We had a talk on solar flares in the physics department in July, that had been planned for quite some time beforehand I think --- and quite fortunately, the Bastille day flare shot up a week beforehand. So they showed all the cool movies on the big screen, and gave free DVD's to everyone in the audience. The movies on the big screen were absolutely marvelous.
The flare was so bright, diffraction patterns were all through the image. They were actually able to use the diffraction pattern to get super-resolution out of the camera, IIRC.
Rather offtopic now, but I thought it was still a variety of football. You play with your feet (sort of). Of course, I don't follow the damn sport, and the only real football is Australian rules:P
leaving the Auckland showroom at one minute after midnight with a brand new, Windows XP-ready machine.
I take this to mean people are actually standing in line for this? Isn't today's PC consumer a little smarter than they were in '95 and '98? Have we learned nothing? I mean, doesn't everybody read/.?
A little smarter? You missed the part in the quote about being an All Black. For those not living in this part of the world, an All Black is a football player for the New Zealand team. Now football players never really were renouned for being smart people, so I think that probably explains everything.
TimC.
Re:This is just so wrong that it's bound to succee
on
Parrot: For Real
·
· Score: 3, Redundant
Wait a minute. I thought that Parrot (the package, not the April Fool's Joke) was supposed to be the common VM for Perl and Python, or at least that's what I gathered from the mailing list postings I read about it some time back.
Good thing this is not the real language. Cause I just looked at the test?.pasm files, and thought for a second (despite the name *.?asm) "Hey! This looks like assembler. How the hell can this be a step forward!?" But it is just a VM, and indeed it is sort of assembler language, but this is not what the end programmer sees.
The joke was about merging the syntax from the languages, but the real Parrot is about the VM. I think.:-) The details are really sketchy, and I don't have time to look at the code today (esp. since I'm on Solaris and I doubt it'd even compile).
It's only perl - sure it should... "compile". Just did a quick runthrough myself....
Hard drive technology is getting silly. 160GB? How many people can actually use that much space?
I do. Do you know how much space Radio Synthesis Imaging takes to analyse? The 2 people I work with and I have very very nearly filled our 2 35 gig drives. And I have only been working on my project for a year. I still have 3 months left on this project, and have only completed 2/3 of all my data reduction. Unless physics buy us a new disk (not likely, given the current university funding situation in Australia), we will run out in a couple of weeks.
How many people that have that much data actually put it on IDE drives? My machines have 20 and 13 GB drives and I don't have any space shortages.
You dont? My desktop has 13 gigs, and is nearly full (uni work, some of my CD's as mp3 format, data files), and my laptop has 20gigs and is nearly full (more data, more mp3's, a build of mozilla and X). As for our data disks - they are on commodity hardware running SunOS i86pc, since speed does not matter when the programs we run are limited by the 100Mbit ethernet and the CPU speeds on the ultra10, so IDE makes sense.
What I do have is speed shortages. Same old worn out technology. Mechanical storage devices... moving parts... fragmentation headaches... ugh!!! We need *new* technology.
You care to invent some for us?
In the mean time, how about making 10KRPM IDE drives, or 15KRPM. I always wonder why SCSI drives are always faster internally, because I'm pretty damn sure it has nothing to do with them being SCSI. Why not just slap an IDE controller on that new Cheetah and see what happens?
Ever noticed that SCSI cabling is complex? Need to terminate the cables, need to be under a certain length, need to be this thick fat expensive stuff? It is all related to the bandwidth it is required to handle. I'm pretty sure there is a bit of physics holding back anything better, at least for now....
maybe it's just me, but i don't think news about harddrives is very important at that moment
It is just you.
Not everyone is American. Despite the fact that most Americans think there is nothing outside the USA. Some of us think this is particularly cool technology, and a welcome relief to the "Lets bomb afganistan - we are too l337 to let them defend themselves" crap we keep hearing from you [wy]ankers.
One thing I have never understood about the economy: What the hell happens when the company has aquired all there is to be aquired? The exponential curve of aquisitions and growth cannot happen forever!
Some day, all those suits are going to find they can't get any more money just by trading shares or buying out more companies - they may actually have to do real work for a living.
A good way to cause a global crash would be to keep aquiring until you can aquire no more, with no thought for the rest of society. Why the hell does everything have to grow? One day, their greediness will come back to haunt them, as has already been shown in the damn computer industry. I just hope it all happens sooner rather than later.
