But lets say your a struggling writer. Hashing out something small like this might be enough to start getting your name out there. And, if you win, would be a great start to launch a writing career from.
The problem with that sentence is "children's toy", god, what are you, a voice box for jack tompson? Remember boys and girls, the target audience for video games in this day and age is 18 - 35. The original Atari/Nes generation.
But that is how you can tell the real geeks from the wanna be's.
Wanna Be's are out at parties on a friday night, while real geeks are on slashdot talking about imortal, fearless mice.... suddenly Willard is taking on a scarry new perspective.
Sorry, that was not sarcastic. I actualy meant : go ahead and make fun of my spelling.
Get the jokes out now, so we can have an actual disscusion on (spelled like how I spell dissision, because it sounds the same) managements role in the work place.
There was a pool going at my last school over who had worst spelling, me, or one of the instructors.
This is probably true for a group, but certainly false for a team.
This also depends on the size. Which I am just realising is what you ment by differenciating group and team. so, yah just argeeing with you there.
That's why you do it as a stand-up meeting. Try it: no sitting, no leaning, just standing in a circle. If anybody complains about standing too long then tell them that it's their job to referee the meeting to make it shorter. It works fine for me; ours are ten minutes or so.
This does not always work. One of the big problems with extreem programing (other that the name) is the lack of a team leader. To often in my last project our daily stand up would turn into an half hour discussion on how different aspects of the project should be done, and differences in opinion on the design. (Some of which were in-essencial, and some where caused by lack of experience on the part of some "chicken".) Eventualy the entire project got split in to two groups, (not productive independent groups, but groups folowing different de-facto leaders) I had the missfortune of being one of the leaders. The project turned, for me at least, into a daly struggle to keep the team on task, and to deal with the other leader, who, while he had spirit, and a great desire to be the one in charge, lacked the experience nessesary. Had we designated a team leader at the get-go, we would not have had a rift.
Forgot to mention: I hate being the leader. It's something I am capable of doing, and I tend to be good at it. It just turns into to much work, and to much fight on top of my normal duties.
We have names for employees like you - hourly wage earners. Someone who comes in at 7:30, punches the clock, does exactly as they're told, and goes home after they have 8 hours in, and is never expected to give anything more.
And you seem to be under the impression that that is a bad thing. Why?
In a waged job in the service industry. Nothing, in product development, this is bad.
Honestly, there's very little use for those employees in an IT environment.
Again, why?
Using your micro-manager as an example. Managers are often not trained, and not capable to do the work IT does. Very often dissisions that can affect an entire company need to be made. Its the IT departments job to ensure that the right desisions are made. Beyond that, what if the server goes down after 5pm?, (time wise) or new and/(inclusive)or better methods for doing things for the company exist, where discoverd. Is it not in the companies best interests for this to implemented. Management will not know of there existince, or if they would be better for the company (and generaly, if the company is managed proporly, if the company does well, the employees do well. Not to say that this always happens, but its how they should)
I would make sure an employee with such an attitude was at the bottom of the pay scale, and would be constantly turned down for promotion, because it's obvious they have no motivation to better themselves.
It's kind of difficult to "better themselves" when they're at work all the time.
This is once again refering to wage-slavery. If you are doing a job that involves work that interest you, or chalanges you, then is not the path to "bettering oneself" ?.
On the other hand, someone who shows initiative - takes responsibility for things and does things before I ask - they're valuable, and paid accordingly.
Do you know what a manager does? The manager manages resources, time, people and money to get the projects done.
mirco-managers are horrable at what they do, both for the company and for the employees. Managing time, people, money and other resorces is what a manager does, this does not include micro-managing the employees. This does include ensuring that employees are being best utilized, and are not idle often. (most micro-managers confuce often with ever leading to a very draining environment)
taking a swiming pool as an example for how a good manager works:
Good manager:
Insures that there are enough gaurds on duty to handle both rotations and current patron levels(# of people in the pool)
Handles large non emergency issues with the public. (Complantes, lost children, individuals who need to be removed, ect)
There are about a dozen other things that I can't think of, Including Handeling money (floats, intake, change) and Comunication between workers and higher ups.
And these are just the demands the employees put on the managers, the get the same from above.
