We're running voicemail on system called CallXpress (it has other names as well) on an older Pentium system with OS/2 Warp installed. There is NO network connection on it, nor will I ever allow it.
I've run CallXpress on OS/2. VERY nice system. But I would consider throwing a nic in there. OS/2's networking is very much like *nix, so I wouldn't worry too much about compromises, unless you turn on Lantasic stuff, or any other services. By default, just like Linux, just adding a NIC and doing an ifconfig isn't going to turn anything on.
Plus CallXpress has some additional features that make use of the NIC. Unfortunately we didn't have the room for the NIC, we already had 4 phone cards in the box.
I feel bad for you though, you don't want OS/2 on the network, but beware, the next version of CallXpress runs on Win2k.:(
After reading the parent, I propose a new mod category: Disgusting.
I can't decide if it should be +1 or -1 though.
I think I had one of those in High School. It was on the palm of my hand, just below my 'pinkey knuckle'. Because I never did anything in class, one day I spent about an hour just picking at it, trying to see what it was.
After picking, and pulling, and a little digging, I finally squeezed it hard enough that a 1/8" 'thing' popped out of my hand like a zit. It bled like hell after that, but never came back.
US courts of law-- as opposed to what you see on the evening news-- are very much concerned with simple facts. Attorneys appeal to emotion; that's part of their job, to persuade the jury. But when all is said and done, the decision is based on the facts of the case.
I surely hope you are right. But that actually brings up an incident I'm familar with. My brother-in-law was convicted of rape. He was a HS Senior, and the two girls were freshman. Now, treating 18yr olds and 15 yr olds equally in school is a problem in and of itself - but I digress. I can't tell you if it was forced (DURING School, in the theater), but I do know of the inconsistancies between the attornies. For example, the girls said he held a knife to them. When searches took place, no specific knife was found, and it was agree that as part of his plea (the moron admitted to having sex with them - he's not too bright, just being 18 screwed him) that no information about a knife would be used in court. The DA presented evidence that 'A knife like this (shows LONG bladed knife) was found during the search'. Yet no knife was found (other than what's in the kitchen) that had anything to do with the case.
Sorry, they're all scammers. Like the chick who claimed Mark Chmura raped her. Did you watch that on Court TV? That was hilarious.
It's amazing what an accusation and a DA looking for an appointment can do to you.
Even the most incompetent defense attorney will never let that sort of thing get into evidence.
Damnit. I forgot "IANAL", and maybe I didn't explain the point; The U.S.courts of law are more concerned with grand displays than simple facts. 'He hit her' is much less thrilling than 'He savagely beat her'.
The only way to win is to NOT be 'average'. You have to be polar opposites.
I've been developing some apps using Mozilla at work. I've been really happy with it, frankly. The GUI development couldn't be easier, you can create relatively complex widgets with it easily, and, with the exception of any compiled XPCOM objects you may have, it's cross-platform.
Do you do any database access with it? Are there Native 'Mozilla' database modules, or do you use ODBC?
There are enough problems with the DMCA that we don't need to make things up. If stories like this become commonplace, then lawmakers will soon ignore anyone who opposes the DMCA because they'll automatically assume they're acting on FUD and not the facts.
Don't you know how the U.S. legal system works? Let me explain:
If I spank my kid in public, the DA (District Attorney) will go back to my H.S. classmates and former employers and show that I generally disrespect authority, maybe was a bully, have a short temper, and that the incident was the latest in a string of inhumane behavior and child abuse that dates back at least 10 years.
My defense attorney, will argue that I was never disciplined for any such actions, never in a fight that is on record, and never visited by the local Social Worker (Except for our first child, which came before we were married - and is std procedure). I currently am active in my childrens lives, have defied 'conventional wisdom' by marrying my 'HS swetheart', having a kid before we were married, and staying married 8 years and having 2 more kids. S/He would also pull in a shrink to counter any past 'anger' issues due to the fact that my mom wasn't "all there".
All for what really was a spanking. (No, this didn't happen to me, but WI has tried to jail teen fathers - who try to do the right thing and be a father - for rape. So it's not impossible.)
