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Does an Open Java Really Matter?
snydeq writes "Fatal Exception's Neil McAllister questions the relevance of the recent opening of Java given the wealth of options open source developers enjoy today. Sure, as the first full-blooded Java implementation available under a 100 percent Free Software license, RedHat's IcedTea pushes aside open source objections to developing in Java. Yet, McAllister asks, if Java really were released today, brand-new, would it be a tool you'd choose? 'The problem, as I see it, is twofold,' he writes. 'First, as the Java platform has matured, it has become incredibly complex. Today it's possible to do anything with Java, but no one developer can do everything — there simply aren't enough hours in the day to learn it all. Second, and most important, even as Java has stretched outward to embrace more concepts and technologies — adding APIs and language features as it goes — newer, more lightweight tools have appeared that do most of what Java aims to do. And they often do it better.'" Since Java itself never mattered except to sell books, I still don't see why opening it matters.
Some would say the same about Slashdot.
I just don't understand why most of /. loves java and sun so much. I really really dont like it. Everything I have ever used that ran in java was horridly cludgey and just plain annoying to use. Insight please? Just what is so great about it?
"Since Java itself never mattered except to sell books, I still don't see why opening it matters."
What an ignorant and irresponsible editorial comment. Care to substantiate that claim, or even clarify what it means for a language to "matter?"
Really.
How many times have you been screwed over by a vendor who thinks they know best? (Symantec / L0phtcrack anyone?)
"It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
I find it funny that we have statements like "Java never mattered except to sell books", while I distinctly remember hordes of posters on this very site only a few years ago, rabidly arguing that Java is the best thing ever and that nobody will be using anything but Java in the future. Now, we have hordes of Ruby, Python, and what-not advocates saying the same things. I guess it's their turn. I'll just keep my C++, thank you very much, which nobody advocates these days, and everyone says is obsolete, too complicated, and inherently broken. Go ahead, mod me as flamebait! I'm used to it.
Since Java itself never mattered except to sell books, I still don't see why opening it matters. For a system that does not matter except to sell books, it sure has a large install base.
If you've ever wanted to run a Java app on a debian box, you know why this matters.
The strictly FOSS distros have historically refused to include a Java package due to its non-Free license. There's some really good Java software out there, and without a pre-built java package, it was just that much harder to access them.
I guess OpenOffice.org doesn't matter either then...
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
I am not a programmer myself, but i know a bunch, and just about every one I know or have talked languages with systematically abhor Java (the words slow and bloated come up often) and most apps written in Java I have used have felt half-hearted. Other then the cross-platform capability are there real advantages to it?
It's not about practicality or relevance, it's about Sun setting an example and living up to saying what it would do.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
if Java really were released today, brand-new, would it be a tool you'd choose
If Windows were released today, brand-new, would it be a tool you'd choose?
Who cares. It's not today that it's released, and the importance of availability, mind-share and already developed applications around it, gives it a clear importance, even if you have better hammers for your particular nail.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
...the only place I ever, ever see Ruby mentioned is on Slashdot.
Surely it would be better to talk about the real world, ie php. That is, if we're talking about relevance and market share and, you know, reality.
You need to know Java.
It's that simple. It doesn't seem to matter that the typical Java app is N times larger than it's c++ counterpart or that you need a 64bit box with NGb of RAM to make it run acceptably. Corporate IT are basically only interested in hiring Java developers.
Deleted
Isn't that a bit of a flamebait now...?
Java is hugely complex but saying it never mattered is a bit extreme methinks? There is, after all, a huge amount of Java software out there. And Java did do a hell of a lot to popularize virtual machines as well.
Never mattered? While we're at it we could add that the Amiga never mattered because it wasn't ultimately that successful, right?
.: Max Romantschuk
Since Java itself never mattered except to sell books, I still don't see why opening it matters.
Slashdot: News that matters only to CmdrTaco?
I am not a professional programmer, so I have the luxury of getting to choose my tools and switch whenever I want to. I have tried several times over the past to pick up Java, but each time I found it too heavy for what I intended to use it for. Kind of like hunting for deer with a M2 Browning. Personally, I use Python or Ruby for pretty much everything I do. Then again, the biggest project I've ever done was only about 1,000 lines of Python. It was a program for calculating trade between worlds in our http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/ game.
>>
Since Java itself never mattered except to sell books, I still don't see why opening it matters.
>>
The day job could buy an awful lot of books with the $X0 million worth of Big Freaking Enterprise Apps we have written in (mostly) Java. Its like any other tool: there are some places where it makes excellent sense, some where it does not, and I have my own personal tastes for when I would use it or not. (Cards on the table: I do proprietary desktop Java development in my spare time and BFEwebA at the day job, but have been mixing in a bit of Rails programming lately.)
At the end of the day, what matters is "Does Java help us make our customers happy?" It does. Despite how skull-crushingly boring writing CRUD apps can be, for our customers having the things available and working means the difference kissing their kids at 6 PM or being stuck at the office at 2 AM wondering if they will still have a job in 5 hours.
So how does opening Java matter? Well, even in an extraordinarily mature platform, you'll sometimes find weird, off the wall, how the heck did that happen issues with particular combinations of software. Enterprise Computing = combinitorially explosive numbers of possible adverse reactions. We've got at least 150 packages in the system, many of which have to interoperate with code which has not seen the light of day since the mid-90s.
You'd think the odds of actually having to touch stuff deep in the bowels of the infrastructure are pretty low, but believe it or not we have our own little fork of, e.g, Tomcat 4.1 in production use *to this day* to get around a particular classloader issue that got fixed in later releases. (We can't upgrade that particular customer at the moment. Its a long story and if you've ever worked in industry you've heard the basic gist before.) Java being open means there is one less place for issues to be totally inaccessible should we need to work around them.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
The concept matters, now java can be part of free solutions. As java being a programming language very complete and easy to learn, its a good way to put java to others uses. Making better compilers, or better tools to use java like a mono maybe.
Sun is loosing ground to .NET, so they have to regain developer. I have to admit that Open Java is very appealing to me, since I feel that the language/platform does have something unique to offer that is not available anywhere else.