Another natural language language is Chef [usyd.edu.au].
I always was slightly nervous about posting physics.usyd URL's to/.. It seems the effect hasn't hit overly hard - only 1200 accesses since the story was posted (3 hours ago?), but don't you go cutting off my data disks - all you slashdotters!:)
You could define a kilogram as the amount of water in a cubic decimeter.
Do you know how many states of water there are? Not to mention somewhere you are going to have to define a pressure, a temperature etc. You don't exactly want to end up with a circular reference in there....
Now, at CSIRO, they are researching into using a super spherical ball of silicon, about 8 cm across, and weighing 1kg. It is spherical to an accuracy of 8nm, and was built by the same glass grinders that build lenses for our precision instruments and telescopes. We have shipped one or two overseas (and have one or two in.au), so that people around the world can test 'em.
Pretty cool in all - I watched the guy pick it up with cottonwool, in the same room that I was in - no contaminant free clothes, either - it is pretty robust. It is all part of an international effort to produce new standards of mass etc - the platinum bar in Paris is getting a bit old. IIRC - CSIRO are researching another method, but can't remeber what it was....
You could even define it as the energy in some huge number of photons of a particular wavelength.:-)
Hmmm - which unfortunately comes back to a density of photons, and a length cubed, which unforteunalty comes back to that damn platinum bar in Paris. IIRC - it has a chip in the corner of it too - Ooops. I just dropped your metre - my, how you have just grown!
Since you don't support text-mode console without a full GUI, what are your plans to enable remote logging access to an AtheOS box through Unix-like facilities like telnet, ssh or X-Terminals?
It still has a terminal emulator - so presumably ssh etc should work as normal - as long as a sshd server exists!
Course, I can't actually read the site, 'cause their swerver is a bit/.ed.
From Oracle: "Databases are dramatically more complicated than any Web server or operating system technology."
Somehow, Oracle is saying that the Open Source comunity is not 'capable' of producing a dominant database...
Not being overly qualified on the issue - but I thought they would both involve much the same issues - concurrency (e.g. - SMP in OS's), failsafe (Hot swap raid, clustering, and a few features yet to be developed for linux), reliabilty/stability (Linux has this!), efficiency, etc etc. It seems several Free OS's have solved all the issues that database manufacturers would face - so what are they claiming could be so complex that Free software people couldn't cope with?
Disclaimer; I'm an amateur astronomer and a member of the Int'l Dark Sky Association.
I live (when I am not at uni) in Coonabarabran, near the largest scope in Australia. Looking at the map of.au - it seems that Coonabarabarabran is the little spec of light just north of the larger spec of light that I suspect is Dubbo. It must be, because we are the only town around the place. But the only thing we have is a football stadium (that wastes an incredible amount of light).
I remember the 10 hour exposure that David Malin took a few years back, pointed in the direction of Sydney. Sydney is 500 kms away, yet you could see Sydney, a small city to the north, and a small city to the south. Now - Coona probably contributes just as much light to the scope, despite having a few laws in place to curb excess lighting.
It is actually quite scary - I can't see a thing in Sydney - last night I couldn't tell whether clouds or the lighting was stopping me seeing the sky. But Sydney is a tiny emitter compared to some.us states.
I've sworn off Dell PCs since their finance dept. tried to screw me over on the laptop I leased for a few years in college
Got a Dell laptop. They first billed me twice, on my credit card, putting me over my limit fortunately, so I detected the problem quickly when the bank notified me. Rang Dell, they didn't know what happended and refused for some time to do anything about it. About a week later, the amont mysteriously disappeared from the account again though, but without any explanation from Dell. It was billed once from Singapore, and once from Australia.
Now, the laptop harddrive makes some worrysome sounds (in the Zip-drive "click of death" fashion - sounds like the heads are crashing), and got the drive replaced. The new one does it too, and makes occasional grinding sounds (One other person I know of has the same problems). Have encountered serveral peoples Dell lappies with cases that dont close properly - maybe banging up against the keyboard, and scratching the screen. Basically, I think their manufactuiring department has becomes real crap as of late....
