Slashdot Mirror
Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?
hardDiamond asks: "I'm going to get engaged. I know my 4 C's. I know I'm going to get screwed by the jeweller, but that's okay: after all, a diamond engagement ring is a time-honoured tradition... NOT. Having checked out the goods, looked for the flaws, I found the biggest one of all. Diamond engagement rings are the creation of a well orchestrated advertising campaign for most of the last century - according to this article.
Would you buy one for the love of your life? I know my girlfriend would love a diamond, but ethically I have my doubts. Diseased-miners, child slave labour, cartel inflated prices... and as if that wasn't enough, diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price. So what have my fellow slashdotters done with regards to engagement rings? What's a good substitute for diamonds? My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one." I've never even thought about questioning such a time honored tradition, but now I'm curious. Have any of you looked at the issues surrounding diamonds and found them wanting? What alternatives have you found and were they acceptable?
After researching this a bit, one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence. Such diamonds, for want of a better term, have been named "conflict diamonds". For those of you interested in following up on this subject, here are a few more links:
Fatal TransactionsFor those of you who have a subscription to Science News, the cover story, this month, deals with this issue as well.
Conflict Diamonds: Sanctions and War
The Campaign to Eliminate Conflict Diamonds
The Kimberly Process, which will attempt to track diamonds to their origin. This is to begin in November.
Diamonds - Are They Really Worth the Cost?
Do you love her? If so, then they're worth the cost.
NO CARRIER
There are none. The girlfriend will be bombarded w/her friends pissing her off w/the fact that she doesn't have one, and how dare her fiance not buy one for her.
My gf's brother just got engaged. His fiance announced this to my gf by saying, "here's mine, where's yours?"
Whether or not this is obnoxious is not the point. Her friends are going to do much the same.
Time honored is true, but expected is more the reality.
Are you SURE that you're not just trying to weasel out of the ring ? :) While you do have some valid concerns, it is a tradition. Traditions don't have to make sense... that's why they're traditions. Plus, your fiance might wonder if you DON'T give her one. Just cough up the cash and best of luck to you both.
Opals are always a nice stone and do have a decent resale value. Of course they're rather hard to find in the US.
Slashdot readers?
Girlfriends?
Marriage?
This has to be some sort of hoax. Is it April already?
"Moderate drinking can help prevent amputated limbs" -- Abigail Zuger, NYTimes, 12/31/02
Seriously... but make sure she's cool with it first. It's utilitarian, it's fun, and if you're as big a geek as I am, it's meaningful. I've given one myself to seal an engagement, and she was happy with it. The problem is, it's harder to get back when you break it off down the road. hehe...
A proposal means you're asking her to dedicate the rest of her life to you, and yours to her. Give her what she really, really wants (a diamond). An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).
They always lose out jocks and other whole people.
one of the key facts to surface is that 2-4.5% of diamond sales will go to finance terrorism or forms of violence
What percentage of gas sales do you think finance terrorism? Money goes from our hands to the gas companies to oil companies in the Mid-East to (possibly) terrorist organizations. Probably true about many other products as well...
Nike. Just jew it.
I bought my wife's engagement ring from a wholeseller. They're tough to get in with, but if you do a little research and pull it off, you can get a decent sized diamond for literally half the price a "real" jeweler would charge. I got a 1.21 carat for 5 grand. And the problem with the advertising campaign is that it's worked. She may not know the origins of her desire, but you're right, your girlfriend would like a diamond. Almost all of women would. Good luck.
Build up a geek website with a couple of friends, make it popular and propose on the front page a couple of years later.
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
...Propose on the internet... virtual diamonds are oh-so cheap!
Hmmm... dimond engagement ring, or cubic zirconia
and a hot tub. It solves the, "Where's the ring?"
problem and you and your fiancee will have the
piece of mind knowing that you aren't financing
terrorism, while soaking in your new hot tub.
I agree with most of your other points about the disgusting practices used to produce diamonds and market them.
Antique Ring.
I gave my wife a pretty cool engagement ring from an antique jewelry outfit. Sure, it's 2nd hand, but it has the personality and it doesn't get crazy as far as prices go either.
It seems to me that the purpose of this article really isn't to ask a question, but instead to be a bully-pulpit to rally against the DeBeers monopoly. I don't know if "Ask Slashdot" is an appropriate place for this.
As for the tagged on question at the end, have you considered your fiance-to-be's birth stone? My grandmother had a beautiful ruby and silver engagement ring. If you're not looking for a ring, then it really depends on how much a traditionalist your girlfriend is. Just whatever you do, if you're going to skip the ring option, don't try to weasel out with something less than the cost of a diamond ring, or it's likely she'll suspect that money was the real motivation.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
They're really expensive, but are guaranteed not to have the ethical overhead of others. Plus, they have a cool little polar bear laser-etched into the side (very tiny, you have to use a loupe to see it).
They're called Polar Bear Diamonds.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
As if *you* would ever have a girlfriend ;)
BoD
My girlfriend told me not to WASTE our money and instead we spent three crazy weeks in Hawaii AND had money in the bank.
God I love her!
Can we expect a public service advertisement about this too?
aren't rubies and sapphires more rare, worth more than diamonds? we have been fed that diamonds are what 'shows love', but wouldn't a rarer gem do better?
Look, put aside from all the moral issues you might have about it, you will put a very serious dent into your relationship. So, as a word of advice, don't even consider not giving her the ring. It maybe the most ridiculous way to spend a whole lot of money (most men would think this way) but for a woman it is a lot more than just a stone. It is a sign of your total committment to her, your love, etc. So, it is not just a stone.
CZ is the only way to go man. Prettier than diamonds and cheap. Just don't let the low prices persuade to geta ridiculously big ring.
Stick to a carat or so.
Insert witty sig here.
Great, i fully expect the bush administration to put out new commercials linking diamond sales to terrorism and urging all "true" americans to stay clear of them. I mean they did the same thing with pot without one proven link between marijuana sales and terrorist organizations.
--aiee
My better half wasn't fussed on a diamond at all, so her ring is an amethyst. Not sure what the US is like, but in good old Blighty it's quite common for "alternative" stones to be the main setting in a ring.
Basically, go round the jewellers and try to ignore prices and wait until you've really found one you like. Took us about a month of constant seraching and we ended up with one that wasn't massively expensive but that we both thought was beautiful.
Love isn't measured in pounds/dollars.
Goblin
It's all fun and games until a 200' robot dinosaur shows up and trashes Neo-Tokyo... Again
as you say, then why not just buy a used one (estate sale, whatever).
Or cubic zirconium; pretty hard to tell from diamond without a loupe
John 17:20
but if you want to learn about them, go here: http://www.pricescope.com/tutorial.asp
and the vendor I bought mine from, who also has lots of great info, can be found here: www.goodoldgold.com
sims... do google searches on ascher and a search on www.diamondtalk.com forums for "simulants" as long as she 'knows' its a sim, more power to ya...
If she floats, she's a witch.
The obvious thing to me is to look for other gem stones that don't have such a dubious cartel infrastucture around them. My wife has a diamond ring but I'm sure she would have been happy with a saffire if I had refused to by a diamond for the reasons you gave - she is ware of "industry" but still likes diamonds none the less.
Many of the Royal wedding engaement rings don't use a single diamond as the centre stone but have used others like Ruby's and emeralds instead - some also have diamonds a "support" stones but you could drop that.
Your other alternative is not to go with a gem stone ring at all. Quite a few of my married friends only have wedding rings. Not because they were marring cheap guys but some for the reasons you cite. In these cases they have much more detailed metal work on the wedding band than the traditional gold band.
Pawn Shop.
This is where my wife's engagement/wedding band comes from and it worked out really well for both of us.
You have to be selective though. Don't just buy any ring, find one you know she'll like. Maybe go shopping with her at a real jewelry store and let her pick a few.
After you know what she likes, go to a few pawn shops and find one that is similiar. Then take it to a jeweler and have them clean it. They will also sell you a nice new box to put it in.
Final piece of advice, never ever admit that that is where you got it. If anyone asks say it's not important, just so long as your sweetie is happy.
Cheers!
You spend ~$2k for a machine that crunches numbers and lets you escape into a virtual fantasy world for a few hours a day. The machine is outdated and depreciated when you buy it, and it just gets worse as time goes by.
The diamond on her finger reminds her of the moment she fell in love with you. The good times you share with her, and her undying devotion to you.
Do it for her! Put a price on how it will make her feel. If she understands how you feel about making the purchase... ALL THE MORE REASON TO DO IT FOR HER... show her you understand how she feels.
The saphire was the traditional engagement ring until DeBeers and Hollywood sold the world on "A diamond is a girl's best friend" in the 30's. I bought my wife a big saphire with two small, high quality diamonds on the side. It is way nicer than a diamond ring, my wife loves it. I didn't save any money, but at least the saphire cartel doesn't rule the world like DeBeers does.
If you look around, there are many women who wear the saphires. Many women like my wife's ring. It is more unique and I didn't feel like I got screwed for the very reasons you describe in your post.
Do you value her? [Yes.] Does she want a diamond? [Yes.] Will her having a diamond make your life better? [Yes, if she marries you.] Then get her a diamond. That's all that really matters. It's not a financial investment, it's an investment in happiness and worth far more than it's price in dollars.
Bryan Baskin
You know the one... "Terrorists are bad..., If you've bought a diamond, you're funding them."
Oh wait, they only have those to discourage businesses that don't make the gov't money...
if you don't spring for a diamond, you're a cheap bastard. Ah, the power of marketing.
Do your research, deal with someone intelligent. Your wife to be would probaly have an extra $5k on her wedding or in her bank account then on her finger.
Buy a slightly yellower, with small inclusions diamond, you can't see the difference, but they are significantly cheaper. You do want a good cut, it will catch the light and nobody will know the difference.
(Small inclusions can't be seen unaided, a good jeweler will even admit this)
There is a single company, De Beers, which apparently owns a tremendous percentage of the world's diamond supply, and, I have heard, artificially props up the price by heavily restricting what goes out into the world.
From what I heard, if it wasn't for this company strangling the market, diamonds would be worth MUCH MUCH less than they are currently.
I guess in recent years, diamonds have been discovered to be much more plentiful than we thought.
While diamonds may have a low resale value, that's not a critical point. Are you planning on selling this diamond any time soon? No. If you're fortunate enough you may have a better option, see if your grandmother's (or great grandmother's) engagement ring is in the family and available. That's both sensible and heart-touching.
Get her a box of Penguin mints from Thinkgeek and tell her to shut the fuck up.
oh, the mind of a woman.
Do you love her? If so, then they're worth the cost
About manufactured diamonds and their history.
currently Gemesis is America's primary manufacturer. They are building a $25m factory for making better/ different colored diamonds. Currently they can make yellow ones, though the show showed clear, and fanciful colored ones (in testing it seems).
They are "real" diamonds, pretty much seeded carbon crystal. Any gemologist can likely tell you they are real diamond, albeit manufactured. AFAIK the cost is a little higher, if not compriable for now.
My fiancee was totally cool with the idea of another kind of stone, or with a fake. Show your girl some pictures of the kids from the mines, you'd be surprised how receptive she gets.
Get a GIANT phoney and she can still brag/lie to her family/friends and secretly feel morally superior.
There was a good piece about this on NPR about ;) btw: Cubit Zirconia??
2 months ago and the reccomendation was this; use
the internet to shop around as much as possible
to find the best deal. The diamond industry is
hurting because of the internet and the flood of
blood (conflict) diamonds in the market.
Be patient and find the best deal, also go to
antique stores in the country and pawn shops
(she'll never know)
serioiusly: I owuldnt worry about funding
terrrorism... the CIA has that covered
My wife and I both decided not to get a diamond for our wedding or engagement rings. She's cool and smart and not so caught up in the DeBeers propaganda that she wanted to be a part of the diamond trade. I was just relieved not to have to waste so much money on a shiny rock.
When people ask us why we don't have a diamond, we tell them that we used the money for the downpayment on a house. That seems to shut them up.
I gave one to her... 1/3 ct, near-flawless (VVS2), I-colored stone... but the color isn't yellow, it's grey. When put next to similar, yellow-trended diamonds, it looks great.
:)
My advice is to buy the stone loose, and pay a good jewler to put it on a ring. Always make sure you can inspect the stone before you commit the money.
