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Revolutionary Chinese take on Linux
oneeyedman writes "Maybe this will give support to the people who
think that Linux is a communist plot. Salon has an item about
an article called Anti-Microsoft 'subculture'"
that ran in the China Youth Daily. In this reading of the situation, Linux users are angry peasants rising with pitchforks aimed at Microsoft's "hegemony." "
So, Gates is a paper tiger running dog? The Linux movement is the long march of the revolution? Hmmmmmm, I kind of like the idea.
Viva la Revolucion !!!
How could they miss such easy opportunities? How can you mention 'hegemony' without working in 'imperial' and 'America'? How could they miss that Microsoft is located in *Washington* (just not D.C.)?
;)
Man, I pine for the days of good commie propaganda. Yeah, just look at Eisenstein's "Alexander Nevsky". Baby-burning Germans. Noble worker: "I'll make 40 swords and give them away for FREE!"
Shoot, even the Sandanistas had a clever twist with Liberation Theology. Jesus as socialist revolutionary, even decked out in the proper colors of black and red. Pretty good stuff.
Ah well, this is just the youth paper. Maybe the adults can do better. I don't know what I'll do when Fidel is gone. It's hard to find a good Communist these days, and these new tin-horned dictators just don't have the 'vision thing'. Saddam is a lamer, even if he is Satan's lover. Slobodan? Puhlease. Folded like a house of cards in wind tunnel. Damn, I miss the Good Ole Days
... so the Windows-World is actually communistic.
Microsoft is a global company operating in a fairly standardized manner. Its business success is generally acknowledged.
...and the methods of maintaining that success have been called into question by the US Department of Justice and 19 states.
I guess the bend here might be to suggest that ALL capitalist enterprises are the same as Microsoft?
'china youth daily' is a propaganda tool of
their government. if you dont understand what its like in china
maybe you should read a few books about it or meet some people
who have lived there.
so why would this be written? i dont know. all i can say is that
if the communist party had its chance, it would love to build an OS and force every single person
under its control to use 'the chinese communist party operating system' under pain of torture/imprisionment. the problem
here is not bad design vs good design vs anything else, its
about who controls people's lives. a transnational corp (MS),an oppressive government (US, china, EU), or they themselves.
There are good office automation apps (word processor/spreadsheet/etc) available for Linux and Unix.
=> Star Office
=> Applixware
=> WordPerfect (soon to be the whole suite)
[[[sarcastic flame mode on]]]
M$'s office automation packages with their proprietary file formats and updates every 2 years or so with backwards-incompatibility are like heroine & crack cocaine. As soon as the pusher wants more money he changes the formula to force all his junkies to buy all their software all over again to stay compatible with the rest of the crowd, all the while brainwashing you with more and more security holes, poor design and lack of thorough QA testing. I guess its OK if the whole world is hooked on smackk as long as its all the same flavor of junk and I'm the only one selling it to you, huh?.
Gill "Who's yo' daddy" Bates
The Chinese are pretty hip for the last Communist superpower left standing. With software piracy running rampant in China, I'm surprised Linux hasn't caught on there with a vengance. Why not pay for software and be breaking the law (Which will get you shot in a lot of Communist countries) when you can not pay for software legally?
If you're bored on an afternoon, try this: .cu (Cuba). Now telnet to each host on port 80 and try entering some invalid command and see what web servers they run ;-) I hope if Linux goes on to dominate the Internet, as communism did to dominate China, we won't have a cultural revolution.
run host -l cu. That will list all the hosts with extension
...
It's unfortunate most Americans, or even the north western world, only seem to think there are two extremes. One, capitalism with little government intervention, or state socialism in the style of the Soviet Union, China, and Cuba. This is untrue however. Many philosophers, when developing the socialist political theories felt state socialism would be very bad. For obvious reasons, all of the control of what workers produce and are free to do is in the hands of the state. And as they predicted, the "socialist" governments that arose (thanks to back stabbing by the Bolsheviks) ended up becoming big brother. So, people think, "well, obviously THAT is bad, so the only logical choice is capitalism with no government intervention. The world will be perfect then!" The style of corporations themselves are fascist. Can you speak up to your boss? Do you dare talk back to the CEO of the giant corporation you work for? Is he democratically elected? Are any of the people above you democratically elected? Just imagine a world where these mobile empires exist...but likely with only a few very large ones. The CEO is the dictator but he has advisors and can be overthrown if he doesn't perform ruthlessly enough for the corporation to grow and continue to make massive profits. "The government says we have free speech!" But you spend most of your day at work and are limited to certain behaviour and speech. The corporations don't have to abide by free speech (hey, the government can't intervene with the good ol corporations!), so they can censor whatever they wish. What good is free speech when you spend most of your life working under a giant corporation? Great world that'll be! Oh, wait...it's pretty much like America now. And these people praise Ayn Rand like she's the only political philosopher to ever exist [well, besides Marx who they bash (and therefore anything non right wing is wrong!) based on the state socialist systems that came to be]. Marx, Proudhon, Bakunin, Godwin, Kropotkin, Goldman, Bookchin...who are they? They're all wrong! Rand knows all! So, what is left? That evil, terrorist, chaotic, political philosophy barely anyone understands but think they understand it all. ANARCHISM (echo). "People will run wild in the streets! they'll muder each other! They'll steal everything! It'll never work! It never has! It's unholy! What about crime? Work???" These are the typical uninformed responses people usually spew when they hear the term...knowing absolutely nothing about it nor it's history. It has been in existence in the past with millions of participants and everything worked out fine. Contrary to (force fed) beliefs of terror and chaos, they turned out great. Productivity rose. Worker moral rose. Less hours of work. innovation happened. Many of the problems with crime today are related directly to capitalism. Why are the poor more likely to commit crime? Why are more poor people in prison? Why are gangs mainly poor inner city youth? Bioligical malfunctions? Or is it because they don't have the money to afford things they need and want. You never hear about millionaires and billionaires robbing banks and breaking into homes or stealing items from stores. Wonder why. Of course random acts of violence related to rage or mental disorders will still occur (although very rare even in this situation...the media just loves to focus on the very rare instances and blow it up like it's a huge epidemic everywhere) but these situations will obviously be dealt with. Anyway, if anyone is interested I suggest checking out the Anarchy FAQ here. Although I expect is hostile responses fom people too lazy to read up on it, and who are to arrogant to accept the fact their current beliefs are possibly "wrong" (you could completly understand the theory/practice after reading up on it, and still not believe in it or support it of course). Oh well.
