restrictions and your trying to drag unrelated issues into the conversation at hand. So while I think the PI stinks I don't think it has anything to do with the issue at hand.
Face it, you fly, you ride up top and everything else, provided its insepcted for safety flies below. Don't like it, drive. Its not a right. Take a ship, but be prepared to go through the same process soon as they are going be targets next especially if we make getting an airplane even more difficult.
The damn annoying fact is that they don't care. They want us dead and they are going to try over and over and over. Bitching about the inconvience they cause is what they want. If we bitch enough someone will back down in government and our guard will drop. Drop enough and another plane goes up in smoke.
Face it, we cannot be free in a world where you don't do what is necessary to ensure that freedom. That does mean getting rid of the lunatics who use your freedom, and racial guilt to keep theirs, against you. We are going have to profile everywhere soon. Sorry, but if your from a country where known terrorist come from you should damn well expect the scrutiny. If you don't like it then CLEAN UP YOUR EFFING COUNTRY. Quit exporting your shit to us.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I have to travel for work sometimes. I have a work-issued laptop I have to bring.
Taking Northwest as an example-- the maximum luggage reimbursement allowance (what they'll pay you if they lose or break your stuff) is $2800. That's not enough to cover the laptop, let alone a suit or two and my precious, precious t-shirts. You can buy extra coverage for $1 per $100 of extra value, but even that has a maximum value cap at $5000.
A new laptop, a decent camera or PDA, and a couple of suits put you over that mark. The average business traveller is suddenly unable to even GET enough coverage for the luggage they're required to check. And heaven help you if you're like my coworkers who sometimes have to bring a pair of laptops with them-- you'll lose thousands if they lose or damage your luggage.
Given how they treat checked luggage, I'd be backing up important files onto the biggest SD card you can afford, and cramming it in your wallet.
I mean this looks like a PR release to me. One of the tasks of the police is to protect the citizens and prevent them to become uneasy. While releasing this information to the public shows that the police is doing its job, it also injects some fear into the population. And we all know that fear leads to power.
...Together, they created today's nightmare vision of a secret organized evil that threatens the world, a fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and authority in a disillusioned age. And those with the darkest fears became the most powerful...
To quote from 'The Power of Nightmares':
Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
In that event, "Terror" has won.
Right now, there are people in the world that want to kill you. These people are fanatics. They're fanatics of the worse kind .... religious fanatics. They're intelligent. They have money. They have resources. They're determined. They don't care if they die ... and they're very very patient.
... or do die trying. Either way they believe they will receive the reward of eternal paradise.
Their goal is to bring the entire world under Islamic law
How do you fight an enemy like that? They will never stop trying to kill us. We say negotiations, they hear appeasement. We say peace plan, they hear surrender. We say peaceful coexistence, they plot to grow their numbers and their strength while we're wallowing in our own political correctness.
There is only one way to address radical Islam, and that is to completely and absolutely destroy it. We seek the Islamofascists throughout the world. We locate them, and then we destroy them.
WAKE UP!!!!!
Honestly what is the goal behind terrorism?
This is a tough question, and I'm glad somebody is asking it. My thoughts haven't spent much time on your specific question, although I have often thought about the question of why is it that somebody becomes a terrorist.
The best answer I can come up with is simple desperation. If you are living a life where you see children beggin in the streets and starving to death, you tend to get pretty upset. Now, imagine that you are witnessing a world where poverty abounds, despite the fact that the land you're living on is incredibly rich of natural resources (ie, oil).
Meanwhile, the people that are using your resources have so much wealth that the problem of starvation has been replaced by the problem of obesity.
I don't know about you, but that kind of observation would make me pretty damn pissed off. If you take this anger and mix it in with a long history of conflicting social / political / religious ideologies, add a bit misguided leadership, and mix well, I'm not surprised that there are terrorists out there in the world.
You want real security in the world? Try creating global equality. Don't give up freedoms, give up the notion of cheap gas, or cheap imported goods. Live a simpler life so that people in developing nations can afford the same standard of living that you can.
Unfortunately, I don't hear anybody saying these things. Instead, I hear how we have to be strong and clamp down, "smoke them out."
What happens then? Conditions get worse for the already desperate, creating more possible terrorists, which creates more of a clampdown, which creates worse conditions, etc.
This plan, the Underground bombs, the Bali bombing, and so on, is directly connected to UK support of bloodthirsty, aggressive and morally unsupportable US foreign policy (more than 5 decades of it). Reap what you sow -- and as long as US-made bombs (Lebanon, most visibly) and bullets fall around the world, and Orwellian doublespeak conceals this root cause, so will retaliation be inspired.
you had me at #!
Trumped up nonsense, generatetd by our "gurdians".
:-)
And the U.S. will have t' do without toothpaste, emulating the dental characteristics that make us in the UK world famous.
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
Subject says it all.
Replies are welcomed.
There was this story on Slashdot recently. May not apply to passenger aircraft, though...
There isn't often that much difference between passenger aircraft and fright aircraft. Plenty of freighters were originally supplied as passenger carriers later converted to freight only.
On short trips, I never check my bags, because, given the quality of airlines in the US, I'm guaranteed luggage loss on one leg of the trip (but they strive for both). Now I'm not allowed fluids? Hair gel, shampoo, mouthwash, toothpaste, and my ever-present bottle of water? I'm pissed. Everything about airlines in the US sucks, and this is the icing on the cake. I want to be done with them.
Does anyone know of a website that allows Cesna owners, etc... and potential passengers to arrange small flights without this kind of bullshit? Do I just have to learn to fly and buy a fucking plane? I'm tired of it, and I'm serious.
The BBC is reporting evacuations in High Wycombe linked with the plot, and he has people there. Since there were arrests in High Wycombe, I'd speculate the police are concerned about potential explosive dangers from an arrested suspect's home, so the evacuations are probably localized (as in neighboring houses.)
/. with your turdly comments because you can't be arsed to read the posted link? I wish I was surprised.
Snarling up
Very well said.
As you've perhaps noticed, they were not walking up to or sitting down on airplanes at the time. They made the arrests before that stage, but only after they were comfortable with having as many of the people in the cell as possible accounted for. If they'd acted sooner, they may have lost more of the cell.
It also gives them better evidence to get actual convictions (as opposed to life in Gitmo without trial), and, depending on where they sprung the trap (I do not know the details) it may have dramatically increased their ability to control the situation - an airport is a much easier environment to control than, say, all of London.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Get your numbers straight matey.
It is very easy for you to dismis such a thing, for us foreingers living in the UK sometimes it is a real drag to get out of bed when one see the incompetence and racial bias of the UK police.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I don't know why I didn't think of that. You are absolutely right.
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
I think all passengers should be stripped completely naked and after a suitable anal probe chained into their seats. I think this is the only reasonable way we can stop terrorists.
I like how you snipped the part of my post to enable the flame. You know, the part where I said "which is good." But hey, you got to call someone a dumb ass today. I hope you feel better, and don't worry, with people skills like you have, your life will be looking up in no time.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Couple months away from an election in the US, so here we go again. Guess this story didn't have enough of an impact so we need a bigger scare, mm?
/ Learned to stop asking "Are people really this stupid?" a long time ago...
Liberty in your lifetime
Your initial reply was childish, idiotic and completely uneccessary and unimaginative.
What one would expect from somebody that feeds his news needs from the worst tabloid media.
I exsuce the other guy for briniging in to question your IQ, your initial response showed very little in the brains department.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Gee, all the hallmarks of an Al-Qaida attack. What? An airplane and people who aren't Christian and it's suddenly Al-Qaida? What do you want to bet it's a bunch of guys who have been talking about doing something in a hookah bar? Connections to "worldwide terror"? Right... Shocking how little "news" there is here--the only thing they are saying is 21 people, a "plan" to use liquid explosive on a plane. That's it. And suddenly the US administration is pointing to it as winning the war against Al-Qaida and the "war on terror". Politics here--nothing to see--move on.
"Have you not considered how much easier it is to control a walking population?" - Moneo Atreides.
How again does invading unstable countries make use safer?
Someone please explain how perpetuating the "american invaders" view could make us safer.
We are disliked because of our invasion, control, and arms supply to the region.
How can more invasions, more control. and more arms to israel us earn friends?
Of course, there's absolutely no evidence that this is true; any evidence that exists is either classified or simply not yet available. It's entirely possible that the threat is overblown or even manufactured. Convicting someone in an entirely public trial with all evidence on the table will go a long way toward establishing the credibility of the governments' allegations, but even then I'll have my doubts. After all, as London's Deputy Police Commissioner is quoted as saying, "This is about people who are desperate ... who want to do things that no right-minded citizen of this country or any other country would want to tolerate." He's right: it's about government officials desperate to remain in power and desperate to place yet more abominable and, in the US, unconstitutional, restrictions on everyone in these formerly free countries.
Note also the bit about having to drink any baby milk - previously held to be only an urban legend
Of course, terrorists don't drink unhealthy substances in the last hours before a suicide attack.
Trust me, I work for the government.
Yes, if a subset of some group of people sees, "We can get wonderful subsidies from the richer nations by launching a few terror strikes to bring their humanitarian attention to our people," what will they do? We gave some pretty wonderful humanitarian subsidies to North Korea when they made a nuclear threat. What did they do next? Why, they made an even bigger nuclear threat, built some missiles, and shared their technologies with friends like Iran.
Contrarily, if a subset of a population goes terrorist, perhaps what we should do is not provide rewards to the entire population, but treat it as Israel is treating Lebanon. There were plenty of terrorists in the past, for instance in the 19th Century. They were invariably treated harshly. Did their organizations prosper by the harsh treatment bringing in new recruits? How many 19th Century terrorist organizations are around today? Pretty close to none.