The DMCA exists because lawmakers were convinced that the economy was going to fall because of piracy and free-flowing information. The only way to combat this in the U.S. is NOT by being rational - it's by meeting and exceeding the original irrational ideas, in an opposite way, that brought this beast into existance in the first place.
With that said, it is surprising at how many people will reply with their password or credit card number when someone pretends to be part of AOL's staff.
I hope you're not implying I actually did that. I've reported the same ICQ scam a couple times, only to get another email pointing to the SAME SERVER a week later.
In any case, I'm not surprised my number has been used. It's been 'allocated' for at least 2 years. It's a check-card, and I don't have checks, so that's all I use. My 2 years of 'credit card' usage is probably equal to 10 years of anyone elses regular credit card useage.
So between internet store databases being easily accessed, and card #'s not being encrypted, and my general use through gas stations and the like, I'm not surprised some guy in EUROPE had the number. (Unless the IP that's owned by ripe.net was a proxy server at the time he used the card) When I worked for a card processor, the worst 'fraud' came from a guy in the Security dept who was selling CC#'s. Doesn't THAT make you feel safe?
... which you would think an editor would include, IF SETI@home NEEDS MONEY, but I guess he was too worried about submitting the story before me, dammit.
Of course I was denied 2 hours ago.. how long could that story have existed? Maybe I took too long by ACTUALLY READING IT:P
Do you think one of the new frogs found is the hypno-toad? 'Cause I could really use one of those.
The way they're handing out grants these days to funky studies (Study: Rich kids do more drugs than poor kids), I wouldn't think it too hard to get a few hundred bucks to fly down there and lick all the toads.
Maybe you could even help them build a temple Homer.:)
Re:Considering you're on the board at scyld..
on
Ask Donald Becker
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· Score: 1
Crynwr is a Welsh word, and in Welsh both 'y' and 'w' are vowels. So thats a pretty good ratio...
I knew that (not because I'm smart, but I've seen it asked before). At least you could have waited until I got a +1 funny;)
Considering you're on the board at scyld..
on
Ask Donald Becker
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· Score: 5, Funny
Did you ever have anything to do with crynwr?
And why don't you people like vowels?:)
Definately interesting, but do I spent my time trying to get that store (in zip a) that's 10 miles from me (zip b) to show up, even though the center of zip a is 12 miles from the center of zip b?
I suppose I could even go as far as lat & long for the street, how exact should it be? What kind of extra loads would that create? That was kind of my initial point. "Good Enough" usually is.
I still need to get a good data set of store listings (they're not MY stores, we only distribute), before I can determine if the result set should to have 15 stores instead of 12.
but the number of jobs which require some amount of programming is vastly larger, and increasing. And I speak as someone who has programmed in all my past jobs at places where a CS degree doesn't even get you an interview.
Now I think we're getting into personal preference. Personally, I have worked at and with large companies who have to hire that way merely because of their size and popularity. When you get into those larger companies, your role becomes much smaller (Of course that depends on what rung you're on).
Then you get into typical "What the HELL are they doing up there?" mode, and all you can do is follow orders.
I can't do that anymore, I have to set the pace. Small companies are where it's at. Sure the pay may not match up to big corporations, but we close at 4:30 SHARP. It's common for me to have to lock up at 4:45, because I'm the last one there. 11:30 on Fridays, so I can go 'moonlighting' in the afternood. No overtime, week off at xmas, I'm the boss, I do everything IT, and I can watch my kids grow up.
What more could anyone ask for? (No, I don't think we'll be going under anytime soon, if you go workout, odds are good your see our stuff. You might even wear it.
I've realized this whole thread is probably useless (and definately biased), there are only 150 comments, mostly all Math/Algorythm people. I haven't heard from any infrastructure people, on how important Math classes/college are to building networks, firewalling, and security in general. I guess it goes to show how flawed surveys are. You only hear from those who want to participate and, in this case, those who are interested in the base subject.
You're doing the modern-day equivalent of ditch digging. Ditch diggers have never needed much education. If you're bright, you'll get by. That hasn't changed in 1000 years.
hehehe I think you oversimplified what I do based on the little PHP I posted. I would be an expensive ditch digger. But that doesn't change my opinions.