You kept forgetting to capitalize "Individual" in your message up there.
I see you've not used an Office Suite from Microsoft any time recently.
You kinda spin out of control in the last part of your message. Try to work on a more coordinated dance.
Thanks to the good ol backstabbing Bolsheviks, they managed to suppress and destroy the larger Anarchist movement that really allowed them to get in power in the first place. The Bolsheviks just took control over the military and police and such and cracked down on the Anarchists once they took over the thrown. Then good ol Lenin comes along and tells the people they don't know what's good for them and forces them to stay. Then he puts in effect state capitalism. The state ends up having complete control over the citizens. This is what many of the Libertarian Socialists predicted would happen with State Socialism. It's unfortunate these people completly ruined the idea of socialism (with the help of western capitalist propaganda as well) so now anything left, people automatically (as if programmed by someone else) assume is bad and immediately think of state socialist countries like China and Russia. State socialism is bad, but what about libertarian socialism (and for all of the Ayn Rand people, the term libertarian socialist existed before the American Libertarian party...the term libertarian does not mean anarcho-capitalism nor does socialism mean state socialism)?
I certainly hope your comparisns to those people (the Bolsheviks) was a joke.
Well, this is a safe place to say it.
I've always thought Slashdot was more of a Trotskyite kinda place, though. So make sure you watch out for the Stalinists.
the dead fat guy is jolly old Chairman Mao.
I guess force is an acceptable way to accomplish your objectives (or satisfy your whims).
Like... Microsoft doesn't give people choice, so don't let anyone use Windows. Brilliant.
the dead fat guy is jolly old Chairman Mao...
This article at OsOpinion says no, in a round about way.
/ CoreyWinesett2.html
http://www.osopinion.com/Opinions/CoreyWinesett
By your reasoning, no self-respecting American publisher would stoop to the level of putting out an article on either archaeology or linux. Since when did you become such an expert on Chinese society or do you really think the US media provides a complete or unbiased of of China? I also wonder how you can get all this from a poorly translated article that missed most of its original content.
As a Chinese, i gota say that both of them guys are very brilliant people. Jackie Chan is no way arrogant. He may not be a better fighter, but Jackie Chan took kung-fu movies to a new level by introducing humor and fun rather than plain old traditional matches.
Don't get me wrong, i like Jet Li, too. But in terms of creative talent, Jackie Chan is the man.
Think about it.
We have the all right in the world to dictate to everyone else about tolerance; especially if they are dirt poor.
Corey's generalizing people.
He compares a handfull of dickheads who control
the country because they have military support
(the LARGEST army of the world) to the 1 billion+
people living in China.
As a Chinese programmer I'm using Slackware
for years now and I'm always open for new ideas.
People like Corey block programmers like me from
realizing ideas by generalizing me with a bunch
of communists who I've never met and don't like
anyway.
By the way, I don't like the article.
First of all, I'm not a peasant.
Secondly, who cares about Bill??
I just make cool programz, hack the system to
make it perform better and I surely don't take
effort to overthrow Micro$oft. Why would we
compare Linux to Windows after all?
They're different and the goal of Linux is to
give us a system of our own which we can hack
and program, in stead of kick M$ out.
I know Micro$oft will be a small company with
little influence within ten years and W2000 is
their doom anyway, so...big deal.
We're not the ones who put their lights out,
they're doing it themselves via their "products".
bCke
ps. Corey should take a look in the mirror to
see the real pundit.
Like I have said, Microsoft has taken on the China software industry very seriously. That is not joke or propagandas anymore.
Using Linux is still a good idea in China. If Micro$oft has trouble making money there (piracy) they will not have much of an incentive to make Chinese language support. On the other hand, some hacker (I imagine somebody in a crowded college dormitory, surviving on instant noodles and green tea) could produce Linux Chinese support, and become famous- maybe even get a job in the West or in Taiwan. On the other hand, somebody who does that with Micro$oft is in danger of being brought in on some crackdown they have because Micro$oft has decided to make money talk.
Uhhh...socialism is not 50/50 capitalism and communism. Some parties in the US at least, use socialist in their name but really seek to restrict corporations, put more tax money into social programs, etc. This is not socialism. What happened in the USSR, Cuba, and China are not really socialism...socialism means public ownership of the means of production. Not state ownership. Not half state, half private. Completly public. With the standard, unwritten definition, true socialism is basically Anarchism, but to distinguish itself from the "New" definition, Anarchism is labeled Libertarian Socialism (this was done before the US Libertarian party ever existed)...or just Anarchism.
"Although Solzhenitsen gives a very good acount of what happened in the GULags, and is one of my favorite authors mainly because of Achipalag GULag odin dva e tre (I II and III), he is also a very biased in his opinion."
Yes, I can see where being locked away in a gulag for a large portion of one's productive life would "bias" an author.
Ugh. Take this crap somewhere else, Comrade. Haven't you people done enough damage already?