Overall, the final ring with the wedding bands looks really nice, and believe me, she let me know it was worth buying it for her
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Instead of "investing" two months salary in a tiny diamond, why not use that money for a superb honeymoon? That is something you both can enjoy. For example, if you have $20M you might be able to visit Space Station Alpha. ;-)
If she just wants the ring, then perhaps she is a gold digger.
cpeterso
Seriously. If you can't talk to each other about this, then you are fools to even consider marriage. If you would rather get /. opinions on this than talk it over with the gf, then you aren't ready.
Infuriate left and right
it used to be tradition for every white family to have (and inherit) a family of black slaves.
nowadays, even the suggestion of such a thing disgusts many people.
times change. traditions change. break the mould, don't get stuck in it.
We did simple silver bands but we allready had reputations for eccentricity.
Honestly this is a good litmus for idetifying who is worth having at your wedding and who is better off being left wondering where their invitation is. Those that respect your relationship will be more concerned with helping you through the hell that is wedding planning. The rest can politely be told where to stick it.
'nuff said.
Diamonds are semi-precious stones.
My ring is from TeNo, stainless steel jewelry.
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I went through a similar debate (mostly around the stupidity of spending that kind of money) when I was getting engaged. A friend told me simple, sound advice, mainly; get the damn ring and make it a good one - no matter what your girlfriend says, she wants a diamond ring.
What's the first thing everyone will ask after she mentions she's engaged? That's right - let me see the ring. If you get her a diamond flake or something else, she'll feel shitty about it everytime and take it out on you.
My brother gave his fiancee a CZ. The engagement didn't last long (probably not related to the knock-off $200 ring, but who knows?!)
I think you need to find another reason to put off long term commitment, instead of diamonds are a secret plan to fund terrorists.
How about just say that weddings are bad for the environment and that half of all marriages end in divorce anyways.
Or if you really are serious about this, how about forgoing ALL civil methods of proposal: just drag her back to your house by her hair and get her pregnent, trust me it works like a charm and you'll save hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Marriage is all about what past events a partner can bring up in a fight in order to force the other to admit defeat.
...
...
... it's not even a diamond.
Example:
Wife: Why didn't you take out the garbage?
Husband: I was in a hurry, couldn't you do it for once?
Wife: For once?!?! Let me tell you what I have to do
and so on until
Wife: And what about this damn engagement ring
At this point the husband has lost.
So, buy the diamond, don't sleep around and you may win a fight now and then.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
You're getting married, and you'r worried that diamonds are a big scam?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
But I can't decide what my reaction should be:
Simple...buy Canadian Diamonds.
"better ways of doing things eventually just replace the inferior things" - Linus Torvalds 09-08-07
My suggestion is that you buy your girlfriend a cubic zirconium ring, it looks the same to an untrained eye. Just because its cheaper doesn't mean get it bigger... then there will more eyes.
Next, explain this to your girlfriend. Don't try to pass it off to her, because it won't work. She's going to show it to her friends, and one of them is going to say "Honey, that's a zirconium. I've gotten three of them in my life." Or something like that.
She might even find it touching how you care about these people and are willing to buck "tradition" to show it. Explain that you're getting the cubic zirconium to keep up appearances, and then come up with something to make up for it. (Thinking about it, while you're bucking tradition, you could help pay for a bigger wedding...)
Your other choice is to talk it over with her first. Sure, it will take away the spontaniety of the whole "popping the question" thing, but it will avoid much grief on both your parts if she's not going to be happy with a cubic zirconium ring, or doesn't understand why you worry about "those grubby, leeching third-worlders". She's the only one to tell you for certain what an acceptable substitute would be.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Well, if people weren't willing to hand over tons of cash to overpay for somebody else's marketing campaign then more of the worthless a$$holes of the world would be asking us for change on the street instead of designing crass public art.
Really, now: Don't pretend you've got a brain and use it if you're going to hit its snooze button every time a Big Lie comes along.
Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
My Dad got my Mom a pair of the original Advent speakers instead of an engagement ring over 30 years ago.
(And they still have and use those speakers.. some of the best I've ever heard.)
According to The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond, diamonds are a form of self-destructive competion for mates.
It's a similar situation to male peacock's tail feathers, which are obtrusive and make it difficult to walk around. A female, upon seeing such a male, will see that the bird has survived so far despite this massive tail that hinders its movements. Obviously it might be superior to a peacock that did not have such large tail-feathers, since that one did not have such a hurdle to go through. Sort of like if you see a skier with one leg, and a skier with two legs skiing down the mountain, you may assume the skier with one leg is a better skier, even though both are doing essentially the same thing.
So when you get a diamond, you are sending a signal that you can afford to spend money and still survive. The beautify of it is an extra. You might accomplish the same thing by wasting money in other ways as well.
This is Jared's speculation in this book. I'm not sure if I buy it, but it's an interesting theory anyway.
For all those doubting whether diamonds are worth it, please see this picture. You will learn to appreciate diamonds :-)
S.t.e.v.e.
Regardless of what ethics you personally hold, the fact is that in our present culture the diamond ring is one of the penultimate status symbols for women. Regardless of what a woman says, if her man doesn't give her the best color/carat/cut/clarity that he can afford without going bankrupt, the she will carry a secret nugget of resentment for as long as the relationship will last.
You have been warned...
"I'm making perfect sense, you're just not keeping up."
Diamonds are a jewel that have always been sought after and have adorned crown jewels for ages (for example the Kohinoor Diamond that the British stole from India is in the British Royal Crown).
...
Diamonds are beautiful; hence, they do naturally make a good present to your loved one. The fact that they have been made engagement rings by a marketing campaign is no different from the fact that Christmas and Santa Claus have been commodotized by various marketing campaigns.
The fact of the matter is that the clothese we wear, our attitudes towards things etc, etc, etc are all shaped by media around us.
So, this is what is in now - diamonds are appreciated by women, so, naturally guys will buy them for girls
If it really bothers you that much, maybe she would be happy with an imitation diamond. She still gets the ring to show to her friends and to stand as... a symbol of commitment or what have you. With the money you save, spring for a really great honeymoon, or figure out some other way to spend the money that's memorable and perhaps more genuine then the ring. Then again, women are irrational and none of the above is likely to work. :)
Buy a used diamond get a new ring for it and voila, you're the hero.
Later,
Phil
well if she loves you, that means allowing you to maintain your ethics, which in this case may mean no diamonds.
*gasp* some people actually buy plain gold bands for their symbols of unity.
of course I prefer titanium or titanium, but gold or silver or platinum is good too.
do what you believe in. if your wife to be can't handle that, you're in for bad times down the road.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
Unless your girlfriend is likely to buy into any of this, it's a battle you don't even want to bring up.
The one alternative is to (carefully) ask her if she would like to have a plain wedding band for the sake of not being ostentacious. You have to do this carefully, however, so it will not look like you're just a cheap bastard.
Failing that (and you probably will), take a visit to your local city's jewelry district. I got my wife's good sized diamond at about 1/3 the price of a jeweler. In particular I went to the jewelrly district in Los Angeles. The prices are awesome.
However, they will rip you off if you give them half a chance. Either go to someone who is recommended to you, or bring along someone who is knowledgeable. Someone who is good at negotiation doesn't hurt, either.
If you do end up going to a normal store (or God help you, the mall), don't be afraid to ask for a discount. If you're getting into high triple digits or quadruple digit dollars, they WILL give you a discount. All you have to do is ask.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
A good account of the state of the art two years ago can be found in the transcript of a NOVA show on diamond synthesis: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2703diamo nd.html
...in a tastefull platinum setting.
But what she really wants in a downpayment on a house.
You have some choices; you can buy gold wedding bands made from gold mined in Wales; no slave labor in Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysil iogogogoch methinks.
You can buy antique diamond rings; you will then not be supporting the modern diamond trade, and will also have something that has a determinable resale value for when you need to take back control of Slashdot.
Ethical / fair trading has entered into the cocoa and coffee sectors, but has yet to penetrate the diamond mining industry. This may be the way forward to stop the pernicious influence of the current buying and selling structure on the countries blessed with deposits. Until then, you have to either do without, or go antique to keep your wife's hands clean (literally).
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
I didn't follow your links for all of the gory details. The point is that on the fortieth time you go to explain why ethics and high morals were more important than the love of your life (and why she didn't get that diamond ring), you aren't going to recall them very well either.
There is ugliness everywhere in the world if you look for it.
As many married (yes I contend that there are many) Slashdotters will tell you, no matter what kind of principles you may wish to uphold, your soon-to-be-fiance will expect a diamond. So why don't you go dig up your own?
Yes, you're going to get screwed if you go to a traditional retail jewelry store. The markups are quite high. If you know enough about diamonds to recognize the 4C's yourself with an eye loop, go to a pawn shop that has a wide selection. They will be much lower in cost. If you can't find the exact ring you want, but have found one that has the jewel you want, buy it and take it to a repair shop. They will usually do customizations.
People die or get divorced all the time. If it's portable and has some value, sooner or later it will end up at a pawn shop.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Well, unless you have a minor surgery performed. Our neighbors, instead of wedding rings, got wedding tattoos. It really is the coolest thing. My wife and I are going to do the same on our anniversary. :) And that'll be one less thing for her to have to deal with on her normal female emotional roller coaster. No offense to the ladies here; it's just my experience.
It can never be lost. It doesn't ever need adjusted really, maybe touched up. And you can never just take it off, so you'll never have to be tempted.
and our wedding bands have diamonds in them. If you are very concerned about 'artificially expensive' diamonds then don't buy them; if you ask the dealer and they are reluctant to give you the diamond's history then you don't need to buy from them. If they have certifications on the diamond; the research them - and don't buy any kind of insurance on the diamonds themselves they are easily replaced. I found out what we paid for was not our diamonds; but our settings - which was fine everything was 14K gold. When her wedding band needed a size change she lost two of the several tiny diamonds; the store replaced them for free.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
marriage is for the unenlightened.
However, the marketing gimmick is the key. If the person you want wants a diamond, then you pretty much have to buy one. This is an issue just like any other in a relationship. If the money is not they're to buy one, and the person is willing to break off the relationship, I think that would be a harbinger of things to come.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
i certainly appreciate the points that are made about how diamonds are mined and the impact on the regions that mine them.
but i bet if the diamond cost $45 and still had the same emotional impact, the issue wouldn't really come up.
(that said, i saw a cool site on the web once that would take an ekg from you or your loved one and inscribe on the inside of a plain platinum, gold or silver band. pretty neat. if i find the link, i'll post it.)
go get it
So get her one with a real *rare* stone: A ruby or a sapphire.
"I helped kill a judge..."
"I helped buy Explosives..."
"I helped buy a gun..."
"I was just having fun"
"I was just tring to get laid"
"I was Just getting Married"
*annoucer voice* "If you buy dimonds, you support terrorism"
"My Fiance, my rules..."
fade to black
Is it just me or is the hipocricy disturbing?
Americans could not be more self absorbed if they were made of equal parts water and paper towel. -Dennis Miller
I've had to purchase these things too many times and here's my advice:
If you don't have cash to burn -
1. Flaws are great if they can be covered by the prongs.
2. Crappy color looks better in a gold setting.
3. Choose size AND high flouresants (sp) over everything except naked eye flaws.
At the end of the day these things are friggin' worthless bits of highly compressed coal. So its the reactions of your wife's shallow and empty friends where you get your real money's worth... nothing pisses then off, and makes you look better than size and sparkle. Everything else is bullshit unless you've got cash to burn. In that case here's different advice.... Go for quality over size. If the word, economy or whatever goes to pot a quality stone will get you safe passage.
And other horrible things that they brought to the world. The Polar bear diamonds is the best way. There is _no_ other place other than Canada to really get diamonds. deBeers runs the show.
You could try Alexandrite. It is one of the most truly rare gems. (maybe THE most rare) And it changes colors, supposedly.
Tradition? Gimme a friggin break. The US is too young to have traditions, kerr-rrrist. Women and diamond rings remind me of that movie, "The Gods Must be Crazy", where the natives find an empty Coke bottle and worship it as some kind of..umm...err...worshipped item. Seriously, women are like little monkeys when they see rings, but y'know, all it is, is a friggin rock attached to some shiny metal. "Oohh, look at shi-nee met-tal...perty, ain't it". Geez. Materialistic women need to get with reality and stop the pretentious b.s. If you love someone, it'll be in yer heart, not on a f@!*ckin finger. Leave the symbols to the symbol-minded (as a Carlinist I couldn't resist that one!). If you can't afford her, she's not worth it.