Furthermore, I don't care what anyone says about .NET/Mono. It is a closed Microsoft technology that Mono will perpetually play catch-up to. It cannot replace what (Open) Java has to offer.
Goodbye Slashdot. You've changed.
I've considered spending time to learn java better, and knowing that the JVM is open sourced is a good thing, but Java as a whole would have benefitted from being open sourced a long time ago, when some of the community that uses it could have fed knowledge and information back into the language and VM design.
Now it's basically a niche product that's more or less complete, and we either have to accept it as is for use or break compatibility with existing code to make any major mods to it.
The major advantages java has always had are 1) Increased programmer productivity and 2) Code portability. Both of these are achieved by other platforms now in different ways, so Java is now one of many instead of the only solution.
Open sourcing it is more insurance for its users than anything else... it won't drive a Java renaissance any more than open source Solaris will, because there are already good alternatives.
Sun... producing good open source products that would have better been open sourced years ago.
Erik
We're a Python shop. It does everything Java does that we need it to do, but is actually fun to write. If Python disappeared tomorrow, though, Java would be a no-brainer. It's cross-platform and wouldn't leave us beholden to the good wishes of Redmond.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Like it or not, Java is the no.1 language, at least claimed by an article referenced here: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/29/163253 The last line of the article pretty much gives an indication of the quality of the authors knowledge.
The real differences between an open java and the free java implementations maintained by companies like Sun and IBM are religious in nature. That is, they only matter to zealots obsessed with their own narrow interpretations. Most of us are moderates who only want to write great software. The different is moot to us moderates.
So, depending on who you talk to...
(C | C++ | Java) is the ultimate programming language.
Now we're being told that compiled languages are passe' and all you need is
(Perl | Python | AJAX).
In the meantime, the -art- and -science- of programming language design seems to have withered away due to lack of interest from the developer community.
From what I've seen over the last 30 years:
1. Programing Languages -DO- make a difference in both individual productivity and organizational effectiveness. And the latter is -much more important- than the former for anything bigger than a breadbox.
2. Management doesn't believe #1. In fact, management doesn't believe in software engineering. Instead, management wants to throw bodies at problems to make impossible schedules, with little concern for quality of the product. At best, managers throw process (and SEI CMM/CMM-I) at the hoards of programmers, believing that process is a substitute for
(a) developer talent
(b) product quality
So I guess ( 1 & 2) together explain the demise of programming language design. And all we can pray for is increases in second-order tools such as debuggers and, if we're really good, tools like static analyzers, to make up for the sh*tty set of current (popular) programming languages. And as end users, bugs and security holes will continue to be chronic results...
dave
Blackdown on Linux is the most compelling reason to OSS java.
Personally I'm very pleased that they opened it. I much prefer to write my code against the same runtime that will be used to run it.
I hate going down this road.. But Java Is a crippled language these days... Its is Very very rare to find a java app that is not tied to a platform in some way... (Be it a Java app that is tied to a specific browser or OS or Version of Java).. That its simply easier and faster to find a App that was natively complied for the platform you are using.
If Java wasn't being taught in pretty much every Teaching institution I think we would not see any Java apps out there...
Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
Java doesn't matter in some small circles or groups. In some others, it does. There are many application that use Java in many ways and see a great benefit.
It matters to the people who use it to get their work done. They exist in significant numbers. Open Java matters only to the subset of people who need perfect openness and use Java.
This whole topic is wrapped up in the vain need some people have that their programming language choices (of all things) be validated by some sort of public acceptance. So your personal answer to this question might have more to do about your feelings about yourself than about the world at-large. See CmdrTaco for an example.
This is total bullcrap. /. editor have no clue at all & I can only pray they've never had any responsability in any project in whatever environment.
Both the article author &
I'd write a rebuttal but it's just not worth the effort
Java was the first step towards complete hardware and os independence in a development platform. It's not perfect, but we should be thankful for what it represents and even more thankful to Sun for giving to the community. Even if it isn't 100% open source (because of third-party code), it is still free to use! Companies like IBM, JBoss, etc. have made $$$ on Sun's willingness to share Java. Respect Sun, respect Java.
"Slow JVMs. More syntax than C. Lame." -- CmdrTaco
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Java is to .Net as USSR was to USA
Clunky, slow, and inefficient
But providing enough threat to keep high tech development rolling along
Yay, a Rickroll, that's so new and still funny.
Coming from CmdrTaco, that's a tad harsh (flamebait?), especially in light of the fact that a LOT of Open Source activity these days centres around people building stuff in Java.
I'd go as far as to claim that a lot of know-how on how to design decent web frameworks, GUI toolkits happened in the Java world (well, TBH, there's Smalltalk too, but who, these days, is building anything substantial in Smalltalk?). The reason why we're not still stuck with crap like EJB 1.1, Topkink, etc, is because a huge army of very smart Open Source hackers are building excellent stuff, which in turn, have become defacto standards (to wit, Hibernate to EJB3, Spring, Struts 2, Seam, Tapestry).
Nine times out of ten, the Open Source alternative is faster, smaller, and more reliable. It'll be nice to finally see that happen to the JVM itself, once momentum builds behind IcedTea/ClassPath.
I work building proprietary, boring business apps in Java, however one of the big pleasures of my job is that there's just about always a very good Open Source implementation of any application server, database, library, GUI framework, whatever, that you can think of. The only missing piece that I can really see at this point standing in the way of making the entire stack 100% Open Source from top to bottom is the JVM. This is particularly important to the RMS long-hair crowd who've agonised for years about the Java Trap.
First, as the Java platform has matured, it has become incredibly complex. Today it's possible to do anything with Java, but no one developer can do everything
What developer has to do everything? We use Java to run our systems without using all the complex frameworks that you seem to be referring to. It does the job. Just because people have developed over-engineered frameworks with a language doesn't detract from the the value of that language.
There are 0x40000000 types of people: those who understand 32-bit IEEE 754 floating point, and those who don't.
1. Java, 2. C, 3. C++, 4. PHP, 5. VB. ("The ratings are based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide, courses and third party vendors.")
"It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
"Since Java itself never mattered except to sell books..."
Wow...that has to be one of the most idiotic statements I've ever read from one of you guys.