A bad manager would be out on the pool telling the life gaurds exactly what to do: "Tell that kid not to run. Tell that parent to whatch their kid. Jump in the water and pull out the drowning kid; check if he is concience, is he breathing, give him two breaths, does he have a pulse.... ect... "
The reason employees exist is to recognise what needs to be done, and to do it. That is NEVER the managers job.
It must also be pointed out that there is a BIG difference between not whanting to and not being able to. This guy (grand parent) sounds like he has been working as a wage slave to long, and is currently stuck in a job he hates.
Worse yet, we called one place the "playpen," because they had a big round office, with tables and workstations against the walls, and nerf junk to throw at each other.
Acctually, that last bit seems kind of appealing. If they are not going to respect us for the amount of work we do, at least enjoy the fact that they let you get away with shit like that at work.
Man, I remember the time I almost got fired for "shooting hoops" with the refuse at work. Slow night, was bored. Started hucking in those tray inserts (fast food) from half way across the work area. Did I mention there hadn't been a customer in an hour. Boss comes out, creams me. I quit.
I remeber a study that basicaly said women prefere geeks and there was some unexplainable trend werre women were finding geeks more attractive then the original jock type sterio types.
I remember when this study was published. It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now. The answere is in who is getting into what in the 70's and 80's was primarily geek industry is now overpopulated by 'whanna bees'. I just finished a two year course, where there where 3 of us who where there because we have always been into computers, the other 47 where there just because it was the "in thing". Half of them qualified as "original jock tipes" in their earlyer years. And its them that the women are falling for. Same type, different classification name. (the three of us where the only ones who couldn't get a date to save our lives.)
The social anxiety is a self fullfilling prophosy. We never got accepted into "normal society" as teenagers, and young adults. Never got the chance to experience or grow up in a "social", so now as adults, we naturaly feel out of place in "normal society", and instead fall back to what we know best, to what we grew up doing.
What would realy happen:
Woman gets placed infrount of geek. Geek tries (in socialy bad form, of course.) to hit on Woman. Geek gets rejected. Geek goes back to work to consolidate himself.
Where have you been. People whent Completly Bonkers about 100 years ago. Its a Madness that has devolved into the pure, well, Madness that exists today. So yes, people have gone completely bonkers, and they did it some time ago.
You hit part of what I was trying to say on the head.
There are two focuses that can be taken when developing. New and Improved, or Reliable. 20 years ago, car manufactures where focused on Reliable, and (ignoring F(ix)O(r)R(epair)D(aily)), for the most part, still are. That's why they cost $10K-$15K. Computers are focused on New and Improved. Unstable, (I have even had some problems with Linux and Macs. Crases by O.S. that I have had to deal with: Linux: 4; Mac OS: 1; Dos: 5; Win 3.1: 3; Win 9X: Lost Count after 103; Win XP: Lost Count) sorry where was I. Unstable, and out of date within a few years. My comment wasn't based soley on Instability, but also with Usability. That car from 20 years ago, functions just as well today, as any other car out there. (For it's inteded use as a passenger Vehicle. It never was, and never will be a performance race car.) My 8 year old Dos box still runs without any problems, but today its only use is as a Router/Firewall. For what I do, I can nolonger use it for modern Software Development.
It all comes down to what people whant. I whant a Computer that is stable and will last min 5 years, Willing to spend $15K for one. There are maby a few thousand of us willing to do the same. Joe Blow on the street whants fast, new and Cheap. $1000 max. There are a few hundred Million of them.
WARNING: Some facts have been simplifide for the sake of quicker argument. Do Not Flame.
I don't recall anyone saying Dalmar wasn't intellegent. He was Evil. Evil != Stupid. Good != Smart. They are two seperate measurments. One is of intelegence. The other of Moral and Ethical Values (not legal, Laws have nothing to do with Morals or Ethics). Einstien == Good, Dalmar == Evil. Nothing is this math negates Dalmar == Intellegent.
P.S. Yes I'm aware that Insane != Evil. My opinion is my own.
Here is the thing. My car is 20 years old. I'm living in a 40 year old building. The building is warm, and secure. My car runs, and has very little mantinance issues. My 3 year old computer is seriously out of date. If the computer could be garunteed to last for 10+ years, (Even I will admit that 20 years for a car is exceptional) I would have no problem shelling out $15K for it. I think this is where some of the issues come in to play. Every one is so desperate to have the Newest and prittiest, that they arn'd demadning the Best. And companies deliver what the people whant. And don't get me started on the big companies (not just M$, others do the same) that push the New and Pritty, just so they can keep turning large profits. Most of it is the software equivalent of repaining last years modle, and selling it as this years. Yes it looks newer, but it still has that faulty Altenator, that unreliable Fuel line.