I liken IT to being a mechanic. You've basically said I can rotate my tires and change the oil, the same thing anybody with a car should KNOW how to do. While that's true in the real world (I'm not much of a mechanic, I spend all my time at a computer!), I'm more like your Dealer's lead mechanic, who's been doing this for 15 years.
Sure the new guys may not know much about carbs, just like your new collge grads can't move TSRs to upper memory without using Quarterdeck products, but that doesn't disqualify the experience of the lead mechanic. Just because the lead mechanic doesn't know every detail of the engine, as much as the original designer at GM would, doesn't mean his position is in jeopardy.
I think this whole slew of posts is based on perspective. I'm in the middle (lead mechanic), and you guys are doing the engine design at the parent company. From your position, it's critical, but I don't see the point (unless I want to get into engine design).
There was a nice troll about competing with me for a programming position. That's a perfect example: I don't want a programming position. I have what I need now, a little of everything. I wear all the hats. I just wanted to know if others were at my perspective. Maybe everyone else just likes to concentrate on one area.
Maybe I have ADD, because I can't do that:)
The trig lesson is nifty, but because I have no use for that information, I'll forget it instantly (kinda like the physics stuff). Thanks anyways.
If you want to have some respect, and some security, become skilled in some field such as physics or engineering (or chemistry, or mathematical genetics, or anything which is HARD). Let the coding be the tool which lets you do what makes you valuable to your employer, rather than the only value you can provide.
I have yet to work anywhere that thinks that way. I'm not challenging you, but employers I've worked for (two major, I admit) haven't found that necessary. Credit Card processing, and manufacturing/distribution, just don't have a need for heavy math. If you WANT something hard, that you haven't listed, learn how credit card processing works. It's not an easy path to follow.
Personally, I don't need the respect. Only having to work 40hrs a week (because I've made everything work, and people aren't changing things out from under me), and going home to my kids is all I need.
Hell, the fact that I'm 28, have 3 kids, married my HS sweetheart, and Manage IT (even for a small company) with a HS diploma is enough anti-"the way you're supposed to do it" for my own personal ego trip. (And I don't have school loans, nya nya:P)
Funny, I'm someone with a lot of mathematical training (Ph.D. in Applied Math) but only a few courses in computer science. Somehow, I've managed to pick up a humungous amount of CS along the way, things like algorithm design and analysis, designing and coding industrial-strength C/C++ libraries and applications (yes I get paid for this), high-performance computing, OpenGL coding to roll my own volume visualization apps, doing all of my own unix system administration, setting up all of my own hardware...I've always thought that the best way to become really good at coding and software engineering is to first get a degree in mathematics. If you can do that, the rest is easy.
Hehe, I'm coming from the opposite direction: A little BASIC on a TI99/4a, a little Apple ][ hardware install, a little PICK navigation to FDISK and boot to my games on my mom's PC, hardware, networking, OS...
At this point, my next 'advanced' task is to write a replacement shipping EDI application. Java I hope, but I don't see any advanced math coming into play. You know what's really scary, sometimes I forget (like now) what you call the base of a number, without the decimals. Is that an integer? Pretty bad, but I haven't needed it. I can't even remember what I used in my C++ class last month.. Not an int, a float? ah well.
Maybe when I get to OpenGL programming, which I assume may require algorythm design, I'll go take some math classes:) But I don't see that day coming any time soon.
At this point, with advanced math, I'm like Sean Connery in 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade', "I wrote it down so I wouldn't HAVE to remember".
Your code may do the job, but does it do the job efficiently? And if it didn't, how would you know?
But what kind of programs? Like another poster said, math isn't really involved in the mainstream too much anymore. The dealer locator is the only thing that has made me think of anything math related in quite a while.
I also didn't spell out my duties. While the inital post may be directed at programmers, how many programmers are directly affected by math? I don't just program, and my programming isn't very intense. I've taken ONE week-long C++ crash course, and that's it. While I still haven't done anything in C++, I've done things in FoxPro, C, PHP, Perl - simple stuff. Want an example of what I've done? www.havokmon.com/stuff. Little blurbs. Nothing major. I didn't need advanced math, and yes, they apply to my job:)
How do I compare with the rest of the industry? I don't know. I have NOT worked for a company that produces applications. I have worked for companies that produce their OWN applications. The only app I know of that had any intense math in it, was a 'sales tool'. You could visually zoom in on any locations on a US map, and get population, sales density, and some other figures. I'm SURE that required heavy math. But that's one app out of MANY.