I'm no Java evangelist, but saying Java itself never mattered is like saying C (or even C++) never mattered - it just smacks of total ignorance.
Java has had a HUGE impact on software development, especially in the enterprise. I won't say it's all been great...but it's certainly made a difference in a lot of areas.
If the language really never matter, there would not be such a large community of developers using Java, and Microsoft would not have bothered to change their entire development platform to be so much like it (i.e. C#/CLR/.NET).
I'd thought you Slashdot guys were smarter than this. I guess I was wrong.
> Since Java itself never mattered except to sell books, I still don't see why opening it matters. This is exactly what smileys are for! Anyways, I don't know what's up with all the Java hate seeing how most OSS uses it. Ruby doesn't have unicode support for christ sake! Flame that if you really need to ...
___
No power in the 'verse can stop me
I don't mind fillers, but boring, repetitive fillers, on the other hand...
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
I am far more fearful of an open fragmented Java than I was of closed Java.
The fact that Java had a "Sugar Daddy" to regulate it and support it with strong standard libraries made it very appealing to Corp and Gov users. I don't mind an experimental open source implementation but there has to be a stable, commercially viable alternative around that companies can depend on (read hold liable) or the whole platform slowly losses its appeal.
The "Java never mattered" thing is flamebait . We all know that it is part of the backbone of many commercial web solutions. There are also many projects that just couldn't have existed with it. The argument of validity is pretty much over.
I primarily use C/C++ professionally but I have used Java in the past as well as C# and a few Scripting languages (Perl,Python). I can say that for certain software solutions there is no better alternative to Java. I can say the same for C++,C# and Perl.
That's where I'm at as well. For the 50/80/90/100% (usually 100%) of a program for which performance is not critical, Python just kills Java with respect to other factors. And for the 50/20/10% of the program for which performance is critical, Java is just too damn slow (even idiomatic C++ is often too slow). Plus, Java doesn't like to be called from other languages--it really wants to be "boss".
I've used Java from one of the first alpha releases, but it just hasn't panned out...
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Java has its problems, but it's actually a great stable platform. I think people carp about Java's flaws because it is so popular, taking shots at the leader. In reality, Java is a huge and boring but effective ecosystem if you want to deliver a piece of software and have it just work.
It's not sexy, but jeez on linux, windows, and Mac, I've built java code and moved the .jars all all over the place, and darned if it doesn't do what it's supposed to, like an old truck that just works carts around all sorts of work.
With Java being open, we all benefit from its increased spread as an open and reliable platform -- like C. Depending on Java looked a more iffy when it was so tied to Sun. Your source code is such an expensive investment, you don't want to take weird risks (cough .net cough). With Java open ... well now it looks like a very safe, neutral choice.
You can write C code, and since it's open, you know your code would work all over. Java has a future that way too now.
C is still great for its niche, but (flame on) Java delivers 10x more capability in its libraries. C is a creature of the 1970's, so you don't get so much (I *love* C, but get a lot more done in Java). Also, the optimizations in HotSpot are awesome, making languages which run on the JVM look like the future. I hear if you want to see Java with the cruft stripped away, check out Scala.
Please go fuck yourself
Mods, please mod parent down, and do not click the link. It leads to http://www.raygoldmodels.com/ which is impossible to exit short of killing your web browser due to endless message popups.
(On a related note does anyone know of a way to deal with web pages that begin spewing endless modal dialogs, one after another?)
You may like in or not, but if you have ever _worked_ in a field remotely linked to computer programming, you would know that Java is the industry standard for big serious projects. Period.
The rest is a matter of personal taste.
Really. When version 1.4 came out it started to be usable. Contrary to the lore it was NOT ineffcient to use AWT. At least not if you wanted t opur a GUI to your PERL/Jython/etc whatever Program. And for the eas of installation under debian open source tools matter. I only use open source tools now for development and I am much happier because of reduced installation complexity
...the author shutting his mouth.
Java is transformed UML diagrams filled with obvious and clear code. Some programming languages may be more powerful (in expressing, like Python/Ruby), but Java can be understood better as there are not so much options, what a given code could mean (at runtime). I think that's the reason it has the best automated tools (IDEs; refactoring). Aside from C/C++ maybe, they have a head start.
On topic: I believe that open sourcing will help influence and reflecting between the projects (and maybe ease bug finding?).
PS: There's lots of stuff I wouldn't use Java for, though.
The open assholes of the slashdot mods....fucking fags.
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/1816257&tid=107
I think I know what you're doing - purposely trolling in order to incite a flamewar, driving up hits and thus ad impressions.
It won't work though; surely the vast majority of your readership browses with Firefox and some sort of adblocking system.
I mean it can't be that you genuinely believe that arguably the most often-used language for enterprise and commercial web development work "doesn't matter"; a 30 second search on any popular job website would dissuade you of that infantile notion.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I use Debian. And with Java to be able to go into main it makes for even less hassle with Debian. Even if you don't use Java there are many programs written for it.
*Sigh* Every now and then, we have proclamations about this [New Language] will totally replace [Old Language]. Yet almost 50 years after COBOL was first invented, it is still being used today. Why? Because it still works. Realize that businesses and people don't change for change's sake. There has to be a compelling reason to replace [Old Language] with [New Language]. Usually [New Language] has this X feature doesn't cut it. Most of the time, older code is replaced when the system is being replaced, i.e. hardware upgrades.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
and I'm not an author.
Every time java comes up as a near-dying language, people sprout up saying that there are plenty of java jobs out there. That it's still in high demand.
Why aren't there more open source applications written in java?
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is azureus (now zune), which is not exactly known for it's small resource footprint. In the closed source freeware realm, jalbum is available and quite nice to use.
Both of these are a pain in the ass to install under Ubuntu, by the way. Jalbum makes you manually find the java runtime environment on installation, while azureus packages for Ubuntu either don't work or quite outdated.
Any other great free java apps of substance?
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
This is one of the reasons that is keeping .NET from getting more share. Many companies run systems other than Windows. Also more software is moving away from the desktop. Although Google Apps isn't as fully featured as MS Office, it goes to show you that you don't necessarily need a desktop app for everything.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
"well, TBH, there's Smalltalk too, but who, these days, is building anything substantial in Smalltalk?)"
