If we get into protectionism, then the West is going to get a wave of protectionism in response, and that is going to turn back the clock 20 years," Premji told The Sunday Times.
If this is true, let's get going and turn the damn clock back already. I'd love to have another crack at the wages good American CS/IT jobs were paying back then!:)
On a serious note, many in this discussion have pointed out that the US economy became strongest during our own periods of protectionism. It probably wouldn't be considered politically correct by many, but it makes me think that if it worked before, why not give it another shot?
I would not be worried for a second if every other nation wanted to do the same. After all, the purpose of a nation is to look out for your own citizens.
The answer "newspapers die because their business models no longer work" is fine with me. This is an indicator of progress. Meaning that society has found a more effective way to communicate.
The only real solution is for newspapers to continue to go out of business. When this reaches the point where there are only a handful left, they might be able to start a model of restricting access to paid customers. They're still competing against bloggers and crowdsourcing, of course, but the actual professional (which is to say, paid) reporter model of newsgathering may have advantages in the quality of news, sufficient that it may be worth it for some customers to pay for.
I failed to praise you for the above quote. It is right on the money.
If a mans work week is valued at $900 today, that is equal to one ounce of gold.
It was the same 5000 years ago, one weeks worth would generate that income too.
Human Labor ALWAYS changes. Everything depends on the scarcity of work compared to the scarcity of workers. It's about competition, and desperation, in order to survive in ever changing conditions. A weeks worth of work can vary hugely as to its monetary value.
If work is plentiful, and workers are scarce, then you may have to pay much more than that $900 for a weeks worth of work.
If work is scarce, and workers are plentiful, then there will be someone willing to do the work for a lot less than the $900 rate.
I can work my heart out for a week. However, I will not generate a cent if I am working at something there is not a demand for. On the other hand, if I am the only person available to do what you need done, I can generate as much money as I can get you to agree to.
What is that ounce of gold worth this week? Next week? The week after? No idea, really.
Lets compare company A and Company B Company A will never use foreign workers. Company B will.
Lets say they both start out equal. With 2 employees.
Year 1 Company A has 2 native employees averaging 50k per employee Company B has 1 native and 1 foreign employee averaging 30k per employee
Each employee Generates 75k a year of revenue. Giving company A 50k in profit. and B 95k in profit.
Year 2 Company A only has money to hire 1 employee as it is all they can afford. Company B now hires 1 American and and 1 foreign.
Company A get 75k in profit, B now get 180k in profit.
Year 3 Company A hires 1 American Worker. Company B hires 3 American Workers and 3 Foreign.
So A has 4 American Workers. And is a company size of 4 employees. And B has 5 American Workers. And is a company size of 10 employees.
Are you starting to see the trend now?
I think that your post, while well-intentioned, is not what happens in reality. I think it breaks down somewhere between year 2, and year 4.
Here's the reality from my viewpoint:
Year 2: A hires 1 native worker. B hires 1 foreign worker and 1 native worker to Manage these workers.
So, at the end of year 2, Company A is a small company that supports its local economy, and Company B is a small company that supports the local economy, but not quite as much as company A.
Year 3: A Hires 1 native worker. B The native Manager has figured out that the native workers are expensive, and his/her paycheck has the potential to be much larger if the native workers are let go, and replaced with foreign workers. Business owners/Corp Board of Directors look favorably on the cost savings.
So, at the end of year 3, Company A is a small company that supports its local economy, where Company B is a small company that doesn't support the local economy much at all.
Year 4: A Hires 1 native worker. B Business owners/Corp Board of Directors, move the operation offshore to a country that has a much lower (or no) tax rate. A result of this is that the remaining native workers are likely unemployed, and trying to hire on with company A.
So, at the end of year 4, Company A is a small company that supports its local economy, where Company B is a small company that doesn't support the local economy at all.
Lather, Rinse, Repeat... It eventually leads to where the economy is today.