Eg. Word Perfect 5.1 did everything I use Word 2003 for, So why did I need to buy Word 97, Word 2000, WordXP, and Word 2003. (O.K., I still use Word Perfect 5.1, don't tell anybody, But most people out there know what I am talking about)
I'm acctualy supprised no body from up here (Canada) has chimed in yet.
We have had $1 and $2 coins for almost a decade now. Each coin is slightly larger than the other (in order of increacing value, from the Quarter up) so it is easy to determine the difference by feel. And the $2 coin has actualy helped with the weight issue. because the coins weight approxametly the same, $20 in twoniees ($2 coin) weighs half as much as $20 in loonies($1 coin. It has a loon on it. Shut up)
Agreed. There are few things more fustrating than forced twiddle thumb time because an app is loading. Sure, for most apps it's probably only 10-20 seconds of idle time for the worker, but that can add up over the day. One must consider the full ramifications of "Sacrificed Processer Cycles". If it's in house, it's easy, who gets payed more, programer or end user. If, however, you are doing a comercial app, you are wasting your constomers time. Do it enough and they will go to your competitor.
You got the last one slightly wrong
"People aren't buying our songs, not because they songs suck, but because they are downloading them"
Say it with me again: Corralation does not imply causality.
If my sales of my bananas drop, I do not instantly assume that it's because people are stealing them. "But people eat bananas. I See people eating bananas. They arn't buying MY bananas. Therefor they are steeling MY bananas."
Remember boys and girls: Listening to intepentend music is the same as Intelectual Property Theft. It involves not giving me all your money.
Sorry. The American Arrogence was aimed at the site.
Never ment to insult Gaiman. My previos comment was in no way dirrected at him.
True that the site is Sony, but my money is on it being hosted out of Hollywood.
Just a little upset that I'm probably going to have to wait for the Video releace before I can watch the movie. (Traveling to Toronto or some other place in Ontario is something For whitch I currently do not have the time to do.)
I'm also a little tired of us folks out west missing all the Niche events just because we live out west.
We got Colour Here last year, very cool.[/joke]
That last bit was not a Canadian thing, but instead a reference to where I currently live. Lets just say that success around here is measured in how far from the place you end up.
Tipical American Arrogence: No listings for Canada.
And I just Checked, No theater in my entire province is even considiring bringing in Mirror Mask.
Oh Well. At least I still have Serenity.
(Though I shouldn't be suprised. I apperintly live so far from civilizaton that the local theater got Spawn two weeks AFTER the video releace. no joke)
Don't forget the classic Seanon 1 quips:
Confirmed Survey 1. Upon arrival you will report for debriefing. And just one more thing, on your trip back I want you to take the time to learn the Babylon 5 mantra. Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again
Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out! Babylon control out.
Civilians.
Just kidding about that God part. No offense.
and my all time personal Favorite(s):
(sorry, only ment to quote the first one, but the others fit in so nicely with the theme)
Susan Ivanova: No boom today... boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.
Look Sombody has to keep some damn perspective around here...
Sooner or later BOOM!
Susan Ivanova: Ambassador, do you really want to know what's going on down there?
Ambassador Londo Mollari: Yes, absolutely!
Susan Ivanova: Boom. Boom boom boom. Boom boom. Boom! Have a nice day!
Susan Ivanova: So the next time we find out where the Shadows plan to strike, we can mine the area, and as soon as they come out of hyperspace...
Citizen G'Kar: Then, as you so concisely say, Boom!
The Norse had succesfull trade relations spanning from what is now canada, spreading accross northern europe all the way to China.
Columbus is someone who got lost on his way to India.(Yah, that sounds like a government program)
Try reading history books other those pre-aproved by the USA government.
Slashdot Mirror
But lets say your a struggling writer. Hashing out something small like this might be enough to start getting your name out there. And, if you win, would be a great start to launch a writing career from.
I'm not older than 35 either.
The problem with that sentence is "children's toy", god, what are you, a voice box for jack tompson? Remember boys and girls, the target audience for video games in this day and age is 18 - 35. The original Atari/Nes generation.