People are generally rational enough not to engage in activities which will bring on hardship and death for most of their friends and relations. People are also rational enough, and cold enough, to do evil things if the end result is an improved situation for their friends and relations. So the first world has to do two things: (1) Richly reward any third-world movements that follow the examples of Gandhi and MLK; (2) Treat any populations which harbor terrorists with utmost severity. There is no profit in letting them play to our conscience unless they show one of their own.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
These provisions are supposed to be temporary - lets hope they remain that way but I'm not going to hold my breath. I don't think its hard to make explosives by mixing liquids together. When I was in high school back home in India, we had complete access to a whole range of chemicals in lab, we didn't use gloves, goggles or a lab coat, and we didn't have to ask anybodys permission to enter it, take what we wanted, and mix them together. Even with dilute high school quality chemicals we could make simple explosives, and did for shits and giggles. We even had a helpful chemistry textbook to warn us about mixtures that were volatile. The benefits of a CBSE education in a private school. We were incredibly stupid. I look back at that time and marvel that I have all my fingers, though I do have a friend who is almost deaf in one year as a result of his fooling around. That particular bang cracked a large inch thick cement flower pot, and was in a bloody 500ml beaker. It is not hard to believe that with access to stronger chemicals you could make lethal explosives. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of people with the will to blow up other people. So yes the threat is credible. Worse despite this success I don't think that security forces can change, move and keep up with the technology to counter terrorists without instituing a police state. Lots of people have pointed out that terrorists could just as easily bomb buses/trains/discos/sporting events whatever. There seems to be no way to protect everyone at everyplace. I'm pretty certain most of us /.ers don't want a police state. Increased isolationism isn't much of an answer. Killing the terrorists doesn't seem to work unless you listen to the "nuke them all" crazies and frankly I'm more scared of them than the terrorists. Giving your entire population military training seems like an even worse idea, because you just trained a whole bunch of extremists in the process. In an ideal world we could teach everyone to play nice and they would. And there would be unicorns.
Theres something very badly wrong with our global political system. I don't know how to change it but I think we are seeing the first cracks in it. I'd suspect that addressing the crazy disparities in quality of life would help matters a lot. There really is no short term fix. You need better education, you need a population whose size reflects the resources that are available. You need to have people recognize that their identity is human, not national, not religious, not political. I'm not being idealistic - I recognize how very incredibly hard this is, and how very incredbly long this is going to take. I think the problem with what we currently have is that yes things are bad but theres not much hope for things getting better even. If we don't move in that direction I'd guess we are just going to see a more polarized world with different blocs of disgruntled people blowing up each other, for causes they believe are just or for retribution.
Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
The plot sounds very similar to Operation Bojinka - a large scale attack on US bound airliners financed by Osama bin Laden in 1995. Luckilly this was thwarted as well; with pre-9/11 security and civil liberties in place mind you.
Airports are already an extra hour out of your day to get IN so you can wait for typically another hour. This is if you can remain at peak efficiency - no checking of luggage, everything's already in your jacket pockets to speed through security, etc etc.
Additionally, that hour or two of downtime (when the inevitable delay happens, I get to fly into/out of Chicago O'Hare which delays flights if a bird shits in a mile radius of the airport) can be productive if I have my computer. Now, however, that's not an option.
In fact, the entire travelling time is wasted. And guess what - companies still expect you to bill X hours, so now you're screwed out of another 2 hours when you land. Maybe more, depending on the reliability of the flight.
This is disregarding any sort of lost luggage. Which does happen. And sometimes you're not on an expense report; I'm an independent contractor now so I bite the bullet on any sort of incurred costs in travel.
It's not one of these "gee it's a minor inconvenience, suck it up". It's a major inconvenience for many road warriors, and a chunk of them are frustrated and pissed. Walk a mile in a man's shoes, etc.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
"Note also the bit about having to drink any baby milk - previously held to be only an urban legend http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/milk.htm. Fiction becomes reality."
Well that's better than rubbing baby oil on yourself.
bombs, that's what I expect to be invented during the next decade.
:-)
An absolutely new aspect of atomic boobs.
An implanted bomb should be hardly discoverable through the detection of volatile substances.
So the only way to detect it would be an x-ray or mrt or similar at the gate.
These images could then be used for health screenings, thus terrorists would help to increase the public health
k2r
An air traveler from Europe to the US is discussing their take on these developments at Daily Kos.
--
make install -not war
Nothing to worry about. Scotland Yard is just taking precautions against AOL users #2690, #39006, #47865, and #101776 - #101779.
Spain was targetted because the then President of the Spanish government, Jose Maria Aznar (whose party members have a rosy view of the period of the dictatorship under the fascist general Francisco Franco) was second poodle to Mr Bush. We all know who was the big poodle.
Al Qaueda in all its madness has mostly stuck to attack interests of their named enemies.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"If the bad guys are supposed to be hand-carrying liquid explosives, what's to prevent them from putting the stuff in their checked luggage?"
The same thing that's stopped this from working for the last 50 years. Plots to blow up planes weren't invented in the 21st century.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Interesting that you haven't been modded at all yet, I guess you posted a bit late.
1. The root causes you describe are IMHO correct. I could ramble on about the GINI coefficient (a measure of the distribution of income) and it's correlation to violent crime and war. Trust me, I wrote 65 pages on it.
2. However I don't' believe that the solution you propose is the only, the best or even a workable solution. We know that communism doesn't really work to well, even though there isn't a single real communist country in the world (ala Marx).
3. Ivory tower notions of equality of peoples across the world in representation, ability and wealth are at best ludicrous and at worst dangerous. Instead of looking at the issue purely as humanitarian; i.e. they starve and beg, let's look at it from a cost vs. benefit direction. If I may repeat your argument as I see it from another angle...
If the people who are so exploited have nil chance of being elevated from their situation, then they have little to loose and much to gain by grabbing at power/money/wealth by any means necessary. The only way to gain back that wealth and power is to force those who exploit them to surrender it. Exploited persons can't afford to strike, may don't have the ability to vote, and the foreign interests in their country certainly aren't going to just give them up. Lacking the ability to have a voice at the bargaining table or to make policy they have to do something to shift the paradigm. Guerilla warfare, revolution and terrorism are the only methods they have to make the vastly more potent exploiters reconsider their involvement and allocation in the area. This is how the States won Independence, don't let the revisionist histories fool you, we were really squirrelly, but not quite as mobile.
4. The solution that I believe would work is one that has been used fairly successfully for a long time. Those with the power to do such things change the method of compensation. Instead of simply paying for the oil rights in an area, build a park, a school, a (gasp) mosque. Don't just rape the underclass. Make involvement in their lives not strictly negative, while you get fat. Everyone can profit.
As for the ethnic conflicts...
um... buy them a Coke?!
Just my humble opinion.
"WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
"A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledgehammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic."
"Your worst enemy, he reflected, was your own nervous system. At any moment the tension inside you was liable to translate itself into some visible symptom."
"Only a person thoroughly grounded in Ingsoc could appreciate the full force of the word bellyfeel, which implied a blind, enthusiastic acceptance difficult to imagine today."
In Operation Northwoods, terrorist attacks were going to be used as a pretext for war.
Does this (no formula) mean kids can't ride and there won't be any screaming brats on our flights? (God can only hope)
It's worse than that. They're also only letting the parent bring on ONE diaper. So you'll get screaming AND smell. Yay.
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
not at the gate. So I suspect you'll still be free to pay inflated airport prices for your food and water and bring that on. Along with toothpaste and the mass of other stuff they sell in airports behind the security barricaide these days. Good thing the people that work in airport vending areas are subject to thorough searches, along with all packaged products being delivered. Oh wait...
Terrorists have not bombed planes recently, certainly not in 9/11.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Oh and he wasn't innocent. An illegal alien is a criminal under british law. So far most people would not agree that they should be shot on sight but if you want the truth you need to be able to face the whole of the truth.
Live is though, wear a bullet proof vest.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Locking the carry-on bins for the duration of flight would solve the problem of somebody using a modified/disguised electronic detonator while making it possible to safely carry laptops, PDAs, etc -- given how dependent modern business travelers are on these devices, I just don't think the airlines are going to able to stay in business if they don't come up with a solution that accomodates them.
Of course, this wouldn't do jack against a timer that requires no human intervention during the flight, but then neither does the carry-on ban (the timer device would work just as well in checked baggage -- either way, it's a matter of sneaking it through).
This would also enable people to carry their toiletries and a change of clothes for when their luggage gets lost, though they'd still be out of luck for inflight food and drink.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
What is the third world anyway? Is pakistan the third world? Most paki's I know would object strongly to that term.
Also these people were born in britain. Is britain the third world now?
Oh but you want simple platitudes. See the world in black and white. Don't let me disturb you.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Mod parent +60, Graduated College and Thinks Criticaly Rather Than Assuming Everything is a Government Plot to Get His Weed
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Makes me feel that these anti-terrorism organizations are doing they're homework and that Al-Qaida likes to re-use/re-hash previously attempted plots. From the wiki page : Operation Bojinka, partly planned by Ramzi Yousef, an Al-Qaida member:
"....involved at least five Al-Qaeda operatives, including Yousef, Khan, Shah and two more unknown operatives. Starting on January 21, 1995 and ending on January 22, 1995, they would set the bombs on 11 United States-bound airliners that had stopovers all around East Asia and Southeast Asia. All of the flights had two legs. The bombs would be planted inside life jackets under seats on the first leg, when each bomber would disembark. He would then board one or two more flights and repeat. After all of the bombers planted bombs on all of the flights, each man would then catch flights to Lahore, Pakistan. The men never needed U.S. visas, as they only would have stayed on the planes on their first legs in Asia.
United States airlines had been chosen instead of Asian airlines to maximize the shock toward Americans. The flights targeted were listed under operatives with codenames: "Zyed", "Majbos", "Markoa", "Mirqas" and "Obaid". Obaid, who was really Abdul Hakim Murad, was to hit United flight 80, and then he was to go back to Singapore under another United flight which he would bomb. [1] [12] [13]
Zyed, probably Ramzi Yousef, was to hit Northwest Flight 30, a United Flight going from Taipei to Honolulu, and a United Flight going from Bangkok to Taipei to San Francisco [1] [16]
The bombs would have been timed before the operatives stepped off the planes. The aircraft would have blown up over the Pacific Ocean and the South China Sea almost simultaneously. If this plan worked, several thousand would have perished, and air travel would have been shut down worldwide for days, if not weeks. The U.S. government estimated the prospective death toll to be about 4,000 if the plot had been executed.