One way I can see to break the cycle is to find some arbitrary way to make compensation equal throughout the world. (I'm talking about equalizing the value of a task, not making individual salaries equal. People would still be compensated based on their effort level/skill level.)
Another way to break the cycle is by legislating protectionism. (Buy native whenever possible.)
Alternatively, we can erase all the borders between States/Countries, and become one single government. This would level the playing field for good. However, I'm sure this would never become reality. (Greed, and Power, will do their best to prevent this.)
The last way I can think of to stop the cycle is to convince others that off-shoring labor is just not a good idea. It's a tough sell, especially considering the human propensity for greed/profit. But, I think this is the only way that can work.
I am an American, but, I tried to use the word Native in place of American. I honestly believe this pendulum will swing the other way, and some day, we Americans will find ourselves in a position where it is cheaper to send labor tasks here, rather than perform the labor in India, or China, or wherever the current labor costs are cheapest. No one is immune to the economics at work.
If people really want to change the situation they are in, they will find a way to communicate their ideas.
The message is so much more important than the medium used to pass the message.
The more "security features" you add to a device, the more difficult it is for the message to get out. You have to have a device to send your encoded messages, and whomever you are trying to communicate with needs a device to receive that message.
I would think that the less complicated you can make the delivery of the message, the better the chance of your message making it to the people that you want to hear it.
If people are too stupid to understand, well, not much you can do for them.
You know. My knee-jerk reaction is to agree with you.
However, it is a complicated world we all live in, and there is no realistic way that everybody can know about all the different ways things affect them. It is simply not possible to know everything about everything.
If you were to give up sleeping, working, and eating, you still would not have enough hours in the day to educate yourself in all manners of practices that attempt to lock you in to a product, or service.
In my mind, one of the main purposes for government is to help insulate their people from this type of behavior (bullying, IMO).
If you accept the premise above, would you agree that our government is on track for EPIC FAILURE in this regard?
Having spent the majority of my life in Washington county, Oregon, I can tell you that this is most likely a problem with state and local government, not Intel being flaky. My experience tells me that local bureaucrats are more than likely the cause, making Oregon a very expensive, problematic, and flat-out unattractive place to build facilities, compared to what it once was.
That being said, it may be that the knuckle-headed local government may be pulling their head out of their tail and actually doing something right, and the new Arizona plant was just on the road map before the Washington County deal was struck. Perhaps Intel still has plans to build more facilities in Oregon.
Yes, Oregon has much more water than Arizona, both running and airborne(humidity). However, Intel must not see this as a problem, otherwise they wouldn't be building in AZ.
As I understand it, "current-generation" is 90nm. The "next-generation" is about to go into production at 70nm, which Intel, and other companies, have been gearing up for for the last couple of years.
This plant is gearing up for the 45nm "next-next-generation" which is still heavily in development, and will not be ready for about 2 more years.
They are building this facility so they can hit the ground running when the 45nm machinery is ready.
It takes a couple of years to build a facility of this size, and you really have to plan ahead to be ready to manufacture when the technology is ready. It is a very competitive business, and they need to start planning and building for the "next-next-generation" now.
I'm sorry, but this whole pay-per-click model has got to be the dumbest idea anyone has ever come up with.
How can this accurately measure any sort of statistic?
The fact that anyone relies on this method of income seems ludicrous, if not, INSANE.
Even more galling to me, is that they are now spending our tax dollars in court pointing fingers at other companies, trying to place blame for their own flawed busines model.
Yes, the Internet is a big marketplace. The sheer number of web-surfers darn near guarantees that if you can get people to a web-site, some will buy your product (unless it is completely worthless). But, come on! Pay-per-click makes almost no logical sense to me. Click-Fraud? Give me a break...
This whole model just makes me want to write a spider routine that loads pages in the background and click on every ad link it encounters, just to emphasize to these dorks, by skewing their data, that their pay-per-click model is really dumb.
Why is SMS a fad? To me it is just one more form of communication which I find very handy at times. Especially when I am in a loud environment. I can't think of any other form of communication that would do as well, except smoke signals, which wouldn't do in a datacenter.