Slight snag on this scenario, all these chinese need to buy computers first:) A more realistic pc breakdown is by how many produced, sold, & estimates of # of potential buyers with incomes
that can afford one. Cuts down China's impact I'd say.
A better analogy would be the anarcho-syndicalists, based on the writings of Bakunin and Kropotkin. The anarcho-syndicalists rejected structured leadership altogether, choosing instead to select leaders locally for a given farm, factory, or other work unit. Leaders are thus chosen for their leadership, not their political skills, and have no authority over those they do not work with directly. This much more closely parallels the structure of open source software projects.
I agree. It's a shame that so many people are "brainwashed" (not that they'd be aware of it) to detest anything remotely left they always try to compare Linux to the greatness of "Libertarian" Capitalism...which makes me want to puke.
The best line in the sino-site was
>for two CDs to sell for over ¥10,000 is not acceptable to ordinary users.
In China, the value of the software is judged by its cost of distribution. Their market focus is on the actual physical product, not on the intellectual-financial product. If this is an actual Chinese prejudice, then it is like India, whose patent system allows a patent of process but does not allow a patent of product concept or an idea.
Along with software developers, who cry piracy (you sold my $1,000 NT for $2 cost of CD), this concept drives the US pharmaseutical companies nuts. In the best MS fashion, when produced by the western producers, the "coctail" for treatment of aids costs about $100 per day. In the best linux fashion, when the identical product is produced in India, it costs about $2 per day. That is because India only recognizes the patent of a production process. Each producer can protect his production advantage, but the idea's are all gnu.
Far as I am concerned, there is also no process more powerful than gnu. To me it's a strong case of capitalism in the traditional physical sense (as opposed to the financial sense), in that the energy-machinery which is generated by an initial capital in the gnu generates even more powerful energy-machinery down the line, resulting in greater physical wealth and wider distribution for everyone.
Abraham Lincoln would have dug linux. It builds things. Meanwhile, kids in US schools are still trying to find the answer within Bill's pretty icons, and his focus-group purified dialogs. Bahhhhh!
Not offering the source is a small inconvenience. If someone were to actually be interested in obtaining the source, he/she would probably have the means to do so (d/l off the internet). I doubt the average Chinese user of Linux would really care to have something for a programming skill they don't have (same thing for an average Win9x user w/ the source to Win9x). Though, if I'm wrong, that would be great considering that they may write some very interesting code.
Slight snag on this scenario, all these chinese need to buy computers first:) A more realistic pc breakdown is by how many produced, sold, & estimates of # of potential buyers with incomes
;-)
that can afford one. Cuts down China's impact I'd say.
Well, not yet but China will be the emerging market in the next millenium. Of course, even a mere 10 years is a long time in the computer industry. But I think you're forgetting about one of the attractions of Linux - it runs on cheap, relatively low-powered hardware. Well, personally I have a preference of FreeBSD but I have the choice...
And what exactly do you mean by "China's impact" - are you implying that they will use their new-found computing power to subvert the free west? Will they use it in vast Beowulf-like clusters to design new weapons?
I think you've forgotten what the GNU/Linux movement is about.
-t.
Yeah, Communism has its roots in fighting rich bastards like M$ because it used to be the rich and powerful who told the peasantry what to think, what to believe, how to behave, etc. M$ has been doing this to us w/ its methods of "competing" in the OS market. Linux is "the people's" OS because it was developed "by the people." Therefore, Linux = Communism (minus all the evil oppressive stuff).
There is an old Chinese saying/proverb that goes something like this; "Families of wealth typically have a thief in their lineage." This is true in many instances. Bill Gates stole from Steve Jobs who stole from Xerox Corp. (See TNT's "Pirates of Silicon Valley"). The early 19th and 20th Century tycoons in the US used unethical methods to achieve their wealth and maintain them. There are many more examples but I'll restrict myself to these.
Maybe not but there will likely be someone who they know or will get to know who does have the necessary skills. Remember, China is still an emerging economy w/ not much of it's potential realised yet. It's kind of like having only DOS to work with and eventually they will get the hang of it. Windows may be pirated, but if adopted into the gov't and university level, those users will likely bring this preference to their homes and it'll have the "trickle down effect."
Really? I remember during the '80s that they successfully lobbied to get import quotas imposed on Japanese cars because the imports were able to be sold cheaper and were of better quality while the American-made cars were rotting away under the gov't protection. Yes, things have changed but not after all that patriotic BS spread around and a few lives taken (remember the Vincent Chin case?) and the Japanese auto companies building factories here.
... and all the problems caused by it. We (US) invaded Latin American countries for OUR own benefit and propted up dictators friendly to US, invaded Asian countries, again for OUR own benefit, etc. Basically, we're POOR representatives to be preaching to China about DEMOCRACY and HUMAN RIGHTS.
... or they will be when China is admitted to the World Trade Organization.
Consistant yes, evolved no. Where's the multiple virtual screens and a virtual scrollable desktop ... or latex ...) are slow as hell compared to rxvt or xterm...
(this depends on the video card, it shouldn't) ? A very simple idea and extremely useful, haven't seen them in windows. Ugly as hell and the shell windows (the most important ones, you know the ones where you type g++
Every application is littered with toolboxes (and other mysterious UI elements) and people get lost in the functionality, maybe it suits the american mentality of as much of everything as possible, but I like things simple and efficient. M$ focuses mostly on the bells and whistles but the fundamentals go unchecked.
What I dislike about opinions, why do they have to be so black and white, why not have some anti-alias, some grays... :)
So how about a society that is inbetween, where you worked for the government (never have to worry about essentials) but in your spare time you could make extra money which would work in a much smaller economy, and of course freedom of speech and voting (2 easy community contributions). So that you work during some days and then in other days you could run a small business. Much like today how students go to school and then in their spare time they are doing art or creating software, or running other kinds of businesses. People like bill gates could be the richest person in the community, but not so rich that other people are poor or are boroughing money (giving new meaning to the name "bills"). With this a government can properly support peoples alternate interests, but not so much that it consumes the person so that they become poor.