[edit]
The bomb
The "Mark II" "microbombs" had Casio digital watches as the timers, stabilizers that looked like cotton wool balls, and an undetectable nitroglycerin as the explosive. Other ingredients included glycerin, nitrate, sulfuric acid, and minute concentrations of nitrobenzene, silver azide (silver trinitride), and liquid acetone. Two 9-volt batteries in each bomb were used as a power source. The batteries would be connected to light bulb filaments that would detonate the bomb. Murad and Yousef wired an SCR as the switch to trigger the filaments to detonate the bomb. There was an external socket hidden when the wires were pushed under the watch base as the bomber would wear it. The alteration was so small that the watch could still be worn in a normal manner. [1] [13] [17]
Yousef got batteries past airport security during his December 11 test bombing of Philippine Airlines Flight 434 by hiding them in hollowed-out heels of his shoes. Yousef smuggled the nitroglycerin on board by putting it inside a contact lens solution bottle.
The density of the explosive cocktail would be about 1.3."
I foresee the rise of Transatlantic ships. Slower but a little safer. You can drown any wayward snakes easily, and I think I heard somewhere that muslim fundamentalists are terrified of saltwater. The only problem is, as we learned from SPEED 2, is that these large, fun-filled ships can easily be hijacked by Willem Dafoe.
the mods may say you posted flamebait, but to me it's a flame that warms my heart. rock on, brother! --chebucto
If you consider your rulers corrupt, clean your house starting at home. The U.S.A. buys oil, and thus transfers massive wealth to the Arab lands. If this does not benefit enough Arab people to suit you, clean your house. Allah has given the Arab people incredible wealth, you make the U.S. the scapegoat for your own failures which lead to poverty and misery in your lands. the U.S. was allied with Kuwait, so of course we fought Iraq in the first Gulf war. You complain of our supporting corrupt rulers, well we recently removed one and still you complain. Why did you not remove Saddam? Israel came into existence because wealthy Arab land owners sold the land out from under "your brothers" the Palestinian people, which then having gained a foothold expanded. So the blame once again is on Arab greed and foolishness and shortsightedness. If the Arab people had good rulers under whom the people would develop, grow and prosper; and once again assumed technological leadership of the world, Israel/Zionists and the liberation of holy sites would be a non-issue. If the Arab people advanced so they were capable of refining and producing their own petroleum products themselves with their own technology, there would be manyfold times the wealth in their lands. But instead we see actions which bring more poverty, death, hardship, and humiliation. Attacks against the U.S.A. have made more war and destruction on the Arab people and an even bigger U.S. presence in the middle east. The deaths of 3,000 americans in 2001 caused one hundred times as many Arabs to die, and morethan tenfold the number of U.S. soldiers to come to Arab lands. Is your the path to freedom or serfdom for the Arab people?
We are doomed, I am telling you, we are doomed.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Yes - probably because it's a card that's played at every opportunity.
I wonder what's happening in Lebanon today...didn't Isreal just mention that their war will take another month?...last time it was 10 days...and the time before that it was a week. I wonder what has been decided by the UN on the US/UK brokered 'peace plan'.
Stop crying about restrictions. In a month you will be able to carry all your stuff except liquids.
The level of alert causes extreme temporary measures like not allowing books.
The nature of particular threats causes relatively reasonable permanent measures like in this case, liquids.
The alert level will go down, the threat of liquids will remain.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."
I am looking forward to the day some terrorist will sucessfully carry through bomb up his ass, undetected by x-rays personell. To make it 'more safe and enjoyable experience' full cavity search will be done on everyone trying to board a plane.
:)
Yes, i'm european and i'm using trains - much more comfortable than flying will become should it follow this course of action
Personally i am very secptical about the amount of spin that are put on these "events".
Quote
Deputy Commissioner Paul Stephenson of Scotland Yard on today's anti-terrorist operation.
"We believe that the terrorists' aim was to smuggle explosives onto aeroplanes in hand luggage and to detonate these in flight."
"We also believe that the intended targets were flights from the United Kingdom to the United States of America."
Well the Deputy Commissioner Paul Stephenson of Scotland Yard is definitely a believer
I do not trust the uk/us government or the uk/us police, and these vague statments only make me wonder if all this terrorist $hit is just hype, and if both goverments have a self harming problem, that they are using as an excuse to force there ideals and actively pursue them as goals.
Just my 50 pence
- Are there liquid explosives whose components are (relatively) safely drinkable? I say relatively because, if you're a suicide bomber, it really doesn't matter if it will kill you in 24 hours, you just have to be conscious for 2 or 3 hours after drinking the stuff for the security staff.
- Are there liquid explosives which can be made from a drinkable component (or two or three) and (ewwww) urine?
How far do we go with this?We now live on the Paranoia, which they've definitely fostered intentionally.
The luggage that flies underneath the passengers in the cargo hold. The carry-on restrictions, while potentially mitigating the effects of a manually assembled device (i.e. in flight) do not absolutely resolve the threat condition. Soon we might find that there are no liquids or gels allowed at all on flights. Worse, there may be restrictions on shipping laptops, ipods or other electronics even in luggage. Soap and cosmetic companies must be happy about these coming rules.
if I claimed I was emperor just because some watery tart lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!
Translate that to the modern world and you would have us wipe out all muslims (or in the case of britain muslims and catholics?)
Cool. That would get us world peace.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
1. Falsify terror attack involving liquids
2. Ban any liquid carry-ons
3. Bump up price of airline drinks
4. PROFIT!!!
5. Put ????? into a storage cupboard for later use on slashdot
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
It's certain he knew yesterday. I heard him on NPR this morning saying that it was very difficult to determine exactly when to go after the people. If they went to early, they might not get everyone and it could provoke those they hadn't found yet to attack sooner. If they waited too long, they could have missed it.
No one remembers that little Sears Tower fiasco, either.
Of course, this media thing is not new. We actually were making significant progress in Vietnam forty years ago. The Tet Offensive was a major victory. However, the media didn't show us that - all they did was report the dead bodies, and we, being life-loving Americans exposed first-hand to the more horrific aspects of war, became frightened and wanted out.
I grew up in southern Virginia, where Rush Limbaugh == God and the media apparently has an unspeakable liberal bias. I don't believe any of this. If anything, the media is more into providing the sensationalist sense of shock, a kind of gradual goatse.
I'm running late, so I'll just put the lines on the page and leave space to read between them.
Joe got the boot from a grass roots movement.
The spin machine reminds people that democrats are left wing radicals that are weak on homeland security.
A convenient terror plot spoiled so soon after is suspicious.
You should be modded into oblivion for lameness.
You're calling their methods cowardly? These people are willing to give their very lives, and you call them cowards? Perhaps their methods are counterproductive, granted, but they are not cowardly. Our methods for fighting them, OTOH, surely reek of cowardice... not to mention hypocrisy, ignorance, stupidity...
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Is there any reason why whis post is categorized into the "United States" Section? Are you americans alittle bit paranoid? It happend in London, not in the US.
I've probably flown on about 40 flights in the US and Europe in the last 5 years and I've never had than happen to me.
"I suggest you STFU and let the adults continue however."
THE TERROR WEB by LAWRENCE WRIGHT Were the Madrid bombings part of a new, far-reaching jihad being plotted on the Internet?
Three-fourths of the way down (the entire piece is a good read).
Clearly this is a plot by the English and Amercian toiletry industries.
Everyone will be forced to buy shampoo, toothpaste, hair gel, etc. at their destination.
THE HORROR!
Interestingly I just saw V for Vendetta last night.
Strength through unity,
unity through faith,
England Prevails! (or something like that)
Seriously thanks for getting our back over the pond!
My boy, my boy!
This reminds me of an old TV show SLIDERS episode where the on that particular world lawyers out numbered the population like 20 to 1.
When one of the actors went to order a burger he was asked to provide a release from his doctor. If he wanted cheese or an order of fries he have to also provide a cholesterol screening, etc.
I wonder how the USA would fare if we curtailed things that actually killed us. 300,000 people die each year from heart problems. I think we'd save more lives if we were to declare on cholesterol. For that matter, twice as many people die each year crossing the street than in 9/11. If 3,000 people being murdered is a travesty (it is), why isn't it even worse when 10 times that many have been murdered from the resulting war?
Yes, bad anti-social people are a problem to be dealt with. That's why we have a judicial system and jails. I see no reason to eliminate or even curtail civil liberties to solve problems when statically I have a greater chance of being struck by lightning.
These low statistics are not a result of my fine government doing such a great job with new patriot type laws. The very nature of terrorism just doesn't allow for the wide spread death and destruction that drunk drivers cause. Terrorism is localized and limited in scope but designed for maximum mental effect. Our un-modified Constitution and former freedom respecting laws would have been ample to deal with these sociopaths.
At least with me they haven't even come close to winning. By they I include both the terrorists and the governments who exasperate fear.
I have much greater risks to my life to consider. Like whether or not on my way home from work a drunk driver will swerve into my lane. After all, it happens to 50,000 good citizens every each and every year.
I truly am unafraid. I am a fragile bag of mostly water. Life has risks. They need to be managed with a clear head.
MHO
So that is the reason terrorism usually is not obviously allowed to acomplish something. Well not that often anyway.
Israel was formed through terrorism against the brits who then controlled the region. That worked well enough and in 1948 Israel got its state (and 60 years of war but considering what they had before it can only be considered an improvement. 60 years of war vs another holocaust next time the germans are ready to start world war, wich would you pick?)
So terrorism is not allowed to achieve anything unless it suits everyones interest (america liked the idea of an ally in the middle east, britain just wanted to get the fuck out they had other problem and the USSR like the ideal of an ally in the middle east (yes really, history is really one big slapstick))
But even less obviously, would the current situation in ireland have been possible without terror? Would the protestants still supress the catholics like they had done before if the IRA had not fought its war of terror?
For that matter South Africa, the treat of the terror of civil war certainly helped the white rulers to accept loosing politcal power.
So terrorism direct or indirect does achieve results. It is a way of attracting attention to whatever cause you are fighting for and the other side will either have to destroy you (often impossible), live with the daily treath or in some way come to an agreement however indirect.
Terrorism works sometimes and that is enough. All it then takes is just enough people to carry it out. The oklahoma bombing apparently took just one person. Did it achieve anything? It did for him and ultimately that is all that matters.