Perhaps http://www.seaside.st/ ? Financial industry? If anything, Smalltalk is picking up a lot more momentum and popularity recently. It's a great alternative if you're sick of Java or C# or don't buy into Rails hype. That said, I agree with everything else you said. I too work with Java (and C#) quite often and I have to say that Java has so many open source libraries and support it's amazing and makes up for many of the things I hate.
To ask if Java were new we would use it today, while valid as an abstract and absolute measure, is irrelevant in today's software world context.
Java is HUGELY entrenched in today's business software market, probably even more so if one weights by overall company valuation (i.e. Java's market share by company valuation is substantial, perhaps even dominant).
Open sourcing it matters since Java's growth and maintenance matter, as the investment in Java is substantial and unlikely to change any time soon.
Java's never gonna be the hot young thing in programming again (if it ever was), but that's irrelevant to the question of open sourcing it. Java has substantial value, and open sourcing software of value matters. Doing things that alter the growth and maintenance plans of a heavily vested technology matter.
Further, this:
is a tautology. No developer can do everything with C++ either, that doesn't lessen its value or relevance. Neither does Java's complexity or unwieldiness lessen the value gained in being able to learn from and modify how it has implemented things.
I personally don't get this constant desire on some people's part to denigrate Java. Some sort of Comp Sci elitism for the business language?
Claiming open sourcing Java doesn't matter is like claiming open sourcing windows wouldn't matter; the same arguments apply. Windows is unwieldy and complex, and competing software generally does things better than windows.
I made a hell of a lot more coding Java than writing books about it.
Slow news day, huh? What's next, what Lawrence Lessig had for lunch, followed by moral outrage over being charged cash money for a product or service?
Java was a good idea, but there are lots of other languages that came before that had all the characteristics you describe. I would argue that most of those already did a better job than Java but were marketed or supported poorly at various stages.
I use .NET every day as well as Java and I agree MS did a better job. MSIL is a great concept, but unfortunately too much of the framework has deep hooks in windows to work in whole cross platform. Mono of course tries to solve this issue, but I wish MS would be a little more careful about how much they bake windows into everything.
I think the answer is to use the best language for the job and that means Java is long from being irrelevant given the wealth of functionality available to us today.
I program in Java because both for it's platform independence and for the fact that if you sign a Java applet and embed it in a web page you are pretty much able to do whatever a fully-fledged Java application could do, like access the full file system.
I know of no other platform that allows you to write true "web apps" that can rival the stand-alone ones.
Share Files To Large To E-mail
..for the sole reason that it's a frickin' memory hog. Huuuuge footprint.
Actually, Java has lots of data....
Seriously though, the applets point is a joke. Applets were dead well before Flash was anything more than an animation tool. Applets always have and always will suck, that's why we have so much shit DHTML to deal with; it was easier to hack it together with a document markup and some (at the time) piece of shit scripting language that had to run correctly on up to six disparate platforms at a time, because even THEN it was easier and better than applets. If you think applets ever had any real significance to Java's maturity, I'd guess you've been off coding .net for the last 7 years.
Java is entrenched in business server apps, and overall that's probably still growing. 20 years? Try 80.
It was a joke.
include $sig;
1;
At least thats what I think. When it comes to geeks and such you can be pretty sure that a large amount is using *nix (-like) operating systems. And when looking at that market I think its safe to say that a majority will be using Linux. No statements from me about whats better and whats worse, I'm only trying to do the numbers here.
And what is keeping Java as it was outside of this "geek market"? The license which made it impossible for some bigger names to allow the inclusion of Java. So considering how Sun is trying hard to keep its market share as large as possible its only natural for them to try and make Java "compatible" with the powers that be.
But I think thats also the only thing which will matter here; the inclusion of Java. I doubt that just because Java is included with Linux will automatically imply that more people would use it. It might make things a little more reachable but thats about it. In the end Java will merely be one of the many languages out there. So IMO it is a nice move but I don't see the big advantages which Sun apparently sees. And for the record; I am a Java freak myself, been using and programming Java for a few years now and no plans to switch yet ;-)
Python has the Global Interpreter Lock, which means even though there are threads, they don't execute concurrently. Too bad if your server has several processors / cores.
That's what fork is for. I had my fill of "everything runs in the same address space" in my MSDOS days--threads are just a return to that nightmare."Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Either you are a terrible writer, or your understanding of what Java does is very bad.
1) Java CPU usage is actually quite good these days, with modern VM's the code is all compiled on the fly and can be faster than C++ or C, but with no worries like stack overflows (there are always , of course, other worries...).
2) "Flash has destroyed Java market share". What market share? Applets on the browser never took off, there was no market share there to steal. Where Java went on to be huge, and where it continues to grow, is in enterprise web applications/servers and to a lesser extent desktop applications.
You think it's going to take 20 years to die, but use of Java is still increasing - and because the language is future-proofed to a huge degree that many other languages are not (like full UTF and localization support baked into every corner of every library) it will probably be around quite a lot longer than you are thinking. Ruby and other languages like it are fun for smaller projects but simply do not have the depth and richness in libraries that you need if you are building something to take on a huge load, or be a truly world-wide application.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It matters because you don't have to toss Java out if you want to move to a free platform. This is a reduction of friction that's good for everyone. The choice of one or the other no longer has to be made. The "write once run anywhere" language will finally be what it said it was.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The company I used to work for was hit badly by Microsoft dumping VB (VB.NET is not VB, and don't mention the upgrade wizard) and I'm sure it's only one of many. We were hoping for an improved version of VB6 but Microsoft decided to wreck the huge investment we had made in VB code. We had spent years and lots of money writing VB code for our apps because it was easy and convenient with lots of business components available which were simple to plug in. The company just didn't have the resources to rewrite everything in another language and it was a pretty big disaster really. I just couldn't believe that with so many millions of lines of code and so much investment in VB6 from industry that Microsoft would just dump it, but I was wrong.
