"A business plan based on the transaction of small pieces of paper which represent favors that have been accumulated by the bearer thereof."
Mechinisms involve the use of highly skilled engravers to produce the uniquily marked paper which will prevent the copying thereof and undermining of this system.
The "pieces of paper" value will be enforced by a "sizeable force" representing the "will of the people".
REFERENCE: patent 100042321423 "Business plan: usage of small pieces of metal as a representation method for favors"
The entire article IS relating to the legality of what was done.
The thread you are on started by wondering if the fact that it took five years was accurate.
You wrongly said that all that had to be done was to have the code copied.
There was no copying occuring.
As for the argument about the time, that was a pointless argument since there was no agreement as to wheather they werer talking about the entire project or the scanner encryption or anything else.
While his posting was irrelevant to what you were thinking about, I think you were wrong in attacking what he was posting about as there seems to be no agreement on the definition of terms in this thread.
Fact is:
1. the decryption was VERY simple
2. The other inventions involved were not particularly interesting wrt the bar code scanner.
This must not have been all they were talking about when they said 5 years.
As somebody noted elsewhere, the 5 years probably also included marketing/building the audio linking.
They did not however indicate this in their letter. I wonder exactally how much detail they've paid attention to in what is going on.
Most of us took your arguments in this thread to be that you were arguing that what was done was illegal, because it was not obvious (the kind of thing that invalidates a patent.). Sorry for the miscommunication, but please be more specific in your postings next time
Who designed it is irrelavent (they aren't copying the design and making new scanners), who marketed it is REALLY irrelavent (they aren't trying to sell something under the same name.) The distribution process is also irrelavent (they aren't trying to distribute anything) All they did is took the output of the scanner and made it into something they could use.
If somebodys bad busness model makes them loose money, it's not my problem. It's their problem and their funders problem.
If they think that they leased the things, they should have used much more maticulous methodology. A Radio Shack guy asking me "hey you want a CueCat for free" is not a lease. I find shrink wrap licenses to be crap (IANAL, but unless shirnk wrap license laws have ben passed in your state, they will have a hard time (UCITA.. look it up).
Your argument is baseless and invalid.
One should not get something for nothing (true... but these guys messed up.) One shuold not give away something and then expect everybody to use it the way they want.
True.. I didn't say each program needs to be the same... I'm saying that a bit more consistancy as to what is considered a CS program, especially with OMIS or MIS programs popping up, would be helpful.
Balance is imporant in almost everything we do. Consistancy in CS is no exception. I think that as it stands CS programs are on the too heterogenious side.
Northern Illinois University starts you out with COBOL usually and then you learn System 360 Assembler. If you make it through that then you can learn data structures and other fun things (JCL, IMS, SQL, UNIX...). (given I've heard that they've lightened up on this.. but I still believe that COBOL is required) It sounds old.. but it's a very pragmatic kinda program. (believe me... after JCL, ANY scripting language is a GODSEND)
Now, I'm a Linux person at home working in windows at work (although I've gotten some Linux stuff in here).
I definately think we need more consistancy in CS Programs.
What if we were to organize a distributed protest? Get All the users groups to send 20-25 people to protest in front of their senator and representatives offices.. or something of the like.
Do it all on the same day.. so that the small groups acting have a greater effect (just a brainstorm.. distributed commuity.. use distributed techniques, nothing new.. just why don't we do it?). I've got no experience with such things.. how hard is it to do?
(now where do we need to set up the spinlocks to make this all syncronize?)
Way to many jokes to be made here: (perhaps I should trademark this so I can sell it... better yet.. patent "The usage of punny names based on product name in the sale of overpriced proprietary hardware".)
Just wait till the fast food chain and Apple really do match up... will they have the iMac Apple pie?
Perhaps the cashier will ask "would you like linux with that?"
The computers will only come in bright yellow with a big arch over the main screen...