You make a good point, and I understand where you're coming from. But IMHO, database knowledge is much more important. If you want to know if it's efficient, you watch it execute. If it seems fast enough, it's fast enough. Remember the 90/10 theory. I learned a long time ago (from Netware server performance, actually) that spending 90% of my time trying to tweak out 10% more performance really isn't worth it in the end.
Now, if you're talking embedded systems, or console game programming - ok. But otherwise there are WAY too many constantly changing variables to try and tweak stuff over 90%.
What came out as a belittling tone probably slipped through because I know that colleges around the country are churning out graduates with BSes in Information Technology or similar majors, all of whom are going to be going after YOUR JOB.
For what I've seen, I think they're mostly programmers and MCSE's. That's not too damaging to me. For practial, in-house purposes, I can pickup whatever I need programming-wise. I completely understand I won't be programming games, or advanced simulations any time soon (Hell, you can find my pitiful posts on wine-devel about trying to get FoxPro running.. rick@v a leoinc). But those positions always seemed like a small percentage of the market as a whole. Everybody needs a network, internet access, firewalls, phones - infrastructure. It just seems like a bigger target to me.
Fortunately for me, most people I run into are sorely lacking on what I would lump together as basic infrastructure.
(but at this moment, I have to put php aside,so I can figure out an EDI issue with FoxPro) I love having so many different things. How many EDI people know PC's? Networks? The consultant who interviewed me for this job didn't know many, so here I am!
Ok.. enough of the ego-boosting stuff for now:)
Personally, I think experience can replace college. You just have to be resourceful, and create a resume that shows it. I think I did a good job doing that.
Now, Social Skills OTOH....It would have been good for me to live in a dorm for a few years. I dormed weekends with my girlfriend - which got me to where I am today, family-wise:)
So maybe it wouldn't have been such a good idea to live in a dorm:P
I won't bash you like some of the other replies to your post, nor will I give you hope that you can advance past a limited set of jobs in the IT industry.
Thanks for not bashing, and please don't think I'm attacking when I say this but:
If anything was learned from this post, it's that there are a lot of PROGRAMMERS who read Slashdot. IMHO, Programming in itself is a limited set of jobs in the IT industry.
Let me stress again that college teaches you about your subject matter and how to solve problems for it. You can come up with this stuff by yourself, in my experience only a tiny percent working without a college degree will ever accrue enough to offset what they missed in college.
You post sounds depressing, but don't worry about me, I'm all set (maybe I'm even in that small percentage). Maybe I'll go back to college when my kids are teenagers. I'll still be less than 40. Yes, I did EVERYTHING early - against the grain, thankyouverymuch:)
How did you write the search function? Did you come up with an alorgithm on your own? Did you use a prewritten, off-the-shelf search routine?
Google: PHP MYSQL dealer locator
:)
A couple minutes of going through results granted me a simple:
$sql = "select zipcode.zip_code, sqrt(power(69.1*(zipcode.lat - $lat1),2)+ power(69.1*(zipcode.lng-$long1)*cos(z
ipcode.lat/ 57.3),2)) as dist, $dealer.* from $dealer LEFT JOIN zipcode on ";
$sql = $sql . " $dealer.zip = zipcode.zip_code where sqrt(power(69.1*(zipcode.lat - $lat1),2)+ power(69.1*(zipc
ode.lng- $long1)*cos(zipcode.lat/57.3),2))
So, no, I didn't have to sit down and figure out how to account for the curvature of the earth, and other things I'd consider 're-inventing the wheel'.
As for the sine explanation.. That makes sense.. Now I'm going to have to go look up how it's applied.
Well yeah, man, if you want to be grinding out php and html or doing admin work for the rest of your life, sure, there's no reason to get a higher education, and if you're happy with what you're doing then that's great.
Well, that sounds a bit belittling. I think building networks (I'm beyond admin, I just do EVERYTHING - including PBX) can be just as difficult as programming, and you get the same rewards.
