Moderately high sales don't always mean mainstream. GTA and Halo are targeted squarely at the 17-24-year-old male gamer. Outside of that range, they don't really sell all that well (besides to kids who want to appear cool, I suppose). Truly mainstream games (the ones that sell 10 million or more) transcend age, gender, even genre barriers.
Take a look at the 20 best-selling games. Most of them have very massive appeal: The Sims, Mario, Tetris, Pokemon, Myst. Sure, there are a few "gamer" games in there, like Half-Life and Final Fantasy, but for the most part they were purchased by people who don't fit the stereotypical "gamer" profile. People who are more likely to play solitaire or Minesweeper than Starcraft. Those are the "mainstream".
I suppose you could argue that GTA is relatively mainstream, but Halo really appeals only to FPS fans. While older adults and females might make up a smaller percentage of the current industry, a game can never be truly mainstream unless it reaches those markets. Contrary to what the Internet might lead us to believe, the typical "gamer" makes up a small percentage of the potential audience for video games.
"You see, while the Revolution's launch price will probably be less than the 360's, don't forget that the 360 will have had the better part of a year on sale by the Revolution's launch. Console prices often get heavily reduced at around this point. I would not be in the slightest bit surprised if MS lowered the price of the 360 to the same as the Revolution's specifically to coincide with the Revolution's launch."
Sony never dropped the price of the PS2 until Microsoft lowered the MSRP of the Xbox to $200. If MS is taking a loss on the 360's hardware, chances are that a price drop won't be financially feasible after only six to nine months. Remember, Microsoft is trying to recoup their losses on the 360. If software sales are slow during launch, which is entirely possible given the $60 price, they might not be able to justify a price drop so soon.
As for the effect of console pricing, it seems to be kind of unpredictable, but it's definitely there. The GameCube's lower price point may have been a disadvantage early on, since consumers didn't view it as a technological equal to the PS2 and Xbox. But when it's price dropped under $100, sales skyrocketed. $100 seems to be a "magic number" for consumers, while at any point above that, they assume that price is equivalent to value. It would be interesting to see a study done on the economics of the console market, that's for sure.
From the article:
"The interview hints that Metroid Prime 3 will end a trilogy of sorts..."
It sounds like Prime 3 will be the last of the "Prime" subseries, which has been the subtitle for every 3D Metroid game. I'd say there's a pretty good chance of Metroid returning to it's 3rd person roots for the following title. Nintendo seems to have a knack for 3D sidescrollers lately (DK: Jungle Beat, New Super Mario Bros.)
And here's an interesting rumor:
A pre-E3 issue of Game Informer reported that Nintendo was planning to preview a new third-person Metroid called "Metroid Dread" for DS at E3, but the game was never shown. All of the other listed games in that issue turned out to be real, so there's pretty good reason to believe it's in development.
Morelikethree(and a half).
Every Nintendo console has featured no more than two Zelda games (the SNES only had one). GameCube is at least on par with that, even if you ignore FSA and OoT:MQ. Nintendo can't please everyone. For every person like you who wants more Zelda and Mario, there's another who's ticked that Nintendo keeps reusing the same franchises. It's kind of a lose-lose situation.
"They have been against the evolution of technology for fears of rising costs."
In what way? The GameCube was far more powerful than the PS2, and almost on par with the Xbox. The only reasonable argument I could understand is the N64 cart vs. CD's debate, but that's ancient history in an industry this young. All three console manufacturers are cutting corners to save money. Sony has already removed several features from the PS3, and has rumored at an inflated price point to make up for the PS3's expensive hardware. Microsoft will need to be especially thrifty in the upcoming generation, unless they plan to bleed millions of dollars again like they did on the Xbox.
The goal is to design a console that's financially reasonable for both the consumer and the manufacturer. Microsoft missed that mark with the Xbox, and Sony appears to be doing the opposite with the PS3, raising the price to offset costs. So far Nintendo has been the only company to consistently provide an affordable yet powerful console without coughing up a mint to pay for it.