Did the IRA "win" in northern ireland? They think so, perhaps the same current situation would have been achieved through other means. Perhaps the situation would be far better? But that is not what the guys with guns and the bombs think and in this world, he who holds the gun makes the rules.
Both the IRA and the terror organisation of the middle east are rather well known for coming down like a ton of bricks on anyone that dares to disagree from their own citizens. "Traitors" who question them are killed as example to anyone else that does not properly support their liberators.
You claim these acts of terror make crap rain down on their people. They do not care. It proofs the evil nature of the oppressor, makes anyone questioning them seem a traitor supporting the killing of his own people and gets the bleeding hearts on their side.
Drunk driving is bad right? Well a few years ago in england the whole of the bleeding heart PC crowd wept tears about a poor single mother who lost her license because of drink driving. Criminals are only bad if you cannot turn it into a sob story.
No, terrorism works. If it didn't it would still be around.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Muslims come in all shapes and colours.
There are many converts of all so called races, skin colour, nationalities and of course ages.
If you are going to have blanket, aimless searches, then they have to be aimed at everybody, because there is not such a thing as a typical terrorist, or a typical Muslim.
You would know that if instead of rainting about PC you had travelled around the world a bit more.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You guys are all a bit confused by the homonym. He keeps a bowl of _chocolate_ mousse in his hair. You know, for snacking.
I already did. That is why I made my post.
Where were you when the voynix came?
If your government builds up an illegal war on top of blantant lies, why should the people trust them?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
First, it sounds like cell phones aren't being allowed on the planes at the moment, which is totally BS. I think it would be pretty hard to make my Treo still work if I had hollowed it out enough to fit a bomb into. If they just ask that I turn it on, perhaps they would see that it's pretty damn unlikely to build a bomb out of it!
Second, I think that the TSA would probably see you as being suspect #1 to them. You aren't checking anything? You aren't carrying anything? Perhaps you have a one way ticket to somewhere? What type of person would do that? Obviously someone that wants to kill themselves and everyone else around them with the explosives that are hidden in your ass. That sounds like a great way to have a 'deep search' done by a brash woman named Helga that has very large hands, likes pain, used to work for a prison, and doesn't believe in lube.
Seriously, they will probably be looking extra carefully at you these days and wondering "why doesn't a person need ANYTHING with them?" Your reasons sound sane and logical, but the people seaching you are more paranoid and impractical than anything else. It's also obvious that they are much more concerned with having an apperance of security than actual security at times. I have probably seen 100 situations that the security is more 'feel good' security than effective security.
I'm still waiting for them to handcuff anyone that's taken Martial Arts or other hand to hand combat classes to their seats and place a burly federal air marshall on either side of them. AND they might let Helga search them just for the hell of it.
Even if these terrorists were sucessful, i'd still be 10x as worried about getting in a carwreck, or having a part of the Big Dig fall on my head than something happening in the air.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Thank you very much bloody muslims for making it impossible to do some work on an airplane.
Yes, I would say cowardly.
It doesn't take that much courage to kill yourself. People do it every day, here in the U.S. But most people don't choose to kill hundreds of unarmed women and children at the same time.
If these guys have so much courage, have them put on a uniform, grab an AK47, and storm the gates of a military base. That would take courage.
-- I have monkeys in my pants.
"What "they" (the Islamic extremists behind this stuff) want is the restoration of the "Caliphate" that used to span territories from the Middle East to Spain, and the resumption of that theocracy's growth and eventual rule of the world. That's the stated goal of these groups"
Shhhh. They'll only call you a Neocon for pointing out this fact. We all know, silly, that the only reason these groups hate us is because American corporations have presented them from having the progressive democratic socialist workers' paradises that these groups are fighting for.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Stop doing things that upset people.
The election manipulation aspect of the Madrid attack is overblown. If the government hadn't immediately pointed to Basque terrorists, the result may not have been the same. Furthermore, what did AQ really gain? The withdrawl of Spanish troops from Iraq? Yeah, that *really* changed the situation in Iraq. Spain had a whole fucking 1,300 troops there. That's 1% of the troops that the US has there.
You're missing the point. It isn't whether or not 1300 troops might or might not help add another spot in Iraq to the list of towns that don't have people getting blown up by other Muslims and which are now being policed by locals. It isn't even about whether or not the previous administration in Spain bungled their immediate response to the Madrid bombings (from a political-response point of view). The problem is that A.Q. now points to what they did in Madrid as an example of their power and ability to "command" western countries. This is a recruiting talking point, and a propoganda coup because of how they can portray it when doing interviews on Al Jazeera. The Spanish voters played right into it.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
That way they could keep raising it forever! The down side would be that it might be confusing ;-)
"In other news, Homeland Security raised the terror alert level from Red to Purple today amid fears of bearded Arab men doing naughty things."
No, that would just be suicide. And, Islamic extremists do just that, ie., put on a uniform and fight as soldiers, when the situation calls for it. As it is now, that is not an option for them.
Hmmm... and in Afghanistan, we arrested even soldiers and called them illegal combatants and jailed them illegally. Funny, that.
And dying for a cause has always been upheld as being extremely honourable here in America, and other Western nations. Why the double-standard when it comes to people who we deem our enemies?
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
The news coming from inside the U.S. vs outside sure has a different spin on this ordeal.
###
U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said that, while the operation was centred on Britain, it was international in scope and sophisticated, and involved many people. (... BS, it was the brits)
"This operation is in some respects suggestive of an al Qaeda plot, but because the investigation is still under way, we cannot yet form a definitive conclusion," Chertoff said. (... ahh US government spreading the fear again)
British police sources did not rule out an al Qaeda link, but played down direct involvement by the global militant group. Police sources said some of those arrested were British Muslims. (... also notably missing from any british reports are the words "terrorist cell", instead calling them a "group")
###
The only people publicly saying anything about al Qaeda is the US government. I also don't believe the US authorities knew or did didly squat, but they sure are making the rounds now. Makes me sick to see the US reporters blindly quoting Chertoff the jerkoff.
I seem to recall quite a few, set in times just after WW II, when Bond would have explosives in his toothpaste, shampoo, shaving cream, etc.
The fact that the incompetents in Homeland Insecurity never thought of this - well, what can I say other than to parrot Rove and say "Fear! Fear! Fear!" so you vote them back in.
News flash: your belt contains a piece of metal easily used as a weapon, especially when you wrap the leather of the belt around your hand.
Second news flash: blankets thrown over the heads of terrorists work wonders.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
...I've ever read on Slashdot; Logical, methodical and concise. I wish all posts were this good.
Alzheimer's patients, sociopaths, serial killers and others are all clinically insane, yet we can and do predict their actions on a regular basis. What's so different about predicting how terrorists behave?
Um, sorry, Alzheimer's disease is a progressive disease, and they're not always insane from a clinical viewpoint - it depends on the exact manifestation and the progression of the disease.
As to sociopaths, be careful what you say about our President. We have laws about that.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Ma'am! Can you please take off all your clothes and proceed on to board the plane. Thanks!
The troll who said that "Revelations" of this terror plot are too conveniently contrived to be close to the time of an election is stating the truth. If you check out the history of such announcements, and the start of significant military operations in the War on Terror, you will find the all of these announcements and military actions happen to occur within 48 months prior to a major national election. . How can the attempt to time these things in order to influence elections BE MORE OBVIOUS????
Where were you when the voynix came?
So, it is like we always have known: The terror alert mood ring is completely pointless and serves no purpose other than to make people think the government is competent and doing something about terrorism.
Of course. The best predictor of when the terror alert will be announced is to follow Bush's vacation schedule. If he's on vacation, expect Rove to call an alert.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
all of these announcements and military actions happen to occur within 48 months prior to a major national election
Yes! Knowing that another presidential election (never mind the coming one) will happen within a decade, we can definitely expect counter-terrorism victories sometime during the coming decade for the sole purpose of securing the election. It's elementary, Watson.
*sigh*
Honestly, I think some people actually buy that sort of crap. But they're also the same people that think it's their personal body's "electrical field" that causes some street lights to go out when they personally happen to be driving by.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
The sketpic in me is just not convinced that they could blow up a plane with 16oz of stable liquid explosive. You need some kind of solid explosive to make a big enough hole to cause catostrophic explosive decompression that would break up the plane.
A much more plausible scenario is mixing two liquids to form a poison gas if you ask me.
Just how much and how long is it to travel from London to New York by ship these days? It's looking like a more and more attractive option these days with all the pain-in-the-ass travel restrictions.
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
And dying for a cause has always been upheld as being extremely honourable here in America, and other Western nations. Why the double-standard when it comes to people who we deem our enemies?
I'm not calling them cowardly for killing themselves (I will however call them stupid for that, just as I would anyone who killed themselves just to kill other people, American or not), I am calling them cowardly for targeting easy civilian targets rather than the military and government they claim to be against.
No, that would just be suicide. And, Islamic extremists do just that, ie., put on a uniform and fight as soldiers, when the situation calls for it. As it is now, that is not an option for them.
So the situation clearly calls for the killing of innocent civilians then? I don't follow...
Finkployd
....or how the CIA timed the first WTC attack during the Clinton Administration, in order to harm Clinton's presidency. Years later, the same crew timed the second WTC attack during the 2nd Bush Administration, in order to help Bush's presidency. Nothing ever happens without a reason, and nothing ever happens without precise coordination and planning. We really have no idea what is going on unless we attend Bilderburger meetings.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"The reason they exist is for the purpose of violently pushing an agenda. "
And thats how i learned to stop worrying and love the bomb.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
With the huge lines/crowds gathering at major airports, wouldn't it be just as easy to kill a large amount of innocent people by blowing stuff up in said airport? I mean, the lines are gathered in places that haven't been checked for explosives yet...
> One innocent person accidentally shot by police.
I'm sorry, but I think that so-called "war on terror" has far more then one innocent person killed... By now you can count those innocent victims on thousands.
When facing to these imposed restrictions in the name of the "war on terror" - do you feel more safe then before the campaign against the terror started? Now is the time to look back and learn from the mistakes or at least stop lying to ourselves.
The antiterror campaing didn't make, does not make, will not make the world any safer. Let's stop lying about it and let's look for other solutions to this problem. Securing the borders and airports is not a solution. It has only delaying effect...