But that is how you can tell the real geeks from the wanna be's. Wanna Be's are out at parties on a friday night, while real geeks are on slashdot talking about imortal, fearless mice.... suddenly Willard is taking on a scarry new perspective.
Sorry, that was not sarcastic. I actualy meant : go ahead and make fun of my spelling.
Get the jokes out now, so we can have an actual disscusion on (spelled like how I spell dissision, because it sounds the same) managements role in the work place.
There was a pool going at my last school over who had worst spelling, me, or one of the instructors.
For the record, I am not management. I have just had the opportunity to work with very good managers at a job that I really enjoyed.
Yah, Yah, I have piss poor spelling. It comes from an unrelated issue. Go ahead, make fun. Get it out of your system.
This is probably true for a group, but certainly false for a team.
This also depends on the size. Which I am just realising is what you ment by differenciating group and team. so, yah just argeeing with you there.
That's why you do it as a stand-up meeting. Try it: no sitting, no leaning, just standing in a circle. If anybody complains about standing too long then tell them that it's their job to referee the meeting to make it shorter. It works fine for me; ours are ten minutes or so.
This does not always work. One of the big problems with extreem programing (other that the name) is the lack of a team leader. To often in my last project our daily stand up would turn into an half hour discussion on how different aspects of the project should be done, and differences in opinion on the design. (Some of which were in-essencial, and some where caused by lack of experience on the part of some "chicken".) Eventualy the entire project got split in to two groups, (not productive independent groups, but groups folowing different de-facto leaders) I had the missfortune of being one of the leaders. The project turned, for me at least, into a daly struggle to keep the team on task, and to deal with the other leader, who, while he had spirit, and a great desire to be the one in charge, lacked the experience nessesary. Had we designated a team leader at the get-go, we would not have had a rift.
Forgot to mention: I hate being the leader. It's something I am capable of doing, and I tend to be good at it. It just turns into to much work, and to much fight on top of my normal duties.
We have names for employees like you - hourly wage earners. Someone who comes in at 7:30, punches the clock, does exactly as they're told, and goes home after they have 8 hours in, and is never expected to give anything more.
And you seem to be under the impression that that is a bad thing. Why?
In a waged job in the service industry. Nothing, in product development, this is bad.
Honestly, there's very little use for those employees in an IT environment.
Again, why?
Using your micro-manager as an example. Managers are often not trained, and not capable to do the work IT does. Very often dissisions that can affect an entire company need to be made. Its the IT departments job to ensure that the right desisions are made. Beyond that, what if the server goes down after 5pm?, (time wise) or new and/(inclusive)or better methods for doing things for the company exist, where discoverd. Is it not in the companies best interests for this to implemented. Management will not know of there existince, or if they would be better for the company (and generaly, if the company is managed proporly, if the company does well, the employees do well. Not to say that this always happens, but its how they should)
I would make sure an employee with such an attitude was at the bottom of the pay scale, and would be constantly turned down for promotion, because it's obvious they have no motivation to better themselves.
It's kind of difficult to "better themselves" when they're at work all the time.
This is once again refering to wage-slavery. If you are doing a job that involves work that interest you, or chalanges you, then is not the path to "bettering oneself" ?.
On the other hand, someone who shows initiative - takes responsibility for things and does things before I ask - they're valuable, and paid accordingly.
Do you know what a manager does? The manager manages resources, time, people and money to get the projects done.
mirco-managers are horrable at what they do, both for the company and for the employees. Managing time, people, money and other resorces is what a manager does, this does not include micro-managing the employees. This does include ensuring that employees are being best utilized, and are not idle often. (most micro-managers confuce often with ever leading to a very draining environment)
taking a swiming pool as an example for how a good manager works:
Good manager:
Insures that there are enough gaurds on duty to handle both rotations and current patron levels(# of people in the pool)
Handles large non emergency issues with the public. (Complantes, lost children, individuals who need to be removed, ect)
There are about a dozen other things that I can't think of, Including Handeling money (floats, intake, change) and Comunication between workers and higher ups.
And these are just the demands the employees put on the managers, the get the same from above.