.NET were nice of course, but after Microsoft dumping VB6 I was quite worried they would pull some similar devastating stunt in the future. Unfortunately my advice fell on deaf ears and the gravitational pull of Microsoft products was just too great. It's a shame because a lot of the customers are now moving over to Linux, Java and various Open Source technologies as a matter of company policy.
The bosses asked me my opinion on what we should do next. We didn't really have a solution to the enormous cost of rewriting everything, but we needed to decide on a new language to adopt. After being so horribly stung by Microsoft on VB I suggested that Java would be a safer direction to go in. C# and
After the VB saga, I am very dubious of using any language which is controlled by a company (particularly when it's Microsoft). Clearly Sun still has a lot of control, but now with Java being Open source, it won't matter so much if Sun dumps Java. We'll have the code after all.
P.S. Trying to upgrade component by component using interop was hell and not really a viable option.
No, seriously, you're wrong. Just because you don't see that Java is being used for a web site's back end doesn't mean you haven't been using it. Personally, I like Eclipse, but then I'm a programmer. I used to use Azureus, but since I'm mostly on a Mac, I started using Bits on Wheels. Not a crack against Azureus from a functional or usability standpoint, I just preferred the "wheel" in BoW. Totally arbitrary eye candy.
The problem with Applets was that AWT was a GUI framework built on top of a web browser, which is already a (wait for it...) GUI framework. The only reason Flash succeeded was because web browsers didn't have vector graphic support ten years ago.
As for Sun, they have given far more to the open source community than most give them credit for. NFS anyone? There are more examples, but just for a moment wrap your head around the concept of what if Sun never released the specs to NFS. What would the BSDs and Linux use to map file shares? CIFS/SMB aka Samba?
So let's take a look at Win32 MFC. That was written in C/C++. So did that framework suck so much? Answer: good code can come from any language where the developer is sufficiently skilled. Bad code can come from any language despite any intrinsic qualities in that language.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Ignoring the parent troll for a moment, can someone please show an example of where multiple implementation inheritance is superior (not just equivalent) to multiple interfaces and the composition design pattern?
I've really tried to find a case, but ultimately fail. I even tend to agree with Gosling that abstract classes were a bad idea. On the other hand, I can name innumerable cases where MI causes more problems than it solves.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
That was a joke. ;-)
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
In Java, you can do so at compile/design (most of the time, that's when you should be doing it). JavaScript's great for small projects, but if you have multiple people working on a codebase, swapping things out at runtime tends to get messy very quickly.
That is, unless each of your team members clearly and comprehensively documents everything they're doing. Then again, a coder that writes good documentation is more rare than a Windows developer who wishes they had fork().
Quick and dirty coding techniques work for quick and dirty projects, not much else.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Can I get an amen?
It doesn't matter how super-zappo your favorite language is if it doesn't put food on the table. Your likes and dislikes don't figure into it when it comes to a job. See Maslow's hierarchy of needs for further clarification.
Go to Careerbuilder and look up Java jobs. And while you're there look up .NET (which is pretty much Microsoft's Java). The jobs run 60/40 in favor of .NET. But there's dozens of them. High paying, too.
I'm currently studying for my Java certification. Why? Because I love Java?
Nope. Because it's good to have something to fall back on. I'll get a .NET cert too, as icky as that sounds. I have a family and I have to think of them first.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Of COURSE it matters. It matters a whole lot. The thing works out of the box and has been doing so for years. Security issues in JVM's are well ironed out.
I do not like the language that much, but the fact is that you can build once, run anywhare and you can do it in GPL now.
I think this is one more nail in microsoft's coffin: they will NEVER dominate the future. There will not be a dominant figure like microsoft was.
This is a brave new day.
NO SIG
Need we say more than the following linl. Static languages have always ruled for a reason. It obviously won't be changing. What might change is if a new static language comes along that is truly offering something new. There is no such language now.
http://www.ddj.com/development-tools/207401593
More like 1999. The Hotspot VM was introduced in 2000, and I consider that the real turning point for speed in the VM.
If you mean Swing, the date's closer to 2004 or even more recent than that with regard to real graphics acceleration.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
please move along.
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
LISP is cool because it uses parentheses; therefore, if a language uses parentheses, it is cool.
I agree that make is atrocious, but that has no bearing on any other technology just because it shares a single idiom.
Correlation does not equal causation.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Earlier today I visited some website which had a cool applet. I'm on a 64-bit system, and Firefox 3 complained about not having the plug-in. Hmm, I vaguely remember installing it long long ago. I had to fire up Konqueror, which worked. Don't ask me why.
Now I could probably fix the problem with installing hte right package or doing 5-10 clicks in the right place, but I didn't have the time to bother.
The point of an open Java is that with an open implementation with open plug-ins, I wouldn't have to do anything at all. It would be already integrated and distributed to me as I install my OS.
One step further, web admins would know that it's integrated and working out of the box, so they wouldn't have to worry about it not being there. Ever. Such confidence in a technology (or lack thereof) can make it or break it in large numbers. This is why Flash is successful - because everyone knows you have it. (That is not strictly true, as it doesn't work in my Konqueror but does work in Firefox 3. Go figure.)
Use the language that best solves the problem at hand...and never trust anyone who only uses one programming language :-)
except for Python, since it does it all better.
But seriously, even C# is a better Java then itself. Java really pushed the whole language concept forwards, but i wouldnt consider it a modern language. But people have used Perl, PHP, etc. for all these years even though those are stupid languages as well.
In the end, everyone has to use the language they deserve. Those who don't know any better could choose worse than Java ...
If it weren't for Java I wouldn't have NeoOffice for my Mac. ;-)
ConsultingFair.com
Seriously, when the editor of a site that bears advertising gratuitously trolls the readership (as opposed to raising legitimate alternate views, playing devil's advocate, suggesting topics for discussion) it does look like they're trying to generate more ad revenue through bad journalism. The editors aren't under any obligation to not submit trollish arcticles. The readers aren't under any obligation not to block ads when browsing those threads. Just a thought...
As for Sun, they have given far more to the open source community than most give them credit for. NFS anyone?
Sun didn't "give" NFS to the open source community. Rather, open source operating systems had to start re-implementing it from scratch. Sun only open sourced it after it stopped mattering. That's adding insult to injury, and it's a recurring pattern with Sun.
