It seems that this thread has degenerated into plugs for Intel. lol For people like me, next time please give some reasons that they should have bought intel, and how buying an ATI product 2.5 years ago relates to that.
Intel is to be credited for being the first to open up video! That aside, In practice, IF you are willing to run with a proprietary driver, Intel is still only a marginally acceptable option(IMHO). I am typing on a Core2Duo Centrino, but my experience is the opposite of yours. If I want a computer to "just work" with Linux, I have had the best luck with the AMD/ATI integrated chipsets. I expect things to get even better now that ATI/AMD is supposedly opening up the specs. Hopefully that means I can run free drivers soon!
Summary: If you are willing to run proprietary drivers, I have had better experience with AMD integrated chipsets
Well, if you are looking for PURE open source drivers right now, Intel may be your only choice.
If you are looking for something that works, and has OS drivers coming in the future, it is not so cut and dried.
Example, My wife has an dual core Turion, and I have a Core2Duo Centrino.
My Centrino is all sorts of grief in Ubuntu and Mandriva (and Vista). The wife's has been flawless.
Examples? I cannot play a movie in a 3D desktop, she can. I have constant problems trying to get wireless drivers to work in mine(native or ndis), I just install or upgrade on hers and it works.
Even in windows, I have a difficult time playing simple 3D games in Vista on the Centrino, so I installed XP. Yes, the Intel engineers seem to to have gotten time to work out the flaws in Vista. (nor will they I hear)
note, I am assuming it is sleep deprivation or drugs. But then again, maybe you created a BOT to do/. posts, and it just screwed up. lol If you did write one, you have to post a link to the code! But with a GPL 3 licence please, I wouldn't want MS to be able to use it, just think of/. being filled with MS fanboy jibberish! (yes, I know MS could technically use GPL 3.0, but they claim it is viral, and then they might have to opensource everything, lol)
The Intel integrated graphics is Crap. This is well documented. Not only is the hardware somewhat anemic, Intel does not give the engineers time to workaround all the bugs, so the drivers never mature to the state they should be in.
Right now, I am having the best luck with my ATI card in Linux (Compiz) but YMMV. (go figure, I used to like NV better)
Well, AMD CPU's often had less OCing headroom but they were not less stable.
The reason for any "CPU" instability was poor chipsets. (Thanks VIA and all)
Benefit of the doubt...Maybe you meant that AMD did not have "STABLE PLATFORMS" for business. Where they lock everything in for a given amount of time so business can buy the same (crap) hardware for two years to minimize maintainance. That was true.
Sure, but you are part of the 3% that buys leading edge products.(right?) As long as you are in the mainstream BOTH have strengths and weaknesses.
As long as you are buying a low-mid priced system, AMD competes with intel. If you are a gamer, all that really counts is the Video Card anyway.
And don't get me started on the Intel Chipsets... remember when they were king? Well, my Core2Duo Centrino laptop chipset has so many bugs... The video performance under Vista and Linux STINKS big time. (WinXP is decent, but not near AMD/ATI's level with the 780g chipset, that chipset rocks )
AMD is a bit weaker on Laptops now, they have new silicon coming that will change that.
No questions, Mandriva was light years ahead of everyone else. Then came 2008.1!
What is with bug 39925? How could a distro even be shipped with something like this? How could it not be fixed in days?
My commitment to mandriva has been shaken by this. (Ya, and my wireless connection got scrunched in the same "upgrade" and I have never gotten it back up, I've tried messing around a bit with ndis, but I have not spent enough time I guess. Chipset - Intel 3945ABG , and yes, this is the last Intel I will buy if I can help it)
If you can, make sure a 2008.1 NEVER happens again. It would be better to never release than to do that.
BTW, if someone has the knowledge and the time, how about LTSP support, no better way to introduce the masses to Mandriva? (And I would even love to run it in my home. What could be better?)
I bet this is tough news for a bunch of us. It's not that I have a problem sheding the geek moniker, I welcome it. But discovering you are not who you thought you were is still hard.
