I think it is a little more complex than that. Engineering grew out of both the science side and the technical side. Historically "science" has been performed by "gentlemen" whereas the technical side was done by "tradesmen".
Engineers aspired to the social status of professionals. But professionals do not strike, or unionize. That is for the worker class. Since Engineering is a melding of both the professional and worker class, there is an inherent conflict. Striking reduces our claim on being of the professional class. And since the line between being an Engineer and a Technician is murky - the desire to defend that by the professional associations is intense. (Turf defending).
So regardless of what individual engineers think - the professional associations do not let us strike. This is so pronounced that at the university I got my undergrad in, when the university faculty went on strike (they are secure in their self image), the engineering professional organization would not let, or strongly discouraged, the engineering faculty from striking.
ZK (I am working on a master's degree where I am studying this - and I am an engineer, although not in software security)
It strikes me as kind of odd to ask the women who STAYED in CS (or Engineering for that matter) why women don't want to study those fields. Aren't we the ones least likely to understand?
I'm not sure objecting to possible future law changes is valid. While the government has been known to make those proposed law changes, they still actually have to change the law. The problem with some laws, and the ones we usually complain about here, is that they don't need to be changed to be abusive. Court supervision is our society's check on the power of investigating bodies. According to the summary - the law qualifies.
So when did this become standard? I ask because both my boss and my sister have commented on my tendancy to reply after bits of email - breaking my reply into several section - answering individual parts. My sister claims to have never seen it before! My boss was just complaining about having to look for my answers.
I explained to my sister the history and logic to my style of posting. I've been on the 'net a while - but not since '71 but more than 10 years er... make that 15 years (I'm getting old). She understood and agreed it made sense. I didn't argue with my boss:^) .
Note I have never used Outlook. But then I haven't used Windows on a personally owned computer either. I know that when I try to help someone I know who uses Outlook and isn't particularly computer literate, she claims it can't do what I ask her to do. I'm not sure if that is her, or the computer. Since this is usually done by email - I can't check myself.
ZK (who has a gmail account - but doesn't use it. There is no reason for that - just too lazy to change)
I don't knit, but I quilt, sew, and do a lot of other needlework.
Sewing of clothes is done partly so I can get things that fit right in colours that suit me even when pastel pink is the "in" colour. This is particularly true since I tend to like a gothic look and I have a fairly...hmm.... hourglassy figure and most clothes out there these days is designed for sticks. Of course as an engineer I usually where whatever is in the closet - but I'd like to have nice clothes that fit! And I prefer sewing to shopping. It isn't cheaper though.
Other needlework is often done just for amusement, it keeps me occupied while watching the idiot box. (I'd really like to find a way to surf the 'net and sew at the same time). It generally relaxes me (except for when things go wrong - then it isn't relaxing:^) ). And simply because I can. Do you have any hobbies? It is no different than building models or furniture, art or anything else really.
May I suggest though that if she gives you a sweater - treat it as gold. She will love you forever for it.
Now I'm sure no one here cares but http://www.flynnquilt.com/John Flynn is an Engineer who designs and sews quilts. I like his quilts - and they are so obviously designed by an engineer.
This is not my experience. In terms of religious education and americans.
The school system I went to was religious based (you got to choose what religion - but "none" was not an option.) We learnt about creationism - but in religion class. In science class we learnt evolution. Creationism was NEVER taught as science. And I suspect most people who believe in creationism, do in that sense - as religion, not as a science. In my opinion science and religion rarely attempt to answer the same questions so, in that theory the conflict should be minimal.
As for Americans - most of the ones I have met were kind, friendly and intelligent. That is why their politicians confuse me so much.
There was even a TV personality (Fred MacMurray in My Three Sons) who played an aeronautical engineer, and he was actually portrayed in a positive light!
The husband on "Medium" is an Aerospace Engineer. My husband and I refer to the show as "that show with the aerospace engineer". He doesn't do much engineering though.
Maybe if we are lucky we will get a show of our very own.:^)
Just the same I don't really see culture as the issue. I was a nerd in highschool - and it was hell. Once I got to university, smart became good and life got a lot better. But there was never any doubt what I'd study, nor was there any doubt for most of the people in class. Do people really choose careers based on percieved "coolness" and money or do they do it because their aptitudes and interests lie that way?
I know I chose for the later reason. My husband, who is also a gifted artist, decided to do engineering because it pays better (much) but he is also a gifted engineer, so it was an even choice in terms of interest and aptitude. Neither law nor medicine was a contender for either of us. Most of the lawyers I know actually did chose the field because of their beliefs and they really wanted to make a difference to people. Well there is the one guy who did corporate law - for the money. But he was truely about the money - in everything.
I think the answer isn't "coolness". It is interest - how do you foster an interest? And I think that is done by showing children what engineers do. What questions they answer and how they do it. Showing the beauty in bridges and buildings. And explaining a little why they look like they do. And how traffic lights work.
But what do I know - I'm still a nerd, and I still don't know how "normal" people think.
ZK (okay I really wanted to be an astronaut - but there aren't many openings:^) )
My father-in-law is my hero. He can take a whole combine apart and put it back together with NO SPARE PARTS! (And it runs better too).
But the problem with being a female geek is the minute something I have breaks, everyone around me goes - "Hey I can fix that!"
MINE - elbows up - just try it - we'll see if we can put you back together:^)
Well I remember in one of the "ethics" courses they make me take at work that you aren't allowed to say that you will "bury" the competition. Seems that it can be taken as anti-competitive and used against you in court. Of course this is Microsoft we are talking about... being accused of being anti-coompetive isn't exactly anything new.
ZK
Slashdot Mirror
I think it is a little more complex than that. Engineering grew out of both the science side and the technical side. Historically "science" has been performed by "gentlemen" whereas the technical side was done by "tradesmen".
