Back in 1997, I lost a very lucrative contract. I was 56 at the time. I went looking for work and not a single one of my efforts was responded to. I finally found a job for less than half of what I'd been making. The job entailed web design and development. I was an expert in network design and development at the time. But, any port in a storm is better than not working.
I had a new boss that let me figure it all out, i.e., he valued experience, even if not directly related. Then he resigned for a better position. The second new boss didn't think old guys were worth anything. At one point during a meeting he said, and I quote, "Why should we listen to you? You're retiring soon." Then he quit too. The third boss was another old guy. He let me do what was needed to get the project complete. As far as I know, it's still running.
11 years ago I retired at 65, and am now completely obsolete.
In my opinion, there's two sides to ageism. One, if the old guy (that's a gender neutral term if anyone is offended) keeps his skills current, and is willing to learn, then that guy is a good candidate for whatever job being offered, even if the guys current skills aren't relevant (I stand as a good example). On the other hand, someone who's just waiting to retire and not keeping up with technology, is a waste of time and money.
The guy's family had been grazing cattle on that land since the mid 1800's. The law that created, and gave all that land to the BLM was enacted in the 1930's. I's say the guy had a claim to the land much more senior than the BLM. My brother-in-law's family has been ranching on the same land since 1856. He feels the same as the guy in Nevada. His family has protected that land since long before the government claimed it was theirs.
First some context. I'm 70. I learned HTML, Java, C++ after I turned 50. I learned PHP at 64. The more languages you learn, the easier they are to learn because every language does essentially the same things. So learning a new one only involves learning the differences from the last language you used.
I would say "follow your bliss" is the only way to be happy in your job. I tried management, didn't like it and failed; not because I was doing a bad job but because my heart wasn't in the job. So, I found a programming job when I was 56. It didn't pay as much money, but it I liked doing it, and kept the job until I retired; getting outstanding reviews every year.
Number6.2 reasons are wrong. 1. Nobody is old who believes they're young. Granted one doesn't has as much energy, but that's what coffee (or your favorite stimulant is for). 2. Expensive is relative. As long as you get enough to support yourself and your family, plus a little to save, you're earning enough. By the way, I have a CS Masters also and 35 years experience, and was used to earning 6 figures. So going to a salary less than half what I had been earning was difficult, but, it wasn't impossible. 3. Knowing all the tricks and calling your manager on it, is just an excuse to be rude. One of my managers in my last job was one of those assholes. I just kept a copy of the book "How to Work for a Jerk" displayed prominently on my desk. He didn't last long. When I finally had enough (He called me a liar to my face at a staff meeting), I followed the "Open door policy," most enterprises support, all the way to the top (in my case the Chief Justice). The investigation that followed vindicated me and cost him his job.
So keep on trucking, and doing what you like best, i.e. Follow you bliss.
"Now, granted the price will necessarily be higher, and that's where the main objection from people living out in the rural area comes from."
I live in a rural area. I'd be glad to get anything faster than dial-up, even if it cost more.
The real problem, as you say, is the local telco's. In New Mexico, where I live, the local telco was ordered by the State to spend some $270 million to bring broadband to rural area's. Just 2 months ago, I got a big $20 refund because they didn't.
Whenever I ask, I always get the same answer, "That's next on our list." HA! I've been asking for 8 years now.
Maybe when our exchange is moved or bought by the Apaches, something will happen. The Apaches at least say their goal is broadband to all the local tribes (and I live within the boundaries of a reservation).
When my wife of 23 years and I got engaged, we went to a precious stone merchant where we bought our birth stones. We then had them set into a custom made engagement ring. The cost was about the same and the ring a lot more personal.
Birthstones can be viewed at http://www.gems4friends.com/birthstones.html".
Of course, if your birthday in in April and her's is in May you're going to spend a lot more than we did.
At Digital Equipment (DEC) there was an explicit two track promotion system. The managerial track, and the technical track. Managers managed and engineers did engineering. There were equivalent salary ranges all the way up to vice president/senior corporate consultant engineer.