I don't know... A comedian, I am not... I'll go back to programming at my day job now!:)
Marx himself is quoted as saying "I am not a marxist"... I think you are confusing stallinism and lenninism (and totalinarism) with communism.
So there are no oppressed people in the US (of course not.. we like OUR brainwashing... ALL SPEACH IS FREE.. but those with more $$ have MORE FREE SPEACH on the radio and the like.. we've got a long way to go as well).
But don't misunderstand me.. FREE SPEACH IS VERY VALUABLE... but don't think that we've REALLY reached the ideal.. we haven't.
(and yes Marx was flawed but remember he was a student of Capitalism.. And alot of his princilples about capitalism are still looked at today).
How hypocritical would you be if you decided to say Linux is free, except to people in China... It's just like they have free speach.. except to speak out against the government. If you're going to lead by example, you have to do it the whole way.
At least they have some value for community. They have a long way to go to learn about treating the individual right. What a great oppertunity to learn from each other. Perhaps they will learn that the free software community is made up of highly individualistic folk, and begin to learn the values of this.
Perhaps we can learn some things about how to work together, they've got 20% of the worlds population, I believe.. it must be excrutiatingly hard to keep any kinda government together there.
Human rights... They have more blatent problems.. we mask ours in a economic system, and revisionist history. There are plenty of oppressed people in the US. And don't even begin to respond without looking into the plight of Native americans (although with casino's they might finally win the longest war of attricion there ever was!:) ).
This does not make them innoscent, they need to work to allow basic human rights. But just cause we use money to confuse our system of oppressing people, doesn't really leave us guilt free either.
Eastern Europe has been trying to become more capitalist in the last decade and the people there are suffering horribly. Perhaps it is time that we started trying to find something more moderate, and thinking creatively to solve these problems.
Working together in a common goal is a first start, but just like when working with SUN or IBM or AOL we press hard on the License issues.. when we work with the Chineese, we need to press hard on human rights. When working with them we need to take into account how each project will add or take away from that plight. Don't help put down people, but work together to help each other.
(a bit idealistic.. but if no one trys, we won't even approach our ideals.. it's too easy to cheat and be cynical.. so get over that)
Actually, I believe this does, to a certain respect. We actually filter our thoughts through language. For example, People might have 13 words for snow, while we just call it snow. What they express in 1 word, we express in many.. for example (not actually a real language) they might say gicka, for what we would call "snow that has melted a bit on top and re-frozen".
The meta-language is unknown to us, because we don't really know how we store concepts, but indeed those concepts are the metadata (thus this UNL better have good resolution when it comes to concepts).
Language can be limiting in this respect, as well. In one native american language there was no differentiation between orange and red (I believe, I'm working on memory here, it might be 2 other colours). When native speakers were tested, they had a hard time differentiating between colours. This is a case, where the filter has shaped the meta-data.
This will probably be moderated down as unrelated, but it fits this thread
I've submitted stories about it, here at slashdot, and they haven't put them up. Babylon5 has been getting the bad end of the stick in relation to TNT.. aparently TNT wants more sex, violence, and other wrestling/cowboy related stuff.
The first episode was horrible but half of that is TNT's fault.
I kinda compare crusade to the first season of B5, kinda crappy but can see it as a build up to something good.
Where I live, there is either cable or no TV reception at all. I've actually canceled cable and given up on TV. There are times that you miss certain shows, but that's when you get a friend to tape it (have VCR and TV still in apt). There are other times, like now, when you appreciate that you aren't being bombarded with all that crap.
It's a highly recommendable experience. I frequently wish that it was possible to subscribe to cable only for particular shows. (of course then they'd probably crank up the price of cable immensly.. pay per view shows... eek)
Still I live above an ISP, the net has taken alot of what used to be TV watching time, it's ethernetted right in.
Still, I think the thing that makes the big differance is that we don't just surf.. when we watch tv, on tape, it's something that we were wanting to watch, and nothing more.