Well, I've got to get back to work. When I stop rowing, the slave ship just goes in circles.
What I'm waiting for is the underwear bomber. Maybe someone will figure out how to make a bomb using knicker elastic. Then we'll all be banned from wearing underwear.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
Islamists have culture. Unforntunately, that culture seems to more resemble 1506 than 2006.
Congratulations, Homer.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Nearly all of the excessive airport security regulations and equipment we have adopted since 9/11 to fight terrorists is a waste of time and money. If a terrorist is willing to kill themselves, no amount of security at the airport is going to stop them.
The only place you can stop terrorists like these is the same way this most recent plot was foiled - with good intelligence work that detects the plots prior to the execution stage. Once the terrorists get to the execution stage, it's too late - either you let them on the plane with their battery and 'shampoo' and they blow up the plane, or you search everyone so they can't bring batteries and 'shampoo' on planes and the terrorists just blow up the security line instead. And letting them on the plane is better - at least then you're only open to attacks from multiple, coordinated suicide bombers backed by people with chemical expertise; if you try and catch them at the checkpoint your checkpoint is vulnerable to any garden-variety lunatic with an automatic weapon or a pipe bomb.
The US has entirely overreacted to this threat by banning all these things from carryons. Instead of making us safer, these changes have just created tens of thousands of ripe targets standing in large groups in front of airport security checkpoints.
paintball
I'm wondering: how many people in their right mind will allow their laptop to be put on the plane as checked luggage? Do you realize how luggage is being handled? Who hasn't had a ripped bag come off the plane yet, or broken souvenirs... Do you really trust your expensive laptop (with even more expensive and often irreplaceble data) to be handled by low-paying carrier boys who couldn't care less about what happens to your stuff?
What's the opinion of slashdotters here? If the laptop-restriction becomes permanent, will you allow your laptop to be checked in as cargo?
Not me, in any case.
Terrorism has but one objective, a political one.
The "Muslim" terrorists broadly want to establish Muslim governments (or governments that are more fundamentalist) in the countries where they live or operate. They target Westerners purely as a means to that end; to deter Western governments from propping up non-Muslim governments.
If you're inconvenienced, killed, afraid, paranoid, lose civil liberties; they really don't care. Its not their goal or objective.
If the US withdrew from the Middle East you would probably see the domestic threat of attacks decrease or stop entirely.
What's wrong with that cop? It looks like he's in gastric distress about to rip a major one, or he's in love, and just saw the object of his affection... Man... (The fact those two different thoughts could be applied to be the same photo is disturbing in itself :)
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
These latest developments are arguably going to lead to a reduction in passenger numbers. How many of us travelling for leisure (or even for business) will consider the latest security constraints are the final straw? We'll seek alternatives such as land-based transport, or even not travelling at all.
The silver lining: less emissions from aircraft. So now terrorism is good for the environment?
I'm not calling them cowardly for killing themselves (I will however call them stupid for that, just as I would anyone who killed themselves just to kill other people, American or not), I am calling them cowardly for targeting easy civilian targets rather than the military and government they claim to be against.
Well, SUPPOSEDLY, we are a democracy, and are responsible for the actions of our government.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
A terrorist organization is like any other organization - it's primary goal is to insure the continuation of the organization.
They start out as a group with a certain goal - erradication if Isreal, independence from a particular government, etc. But the organization then develops, and you get a power structure. People are running the organization, people are members of the organization, people are recruiting new members to the organization. To the people in that oganization, who conduct their lives around the organization's goals, actually ACHIEVING the goal becomes an ancillary concern. Participation is the reward, and for those at the top, being at the top is a strong incentive to keep the organization going.
The only thing that organizations like Islamic Jihad, for example, dislike more than Isreal would be the destruction of Israel - because then you don't need Islamic Jihad anymore. The goal that started the fight has been replaced by the goal of conducting the fight. The IDEOLOGY is still 'Destroy Israel', but the goal of the acts of the organization is merely to perpetuate the organization.
paintball
You refer to episodes of Mythbusters by number only, and can immediately correlate episode numbers with relevant experiments/subjects. Times like this, I wish there was a +1 Geek mod option on /.
Programmer: an ingenious device that converts caffeine into code.
The "Muslim" terrorists broadly want to establish Muslim governments (or governments that are more fundamentalist) in the countries where they live or operate. They target Westerners purely as a means to that end; to deter Western governments from propping up non-Muslim governments.
Yeah, that plan ain't working so well is it?
If the US withdrew from the Middle East you would probably see the domestic threat of attacks decrease or stop entirely.
Would it be ok to let them just destroy Israel then? I imagine if they didn't have the US to focus on, they would either turn towards England (the ones who carved up the area to begin with) or against each other. I guess we will find out if we ever kick out oil dependency. Without oil there is nothing really in the middle east the US needs to worry about except all out India consultants.
Finkployd
In actuality we are a Republic, and the difference is significant here.
Either way, I don't think the cowards are checking voter registration of their victims before dispatching them, so they are getting those against the war as well.
Finkployd
When are we going to begin hearing the liberal bloggers say that this is a campaign of disinformation by the Rove-Dubya-Liberman syndicate???
Hey, and I'm not even a current road warrior, having local projects for the majority of this year. It will impact where/what projects I'll consider in the future.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
If you're inconvenienced, killed, afraid, paranoid, lose civil liberties; they really don't care. Its not their goal or objective.
Which is why I really don't care about them either. And right now we are the stronger.
If the US withdrew from the Middle East you would probably see the domestic threat of attacks decrease or stop entirely.
I doubt it. Their leaders use us as the boogey man just like our leaders use them. And besides, we will never abandon Israel.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK
I am full aware of them and their close ties with Hamas and other similar organizations that see the extermination of Jews as a main goal. Wanting genocide does not make them "sane and rational" in my book. Groups like CAIR do oppose terrorism against Americans, but they think it is OK against Jews.
"If these aren't the sort of voices of Islam that the corporate media is bringing you, I think you can figure out who's to blame."
Isn't all media corporate? If you end up more than a tiny size, you have to incorporate as part of organizational reality? What exactly do you mean? I am indeed aware of Walid Shoebat, but his voice is in such contrast to the others.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"...sane and rational Muslim leaders [cair-net.org]"
... should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." (Comment: I find this insane and irrational and un-American when Pat Robertson says similar things. Naturally, I find it insane and irrational for Omar to say this)
Here is an important quote from Omar Ahmad, founder and shaper of CAIR for almost all of its existence:
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran
There is ample documentation elsewhere of the strong and close ties to actual violent terror groups that show CAIR as being just a fund-raising and organizing front for them.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Well they are too busy speading fear and propaganda. I dont think they really have the time for these pesky investigations when they can find a buncha morons from Florida that couldnt tie their shoes much less be a threat to the US. They are still firing gay arabic translators which, really, really, confuses me cause like um...its national security, who cares? I guess the whole point of my post is that while other countries like the UK actually bust their asses to stop folks, the US just pays lipservice to it. I dont know what thats all about, maybe a fellow slashdotter will clue me in. One thing that makes me nervous about this is I hear a lot of chatter about adopting UK style intelligence laws...Anyone here think thats what really makes the difference?
-those people who tell you not to take chances, they are all missing what lifes' all about-
Well, these may be justified to keep things out of the carry on areas, but what's to stop creative terrorists from putting explosive chemicals in the cargo hold. One chemical embedded in a block of ice, which will melt after a few hours, mix with another chemical and "Bang!". Oh, now I get it, that's what the three hour delays are for. I see the logic now.
-those people who tell you not to take chances, they are all missing what lifes' all about-
and that's where most of the shit is coming from. US media don't show us everything what's going on there (like kind of demonstrations they have). One day there will be civil war over there.
And here I thought it was only the british who were adverse to toothpaste ;-)
Don't worry folks, this won't be a problem for long. The airlines are already in trouble financially and this sort of stuff is great for getting people to vacation by car or locally. Add that airline ticket prices are skyrocketing due to gas prices and you won't have to worry about restricting carry on items anymore because soon you'll only be able to fly if you own your own jet.
I suspect you would need upwards of a kilogram detonated at a key location within the cabin to ensure a crash.
Nitro Glycerin
Remember, more recently the police also shot a man in his own home in the early hours of the morning (in Forest Gate in East London). He was later released without charge. Would you like it if the police broke into your house in the early hours, shot you and then arrested you?
Nitroglycerin is a liquid explosive, and nearly the most powerful one there is in terms of KJ/gram of it. The plastiques are more "brisant" which means a faster risetime of the shockwave, better at breaking rocks without tamping and so forth, but only about half the calorie output. To knock out a plane, simple overpressure would seem enough, since you're in a containment vessel, no special need for brisance. In this case, it seems the plotters were planning to use acetone peroxide, an easy to make, brisant (if you don't mind a lot of risk) explosive made from liquids, but which is actually a solid in use. It's less powerful than nitro, more sensitive, and the teeny bombers who inhabit the explosives boards often lose body parts trying to make it. One normally does this at the lowest possible temperatures to prevent premature detonation during manufacture. Maybe at room temperature it just goes off, maybe even before the synthesis is complete. I don't plan to try it here. Not averse to some danger, but gheesh. I know of a *careful* person who got hurt trying it the "right way". On the AP front, one of the components is acetone, which I'd think even a brain dead security person would whiff easily. You'd pass out quick if you drank any amount, and stink. High strength peroxide would release O2 really fast if ingested, and make quite a show. So they're not totally full of it on the drink it test. Interestingly, the "scanners" used to detect explosives won't see quite a number of unconventional ones, existing scanners are looking for a certain density, one at which the normal terrorist explosives (stolen military stuff) work the best. 'Nuff said. And yes, I've informed the DHS about this.
so obviously something worked... why up the restrictions now, after the fact? Oh yeah, because catching the guys makes people scared there's more guys, so let's just keep upping the restrictions.
people will be throwing out getting on the plane will be harmless why not just give it away to people *leaving* the airport?
Because The Terrorists Have Already Won because we instituted all these stupid security procedures. If they attacked a security checkpoint, even once, people would figure that the security checkpoints were stupid. And then We wouldn't be inconvenienced any more. And that's not what They want.