My wife is Japanese, and we didn't have to go through ANY of this lame b.s. We got married in Japan without a stadium-sized crowd and did a tea ceremony. There were no "trinkets" exchanged, only love expressed through ACTION. Now I'm all for diamond rings as a gift, or to show appreciation, but if a woman requires a ring for engagement - if it takes a manmade little rock and metal craft to make her smile, then her heart is in the wrong place.
"debeers" - diamonds aren't overly rare, they are expensive due to their monopoly. i've had a problem with this for some time and in fact have boycotted diamonds for my entire 34 year life - i bought my wife her current diamond only after 6 years of marriage cuz i found one at a jewelry store that was going out of business so i got a "relatively" good deal
mas cerveza, por favor politically incorrect stu
... how can you resist the commercials?
;)
You know... it has the swelling music and the shadows and stuff.
If a diamond ring is good enough for a shadow lady, why isn't it good enough for yours?!
"PC Load Letter? What the $@#% does that mean?!"
Hell, *she* might even believe it, but if you proceed not go get her one she will hold it against you the rest of her life. She'll show her mom and her friends the ring and get repeated "where's the rock, honey?" responses. When she's forty and has divorced you (at least party due to her deep-seated, semi-subconsious rage), she will tell her other single friends about you and they will laugh "Sex In The City"-style.
We all know that buying diamonds just enriches the DeBeers company and furthers their monopoly. We all know that it's a big scam. We all know we're tossing our money away on an essentially useless item which could become a commodity at any time. None of this matters.
Go to dirtcheapdiamonds.com or a trusted non-mall jeweler and buy the goddamn diamond. There's no way that the few thousand dollars you'd save would be worth the years of misery you'd be setting yourself up for.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
http://canadian-diamonds.theshoppe.com/canadian_di amond_mining.htm
to quote: Canadian diamonds treasured by the worlds diamond experts. Sought after for their incredible beauty and brilliance. Mined in accordance to the highest ethical standards.
I believe everything I read on the Internet, of course, but hey, worth a look - especially if you want to REALLY surprise her with the kneeling and the asking and the whatnot.
I am a leaf on the wind
Seeing as how I had no idea how to pick a ring, I bought a $20 engagement ring for my wife. When I proposed I gave it to her and told her it was a symbol and that we could pick the ring of her choice for her. She refused and said she didn't want any other ring. She said that was the ring I gave to her and it was the most beautiful ring in the world.
Kimberlite (the rock you find diamonds in) is plentiful, as are diamonds. More importantly, gemstone diamonds are very common as well. And yes, the price is artifically high. The world is not "running out" of diamonds like its running out of, say, oil. But so what. Come on in - the waters fine. You G. will love you forever. So suck it up.
Oi, I'm about to leave work and don't have the time to find the source of these facts online, but it has been statistically shown that 50% of all diamond sales account for the killing of a child.
I mean, how can you justify death simply for tradition? My wife is as proud of her ruby ring, as her friends are jealous (once they became aware that rubies are more valuable than diamonds).
I wouldn't have bought a diamond, if I'd had to. I have problems with them, and my wife hates them. Her opinion is "don't waste that much cash on a stupid stone!"
I love her.
Better than diamonds or opals are emeralds.
Emeralds are actually more rare than diamonds, and so are worth more.
"All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening."
- Alexandar Woolcot
I'm not sure why, but my gf just wants one.. and soemtimes i feel as if she thinks that it is more important than the whole "getting engaged" thing. Bit of a worry when a lump of rock becomes more than what it represents....
At least that is the guideline that DeBeers used to advertise. For someone making 50k a year, that would be about $8,000 after tax. Perfectly reasonable.
Don't get suckered. Hopefully your fiance is as reasonable as you.
Premarital sex was not invented in the 1960s, and has in fact been around ever since just before the first marriage. Of course, back in the good old days, a good girl would never have sex before wedlock. However, some were willing to bend the rules once they were engaged. So, men quickly discovered that you could ask a woman to marry you, have sex with her, and then break off the engagement.
Up until 1935, this was considered an actionable tort in 47 of the 48 states. A woman who was deceived in this way could sue for the value of her lost virginity and subsequent difficulty in acquiring a husband. State legislatures passed laws against these suits in the 1930s and 1940s.
So, after this ability was removed, women needed a new way to ensure that a man proposing marriage really meant it. It became social custom that a man asking for marriage would post a performance bond equivalent to about twice his monthly salary. This bond would be forfeitable upon his breaking off of the engagement, but returnable if she broke off the engagement. This 'bond' was implemented as a diamond ring, because it was an easy way to, er, 'crystalize' two months of his salary in an easy-to-handle package.
In essence, the engagement ring is a private reimplementation of a canceled government policy.
My wife and I simply wore our wedding bands on our right hand before we were married. This is apparently a tradition in parts of Europe. In addition to not requiring diamonds, both of you get a token to mark you engagement which is rather nice.
If you really feel you need a diamond, you might consider buying from Canada. They do all the processing there and don't sell to the cartel so while you are supporting the rediculous pricing that leads to the problems related to diamonds, at least your diamond wouldn't be bloody.
A Claddagh is a traditional Irish design: hands supporting a heart topped by a crown. Depending on how it is worn (left hand / right hand, heart or crown "worn in"), it can specify friendship to engagement to marriage.
There are many, many jewelers and artists who offer claddaghs, so you're sure to find one that will suit style and budget. As it happened, we chose a simple rose-gold claddagh from MacManus and Sons.
Good luck, hope this helps, and congrats!
-ZK-
Its not the size that matters, but how well it cuts through glass. :-)
Or am I being hopelessly naive somehow? (it wouldn't be the first time
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
The long-standing tradition of a diamond engagement ring was manufactured in 1939. Prior to that, mostly royalty indulged in the idea. It was only after the big diamond discoveries in South Africa caused diamond prices to plummet that DeBeers used an advertising campaign to popularize the rings.
I recommend a good opal ring. Beware of manufactured opal (though it's usually more spectacular than natural opal), and beware of a honey-orange colored opal that may have been colored artificially using a particle beam and may actually be radioactive!
Get used to it, this is one of many comprimises your gonna have to suck up.
love is just extroverted narcissism
(I was at a family reunion this weekend, and was (as usual) pleasantly suprised at how much more left-wing my cousins are)
I'd sit down with the fiance-to-be and say "I want to give you a diamond, but the abuses behind diamond cartels are pretty nasty. So, you can have a diamond, or you can have something else that costs the same and can be just as ornamental. I've already got the money set aside."
Why not get a custom made ring from a local jeweler/Artist? A major cost (and value) in the ring is the artistry/work in making the ring and setting, and if you have a nice setting, you can have an impressive ring with a smaller stone. And it probably has more resale value. Supporting local/struggling artists is always nice, and you get great value for money.
http://www.moissanitejewelry.com/
These were originally fairly rare but are now a sideline of blue LED manufacture (high geek-quotient). Little bit softer than diamond but higher index of refraction ( more sparkle ) and much much cheaper...
Titanium worked for me and represented all the facets of my relationship that I wanted incorporated the presentation of a ring. Choose your metal, chose your stone. Make it meaningful and that is all you need (but $$$$ spent don't hurt your case either). Sorry for the sappiness but after 7 years its all I have.
When I proposed to my fiancee a couple months ago, I didn't have a ring at all. We joked that she was getting a $300,000 ring, the house we were in the process of contracting to be built. And she was just fine with this. However, a ring is expected by a lot of people. And she did want one to show off. Plus we had the perfect idea. She had her grandmother's ring, which had 3 diamonds in a rather ugly setting (everyone agrees on this, even her mother). We had it reset in a platinum and gold setting for a relatively reasonable cost. And it's better than any ring I could have bought her.
.95 instead of 1.
You can always get another stone as well. There is no rule that says it has to be a diamond. The first engagement ring I bought, several years ago, was a created sapphire. There are many semi-precious stones out there that are quite beautiful. Depending on your girlfriend's preferences, you may have a lot of options.
Having said that, if she wants a diamond, then it's worth it to get it. Just keep in mind that you don't need an internally flawless diamond. A VVS1 or 2 will do just fine, and a VS1 or 2 is going to be OK too. As you have noted, diamonds really don't have a resale value, and how many people are going to be looking at it through a scppe after you purchase it? Same goes for color. Get a G-H, or F. And as for the carats, you'll pay a bit less if you stay just under the round numbers, so
The one thing you really want to make sure is excellent is the cut. This is something you want to be as close to ideal as possible. A friend of mine recently got married, and her well-off husband got her a rather large diamond for her engagement ring. When I looked at it, I was horribly underwhelmed. It was a poor cut, and reflected very little light. It looked flat. And this is not a man that I would have expected to miss the details.
I know you know the 4 Cs, but it's always worth repeating, and elaborating on how to get a better deal using what you know.
-Todd
"The details of my life are quite inconsequential..."
If she insists on having a ring, she's a goldigger.
If her friends pester her for not having a ring, and she then pesters you afterwards, since you're on Slashdot, you're too smart for that kind of broad. Ditch the bitch, then.
It's not flamebait or anything.
But ever since I started to collect stones and read up on stuff, I always thought diamonds are the blandest gem stone.
Then I found out about the crap behind them. DeBeers are IMHO the worst, right up there with the Cocaine Cartels in South America.
They hose the damned things up in Namiba in the sand off-shore by the ton. It's about as rare as gravel.
I'll never get my woman a diamond. If she's that caught up in a ugly stone that a bunch of death peddlers horde, she's not for me.
My wife was also someone who dislikes the diamond cartel. So we found a beautiful stone that really looks good on her. Spent the money on a good setting, and then had 2 diamond flakes (.25 pt) added for accents and distraction to friends. Heck those flecks could be made by black and decker for all I know/care. The center stone was gorgeous, more personal and a huge savings on money (has resale, the main poster is right, Diamonds are worth nothing.)
ObI'mAGirlPost: I think most diamonds are boring. Yeah, sure, they're well nigh indestructible...but most engagement rings (of a certain dollar amount within the range of your average-cubicle-dweller salary) I've seen look much the same. Some sort of gold band, adorned or unadorned, with a mounted diamond. Bleh.
;) Given a choice, I'd opt for a *real* emerald, which IIRC is karat for karat more expensive than diamonds.
My own engagement ring, FWIW, is plain platinum/gold with 5 blue/blue opals flush-mounted. In natural light, it's like having ever-changing prismatic electric blue LEDs on my finger. Very cool, but very fragile (hence the flush mount). At a local jeweler, I've seen black opals with red and green fire, and green opals with red and blue fire; don't go for the common (cheap) milky white.
An antique diamond ring would be *much* more interesting than a new one...but of course the diamond would be small. I suppose it depends on whether size matters
I have been married for 8 years, and got engaged about 9 years ago. I gave in after all the hem'ing and haw'ing from my wife, but I got to give me an engagement gift. I got a laser printer. So although I paid probaby 10x more for the diamond, I figured if I did not get married or she split at least I got a laser printer out of it. Larry
Does she want a portion of your combined worth sunk into a diamond or put towards your empire...
...hmm too bad empires have become passe these days.
titanium wedding rings are pretty nifty. it'd be cool to find ones made out of other out-of-the-ordinary materials. maybe get one of those iButton deals as the ring, so your s.o. can access your futuristic house without keys. it's the ultimate sign of your love, that you give them access to the inner sanctum.
YEAH! where's my family of black slaves. i want them back. ATTENTION MY BLACK SLAVES: IF YOU ARE reading this (i assume you can read now right?) I'M CALLING YOU BACK TO SERVE ME. NOW MINIONS!
Gold will always have resale value because it is an exchange traded commodity. If worse comes to worse you can always melt it down and sell it for $310 an ounce or more, if the price goes up. If you want to see the live price of gold you can go to Kitco and watch the value of your jewelry go up and down.
Perhaps a new car / motorbike / TV / set of power tools would be more your^H^H^H^Hher thing?
From the article:
...or because it takes a professionally-certified gemologist to discern the actual quality of a gem. Of course diamonds have no value on eBay - people don't want to buy them without certificates of authenticity, an AGA-backed jeweler to verify them, etc.
The diamond engagement ring is a 63-year-old invention of N.W.Ayer advertising agency. The De Beers diamond cartel contracted N.W.Ayer to create a demand for what are, essentially, useless hunks of rock.
63 years old? That wouldn't explain the Crown Jewels of England or the historicity of diamonds' value dating back hundreds of years.
You can only sell it at a diamond purchasing center or a pawn shop where you will receive a tiny fraction of its original "value."
Of course, if this were true it would mean that apparantely all insurance companies have been duped as well.