Spend alot more time reading and working on things on the machine!
As a person who is somewhat open minded to collectivism/communisim (no conclusions yet), I sympathise with their take on things, but the freedom that comes from the consumers and the laborers having more control in things, does not make up for the human right violations that tend to occur in communist countrys.
Every collective is made up of individuals, to forget that is to void the whole reason for the collective in the first place. I think every Free or Open Software person would be aghast at the oppresion that happens in China.
It's kinda a strange thing, we co-operate because we chose to as individuals, none of us are pressed. Most of us probably would not co-operate if forced. This is what China seems to forget.
Individuals CHOOSING to work together, that's what makes good software.
China could learn alot from this.
(Go read "No Contest" and other books by Alphie Kohn... good stuff)
This is slightly off topic, but why is it that IBM says they are really behind linux, but I keep hearing about IBM switching to windows NT boxes internally? (no hope for OS/2 internally?)
A little more on topic, I'm glad that Lotus is finally getting things ported? Believe it or not, I want to see a port of Lotus Approach.
Slashdot Mirror
Mechinisms involve the use of highly skilled engravers to produce the uniquily marked paper which will prevent the copying thereof and undermining of this system.
The "pieces of paper" value will be enforced by a "sizeable force" representing the "will of the people".
REFERENCE: patent 100042321423 "Business plan: usage of small pieces of metal as a representation method for favors"
I had to look it up:
http://www.cs.iastate.edu/jva/jva-archive.shtml
And if he did, why isn't it on this list?
The entire article IS relating to the legality of what was done.
The thread you are on started by wondering if the fact that it took five years was accurate.
You wrongly said that all that had to be done was to have the code copied.
There was no copying occuring.
As for the argument about the time, that was a pointless argument since there was no agreement as to wheather they werer talking about the entire project or the scanner encryption or anything else.
While his posting was irrelevant to what you were thinking about, I think you were wrong in attacking what he was posting about as there seems to be no agreement on the definition of terms in this thread.
Fact is:
1. the decryption was VERY simple
2. The other inventions involved were not particularly interesting wrt the bar code scanner.
This must not have been all they were talking about when they said 5 years.
As somebody noted elsewhere, the 5 years probably also included marketing/building the audio linking.
They did not however indicate this in their letter. I wonder exactally how much detail they've paid attention to in what is going on.
Most of us took your arguments in this thread to be that you were arguing that what was done was illegal, because it was not obvious (the kind of thing that invalidates a patent.). Sorry for the miscommunication, but please be more specific in your postings next time
Lets see if we agree.
How quickly it was broken is irrelavant.
There are no IP rights being broken.
The drivers are legal according to our interpretation.
Is this right?
Who designed it is irrelavent (they aren't copying the design and making new scanners), who marketed it is REALLY irrelavent (they aren't trying to sell something under the same name.) The distribution process is also irrelavent (they aren't trying to distribute anything) All they did is took the output of the scanner and made it into something they could use.
If somebodys bad busness model makes them loose money, it's not my problem. It's their problem and their funders problem.
If they think that they leased the things, they should have used much more maticulous methodology. A Radio Shack guy asking me "hey you want a CueCat for free" is not a lease. I find shrink wrap licenses to be crap (IANAL, but unless shirnk wrap license laws have ben passed in your state, they will have a hard time (UCITA.. look it up).
Your argument is baseless and invalid.
One should not get something for nothing (true... but these guys messed up.) One shuold not give away something and then expect everybody to use it the way they want.
What about electronic paper as display.. wouldn't that drop the price and power consumption?
I think it could still happen.
True.. I didn't say each program needs to be the same... I'm saying that a bit more consistancy as to what is considered a CS program, especially with OMIS or MIS programs popping up, would be helpful.
Balance is imporant in almost everything we do. Consistancy in CS is no exception. I think that as it stands CS programs are on the too heterogenious side.
You'd find my school interesting.