Some time ago the Met executed some innocent guy because they thought he was a tourist and now they have arrested 21 people with your actual real McCoy explosive gel and not one executed. WTF?
Thanks
What in particular is wrong with the Australian government? Inquiring minds need to know, because it's high on my list of places to emigrate to when I get sick of this shit once and for all.
The Canadian government is as idiotically paranoid as their Southern neighbour.
Truly a sad day.
... was described as a 'weapon of mass destruction' by these people. They use fear to control the stupid sheeple.
After watching Die Hard 2 one evening quite a while back, I decided to research liquid explosives - because it was a movie, and it seemed plausible to have a 2-part mixed explosive (just like 2-part epoxy), and I did know about nitroglycerin...
What I remember finding was yes, there were such things as one part and two part liquid explosives - but nobody seriously considered them useful because while they were very powerful, they were also very unstable - mixed or unmixed! That is, even the components of a two part explosive were seriously unstable - not something you would want to play around with.
Heck - just last night I saw the Mythbusters episode where they try to make a homemade smokebomb using saltpeter and sugar, cooking it on a stove. Adam was mixing a batch, and was using what I think was a metal spoon (bad idea) and it caught on fire pretty quick (this particular "stunt" they were real stupid to pull inside a building - between it and the methane bubble column they made I am surprise they didn't burn the place down - you don't make homemade explosives indoors without taking any and all precautions, especially if you are new to the task!) - and that wasn't even a particularly unstable mixture (well, more unstable heated, I suppose).
Unless I am mis-remembering what I found about liquid explosives (which is always possible) - it makes a great plot device for a movie, but there is a reason we don't see these explosives used much anymore (we don't even see much use of nitroglycerin or nitrocellulose - aka guncotton - either).
So am I wrong (wouldn't be the first time)? Or am I right, and that this whole "liquid explosives going to be used by terruhists" is nothing more than maybe some cooked up FUD (or at worst, an actual plot in which the perpetrators weren't using liquid explosives, or if they were, would have killed themselves on the way to the airport)?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
The first things that I thought of:
Who exactly in Pakistan reported this? It appears that they are going on the word of a single person or small group of people. They invaded a country on shakey intelligence. No one, no where seems to be questioning the credability of the source. Osama Bin Laden has always stated his plans where to disrupt our way of life, this seems to acheive that goal nicely.
Why England? The second most paranoid country in the world? Street cred aside, anyone with half a brain in their head would have to expect to get caught trying to pull off an attack like this in the UK or the US.
Could this be a diversion? Watch carefully the next few days.
Has any actual liquid explosives been found? Only suspects, again we seem to be in a position of no WMDs.
Who has the most to gain from a thwarted terrorist attack?
Care to cite some examples? Some so-called "soldiers" in Afghanistan may have been uniformed and even registed with the (former) Taliban government, but were they following the Geneva Convention? The rules of engagement? Operating independently and therefore classified as AWOL/renegade/rogue units?
And this whole thing reminds me of that movie. So we are now told that authorities have stopped a major terrorist-attack from taking place. Somehow, when I read this piece of news, I can hear the Chancellors voice from V saying "I want you to remind them (the citizens) just how badly they need us!"
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
If they really, really wanted to freak out everybody, I think the best target would be a small town in the middle of nowhere. Right now such a tiny percentage of people fly, if something goes down then yeah, that's a bummer. But when it comes to attacks, but everyone outside of just a few big cities always thinks "It'll never happen here". NYC, San Fran, London, they're all expecting something.
Blow up a water tower in a small town, or poison their water supply, or blow up a college/high school stadium. Now, EVERYONE EVERYWHERE will suddenly change their thoughts, aggree to all kinds of draconion security measures, and generally completely live by fear. Because now it CAN happen to them.
I'm just saying...
If you want to buy shares, buy the catering companies'. BA stock dropped 6% & Easyjet dropped too. It's a cert. that their stocks won't bounce back in a hurry (save for the effect of speculative buyers) but the catering companies won't feel the squeeze as much.
British and American support for the wars in Iraq, Afganistan and now Lebanon is flagging. Tuesdays primary elections across much of America did not bode well for incumbants nor the Republican party in their majority. People are beginning to question the increased capability, budgets and restrictions of a literal well spring of surveillance programs and the ultra-empowerment of government on formerly free societies. The people grow weary and have taken to question authority, the quality of reasoning, the accuracy of propoganda and the appropriateness in applications of force.
Clearly opportune timing for a requisite event.
The formation of fear is a powerful tool in politics as it is in war.
It seems that everytime someone tries something bad they ban it from flights. So all I have to do is design exploding underwear (nitrocellulose?) and convince someone to try to carry it on. I'd drop a dime on them before they got on of course. Then just hang out at the airport watching security guards confiscate everyone's undies.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Do you know why the terrorist do and try to do these these terrible things to Britain and the U.S? It's because we have made a tribal war between the Jews and the Muslim world our business when it is none of our business. If we withdrew our monetary support from Israel who is holding the Golan heights, the west bank, and Gaza against the wishes of 60 U.N. resolutions, and we also stopped supporting repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia, I guarantee that the Jews and Muslim's would fall back to fighting amongst themselves and leave us entirely alone. Perhaps this sort of straight talk will make people uncomfortable but I think it's time to break the taboo and speak of these matters plainly and to the point.
Although I consider myself a decentralist Green if I were President of the U.S. I would make an isolationist "conservative" like Pat Buchanan Secretary of State. My FIRST speech as president would be something like the following:
"My fellow AMERICANS, good evening
The United states of America is facing serious internal crises in the 21st century such declining energy supplies, 40 million people who have no access to basic health care, and declining educational standards. From now on the U.S. in a bi-partisan fashion is going to focus on it's own internal affairs and leave other nations and their outdated tribal conflicts to themselves. If other people of the world want to involve themselves in failed nation building exercises that is their choice, but the United States of America shall not participate in these missions and shall maintain a stance of armed neutrality towards other countries like Switzerland while we get our own affairs in order. Focusing on our own affairs will allow us to reduce our military budget by 50% in the first year of my Presidency, allowing us to keep former president Bush's tax cuts to help the economy expand while also allowing us to start drawing down the deficit. If the coming years prove to be peaceful we will slowly start further reductions in the military budget that are the long delayed "peace dividend" we were supposed to receive at the end of the cold war. These funds will be used to build a high speed train system to increase the U.S.'s energy independence to deal with global warming, and reduce our dependence on oil from the troubled middle east. Next we will start a program of HMO vouchers so the poorest among us can gain access to needed health care while retaining the finest privately held medical system in the world. Finally we will increase teacher salaries immediately by 20% and earmark billions to improve the conditions of our schools so the United States can maintain it's edge in global economy in the now maturing information age.
I look forward to a healthy and prosperous future for the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Thank you and good night."
I think sort of stance has a good chance of pleasing both small government isolationist true conservatives, and liberal lefties who would like us to focus more on domestic policy. What's more and getting back to the original topic it will keep us out of the pointless irrational conflicts in the middle east. You don't see people burning Swiss flags on the streets of Beirut, do you?
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
If they'd carpet bombed these towel-head fuckers properly when they had the chance, we wouldn't have anything to worry about...
I suspect that Amtrack is behind all of this. By making flying as miserable and as shitty an experience as possible they'll convince everyone to start taking the train.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I don't agree with his methods but I have to say that he has a point. Yes, his rhetoric is overblown, but his core arguments on the impact and influence of US foreign policy and Israel's role are pretty sound. Whittled down to their essentials, and without his Bin Laden's name attached to them, pennies to pounds the liberal left would agree with a geat deal of what he says.
I thought we were fighting them over there so we didn't have to fight them here. What ever happened to that?
// This is not a sig.
Because this sentence doesn't really work.
Most of the islamofascists don't really give a rat's ass about Israel, they just make a convenient whipping boy to stir up unrest and support for the cause.
But if Israel is a convenient whipping boy and helps stir up support, then surely their support cares about Israel? I mean, why would they use Israel to stir up support if their recruits don't give a rat's ass about it, and only care about the material success of the West? They can't simultaneously care about Israel and not care about Israel.
You're forgetting Harry Stanley, an "Irish terrorist" who turned out to be a Scottish guy walking home from the pub. They got away with claiming he was pointing a table leg at them despite the fact that they shot him in the back of the head.
end sarcasm
The point I'm trying to make in my post (because in retrospect it may not be totally clear) is that we Judeo-Christian Americans have a double standard when it comes to fear. It doesn't make sense! I am equally guilty of the fear but I don't know if anyone's asked why. That's why I asked.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
So what kind of government is there where everyone is a member? I think they call it democracy or something....
(Republics work just fine too, and those in government are "elected" (i.e. "governed") by everyone)
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
UK police said they could have caused "mass murder on an unimaginable scale".
Even if they blew up ALL 10 planes, and each had 150 people on, then 1,500 people still isn't unimaginable as we saw far worse on 9/11 (and 10x that on the last tsunami which killed over 230,000 people, admittedly not murder but the images were graphic enough not to leave anything to the imagination).
Michael Chertoff, US Director of Homeland Security, said the scheme was "suggestive of an al-Qaeda plot".
Throw in the terrorist buzzword al-Qaeda.
US President George W Bush said the alleged plot was a "stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists who will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom".
And if it turns out that the security services were wrong it will be amended to "a stark reminder to what could happen if we let out viligence down..."
etc etc
It's great that our security services are up to their usual standard, but it's sad that the politicians are jumping on the terrorist bandwagon to further their own ends. Even during the peak of the IRA, with brave English and Irish people putting their lives on the line of a daily basis for intelligence, Scotland Yard or whomever would get the occasional pat on the back but none of this sensationalism. The only bright side is Pakistan having the guts to stand up to their extremists publically.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Just drop a couple a those baby's in 2-liter bottle of Diet Coke, and Blam!
If they are shooting innocent people by accident. how many innocent people do you think they are ACCUSING of crime?
No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
Does anyone know why these Muslim nutcases hate the US so much. (Apart from the Iraq + Afgan invasions, but they are post 9/11)
s rael/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html)
One of the main reasons for the September 11th attacks was the huge amount of aid given to Israel to enable them to wage war against the Arab world.