"UMD is selling fine and has been declared a standard"
Being "declared a standard" has no relevance to any practical discussion. UMD is supported by a grand total of one piece of hardware. The NES cart was a more successful storage medium than the UMD appears to be. Sony execs can call the UMD whatever they want, but for all intents and purposes, it's a proprietary medium.
I can't really comment on the current standings of Beta, but the MiniDisc was only marginally successful. It was a redundant format, just like the MemoryStick is.
You mean for the GameCube, right? The Revolution is fully backward compatible with the Cube, down to the same controller and memory card ports. The Game Boy line has always been backward compatible. And the biggest reason for avoiding the feature on previous systems was the expense of having multiple cartridge slots.
"dont lock yourself into thinking the way its always been... console should be advancing well beyond memory sticks."
What? Consoles are just now advancing to standard memory sticks. I'm thrilled that Sony and Nintendo are using conventional flash memory over that expensive junk they try to pawn onto us right now. Microsoft is no better, and they're not even offering the option in the next generation. You can speculate about wireless data transfer, but Microsoft required the purchase of memory cards for the Xbox, so unless they announce otherwise, there's no reason to believe they won't do it again. The 360's WiFi isn't even standard, so it would be lunacy to require that as the only way of transferring files.
Maybe stuff like that will be implemented in the future or on other consoles; I think it's more likely to happen on the Revolution due to the built-in WiFi. Even still, there will always be a place for solid, portable memory. It's convenient, relatively cheap, and it'll always work. Sony and Nintendo seemed to have figured that out, but I guess Microsoft is still trying to recoup their losses.
Here's another vote for Lode Runner. Such a simple, yet addicting game.
Interestinly enough, the lead programmer of a recent remake has put Lode Runner Online up as a free download on his site. It plays almost exactly the same the original with improved graphics and a few new gameplay elements. Very addicting stuff.
The Mario Kart franchise has sold far upwards of 15 million units between the US and Japan, even more if you consider other markets. The DS has probably sold 6 million systems worldwide. I'd say that's a fairly significant bunch of Mario Kart fans that don't have a DS. Not to mention the millions more that have played the game on a friend's system.
Here's the official list from Nintendo. So far Tony Hawk is the only game on that list to have a confirmed release date this year. Dynasty Warriors may launch this holiday season, but IGN doesn't have a release date for it. Telegames' Ultimate Card and Ultimate Brain Games have also been announced as online titles, though they don't appear on Nintendo's list for some reason.
The CAVE doesn't have a moving floor, though. That sounds like it would be very hard to implement, especially since the CAVE uses a rear-projection screen on the floor. You'd need some kind of transparent treadmill, which would probably reduce the immersion somewhat.
"Do you really think Nintendo is going to roll out a wireless network?"
Well, they will in Japan. It's probably much less practical in the US, due to the smaller population density. The best implementation would be as you suggested, to use standard WiFi hotspots. But if, for some reason, the DS requires a proprietary protocol, the only solution would be for Nintendo to place their own hotspots or provide users with a USB dongle that lets them use "NiFi" over an existing connection.
"...there is also talk about them releasing a wireless router of sorts that people like my parents that have broadband but only one computer with no wireless router can just plug into a spare USB port."
Actually, I think they could simply buy any wireless networking card or a USB wireless adapter, and use it to share their broadband network wirelessly. It should effectively turn their computer into a WiFi hotspot, or more specifically a software access point.
According to IGN's release date list, the first online game will be Tony Hawk DS. Strange, because Nintendo hasn't really even discussed the title apart from a brief showing at their E3 press conference. IGN's list claims Tony Hawk will be released October 18, about two weeks before Mario Kart.
Of course, it's entirely possible that Tony Hawk will be delayed a bit. It doesn't seem very Nintendo-like to let a third-party game be the focal point of a new feature.