Of course, what I forgot to ask, is why the hell anyone would buy a boxed set multiple times (never having bought one at all myself). You presumably buy it once to get the manual (which doesn't change too much from version to version), then you ought to just buy the CD from then on - maybe a small $20 distro (apart from the fact that you kill less trees this way).
I bought a big book once, and it taught me how to learn about linux the tradition way). No need for a tradition distro box set at all.
I bought RH 4.2 but have used free versions since.
Now that I have a DSL line and Debian's apt-get, who needs to buy anything?
Bought a copy of redhat 6.0 with the A?M mag (a little 20 page booklet in.au) a few years back for A$20, back when A$20 bought something, and then got someone to burn 6.2 for me, but after perpetual problems with deadrut being sucky (rpm version 3->4 upgrades, anyone?), and aquiring this here fast ethernet connection, and a fast link to mirror.aarnet, debian apt-get saved my life.
Of course, I don't do anything too drastic with the bandwidth - it's not like the uni have heaps of money to throw away on me downloading hundreds of megs of.debs.
I'm surprised that the slashdot readers here are so quick to believe this story. I think its very unlikely that you can send data to a cd player that will damage it... maybe if you turn the volume on your 500W amp and plug it into your little headphones, or if subliminal messages on the disk causes domestic animals to piss on the circuitry but otherwise you can take it with a pinch of salt.
There are several ways you can damage a speaker - feed DC into it (possible with a CD-player, and suitably high end equipment that has large coupling capacitors, to keep lowend cutoff to a minimum). Or kill the speakers with high harmonics - a square wave comes to mind (I'm sure there are even worse wavefunctions, but then again, I aint to good at fourrier analysis... yet). If you manage to kill the amplifier instead, then raw DC, proabbly 50V could be fed to the speakers, which have been known to set the voice-coils on fire. I think Sony could be in big trouble there - possibilty for man-slaughter, anyone?
If you read the submission carefully, note that it says that copied CDs can cause distortion, and it is this distortion that can damage audio equipment - evidently, the original CD will not do this. I have no idea whether any of this is true, but all the hysteria here about suing Sony for 'defective' CDs seems misplaced : what is going to ruin any equipment are the copied CDs, so if anything is defective it is these copied CDs - not the originals.
The original CD will not work on computer cd-roms. I listen to CD's most of the day on my laptop, whilst writing my thesis. If they were to blow my sound card on my lappy, they would be in for a A$3600 bill. Also a problem for those high end CD-players that make use of a normal IDE cd-rom drive, and expensive ADC converters - If I buy a CD, I expect to be able to run it on all my equipment, no matter the quality of it, especially, if the quality is good!
It reeks of the CSS scandle - I bought the DVD, I freeking well expect to be able to use it on my operating system - it does not work, you compensate me. You damage my equipment, while I try to use it normally, you go to court, buddy!
Bad input should not cause security problems or wreck hardware but it should be gracefully handled. In fact, good hi-fi equipment already has speaker protection.
It is the high amplitude, high harmonics that destroy the speakers. Filter out the high harmonics, and you now have a brand-new lo-fi system, with no high end frequency response, just so some fool (RIAA) can protect their (unethically obtained) income. Personally, I like my high end freqs, and I rather not put too much in the signal path such as relays, or solid state switches that might distort the signal just that little bit more.
TimC.
Re:It's still broken, but they're redundant
on
When A Cable Dies
·
· Score: 1
In any case, it didn't stop Internet connectivity for Australian users as some posters are suggesting; ISPs routed traffic onto other cable/satellite links, and while it was slower for users affected, it wasn't like Australia suddenly became broken off from the rest of the world.
Actually, I just remembered that my connection seemed intermittent last night - I could connect to various sites inside the country, but no ping repsonse from google (my standard test - aarnet is not the most reliable of connections - I need to do this every few weeks)
Just that I thought nothing more of it until now, because it happens so often. It seems the connection is less reliable than our damn physics server!;)
TimC.
That's not really a fair comparison. As the House report says, most web-based porn requires a credit card; while some adolescent males may search through those 8,120,000 sites for the few that are free, they are the committed ones: most will just give up and start complaining about how Congress restricts free speech, man.
The House report is more concerned with young people coming upon porn by accident. If I search for "xxx" or "porn" or "pr0n", chances are I'm actually looking for it.