The idea of communism fits fine as the "Linux movement", but there is no ideal government that does real communism, their implementations of communism are flawed not communism itself.
Maybe true communism only fits in a virtual world.
American reporters can write whatever they want but publishers tend to limit debate to within "safer parameters" and suppress "unpopular" opinions and facts.
The way I originally read the title of this article ("Revolutionary Chinese take on Linux"), it sounded like Chinese revolutionaries were staging an assault on Linux...
Microsoft has already taken on China's software industry. They started sueing companies that use Windows illegal all over the country. That make Windows, in fact, VERY expensive to use. On the contrary, linux, is still free.
josepha48 wrote:
.doc file formats. If you're lucky, you can sometimes even avoid Word then.
If windows 2000 doesn't cost $2000 and it were to sell for $50 and has all this and included MS Office, and Dev Studio, and IIS, and a built in scripting language, and all that Linux has and 200 days of uptime it may be worth buying.
I disagree, since Linux (or FreeBSD for that matter) would still have three big benefits over such a Windows system: It's better written, more stable, and Free.
Fact is the only reason anyone is tied to Microsoft is becuase we almost all use Office and Word.
Speak for yourself. The fact is that many of us don't use Word except for those times when we have to deal with some bozo who insists on sending everything in one of the many Microsoft
----
Open mind, insert foot.
Posted by generic kewl tech reference:
I was expecting something along the lines of "Arise, you cramp-fingered proletariat coders! You have nothing to lose but your licensing agreements! Cast off the chains of the imperialist running dogs at Microsoft and stand blinking in the unfamiliar sunlight of revolution!"
Man, you just don't get Communist movements like you did in the old days anymore...
Though everyone seems to be joking about this, as a chinese Linux user, i do think this could be an important step leading into Linus' World Domination plan ;)
;) (there's chinese KDE already)
;)
China is one of the biggest, if not *the* biggest market in the computer industry right now, if Linux can really penetrate into the Chinese market, well, half of the world would be using Linux on their desktops
Linux, because of its price/stability, would definitely appealing to the minds of budget-conscious chinese entrepeneurs (heh, free unix vs. $5000+ NT). As Linux is slowly getting more popular in Hong Kong(that's where i am from), hopefully that would continue well into the Mainland China and other parts of Asia (ie. singapore, etc.)
I think one of the biggest tasks we should work on right now is getting better Chinese support within Linux/X. Avalible GNU chinese inputs kits released by taiwan's Linux User groups are a good direction of what we should work on since commerical/Windoze solutions are quite expensive. multi-lingual, CJK (chinese, japanese, korean) X servers would also be interesting.
If Linux's chinese support gets to be as good as its japanese support (the japanese linux/*bsd hackers are amazing), i think Linux would be well on its way to world domination...
duncan
Though everyone seems to be joking about this, as a chinese Linux user, i do think this could be an important step leading into Linus' World Domination plan.
;)
;)
China is one of the biggest, if not *the* biggest market in the computer industry right now, if Linux can really penetrate into the Chinese market, well, half of the world would be using Linux on their desktops
Linux has already won in terms of price in the budget-conscious chinese entrepeneurs against NT (heh, free unix vs. $5000+ NT) . Linux is slowly getting more popular in Hong Kong already(that's where i am from) and hopefully that would continue into the Mainland China.
I think one of the biggest tasks we should work on is getting better Chinese support within Linux/X. Avalible GNU chinese inputs kits released by taiwan's Linux User groups are a good direction that we should work on.
If Linux's chinese support gets to be as good as its japanese support (the japanese linux/*bsd hackers are amazing), i think Linux would be well on its way to world domination...
duncan
--
--
=8^
Hadn't the Chinese government "standardized" on Microsoft Windows a year or two ago as their "official" OS, during one of Bill Gates' visits there?
Phil Fraering "Humans. Go Fig." - Rita
(currently testing something about signatures here)
I have to disagree with this assessment, if only because it conflicts with Lenin's greatest contribution to practical communism - the concept of the revolutionary vanguard. The basic idea is simple... get a hard core cadre who will show up at the small, boring party functions where party officials are elected. It doesn't take many to take over internal control of any political party. A recent version of this, although they would take great umbrage at being linked to Leninist practice, is the fundamentalist Christian takeover of the Republican Party, simply by showing up at those boring party meetings and voting on the leadership. Needless to say, i don't see many giant corporations being secretly taken over by open-source fanatics.
A better analogy would be the anarcho-syndicalists, based on the writings of Bakunin and Kropotkin. The anarcho-syndicalists rejected structured leadership altogether, choosing instead to select leaders locally for a given farm, factory, or other work unit. Leaders are thus chosen for their leadership, not their political skills, and have no authority over those they do not work with directly. This much more closely parallels the structure of open source software projects.
---
Hand me that airplane glue and I'll tell you another story.
"All power eminates from the barrel of a Gnu." - Chairman Richard "Mao Mixmaster" Stallman
"Trademarks are the heraldry of the new feudalism."
>And any process that takes ten years will
>get to its destination way, way too late.
Don't tell George Lucas.
- alec
perl -nle 'setpwent;crypt($_,$c)eq$c&&print"$u=$_"while($u,
The blood of the martyrs shall water the fields of the Free!
Well I never saw Drunken Master.
:-o
But the sequel (DM II) is pretty amazing.
No, Jet Lee is not in it. Jackie is. I've only
seen it in US stores on LaserDisc. Viewed it at
an arthouse.