A good friend of mine is an audiologist, and getting quite deaf. He has those state of the art hearing aids. His have three settings for the filters. Each one has a different set of audio ranges being filtered. It was quite interesting when he first got them. We'd be sitting talking, outside at a sidewalk cafe, and he'd stop, and change the setting. Seems that talking outside has different filter requirements than inside.
The thing that amazes me about these new aids is how small they are. Unless you look very cafefully, and notice the tiny little posts sticking out of his ears, the aids are undetectable.
He was one of the founders of a hearing aid company that first brought out aids with audio filters.
coldtone wrote, "Lets look at how a house is built, is all of the time spent in spec and design. Do they write a document outlining how the tub will be installed in the top floor bedroom? No, they provided a picture of what they want. (Detailed mind you, but still is just a picture.) From that the construction company builds it. The builders never get a step by step checklist."
Wrong. For a house designed by an architect (as opposed to one designed by a builder or "shudder" a developer) the vast majority of time is spent in the design and developing detailed lists of every piece of hardware, cabinets, doors, windows, etc. in the whole place. True enough, the builder isn't told how to install a tub, but, he damn sure better use the exact tub from the spec list located exactly where the drawing says it should go.
As for builder or developer designed houses, they are designed for ease of construction and conservation of building material. The design process may be just as arduous as for an architect designed house. The difference? The builder/developer re-uses the same set of design documents for each house built. Thus the apparent lack of design and specification.
Remember, the builder knows how to build, just as a programmer knows how to program. Telling either how to do the job is useless. On the other hand, telling them what to do is very much necessary.
We created an electronic filing system (Test system here) that's been in continuous use since March 1, 1999 for all criminal and juvenile cases in North Western New Mexico. I wrote a goodly chuck of the code.
And we were not the first. There are quite a few systems in use around the country.
The unique part of the Michigan system is the teleconferencing ability. And that's an even older idea.
Peace, Marty Halvorson New Mexico Supreme Court Judicial Information Division
Re:An open note to Cagle and other spec groupies.
on
Human Markup Language
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· Score: 1
I'm an author of an XML standard being used by the court systems in several states, and under development in several others.
I say that standards for describing physical characteristics are important. In the courts and criminal justice arena being able to exchange information regarding suspected criminals and criminal activities is quite important, e.g., a serial killer moving from state to state.
Describing cultural and psychological characteristice may be a stretch. But, there is a standard dictionary for many of those terms and so, perhaps, a value in encoding those terms.
XML is for the exchange of information between two dissimilar systems. If an agreement can be reached as to what information is worth exchanging, then it seems to me that enclosing that information in standard tags is worthwhile.
Peace Marty
This is old technology
on
Star In A Jar
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· Score: 1
12-13 years ago, or so, Lawrence Livermore Labs was playing with some really powerful lasers in the pursuit of sustainable fusion energy. At the time, they had the most powerful laser in the world. Many of the technologies required to create and focus multiple streams of laser light came out of those experiments.
Yeah, I remember the Homebrew Computer club. Lots of the engineers at the mainframe computer company I worked for in Silicon Valley went. I went a couple of times. Couldn't stand the emphasis on hardware and bit twiddling, even though I was a bit twiddler at work.
I also worked for MITS, the Altair folks. I sold my Altair for $1,200, including the teletype with reader/punch and cassette player, in 1982.
I agree, Silicon Valley was only one of a multitude of places (most of which were west of the Mississippi) where the PC was invented. MITS, for example, was in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Gates and company also started in Albuquerque. I can't imagine why they wanted to move someplace where the sun doesn't shine.
Peace
Nope, you're wrong. I was a part of the ANSI committee that created Fiber Channel. It came from IBM, not Apple. The project was started, in the late '80s, 1988 ISTR.
I was my companies representative to the ANSI standard committee that wrote the Fiber Channel specification at time of it's creation. Fiber Channel wasn't quite created "to excel at the streaming of data," although that was an important consideration. That was the design philosophy of HIPPI (High Performance Parallel Interface), another standard being written by the same committee at that time. The HIPPI explicit expression was create a "firehose for data." A goal HIPPI excelled in from the start (less than 2% of total bandwidth (800Mbs) was consumed by other than data).