It is rather like growing up in a "not respected" family, and then finding out you were born a royal, and switched at birth.
I advocated the same thing as has happened as well. The replies insinuated I was an idiot and got modded up. My post, no mod points, but at least I wasn't marked flamebait.
An aside. I't good I didn't get modded down, I got modded down enough around that time. I made the mistake of saying I should really abandon my Perl experience and learn Python (because I feel it is better). Man, did I learn my lesson! Some Perl coder out there is such a rabid fanboy that it would make the other camps (apple, ms, evolution, whatever) envious!
Here is something I have never said before... Crimson Avenger eat crow! Ya, you got the mod points, but I got the Government to take my side! How is that for power!;) http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=597459&cid=23968419
The title "Some SSD devices are inefficient" just does not drive page clicks. So Tom sensationalizes some facts, omits others, runs questionable synthetic benches and Voila... Slashdot delivers the page hits.
Tom sometimes takes known "problems" and dramatizes them. After all, an objective view should not be allowed to stand in the way of revenue generation.
As others have pointed out. 1. The reason for inefficient drives was usually power hungry interface logic chips. 2. The newer drives are all better according to a Lenovo blog (thanks jlp2097)
And to top it off the numbers don't even add up (see PJRC's nice post above).
Not fair, you are putting words into my mouth. I never advocated a free pass, I even advocated new regs is as little as 3 months.
My whole argument revolves around 1. The damage being done by the freeze outweighs ANY potential benefits. 2. See point 1
That is it, that's all.
P.S. To say that not having the same EIS as a nuke plant is a "win" is like saying that a speeder "wins" because they get off easier than a murderer! They have almost no comparison. How does an earthquake affect a PV cell? (It doesn't) If you place a PV cell in a environmentally sensitive area, how hard is it to move?(easy) How much damage does it leave behind if you discover you have to move it?(almost nothing, not 100000 years of radioactive soil)
P.P.S Thanks for defending my right to say what you don't agree with. If everyone believed that, it would slow the decline of our country.
I am not bashing this guy, he can write whatever he wants, but before he gets modded to +5, interesting, make sure he knows what he is talking about. (I am ASSUMING he is not intentionally misleading the masses, and has no agenda)
His math is off, his efficiency figures are way off.
Please, those of you who believe in truth, mod up some of the replies that contain factual info.
A local heating issue with solar? It may not be as bad as you think.
We must not forget that Coal and Nuclear are very inefficient in converting heat to electricity. (it is a hard thing to do) So, we are comparing energy that is coming from the sun anyway, with waste heat energy we are creating.
If you really want to eliminate that "unnatural" heat, you put a film on PV cells that reflects back to space those wavelengths that the PV cell does not use. (yet) Now it creates less heat than normal soil!
If you are really concerned about localized heating, attack our asphault roads and tar roofs. It will be a LONG time before all our solar plants equal that!
I'm quite aware of Endangered Species, and I am quite aware that every time you do something there is a consequence.
BUT
The consequences of NOT doing anything seem higher. Also, if you have spent much time around even the seemingly innocuous drilling industry, let alone the mining industry, coal industry etc. you will have a hard time imagining PV cells causing more damage.(yet it exists all over)
If they could generate enough to just shut down the Ohio Valley it would seem enough. (about half of that pollution goes up into Canada) Do you realize that the 150 plants there, emit about the same amount of greenhouse gases as does all of Canada, including its transportation, industry and oil sands industries. Can you believe they emit about 4.5 million tonnes of sulphur dioxide and 1.6 million tonnes of nitrogen oxides annually - double the amount produced by all of Canada's major industries combined. And, we have no good figures on the environmental damage they do in our country, but it is estimated THIS pollution even kills thousands of Canadians a year. Can you imagine what it is doing in Ohio and New York? (As an aside, I wish more people would live near the northern border for a while so they could appreciate how much we neglect (screw over?) our northern neighbors. If we treat them that way, it is no wonder that the rest of the world is souring on us)
I very strongly advocate more research and responsible policy, I am not convinced that a two year wait is healthy. Start studying it now, and revamp the requirements as new info comes to light, 6 months from now, a year from now, five years from now. We cannot pretend a two year study will give us much conclusive data.