The valid points of the objections are that the diamond trade has been used to propagate slavery, fuel wars, etc. Many jewelers can now tell you the exact origin of your diamond, from mine to showroom.
just go to a pawn shop and haggle.
Unfortunately, opals are also very fragile stones. She would have to take the ring off all the time while doing housework, and even then it could get scratched and damaged. Same story with many of the gemstones. Get her a diamond, it is much more durable. Also, they are quite pretty.
I actually had the same concerns that you do, but when I got engaged, I still expected my man to cough up a diamond. Get her a diamond, she will be much happier!
I've never purchased a diamond engagement ring (although I have purchased more than one engagement ring over the years).
I go for something that is either a stone they very much like, or (lacking their input) symbolic of them in some fashion.
Of course, I also have not tended towards the materialistic morons who feel it "must be a diamond." My wife, in fact, hates them.
If you or she wants a diamond, however, there is no room for "is it worth it" types of questions.
The ring isn't the investment, you dolt.
The relationship is.
is a guarantee to that bitch that you will subsidize her ability to sit on her ass at home and go to the mall with her yenta friends and spend your money while you are at work 10 hours..then when she finds out you're fucking the secretary, she has the nerve to get upset..that's some bullshit right there..get a job whores!
My girlfriend made it VERY clear she didn't want a big fat-ass diamond on her hand; she wanted something special. Black Pearl was mentioned, and so I had a mutual jeweller friend whip up a nice ring that I presented to her in the back of a Checker Marathon taxicab in Kalamazoo Michigan.
The ring's main item is a BLACK PEARL. Let me tell you, that gets a lot more attention than any diamond.
It looks like
this and this.
At the last second, I asked that he throw a few token diamonds around the edge. They were tiny, almost ornamental. And the ring barely scraped four figures. Barely.
Best choice we ever had, avoiding the fat-ass diamond.
Many women don't "get" the fact that =they= are paying for the ring too. The money used to pay for that ring is coming out of your marital assets before you even get married. You will BOTH be saddled with the debt burden just as you are starting out. My wife's ring is a family heirloom.
I've had two sets of friends buy titanium wedding rings. They're nice, can have some good looking designs, and are highly durable.
One friend bought them in a jewelry store. The other bought their's online, though I don't know what site. (Just search Google)
It depends on the girl. If you propose to someone who sees through the Matrix, then there are other possibilities. Seriously, I know a few girls that honestly don't care. Two of my friends married with gold bands, and others who saw this said they'd do the same. Another friend of mine is single, but she says she doesn't want a diamond for exactly the same reason as the article submittor mentioned; she's too conscious both of the direct abuses of the industry and the costs to society when we're sold a bill of goods that way.
There's also a whole set of people who are in between. They don't really care about the diamond, but they do care about the appearances and don't want to take flak from society. I know a number of couples in this category who've just gone cubic zirconia.
There are also girls who are totally caught by the mythos the diamond/jewelry people have sold society. If you think your life will be happier living with one of these girls, then your choice is clear. You pay the price, just like you pay the price by accepting the downsides of anyone's character in return for the positives and possibilities they have to offer.
A friend of mine from a very outside-the-mainstream family actually makes jewelry. She took a guitar string, and very neatly rolled it up into a ring for me (this is harder to do well than it sounds). She knew I was thinking about a special someone, and suggested I take it to a smith and have them coat it with a prescious metal (so's not to turn one's finger green, a practical consideration, as well as the aesthetic value), and give it to said someone. Anyone who knows me would know there was a lot of personal meaning tied up in the gesture. Enough to overpower the personal legend marketed to women? Again, it would depend on the woman. But I'm toying with the idea of proposing that way (if not actually leaving said ring as the sole physical token), and I think that how a potential fiancee/wife would respond to that might say a lot about her potential as a suitable fiancee/wife for me.
Tweet, tweet.
I wouldn't look for an alternative, I would just look for a responsibly mined dimaond. I would look for companies that sell diamonds mined from developed nations like Australia. Eg Rio Tinto mines diamonds at the Argyle mine in Western Australia. They are relatively unique, and the company has very progressive policies towards working with the indigenous residents that live in the area. If it is a little hard to find them, then look for a PINK diamond. they are absolutely beautiful, and 95% of them come from the Argyle Diamond mine in Western Australia. This way, in the words of Aali G you can "bone two birds with one cock". You can get something unique and beautiful, it is still a diamond, and you know it is not from a cartel, or involved slave labor. Just my thoughts for the day... You can find information on Argyle Diamonds Here
lounge around on the blue couch
Child slave labor, price fixing, if you don't get her a diamond you'll be sleeping on the couch for a loooooong time.
Otherwise, I give you an "A" for effort in trying to weasel out of having to spend 2 -3 g's on an engagment ring. Nice try.
This is so easy its another waste of my time.
Tell her this:
"Honey, would you rather have a diamond ring, or (insert equivalently expensive item here)"?
Then she can decide. Problem solved. Everyone wins. She can't hold it against you because you let her decide. Winners all around, no one goes out with a sad face.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Bottom line, pre-owned jewelry is the easiest way to afford something you can't get at a mall store, and you won't get fleeced. :)
I fail to see why everyone always sees diamonds as such an evil investment. They are by no means the only thing that siphons consumer's money into sketchy domains. I'm sure almost every industry has its gray areas. To tell the truth, you can seldom tell where your money's going.
For instance, I imagine when you buy firearms you're indirectly funding the R&D and production of weapons that may be used by terrorists. Also, many tree-hugging "I wouldn't hurt a fly" hippies turn a blind eye to the cold blooded killings that brought them their mind-altering drugs.
On a less brutal stage, every time you see a movie you're helping the MPAA lobbyists. When you go to yor friendly neighborhood dry-cleaner you may actually be funding laundering of a different sort. Who knows? Maybe your paper boy is using your money to buy hamsters to torture.
Hell, even taxes go towards things I'm sure you'd find distasteful (although we don't really have a choice here). I'm not saying we should just ignore the suspicious money trail; it is a problem. But why the particular emphasis on diamonds?
Along the same thread, why not do what my fiance and I did -- use an inherited diamond. You get it for free and it looks great. We mounted a diamond pendant on a silver band: $150 total, labor included. We would have paid about $2000 for the same exact thing had we bought it new.
Of course, you just have to bend over and take it if your girlfriend wants a new diamond. This is one area where it is useless to argue, as it will just make her feel that you're cheap.
Uh, only if you were rich enough and lived in areas where it was permitted. In the Southern US, the white families that did not own slaves far outnumbered the rich elite that did. However, supporting slavery moved the common laborer up one level in social standing. In other ways, the poor Irish immigrant was worse off than the negro slave. They were called in to do dangerous work because if they died, it was of no concern to the land/company owner. However, for those that owned them, slaves were worth something, just like any other beast of burden. If one died, they were out a resource that would require hard cash to replace.
Why do you care about the resale value of an engagement ring?!?!?
Most stores have a buy back period, so if she turns you down, you can just get a refund or store credit. Otherwise, there should be no reason to try to get money back from the diamond. It's hers, for keeps.
Alternative stones are quite nice, such as emeralds, saphires, or opals, and make a definite statement. Also, I've heard that watches make very nice engagement gifts. I would check with your future fiancee before getter her anything other than diamond, though. Girls can be rather picky about that sort of thing.
Alright. Let's review. You post on Slashdot. You have a girl you are going to marry.
You are a nerd with a girlfriend.
Most of the people here rarely talk to girls (no, its not flamebait; im one of them), let alone marry them! Buy her a diamond ring you idiot!
From this site: http://www.titaniumweddingringsandbands.com
They arrived quickly, and fit well. And the price was right.
My girlfriend understands my thoughts regarding diamonds, but deep down, I'm sure she would like a diamond. Even a small one.
Then BUY HER ONE!!!!!
I'm not married, but I am in a serious relationship and have been for about 4 years. I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you this, but if you love her, right now is not the best time to wage your anti-tradition diamond ban. You don't want to spend a ton? Buy a smaller diamond, you said yourself she will probably still want at least a small one.
And if resale value is a major concern, is this a person you really feel comfortable proposing to / marrying? Be sure before you buy the rock. And good luck!
Mark
I'm going to assume that your intended is a one-of-a-kind woman. So why does she deserve the same sort of engagement ring that everyone and his brother gets ??
I bought my wife an antique amethyst ring at a jeweler's Estate Sale. Pretty, different, and most of all, UNIQUE, just like my wife. She loved it. Mind you, I spent several hours going through the estate jewelry for just the the right piece, but my wife was worth it. She still is. Isn't YOURS worth some unusual effort as well ???
What the. That's all my lifes savings.
If you decide to buy a diamond, do it at the NY Diamond exchange. Even if you have to spend $500 flying to New York for a day, the trip to 47th street is worth it.
When I bought my fiance her ring, and I brought it back home (in NC) and showed it to some jewelers around here, they asked me how much I paid for it. When I told them, they told me that they couldn't sell such a ring for less than twice the price of what I paid for it.
My advice, though, would be to be prepared to spend all day looking at the exchange, and don't go for the first thing you see. Also, go into it having a good idea of what you're looking for, or else you'll never be able to decide which to buy, they have so many.. and BARGAN with the sellers!
I was lucky... my wife didn't like diamonds! A lot of people like them only because they are suppose to. My wife was very objective about it. She wanted a pretty ring and decided that diamonds were just plain boring. In the end, we decided on a sapphire. She loved the dark blue stone, it was my birthstone, and ol' Charles gave one to Princess Di (not that either of us give a crap about Princess Di, but it was good ammo for the girlfriends biggest diamond contest).
I say go for something different... An engagement is about the most personal relationship you will ever have. Make the ring just as personal... not some competition!
Disclaimer: I view men and women as equals and concluding otherwise is taking this post out of context.
Personally, I'll pay the extra money for a fine metal because I DO care about the quality of an engagement ring. However, a high quality metal and rare stone a $5K ring is not. The problem we have here is a market force that has created a cultural "need" for women to have an overpriced piece of trash on their finger. Women on one hand want to be treated equally, but on the other hand want us to spend a rediculous amount of money on virtually nothing. Not only is this an insult to their intelligence, it is pure hypocracy. Until women Get Over It men will be pressured into "showing their love" through thousands of dollars while a few businessmen laugh at the cultural flaw that makes them billions.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Look carefully at what Marriage actually is.
It is a contract between each party to the marriage and the State. The implications of this are rarely understood by the people who enter into it, at least not until divorce, tax or credit problems, etc.
As to the diamond thing. Why can't the woman be expected to invest "two month's salary" on something for the man? I won't even touch this in my case, since my current S.O. can't seem to make in a year what I do in two months, it's just plain and simple out of the question.
1oz Gold. Go to a gold dealer. :)
:) (knowing basically what you pointed out above).
For an actual ring, it depends on her tastes. My neighbors wife screamed at her husband when he wanted to get her a diamond
She just got a gold wedding band, to keep him happy (having a ring), but no diamond.
Then, he still wanted to buy her something expensive. She told him to get a small gold piece, I forget what it was called offhand, sorry. (but the value fluctuates with gold prices, rather than losing value drastically i.e. rings, earrings, necklaces, etc).
http://www.angryburrito.com/ The best, completely unfinished software review site ever.
She wants a diamond. You want her.
Buy her the damned ring, you idiot!
Q.E.D.
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
Gems are a complete scam. Just say yes to cubic zirconiums! Or no gems at all.
If she needs a ring to feel secure in the marriage, maybe your relationship isn't secure in the first place.
It's about artificial value. Girls like diamonds because they are expensive. If they start to tell you that it's the beauty of the stone and all that, offer them moissanite that looks pretty much identical to the naked eye. Not only that, they could get a stone twice as beautiful at half the cost. They won't want it - why? Because it's the money. Nothing else.
If you're concerned about an engagement ring's resale value, methinks you're missing the point.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
If you're really telling the truth, and the have absolutely no resale value whatsoever,
than what is the hesitation ?? If you get a used one, the money has already GONE to the
terrorists -- and what you spend will only be going to the indirect-funder-of-terrorists-
fellow-American who bought it in the first place. (Hardly as morally reprehensible)
So just get her a used diamond the size of God for like $.50 or whatever.
What the hell does this have to do with "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters.", anyway?
Slashdot is becoming more and more useless every day.
A pity.
Every now and then a *normal* person sneaks in... they don't last long...
That's not to say that my wife doesn't like jewelry (she does), but even she agrees that diamonds are really the most boring gem, regardless of WHAT the ads might say....
Don't let the Diamond cartel dictate what you like, decide for yourself.