In other news:
In IGN's August 1 mailbag, Craig hints that Metroid Prime Hunters will likely be delayed into October, and possibly even November. It likely doesn't mean anything, but there was a small uproar when Nintendo announced that Metroid wouldn't be online. Perhaps it's been delayed to add online functionality?
Ugh... I just linked to IGN three times in one post. I feel dirty.:p
The ad in question, for those who didn't bother to click on the IGN article.
This campaign isn't too bad of an idea so far. The ad is a little obscure, but the launch of the WiFi network is still two or three months away. Something like this may pique the interest of fans, but it will be explained in more detail closer to the holidays. Besides, if the launch of Nintendo WiFi Connection is as successful as many people expect, news should spread rather quickly by word of mouth. I know a lot of people who are eyeing the DS to see how Mario Kart and Animal Crossing will turn out as online games.
Heh, I feel stupid now. Although maybe G4 should feel stupid since their list is a random assortment of games from 2004 and 2005. What's the point of a "Game of the Year" award when it spans multiple years?
Resident Evil 4 released in January of 2005. You'll be able to complain about this time next year when it gets shafted again. Voters will have long forgotten about RE4 while they're playing Twilight Princess and their Xbox 360s. Sad, because the game deserves some major recognition.
"It also can't be understated that Nintendo saw a profit in its last quarter. By comparison, Sony Computer Entertainment today reported a quarterly loss of 5.9 billion yen ($52.6 million). Last week, Microsoft's Home and Entertainment division, which makes the Xbox, said it lost $179 million during its last quarter."
I've been on the fence about the GBA Movie Player for a few months now, but with this revalation, I think I'll finally have to get one. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than any GBA flash cart. Do you have any more info about it? I would hugely appreciate it.
Not only that, but God of War wasn't even that popular. It was a great game, and a hit among hardcore fans, but it never reached the levels of popularity like GTA, Zelda, or Halo. They would have been better off choosing a game that more than a million people have heard about.
True. Although because OoT had a larger number of dungeons, it had a greater number of areas based on previous dungeons. And OoT didn't reuse the same boss fights, which felt kind of lazy to me in WW. When you add OoT's awesome escape sequence, Ganon's Tower felt a lot more complete to me than WW's ending did.
"* The swordsmaster minigame where you had to land one thousand hits was equally terrible." ...And also 100% optional.
I agree with most of your other points, although the warp song could be discovered fairly early and it lessened sea travel tremendously.
The stealth parts could have been reworked a bit to make them less frustrating and more entertaining. It should have been more like Metal Gear Solid, where stealth is very useful, but you have a chance to fight if you're spotted. The enemies could have been made extra powerful to encourage stealth over fighting.
And the entire game could definitely have benefitted from a "hard mode" where enemies do twice or four times as much damage. Even the three original heart containers gave Link twelve hits from the average enemy with the current system. Enemies in OoT usually removed 1/2 or a full heart with each attack, and some removed up to four.
It also received the fourth perfect score ever from respected Japanese mag Famitsu. For all it's faults, it was still a darn good game. When a game's predecessor was the the top-rated game of all time, it will be placed under far greater scrutiny than most games.
I think it speaks for the game's quality when most critics can only name two or three noticeable flaws. In retrospect, I could easily list a few problems with Halo 2, Counter-Strike, GTA: San Andreas, World of Warcraft, Metroid Prime 2, or any other big game, but that doesn't detract from their quality. The fact remains that Wind Waker was overall the top-rated game of 2003, and that's pretty impressive in its own right.
Personally, the fact that Aonuma and Miyamoto have noticed the few flaws of the game and are taking steps to correct them gives me a lot more confidence in the sequel.
"I've not played Super Mario:Allstars, so I'll leave that one alone, but honsetly take a good look at it, you'll probably find that it fits the same mold you are complaning about, just in 2d."