How will these solar installs (whether thermal or PV) possibly do more environmental damage than drilling more wells, burning coal, burning oil or dealing with the aftermath of a spent reactor?
Unless I am missing something big, lets keep approving AS we do the study. Who is really this scared of Solar. Not us common folk! Is it the coal industry, oil, wind? It has to be somebody, because this does not seem to make sense.
"It's highly debatable if C++ is all that efficient, compared to ANSI C for example."
It depends what you are doing, and what efficiencies you are talking about. If you are talking about scratching out every spare cycle out of the computer, yes, it is easier to be efficient in C. If the efficiency is programmer time and it is a huge project, generics and objects done properly can be irreplaceable.
My original(parent) post is currently marked Troll. My bad, I forgot the obligitory "This is not a troll, but" line. lol
Seriously though, I have a little time in perl, and I rarely script, so I am lazy and tend to want to default to it. Does that experience mean I should default to perl though? My perl is readable (ya sure, everyone thinks that), but when I have to read some of the stuff other write... Perl gives the person the power to write unreadable(bad?)code.
Anyway, If I were to start over, OR if I had to do a lot of scripting... I would endevor to master Python instead.
If the fact that I am not proud that I still write the odd line in Perl makes me a troll, then I hope we have a lot more trolls in this world!
Surprise, each language has area's they should and shouldn't be used in so as the weaknesses of each language are finally realized, the fanboys move on to the next fad.
Please keep your c++, somebody has to write those applications that require it. I don't hear many people knocking it myself, but I do know that most of the people coming through IT organizations SHOULD NOT even try to code c++. It takes a real mind to do all your own garbage collection, use templates properly and realize the power of operator overloading.
Ya, I realize that there are valid reasons for still using perl (like "I know it well because I have used it for years"), but at least we should be a bit embarrassed when we do.
I rarely script, but the little I have done with Python makes me think I should try HARDER to forget I ever learned perl.
Yes, I believe the OLPC will tank(the product as it exists today), but most of the good will last.
Because the hackers have created this new segment, we will see the cost of components drop lower in the LONG term than even the OLPC project could have done alone.
Because of this new segment, Linux will develop at a faster rate. Bringing additional benefits to the "have not" population that can not afford MS Tools.
The work by "Hackers" was a huge success. Take a look at the number of UMPC's that will ship in the next 3 years. Tens or hundreds of Millions. Yep, the work they dreamed up will sweep the world in ways they did not envision.
As far as the "failure" of the OLPC to sell in the millions. 1. A lot of money was being spent by MS and Intel to sink it. 2. It is hard to get $$$ out of many third world countries without graft. 3. It is hard to scale up the distribution and services side of an organization. 0-150 million in a few years is almost impossible on a shoestring budget.
Then, these problems are compounded by the unwillingness to gain volume by selling at retail. Then, they tick off the hardest core supporters by embracing MS.
Your welcome for the lecture. Of course I followed the thread. It said NOTHING of rewriting QT.
It was talking about the value of QT relative to the value of freedom. We have many technologies for window managers, but without freedom we have nothing, and certainly wouldn't have (m)any of them.
Sorry if you don't like "my lecture", but I was actually more upset with your comment being modded up. When I make a mistake, I don't want to be modded up, just let the comment sit, and everyone will skim right past it. By modding up my mistake, you point it out to everyone, and make me look foolish.
Slashdot Mirror
It seems that this thread has degenerated into plugs for Intel. lol
For people like me, next time please give some reasons that they should have bought intel, and how buying an ATI product 2.5 years ago relates to that.
Intel is to be credited for being the first to open up video!