It is a simple means of relaying a message, and I think adding an option to one's phone, that allows them to generate their text message using Morse before it is sent, seems like quite a nice feature.
Who says you need to know Morse Code, if you don't want to? After all, I doubt anyone will put a signature on the message that says, "This SMS generated using Morse", so it would be completely transparent to the receiver.
Let's say an important businessman, who happens to enjoy HAM as a hobby, and knows Morse Code well, has a real-world use for SMS. Since he is fluent in Morse Code, he chooses to enter his message that way. What is wrong with that?
Nlite looks pretty cool. I would have used it if I had found it 2 months ago. Instead, I spent 3+/- days learning how to do it all the hard way, and I burned a lot of coasters in the process.
When I finally got done, I had a pretty, slick up-to-date*, restoration cd that I could insert in the box, walk away for about an hour, come back and login. My normal apps (including virus scanner) install automatically, too. And yes, the very first thing the box does when it connects to the internet is go get the latest virus defs.
* Obsolete the following Tuesday.
I am currently working on one that XP will be as stripped down as I can make it, and will use F/OSS applications only. I am continually amazed at the darn decent F/OSS software that is available, (Thank you sourceforge folks!).
I admit it, I make my living supporting Windows. However, I have done several Gentoo systems, and did go through the pain of LFS 5 (twice*). I want to make the switch to Linux, but I haven't found the setup/apps/configs I would like, so I keep switching distro's, never spending enough time to get used to them. (Typical Windows User, Don't know what I want...)
* FYI - Shell scripting LFS is a bugger! Compiled and Installed by hand the first time, then wanted to try for a Gentoo-style install.
exactly what I want! A place to gather, and post, useful (sometimes fun) information.
At my first exposure to the Internet, it was nearly perfect. Consisting of little more than a collection of websites that people found interesting, informative, and/or fun. It was based on people/institutions wanting to share knowledge and experience, not entities looking to extract my cash, or make a quick buck.
Those sites that did have something to sell, actually had product that would sell based on its merit, not because it was hosted on a "cool" site with free games, discounts, etc. Why do I care if whatever goofy-dumb-site, paid for by dubbaklik.dumb, goes away? I sincerely doubt that the Internet(world) will be a worse place for it.
If I am searching for a product, or service, I want to let the search engine find it. When/if I find what I am looking for, I then make my purchase. If I don't find it, then maybe I don't really need it. (Hint here: products.google.com, services.google.com???)
I don't want to look at advertising, no matter how it manifests itself (e.g. Pop-Ups, Banners, etc.), even if it is something I might want. I make it a point to NOT purchase a product or service, if they try to advertise like this. If dubbakilk.dumb can't make their business model work because of my choice not to view ads like theirs, then they need to change their business model, right?
This guy is simply whining because his gravy train is going away, and he might actually have to innovate and add real value for the consumer, to make his business model work.
I feel that if a product, or service, is worth purchasing, the site of the seller will be able to make the sale, without getting in my face.
Don't threaten me with crap websites going away, because you'll find that's exactly what I want!
Slashdot Mirror
With regard to your sig...
Does it count as trading liberty for safety when it's the gov't taking over private corporations to save the economy?
No. It doesn't count. However, that's because it makes me think we may have already traded our liberties away.
So what happens if "He" becomes a "She"?
If we get into protectionism, then the West is going to get a wave of protectionism in response, and that is going to turn back the clock 20 years," Premji told The Sunday Times.
If this is true, let's get going and turn the damn clock back already. I'd love to have another crack at the wages good American CS/IT jobs were paying back then! :)
On a serious note, many in this discussion have pointed out that the US economy became strongest during our own periods of protectionism. It probably wouldn't be considered politically correct by many, but it makes me think that if it worked before, why not give it another shot?
I would not be worried for a second if every other nation wanted to do the same. After all, the purpose of a nation is to look out for your own citizens.