Every man dreds spending a lot of money on some stupid traditional ring. But remember that it appreciates in price, rather than depreciates like a car or computer. Buy your ring at a place where you can upgrade it later (around Portland, they have a discount jeweler called Shane Company). If you believe this marriage is going to last, this is the one thing you really need to bite the bullet on. She, no you will be forever judged by what size stone you get her. Remember that. Ask yourself what kind of day to day memory she wants to have of you. Because _every_ time she looks down at that ring, she'll remember how much you consider her. This is almost innate in the world of women. When it comes down to things like this, most women are shallow, vulnerable creatures that don't want to have their friends rings outdo their own. If she tells you size doesn't matter, slap her than yourself for believing it. Remember, it's not about you, it's about her.
They come from Arab/Persian markets for the most part, and the divers get paid fairly well.
PS Diamonds will get a gal to give you head though =)
Find a silversmith who makes jewellery that you like and that's a bit different from the offerings at your run-of-the-mill jeweller. Take your girlfriend with you and commission the silversmith to make an engagement ring (and wedding bands if appropriate). There are loads of alternatives to diamonds for stones; the silversmith will help you. Whether or not the finished ring contains a diamond, it will be unique; you'll be supporting a local artisan; and it will be something that the two of you have created specifically as a symbol of your relationship. You can also talk to the silversmith about where they source their gems from, which might go some way to easing the concerns you have.
It lacks the wow factor of presenting your girlfriend with a huge rock, but the symbolism it accrues will more than make up for it as time goes on.
Like they always say, always buy wholesale, I did. Try your six degrees of separation, you may know someone who knows someone who knows someone who has a store, or better yet imports...that's the best, and maybe only way to get a break, it is a cartel otherwise.
A bunch of women I know (or kinda know) have recently started spending their husband's money (long story there, trust me, if you knew them, you'd understand) by "trading up" (their words, not mine) the smallish diamond they were given for engagement to a larger one of their own choosing.
So if these things have no resell value ("no dealer will buy a diamond from you") then how are these women *selling* their diamonds? I know this for a fact. Not pawning them, selling them.
Others have said this article is full of holes. From my POV, that's the largest one.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
If the lady does not share your beliefs about social justice, there may be a rocky road ahead. If you find diamonds ethically unacceptable (which they are, in my view), then any woman you marry should respect your feelings.
As an old married, I recommend doing what's in your heart, and forget the dammed rules imposed by a commercial society.
My marriage didn't have an auspicious chart. I proposed in the wrong place, both of us were out of work at the time, her parents hated me, an old boyfriend was harrassing her, and she was 7 years older than I -- a true recipe for disaster. We couldn't afford "good" rings, so we bought a couple of $10 silver rings in a mall, found a free minister, and were married outdoors at the Garden of the Gods in Colorado Springs.
We've been happily married for 20 years. We don't wear our rings; our bond is something stronger than a simple band of metal. The best spouse is one who sticks with you through he|| and high water, just as you stick with her.
All about me
which means that you should be able to find a second-hand diamond somewhere. People die but diamonds don't.
Bought wife's used at a local store. Saved a lot of money. Also, people break up all the time who are engaged. Buy theirs. They are always advertising in the classifieds. Not worth buying new.
I love his opening statement "I'm going to get engaged" as if she has no choice. I wonder if he believes the following: I will not gain weight after marriage. I will have dinner prepared for me every night. I will have sex every time I want it. I will receive an endless supply of massages. I will have children when I am ready. My wife will have her period when I tell her to damn it! Truly his girlfriend is fortunate to be obligated to such a man.
You want tradition. You can always get her a burqa. It doesn't get more traditional than that. And it won't cost you a leg and a ball. Hell you can even have her sew it her damn self.
Tell me she has a sister!!!!
Men will have to be content with a dog.
word.
Has anyone noticed that women like useless stuff? I mean they love rings, jewelry, fashion, flowers, candles, etc. Stuff that is completely useless yet costs plenty of money. I wish I knew why.
I married May 2001. Beyond a plastic ring out of the quartet machine at five-and-dime, I never even considered an engagement ring, much less a diamond. However, my wife isn't into thiat sort of thing anyway (I think our wedding bands together cost under $500). I tend to think that if all they care about is how much money you'll spend on them, they're not worth it. Now hold on before you break it off. I also understand everybody is different, and traditions mean more to some than to others. She seems to understand your stance, but it sounds like she would still like one, for tradition's sake. You would probably be wise to weigh all the options and listen to your heart. Also, I tend to think moderation is usually a wise choice.
:-D
I wish you and your bride well.
<GLOAT>BTW, we now also have an incredible 7 month old son</GLOAT>
I agree with 90% of this post. But it is absolutely incorrect that diamonds have no resale value. Buying a diamond is not like buying a car, where it degrades with time. Rather, it is like buying a house, that (assuming you and your neighbors keep the area nice) will gradually gain value. Unless, of course, you sell it at a pawn shop. But then you're going for a loss with anything you sell at a pawn shop.
I was in this situation a few years ago, went to the jewelry stores, and was appalled at the insane costs for some pretty lame-looking rings. I thought I'd be trapped into buying an overpriced diamond anyway --until my mother happened to mention that she had a ring that used to belong to my grandmother, and would I like to give my fiance that ring? Hell yes!
My fiance (now wife) just went crazy over having such a unique ring with so much family history --and from my cheap perspective, it was FREE!
So I suggest you ask around and see if any of the older women in your family have an heirloom ring they would like to give you to use as an engagement ring. You never know.
And if that fails, check out the estate sales!
diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price.
Odd - second hand diamond rings certainly sell for close to new prices. Also when I bought my wife a diamond pendant in Amsterdam for our anniversary (erm 2nd, not 60th!) it came with a buy-back guarantee that was valid indefinitely for a large proportion of the price (I think 90% but it was a few years ago now).
I was lucky in that my girlfriend (now my wife) didn't particularly like diamonds. So I looked around and got her one with a really nice sapphire instead. The (artificial) price difference also meant that I could get a ring with a much larger stone than I could have afforded if I'd bought a Diamond.
My wife didn't get an engagement ring. We went from "Will you marry me?" to "I do" within a few weeks. Don't ever let anyone tell you that unplanned pregnancies aren't good for anything.
Personally I got an Opal for my wife. Why? Because it is far more unique and interesting than something that just sparkles. I don't see what the big deal is with diamonds. They are the most boring gem in the world. Rubies, saffires and emeralds are much more interesting. It's only cuz the diamond industry is controlled by De Beers.
My parents were hippies. Dad gave Mom an emerald engagement ring with small diamonds in the setting. They exchanged necklaces with azure bands at their wedding. Since Mom liked emeralds so much, once or twice a decade, Dad would get her another peice of expensive emerald jewelry. They divorced, just like everyone else, but diamonds was never a sticking point. Ok, I've got a better example.
:)
A friend of mine proposed to his wife by going to a local jeweler and paying him a couple hundred dollars for the privilege of borrowing his emerald stock. He took his girlfriend out to dinner, pulled a silk handkerchief out of his suit pocket, poured 200 emeralds into a little pile on the table, and asked her if she'd like to pick one for an engagement ring.
She didn't complain about not getting a diamond. That's for damn sure.
Another excellent option is antique jewelry. If you have the time to do a lot of inquiry, and you stay in the same price range, you could wind up with a much much more interesting and stylish ring. An antique diamond ring, IMHO, would not be supporting violence in exactly the same way. And your girlfriend wouldn't be upset.
All that said, I can't tell if you mean what you say. If you know what your girlfriend would like, you're going to have to think of a way to make her at least that excited about something else before you take it away. She's going to get idiotic comments from her friends in any case if you can't afford some gaudy monstrosity. Figure it out so that she'll be blown away no matter what. If you're not sure, do more figuring. Ideally, she'll be blown away, and it will be affordable. But the affordable part should be the first to go
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Diamond or not; whether it fits into or 'clicks' with the wedding band or not - you are unlikely to get away without that token of you commitment. Whether an advertising agency or our country's increased incomes caused it; the engagment ring is a tradition in our country - just as anniversary gifts, flowers, and other tokens of our affection are not only expected but generally required. These 'traditions' may or may not be commonplace in your family but they are as entrenched as the spending on holidays.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
I am not kidding. You can mine your own diamonds at Crater of Diamonds State Park in Arkansas. It costs 4.50 a day, what you find is yours to keep. I found 4 diamonds on the last trip, and even uncut, they are extraordinarly beautiful stones. Plus, you get the extra romantic mileage of having dug the stone up yourself, rather than purchased it in a store. Diamond mining is hard physical work, but determination plus some good luck and you will find a stone.
Just don't get it engraved at all. It's easier to pawn off an unengraved one when she leaves you a few months before the wedding.
signed,
the voice of experience
For several years the russians have been selling "synthetic" diamonds. These are grown at extremely high temperature and pressure from either the seed of a real diamond or a piece of graphite. The results are often flawed, but good enough to be sold to the drilling markets. However, large flawless ones are available (at a price), the only way to tell them from a real (as in dug out of the ground) one is the synthetic fluoresces for a microsecond or so longer than it's natural counterpart.
:)
This has understandably got DeBeers rather worried.
For more information visit: http://www.shahlimar.com/diamond/
But if you want to ensure that your diamond has a pristine past, it's the only way to go.
I've had serious GFs and we discussed the whole "diamonds are tainted by the blood of those forced to mine 'em" thing and the fact that the whole engagement ring thing is just a scam run by those who are doing the forcing.
Long story short: They want a ring with a diamond.
Don't try reason or logic on a girl. Just give 'em what they want, or they'll resent you.
You can't take the sky from me...
I went through the same process when I was getting engaged. Conflict Diamonds really bothered me, so that was out of the question.
My grandmother recenlty passed away, and we were left with her jewelery. It was equally divided among her 3 male grandchildren. I got her mothers original engagement ring and wedding band. They made a great engagement ring/set, and will be something she can pass on to here
grandchildren.
One of my brothers inherited her cocktail ring, and had a jewler make some additions to it along the same theme, and it was his engagement ring.
In anycase, all three of us recycled her jewlery, and used them as engagement rings. Our fiances loved them, and have something symbolic of the union of our families to pass on to thier grandkids.
1) I gave my wife my grandmother's diamond ring for our engagement. That not only satisfied the tradition of diamond, but also was a special family heirloom (not that expensive though). So, one alternative you may or may not have is to give a family ring of some sort to her.
2) You probably can read her feelings about whether the diamond is really important to her or if she'd just "like it." She doesn't have to be materialistic to really want one, though...as someone said once engagement/wedding is something girls have dreamt about since they were young, and meeting her expectations is certainly worthwhile.
3) [BONUS] Just because buying diamonds supports bad people, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that NOT BUYING them will prevent the bad things from happening. Terrorist and murderers are going to get their power and money from SOMEWHERE, and if it isn't from diamonds it will shift to another trade.
I've been married almost thirty years. Do either one of us have any ice? No. Do we love each other any less? No.
'nuff said.
It is now time to flip off your computer.
My wife (of eight years) and I spent some time looking around a boutique jewellers and looking at what rings were available. We found some designs we really liked (not at all like the traditional diamond engagement ring) and then sat down with a jeweller and got him to make a ring we designed.
We live in Australia, but recently spent three years in the US living in MA, NV and MI. Everyone who saw her engagement ring were very impressed (most only had the standard diamond ring), and there's not a single diamond on the ring.
There is one ting better that a diamond ring, and that's a ring that been custom designed for her.
Congratulations!
Three things. 1. You _must_ buy her one. Due to feelings, Family, friends, and hers at some level - you just have to buy one.
2. You can save a ton (or buy larger/nicer stuff) by buying from a quality pawn shop.
3. If you take the advice in 2 - NEVER ever tell anyone. It just can't have a happy ending for anyone to know, since a lot of people have bad views on pawn shops.
... that a diamond is much to conventional of a rock for such an extraordinary lady of taste and refinement as her; something along the lines of a ruby in a white gold or platinum setting would suit her better.
And if she's not an extraordinary lady (regardless of taste or refinement), then why are you marrying her?
You buy her a small diamond and she will be evaluating things you want to purchase for youself. Like all those high tech gadgets. You buy them then they have absolutely no resale value. They are many times made by dirt cheap labor.
Better buy the big one or you will regret.
First, if she WANTS one, get her one. This isn't about you.
When we got married I spent evey penny I had on a small diamond. I don't even know how big it is. Size didn't matter then, doesn't matter now.