Engineers aspired to the social status of professionals. But professionals do not strike, or unionize. That is for the worker class. Since Engineering is a melding of both the professional and worker class, there is an inherent conflict. Striking reduces our claim on being of the professional class. And since the line between being an Engineer and a Technician is murky - the desire to defend that by the professional associations is intense. (Turf defending).
So regardless of what individual engineers think - the professional associations do not let us strike. This is so pronounced that at the university I got my undergrad in, when the university faculty went on strike (they are secure in their self image), the engineering professional organization would not let, or strongly discouraged, the engineering faculty from striking.
ZK (I am working on a master's degree where I am studying this - and I am an engineer, although not in software security)
It strikes me as kind of odd to ask the women who STAYED in CS (or Engineering for that matter) why women don't want to study those fields. Aren't we the ones least likely to understand?
ZK
Can't read TFA - you need to log in.
I'm not sure objecting to possible future law changes is valid. While the government has been known to make those proposed law changes, they still actually have to change the law. The problem with some laws, and the ones we usually complain about here, is that they don't need to be changed to be abusive. Court supervision is our society's check on the power of investigating bodies. According to the summary - the law qualifies.
ZKBecause it breaks the thread of conversation.
Why is top posting bad?
So when did this become standard? I ask because both my boss and my sister have commented on my tendancy to reply after bits of email - breaking my reply into several section - answering individual parts. My sister claims to have never seen it before! My boss was just complaining about having to look for my answers.
I explained to my sister the history and logic to my style of posting. I've been on the 'net a while - but not since '71 but more than 10 years er... make that 15 years (I'm getting old). She understood and agreed it made sense. I didn't argue with my boss :^) .
Note I have never used Outlook. But then I haven't used Windows on a personally owned computer either. I know that when I try to help someone I know who uses Outlook and isn't particularly computer literate, she claims it can't do what I ask her to do. I'm not sure if that is her, or the computer. Since this is usually done by email - I can't check myself.
ZK (who has a gmail account - but doesn't use it. There is no reason for that - just too lazy to change)I don't knit, but I quilt, sew, and do a lot of other needlework.
Sewing of clothes is done partly so I can get things that fit right in colours that suit me even when pastel pink is the "in" colour. This is particularly true since I tend to like a gothic look and I have a fairly ...hmm.... hourglassy figure and most clothes out there these days is designed for sticks. Of course as an engineer I usually where whatever is in the closet - but I'd like to have nice clothes that fit! And I prefer sewing to shopping. It isn't cheaper though.
Other needlework is often done just for amusement, it keeps me occupied while watching the idiot box. (I'd really like to find a way to surf the 'net and sew at the same time). It generally relaxes me (except for when things go wrong - then it isn't relaxing :^) ). And simply because I can. Do you have any hobbies? It is no different than building models or furniture, art or anything else really.
May I suggest though that if she gives you a sweater - treat it as gold. She will love you forever for it.
ZKDishes - women adore men who do dishes.
>
Now I'm sure no one here cares but http://www.flynnquilt.com/John Flynn is an Engineer who designs and sews quilts. I like his quilts - and they are so obviously designed by an engineer.
ZKDon't forget War. I think that is in there somewhere.
This is not my experience. In terms of religious education and americans.
The school system I went to was religious based (you got to choose what religion - but "none" was not an option.) We learnt about creationism - but in religion class. In science class we learnt evolution. Creationism was NEVER taught as science. And I suspect most people who believe in creationism, do in that sense - as religion, not as a science. In my opinion science and religion rarely attempt to answer the same questions so, in that theory the conflict should be minimal.
As for Americans - most of the ones I have met were kind, friendly and intelligent. That is why their politicians confuse me so much.
ZKThe husband on "Medium" is an Aerospace Engineer. My husband and I refer to the show as "that show with the aerospace engineer". He doesn't do much engineering though.
Maybe if we are lucky we will get a show of our very own. :^)
Just the same I don't really see culture as the issue. I was a nerd in highschool - and it was hell. Once I got to university, smart became good and life got a lot better. But there was never any doubt what I'd study, nor was there any doubt for most of the people in class. Do people really choose careers based on percieved "coolness" and money or do they do it because their aptitudes and interests lie that way?
I know I chose for the later reason. My husband, who is also a gifted artist, decided to do engineering because it pays better (much) but he is also a gifted engineer, so it was an even choice in terms of interest and aptitude. Neither law nor medicine was a contender for either of us. Most of the lawyers I know actually did chose the field because of their beliefs and they really wanted to make a difference to people. Well there is the one guy who did corporate law - for the money. But he was truely about the money - in everything.
I think the answer isn't "coolness". It is interest - how do you foster an interest? And I think that is done by showing children what engineers do. What questions they answer and how they do it. Showing the beauty in bridges and buildings. And explaining a little why they look like they do. And how traffic lights work.
But what do I know - I'm still a nerd, and I still don't know how "normal" people think.
ZK (okay I really wanted to be an astronaut - but there aren't many openingsI thought cheese was made with bacteria? mmm....cheese....
ZK
My father-in-law is my hero. He can take a whole combine apart and put it back together with NO SPARE PARTS! (And it runs better too). :^)
But the problem with being a female geek is the minute something I have breaks, everyone around me goes - "Hey I can fix that!"
MINE - elbows up - just try it - we'll see if we can put you back together
ZK
Well I remember in one of the "ethics" courses they make me take at work that you aren't allowed to say that you will "bury" the competition. Seems that it can be taken as anti-competitive and used against you in court. Of course this is Microsoft we are talking about... being accused of being anti-coompetive isn't exactly anything new. ZK