I saw the original drunken master vid sittin on
a shelf at Circuit City
-kabloie
Always wanted to say that...
a slap in the face to the computer industry just like bjj was to the martial arts world ...
support gun control: take guns from cops
IIRC the SR's were huge but disorganized, the Bolsheviks were a small (smaller in number than the Mensheviks!).
Linux is more like the SR's (linux is like Makhno, Stallman is Bakunin!).
BeOS is like Milukov and his party
Apple is like the Bolsheviks
FreeBSD are like Mensheviks
Microsoft is like the tzarist govt., Ballmer is Rasputin.
Oh what fun, but your post is full of factual errors and extreme opinions and there isn't any real parallel to draw. Bolsheviks were nothing more than a pack of ruthless thugs that picked up the pieces after the 1917 revolution.
support gun control: take guns from cops
That could be why. Think of how much more fun it was to drink it is before you are old enough to buy alcohol! :)
As a person who is somewhat open minded to collectivism/communisim (no conclusions yet), I sympathise with their take on things, but the freedom that comes from the consumers and the laborers having more control in things, does not make up for the human right violations that tend to occur in communist countrys.
Every collective is made up of individuals, to forget that is to void the whole reason for the collective in the first place. I think every Free or Open Software person would be aghast at the oppresion that happens in China.
It's kinda a strange thing, we co-operate because we chose to as individuals, none of us are pressed. Most of us probably would not co-operate if forced. This is what China seems to forget.
Individuals CHOOSING to work together, that's what makes good software.
China could learn alot from this.
(Go read "No Contest" and other books by Alphie Kohn... good stuff)
Lessee, upper management decides on deadlines,
and us lowly techno-peasants, who are lucky if
we are consulted on how long it will take,
and are almost *never* asked whether something's
doable, or even whether it *should* be done,
get to do the work.
Yup, sounds right.
Lackey: Sire! The peasants are revolting!
Bill the G: They *certainly* are....
mark "you knew that was coming"
Yes, but it takes two to make war. Or are you forgetting the multinational invasion of Russia at the hands of the UK, France, Germany, US, Poland during the civil war? Are you going to blame this invasion, and the subsequent atrocities committed by the White army on the Bolsheviks as well?
The "millions of starved peasants" came later, with the Ukraine famine during the Stalinist period, when Stalin collectivised agriculture. You could try to get your facts straight.
Finally, yes, Lenin organised Gulags, otherwise known as "labour camps for criminals". The US had (has?) them too, and they were originally invented by the Brits during the Boer War.
"The software industry will give us a conclusion in the next 10 years."
Interesting way of thinking - that there will be a conclusion, and that it will take ten years to get there.
I don't think there is ever anything as definite as a conclusion in this biz. And any process that takes ten years will get to its destination way, way too late.
D
----
While I can see why this would be easily said and adopted by Chinese pundits, there are certainly a few differences...
Linux is free, open-source, [insert favorite buzzword here] for the common good. Now, many communist regimes have been idealized and started under the same pretense. However, I'm not aware of any communist government that has ever succeeded. [socialist != communist] Why? Because in the end, the chairman, the politburo, whatever you want to call the concentration of power at the top of the food chain, has succumbed to his own power trip, and wielded the power for his own political/social gain, as opposed to that of the people. In this sense, the people are a commune by name only.
Communism also implies a certain, ultranationalist ethos, in addition to any psuedo-communal ideals. Until we see the day that Linus shores up a vast ocean of political reserves to overthrow [er, excuse me, 'shelter from imperialism'] a people like Luxembourg or the Vatican, I don't think we have to worry about The penguin donning a hammer and sickle quite yet.
This is just more driftwood coming from the giant, rotting structure that is aging Chinese tyranny. Any close examination of today's China would indicate that, beneath the silkscreen, there's a weath of capitalism running around.
These kind of comments grate on my nerves.
First of all, let me state that I am an avid Linux user, and that
according to me, there is no other [OS]...
However, when will you (people with the same mentality as the author
of the post i'm responding to) realize that competition *has* to exist?
Competition results in better products.
If `we' didn't have any goals, like being the underdog to upset MS,
I doubt the development of Linux would have advanced at the rate that it did...
The OS/Software might not be good, but the competition is invaluable.
------------------------------------------
Reveal your Source, Unleash the Power. (tm)
The reference was to Jet Li's seven or more chapters of _Once Upon a Time in China_ (various other English titles).
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
I guess the question is how important is getting technical support these days?
Well lets see. With Linux you send an email to a mailing list and in most cases you get a response within a day (or same day) and often a solution to you problem or someone experiencing the same problem willing to work with you to solve it.
With most technical support you pay for the product, you pay for the support, then you pay for the phone call and have to press lots of buttons to get support (try calling M$ tech support). Then the solution can often be somewhat costly. Often it is just a matter of downloading a new patch or verion of the software (what I had to do for my scanner with NT). Sometimes it is you must buy this to fix the problem.
Also with Linux for $50 you get the operating system which can be used on SMP, you get a desktop enviroment with X, you get Apache, you can get office tools, and lots of utilities. You get a C/C++ compiler and perl, Fortran, and lots more.
If windows 2000 doesn't cost $2000 and it were to sell for $50 and has all this and included MS Office, and Dev Studio, and IIS, and a built in scripting language, and all that Linux has and 200 days of uptime it may be worth buying.
Fact is the only reason anyone is tied to Microsoft is becuase we almost all use Office and Word. If there was a version of Word that ran under UNIX and LINUX I think we'd all stop using Microsoft products.
Hmmm, another project ot take on.
Only 'flamers' flame!
If you like kung fu, or Jacky Chan, or action, or anything, go see this movie. You won't be disappointed!!