You're right; it is. Probably even moreso, since there's no real "fighting", just running and jumping. (Super Mario All-Stars is a compilation of the first three NES Mario games, by the way.)
I agree with you completely; sticking to that mold doesn't make it a bad game, as the GP implied. Like you said, nearly every game fits that cookie-cutter, if you want to boil it down that far. It's not the mechanics that make games great, it's the execution of said mechanics. Superman 64 featured the same "running, jumping, and fighting" as Ocarina of Time, yet one of those games is lauded as videogame perfection, and the other is considered one of the poorest examples of game design ever created.
And for what it's worth, I think the jump to 3D has actually allowed for more gameplay variation than the Super Nintendo could have provided. We never could have seen games like Katamari Damacy, Super Monkey Ball, Pikmin, Metal Gear Solid, or Resident Evil 4 on the SNES. By its very nature it restricted games to running, jumping, and shooting. The only real variation was whether the camera was above your character or to the side.
Heh, my opinion is almost opposite. I loved Jabu-Jabu and the water temple, despite their difficulty. They were complicated, but they were intricately designed and felt far more coherent than any of WW's dungeons. The varying water level in the water temple was one of the most interesting mechanics in any Zelda dungeon (at least until MM's awesome water dungeon).
Wind Waker's dungeons, by contrast, felt very linear and contrived to me. Take the last dungeon, for example. First you predictably fight every previous boss, which are now much simpler. Then you solve some simplistic torch/boomerang puzzle, and run up three or four flights of nearly identical stairs until you reach the final room. It felt much more forced, nothing like the natural-feeling dungeons like OoT's Forest Temple, Spirit Temple, and Dodongo's Cavern. Heck, almost every dungeon in OoT felt very natural and realistic, almost like they were real architecture that had been overrun by monsters. And despite their attention to detail, they still played very smoothly as "dungeons".
Slashdot Mirror
Moderately high sales don't always mean mainstream. GTA and Halo are targeted squarely at the 17-24-year-old male gamer. Outside of that range, they don't really sell all that well (besides to kids who want to appear cool, I suppose). Truly mainstream games (the ones that sell 10 million or more) transcend age, gender, even genre barriers.
Take a look at the 20 best-selling games. Most of them have very massive appeal: The Sims, Mario, Tetris, Pokemon, Myst. Sure, there are a few "gamer" games in there, like Half-Life and Final Fantasy, but for the most part they were purchased by people who don't fit the stereotypical "gamer" profile. People who are more likely to play solitaire or Minesweeper than Starcraft. Those are the "mainstream".
I suppose you could argue that GTA is relatively mainstream, but Halo really appeals only to FPS fans. While older adults and females might make up a smaller percentage of the current industry, a game can never be truly mainstream unless it reaches those markets. Contrary to what the Internet might lead us to believe, the typical "gamer" makes up a small percentage of the potential audience for video games.
"You see, while the Revolution's launch price will probably be less than the 360's, don't forget that the 360 will have had the better part of a year on sale by the Revolution's launch. Console prices often get heavily reduced at around this point. I would not be in the slightest bit surprised if MS lowered the price of the 360 to the same as the Revolution's specifically to coincide with the Revolution's launch."
Sony never dropped the price of the PS2 until Microsoft lowered the MSRP of the Xbox to $200. If MS is taking a loss on the 360's hardware, chances are that a price drop won't be financially feasible after only six to nine months. Remember, Microsoft is trying to recoup their losses on the 360. If software sales are slow during launch, which is entirely possible given the $60 price, they might not be able to justify a price drop so soon.
As for the effect of console pricing, it seems to be kind of unpredictable, but it's definitely there. The GameCube's lower price point may have been a disadvantage early on, since consumers didn't view it as a technological equal to the PS2 and Xbox. But when it's price dropped under $100, sales skyrocketed. $100 seems to be a "magic number" for consumers, while at any point above that, they assume that price is equivalent to value. It would be interesting to see a study done on the economics of the console market, that's for sure.