Fiber Channel was designed to allow very high data rates from dedicated devices. Many control maechanisms were included to allow this. That effort also made Fiber Channel slow to start and switch.
Fiber Channel owes much to IBM's ideas of main frame computer I/O channels being very high throughput even if slow to start. In fact, the original proposal came from IBM. One of the things they wanted to get out of making it a standard was cheap commodity disks.
Peace Marty
It's usually the case, always for ANSI, that membership and participation in a standards setting organization is voluntary. I.e., he volunteered. Frequently members come from other organizations (either professional, not for profit, or commercial) with an interest in the standard being prepared.
Peace
Marty
I worked for a research and development group about 15 years ago. One of our areas of research was frame rates. We discovered that frame rates are a function of age, genetics, ambient light, and a number of other smaller effects. The highest rate we saw before fusion was 78 fps. Some don't see flicker at rates as low as 55 fps. Everyone saw flicker at 50 fps.
Well I guess it's time to come out of the closet. I'm 59 and still coding.
I've been the victim of age discrimination. It's what happens when employers start looking for specific skills rather than attitudes, and, more important, aptitude.
I left a National Laboratory where I was a staff member (a scientist) doing research on very high speed networks when the project I worked on ran out of money. It took me 8 months to find a new job. I went on many interviews with not one job offer. Then I shaved my beard (gray it was), the first interview I went on resulted in my current job.
The important thing, I'd say, if you want to keep coding is stay current and continue to learn. I learned Unix in my 40's, C++ in my early 50's, and right now I'm in the middle of Java and XML (I am the principal author of the Court Filing XML Standard). If you're not willing to change and continue to learn then you won't last long enough to really learn how to write code that actually does what you think it will, i.e., it works.
The axle is the gadget without which the wheel would be pretty useless. Think long cylinders used to move rocks to build the pyramids. How many long cylinders do you need to get to work?
It's only important if you intend to someday become a consultant and are willing to take full legal responsibility for your actions. Taking the test now when all that information is fresh in your mind is an advantage.
Slashdot Mirror
I'll add the very first program I wrote was in octal entered via the console of a CDC 1604.
Yes, I'm really that old.
Back in 1997, I lost a very lucrative contract. I was 56 at the time. I went looking for work and not a single one of my efforts was responded to. I finally found a job for less than half of what I'd been making. The job entailed web design and development. I was an expert in network design and development at the time. But, any port in a storm is better than not working.
I had a new boss that let me figure it all out, i.e., he valued experience, even if not directly related. Then he resigned for a better position. The second new boss didn't think old guys were worth anything. At one point during a meeting he said, and I quote, "Why should we listen to you? You're retiring soon." Then he quit too. The third boss was another old guy. He let me do what was needed to get the project complete. As far as I know, it's still running.
11 years ago I retired at 65, and am now completely obsolete.
In my opinion, there's two sides to ageism. One, if the old guy (that's a gender neutral term if anyone is offended) keeps his skills current, and is willing to learn, then that guy is a good candidate for whatever job being offered, even if the guys current skills aren't relevant (I stand as a good example). On the other hand, someone who's just waiting to retire and not keeping up with technology, is a waste of time and money.
The guy's family had been grazing cattle on that land since the mid 1800's. The law that created, and gave all that land to the BLM was enacted in the 1930's. I's say the guy had a claim to the land much more senior than the BLM. My brother-in-law's family has been ranching on the same land since 1856. He feels the same as the guy in Nevada. His family has protected that land since long before the government claimed it was theirs.
First some context. I'm 70. I learned HTML, Java, C++ after I turned 50. I learned PHP at 64. The more languages you learn, the easier they are to learn because every language does essentially the same things. So learning a new one only involves learning the differences from the last language you used.
I would say "follow your bliss" is the only way to be happy in your job. I tried management, didn't like it and failed; not because I was doing a bad job but because my heart wasn't in the job. So, I found a programming job when I was 56. It didn't pay as much money, but it I liked doing it, and kept the job until I retired; getting outstanding reviews every year.
Number6.2 reasons are wrong.
1. Nobody is old who believes they're young. Granted one doesn't has as much energy, but that's what coffee (or your favorite stimulant is for).