Northern Illinois University starts you out with COBOL usually and then you learn System 360 Assembler. If you make it through that then you can learn data structures and other fun things (JCL, IMS, SQL, UNIX...).
(given I've heard that they've lightened up on this.. but I still believe that COBOL is required)
It sounds old.. but it's a very pragmatic kinda program. (believe me... after JCL, ANY scripting language is a GODSEND)
Now, I'm a Linux person at home working in windows at work (although I've gotten some Linux stuff in here).
I definately think we need more consistancy in CS Programs.
What if we were to organize a distributed protest?
Get All the users groups to send 20-25 people to protest in front of their senator and representatives offices.. or something of the like.
Do it all on the same day.. so that the small groups acting have a greater effect (just a brainstorm.. distributed commuity.. use distributed techniques, nothing new.. just why don't we do it?). I've got no experience with such things.. how hard is it to do?
(now where do we need to set up the spinlocks to make this all syncronize?)
Why dosen't somebody submit the NVidia drivers that were given to the XFree86 people.. from what I hear they might just win! :)
Why dosen't somebody submit the NVidia drivers that we given to the XFree86 people.. from what I hear they might just win! :)
I think he's saying that they didn't vote for Abraham Lincoln...
They voted for all other republicans except Abraham Lincoln...
It is a strange phrasing though.
Way to many jokes to be made here:
:)
(perhaps I should trademark this so I can sell it... better yet.. patent "The usage of punny names based on product name in the sale of overpriced proprietary hardware".)
Just wait till the fast food chain and Apple really do match up... will they have the iMac Apple pie?
Perhaps the cashier will ask "would you like linux with that?"
The computers will only come in bright yellow with a big arch over the main screen...
I don't know... A comedian, I am not... I'll go back to programming at my day job now!
Marx himself is quoted as saying "I am not a marxist"... I think you are confusing stallinism and lenninism (and totalinarism) with communism.
So there are no oppressed people in the US
(of course not.. we like OUR brainwashing... ALL SPEACH IS FREE.. but those with more $$ have MORE FREE SPEACH on the radio and the like.. we've got a long way to go as well).
But don't misunderstand me.. FREE SPEACH IS VERY VALUABLE... but don't think that we've REALLY reached the ideal.. we haven't.
(and yes Marx was flawed but remember he was a student of Capitalism.. And alot of his princilples about capitalism are still looked at today).
How hypocritical would you be if you decided to say Linux is free, except to people in China...
:) ).
It's just like they have free speach.. except to speak out against the government. If you're going to lead by example, you have to do it the whole way.
At least they have some value for community. They have a long way to go to learn about treating the individual right. What a great oppertunity to learn from each other. Perhaps they will learn that the free software community is made up of highly individualistic folk, and begin to learn the values of this.
Perhaps we can learn some things about how to work together, they've got 20% of the worlds population, I believe.. it must be excrutiatingly hard to keep any kinda government together there.
Human rights... They have more blatent problems.. we mask ours in a economic system, and revisionist history. There are plenty of oppressed people in the US. And don't even begin to respond without looking into the plight of Native americans (although with casino's they might finally win the longest war of attricion there ever was!
This does not make them innoscent, they need to work to allow basic human rights. But just cause we use money to confuse our system of oppressing people, doesn't really leave us guilt free either.
Eastern Europe has been trying to become more capitalist in the last decade and the people there are suffering horribly. Perhaps it is time that we started trying to find something more moderate, and thinking creatively to solve these problems.
Working together in a common goal is a first start, but just like when working with SUN or IBM or AOL we press hard on the License issues.. when we work with the Chineese, we need to press hard on human rights. When working with them we need to take into account how each project will add or take away from that plight. Don't help put down people, but work together to help each other.
(a bit idealistic.. but if no one trys, we won't even approach our ideals.. it's too easy to cheat and be cynical.. so get over that)
Actually, I believe this does, to a certain respect. We actually filter our thoughts through language. For example, People might have 13 words for snow, while we just call it snow. What they express in 1 word, we express in many.. for example (not actually a real language) they might say gicka, for what we would call "snow that has melted a bit on top and re-frozen".