I don't really grind out anything. Hell, I put up a TV antenna last summer, and hooked up the security cameras to a linux box for motion detection around xmas. I'd much rather be doing 90 different things, than concentrate on programming in 'X'..
Maybe I should have left out the 'Manager' part:) (I'm just the only one here.)
Then again, maybe I AM that good, and you're all just jealous! muhuhuhahaha!:)
I wonder how much better could we be if coders knew basic math
Funny this topic should come up. I just did a 'Store Locator' for the company I work for (I'm the IT Manager, belive it or not). All I have is your basic HS diploma, and in creating the search, I realized I don't know a damn thing about sine and cosine. I don't know how they're used, or how they're applied. I have a feeling that they're somehow related to geometry (which makes sense, seeing I have to get a distance between two points on a curve - the earth), but I'm not sure.
Sure, it's probably taken me longer to write this post, than it took to find the php code I used as a basis for the search, but how much math is REALLY needed overall?
I slept through school, I did really bad, all because I felt it was worthless. I did feel that my business class, business law, and basic Algebra has been useful. But overall, it wasn't worth my time. Hell I had a physics teacher who'd pick on me because I was flunking (it's amazing what good test grades + 0 homework does to you), but I just found physics interesting - jeez, it was only HS. I was testing the waters, not padding my GPA. I believe that's what's HS is FOR.
And if you KNOW what you want to do (I knew I wanted to fix/program computers when I played on my Apple ][ in 6th grade), what the hell is college for?
The ease of the internet sure hasn't helped my perception.
Granted, I'm just a techno dude. But Dictionary.com says:
Patent:
A grant made by a government that confers upon the creator of an invention the sole right to make, use, and sell that invention for a set period of time.
License:
Official or legal permission to do or own a specified thing. See Synonyms at permission.
I would patent it, then license it. It could be licensed for free use to non-profit groups, and governments could be required to pay a yearly sum.
Slashdot Mirror
I've run CallXpress on OS/2. VERY nice system. But I would consider throwing a nic in there. OS/2's networking is very much like *nix, so I wouldn't worry too much about compromises, unless you turn on Lantasic stuff, or any other services. By default, just like Linux, just adding a NIC and doing an ifconfig isn't going to turn anything on.
Plus CallXpress has some additional features that make use of the NIC. Unfortunately we didn't have the room for the NIC, we already had 4 phone cards in the box.
I feel bad for you though, you don't want OS/2 on the network, but beware, the next version of CallXpress runs on Win2k. :(
I can't decide if it should be +1 or -1 though.
I think I had one of those in High School. It was on the palm of my hand, just below my 'pinkey knuckle'. Because I never did anything in class, one day I spent about an hour just picking at it, trying to see what it was.
After picking, and pulling, and a little digging, I finally squeezed it hard enough that a 1/8" 'thing' popped out of my hand like a zit.
It bled like hell after that, but never came back.
I surely hope you are right. But that actually brings up an incident I'm familar with. My brother-in-law was convicted of rape. He was a HS Senior, and the two girls were freshman. Now, treating 18yr olds and 15 yr olds equally in school is a problem in and of itself - but I digress. I can't tell you if it was forced (DURING School, in the theater), but I do know of the inconsistancies between the attornies. For example, the girls said he held a knife to them. When searches took place, no specific knife was found, and it was agree that as part of his plea (the moron admitted to having sex with them - he's not too bright, just being 18 screwed him) that no information about a knife would be used in court. The DA presented evidence that 'A knife like this (shows LONG bladed knife) was found during the search'. Yet no knife was found (other than what's in the kitchen) that had anything to do with the case.
Sorry, they're all scammers. Like the chick who claimed Mark Chmura raped her. Did you watch that on Court TV? That was hilarious.
It's amazing what an accusation and a DA looking for an appointment can do to you.
Damnit. I forgot "IANAL", and maybe I didn't explain the point; The U.S.courts of law are more concerned with grand displays than simple facts. 'He hit her' is much less thrilling than 'He savagely beat her'.
The only way to win is to NOT be 'average'. You have to be polar opposites.
And here I thought he was one of the knights who say "Ni!"
Do you do any database access with it? Are there Native 'Mozilla' database modules, or do you use ODBC?