2. Expensive is relative. As long as you get enough to support yourself and your family, plus a little to save, you're earning enough. By the way, I have a CS Masters also and 35 years experience, and was used to earning 6 figures. So going to a salary less than half what I had been earning was difficult, but, it wasn't impossible.
3. Knowing all the tricks and calling your manager on it, is just an excuse to be rude. One of my managers in my last job was one of those assholes. I just kept a copy of the book "How to Work for a Jerk" displayed prominently on my desk. He didn't last long. When I finally had enough (He called me a liar to my face at a staff meeting), I followed the "Open door policy," most enterprises support, all the way to the top (in my case the Chief Justice). The investigation that followed vindicated me and cost him his job.
So keep on trucking, and doing what you like best, i.e. Follow you bliss.
"Now, granted the price will necessarily be higher, and that's where the main objection from people living out in the rural area comes from."
I live in a rural area. I'd be glad to get anything faster than dial-up, even if it cost more.
The real problem, as you say, is the local telco's. In New Mexico, where I live, the local telco was ordered by the State to spend some $270 million to bring broadband to rural area's. Just 2 months ago, I got a big $20 refund because they didn't.
Whenever I ask, I always get the same answer, "That's next on our list." HA! I've been asking for 8 years now.
Maybe when our exchange is moved or bought by the Apaches, something will happen. The Apaches at least say their goal is broadband to all the local tribes (and I live within the boundaries of a reservation).
Marty
When my wife of 23 years and I got engaged, we went to a precious stone merchant where we bought our birth stones. We then had them set into a custom made engagement ring. The cost was about the same and the ring a lot more personal.
Birthstones can be viewed at http://www.gems4friends.com/birthstones.html".
Of course, if your birthday in in April and her's is in May you're going to spend a lot more than we did.
At Digital Equipment (DEC) there was an explicit two track promotion system. The managerial track, and the technical track. Managers managed and engineers did engineering. There were equivalent salary ranges all the way up to vice president/senior corporate consultant engineer.
Peace
Marty
A good friend of mine is an audiologist, and getting quite deaf. He has those state of the art hearing aids. His have three settings for the filters. Each one has a different set of audio ranges being filtered. It was quite interesting when he first got them. We'd be sitting talking, outside at a sidewalk cafe, and he'd stop, and change the setting. Seems that talking outside has different filter requirements than inside.
The thing that amazes me about these new aids is how small they are. Unless you look very cafefully, and notice the tiny little posts sticking out of his ears, the aids are undetectable.
He was one of the founders of a hearing aid company that first brought out aids with audio filters.
Peace
Msarty
coldtone wrote, "Lets look at how a house is built, is all of the time spent in spec and design. Do they write a document outlining how the tub will be installed in the top floor bedroom? No, they provided a picture of what they want. (Detailed mind you, but still is just a picture.) From that the construction company builds it. The builders never get a step by step checklist."
Wrong. For a house designed by an architect (as opposed to one designed by a builder or "shudder" a developer) the vast majority of time is spent in the design and developing detailed lists of every piece of hardware, cabinets, doors, windows, etc. in the whole place. True enough, the builder isn't told how to install a tub, but, he damn sure better use the exact tub from the spec list located exactly where the drawing says it should go.
As for builder or developer designed houses, they are designed for ease of construction and conservation of building material. The design process may be just as arduous as for an architect designed house. The difference? The builder/developer re-uses the same set of design documents for each house built. Thus the apparent lack of design and specification.
Remember, the builder knows how to build, just as a programmer knows how to program. Telling either how to do the job is useless. On the other hand, telling them what to do is very much necessary.
Peace
Marty
We created an electronic filing system (Test system here) that's been in continuous use since March 1, 1999 for all criminal and juvenile cases in North Western New Mexico. I wrote a goodly chuck of the code.
And we were not the first. There are quite a few systems in use around the country.
The unique part of the Michigan system is the teleconferencing ability. And that's an even older idea.
Peace,
Marty Halvorson
New Mexico Supreme Court
Judicial Information Division
I'm an author of an XML standard being used by the court systems in several states, and under development in several others.