That aside,
In practice, IF you are willing to run with a proprietary driver, Intel is still only a marginally acceptable option(IMHO). I am typing on a Core2Duo Centrino, but my experience is the opposite of yours. If I want a computer to "just work" with Linux, I have had the best luck with the AMD/ATI integrated chipsets. I expect things to get even better now that ATI/AMD is supposedly opening up the specs. Hopefully that means I can run free drivers soon!
Summary: If you are willing to run proprietary drivers, I have had better experience with AMD integrated chipsets
Well, if you are looking for PURE open source drivers right now, Intel may be your only choice.
If you are looking for something that works, and has OS drivers coming in the future, it is not so cut and dried.
Example, My wife has an dual core Turion, and I have a Core2Duo Centrino.
My Centrino is all sorts of grief in Ubuntu and Mandriva (and Vista). The wife's has been flawless.
Examples?
I cannot play a movie in a 3D desktop, she can.
I have constant problems trying to get wireless drivers to work in mine(native or ndis), I just install or upgrade on hers and it works.
Even in windows, I have a difficult time playing simple 3D games in Vista on the Centrino, so I installed XP. Yes, the Intel engineers seem to to have gotten time to work out the flaws in Vista. (nor will they I hear)
Get some sleep, you are not making sense.
note, I am assuming it is sleep deprivation or drugs. /. posts, and it just screwed up. lol /. being filled with MS fanboy jibberish! (yes, I know MS could technically use GPL 3.0, but they claim it is viral, and then they might have to opensource everything, lol)
But then again, maybe you created a BOT to do
If you did write one, you have to post a link to the code! But with a GPL 3 licence please, I wouldn't want MS to be able to use it, just think of
I didn't even know Intel made graphics cards!
The Intel integrated graphics is Crap. This is well documented. Not only is the hardware somewhat anemic, Intel does not give the engineers time to workaround all the bugs, so the drivers never mature to the state they should be in.
Right now, I am having the best luck with my ATI card in Linux (Compiz) but YMMV. (go figure, I used to like NV better)
Well, AMD CPU's often had less OCing headroom but they were not less stable.
The reason for any "CPU" instability was poor chipsets. (Thanks VIA and all)
Benefit of the doubt...Maybe you meant that AMD did not have "STABLE PLATFORMS" for business. Where they lock everything in for a given amount of time so business can buy the same (crap) hardware for two years to minimize maintainance. That was true.
Sure, but you are part of the 3% that buys leading edge products.(right?) As long as you are in the mainstream BOTH have strengths and weaknesses.
As long as you are buying a low-mid priced system, AMD competes with intel. If you are a gamer, all that really counts is the Video Card anyway.
And don't get me started on the Intel Chipsets... remember when they were king? Well, my Core2Duo Centrino laptop chipset has so many bugs... The video performance under Vista and Linux STINKS big time. (WinXP is decent, but not near AMD/ATI's level with the 780g chipset, that chipset rocks )
AMD is a bit weaker on Laptops now, they have new silicon coming that will change that.
Thanks for all your work in the past.
May I vent?
No questions, Mandriva was light years ahead of everyone else.
Then came 2008.1!
What is with bug 39925? How could a distro even be shipped with something like this? How could it not be fixed in days?
My commitment to mandriva has been shaken by this. (Ya, and my wireless connection got scrunched in the same "upgrade" and I have never gotten it back up, I've tried messing around a bit with ndis, but I have not spent enough time I guess. Chipset - Intel 3945ABG , and yes, this is the last Intel I will buy if I can help it)
If you can, make sure a 2008.1 NEVER happens again. It would be better to never release than to do that.
BTW, if someone has the knowledge and the time, how about LTSP support, no better way to introduce the masses to Mandriva? (And I would even love to run it in my home. What could be better?)
I bet this is tough news for a bunch of us. It's not that I have a problem sheding the geek moniker, I welcome it.
But discovering you are not who you thought you were is still hard.
It is rather like growing up in a "not respected" family, and then finding out you were born a royal, and switched at birth.