Why then did they take the time to mention that porn, sex, xxx etc were the top n hits? It seems they are wanting to block even those people who know what they are doing from getting pr0n.
Some twelve year old girl looking for Britney Spears? Maybe the government should tell parents to just go out and buy her the CD so that she doesn't go online looking for the mp3.
Of course, anyone searching for Britney Spears is already brain damaged (retarded/special/whatever is politically correct these days) enough, that one more porn movie can't possibly do more damage to them:-)
A good solution would be for everyone infected not to pay their next bill.
400 Megabytes per infection * number of infections per computer * number of pissed off customers with faulty hardwqare = a lot of money Qwest misses out on.
Boy, would I laugh at that.
It's like here in.au, OneTel offer really dodgy service, then die in a huge collapse (taking 2000 workers with them).
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
We had a talk on solar flares in the physics department in July, that had been planned for quite some time beforehand I think --- and quite fortunately, the Bastille day flare shot up a week beforehand. So they showed all the cool movies on the big screen, and gave free DVD's to everyone in the audience. The movies on the big screen were absolutely marvelous.
The flare was so bright, diffraction patterns were all through the image. They were actually able to use the diffraction pattern to get super-resolution out of the camera, IIRC.
Very funky.
TimC.
Dude....it's Rugby, not Football
:P
Rather offtopic now, but I thought it was still a variety of football. You play with your feet (sort of). Of course, I don't follow the damn sport, and the only real football is Australian rules
'course, even that sucks.
TimC.
leaving the Auckland showroom at one minute after midnight with a brand new, Windows XP-ready machine.
/.?
I take this to mean people are actually standing in line for this? Isn't today's PC consumer a little smarter than they were in '95 and '98? Have we learned nothing? I mean, doesn't everybody read
A little smarter? You missed the part in the quote about being an All Black. For those not living in this part of the world, an All Black is a football player for the New Zealand team. Now football players never really were renouned for being smart people, so I think that probably explains everything.
TimC.
Wait a minute. I thought that Parrot (the package, not the April Fool's Joke) was supposed to be the common VM for Perl and Python, or at least that's what I gathered from the mailing list postings I read about it some time back.
:-) The details are really sketchy, and I don't have time to look at the code today (esp. since I'm on Solaris and I doubt it'd even compile).
Good thing this is not the real language. Cause I just looked at the test?.pasm files, and thought for a second (despite the name *.?asm) "Hey! This looks like assembler. How the hell can this be a step forward!?" But it is just a VM, and indeed it is sort of assembler language, but this is not what the end programmer sees.
The joke was about merging the syntax from the languages, but the real Parrot is about the VM. I think.
It's only perl - sure it should... "compile". Just did a quick runthrough myself....
TimC.
Hard drive technology is getting silly. 160GB? How many people can actually use that much space?
I do. Do you know how much space Radio Synthesis Imaging takes to analyse? The 2 people I work with and I have very very nearly filled our 2 35 gig drives. And I have only been working on my project for a year. I still have 3 months left on this project, and have only completed 2/3 of all my data reduction. Unless physics buy us a new disk (not likely, given the current university funding situation in Australia), we will run out in a couple of weeks.
How many people that have that much data actually put it on IDE drives? My machines have 20 and 13 GB drives and I don't have any space shortages.
You dont? My desktop has 13 gigs, and is nearly full (uni work, some of my CD's as mp3 format, data files), and my laptop has 20gigs and is nearly full (more data, more mp3's, a build of mozilla and X). As for our data disks - they are on commodity hardware running SunOS i86pc, since speed does not matter when the programs we run are limited by the 100Mbit ethernet and the CPU speeds on the ultra10, so IDE makes sense.
What I do have is speed shortages. Same old worn out technology. Mechanical storage devices... moving parts... fragmentation headaches... ugh!!! We need *new* technology.
You care to invent some for us?
In the mean time, how about making 10KRPM IDE drives, or 15KRPM. I always wonder why SCSI drives are always faster internally, because I'm pretty damn sure it has nothing to do with them being SCSI. Why not just slap an IDE controller on that new Cheetah and see what happens?
Ever noticed that SCSI cabling is complex? Need to terminate the cables, need to be under a certain length, need to be this thick fat expensive stuff? It is all related to the bandwidth it is required to handle. I'm pretty sure there is a bit of physics holding back anything better, at least for now....