I say that standards for describing physical characteristics are important. In the courts and criminal justice arena being able to exchange information regarding suspected criminals and criminal activities is quite important, e.g., a serial killer moving from state to state.
Describing cultural and psychological characteristice may be a stretch. But, there is a standard dictionary for many of those terms and so, perhaps, a value in encoding those terms.
XML is for the exchange of information between two dissimilar systems. If an agreement can be reached as to what information is worth exchanging, then it seems to me that enclosing that information in standard tags is worthwhile.
Peace
Marty
12-13 years ago, or so, Lawrence Livermore Labs was playing with some really powerful lasers in the pursuit of sustainable fusion energy. At the time, they had the most powerful laser in the world. Many of the technologies required to create and focus multiple streams of laser light came out of those experiments.
Peace,
Marty Halvorson
Yeah, I remember the Homebrew Computer club. Lots of the engineers at the mainframe computer company I worked for in Silicon Valley went. I went a couple of times. Couldn't stand the emphasis on hardware and bit twiddling, even though I was a bit twiddler at work. I also worked for MITS, the Altair folks. I sold my Altair for $1,200, including the teletype with reader/punch and cassette player, in 1982. I agree, Silicon Valley was only one of a multitude of places (most of which were west of the Mississippi) where the PC was invented. MITS, for example, was in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Gates and company also started in Albuquerque. I can't imagine why they wanted to move someplace where the sun doesn't shine. Peace
Nope, you're wrong. I was a part of the ANSI committee that created Fiber Channel. It came from IBM, not Apple. The project was started, in the late '80s, 1988 ISTR.
Peace
Marty
I was my companies representative to the ANSI standard committee that wrote the Fiber Channel specification at time of it's creation. Fiber Channel wasn't quite created "to excel at the streaming of data," although that was an important consideration. That was the design philosophy of HIPPI (High Performance Parallel Interface), another standard being written by the same committee at that time. The HIPPI explicit expression was create a "firehose for data." A goal HIPPI excelled in from the start (less than 2% of total bandwidth (800Mbs) was consumed by other than data). Fiber Channel was designed to allow very high data rates from dedicated devices. Many control maechanisms were included to allow this. That effort also made Fiber Channel slow to start and switch. Fiber Channel owes much to IBM's ideas of main frame computer I/O channels being very high throughput even if slow to start. In fact, the original proposal came from IBM. One of the things they wanted to get out of making it a standard was cheap commodity disks. Peace
Marty
It's usually the case, always for ANSI, that membership and participation in a standards setting organization is voluntary. I.e., he volunteered. Frequently members come from other organizations (either professional, not for profit, or commercial) with an interest in the standard being prepared. Peace Marty
Check out the New Mexico Judiciary site.
I worked for a research and development group about 15 years ago. One of our areas of research was frame rates. We discovered that frame rates are a function of age, genetics, ambient light, and a number of other smaller effects. The highest rate we saw before fusion was 78 fps. Some don't see flicker at rates as low as 55 fps. Everyone saw flicker at 50 fps.
Well I guess it's time to come out of the closet. I'm 59 and still coding.
I've been the victim of age discrimination. It's what happens when employers start looking for specific skills rather than attitudes, and, more important, aptitude.
I left a National Laboratory where I was a staff member (a scientist) doing research on very high speed networks when the project I worked on ran out of money. It took me 8 months to find a new job. I went on many interviews with not one job offer. Then I shaved my beard (gray it was), the first interview I went on resulted in my current job.
The important thing, I'd say, if you want to keep coding is stay current and continue to learn. I learned Unix in my 40's, C++ in my early 50's, and right now I'm in the middle of Java and XML (I am the principal author of the Court Filing XML Standard). If you're not willing to change and continue to learn then you won't last long enough to really learn how to write code that actually does what you think it will, i.e., it works.
Peace
Marty
The axle is the gadget without which the wheel would be pretty useless. Think long cylinders used to move rocks to build the pyramids. How many long cylinders do you need to get to work?
It's only important if you intend to someday become a consultant and are willing to take full legal responsibility for your actions.
Taking the test now when all that information is fresh in your mind is an advantage.