From time to time my wife mentions a new ring. We have more money now and I always tell her that she can have whatever she is comfortable buying. But, she doesn't really want a new ring.
Buy something that really is a couple thing - a tandem bicycle!My wife and I (just got married over the weekend in fact) purchased an antique engagement ring. We bought a beautiful 1920s engagement ring with a 1.4/vs2 diamond in a very elegant platinum setting from dealer (online) for less than half of what the big stores wanted for anything even close.
Neither my wife nor I liked the aesthetics of diamonds. We just didn't think that they looked that good on her. So we looked at other gemstones, and wound up with a ruby set with three small diamonds. The red and gold look great together, and match her color preferences much better than a gold-set diamond would. Thirteen years later it still looks good, and she still gets complements on it.
If you are thinking in terms of social statements -- whether the social conventions concerning diamonds on the one hand or the questionable ethics of their production on the other -- you might be ignoring the fact the ring is jewelry, and not just symbolism. Sure, a big diamond has a lot of symbolic value now. But that won't mean you and your wife will like the way it looks five years from now.
I don't think your real concern is resale value, or how to get a good value, but in case you (or others) decide to go the way of the diamond here is some info on getting good value and thus good resale value.
.98, 1.23 or 1.49 carats) these sell at a non trivial discount to the stones at the 3/4, 1 etc mark, because "she" wants a 1 Carat. YOU CAN NOT TELL WITHOUT A SCALE. Tell her (or let her tell her friends) it is 1 Carat.
Good diamonds:
Clean (vvsi2 or better),
well cut (with in 1% of ideal),
very little color (F/G or better)
Cost much more than others and resell very well.
The way diamond prices are measure is by the Rap sheet (The Rappaport Diamond Report). These prices claim to be the average cash selling of _well cut_ diamonds in NYC during the previous week. This report is a subscription service for Jewelers only The list by weight color and clarity. Well cut is assumed.
You should seek to pay NO MORE 18% LESS THAN the Rap price online or in a jewelery district. If you can get 23% off Rap you are doing well.
Wholesale diamond prices are generally 20-30% off Rap.
In order to know that rap really applies your diamond MUST have a GIA or AGL cert. Lots of nice (smaller) stones don't because it costs about $200 to get a cert. These are fine to buy, but NEVER trust a jewelers evaluation of a stone without a certificate.
Tips for buying:
- Set your budget.
- Only buy a loose stone then get it set.
- Buy only a well cut diamond.
- Insist on a GIA certified stone.
- Go to a jewelery district (not a mall)
- Buy just below the unit. (.74,
- Find something you like, that you can afford if sold at 18% off rap, don't worry about what they are asking. Tell them you are looking to pay %23 off rap, settle between there and 18%.
Good luck.
OK, I'm really sorry, but for god's sake. The whole question of the ethics and economics of diamonds pales in comparison to this:
What kind of girl would marry a guy who would come to *SLASHDOT* for advice about an engagement ring?
Good lord, man. Have some freaking dignity.
let me ask this - Have you tried talking to her? That's going to be your only truly successful way of finding out what she wants and what you should do... though I think it's cool you went to slashdot first, but perhaps you should have tried the message boards at WeddingChannel.com instead?
:)
Due to the problems in diamond production and war conflicts in the regions, getting a diamond alternative, or perhaps a family heirloom diamond are perfectly reasonable alternatives.
But for heaven's sake - ASK HER what she wants!!! Most of my girlfriends and women I chat with online would prefer shopping for a ring with their boyfriends to *guarantee* they get something they like, as opposed to a total surprise with a fugly ring. My husband took me with him, and made the proposal itself a total surprise.
And here we are today, happily married almost two years after we first went ring shopping together
Best of luck to you, and you know she'll say yes!
you're confusing reality with fantasy... She has the fantasy, and no reality realized by yourself or anyone can ever ever take that away from her. Yes, it's an orchestrated illusion, but it's HER illusion, solidly and irrevocably entrenched in her psyche ...
so get over it ... get the diamond, and dont make a thesis out of this!
trust me!
jon
"There are 11 kinds of people: those who know binary, those who don't, and those who could not care less!"
I used to boycott Ben and Jerry's because of their 1% for peace crap, back when my parents livlihood depended on the defense industry.
Now I boycott Microsoft because they donate money to republican and democratic candidates for office.
Face it.. sometimes money you spend goes to things you don't agree with. This 'conflict diamonds' crap is no different from the 'drugs fund terrorism' crap that I see on TV these day.
I metamoderate, therefore I am
I wanted to get my girlfriend a nice ring, but at the time I was a student and had no money.
:)
I looked at the jewelry stores and for what I could afford, she could have a diamon splinter. It was really embarrassing. I thought about how silly she would feel showing this little piece of nothing to her friends and family. I think in this case size DOES matter
So, for the same amount of money, I bought her this HUGE honking Cubic Zerc. Looks real nice.
I told her upfront it was fake (I'm not going to lie to HER!!) She just doesn't have to tell people herself. In the end it didn't really matter. She's not the type to show off anything anyway, but it made me feel better. That's the big lie. That I should feel like a chump because my wife-to-be can't flash some big rock? F*&k that!
Now that I have a job and some money (we've been married for 8 years now) I don't think either one of us is really all that interested in getting a real diamond. She still wears it and I still think it looks good. A rock that size would have cost a couple of G's, but I only spent a 100 bucks.
The diamond industry can kiss my a$$
V
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
If your gf is so stupid that she falls for the transparent propaganda of de Beers, junk her and save the money. It won't last anyway.
All I did was find a girl who's folks were jewelers and BAM! wholesale prices abounded!
There is an alternative to so called "blood diamonds" or "conflict diamonds" though. Diamonds have been discovered in canada in the last 10 years, and were initially produced by junior companies. de Beers has already bought out at least one of the diamond sites, scheduled for production in 2006, but diamond production in Canada since 1991 has been of the highest ethical quality. You can tell Canadian produced diamonds as they are laser inscribed with a microscopic polar bear outline (although I think some jewellers now use an inscribed maple leaf inside a diamond outline).
Here are some good articles:
All you ever wanted to learn about how diamonds form
Police warning about Canadian diamonds
Information on the original diamond mine in Canada [pdf]
Find another woman who will fuck you without being bribed. Or if you insist on bribing the woman, find a prostitute who won't pretend about the whole thing.
I asked my fiancee (now wife) if she wanted a diamond engagement ring, with the full intent to buy whatever she wanted, even if I thought it was silly.
She thought it was silly too. She said, I don't want an engagement ring, I want a new bathtub!
So we got a double-ended old fashioned bathtub (and remodeled the bathroom around it), which we take a bath in together almost every day (it's large).
It's the single best decision we've made in our 4 years together, and I'm confident we'll still be saying that when its 40 years, and we're still taking baths together.
My then-girlfriend (now-wife) discussed this in the following way: Would we like to have a nice ring on her finger, or would we like to work toward a downpayment for a house? We chose the house option, and we now have a nice pair of wedding rings. And we're closing on our house in a couple of weeks.
--Paul.
The topic speaks for itself, so do it!!!
Buying the diamond is a "labor of love" to prove to the chick that you will stick around instead of impregnating her and then suddenly disappearing, netting you genetic proliferation, and burdening her with child rearing expense.
No, it doesn't really make sense in a society with rational beings, but marriage is based upon the premise that two untrustworthy animals want to make a deal.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
You could specifically ask for a ring made using Canadian diamonds, which have become available in the last 5 years or so.
Well, not many, anyway. My wife told me before I even proposed to her that she had not much interest in diamonds, let alone big showy ones. She also dislikes yellow gold, so I ended up getting her a white gold ring set with sapphires (and a few tiny diamonds around each of the sapphires), along with a matching bracelet and pendant. (We had somehow -- entirely coincidental, I'm sure ;) -- ended up on the topic of gemstones a few months before I proposed, so I had learned her likes and filed it away.)
Since then I've also gotten her a heart-shaped blue topaz pendant and a pearl-and-(small-)diamond pendant; plus, we got married, and her wedding ring itself is a thin, white gold band set with a few tiny diamonds in a V-shaped notch. (My own ring is a plain white gold band; I don't like yellow gold much, either.)
The whole "two months salary" thing was a decades-long marketing attack by DeBeers. If I had spent two months' salary on her engagement ring, it would have cost around $5,000, which we both agree is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on something that is very shiny but extremely useless (scroll down till you see the chart). Yes, she likes jewelry, but we both (for slightly different reasons) detest the idea that spending more money automatically equals you love her more. My wife is never happier than when I clean things around the apartment, unbidden by her -- and it doesn't require me to spend thousands of dollars to do so.
If your fiancee honestly wants a big diamond, either because it springs from her own heart or because she's been convinced by the marketdroids, well, go ahead and get it for her. If, like so many women recently, she's shucked the "must have big diamond... MUST HAVE BIG DIAMOND" cliche, find out what gems she really does like.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
ok dude, let's look at the facts
/. /. asking about an 'ethical' problem
... who cares if it's ethical or not. how many /.ers do you think are getting laid? by a human? by a member of the opposite sex?
... don't worry about us pale, drastically [over|under]weight /. geeks. go get some stank on your down lo. if that means buying a diamond when you don't really feel like it, take one for the team. and while you're taking it, be sure to take some pics and post the somewhere on the www/nntp.
1. you read
2. you wrote in to
3. YOU HAVE A GIRLFRIEND
jesus man
get out while you can man. you're probably tapping some tanglicious broad
vodka, straight up, thank you!
A friend of mine got engaged recently and the couple both felt the same way with regards to the Great Diamond Conspiracy(tm). Their solution was to buy a gargantuan fake ring (it had to have been a good 1" rock). The thing looked so damn silly and made such a statement, nobody's mentioned the lack of a real ring (as far as I know).
The real bonus was, it tended to disarm most of the guys as well, rather than causing the usual Male Sphincter Tightening when the girlfriends get glassy eyed admiring a real ring...
Hey,
I've been married now for 3 years, and spent $6k on my wifes ring. I felt like I was getting ripped off, and had no choice. Knowing what I know now, I will NEVER buy diamonds again. These guys make a material called moissanite that will fool most jewelers even under a 10x microscope. They sell a special test kit to jewelers so they can verify a moissanite rock. Yet, the big news is that these rocks sell for 1/10 or less then the price of diamonds.
There web site has info: moissanite.com
I have not bought of these rocks yet, but from everything I read, no one can tell them from real diamonds. This isn't cubic zirconia crap.
Wyatt
QVC sells another alternative to diamonds called Diamonique. They sparkle more then your average diamond and cost a fraction of the price. How do you really want to show you love for somebody, by giving her a good sized ring that shines like nothing she's ever seen before that both economical and practical? Or will you blow $5000 on a real diamond that would be half the size of a pea? Love isn't about how much you can spend a glorified rock, is about what you can give her that will make her feel special. Besides, you won't have to worry about where the diamond in question really came from.
My o/l (old lady) got an emerald for her engagement ring. Of course, she likes emeralds better than diamonds. Your miliage may vary
Diamonds are forever is a DeBeers marketing campaign. it is tradition only because of its unparalleled success. Where do you want to go tomorrow? is another, will it be a tradition, i certainly hope not.
Diamond markets and mining, are a dark and seedy business. Diamonds are harvested under cruel conditions, they are used to finance wars and totalitarian regimes. they get whisked away to cartels like DeBeers and markets like antewerp.
These cartels have fixed buying policies, that would astound. you pay them money before you even see what you bought! (this is on the wholesale level).
there are many places to find information on the shady side of diamonds, google is your friend, national geographic did a cover story on diamonds a few month ago.
the manipulation of culture and the masses by business for profit is the time honored tradition here.
When I asked my now-wife to marry me, I knew that not just any ring would do--not because she would want something expensive (not even her friends would care about that), but because she would want something with character. The stuff being sold today just doesn't have any, so I decided to go used.
Not just used, but antique. I found a small estate jewlery shop which happened to have the parfect ring--a sort of art-deco design, made in the 1920s (yes, it happened to have a diamond). They were happy to strengthen the band and resize it (hint: get some calipers and measure your girlfriend's rings while she's away to get the ring the right size).
So for a bit less than what I would have spent on a bland new piece of silver and carbon, I was able to find something with character that was older than my grandparents. Assuming her friends have any class whatsoever, just think how envious they'll be of such a prize on her finger!
*******
"What good is science if no one gets hurt?!" - Professor Chromedome
You can still spend a small fortune on the ring, but it will be more personal than a diamond.