From the article:
"The interview hints that Metroid Prime 3 will end a trilogy of sorts..."
It sounds like Prime 3 will be the last of the "Prime" subseries, which has been the subtitle for every 3D Metroid game. I'd say there's a pretty good chance of Metroid returning to it's 3rd person roots for the following title. Nintendo seems to have a knack for 3D sidescrollers lately (DK: Jungle Beat, New Super Mario Bros.)
And here's an interesting rumor:
A pre-E3 issue of Game Informer reported that Nintendo was planning to preview a new third-person Metroid called "Metroid Dread" for DS at E3, but the game was never shown. All of the other listed games in that issue turned out to be real, so there's pretty good reason to believe it's in development.
"One Zelda game? ONE?"
More like three (and a half).
Every Nintendo console has featured no more than two Zelda games (the SNES only had one). GameCube is at least on par with that, even if you ignore FSA and OoT:MQ. Nintendo can't please everyone. For every person like you who wants more Zelda and Mario, there's another who's ticked that Nintendo keeps reusing the same franchises. It's kind of a lose-lose situation.
"They have been against the evolution of technology for fears of rising costs."
In what way? The GameCube was far more powerful than the PS2, and almost on par with the Xbox. The only reasonable argument I could understand is the N64 cart vs. CD's debate, but that's ancient history in an industry this young. All three console manufacturers are cutting corners to save money. Sony has already removed several features from the PS3, and has rumored at an inflated price point to make up for the PS3's expensive hardware. Microsoft will need to be especially thrifty in the upcoming generation, unless they plan to bleed millions of dollars again like they did on the Xbox.
The goal is to design a console that's financially reasonable for both the consumer and the manufacturer. Microsoft missed that mark with the Xbox, and Sony appears to be doing the opposite with the PS3, raising the price to offset costs. So far Nintendo has been the only company to consistently provide an affordable yet powerful console without coughing up a mint to pay for it.
"UMD is selling fine and has been declared a standard"
Being "declared a standard" has no relevance to any practical discussion. UMD is supported by a grand total of one piece of hardware. The NES cart was a more successful storage medium than the UMD appears to be. Sony execs can call the UMD whatever they want, but for all intents and purposes, it's a proprietary medium.
I can't really comment on the current standings of Beta, but the MiniDisc was only marginally successful. It was a redundant format, just like the MemoryStick is.
You mean for the GameCube, right? The Revolution is fully backward compatible with the Cube, down to the same controller and memory card ports. The Game Boy line has always been backward compatible. And the biggest reason for avoiding the feature on previous systems was the expense of having multiple cartridge slots.
"dont lock yourself into thinking the way its always been... console should be advancing well beyond memory sticks."
What? Consoles are just now advancing to standard memory sticks. I'm thrilled that Sony and Nintendo are using conventional flash memory over that expensive junk they try to pawn onto us right now. Microsoft is no better, and they're not even offering the option in the next generation. You can speculate about wireless data transfer, but Microsoft required the purchase of memory cards for the Xbox, so unless they announce otherwise, there's no reason to believe they won't do it again. The 360's WiFi isn't even standard, so it would be lunacy to require that as the only way of transferring files.
Maybe stuff like that will be implemented in the future or on other consoles; I think it's more likely to happen on the Revolution due to the built-in WiFi. Even still, there will always be a place for solid, portable memory. It's convenient, relatively cheap, and it'll always work. Sony and Nintendo seemed to have figured that out, but I guess Microsoft is still trying to recoup their losses.
Here's another vote for Lode Runner. Such a simple, yet addicting game.
Interestinly enough, the lead programmer of a recent remake has put Lode Runner Online up as a free download on his site. It plays almost exactly the same the original with improved graphics and a few new gameplay elements. Very addicting stuff.