The current attacks on Lebannon are paid for by US taxpayers.
In 2006 the US is giving Israel 2.2 Billion dollars in military aid. This is not a loan, it is a gift.
(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-I
Knowing most american mods this post will be modded down as offtopic, but this is one of reasons for terrorist attacks on planes going to the US (These attacks foiled today were only on planes leaving the UK for the US, not planes going anywhere else according to what little info has been released here in the UK.)
I dont read
If they can't bring their purses, then they won't board the planes! If they won't board the planes, then their annoying-assed kids won't be there!
I'd be happy as a clam if either of them stopped flying. Both? By golly, I'm extatic!
It's like this to a greater or lesser extent in all the member states of the EU. In Europe we need to figure out how to integrate our muslim populations properly, yet Blair insists on allowing the muslims and other ethnic minorities to create their own "faith schools" which segregates people at exactly the time when they should be mixing. Genious!
I hate Liberals and Conservatives.
If you are a Liberal or a Conservative, then HAVE A NICE DAY!
Courage.
One of my family is a pilot that covers those flights in to/out of the region. I'm frustrated that I can not kill these men myself. These, and all voilent terrorists, should be publically desposed of with haste. Their heads on spikes at airports seems appropriate. Everyone who knowingly aided them in any way -- same treatment. Politics aside, if you knew someone were conspiring to kill your family what would you do?
Dirt doesn't need luck.
And would have absolutely no effect whatsoever. The US and Israel blow up civilians damn near every day in these conflicts. Dropping bombs from stealth fighters on buildings with women and children in them is cowardly. Why don't they grab all their body armor, advanced weapons and such and start going house to house looking for insurgents? Oh yeah, cause it's a bloody stupid thing to do. Same reason you won't see insurgents storming military bases. Although, last time they drove a truck bomb into a military base and blew it up, it was called a terrorist attack anyway. It's all just propaganda.
Maybe they should just face the truth and rename the 'alert level' system to 'scare-the-shit-out-of-the-public-to-push-our-poli tical-agenda-o-meter'
i tical-agenda-o-meter' if they admitted what it is really for.
It might defeat the purpose of the 'scare-the-shit-out-of-the-public-to-push-our-pol
I hate Liberals and Conservatives.
If you are a Liberal or a Conservative, then HAVE A NICE DAY!
Courage.
You really expect a military force that is far outclassed by its enemies to follow the rules laid out by its attackers? They were all operating fairly independently because we destroyed their infrastructure. How else are they going to operate? Convenient when the rules are stacked in your favor and you can call anyone a criminal. Pretty much just like what we're doing with our own laws here in the states. Make enough laws, and everyone's guilty of something. Then you can just prosecute your enemies.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
- Elmo
- Ernie
- Bert
- Cookie Monster
- Oscar
http://www.geekandproud.net/terror/I hate Liberals and Conservatives.
If you are a Liberal or a Conservative, then HAVE A NICE DAY!
Courage.
....airport curbside baggage handlers have been over heard telling flyers, "Want to buy insurance for your bag to get to its destination with you?"
You really expect a military force that is far outclassed by its enemies to follow the rules laid out by its attackers? They were all operating fairly independently because we destroyed their infrastructure. How else are they going to operate? Convenient when the rules are stacked in your favor and you can call anyone a criminal. Pretty much just like what we're doing with our own laws here in the states. Make enough laws, and everyone's guilty of something. Then you can just prosecute your enemies.
You really expect a military force that is putting up with terrorists attacks that break the rules of war to follow the rules of war laid by civilized man? You don't want them to torture terrorists, but how do you expect them to operate?
What is TSA going to do now? Do I need to drain my liquid-filled bladder on a TSA "inspector" in the name of security? Does TSA intend to deploy a giant people squeezing press, to squeeze all the dangerous liquid from our bodies - used on us for our own safety in the name of security, of course. The plan is to rehydrate you on arrival, and TSA "scientists" are working on the rehydration process by praying and watching old Star Trek episodes (it *should* be ready when you arrive at your final destination - really, I mean, TSA has never lied before, have they?).
The TSA motto: "To Pointlessly Harrass and Annoy," oh, and we'll need to see your identificaton and travel pass, too.
If you have really big breasts they scare the crap out of a newborn
/. ?? wierd]
New one on me, and they don't seem to have scared any of my sons. I have heard they can make positioning more difficult.
So if he is a 10 lb. 22.75" giant like my son (very few if any women produce enough milk for such a child). You need to bottle the Brest milk so he can get all that mothers milk goodness and still consume enough calories to not go hungry and cry all night.
Low production is most commonly down to bad advice. Formula top-up is really really bad advice. Formula top-up is known to reduce milk production. Telling women they have to top-up because they "don't have enough milk" is therefore a self-fulfilling prophecy.
A 10lb baby is not that big (although much over that and you may want to check for maternal diabetes) and most women, with correct advice and support, will be able to exclusively breastfeed such a baby. Not only do I know several who have, but some who are tandem feeding as well. If you want to say that "very few if any wmone who top up with formula will produce..." then that may be correct - but it's the formula that does it.
Also, the "mothers milk goodness" is only part of the benefit - avoiding the formula not-goodness is a major benefit, that's why all the medical advice is for exclusive breastfeeding (to six months).
Finally, babies are also designed to feed (and cry) through the night, and night feeding is known to be important for stimulating and maintaining milk production. Formula puts them to sleep for the night because it hangs around longer because it is too hard to digest.
[how the f*** did we end up on this on
Now I have to suffer through lost luggage whether I want to or not?!
Bah!
It's all a plot by the aluminum laptop case companies. Is there actually any case capable to survive heathrow's baggage handlers?
Are you really free if you let terror have free reign in the homeland, or are you in denial? Many wise words were written by the founding fathers. But I don't believe they intended to do your thinking for you 250 years later.
an ill wind that blows no good
I'd expect them to follow the rules, or admit that they can't and won't follow the rules. They want to break the rules and then lie about it. That's cowardly. As for the terror tactics that are being used against us, I expect we'd see the same thing if the U.S. was occupied by some middle-eastern country.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Game Over.
Only his tendency toward a dazed stupor prevented him from screaming aloud.
Well, it's all very fine to have all these extra checks at the airport but look at the queues they generate: If you were a terorist bent on killing a maximum number of people, nothing easier than turning up at, say, Heathrow Airport and blow yourself up when in the queue BEFORE being searched!
Given what we saw on TV of the number of people waiting you can be assured to:
1. Kill many more people than you would have done in a plane.
2. Completely paralyse air transport as there is no way to prevent such attacs.
And by the way, what is there to prevent a terorist swallowing explosives in small packets the same way drug mules do? XRay for everyone? I don't think so!
You don't know much about the history of Islam, do you? Ever heard of the word "dhimmi"? You should look it up, because that is what you will soon be.
I meant significant with respect to the war, not the environment.
the Bush/Blair/Howard terrorist consortium need a kick in the knee caps
I'm sorry but you did not understand: One of the purposes of the Viet Nam war was to depopulate the Southeast Asian peninsula. The rendering radioactive of Mesopotamia and now Lebanon has a similar goal in mind. I cannot imagine a more potent act of war than to render your enemy's land unlivable. Remember after the 3rd Punic war the entire surrounds of Carthage was sewn with salt to render it useless.
Only his tendency toward a dazed stupor prevented him from screaming aloud.
Are we really falling for this? This is the worst comic book I have ever been in. To predictable.
There are LOTS of examples in history where nations have been invaded, ravaged and then left to their own few remaining, pitiful devices and not turn to terror attacks in formerly invading countries. (If the War of 1812 is too far back, what about China? Or better yet, Vietnam?)
"Just like you, you rancid piece of slime. Well, Not Really..."
Well, if you are that emphatic about it!
Where were you when the voynix came?
A foolish assertion. Do I need to remind you that Mohammed Atta passed security at the lightly defended Portland ME airport? It is of vital importance the the security at Kennedy Airport is the same as in Quad Cities.
I think you are confused about freedom. I am practically strip searched before I get on a plane. But I understand why and try to make it easy on the TSA folks. Is it really worth getting worked up because you can't take your Frappuccino on board anymore? Your real freedom is to travel anywhere in our glorious nation on a whim.
an ill wind that blows no good
The British weren't blindly dropping bombs on buildings, not knowing exactly who's inside either. If they had won, and occupied the country, then things might have been different. But like I said, I don't know if terrorism would have been effective back then. Communication, transportation, high-powered explosives, etc., are all absent. Can't see it working out very well.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
"Remember after the 3rd Punic war the entire surrounds of Carthage was sewn with salt to render it useless."
How big of a needle did they use?
Where were you when the voynix came?
Muslim != Arab
"You are wrong. The victim was Brazilian"
That really doesn't say what race the shooter and the shootee were. Brazilian is not a race.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Didn't have time to address this point earlier, but let me take a shot at it now. Vietnam? How were they going to attack civilians? They didn't have the means to attack anyone outside of the area. They also didn't really have the need. They weren't losing. Yes, we had a much more powerful military, but it was not designed for that kind of war. We probably could have won eventually, but it would have been at a high cost, and there probably wouldn't have been much of anything left of the country afterwards. And really, what would we have gained after all that?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
The term "South Asia" is usually used to refer to the region around India. There are three countries in that area with huge Muslim populations: India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. With the exception of the inevitable few immigrants here and there, all of these Muslims are non-Arabs. Closer to the topic, the Pakistani bottle-bombers being referred to are Muslims, but aren't Arab in the least. This is probably news to you. I would guess you have the mistaken belief that Iranians are "Arabs" too.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Well, Not Really...
Thanks for the parody. We need more satirical posts like that.
you watch too much old batman
watch "the money masters" on google video
Wow, you know almost nothing of the 1960's do you? Violence against the civil rights movement? The use of suicide bombers, aka sappers? The fact that was the era when nutjobs were arming themselves against the 'oppressive' U.S. government? The beginning of drug dealing and eventually the bloody drug wars of the '80's?
The '60's is considered to be one of the worst decades in U.S. history by historians for good reason.
"Hey lets do drugs to resist the government!" Twenty years later. "OMFG! Won't the government do something about these drugs?!"