There are more examples, but just for a moment wrap your head around the concept of what if Sun never released the specs to NFS.
We'd be a whole lot better off: NFSv3 and earlier is a piece of shit: it's insecure, unsafe, unreliable, hard to manage, and inefficient.
And Sun certainly didn't release NFS in order for open source operating sytems to clone it.
What would the BSDs and Linux use to map file shares? CIFS/SMB aka Samba?
Even that would have been better. SMB actually works pretty well with Linux these days. Or we might be using AFS or any of a number of other network file systems. Actually, most likely, we'd probably be using WebDAV.
And if code bases never changed, I might agree with you. However, what happens when a superclass is changed, e.g., a new method is added? Much of the time, nothing. But what happens with MI when one superclass adds a method that already exists by name in another superclass? You end up in exactly the same solution as with SI; you use composition to arbitrate the ambiguity.
When interfaces collide, there is no issue. If a method is added to a superclass in single-inheritance, it rarely affects the subclass unless that subclass is too tightly coupled with private variables (the implementation) of the superclass; you'd be hosed with any change in the superclass.
MI may result in slightly fewer lines of code, but it makes for code that's harder to understand and more brittle in the long run. In short, it's little more than syntactic sugar with no programmatic benefits but several drawbacks with regard to complexity.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Furthermore, I don't care what anyone says about .NET/Mono. It is a closed Microsoft technology that Mono will perpetually play catch-up to. It cannot replace what (Open) Java has to offer. .NET is only a small part of Mono. Mono is no more a "closed Microsoft technology" because you can optionally install .NET compatible libraries on it, than Linux is a "closed Microsoft technology" because you can optionally install Wine on it.
That first complaint is nonsense, as it can equally be applied to ANY language. The same thing could be said of .Net or C or C++. No single programmer will ever learn to do everything in one language. Still, experts can learn how to do nearly everything in one language.
That second complaint is trickier: "Second, and most important, even as Java has stretched outward to embrace more concepts and technologies â" adding APIs and language features as it goes â" newer, more lightweight tools have appeared that do most of what Java aims to do. And they often do it better"
That is basically true.
burrocrisy
and that would be what? Ruling by jackasses? Never has a slashdot misspelling been more apropos
You have limits in any language whether they be the inclusion of a semicolon at the end of a statement, the enclosure of a conditional in parentheses, or curly braces to denote scope.
To say that those constructs built into languages are acceptable but enforced indentation is not is an arbitrary distinction. It has nothing to do with its worth or lack thereof. You have decided what you prefer and are fitting an argument to that conclusion. Philosophy does not enter into it.
A computer doesn't care whether your programming language enforces indentation. All the computer needs is an ordered sequence of bits and bytes in just the right combination to return a desired output. Computer languages were meant to be a human-readable alternative -- their sole reason for existence. If you don't think that the indentation makes the code readable, that's a valid argument though I would disagree with it.
However, I don't believe you have a "philosophical problem" with indentation on the basis of enforcement. Enforcement has nothing to do with readability, and readability is all that really matters with a language. Anything else is personal preference, which is perfectly valid, just don't frame it in the guise of a more noble cause.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
This is also a very good example (IMO) for solid desktop applications in Java, what about an online UML editor ? If your browser supports Java natively just click the link and fire the ArgoUML application. Presto; an instant UML editor which can also be solely used online.
...
bloated in memory usage and CPU usage in comparison to cleaner C# or C++ ...
While I won't entirely deny that charge, I will say that Java's memory requirements have diminished (slightly) with improvements to the JVM. But more important than that, is the fact that most reasonably new desktop systems have 2-3 gigabytes worth of memory, and several hundred gigabytes of hd space. The extra memory overhead simply isn't a very convincing reason to avoid Java any longer.I was going to have a amazingly funny and clever sig, but I forgot, and failed miserably.
Nonsense. If you're wrapping an if() {...} around a region of code, you still have to know where to insert the curly brackets. Once you have the region marked out, most editors can indent that region for you. Even if the language is Python. For example, in Emacs, you select the region, then type C-x C-i to indent it. Simple.
I quite enjoy Java and find it to be a great language. My only complaint is that they fucked up java for web sites / apps.
Why does java have to be some complicated, delicate and have 6 millions different ways to do something where as you can get on with developing something in PHP quite easily? Sure to make something great you need to know the html to go with PHP and javascript but you need to know those with java plus decide if you you are using struts, spring, seam, groovy, JSF, etc and, while knowing one may make it easier to transition into another job using something similar, it's still a pain compared to moving between PHP based development jobs.
It is true that if you wanted to know everything about Java it would be impossible. You can't know it all and be excellent at it but there should only be three clear sides to it. The desktop app side, mobile and web.
You see... Sun is a Fine company but personally I'll never use Java... it's horrific, huge and (and that's my point) targeted at managing replaceable units (read: inept coders). Allow me to explain: Java is the tool I'd want if I had to manage and oversee hundreds of expendable mediocre developers. I'm the CIO of my company (small 20ish people) and I'll always stick with C++, eventually scripting languages the like of Python. C++ is far more expressive *if* you master it. And there's niceness coming along with C++0X, the new standard. Java? No thanks. But thanks for ZFS!
My original(parent) post is currently marked Troll. My bad, I forgot the obligitory "This is not a troll, but" line. lol
Seriously though, I have a little time in perl, and I rarely script, so I am lazy and tend to want to default to it.
Does that experience mean I should default to perl though? My perl is readable (ya sure, everyone thinks that), but when I have to read some of the stuff other write... Perl gives the person the power to write unreadable(bad?)code.
Anyway, If I were to start over, OR if I had to do a lot of scripting... I would endevor to master Python instead.
If the fact that I am not proud that I still write the odd line in Perl makes me a troll, then I hope we have a lot more trolls in this world!
Is there an article on /. that questions FLOSS?
Here be signatures
twitter, would it be too much to ask to just stop doing things like these?. Why can't you stop trolling Slashdot with one hand and pretending to be a member of the community with the other?
``if Java really were released today, brand-new, would it be a tool you'd choose?''