The answer "newspapers die because their business models no longer work" is fine with me. This is an indicator of progress. Meaning that society has found a more effective way to communicate.
The only real solution is for newspapers to continue to go out of business. When this reaches the point where there are only a handful left, they might be able to start a model of restricting access to paid customers. They're still competing against bloggers and crowdsourcing, of course, but the actual professional (which is to say, paid) reporter model of newsgathering may have advantages in the quality of news, sufficient that it may be worth it for some customers to pay for.
I failed to praise you for the above quote. It is right on the money.
No, I mean BETTER. In other words, you can change your business dynamically as the environment you are doing business in changes.
Cheaper? It depends on what you mean by cheaper.
If your definition of cheaper is spending less while ignoring quality, your business will eventually fail.
If your definition of cheaper is spending less while still making your business work, then yes. Absolutely.
If a mans work week is valued at $900 today, that is equal to one ounce of gold.
It was the same 5000 years ago, one weeks worth would generate that income too.
Human Labor ALWAYS changes. Everything depends on the scarcity of work compared to the scarcity of workers. It's about competition, and desperation, in order to survive in ever changing conditions. A weeks worth of work can vary hugely as to its monetary value.
If work is plentiful, and workers are scarce, then you may have to pay much more than that $900 for a weeks worth of work.
If work is scarce, and workers are plentiful, then there will be someone willing to do the work for a lot less than the $900 rate.
I can work my heart out for a week. However, I will not generate a cent if I am working at something there is not a demand for. On the other hand, if I am the only person available to do what you need done, I can generate as much money as I can get you to agree to.
What is that ounce of gold worth this week? Next week? The week after? No idea, really.
Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!
This IS the big picture that most are too blind to see!
Targon for KING of the world!
Lets compare company A and Company B
Company A will never use foreign workers.
Company B will.
Lets say they both start out equal. With 2 employees.
Year 1
Company A has 2 native employees averaging 50k per employee
Company B has 1 native and 1 foreign employee averaging 30k per employee
Each employee Generates 75k a year of revenue.
Giving company A 50k in profit. and B 95k in profit.
Year 2
Company A only has money to hire 1 employee as it is all they can afford.
Company B now hires 1 American and and 1 foreign.
Company A get 75k in profit, B now get 180k in profit.
Year 3
Company A hires 1 American Worker.
Company B hires 3 American Workers and 3 Foreign.
So A has 4 American Workers. And is a company size of 4 employees.
And B has 5 American Workers. And is a company size of 10 employees.
Are you starting to see the trend now?
I think that your post, while well-intentioned, is not what happens in reality. I think it breaks down somewhere between year 2, and year 4.
Here's the reality from my viewpoint:
Year 2:
A hires 1 native worker.
B hires 1 foreign worker and 1 native worker to Manage these workers.
So, at the end of year 2, Company A is a small company that supports its local economy, and Company B is a small company that supports the local economy, but not quite as much as company A.
Year 3:
A Hires 1 native worker.
B The native Manager has figured out that the native workers are expensive, and his/her paycheck has the potential to be much larger if the native workers are let go, and replaced with foreign workers. Business owners/Corp Board of Directors look favorably on the cost savings.
So, at the end of year 3, Company A is a small company that supports its local economy, where Company B is a small company that doesn't support the local economy much at all.
Year 4:
A Hires 1 native worker.
B Business owners/Corp Board of Directors, move the operation offshore to a country that has a much lower (or no) tax rate. A result of this is that the remaining native workers are likely unemployed, and trying to hire on with company A.
So, at the end of year 4, Company A is a small company that supports its local economy, where Company B is a small company that doesn't support the local economy at all.
Lather, Rinse, Repeat... It eventually leads to where the economy is today.
One way I can see to break the cycle is to find some arbitrary way to make compensation equal throughout the world. (I'm talking about equalizing the value of a task, not making individual salaries equal. People would still be compensated based on their effort level/skill level.)