- "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
I had a jeweler once tell me that an engagement diamond is an "investment". I had to laugh.. do you wait 10 years and sell it for a profit?
It's a symbol. A symbol that you really will spend thousands of dollars on a rock to decorate her finger.
And don't kid yourself.. she wants one -- badly. As big a one as you can afford, since her friends will be looking at it to measure your worth.
You can wish and pretend that we're beyond that, and that it's not really so, but then wake up and buy the best diamond you can afford. If you ever live to regret it, it will be the least of your expense and headaches anyway.
...compared to silver. In my honest opinion silver should be the most precious element on earth.. but it all goes back to supply and demand, nevermind that.. Silver is the very best room temperature conductor. Silver has great anti-bacterial properties, which led the formation of the followiong wise tales such as: "Put a coin (SILVER) in the well or water barrel for good luck." -- It is well known that people would put silver in drinking water to keep it from becoming stagnant and contaminated. "Silverware" "Born with a silver spoon in your mouth." It is my belief silver was used for SILVERware because of its anti-bacterial properties, as well as mallability. Anyway...I hope you and most geeks will agree.. SILVER is more precious than diamonds and gold.
Think about a women for a second, they are not at all what you just thought. I have learned this through time. If you do not have a natural involentary urge to buy her a diamond ring, then my friend, She will feel your resistance. She WILL feel uncomfortable with you. she WILL think about you twice. By then it might be too late. Your actions will then be very important because at this time, you are now being compared with every guy shes met in the past 3 years.
She has been told about diamonds since she started talking to other femmes.
Its love, man. You have to do this deed. The reason diamonds are invaluable is because if the love fails over the ring. An example would be, if she said NO when you showed it to her. The ring could be cursed, or have a bad omen. Traditionally, no one is going to want to buy that. If the ring did have value, then it would be obnoxios. The rich men would keep upgrading their ladies rings, the young man would have 1 in his pocket, it would ruin the 'diamond; effect. kinda like an inflation.
It could also be that through your research on the web studing diamonds, that you have managed to find and save all the links to the negative aspects of getting married with all the energy focused on diamonds. This could be trouble. If you never came to slashdot, you might have actually ruined your chances of getting married.
Here are some positive links:
pretzel_logic
My wife handed me a 'get off the hook card' by falling in love with an antique solitaire .8 carat diamond that had been inscribed on the inside band in the 20s. The diamond has nice color but a few flaws - I honestly forgot the rating, but it's pretty and not wimpy looking at all. At the time the 'formula' for getting an engagemnt ring would have dicated that I shell out about 6k - I was sucking in air an getting ready for that when she saw this one. It cost 2k... so look around (with her) under the guise of buying an antique bookshelf or something. It is almost a sure bet that she'll gravitate toward the gems/jewelery in an antique mallish type place. This could bite your butt though, thinking about it, you may want to scout out where you want to go 'bookcase' shopping before you take her anywhere....
I think if you look hard enough at any item in this world, you can probably justify against it by say that it's bad because of so and so. Sometimes, you just take the bite and be willing to chew with all the grit that comes with it. Nothing in this world is pure and clean. Everything comes with a price. If you honestly believe that your gf is happy that you eeked her out of a diamond ring cause of a 2-4.5% chance of , you better be damn sure you read between the lines. Cause that's where all the writing lies. Besides, get used to it, you're gonna be doing a lot more sacrificing for your future wife from now on. And you know what... sometimes it's not so much about what you want, it's about what you want to do to make her the happiest person around, and sometimes that really is worth a few personal sacrifices. flame on.
Although they were a monopoly, even the U.S. Department of Justice couldn't stop them from showing those clever shadow-people commercials. But, even the mighty have trouble.
i'm a big fan of tanzonite
at the mean time, please realize that diamonds are not all that precious (material-wise), and it's under heavy monopolic powers (deBeers). however, platinum IS, so get a good platinum band and engrave something on there.
here is a good link on diamonds and the such.
p.s. artificial diamonds are making good progress. it (crystal structure) is getting too perfect until they exhibit phosphorescence. which is how they distinguish artificial diamond now. ha! (the most perfect diamonds are actually worthless. isn't that amazing?)
anyway. ask her if a dual G4+dual CinemaHD would cut it engagement-wise =)
My life in the land of the rising sun.
That's the whole point of the engagement ring -- to show her that you'd spend a lot of money on something which seems frivolous and generally useless to you because SHE's worth it.
You're not alone in thinking, "Jewelry? What can I do with that?", but I suspect you'll come to the same conclusion most of us married guys came to when we were searching for a ring. Remember: It's not about you, it's about her. Buy what makes her happy.
Watch her face when she first sees it and see if it isn't worth the price.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
oops Hit the enter key instead of the tab... oh well.
Anyway, If you are about to get married I thought you would have known by now.
It's not about what you want.
Go ahead and mock me but most everyone I know that IS married will agree. Ones that have only "been dating a really long time" will argue with me till they're blue in the face... Untill they have been married for a couple years.
Please be patient, I'm a work in progress! --Alan Jackson
I agree with you about your stand on diamonds and personally will not buy diamonds. I also think diamonds aren't that attractive anyway. It sounds like your girlfriend knows you want to marry her and you have already told her about your very reasonable hesitations about diamonds. Why not sit down and talk to her about what she wants to wear everyday. You have tons of flexibility. Do you want a solitaire or a group of stones? Do you want one kind of stone or a variety of stones? I personally think that rubies, emeralds and sapphires are the three most attractive stones. If you want to have a diamond or a couple of diamonds you can use them as accents of the other featured stone(s). Once you have discussed with her what she likes as guidlines you can still sit down with a good jeweler that does custom designs and create her a unique and socially responsible engagement ring that will be the envy of all of her friends.
Being newly engaged, I got my gf a simple, elegant ring of ruby and titanium. Why you ask? Maybe I am cheap, maybe I am just a little geeky at heart, but the simple truth is that I got it to match our matching Titanium Powerbooks. Oh, and the Ruby...I bet you can figure that out :)
"A man is either great or nothing." ~~Paul Erdos
Much like the megahertz myth, the need for a diamond engagement ring has been cultivated through careful marketing and peer pressure.
But.
The cost of NOT getting this diamond ring may be the relationship itself. It may not occur right away (she might still accept your proposal) but this will be a major disappointment to a woman who has had an engagement ring (or a rock as my ex-girlfriend called it), and it just might set the tone for the rest of your time together.
As has been pointed out elsehwhere in this very thread, gasoline, diamonds, honey, opium, and a whole bunch of other products all contribute to terrorism or cruel treatment of our fellow humans or various other badnesses in the world.
In the end, though, it will be infinitely easier to get a fuel-efficient car and switch away from various other products than it will be to alter the mindset of the woman (and ALL of her friends) who considers not where it came from or how it got there, but merely that it is on her finger.
So, if you want to get married and start of on the right foot with her, you should of course shop for the best value you can find in your budget and so on, but yes, the diamond is worth it.
[save your energy... cede her victory on this one, fight the good fight when she wants to know why you are "wasting" so much money on a cable modem/DSL, fast graphics cards, etc.]
But basically, unless you pass the following test, I suspect that deep down you are looking for an excuse to be cheap:
Unless you do all of those things, I would posit that you are already contributing to unethical behavior with your participation in commerce. If you do do all those things, and your g/f isn't open to the no diamond idea although she will jump through those hoops, then she is being hypocritical.
I say buy her the diamond and have a wonderful life together. Coming from a happily engaged man (who both bought and used inheritted diamonds)
_sig_ is away
My fiance and I went that route when we got engaged late last year and we're both very happy with the resolution. I had wanted to give her a diamond ring out of an interest in being traditional, and she had misgivings due to the labor and other abuses in diamond mining and trading.
We were fortunate that San Francisco has a fantastic estate jewelry store, and the ring she's wearing is absolutely unique.
Like you, I did alot of research on diamond engagement rings before my husband and I got engaged. I was outraged at the same things that you discovered. We both wanted something that would not only last for as long as possible, but also represent who we are. There was just no way I could wear something for the rest of my life that has to do with such a morally corrupted industry. We decided at the end to get a sapphire stone (next strongest stone to diamond) on a titanium band. The quality of the sapphire stone was much more than we could ever afford if we had gotten a diamond with the same 4 C's, and as consumers we knew that we paid a fair price. Today the amount paid by consumers for diamonds are approximately 10 times the true value of the diamonds. How can that be? You ask. DeBeers and other diamond distributors alike control the amount of diamonds that are allowed in the public to keep the prices inflated. Since the diamond industry is very much monopolized, they have no trouble doing this. Go to DeBeers' website and you'll find that they don't even have an office in the United States - because they'd never survive an anti-trust lawsuit. DeBeers is also known for using unethical tactics to force miners into using them as the sole distributor. DeBeers controls about 70% of the market share.
My advice to everyone who's caught in the same dilemma as yours is to have a discussion with your fiance and decide for yourself if having a diamond engagement ring is important enough to overlook all of these things. I couldn't overlook them, and I think if more people know about the horrible truth and refuse to accept it, more pressure would be on the distributors to improve the situation.
This website is FUCKING GAY. Taco, Hemos, Timothy, Michael, Katz....YOU ALL FUCKING SUCK.
Use an onion ring!
call me crazy, or whatever....
my gf said she didn't need a ring. but I got one for her anyways. why? I don't know about everyone else, but I found one that was beautiful and I wanted her to have it. it's a very nice ring and I spent quite a bit of money on it, but the look on her face made it all worth it.
somethings to note: I went through a family friend which I think helped in terms of price, and I did my best to get a stone that was not in conflict (prob no way to know for sure though).
In this case it's not about a lack of communication. Even is she's the love of your life and your best friend, she wants to be surprised with THE ROCK, per American Tradition (TM). Not every girl is so sentimental, but if so this is by no means a measure of one's readiness to get married.
-
My wife got my grandmother's engagement ring. My sister-in-law got one of the diamonds from when my grandmother's family converted their assets into gems before fleeing the Nazis in Austria. My other sister-in-law got, I believe, her grandmother's ring. In all cases, the price was right and the rings are much more meaningful for having a history behind them.
Obviously, not everyone's family has a backlog of diamonds. No disrespect meant to anyone -- just pointing out an option that many people do have.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Man + Money (Diamonds) = Woman
Don't you see? In that equation, men are of less value than women. She doesn't care about the diamond at all. Why would she; as you say diamonds cannot be sold. Her interest is that you establish yourself as of lesser value in the relationship; in that kind of relationship she will have control.
If you truly understand what's happening here you need to do two things: 1) Either call off the marriage or investigate the true nature of your relationship, and 2) Definitely avoid any action which indicates you are an inferior, such as buying a diamond.
If you have a wedding, will she wear white, the color of an angel? And will you wear black, the color of a villain?
Don't get into anything important that you can't or don't understand.
That new computer that set you back $2000 is going to be a boat anchor in a couple of years. How long do you expect your relationship to last? What are you willing to spend on it? (Because those "wife" and "motherhood" upgrades are going to make that ring look like chump change.)
Buying diamonds: Local mall shops are good for getting a feel for what the 4-C's mean. But for god's sake, don't buy from them. First of all, what they have is crap. Second, it's extremely overpriced crap. (Well above the "list" price.)
In most major cities there are some major diamond vendors. In Pittsburgh, they're downtown in the Clark building. They are worth checking out. These guys will sell diamonds at the "list" price.
Now check out BOMI. Call them -- Their website is best used for the phone numbers. Bomi sells for under the "list" price. Their merchandise is top notch. And they do mail-order. (Sprite, if you are reading this, this is why your stone was 50% larger and a grade better in quality than you thought I could afford.)
Oh, and in case you've overlooked the obvious: Get it insured! Talk to the folks who are selling your homeowners insurance, renters insurance, or at worse, car insurance, and see about adding to your policy.
I built the website for, and helped run a company that sells discount diamonds on the web. Over the course of working for them, I became pretty cynical about the industry. The diamond market is incredibly over-priced and price-fixed. It was very easy for us to undercut retail jewelers because they typically mark up diamonds by 3x wholesale. (this is actually recommended by all of the wholesalers I've seen).
On the other hand, diamonds do look much better than CZ, and you can always tell the difference when they are next to each other, especially under natural lighting. Moissanite, however, look very close and can even fool less skilled jewelers.
Diamonds *do* have resale value. Some dealers won't want your diamond, because they don't want to risk getting de-frauded, but many dealers do buy good used diamonds, and it isn't hard to sell a decent diamond in the newspaper or forums.