I advocated the same thing as has happened as well. The replies insinuated I was an idiot and got modded up.
My post, no mod points, but at least I wasn't marked flamebait.
An aside. I't good I didn't get modded down, I got modded down enough around that time. I made the mistake of saying I should really abandon my Perl experience and learn Python (because I feel it is better).
Man, did I learn my lesson! Some Perl coder out there is such a rabid fanboy that it would make the other camps (apple, ms, evolution, whatever) envious!
This cannot happen, it seems to make sense!
Here is something I have never said before... Crimson Avenger eat crow! Ya, you got the mod points, but I got the Government to take my side! How is that for power! ;)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=597459&cid=23968419
The title "Some SSD devices are inefficient" just does not drive page clicks. So Tom sensationalizes some facts, omits others, runs questionable synthetic benches and Voila... Slashdot delivers the page hits.
Tom sometimes takes known "problems" and dramatizes them. After all, an objective view should not be allowed to stand in the way of revenue generation.
As others have pointed out.
1. The reason for inefficient drives was usually power hungry interface logic chips.
2. The newer drives are all better according to a Lenovo blog (thanks jlp2097)
And to top it off the numbers don't even add up (see PJRC's nice post above).
Not fair, you are putting words into my mouth. I never advocated a free pass, I even advocated new regs is as little as 3 months.
My whole argument revolves around
1. The damage being done by the freeze outweighs ANY potential benefits.
2. See point 1
That is it, that's all.
P.S.
To say that not having the same EIS as a nuke plant is a "win" is like saying that a speeder "wins" because they get off easier than a murderer!
They have almost no comparison.
How does an earthquake affect a PV cell? (It doesn't)
If you place a PV cell in a environmentally sensitive area, how hard is it to move?(easy) How much damage does it leave behind if you discover you have to move it?(almost nothing, not 100000 years of radioactive soil)
P.P.S Thanks for defending my right to say what you don't agree with. If everyone believed that, it would slow the decline of our country.
I am not bashing this guy, he can write whatever he wants, but before he gets modded to +5, interesting, make sure he knows what he is talking about. (I am ASSUMING he is not intentionally misleading the masses, and has no agenda)
His math is off, his efficiency figures are way off.
Please, those of you who believe in truth, mod up some of the replies that contain factual info.
Thanks
A local heating issue with solar? It may not be as bad as you think.
We must not forget that Coal and Nuclear are very inefficient in converting heat to electricity. (it is a hard thing to do)
So, we are comparing energy that is coming from the sun anyway, with waste heat energy we are creating.
If you really want to eliminate that "unnatural" heat, you put a film on PV cells that reflects back to space those wavelengths that the PV cell does not use. (yet) Now it creates less heat than normal soil!
If you are really concerned about localized heating, attack our asphault roads and tar roofs. It will be a LONG time before all our solar plants equal that!
I'm quite aware of Endangered Species, and I am quite aware that every time you do something there is a consequence.
BUT
The consequences of NOT doing anything seem higher. Also, if you have spent much time around even the seemingly innocuous drilling industry, let alone the mining industry, coal industry etc. you will have a hard time imagining PV cells causing more damage.(yet it exists all over)
If they could generate enough to just shut down the Ohio Valley it would seem enough.
(about half of that pollution goes up into Canada)
Do you realize that the 150 plants there, emit about the same amount of greenhouse gases as does all of Canada, including its transportation, industry and oil sands industries.
Can you believe they emit about 4.5 million tonnes of sulphur dioxide and 1.6 million tonnes of nitrogen oxides annually - double the amount produced by all of Canada's major industries combined.
And, we have no good figures on the environmental damage they do in our country, but it is estimated THIS pollution even kills thousands of Canadians a year. Can you imagine what it is doing in Ohio and New York?