Don't you know how the U.S. legal system works? Let me explain:
If I spank my kid in public, the DA (District Attorney) will go back to my H.S. classmates and former employers and show that I generally disrespect authority, maybe was a bully, have a short temper, and that the incident was the latest in a string of inhumane behavior and child abuse that dates back at least 10 years.
My defense attorney, will argue that I was never disciplined for any such actions, never in a fight that is on record, and never visited by the local Social Worker (Except for our first child, which came before we were married - and is std procedure). I currently am active in my childrens lives, have defied 'conventional wisdom' by marrying my 'HS swetheart', having a kid before we were married, and staying married 8 years and having 2 more kids. S/He would also pull in a shrink to counter any past 'anger' issues due to the fact that my mom wasn't "all there".
All for what really was a spanking. (No, this didn't happen to me, but WI has tried to jail teen fathers - who try to do the right thing and be a father - for rape. So it's not impossible.)
The DMCA exists because lawmakers were convinced that the economy was going to fall because of piracy and free-flowing information. The only way to combat this in the U.S. is NOT by being rational - it's by meeting and exceeding the original irrational ideas, in an opposite way, that brought this beast into existance in the first place.
I hope you're not implying I actually did that. I've reported the same ICQ scam a couple times, only to get another email pointing to the SAME SERVER a week later.
In any case, I'm not surprised my number has been used. It's been 'allocated' for at least 2 years. It's a check-card, and I don't have checks, so that's all I use. My 2 years of 'credit card' usage is probably equal to 10 years of anyone elses regular credit card useage.
So between internet store databases being easily accessed, and card #'s not being encrypted, and my general use through gas stations and the like, I'm not surprised some guy in EUROPE had the number. (Unless the IP that's owned by ripe.net was a proxy server at the time he used the card) When I worked for a card processor, the worst 'fraud' came from a guy in the Security dept who was selling CC#'s. Doesn't THAT make you feel safe?
Of course I was denied 2 hours ago.. how long could that story have existed? Maybe I took too long by ACTUALLY READING IT :P
Yeah, tell that to the guy who used my credit card number to sign up for maglobe.com
The way they're handing out grants these days to funky studies (Study: Rich kids do more drugs than poor kids), I wouldn't think it too hard to get a few hundred bucks to fly down there and lick all the toads.
Maybe you could even help them build a temple Homer. :)
I knew that (not because I'm smart, but I've seen it asked before). At least you could have waited until I got a +1 funny ;)
And why don't you people like vowels?
(Thanks for the ne2000 driver!)
Definately interesting, but do I spent my time trying to get that store (in zip a) that's 10 miles from me (zip b) to show up, even though the center of zip a is 12 miles from the center of zip b?
I suppose I could even go as far as lat & long for the street, how exact should it be? What kind of extra loads would that create? That was kind of my initial point. "Good Enough" usually is.
I still need to get a good data set of store listings (they're not MY stores, we only distribute), before I can determine if the result set should to have 15 stores instead of 12.
Thanks for the info!
Now I think we're getting into personal preference. Personally, I have worked at and with large companies who have to hire that way merely because of their size and popularity. When you get into those larger companies, your role becomes much smaller (Of course that depends on what rung you're on). Then you get into typical "What the HELL are they doing up there?" mode, and all you can do is follow orders.
I can't do that anymore, I have to set the pace. Small companies are where it's at. Sure the pay may not match up to big corporations, but we close at 4:30 SHARP. It's common for me to have to lock up at 4:45, because I'm the last one there. 11:30 on Fridays, so I can go 'moonlighting' in the afternood. No overtime, week off at xmas, I'm the boss, I do everything IT, and I can watch my kids grow up.
What more could anyone ask for? (No, I don't think we'll be going under anytime soon, if you go workout, odds are good your see our stuff. You might even wear it.
I've realized this whole thread is probably useless (and definately biased), there are only 150 comments, mostly all Math/Algorythm people. I haven't heard from any infrastructure people, on how important Math classes/college are to building networks, firewalling, and security in general. I guess it goes to show how flawed surveys are. You only hear from those who want to participate and, in this case, those who are interested in the base subject.
hehehe I think you oversimplified what I do based on the little PHP I posted. I would be an expensive ditch digger. But that doesn't change my opinions.