As I see it, the advantage of Linux over Windows isn't that it's less expensive. It's that Linux is a better operating system. China may prove to be a valuable test: if price isn't a consideration, what would people rather use?
Internationalization becomes a major selling point here. It may be that Micros~1, recognizing that it won't actually sell much software in China on account of rampant piracy, may not bother investing much in making Windows friendly to a Chinese audience. If that's the case, Linux may win by default.
Linux wont compete as well in China since once of it's key features is being free. In China so is Windows 95/98/2000. (practically)
Don't forget the other key feature: Linux runs, and runs well on old hardware. A pentium 66 with 16M runs X in a useable way. Even a 386 is useful, although you may not want to run X on it. Developing countries have few new machines.
It seems to me as if just about everybody is trying to milk the Linux cash cow nowadays. This is what I mean:
The Communists: "Linux is communist!"
The Anti-Communist Chinese: "Linux is anti-communist!"
The Randists: "Linux is randist!"
The Libertarians: "Linux is libertarian!"
The Open Source Initiative: "Linux is Open Source!"
The Free Software Foundation: "Linux is Free Software!"
The only one who isn't playing that game right now is Microsoft, but only because it's in their legal interest to play up Linux as a competitor. But wait until they have been punished by the DoJ, and you know what you'll hear:
"Linux is Micro$oft software!"
Bah.
To the editors: your English is as bad as your Perl. Please go back to grade school.
I tend to think of Linux as Jet Lee's Wong Fei Hung, an all-powerful, unassuming kind of operating system that kicks ass in a subtle kind of way.
Windows is more of the Jackie Chan Wong Fei Hung, arrogant, confident of its ability but ultimately destined to receive a kicking.
Will W2K be Drunken Master 2? Only time will tell.
You're the first AC whose comment I've read for over a year, so congratulations!
"Since when did I"... well, I've lived in the Chinese world most of my working life, and only returned to Europe this year.
Second, I can't speak for the US Media - I'm not American.
- Read fiction at www.espressostories.com
Journalists in China have a problem Western ones don't: they have to search hard to find things to write about, since many, many subjects will annoy someone in authority somewhere. You'll see lots of articles in mainland Chinese papers that aren't really news - archaeology is popular I think. This piece is another.
/.; this article will be seen as just another example of Western arrogance and illogicality, probably just what its writer intended.
Bashing the West is also pretty safe ground, and that's why this article was written. Remember that the impression it'll create in China is somewhat different to the impression it creates on
It's a good job most people don't read the official press any more and get their content smuggled in from Hongkong.
- Read fiction at www.espressostories.com
By not offering the source :)
Seriously, in this instance Linux and MS products have to compete on equal terms... it'll be interesting to see what happens.
The biggest obstacle to Linux in China is the
fact that, for many, if not most people, Microsoft
software costs the same as Linux: nothing.
Piracy is everywhere.
On the bright side, though, the pirate CD vendors
have started selling bootleg copies of the latest
Red Hat releases, and Linux is gaining ground in
the growing ISP industry.
I never realized there was more than one version of Drunken Master. Jet Lee?? Never heard of him. Pardon my ignorance, but I'm about to go searching for Drunken Master with Jet Lee at the video store tonite.
So what OS would Su Hua Chi (the drunk uncle) be?
wa- hao jiu!
Having grown up in Russia, I know a lot of this history, and I couldn't agree more about the similarities. One of the eeriest things is that Lenin spent a lot of time in Finland just before the Revolution. If you think I'm kidding, check the history books
As someone who's lived in Russia most of his life, I completely agree with the previous poster's overview of Russian history. For the record:
The tradition of sending prisoners to Siberia was started by Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. Known by many names, it continues to this day.
Stalin was a traditional Russian despot in the manner of many of the czars. Lenin on the other hand was an intellectual, probably the only one to ever rule a major country.
Immediately after coming to power Lenin pulled Russia out of World War I, undoubtedly saving millions of lives.
The Civil War was started by the Whites (contra-revolutionaries). They fought for monarchy and the return of land to rich landowners (land reform was one of the first Bolshevik achievements).
After being shot in 1918 Lenin went through a series of illnesses. He became completely incapacitated in 1922, and died in 1924. Things took a completely different turn after that.
Nevertheless:
As late as 1929 Russia had a total freedom of the press and the New Economic Policy (Lenin's attempt at a regulated market system) was still active. That's the year when Stalin took over, killing most of Lenin's ideas and instituting his cult of personality.
Although Stalin was not technically a Russian (he came from a region known as the Caucasus), the major features of his rule would be very familiar to anyone who knows Russian history: centralized government control, imperialism, and brutal repression of any kind of opposition. All of this has existed in Russia centuries before Communism was ever concieved. To call these things Communist is to really misunderstand the point IMO.
Wasn't there something in the news a few months back--and on /., I believe--about the Chinese gov't planning to make a Unix variant the country's 'official' OS? I don't believe it had anything to do with Linux.
/. right now. Must be a busy morning somewhere...)
(And of course, I would search for it, but I'm getting about 10B/sec from
Linux wont compete as well in China since once of it's key features is being free. In China so is Windows 95/98/2000. (practically)
And the fact that most people dont have the hacking ability to make linux work properly makes Linux less likely to gain widespread support.
It may gain support in the government/university areas, though, like all over the world.
Yes, the Bolsheviks were wonderful people. I guess that explains the civil wars, the millions of starved peasants and the Gulags. And before you say that those were later mistakes, please don't forget that the system of the Gulags began under Lenin; Stalin only expanded and 'perfected' it.