(As an aside, I wish more people would live near the northern border for a while so they could appreciate how much we neglect (screw over?) our northern neighbors. If we treat them that way, it is no wonder that the rest of the world is souring on us)
I very strongly advocate more research and responsible policy, I am not convinced that a two year wait is healthy. Start studying it now, and revamp the requirements as new info comes to light, 6 months from now, a year from now, five years from now.
We cannot pretend a two year study will give us much conclusive data.
I am gapping I think.
How will these solar installs (whether thermal or PV) possibly do more environmental damage than drilling more wells, burning coal, burning oil or dealing with the aftermath of a spent reactor?
Unless I am missing something big, lets keep approving AS we do the study. Who is really this scared of Solar. Not us common folk! Is it the coal industry, oil, wind? It has to be somebody, because this does not seem to make sense.
"It's highly debatable if C++ is all that efficient, compared to ANSI C for example."
It depends what you are doing, and what efficiencies you are talking about.
If you are talking about scratching out every spare cycle out of the computer, yes, it is easier to be efficient in C.
If the efficiency is programmer time and it is a huge project, generics and objects done properly can be irreplaceable.
My original(parent) post is currently marked Troll. My bad, I forgot the obligitory "This is not a troll, but" line. lol
Seriously though, I have a little time in perl, and I rarely script, so I am lazy and tend to want to default to it.
Does that experience mean I should default to perl though? My perl is readable (ya sure, everyone thinks that), but when I have to read some of the stuff other write... Perl gives the person the power to write unreadable(bad?)code.
Anyway, If I were to start over, OR if I had to do a lot of scripting... I would endevor to master Python instead.
If the fact that I am not proud that I still write the odd line in Perl makes me a troll, then I hope we have a lot more trolls in this world!
Surprise, each language has area's they should and shouldn't be used in so as the weaknesses of each language are finally realized, the fanboys move on to the next fad.
Please keep your c++, somebody has to write those applications that require it. I don't hear many people knocking it myself, but I do know that most of the people coming through IT organizations SHOULD NOT even try to code c++.
It takes a real mind to do all your own garbage collection, use templates properly and realize the power of operator overloading.
Ya, I realize that there are valid reasons for still using perl (like "I know it well because I have used it for years"), but at least we should be a bit embarrassed when we do.
I rarely script, but the little I have done with Python makes me think I should try HARDER to forget I ever learned perl.
Alright, TFA says "IT Professionals" of which I bet only 1/3 has access to such info. That would imply all snoop that can.
I don't buy that.
Sorry about continuing my post this way.
Yes, I believe the OLPC will tank(the product as it exists today), but most of the good will last.
Because the hackers have created this new segment, we will see the cost of components drop lower in the LONG term than even the OLPC project could have done alone.
Because of this new segment, Linux will develop at a faster rate. Bringing additional benefits to the "have not" population that can not afford MS Tools.
The work by "Hackers" was a huge success. Take a look at the number of UMPC's that will ship in the next 3 years. Tens or hundreds of Millions.
Yep, the work they dreamed up will sweep the world in ways they did not envision.
As far as the "failure" of the OLPC to sell in the millions.
1. A lot of money was being spent by MS and Intel to sink it.
2. It is hard to get $$$ out of many third world countries without graft.
3. It is hard to scale up the distribution and services side of an organization. 0-150 million in a few years is almost impossible on a shoestring budget.
Then, these problems are compounded by the unwillingness to gain volume by selling at retail. Then, they tick off the hardest core supporters by embracing MS.
Yep, this thing will tank.
lol
Your welcome for the lecture. Of course I followed the thread. It said NOTHING of rewriting QT.
It was talking about the value of QT relative to the value of freedom. We have many technologies for window managers, but without freedom we have nothing, and certainly wouldn't have (m)any of them.
Sorry if you don't like "my lecture", but I was actually more upset with your comment being modded up.
When I make a mistake, I don't want to be modded up, just let the comment sit, and everyone will skim right past it. By modding up my mistake, you point it out to everyone, and make me look foolish.
As the previous guy said
You don't rewrite, you fork.
If you don't know the basics of a topic, don't post.