I liken IT to being a mechanic. You've basically said I can rotate my tires and change the oil, the same thing anybody with a car should KNOW how to do. While that's true in the real world (I'm not much of a mechanic, I spend all my time at a computer!), I'm more like your Dealer's lead mechanic, who's been doing this for 15 years.
Sure the new guys may not know much about carbs, just like your new collge grads can't move TSRs to upper memory without using Quarterdeck products, but that doesn't disqualify the experience of the lead mechanic. Just because the lead mechanic doesn't know every detail of the engine, as much as the original designer at GM would, doesn't mean his position is in jeopardy.
I think this whole slew of posts is based on perspective. I'm in the middle (lead mechanic), and you guys are doing the engine design at the parent company. From your position, it's critical, but I don't see the point (unless I want to get into engine design).
There was a nice troll about competing with me for a programming position. That's a perfect example: I don't want a programming position. I have what I need now, a little of everything. I wear all the hats. I just wanted to know if others were at my perspective. Maybe everyone else just likes to concentrate on one area.
Maybe I have ADD, because I can't do that :)
The trig lesson is nifty, but because I have no use for that information, I'll forget it instantly (kinda like the physics stuff). Thanks anyways.
If you want to have some respect, and some security, become skilled in some field such as physics or engineering (or chemistry, or mathematical genetics, or anything which is HARD). Let the coding be the tool which lets you do what makes you valuable to your employer, rather than the only value you can provide.
I have yet to work anywhere that thinks that way. I'm not challenging you, but employers I've worked for (two major, I admit) haven't found that necessary. Credit Card processing, and manufacturing/distribution, just don't have a need for heavy math. If you WANT something hard, that you haven't listed, learn how credit card processing works. It's not an easy path to follow.
Personally, I don't need the respect. Only having to work 40hrs a week (because I've made everything work, and people aren't changing things out from under me), and going home to my kids is all I need.
Hell, the fact that I'm 28, have 3 kids, married my HS sweetheart, and Manage IT (even for a small company) with a HS diploma is enough anti-"the way you're supposed to do it" for my own personal ego trip. (And I don't have school loans, nya nya :P)
Hehe, I'm coming from the opposite direction: A little BASIC on a TI99/4a, a little Apple ][ hardware install, a little PICK navigation to FDISK and boot to my games on my mom's PC, hardware, networking, OS...
At this point, my next 'advanced' task is to write a replacement shipping EDI application. Java I hope, but I don't see any advanced math coming into play. You know what's really scary, sometimes I forget (like now) what you call the base of a number, without the decimals. Is that an integer? Pretty bad, but I haven't needed it. I can't even remember what I used in my C++ class last month.. Not an int, a float? ah well.
Maybe when I get to OpenGL programming, which I assume may require algorythm design, I'll go take some math classes :) But I don't see that day coming any time soon.
At this point, with advanced math, I'm like Sean Connery in 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade',
"I wrote it down so I wouldn't HAVE to remember".
But what kind of programs? Like another poster said, math isn't really involved in the mainstream too much anymore. The dealer locator is the only thing that has made me think of anything math related in quite a while.
I also didn't spell out my duties. While the inital post may be directed at programmers, how many programmers are directly affected by math? I don't just program, and my programming isn't very intense. I've taken ONE week-long C++ crash course, and that's it. While I still haven't done anything in C++, I've done things in FoxPro, C, PHP, Perl - simple stuff. Want an example of what I've done? www.havokmon.com/stuff. Little blurbs. Nothing major. I didn't need advanced math, and yes, they apply to my job :)
How do I compare with the rest of the industry? I don't know. I have NOT worked for a company that produces applications. I have worked for companies that produce their OWN applications. The only app I know of that had any intense math in it, was a 'sales tool'. You could visually zoom in on any locations on a US map, and get population, sales density, and some other figures. I'm SURE that required heavy math. But that's one app out of MANY.
You make a good point, and I understand where you're coming from. But IMHO, database knowledge is much more important. If you want to know if it's efficient, you watch it execute. If it seems fast enough, it's fast enough. Remember the 90/10 theory. I learned a long time ago (from Netware server performance, actually) that spending 90% of my time trying to tweak out 10% more performance really isn't worth it in the end.