A bad manager would be out on the pool telling the life gaurds exactly what to do: "Tell that kid not to run. Tell that parent to whatch their kid. Jump in the water and pull out the drowning kid; check if he is concience, is he breathing, give him two breaths, does he have a pulse.... ect... "
The reason employees exist is to recognise what needs to be done, and to do it. That is NEVER the managers job.
It must also be pointed out that there is a BIG difference between not whanting to and not being able to. This guy (grand parent) sounds like he has been working as a wage slave to long, and is currently stuck in a job he hates.
Worse yet, we called one place the "playpen," because they had a big round office, with tables and workstations against the walls, and nerf junk to throw at each other.
Acctually, that last bit seems kind of appealing. If they are not going to respect us for the amount of work we do, at least enjoy the fact that they let you get away with shit like that at work.
Man, I remember the time I almost got fired for "shooting hoops" with the refuse at work. Slow night, was bored. Started hucking in those tray inserts (fast food) from half way across the work area. Did I mention there hadn't been a customer in an hour. Boss comes out, creams me. I quit.
sorry... but you at least get my point.
I remeber a study that basicaly said women prefere geeks and there was some unexplainable trend werre women were finding geeks more attractive then the original jock type sterio types.
I remember when this study was published. It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now. The answere is in who is getting into what in the 70's and 80's was primarily geek industry is now overpopulated by 'whanna bees'. I just finished a two year course, where there where 3 of us who where there because we have always been into computers, the other 47 where there just because it was the "in thing". Half of them qualified as "original jock tipes" in their earlyer years. And its them that the women are falling for. Same type, different classification name.
(the three of us where the only ones who couldn't get a date to save our lives.)
The social anxiety is a self fullfilling prophosy. We never got accepted into "normal society" as teenagers, and young adults. Never got the chance to experience or grow up in a "social", so now as adults, we naturaly feel out of place in "normal society", and instead fall back to what we know best, to what we grew up doing.
What would realy happen:
Woman gets placed infrount of geek.
Geek tries (in socialy bad form, of course.) to hit on Woman.
Geek gets rejected.
Geek goes back to work to consolidate himself.
Have people gone completely bonkers?
Where have you been. People whent Completly Bonkers about 100 years ago. Its a Madness that has devolved into the pure, well, Madness that exists today. So yes, people have gone completely bonkers, and they did it some time ago.
In other news: You must be new here.
You hit part of what I was trying to say on the head. There are two focuses that can be taken when developing. New and Improved, or Reliable. 20 years ago, car manufactures where focused on Reliable, and (ignoring F(ix)O(r)R(epair)D(aily)), for the most part, still are. That's why they cost $10K-$15K. Computers are focused on New and Improved. Unstable, (I have even had some problems with Linux and Macs. Crases by O.S. that I have had to deal with: Linux: 4; Mac OS: 1; Dos: 5; Win 3.1: 3; Win 9X: Lost Count after 103; Win XP: Lost Count) sorry where was I. Unstable, and out of date within a few years. My comment wasn't based soley on Instability, but also with Usability. That car from 20 years ago, functions just as well today, as any other car out there. (For it's inteded use as a passenger Vehicle. It never was, and never will be a performance race car.) My 8 year old Dos box still runs without any problems, but today its only use is as a Router/Firewall. For what I do, I can nolonger use it for modern Software Development.
It all comes down to what people whant. I whant a Computer that is stable and will last min 5 years, Willing to spend $15K for one. There are maby a few thousand of us willing to do the same. Joe Blow on the street whants fast, new and Cheap. $1000 max. There are a few hundred Million of them.
WARNING: Some facts have been simplifide for the sake of quicker argument. Do Not Flame.
I don't recall anyone saying Dalmar wasn't intellegent. He was Evil. Evil != Stupid. Good != Smart. They are two seperate measurments. One is of intelegence. The other of Moral and Ethical Values (not legal, Laws have nothing to do with Morals or Ethics). Einstien == Good, Dalmar == Evil. Nothing is this math negates Dalmar == Intellegent. P.S. Yes I'm aware that Insane != Evil. My opinion is my own.