The Mario Kart franchise has sold far upwards of 15 million units between the US and Japan, even more if you consider other markets. The DS has probably sold 6 million systems worldwide. I'd say that's a fairly significant bunch of Mario Kart fans that don't have a DS. Not to mention the millions more that have played the game on a friend's system.
Here's the official list from Nintendo. So far Tony Hawk is the only game on that list to have a confirmed release date this year. Dynasty Warriors may launch this holiday season, but IGN doesn't have a release date for it. Telegames' Ultimate Card and Ultimate Brain Games have also been announced as online titles, though they don't appear on Nintendo's list for some reason.
The CAVE doesn't have a moving floor, though. That sounds like it would be very hard to implement, especially since the CAVE uses a rear-projection screen on the floor. You'd need some kind of transparent treadmill, which would probably reduce the immersion somewhat.
Here's more CAVE info for the original poster.
"Do you really think Nintendo is going to roll out a wireless network?"
Well, they will in Japan. It's probably much less practical in the US, due to the smaller population density. The best implementation would be as you suggested, to use standard WiFi hotspots. But if, for some reason, the DS requires a proprietary protocol, the only solution would be for Nintendo to place their own hotspots or provide users with a USB dongle that lets them use "NiFi" over an existing connection.
"...there is also talk about them releasing a wireless router of sorts that people like my parents that have broadband but only one computer with no wireless router can just plug into a spare USB port."
Actually, I think they could simply buy any wireless networking card or a USB wireless adapter, and use it to share their broadband network wirelessly. It should effectively turn their computer into a WiFi hotspot, or more specifically a software access point.
According to IGN's release date list, the first online game will be Tony Hawk DS. Strange, because Nintendo hasn't really even discussed the title apart from a brief showing at their E3 press conference. IGN's list claims Tony Hawk will be released October 18, about two weeks before Mario Kart.
:p
Of course, it's entirely possible that Tony Hawk will be delayed a bit. It doesn't seem very Nintendo-like to let a third-party game be the focal point of a new feature.
In other news:
In IGN's August 1 mailbag, Craig hints that Metroid Prime Hunters will likely be delayed into October, and possibly even November. It likely doesn't mean anything, but there was a small uproar when Nintendo announced that Metroid wouldn't be online. Perhaps it's been delayed to add online functionality?
Ugh... I just linked to IGN three times in one post. I feel dirty.
The ad in question, for those who didn't bother to click on the IGN article.
This campaign isn't too bad of an idea so far. The ad is a little obscure, but the launch of the WiFi network is still two or three months away. Something like this may pique the interest of fans, but it will be explained in more detail closer to the holidays. Besides, if the launch of Nintendo WiFi Connection is as successful as many people expect, news should spread rather quickly by word of mouth. I know a lot of people who are eyeing the DS to see how Mario Kart and Animal Crossing will turn out as online games.
Heh, I feel stupid now. Although maybe G4 should feel stupid since their list is a random assortment of games from 2004 and 2005. What's the point of a "Game of the Year" award when it spans multiple years?
Resident Evil 4 released in January of 2005. You'll be able to complain about this time next year when it gets shafted again. Voters will have long forgotten about RE4 while they're playing Twilight Princess and their Xbox 360s. Sad, because the game deserves some major recognition.
From GameSpot's article on the same subject:
"It also can't be understated that Nintendo saw a profit in its last quarter. By comparison, Sony Computer Entertainment today reported a quarterly loss of 5.9 billion yen ($52.6 million). Last week, Microsoft's Home and Entertainment division, which makes the Xbox, said it lost $179 million during its last quarter."
I've been on the fence about the GBA Movie Player for a few months now, but with this revalation, I think I'll finally have to get one. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than any GBA flash cart. Do you have any more info about it? I would hugely appreciate it.