--> R
Let's be realistic here: Microsoft isn't going out of business anytime soon. Trying to destroy it completely is as futile as those two peasants who died in their revolution. But provide an alternative, and now you have something. After all, the problem with Microsoft is not that it exists, but that it doesn't have any real competition to increase value, whether that be in price competition or feature competition.
"You can never have too many elephants on your team."
I think that this is a compelling parallel, but it doesn't recognize an important fact: linux/open source is a fundamentally new economic/political phenomenon. It is compatible with marxist/leninist theory in some important ways, but it is also very different, and I would say, better. Russian Communism featured secret police and restricted flow of information: open source ensures against this. Linux does have a central leader, but it is also decentralized in many ways. And most importantly, access to code ensures that the actions of those who have great responsibility for code will be clear for anyone with interest to see. It also ensures that anyone can give pertinent suggestions. In short, linux has several key advantages over traditional Marxism, based around the flow of information inherent in computing technologies. If the Russian revolution had been 'open source' in some metaphorical way, we might all be reds now. Comrade.
-'The cold war's over, Austin!'
How is it possible to have bootleg copies of a freely distributable operating system?
Bill Gates was the son of a wealthy Washington lawyer. He went from upper-middle class to upper class, not from rags to riches.
Hmm. Apartently we've been overlooking the little buggers.
I wonder if it's possible to cluster and network a bunch of playstations to run nuclear simulations?
Now THAT would be cool.
Later
Erik Z.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Think of the FUD that M$ will be able to spread!!!! Linux user=commie revolutionary hell bent on crushing the american dream. Anyone who has watched M$ knows that they play themselves out to be the embodyment of the american dream because they started fairly poor and became insanely rich. I can just see the FUD
-Linux/FreeBSD user=commie revolutionary
-BeOS and/or MacOS X users=socialist revolutionaries because BeOS and MacOS X are half way between OSS and commercial software and socialism is 50/50 capitalism and communism. (Most of BeOS's tools are GNU tools)
---Got Coffee?---
Let's see here. The the Russian Revolution starts, not so much due to the Bolsheviks but do to the other groups like the Moderates and the SR's. The Bolsheviks enter into the scene when Lenin returns in the box car from Germanys help. He enters into an already controlled Petrograd. The Whites, although not called that at the time, did attempt an attack on Petrograd and the Soviet well before the Bolsheviks even had control. The Bolsheviks take over in Petrograd with nearly no blood shed. The Bolsheviks pull Russia out of WWI, which neither the Whites nor the Provisional government were willing to do. Thereby ending that slaughter, especially considering the Russians didn't have enough equiptment nor the right technology equiptment it was a slaughter.
The Civil War was started against the Bolsheviks by the SR's and the Whites. After a Civil war in a land that isn't very fertile to begin with, where a lot of the workers die there is going to be starvation. Sure the requisition of grain from the peasants wasn't conducted very intellegently and caused more hardship than was necessary.
As for the GULags, they were essetially started during the Feudialist times, they just weren't called that at the time. Although Solzhenitsen gives a very good acount of what happened in the GULags, and is one of my favorite authors mainly because of Achipalag GULag odin dva e tre (I II and III), he is also a very biased in his opinion. After reading Achiplag GULag I, I had the opinion that Lenin was as evil as Stalin until I took several classes in college, mainly a class on the Russian Revolution and a couple Russian Culture classes. Lenin had some really good ideas, Stalin corrupted them and formed a new type of communism that is not Leninism.
Yes Lenin did do some horrific things at times but to compair him to Stalin is wrong. In his will he specifically stated that Stalin was too brash to rule. Trotsky and Lenin's wife tried to bring this up to the Soviet but it was shot down by the Troika before it could get aired to the public. There IS a differance between Leninism and Stalinism, people generally get them confused because we have been brought so as to believe that Lenin created the version of Communism that ruled the USSR, which in fact is not true. He built a base but was, in a sense, unable to finish the house before he died, and have you seen Stalist achitecture, it's as ugly as Stalin is evil and as ugly as his form of Communism.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
Ahh, thank you for correcting me. I am here at work and don't have all of my resources with me. So I was just winging it. And as long winded as one can be with the Russian revolution I didn't want to create thesis online.
Also, it wasn't so much a majority in the Soviet, in fact I don't think they had a pure majority but damn close, but the fact that the Soviet gained control of the armories in October due to distrust of the PG and that, I believe it was Trotsky, was in charge of that branch of the Soviet. By gaining access to the weapons, the Battleship Auroria (I think thats its name), and popular support they were able to take over fairly quickly. Also, Lenin and the Bolsheviks moved to control the city before the elected government (I can't remember the name of it) had their first meeting thereby removing any of its power before it formed.
I don't think that there will be any real weapons of any decent power to seize from MS nor any Battleships worth keeping. So I guess we will just have to rely on the popular support.
Thanks again for correcting me
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
I guess that the army is the computer manufacturers, the armory is periferals manufacturers, and the Battleship Aurora could be someone like Compaq or IBM, maybe Intel?
As for the Constituent Assembly being lopsided, I guess the Bolshevik troups in the entrances and in the seating area could be considered lopsiding the floor.
As for the Soviet, I will look in my books and notes when I get home but if I remember it started before the revolution, was shutdown, and then reformed right after the revolution. It started out as a second choice for a government but wasn't very powerful, gained more support and power, gained equal power with the Prov.Gov. and decisions in one had to be ratified by the other, then eventually overtook them, allowing for them to order the Prov.Gov. to give them control of the troups and armories in Petrograd.
This could be used as another metaphor. The Prov. Gov. was ineffective due to it being a temporary government and generally inept but held a lot of power. Sounds like MS. Eventually the Soviet gained power as the support of the people grew. Eventually overtaking the Prov. Gov. before a more permenate government could be properly formed. Linux is gaining populariety and as it does so more and more computer companies are supporting it. If the progression continues as it is going now Linux compatability will almost be necessary for a computer, part, or software. That is until it surpasses MS before they can come out with something well formed. Hopefully by then we will be able to have our troups sitting at the entrance taunting them.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
I finally have access to my material.