Here is the thing. My car is 20 years old. I'm living in a 40 year old building. The building is warm, and secure. My car runs, and has very little mantinance issues. My 3 year old computer is seriously out of date. If the computer could be garunteed to last for 10+ years, (Even I will admit that 20 years for a car is exceptional) I would have no problem shelling out $15K for it. I think this is where some of the issues come in to play. Every one is so desperate to have the Newest and prittiest, that they arn'd demadning the Best. And companies deliver what the people whant. And don't get me started on the big companies (not just M$, others do the same) that push the New and Pritty, just so they can keep turning large profits. Most of it is the software equivalent of repaining last years modle, and selling it as this years. Yes it looks newer, but it still has that faulty Altenator, that unreliable Fuel line. Eg. Word Perfect 5.1 did everything I use Word 2003 for, So why did I need to buy Word 97, Word 2000, WordXP, and Word 2003. (O.K., I still use Word Perfect 5.1, don't tell anybody, But most people out there know what I am talking about)
sorry, got on a little bit of a rant there.
I'm acctualy supprised no body from up here (Canada) has chimed in yet. We have had $1 and $2 coins for almost a decade now. Each coin is slightly larger than the other (in order of increacing value, from the Quarter up) so it is easy to determine the difference by feel. And the $2 coin has actualy helped with the weight issue. because the coins weight approxametly the same, $20 in twoniees ($2 coin) weighs half as much as $20 in loonies($1 coin. It has a loon on it. Shut up)
Agreed. There are few things more fustrating than forced twiddle thumb time because an app is loading. Sure, for most apps it's probably only 10-20 seconds of idle time for the worker, but that can add up over the day. One must consider the full ramifications of "Sacrificed Processer Cycles". If it's in house, it's easy, who gets payed more, programer or end user. If, however, you are doing a comercial app, you are wasting your constomers time. Do it enough and they will go to your competitor.
You got the last one slightly wrong "People aren't buying our songs, not because they songs suck, but because they are downloading them" Say it with me again: Corralation does not imply causality. If my sales of my bananas drop, I do not instantly assume that it's because people are stealing them. "But people eat bananas. I See people eating bananas. They arn't buying MY bananas. Therefor they are steeling MY bananas." Remember boys and girls: Listening to intepentend music is the same as Intelectual Property Theft. It involves not giving me all your money.
Need a B5 Quote Here: "WARNING: THE FUTURE MAY REQUIRE SOME ASSEMBLY" "Product may not be exactly as shown"
Sorry. The American Arrogence was aimed at the site. Never ment to insult Gaiman. My previos comment was in no way dirrected at him. True that the site is Sony, but my money is on it being hosted out of Hollywood. Just a little upset that I'm probably going to have to wait for the Video releace before I can watch the movie. (Traveling to Toronto or some other place in Ontario is something For whitch I currently do not have the time to do.) I'm also a little tired of us folks out west missing all the Niche events just because we live out west. We got Colour Here last year, very cool.[/joke] That last bit was not a Canadian thing, but instead a reference to where I currently live. Lets just say that success around here is measured in how far from the place you end up.
Tipical American Arrogence: No listings for Canada. And I just Checked, No theater in my entire province is even considiring bringing in Mirror Mask. Oh Well. At least I still have Serenity. (Though I shouldn't be suprised. I apperintly live so far from civilizaton that the local theater got Spawn two weeks AFTER the video releace. no joke)
Note to self: remember to format... format... format...
Don't forget the classic Seanon 1 quips: Confirmed Survey 1. Upon arrival you will report for debriefing. And just one more thing, on your trip back I want you to take the time to learn the Babylon 5 mantra. Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out! Babylon control out. Civilians. Just kidding about that God part. No offense. and my all time personal Favorite(s): (sorry, only ment to quote the first one, but the others fit in so nicely with the theme) Susan Ivanova: No boom today... boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. Look Sombody has to keep some damn perspective around here... Sooner or later BOOM! Susan Ivanova: Ambassador, do you really want to know what's going on down there? Ambassador Londo Mollari: Yes, absolutely! Susan Ivanova: Boom. Boom boom boom. Boom boom. Boom! Have a nice day! Susan Ivanova: So the next time we find out where the Shadows plan to strike, we can mine the area, and as soon as they come out of hyperspace... Citizen G'Kar: Then, as you so concisely say, Boom!
The Norse had succesfull trade relations spanning from what is now canada, spreading accross northern europe all the way to China. Columbus is someone who got lost on his way to India.(Yah, that sounds like a government program) Try reading history books other those pre-aproved by the USA government.
There uesed to be adcritic.com, untill they got sued for illigaly distributing copyrighted material (the adds!!)