Not only that, but God of War wasn't even that popular. It was a great game, and a hit among hardcore fans, but it never reached the levels of popularity like GTA, Zelda, or Halo. They would have been better off choosing a game that more than a million people have heard about.
True. Although because OoT had a larger number of dungeons, it had a greater number of areas based on previous dungeons. And OoT didn't reuse the same boss fights, which felt kind of lazy to me in WW. When you add OoT's awesome escape sequence, Ganon's Tower felt a lot more complete to me than WW's ending did.
"* The swordsmaster minigame where you had to land one thousand hits was equally terrible."
...And also 100% optional.
I agree with most of your other points, although the warp song could be discovered fairly early and it lessened sea travel tremendously.
The stealth parts could have been reworked a bit to make them less frustrating and more entertaining. It should have been more like Metal Gear Solid, where stealth is very useful, but you have a chance to fight if you're spotted. The enemies could have been made extra powerful to encourage stealth over fighting.
And the entire game could definitely have benefitted from a "hard mode" where enemies do twice or four times as much damage. Even the three original heart containers gave Link twelve hits from the average enemy with the current system. Enemies in OoT usually removed 1/2 or a full heart with each attack, and some removed up to four.
It also received the fourth perfect score ever from respected Japanese mag Famitsu. For all it's faults, it was still a darn good game. When a game's predecessor was the the top-rated game of all time, it will be placed under far greater scrutiny than most games.
I think it speaks for the game's quality when most critics can only name two or three noticeable flaws. In retrospect, I could easily list a few problems with Halo 2, Counter-Strike, GTA: San Andreas, World of Warcraft, Metroid Prime 2, or any other big game, but that doesn't detract from their quality. The fact remains that Wind Waker was overall the top-rated game of 2003, and that's pretty impressive in its own right.
Personally, the fact that Aonuma and Miyamoto have noticed the few flaws of the game and are taking steps to correct them gives me a lot more confidence in the sequel.
"I've not played Super Mario:Allstars, so I'll leave that one alone, but honsetly take a good look at it, you'll probably find that it fits the same mold you are complaning about, just in 2d."
You're right; it is. Probably even moreso, since there's no real "fighting", just running and jumping. (Super Mario All-Stars is a compilation of the first three NES Mario games, by the way.)
I agree with you completely; sticking to that mold doesn't make it a bad game, as the GP implied. Like you said, nearly every game fits that cookie-cutter, if you want to boil it down that far. It's not the mechanics that make games great, it's the execution of said mechanics. Superman 64 featured the same "running, jumping, and fighting" as Ocarina of Time, yet one of those games is lauded as videogame perfection, and the other is considered one of the poorest examples of game design ever created.
And for what it's worth, I think the jump to 3D has actually allowed for more gameplay variation than the Super Nintendo could have provided. We never could have seen games like Katamari Damacy, Super Monkey Ball, Pikmin, Metal Gear Solid, or Resident Evil 4 on the SNES. By its very nature it restricted games to running, jumping, and shooting. The only real variation was whether the camera was above your character or to the side.
Heh, my opinion is almost opposite. I loved Jabu-Jabu and the water temple, despite their difficulty. They were complicated, but they were intricately designed and felt far more coherent than any of WW's dungeons. The varying water level in the water temple was one of the most interesting mechanics in any Zelda dungeon (at least until MM's awesome water dungeon).
Wind Waker's dungeons, by contrast, felt very linear and contrived to me. Take the last dungeon, for example. First you predictably fight every previous boss, which are now much simpler. Then you solve some simplistic torch/boomerang puzzle, and run up three or four flights of nearly identical stairs until you reach the final room. It felt much more forced, nothing like the natural-feeling dungeons like OoT's Forest Temple, Spirit Temple, and Dodongo's Cavern. Heck, almost every dungeon in OoT felt very natural and realistic, almost like they were real architecture that had been overrun by monsters. And despite their attention to detail, they still played very smoothly as "dungeons".