Another way to break the cycle is by legislating protectionism. (Buy native whenever possible.)
Alternatively, we can erase all the borders between States/Countries, and become one single government. This would level the playing field for good. However, I'm sure this would never become reality. (Greed, and Power, will do their best to prevent this.)
The last way I can think of to stop the cycle is to convince others that off-shoring labor is just not a good idea. It's a tough sell, especially considering the human propensity for greed/profit. But, I think this is the only way that can work.
I am an American, but, I tried to use the word Native in place of American. I honestly believe this pendulum will swing the other way, and some day, we Americans will find ourselves in a position where it is cheaper to send labor tasks here, rather than perform the labor in India, or China, or wherever the current labor costs are cheapest. No one is immune to the economics at work.
You have got to be kidding me."Freedom Handset"?
If people really want to change the situation they are in, they will find a way to communicate their ideas.
The message is so much more important than the medium used to pass the message.
The more "security features" you add to a device, the more difficult it is for the message to get out. You have to have a device to send your encoded messages, and whomever you are trying to communicate with needs a device to receive that message.
I would think that the less complicated you can make the delivery of the message, the better the chance of your message making it to the people that you want to hear it.
The real "Freedom Handset" should be a Bull-Horn.
No, that was A shark, this was THE shark.
There is no problem at all. (Either in the specific issue of newspapers, or in the general free market theory you mention).
I see it as the natural evolution of services. A limited news disseminating tool is replaced by another much less limited one.
All business models will eventually be replaced with a better model.
I'd be happy with a telephone that had big enough buttons that I could actually dial it without having to concentrate too hard on it.
I'd be ecstatic if that phone just made telephone calls, and I was only charged for that.
If people are too stupid to understand, well, not much you can do for them.
You know. My knee-jerk reaction is to agree with you.
However, it is a complicated world we all live in, and there is no realistic way that everybody can know about all the different ways things affect them. It is simply not possible to know everything about everything.
If you were to give up sleeping, working, and eating, you still would not have enough hours in the day to educate yourself in all manners of practices that attempt to lock you in to a product, or service.
In my mind, one of the main purposes for government is to help insulate their people from this type of behavior (bullying, IMO).
If you accept the premise above, would you agree that our government is on track for EPIC FAILURE in this regard?
That being said, it may be that the knuckle-headed local government may be pulling their head out of their tail and actually doing something right, and the new Arizona plant was just on the road map before the Washington County deal was struck. Perhaps Intel still has plans to build more facilities in Oregon.
Yes, Oregon has much more water than Arizona, both running and airborne(humidity). However, Intel must not see this as a problem, otherwise they wouldn't be building in AZ.
This plant is gearing up for the 45nm "next-next-generation" which is still heavily in development, and will not be ready for about 2 more years.
They are building this facility so they can hit the ground running when the 45nm machinery is ready.
It takes a couple of years to build a facility of this size, and you really have to plan ahead to be ready to manufacture when the technology is ready. It is a very competitive business, and they need to start planning and building for the "next-next-generation" now.
There's a reason I answer to one-eyed willy ;^).
(Must've been a lack of coffee.)
I'm sorry, but this whole pay-per-click model has got to be the dumbest idea anyone has ever come up with.
How can this accurately measure any sort of statistic?
The fact that anyone relies on this method of income seems ludicrous, if not, INSANE.
Even more galling to me, is that they are now spending our tax dollars in court pointing fingers at other companies, trying to place blame for their own flawed busines model.
Yes, the Internet is a big marketplace. The sheer number of web-surfers darn near guarantees that if you can get people to a web-site, some will buy your product (unless it is completely worthless). But, come on! Pay-per-click makes almost no logical sense to me. Click-Fraud? Give me a break...
This whole model just makes me want to write a spider routine that loads pages in the background and click on every ad link it encounters, just to emphasize to these dorks, by skewing their data, that their pay-per-click model is really dumb.
It is a simple means of relaying a message, and I think adding an option to one's phone, that allows them to generate their text message using Morse before it is sent, seems like quite a nice feature.