Now, if you're talking embedded systems, or console game programming - ok. But otherwise there are WAY too many constantly changing variables to try and tweak stuff over 90%.
YMMV :)
For what I've seen, I think they're mostly programmers and MCSE's. That's not too damaging to me. For practial, in-house purposes, I can pickup whatever I need programming-wise. I completely understand I won't be programming games, or advanced simulations any time soon (Hell, you can find my pitiful posts on wine-devel about trying to get FoxPro running.. rick@v a leoinc). But those positions always seemed like a small percentage of the market as a whole. Everybody needs a network, internet access, firewalls, phones - infrastructure. It just seems like a bigger target to me.
Fortunately for me, most people I run into are sorely lacking on what I would lump together as basic infrastructure.
(but at this moment, I have to put php aside,so I can figure out an EDI issue with FoxPro) I love having so many different things. How many EDI people know PC's? Networks? The consultant who interviewed me for this job didn't know many, so here I am!
Ok.. enough of the ego-boosting stuff for now :)
Personally, I think experience can replace college. You just have to be resourceful, and create a resume that shows it. I think I did a good job doing that.
Now, Social Skills OTOH....It would have been good for me to live in a dorm for a few years. I dormed weekends with my girlfriend - which got me to where I am today, family-wise :)
So maybe it wouldn't have been such a good idea to live in a dorm :P
Thanks for not bashing, and please don't think I'm attacking when I say this but:
If anything was learned from this post, it's that there are a lot of PROGRAMMERS who read Slashdot. IMHO, Programming in itself is a limited set of jobs in the IT industry.
Let me stress again that college teaches you about your subject matter and how to solve problems for it. You can come up with this stuff by yourself, in my experience only a tiny percent working without a college degree will ever accrue enough to offset what they missed in college.
You post sounds depressing, but don't worry about me, I'm all set (maybe I'm even in that small percentage). Maybe I'll go back to college when my kids are teenagers. I'll still be less than 40. :)
Yes, I did EVERYTHING early - against the grain, thankyouverymuch
A couple minutes of going through results granted me a simple:
Well, that sounds a bit belittling. I think building networks (I'm beyond admin, I just do EVERYTHING - including PBX) can be just as difficult as programming, and you get the same rewards.
I don't really grind out anything. Hell, I put up a TV antenna last summer, and hooked up the security cameras to a linux box for motion detection around xmas. I'd much rather be doing 90 different things, than concentrate on programming in 'X'..
Maybe I should have left out the 'Manager' part :) (I'm just the only one here.)
Then again, maybe I AM that good, and you're all just jealous! muhuhuhahaha! :)
Funny this topic should come up. I just did a 'Store Locator' for the company I work for (I'm the IT Manager, belive it or not). All I have is your basic HS diploma, and in creating the search, I realized I don't know a damn thing about sine and cosine. I don't know how they're used, or how they're applied. I have a feeling that they're somehow related to geometry (which makes sense, seeing I have to get a distance between two points on a curve - the earth), but I'm not sure.
Sure, it's probably taken me longer to write this post, than it took to find the php code I used as a basis for the search, but how much math is REALLY needed overall?
I slept through school, I did really bad, all because I felt it was worthless. I did feel that my business class, business law, and basic Algebra has been useful. But overall, it wasn't worth my time. Hell I had a physics teacher who'd pick on me because I was flunking (it's amazing what good test grades + 0 homework does to you), but I just found physics interesting - jeez, it was only HS. I was testing the waters, not padding my GPA. I believe that's what's HS is FOR.
And if you KNOW what you want to do (I knew I wanted to fix/program computers when I played on my Apple ][ in 6th grade), what the hell is college for?
The ease of the internet sure hasn't helped my perception.
Am I the only one?
Patent:
A grant made by a government that confers upon the creator of an invention the sole right to make, use, and sell that invention for a set period of time.
License:
Official or legal permission to do or own a specified thing. See Synonyms at permission.
I would patent it, then license it. It could be licensed for free use to non-profit groups, and governments could be required to pay a yearly sum.
But that sounds almost too easy to me :)