No, I wouldn't. Back in the day, I did. I didn't know much yet and Java was pitched as being the great new thing that did things the best way. I bought into the religion.
Then I got disappointed. My programs were slow. The APIs didn't work the way I had expected them to work. It was needlessly verbose (Foo foo = new Foo()), needlessly ugly (BufferedReader reader = new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(new FileInputStream("something")))), and had sillyness like "Iterator iter = people.iterator(); while(iter.hasNext()) { Person person = (Person) iter.next(); ... }".
Java has since improved. Since 1.5, it has been a lot better. But I have learned a lot more, as well.
I now know that there are *lots* of programming languages. I now know that I like some of these languages much more than I do Java. I also know that for every shortcoming I percieve in Java, there is another language that does it better. And even things that Java does well are often matched or exceeded by other languages.
I also know that, for all Java was touted as the Great New Thing, none of the things it "introduced" were actually new. It had all been done before. Of course, what was new was Java itself; the whole package. It lacked many things that other languages already had, and since then, a lot of time and effort has gone in designing and building things for Java that already existed for other languages and platforms.
I feel bitter about Java. Not because I think it is absolutely terrible, because I think it is a fairly decent language with a lot of good ideas in it. But I feel bitter, because I feel it has wasted a lot of time and led us away from what could have been. We already had great languages, great platforms, and great tools. The hype around Java eclipsed (no pun intended) all that and got amazing numbers of talented people to write tools for Java, add great ideas from other languages to Java, etc. etc. I still don't think it's there yet, and that has everything to do with the shortcomings of Java as a language and misguided decisions by designers - in general, most things in the Javaverse are terribly over-engineered. So, instead of working with the great things we had and making them even better, we've spent our effort getting something mediocre on par with that. I feel Java has been a huge setback in that respect.
On the other hand, Java _was_ actually an improvement for many. In that sense, I feel it, and its evangelists, deserve credit for _improving_ the world.
It's really a mixed bag. But on the whole, I resent it. I'll work with it on ocacssion, but I won't choose it. Not if I have the freedom to choose something better suited to the task.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I remember when Java was a hot new language. Even then people had epithets for it. Microsoft and the open source community have always been the biggest Java haters. I think both groups hate it because Java wasn't theirs.
It's basically a marketing ploy. Who acually looks at the Java VMs source? ... Right. ... To a certain extent, no body cares about licences, unless the experience lock-in or Win XP / Windows Fister getting pissy over some hardware changes. In a sense, MS has been actually drawing attention to its own EULAs since Win2K. With mostly negative effects.
It takes open sourcing to reach opinion leaders. Java was taken for granted even before it went GPL, but now everybody know it will never go away. If Sun goes south, then IBM or some other company will pick it up without missing a step. It has fully moved from a product to being a technology.
But I don't think open sourcing Java or not makes that much of a difference for Sun business wise. That's why I think it was best for them to GPL it. They have little to lose and quite some attention to gain. And attention they did gain. Sun is on the radar of a whole new generation of admins once again. They'd be my first pick if industry strength servers where needed.
The industries opinion leaders all almost all Linux and OSS advocates. I actually don't know a single MS-oriented guy who has the last word in technology decisions. I *do* know MS people who admit that they don't know as much about computing as *nix people. The bottom line is: If nowadays you want to be taken for granted by developers that matter, you have to play ball with Open Source. Especially in technologies people are expected to develop against. Adobe, Sun, IBM, they all know this. MS is about to learn it. The hard way.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I suspect (or at least hope!) that Taco was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with this entire post. A Perl guy criticizing another language's learning curve?!?
Still, addressing the point at face-value, I fail to see how the large array of Java libraries and frameworks is a liability rather than an asset. Sure, nobody can learn ALL of them... but neither is anyone expected to. You learn the libraries and/or frameworks that are relevant to the task you are trying to accomplish. How is this worse (or even different) from the suggested alternative... learning entirely separately languages for each task? For all Java's issues with version compatibility, etc, at least learning that language gives you a common platform from which you can tackle almost any problem. You can pick and choose the libraries and frameworks that are best suited to the task at hand, and at least have the possible option of later integrating it with other Java code without having to go through pipes or services or some other loose-coupling technique.
For the problems that Java does have, pretty much the only reason why they aren't shared by "newer, more lightweight" technologies is because those haven't been around long enough yet for version compatibility to even be a concern. For any given example of technology, check back with me in 5-10 years and let me know how its maturity lifecycle has compared with Java's.
Parent's link is GP's post :P
Since the OSS community now has a JRE which is certified for Java 6, a closed source Java is not worth nearly as much as it was. So now Sun isn't really losing much to make the real Java open sourced and they get to look like good guys in the OSS comunity.
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
It wont make it better for my Java exam tommorow :)
> The only reason Flash succeeded was because web browsers didn't have vector graphic support ten years ago.
Try drag and dropping an SVG file onto a Firefox 3 window. Browsers STILL don't support vector graphics.
(And, for some totally strange reason, you can't drag and drop an SVG onto Safari under Windows either; you can drop it onto the address bar, but not onto the window itself).
I'm still new to programming, and I'd like to ask a question that I so far haven't been able to figure out:
What exactly sets languages apart, insofar as one being more powerful than the other? Java > VB.net, C++ > Java, etc, etc.
...and languages like SML or Haskell have this rigour within their type systems. Supposedly Scala (which uses the JVM) also has a rigorous type system but there's a language complexity price. Folks programming in Java can get around those problems by using "Good Engineering Principles" (see the "Static Typing's Paper Tigers" section) and if the Java folks don't need to go the whole hog on their type system...
and it's the same reason that's behind Java's failings.
Java assumes that the programmer is a complete idiot, and the language knows better than you do. This has been a wildly successful technique, as it has allowed companies to hire massive armies of hacks with no real understanding of programming, and together they can produce apps that nearly work.
And on the opposite side of the same coin, those programmers who actually are smarter than a compiler resent having to write reams of useless syntax just to tell Java "yes, I really meant to do what I said there."
is that it remains the language of choice for real complex scientific and engineering challenges, especially time-critical/real-time systems, which the newer languages typically don't address well.
I've been poking at the D programming language and started to wonder why it's not more widespread inside of this niche:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_(programming_language)
Anyone know why?