"Lets just let the U.N. handle international things, Vietnam showed us we shouldn't be sending our troops abroad." Thirty years later. "Somalia has fallen to warlords after the U.N. pulled out when the U.S. did, Syria and Iran is giving weapons to Hizballah right in front of U.N. troops and genocide, sorry ethnic cleansing, is still being committed in parts of Africa since the U.N. is so determined to build up the African Union (yes this is an actual organization). Won't the U.S. do something about all this?!"
"The reason goes beyond the US. Their religion has existed for thousands of years. This is their reason, which may not stop until the entire world is muslim and under their control. Would that satisfy you?"
A point of clarification: whose religion has existed for thousands of years (that you ar referring to)?
Where were you when the voynix came?
Right, when you try to pick up your luggage it won't be there.
Instead there will be a slip from UPS stating that you owe them $xx.xx in taxes, and another $XXX.XX in brokerage fees.
At which point you'll have to fax them proof, each and every day that you are the owner of the luggage, over a 5 day period as well since they will claim they never received a fax.
Finally, they will acknowledge your fax being received and brokerage office will take 3-5 days to cancel the fees owing.
This is the point where you will be taking the plane again to return home. You'll get harassed by security because they will find it strange that you are still wearing the gown, and do not have any other luggage to check in.
About a week later you will receive a package from UPS with about 3/4 of your luggage, the 1/4 (the good stuff) unaccounted for.
Finally, when you call to complain and request money back to replace the damaged and items, they will tell you that it is up to the shipper not the receiver to make the claim.
That's when you call the airline and get in the queue for making luggage claims with the other 50 thousand people that day.
Now that's a holiday!
"An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child in this great nation. We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and to protect our homeland."
Exactly, and with reports of security queues 600 metres in length, reaching well outside the terminal building, the targets are not only dense, but easy to get in large numbers with e.g. a car bomb.
Why this hasn't been done by terrorists is a mystery! Are they not that bright? Or do they simply not exist?
"Terrorists" believe they are doing the right thing. We call them evil. They call us evil. It's easy to say that we're just right and they're just wrong, but they'd say the opposite. Really the truth lies in neither position since the concept of evil is both subjective and subject to proximity bias.
I'm wary about what you might mean by "the concept of evil is [...] subjective". Surely you're not making a claim of moral relativism here, i.e. that there is no single, universal, objective means of morally evaluating an action, and that morality is just an arbitrary social construct?
Certainly different people and cultures will think that different specific things are good or evil, but if "good" and "evil" have any real meaning then all of those claims must be either true or false. Thus if the opposing sides were to rationally discuss things critically and open-mindedly and clarify any confusion and misunderstanding between them, they would be able to agree on which of those statements are true and which are false, and thus, what is actually good or evil. Not that that is at all likely to happen, but you must admit that it would in principle be theoretically possible.
In such a discussion, one thing that would definitely need clarifying is what you mean by "us" and "them". The innocent civillians being blown up by terrorists certainly aren't evil (or better, put, haven't done evil deeds, since people aren't good or evil but rather their actions are). But then, neither are the vast majority of Arabs and other Middle-Eastern people (and hell, Americans as well) who are being adversely affected by the actions of the U.S. government. It's the people on both sides who are going around violently interfering with the lives of innocents who are "evil", and neither we (innocent Americans) nor they (innocent middle-easterners) deserve that violence.
Maybe, if people cared enough and were willing and able to communicate so well, all the innocents involved could join together to stop the criminals on both sides of this conflict. But as it is now, there's far too many people on both sides cheering on "their" respective team. That doesn't make them evil and deserving of death, but it's certainly a big road block in the resolution of any sort of conflict.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
I'm really surprised by the LARGE number of slashdotters here who are siding with the terrorists. More than half! Wow, what a bunch of whining, pathetic, immature, looney, idiots.
Wtf are you talking about? Sappers is a term that referred to combat engineers, not suicide bombers.
This is just your ramblings. Got any evidence that it is the same people making both claims? Not that it would really surprise me, but this still has nothing to do with whether terrorism would have been possible or useful for the Vietnamese. Did you not read the previous posts or what?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
From everyone's favorite reference site Wikipedia :
During the Vietnam War, American soldiers reported (and US military sources documented) a number of incidents where Vietnamese children were given hand grenades and/or explosives and used as weapons against American troops. In one variation, a young girl is instructed to throw a hand grenade (with or without pulling the pin to activate it first, depending on whether direct or psychological casualties are intended.) In another variation, children had explosives strapped to their bodies and were encouraged to mingle with American soldiers, with detonation either by a mechanical device or by remote control. Incidents such as these were cited by the military to justify use of deadly force against children, much to the disgust of peace activists. The frequency of such incidents, and whether deadly force was necessary as often as it was actually used, is hotly debated.
The word sapper has basicly evolved into anyone in the military that works with explosives. The only reason why you don't hear it often anymore is because that job has basicly been taken over by combat engineers. Who clears the mine fields? Engineers. Who plants the mine fields? Engineers. Who disarms/moves/destroys unsafe ordinance? Engineers. Etc.
Got any evidence that it is the same people making both claims?
Um... the thousands of medical documentation regarding long term effects of drug use, millions of clinical trials ranging from marijuana to cocaine and the admissions of millions of people, including noted public figures (not to mention current President George W. Bush Jr.) who had taken drugs in their teenage years only to turn against it in their adulthood.
Not that it would really surprise me, but this still has nothing to do with whether terrorism would have been possible or useful for the Vietnamese.
Nguyen Van Troi, a Vietnamese terrorist turned into legendary hero by the Vietnamese government, from a link posted on Wikipedia :
On October 18, 1964, a South Vietnamese government firing squad executed Viet Cong terrorist Nguyen Van Troi after convicting him of a May 1963 unsuccessful attempt to assassinate U.S. Defense Secretary Robert McNamara and Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge.
Oh yeah, terrorism would've have no useful effect for the Vietnamese during the war huh? The assassination of the two 'masterminds' behind the Vietnam War wouldn't have helped their cause at all. /sarcasm
"How's about those who want the war go their and fight it.'
Great idea. On that idea, why not also have those who believe in brain surgery be required to perform it? Doesn't matter if you are qualified or suited to participate in it right?
Where were you when the voynix came?
Just yesterday, the UK Home Secretary was in the news saying that "we may have to modify some of our freedoms in the short-term" to protect us from evil terrorists.
None of the news media appears to have realised that "modify" is not a synonym for "reduce". Nor do John Reid's freedoms appear to have been modified in the slightest.
That's not terrorism. Those guys were directly responsible for the war. How can that be considered terrorism? Cutting off the head? Sound familiar?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Throw a football? Not everybody can be the goalkeeper all the time.
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/jd/2006/jd060811. gif
The highly professional, all volunteer force has worked very well. Do we really want to return to the Vietnam era where crucial battles are left to demoralized concripts and drug addicts? The action in Iraq was the result of carefull deliberation of those on both sides of the isle, even though the cut and run democrats would have you believe otherwise.
an ill wind that blows no good
Not really! These suicidal terrorists will stop at nothing. If we stop carrying solids and liquids on board, they will start using some kind of injectible explosive. Think breast implants, reverse liposuction, stuff swallowed or stuck where the sun does not shine. There is no way to stop a determined/lucky terrorist. Their effectiveness is multiplied by our attention, not by their actions. If a terrorist plot costs a million dollars, does a few million worth of damage and we spend billions preventing a recurrence, who is the real winner? Not us. Terrorism can only be defeated by collective action to make the world a better place. Ignore the nut cases and fools who believe killing people solves any problem.
A problem is an opportunity http://mrpogson.com
"Islam, like all religions, is a cult *based* on ancient fairy tales."
It is merely your opinion, based on your own religion, that other religions (not your own, of course) are mere "fairy tales". You statement was just another version of the arrogant "my religion good, your religion bad" statement.
Where were you when the voynix came?
The Israelis have been bombing civilian infrastructure in Lebanon, saying that the military forces there are using civilian infrastructure, making it a legitimate target. Then the Americans get caught out using UK civilian airports to refuel their planes carrying weapons of mass destruction to their buddies in Israel, and all of a sudden, big surprise, UK airports become legitimate military targets. If you live in America, and don't like these restrictions, tell your government to stop using civilian infrastructure to fight their proxy oil war in the middle east.
Cool. A response from someone who kn ows more than me.
:). He now take breastmilk "from the tap" ocasionaly but that's just once in a while. As often as 2 times a week.
We started out with a more onusual problem than presented earlier. I just didn't mention it because I was sure it's unique.
In the Hospital where we had our baby (A county Hospital in Florida) my wife got help from a "lactating nurse" and still couldn't get our son to Breastfeed. I am still not sure why. Unusual factors; Breast size 38 DD (didn't increase noticeble durin pregnance), Nipple size (around 1 inch across. I have never seen larger, seriusly). Also my wife is almost completly blind (less than 10% vision in her "good eye" and none in the other) so her aim might have frostrated him in the bigining.
Right now he is 4 weeks old and drinks breastmilk from a bottle, plus formula and seams to be doing great. He has grown some. Still wakes up every 3 to 4 hours for a feading and dusn't cry for anything but the basics (Change me, fead me
Any tips would be apriciated. Greatly.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
A response from someone who knows more than me. [...] Any tips would be apriciated. Greatly.
My wife is heavily involved (and trained) with la lechce league which is a breastfeeding charity, so I've picked up a bit of knowledge along the way...
They are international, so there may be a group near you, and if not they have a lot of info on the web: http://www.lalecheleague.org/
They may be your best chance on getting advice for your wife's particular situation - because they are specialists, concentrating just on breastfeeding (very few health professionals are in that position) they see far wider range of cases. Local leaders can get info from the wider organisation and I expect there will be people there with first hand experience of helping people in your wife's position.
Also, because they are a charity mostly run by volunteers, it shouldn't cost you anything to see what advice you can get from them.
you cannot stop terrorism by blowing up countries and killing peoples families. you can only create more terrorists. watch a movie called "peace propaganda and the promised lands" and realise WHY they are being "terrorists" in the first place, then stop doing that to them. (hey and you might like to watch a short clip on you tube, look up gallaway sky news, its funny, he hands the "reporter" her ass big time)
watch "the money masters" on google video