The meta-language is unknown to us, because we don't really know how we store concepts, but indeed those concepts are the metadata (thus this UNL better have good resolution when it comes to concepts).
Language can be limiting in this respect, as well. In one native american language there was no differentiation between orange and red (I believe, I'm working on memory here, it might be 2 other colours). When native speakers were tested, they had a hard time differentiating between colours.
This is a case, where the filter has shaped the meta-data.
Quite an interesting topic area
A better link (IMHO) about what's happening is at
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~fleming/
Crusade just did a parody of X-files
Perhaps Crusade would be a show to watch...
oh wait.. TNT canceled it before it even started for not having enough sex and violence.
This will probably be moderated down as unrelated, but it fits this thread
I've submitted stories about it, here at slashdot, and they haven't put them up. Babylon5 has been getting the bad end of the stick in relation to TNT.. aparently TNT wants more sex, violence, and other wrestling/cowboy related stuff.
The first episode was horrible but half of that is TNT's fault.
I kinda compare crusade to the first season of B5, kinda crappy but can see it as a build up to something good.
Check out The lurker's guide for more info.
Have fun
Where I live, there is either cable or no TV reception at all. I've actually canceled cable and given up on TV. There are times that you miss certain shows, but that's when you get a friend to tape it (have VCR and TV still in apt). There are other times, like now, when you appreciate that you aren't being bombarded with all that crap.
It's a highly recommendable experience.
I frequently wish that it was possible to subscribe to cable only for particular shows.
(of course then they'd probably crank up the price of cable immensly.. pay per view shows... eek)
Still I live above an ISP, the net has taken alot of what used to be TV watching time, it's ethernetted right in.
Still, I think the thing that makes the big differance is that we don't just surf.. when we watch tv, on tape, it's something that we were wanting to watch, and nothing more.
Spend alot more time reading and working on things on the machine!
I recommend it.
Give it a try.
As a person who is somewhat open minded to collectivism/communisim (no conclusions yet), I sympathise with their take on things, but the freedom that comes from the consumers and the laborers having more control in things, does not make up for the human right violations that tend to occur in communist countrys.
Every collective is made up of individuals, to forget that is to void the whole reason for the collective in the first place. I think every Free or Open Software person would be aghast at the oppresion that happens in China.
It's kinda a strange thing, we co-operate because we chose to as individuals, none of us are pressed. Most of us probably would not co-operate if forced. This is what China seems to forget.
Individuals CHOOSING to work together, that's what makes good software.
China could learn alot from this.
(Go read "No Contest" and other books by Alphie Kohn... good stuff)
This is slightly off topic, but why is it that IBM says they are really behind linux, but I keep hearing about IBM switching to windows NT boxes internally? (no hope for OS/2 internally?)
A little more on topic, I'm glad that Lotus is finally getting things ported? Believe it or not, I want to see a port of Lotus Approach.
Or perhaps someone can suggest a free equivalent?
People always hide behind this like it is a truth.
It's a theory.
Ah, the worlds greatest zealotry areas:
GUI systems
Computer OS's
Politics
Economics
and Religon itself
Most people hate it when religous folks force their perspective on others. I hate it equally when people force their economic beliefs on me.
It dosen't always work that way.
As long as you are throwing out capitalism buzz words, I'll spit out "MONOPOLY".
Thank you, and good night.
Don't forget the great smoke off. Shel seemed to have a funy way of releiving tension.
I think writing cutsy stuff all the time lent him to strange other works. I liked that other stuff alot (uncle shelby.. The great smoke off)
Sigh... Dr. Seuss Died a few years ago.
Hehe.. picture Dr. Seuss and Shel in whatever afterlife you believe in.
Must be quite the bit of work they are writing!