The first Soviet was form during the October General Strikes, which started on October 20th 1905 (using the old calander).
The Soviet, translated roughly to councel, was of workers deputies. It was created so that workers had the ability to speak out.
Due to the October General Strike Nicholas II issued the "October Manifesto" wich granted people civil liberties, and allowed the recently formed Duma to pass laws. At this point it was still St. Petersburg, and didn't change to Petrograd until 1914.
The Duma members were the first to create the Provisional Government. Unfortunately they were weak, and were always going to be weak for several reasons.
They had "Dual Power" with the Soviets. The Petrograd Soviet was spontainously created and was mostly SR's and Menshivicks. They actually voted to tolarate the Prov. Gov. because they felt they needed it. And the Prov. Gov. could not disband the Soviet because the Soviet had the real power, the people.
Lenin returns in April. In May the Prov. Gov. calls for a coalition Gov. with a merging of the Prov. Gov. the SR's and the SD's. Only the Bolsheviks don't join. During the July days there was massive riots, Bolshevik power increased during these riots. Then there was a backlash against the Bolsheviks when the Prov. Gov. said that Lenin was a German Spy, and that the Bolsheviks were receiving German money. Lenin leaves the country.
Kornilov attempts a counter-revolution and fails. This allows for the Bolsheviks to gain more power, and the Soviet gains more Bolsheviks in it. By September 10th, old calander, the Bolsheviks controled the Petrograd and Moscow Soviets. The MRC gains control of the weapons, and is controled by Trotsky. Power is taken on October 26th while the Second congress of Soviets is meeting.
etc...
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
I prefer to use the analogy of the Russian Revolution to Linux.
A Monarchy that censers the populus. Small groups of intellectuals fighting for the freedom of the people. Multiple failed attemps to usurp the government before the revolution of 1917 where several groups all with a good chance of victory striking at an opportune moment.
If it is really looked at there are some striking comparisons. Apple could be considered the Socialist Revolutionsaries, or SR's. The BeOS people, originally helped by Apple now thrown out due to conflicts of interest sort of fit the Left SR's who were too radical to be really considered by the SR's, and who were simpathetic and helpful to the Menshevic and Bolshevic groups. *BSD fits very well with the Menshevic group, very radical, good ideas, intellegent, but no really strong single leader (by really strong, I mean very noticeable).
Which leaves Linux with the Bolshevics. A good fit in my humble opinion.
Let's look at the comparisons.
The Bolshevics were a small radical group that were originally part of the same group as the Menshevics but broke off due to a dispute. The Bolshevics were more radical than the Menshevics.
Linux in a sense breaking away from UNIX, being newer and similar but more radical.
The Bolshevics had a strong ideology. Fight for the ultimate freedom of the people. Allow the people to rule themselves if they wanted to.
Linux has a strong ideology. Fight for the ultimate freedom of the people. Allow for the people to change their OS as they please, while still allowing for those who choose not to rule their OS to still have a lot of freedom.
The Bolshevics had a very far sighted, open minded, brilliant leader, aka Lenin. Strong central leadership is argueably the reason why the Bolshevics won. Lenin knew when to fight and when to run. He also was able to adapt so that control that was gained was not lost, ie abolition of the death penalty in 1918 and the New Economic Policy (1).
Linux has a far sighted, open minded, brilliant leader, aka Linus. Having a central leader to regulate the code that goes into major improvements in Linux has been a key to the ability for Linux to become what it is today. Plus the ability to adapt has been a major necessity to keep alive.
The Bolshevics gained popular support quickly due to ingenius propaganda techniques and due to the inability of the other groups to connect with the populus. The Bolshevics showed themselves as a group of the people. The other groups, especially the SR's, were eccentially decendents of the Populists, who, although dedicated to helping the people, couldn't relate to them because of their up-bringing in different society. Although the Bolshevics also were brought up in a different society they were able to adapt to draw in the masses.
Linux is the fastest growing OS, and partially due to great coverage in the news, and partially due to the fact that our word spreads quickly. Although the other groups, Apple, BeOS, *BSD, UNIX, are all great they are all very separated from the general populus. They have their supporters who are all out to make life better for people but all have some sort of hang-up with people. Apple is "seen" (seen and truth are two different things! ok!) as overly basic, simple, and generally underpowerd. BeOS isn't know of very well outside the respective community of well, us. UNIX and *BSD are still "seen" as text based and very complicated. Linux has been able to adapt.
There are a great deal of other similarities that I don't want to go into right now because I have already been too long winded.
(1) The New Economic Policy actually allowed for some capitalism, as sort of a transition over to Communism. Lenin saw this as a necissary to help rebuild and stablize. In a sense the idea of selling Linux as a product is like that. Use it until people get used to the idea of free software being powerful and useful.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
That's exactly what we need to do. Overthrow microsoft!! Assassinate Gates!!
In Taiwan, a group of hackers has put together CLE (Chinese Language Extensions). It goes along with Redhat. The latest version is 0.8. They have English and Chinese pages at: http://cle.linux.org.tw
Turbolinux came out a couple of months ago with both Traditional and Simplified Chinese distros. People in the States tend to ignore Turbolinux but folks, it ROCKS.
Microsoft already has invested quite a lot in Chinese versions of their software. Actually, the Chinese versions of Windows and Office are quite well done -- much better than Chinese Solaris,
for example. Their new office is really nice, too.
PS, to anyone attending O'Reilly's Open Source: come here my talk on Tcl (and other free software) in China.