Who says you need to know Morse Code, if you don't want to? After all, I doubt anyone will put a signature on the message that says, "This SMS generated using Morse", so it would be completely transparent to the receiver.
Let's say an important businessman, who happens to enjoy HAM as a hobby, and knows Morse Code well, has a real-world use for SMS. Since he is fluent in Morse Code, he chooses to enter his message that way. What is wrong with that?
So that's why I have so many black lines on my monitor then?
http://www.salvatorefalco.com/archives/000290.html
Nlite looks pretty cool. I would have used it if I had found it 2 months ago. Instead, I spent 3+/- days learning how to do it all the hard way, and I burned a lot of coasters in the process.
When I finally got done, I had a pretty, slick up-to-date*, restoration cd that I could insert in the box, walk away for about an hour, come back and login. My normal apps (including virus scanner) install automatically, too. And yes, the very first thing the box does when it connects to the internet is go get the latest virus defs.
* Obsolete the following Tuesday.
I am currently working on one that XP will be as stripped down as I can make it, and will use F/OSS applications only. I am continually amazed at the darn decent F/OSS software that is available, (Thank you sourceforge folks!).
I admit it, I make my living supporting Windows. However, I have done several Gentoo systems, and did go through the pain of LFS 5 (twice*). I want to make the switch to Linux, but I haven't found the setup/apps/configs I would like, so I keep switching distro's, never spending enough time to get used to them. (Typical Windows User, Don't know what I want...)
* FYI - Shell scripting LFS is a bugger! Compiled and Installed by hand the first time, then wanted to try for a Gentoo-style install.
c:\dos\run
run\dos\run
I personally extend an invitation to everyone to sign up for Hotmail. Why not give the Hotmail servers the old /. effect???
Change Log:
V 2.0 Improved Algorithm for Friend vs Foe Detection 75% Accuracy Achieved
V 1.9 Added Laser Sight to Radius
V 1.8 Camouflage Skinning option added
V 1.7 Bayonet Interface now retracts
V 1.6 Bugfix - Wife Induced Anger No Longer Causes Cannon to Fire
V 1.5 Kevlar Skin Added
V 1.4 OSHA Safety Stickers Approved
V 1.3 Back Pack Bullet Feed Hopper Available
V 1.2 Bugfix - Trigger Mechanism No Longer Activated by 2.4 MHz Radio Activity
V 1.1 Removed Insurance From File Menu - Lloyds will not Underwrite Policy due to Mis-use.
V 1.0 Bear Arms Initial Release - No Flaws Found in Laboratory Testing (Mice)
At my first exposure to the Internet, it was nearly perfect. Consisting of little more than a collection of websites that people found interesting, informative, and/or fun. It was based on people/institutions wanting to share knowledge and experience, not entities looking to extract my cash, or make a quick buck.
Those sites that did have something to sell, actually had product that would sell based on its merit, not because it was hosted on a "cool" site with free games, discounts, etc. Why do I care if whatever goofy-dumb-site, paid for by dubbaklik.dumb, goes away? I sincerely doubt that the Internet(world) will be a worse place for it.
If I am searching for a product, or service, I want to let the search engine find it. When/if I find what I am looking for, I then make my purchase. If I don't find it, then maybe I don't really need it. (Hint here: products.google.com, services.google.com???)
I don't want to look at advertising, no matter how it manifests itself (e.g. Pop-Ups, Banners, etc.), even if it is something I might want. I make it a point to NOT purchase a product or service, if they try to advertise like this. If dubbakilk.dumb can't make their business model work because of my choice not to view ads like theirs, then they need to change their business model, right?
This guy is simply whining because his gravy train is going away, and he might actually have to innovate and add real value for the consumer, to make his business model work.
I feel that if a product, or service, is worth purchasing, the site of the seller will be able to make the sale, without getting in my face.
Don't threaten me with crap websites going away, because you'll find that's exactly what I want!