TimC.
maybe it's just me, but i don't think news about harddrives is very important at that moment
It is just you.
Not everyone is American. Despite the fact that most Americans think there is nothing outside the USA. Some of us think this is particularly cool technology, and a welcome relief to the "Lets bomb afganistan - we are too l337 to let them defend themselves" crap we keep hearing from you [wy]ankers.
TimC.
One thing I have never understood about the economy: What the hell happens when the company has aquired all there is to be aquired? The exponential curve of aquisitions and growth cannot happen forever!
Some day, all those suits are going to find they can't get any more money just by trading shares or buying out more companies - they may actually have to do real work for a living.
A good way to cause a global crash would be to keep aquiring until you can aquire no more, with no thought for the rest of society. Why the hell does everything have to grow? One day, their greediness will come back to haunt them, as has already been shown in the damn computer industry. I just hope it all happens sooner rather than later.
TimC.
Another natural language language is Chef [usyd.edu.au].
/.. It seems the effect hasn't hit overly hard - only 1200 accesses since the story was posted (3 hours ago?), but don't you go cutting off my data disks - all you slashdotters! :)
I always was slightly nervous about posting physics.usyd URL's to
TimC.
Do you know how many states of water there are? Not to mention somewhere you are going to have to define a pressure, a temperature etc. You don't exactly want to end up with a circular reference in there....
Now, at CSIRO, they are researching into using a super spherical ball of silicon, about 8 cm across, and weighing 1kg. It is spherical to an accuracy of 8nm, and was built by the same glass grinders that build lenses for our precision instruments and telescopes. We have shipped one or two overseas (and have one or two in .au), so that people around the world can test 'em.
Pretty cool in all - I watched the guy pick it up with cottonwool, in the same room that I was in - no contaminant free clothes, either - it is pretty robust. It is all part of an international effort to produce new standards of mass etc - the platinum bar in Paris is getting a bit old. IIRC - CSIRO are researching another method, but can't remeber what it was....
You could even define it as the energy in some huge number of photons of a particular wavelength. :-)
Hmmm - which unfortunately comes back to a density of photons, and a length cubed, which unforteunalty comes back to that damn platinum bar in Paris. IIRC - it has a chip in the corner of it too - Ooops. I just dropped your metre - my, how you have just grown!
Since you don't support text-mode console without a full GUI, what are your plans to enable remote logging access to an AtheOS box through Unix-like facilities like telnet, ssh or X-Terminals?
/.ed.
It still has a terminal emulator - so presumably ssh etc should work as normal - as long as a sshd server exists!
Course, I can't actually read the site, 'cause their swerver is a bit
TimC.
Somehow, Oracle is saying that the Open Source comunity is not 'capable' of producing a dominant database...
Not being overly qualified on the issue - but I thought they would both involve much the same issues - concurrency (e.g. - SMP in OS's), failsafe (Hot swap raid, clustering, and a few features yet to be developed for linux), reliabilty/stability (Linux has this!), efficiency, etc etc. It seems several Free OS's have solved all the issues that database manufacturers would face - so what are they claiming could be so complex that Free software people couldn't cope with?
TimC.
I live (when I am not at uni) in Coonabarabran, near the largest scope in Australia. Looking at the map of .au - it seems that Coonabarabarabran is the little spec of light just north of the larger spec of light that I suspect is Dubbo. It must be, because we are the only town around the place. But the only thing we have is a football stadium (that wastes an incredible amount of light).
I remember the 10 hour exposure that David Malin took a few years back, pointed in the direction of Sydney. Sydney is 500 kms away, yet you could see Sydney, a small city to the north, and a small city to the south. Now - Coona probably contributes just as much light to the scope, despite having a few laws in place to curb excess lighting.
It is actually quite scary - I can't see a thing in Sydney - last night I couldn't tell whether clouds or the lighting was stopping me seeing the sky. But Sydney is a tiny emitter compared to some .us states.
Got a Dell laptop. They first billed me twice, on my credit card, putting me over my limit fortunately, so I detected the problem quickly when the bank notified me. Rang Dell, they didn't know what happended and refused for some time to do anything about it. About a week later, the amont mysteriously disappeared from the account again though, but without any explanation from Dell. It was billed once from Singapore, and once from Australia.