Tweet, tweet.
The open-source crowd always plans the same cynical game: "I will boycott your product publicly until you open-source it. How *dare* you keep it closed-source?! ... what? You open-sourced it? ... hmm, well it doesn't really matter anymore, I'd rather use something else".
Do me a favor, stop telling the world that the only reason people don't use X is because it's not open-source. Open-source is only a tiny fragment of what matters. This melodramatic fan-boy attitude ensure no one takes open-source advocates seriously.
No. JavaScript is a scripting language, whereas Java is a full-fledged programming language.
I've never particularly understood this distinction. What's the line? Is it whether or not you can allocate raw memory? Is it whether or not you're writing primary constructs in the language instead of operating on API/library exposed constructs?
It can't be whether it's interpreted or not, because that has nothing to do with a language -- that's an implementation issue. Unless it's like Perl or D, where the language is defined by what's accepted by a given interpreter or compiler....
Tweet, tweet.
The GIL does get released at certain strategic points: when Python does I/O (or rather, waits for its completion) and when calling an extension module that releases it. In both cases multiple threads *can* run concurrently. It's mainly when the interpreter is executing byte code that only one thread at a time is active.
To paraphrase: Does Java matter?
It would actually have some new features. Instead, Slashcode is just a clusterfuck to maintain and enhance. PERL has its uses, but you don't see many people writing content management systems in PERL anymore. Hmmm, I wonder why...
Yes, that was my point.
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Well, the elegance and simplicity of comprehensions comes to mind. Frequently one line of Python can be used instead of the equivalent half-page of Java...
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Under ordinary circumstances vertical monopolies tend to cause legal difficulties(Microsoft doesn't come close to having one, and they're horizontal monopoly is pretty much restricted to desktop computing and they've been sued a few times already). However if you open source your software then you can't possible be a monopoly because all your stuff is ideologically free.
There's also the added bonus that free as in beer software can be used by smaller businesses who will then already be using your infrastructure when they become big companies who pay for support.
Normally this would all just be a legal ploy, but Sun is also trying to play a game of catch up because despite being the authors of a lot of the standards that allow the other guys to play the game, their implementations have been pretty awful, so Sun needs to improve their software dramatically in a short period of time and they think that having open source developers will help them do that.
Sun probably thinks that open sourcing java might help them get the developers they need.
I'm a PhD student in AI/statistical learning. In my field, we use Matlab a lot, and anyone who has used Matlab knows that it's ugly and slow, but the fact that you can step through the code and create a histogram of the data you're working with more than makes up for it.
BUT it turns out that Matlab and Java are totally interoperable. You can write Java code in the Matlab interpreter and it will Just Work. Check out the following code, written on the Matlab command line:
>> ll = java.util.LinkedList();
>> ll.add('hello');
>> ll.add('world');
>> ll
ll =
[hello, world]
So, this is one of the reasons I love Java.
Open source Java does matter. We cannot rely on Sun to supply the JVM for all systems and I for one am sick of IBMs JDK, GNU's Java and Sun's Java each doing their own thing and fscking up the concept of portability.
That's a shame that there is such comment for this message. You really like flame wars, don't you, Rob?
Best,
H
For all the hype of Ruby on Rails, etc., the cold reality is that you would have to be a pretty foolhardy architect to recommend it for anything mission critical. Java might not be sexy but it does exactly what it says on the tin.
Its great news that its been open source, especially for Linux. But what it means in practice remains to be seen. I expect what it will mean is random bug fix submissions but little else but in practice Java is going to get governed the way it's always been governed. People will branch Java of course but just like Firefox, I doubt it means they can still call it Java.
Get it right, Sun own MySQL.
Java, Apache, MySQL, Solaris.
See opinion, you can argue the merits of this language or that language, but it still comes down to personal preference, opinion, or what your employer requires.
So to alot of people Java Matters.
I am one of those people, unfortunately ;-) ./peaCe
Awesome!
Real programmers fork.
Java is the new Cobol.
An interview with Erich Gamma.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Firefox requires a MIME type, which is not available when loading from the filesystem. Yes, it's lame, but that's the state of things.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
I suspect most of the time the problem is the developers themselves. Good developers will write good code in most any decent language; bad developers will write bad code in any language.
The problem is likely the team (including clueless management) who did the project, they would have likely created a mess in anything else too.
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
The whole indentation thing is perfectly inline with the goals of Python. Programs are typically read far more than they are written. They are read every time you try to understand them, extend them or debug them.
One of Pythons goals was to be extremely useful, which means it is desirable to encourage easy-to-read even at the expense of easy-to-write. Programmers have a much easier time reading properly indented code. In Python all code is properly indented, all the time. If the indentation is wrong the code is wrong, so it is still properly indented.
Now these lofty ideals easily extend into elitism. If you can't write code that is properly indented then you can't write Python and it might be for the best if you don't even try. Some would argue that if you write code that is unclear even at the indentation level then what chance has the logic got, probably best if you don't write code at all. I would say that is going a bit far but then I'm not currently working with anyone who really should be banned from coding.
Keeping track of indentation isn't too hard so I don't mind. I use vim, and you said you did too. Yes, you can't autoindent, but manual indenting is as easy as hitting "V", selecting the relevant lines, and then hitting "<" or ">".
That said I do like autoindenting, which is one of the reasons why my language of choice is a lisp dialect. But even so I still keep a keen eye on indenting, the process is just reversed. When editing lisp I make my changes and run autoindent, looking for any movement that I wasn't expecting - which would indicate I had got my parentheses wrong.
When reading code I still prefer Python because I know I don't have to reindent it first.
By the way, your example of adding an if statement is a bit bogus. In a C like language you have to go to the start, add the statement, and the brace, go to the end, add the brace, then hit autoindent. There are no more steps in Python, you just start highlighting at the start, move to the end and hit manual indent. It is exactly no harder.
PHP has already come and gone with a major version incompatible change with the whole globals fiasco. Hindsight 20/20 and all that, it was still a major pain in the ass, having to have two versions of PHP installed to run my apps, simply because a language "allowed" developers to do poor, security-sacrificing things....
regards.