Now, the laptop harddrive makes some worrysome sounds (in the Zip-drive "click of death" fashion - sounds like the heads are crashing), and got the drive replaced. The new one does it too, and makes occasional grinding sounds (One other person I know of has the same problems). Have encountered serveral peoples Dell lappies with cases that dont close properly - maybe banging up against the keyboard, and scratching the screen. Basically, I think their manufactuiring department has becomes real crap as of late....
TimC.
I bought a big book once, and it taught me how to learn about linux the tradition way). No need for a tradition distro box set at all.
TimC.
Now that I have a DSL line and Debian's apt-get, who needs to buy anything?
Bought a copy of redhat 6.0 with the A?M mag (a little 20 page booklet in .au) a few years back for A$20, back when A$20 bought something, and then got someone to burn 6.2 for me, but after perpetual problems with deadrut being sucky (rpm version 3->4 upgrades, anyone?), and aquiring this here fast ethernet connection, and a fast link to mirror.aarnet, debian apt-get saved my life.
Of course, I don't do anything too drastic with the bandwidth - it's not like the uni have heaps of money to throw away on me downloading hundreds of megs of .debs.
TimC.
There are several ways you can damage a speaker - feed DC into it (possible with a CD-player, and suitably high end equipment that has large coupling capacitors, to keep lowend cutoff to a minimum). Or kill the speakers with high harmonics - a square wave comes to mind (I'm sure there are even worse wavefunctions, but then again, I aint to good at fourrier analysis... yet). If you manage to kill the amplifier instead, then raw DC, proabbly 50V could be fed to the speakers, which have been known to set the voice-coils on fire. I think Sony could be in big trouble there - possibilty for man-slaughter, anyone?
TimC.
The original CD will not work on computer cd-roms. I listen to CD's most of the day on my laptop, whilst writing my thesis. If they were to blow my sound card on my lappy, they would be in for a A$3600 bill. Also a problem for those high end CD-players that make use of a normal IDE cd-rom drive, and expensive ADC converters - If I buy a CD, I expect to be able to run it on all my equipment, no matter the quality of it, especially, if the quality is good!
It reeks of the CSS scandle - I bought the DVD, I freeking well expect to be able to use it on my operating system - it does not work, you compensate me. You damage my equipment, while I try to use it normally, you go to court, buddy!
TimC.
It is the high amplitude, high harmonics that destroy the speakers. Filter out the high harmonics, and you now have a brand-new lo-fi system, with no high end frequency response, just so some fool (RIAA) can protect their (unethically obtained) income. Personally, I like my high end freqs, and I rather not put too much in the signal path such as relays, or solid state switches that might distort the signal just that little bit more. TimC.
Actually, I just remembered that my connection seemed intermittent last night - I could connect to various sites inside the country, but no ping repsonse from google (my standard test - aarnet is not the most reliable of connections - I need to do this every few weeks)
Just that I thought nothing more of it until now, because it happens so often. It seems the connection is less reliable than our damn physics server! ;)
TimC.
Gotta love how the Southerncross website information content is zip if you dont bother with flash.
Is it because they want to increase their pipe usage by feeding lots of useless crap over it?
TimC.
The House report is more concerned with young people coming upon porn by accident. If I search for "xxx" or "porn" or "pr0n", chances are I'm actually looking for it.
Why then did they take the time to mention that porn, sex, xxx etc were the top n hits? It seems they are wanting to block even those people who know what they are doing from getting pr0n.
Some twelve year old girl looking for Britney Spears? Maybe the government should tell parents to just go out and buy her the CD so that she doesn't go online looking for the mp3.
Of course, anyone searching for Britney Spears is already brain damaged (retarded/special/whatever is politically correct these days) enough, that one more porn movie can't possibly do more damage to them :-)
TimC.
And you are broke why?
A good solution would be for everyone infected not to pay their next bill.
.au, OneTel offer really dodgy service, then die in a huge collapse (taking 2000 workers with them).
400 Megabytes per infection * number of infections per computer * number of pissed off customers with faulty hardwqare = a lot of money Qwest misses out on.
Boy, would I laugh at that.
It's like here in
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
TimC.
w00! I get to comment on the equality of MPAA lawyers to monkeys!
Yee haw!
--
TimC.
he he, just gotta do this:
PS1="All your \w are belong to \h>"