I personally think stones like ruby, sapphire or emerald are more beautiful and more rare. I bought my fiancee a diamond (wholesale for me of course) because I was concerned that she would be self-concious around friends if I didn't. Would they think I didn't value her as much?
In the end, I think buying a diamond is one of those things that doesn't make much sense, but you will take a lot of crap if you ignore it, kinda like women changing their last name when they get married or celebrating Christmas. But if your fiancee doesn't mind, and you don't mind taking some crap from friends, then you can save the money.
As for what I did, I took her to Carson Pirie Scott during their sale-sale-clearance-sale-sale days and she picked out a great (big) aquamarine with a couple of dinky diamonds around it. Didn't set me back much and it appraised much higher than was paid. I was as much against the diamond machine and she knew it, but she seems happy with the ring and all. Of course, every woman is an individual, despite what you may have heard and know about group potty breaks, and as such find out for yourself what she wants. And for pete's sake, talk about it! If you can't work out a ring for her, what does that portend for your future?
I have many of my own "issues" concerning the obviously industry-driven push towards forcing men to buy their loved ones jewelry to prove said love... I made a very strong case to my wife when we were engaged about how diamonds and wedding rings were only as important as you make them, and that any other "thing" could easily hold as much value if you so chose. Of course, as another poster mentioned elsewhere, there are many more forces external to the primary parties, who create intense social pressures that most women are not likely to ignore.... Thus, we ultimately bought rings, one with diamonds. Further thoughts on this issue withheld to provide the following info:
After seeing the documentary from the Guerilla News Network called The Diamond Life on issue 2.4 of Substance TV, I am now wishing I had looked more carefully at where these diamonds we bought came from. The situation surrounding "conflict diamonds" is astounding to say the least, and this video slams that point home in a very disturbing and enlightening way. I highly recommend anyone who thinks they need diamonds for some reason to watch this thing.
As far as alternatives to a "real" diamond, my wife has briefly told me about an artificial, lab-created diamond called Moissanite, which is apparently created from carbon crystal, thereby making it quite similar to real diamonds. One place to find out more about this is at www.moissanite.com, but I don't know if that's the official source of this material. Entering the term into Google reveals many links, but I'm not the one interested in this stuff, so go there for yourself if you'd like.
I, for one, really like the idea of things like this being created artificially. It seems to me that a perfect diamond is certainly as beautiful as a perfectly similar replica... and nobody has to die so my wife can have one.
PointlessGames.com -- Go waste some time.
MassMOG.com -- Visit the site; Use the word.
Tell her that diamonds are in essence worthless, it is a manufactured 'ideal'--DeBears (the cartel, ...) commonly deposits thousands and thousands of diamonds below paved streets throughout Southern Africa.
They are overvalued, and it is realistically just a manufactured 'dream ideal' rather than anything substancial... like a white picket-fence home with two and a half children; get her a plain but unique ring or emerald (most rare) ring.
Or her birth stone, or something... but don't by from DeBears at least. There is some canadian company which sells diamonds mined/sold ethically (search on google).
Honestly. With so many divorces that happen all the time me and my girlfriend just decided it would be better to live together. Why do you need a ring - you could use a necklace just as easily - if you really want something to last forever get a tattoo. I don't see any reason to get married/use a diamond ring - save if your a religious person (ANY religion) and its considered "tradition" although EVERYONE has there OWN "traditions". If you must go diamond though make sure its worth it - because a lot of women DONT give back the ring if you/they change there minds.
Ave Molech Setting
When you buy a Ti ring, make sure you don't get aircraft grade Ti or any of the other super-hard alloys that are commonly sold. Stick with pure unalloyed Ti. If you have an emergency and are wearing an aircraft-grade Ti ring, many E.R.'s won't be able to easily cut it off.
1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Sadly, given your description, you have little choice. You *have* to give her a diamond because its what she wants and thats something you don't want to let fester for 20 years. Just accept that its not about you and concentrate on what you can control. Having said that the two months salary thing is a load of crap. Maybe it should be something more like "what kind of payments can I afford for about a year" (don't carry too much of the payments into the marriage). You can pick the diamond first to get the best deal. One small word of advise, a small cloud in an otherwise flawless diamond is harder to see than an imperfection. View of the cloud will be obscured by the ring itself. Don't kid yourself she *will* see it, but she will likely appreciate a larger stone with a small cloud. If you can let her in on the selection process you can reduce your shopping pain and she will be more proud of it (because she won't let you screw up). Let the moral thing go, DeBeer's can bring a lot more pressure to bear on blackmarket diamonds than you can, you can do a lot more just being a happy, voting, capitalist, technologically savvy, family man.
All the best,
Estaban
Heh. I bet you think this is the worst of it. Does she have long beautiful hair? Say bye-bye to it by the third year. Enjoying a regular sex life? Watch that vanish like free tchotchkes at a convention. Got any interests of your own? Fuggedaboutit.
Jack
1. Ruby
2. Emerald
3. Diamond
4. Sapphire
...and is the value in order from greatest to least for the expensive faceted stones in the 4 C system. As for your GF, I have been told by several women that they will drop clues as to which specific ring to buy by pointing it out and expecting you to remember.
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
you want a ring that says "DAMN!!!" to her and to all her friends and doesn't need a diamond... and you'll feel good about cause you blew a small fortune... then simple...
!!!!!!!PLATINUM!!!!!!
Plat looks amazing and is expensive as all hell... you'll feel good about it, she'll love it, and her friends will drool over it... win win
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
I can't browse with them. I can't compile with them. I can't make coffee with them. I can't play ....umm.... why would I want them???
mp3/dvd's with them. I can't eat them. I can't fsck them. I can't wipe my a$$ with them
Never buy a diamond as an investment. The only exception to this is antique diamonds. The signature of the diamond and any inclusions or flaws it has can point to the mine it came from. Some mines no longer produce diamonds and thus antique diamonds from such places are worth much more, on the collector market.
Another exception to diamonds, and a really beautiful alternative, is to try colored diamonds. Yellow, Red and Blue/BlueGreen diamonds are SPECTACULAR. Super bright and super colorful. Additionally, their rariety is greater thus it puts it out of the normal diamond market and into collector stones (but be prepared to pay alot more).
The basic premise I'm going by here is that, regardless of your love intent etc... you also want the purchase to get more valuable over time (much as your love will grow), as opposed to being a loss as soon as you leave the store.
Another possibility is that you use minimal diamonds, for their sparkle, along with other rarer gemstones. Alexandrite is one of the rarest now (especially color changing alexandrite which shifts from red to green depending on whether your in natural or artifical light). Most of the mines are completely mined out - and the remaining mine only produces smaller and smaller stones, so any alexandrite would probably be a great investment (until, that is, a huge undiscovered alexandrite mine is found). Likewise for tanzanite - which has a horrid series of stories about brutality in the mine industry (though you can say that about all gemstones, including diamonds).
Finally, consider not using stones at all. When I got married we found a metalsmith that took gold and crafted it into mobius strip wedding rings (one-sided one-edged rings)... they were outstanding, and rather comfortable as well. No stones, but certainly one-of-a-kind and chock full of all sorts of hidden meanings (and the two rings together cost a paltry $90 - in the early 80's).
I got my wife a custom made ring with amathyst. It was carved as a snake eating a flower (with amathyst inside) and another snake holding it. For reference, check out the Silmarillion; Ring of Finrod Felegund.
I drank what? -- Socrates
An engagement is a once-in-a-lifetime event; save your consumer ethics for more trivial occasions (anniversaries, Christmas, etc).
Absolutely. Be proud of those ethics so long as they don't really interfere with anything you care about.
Nope, no sig
I'm surprised I haven't seen this one mentioned yet.
Moissanite
Synthetic gemstone made of silicon carbide. Similar to a diamond in toughness and beauty, so much so that many trained jewelers can't tell the difference. Also costs about 1/10 as much.
Rumors say that some jewelry stores will literally throw you out if you ask about Moissanite. DeBeers sure as hell doesn't sell it, but a quick Google search turns up many retailers who do.
Never approach a vast undertaking with a half-vast plan.
it's funny you should mention about diamonds, I was reading slasdhot when I saw a comment with this link: Glass with Attitude, an interesting article about the truth with them, something I never realized before. Interesting read..
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
Figure out which stats she wants to improve, and then choose the appropriate stone. Of course, some of them won't actually form rings, so you do have to kind of fudge a bit.
Make sure you enchant the metal first!
Good luck!
If the girl wants and expects a diamond, you better get her one. You *do not* want to hear about it the entire time you're married, and when you get divorced you won't have anything to either hock or haggle over. Sure, it's a bogus tradition, but you prolly got her something for Valentine's day, and I bet you got down on one knee to propose. Sorry dude, I'm with you, but in reality you gotta get the rock.
Never argue with a man carrying a water buffalo
I never bought my wife an engagement ring. In fact, I was the first boyfriend she had that DIDN'T ... we've been married 7 years, and I don't want to jinx it now!
meh
That's what I did -- go to a reputable jeweller and ask to see engagement settings. They'll have hundreds. Then ask to see loose sapphires, and be prepared to put up with the "A Diamond is Forever" horse-puckey. At the end of the day they can set essentially any stone into any setting. Of course, I had my love with me at the time, and diamond-alternatives were her idea. I got her exactly the ring she wanted, with exactly the stone she wanted, and she said "yes."
Reading over my shoulder, in fact, her comment is: "ASK her what she wants FIRST. You don't want to get her a ruby and find out she hates them or something like that." Once again, my better half cuts to the heart of the matter in 1/10th the words.
Discuss it with her before hand -- not just the ring, but the whole idea of marriage: what expectations you/she have, etc. Good luck brother!
Get a lump of coal and stick it up her butt or yours.
"Go into the hall of mirrors and have a bloody hard look at yourself" - HG Nelson
It is planted in one of our city parks, is professionally cared for, and has a sign that declares My Love to Her. A ring would have been cheaper. The tree cost $6000.00 which would have bought a very nice rock.
Our wedding was under the tree. We are planning to buy a bench to place under the tree as soon as the city allows.
Get a free ipod.
How about getting her a cheezy little diamond, for which the cartel won't get much, and a nice big expensive sapphire?
It was easy really. She designed the rings, had them made by a custom jewler and used a cubic zirconia for the stones. The personally designed rings mean a lot more to us than the stone. I can't tell the difference anyway. Don't buy into the diamond hype, but make sure she agrees. Don't do the zirconia and tell her it's a diamond.
Asking a few thousand of his closest friends for suggestions, before going to her for that discussion, is a very useful thing to do.
But note that a gentleman will NOT discuss the actual relationship itself - either during or after - in a way that will reveal a lady's secrets or reflect badly on her.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Then we happened on a place where the sales guy told us to look at loose stones rather than set ones. The reason is that loose stones are kept in little paper envelops where the price is written (in pencil) on. When the prices change they just erase or cross out the old price and write the new one. What does this mean?
At the time two months salery for me was about $1800. The one thing about loose stones is that, when the jewlers are pricing them (daily) they occationally make mistakes. Sloppy writing or just dropping a digit are not uncommon. The stone we ended up with was one of those. It's proper price was supposed to be $1500 but someone forgot to write the "1". This meant that I got a .45 K with great color, cut & clarity mounted on a very nice gold setting for a grand total of $560. A year later the ring was appraised at $2650. (OC, you do have to be careful as that missinf digit could end up on another envelope).
Find a good, reputable diamond mertchent and check this out. It could be well worth the time.
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
I know a number of couples in this category who've just gone cubic zirconia.
Cubic?
I can't even afford quadratic!
You know where you are? You're in the $PATH, baby. You're gonna get executed!
A deeper examination of the relationship may be in order. I'm not kidding. Humor me for a moment:
He's obviously socially conscious and aware of the fraud and criminality behind the diamond trade. Yet she really REALLY wants a diamond. WTF? This isn't about diamonds, it's about core values. And I can't believe that so many of the allegedly justice minded slashdotters are saying, "It's your future wife, just get her the diamond." What if she wanted to keep a slave around the house and lock him or her up at night?
Those diamonds (mostly) represent death and despair. I would refuse. I don't care what the consequences were. Give her a plain wedding band, I say, and cherish the bond that it represents. If she MUST have that rock... WORRY.
You should probably ask my ex-wife.
Now, if DeBeers ever falls apart, diamonds will be worth about as much as it costs to put and polish them.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Don't pawn it, sell it.
That there is no opinion/post on this article from an obviously female perspective. Interesting that.
you idiot do you even know what you are talking about...?
For loads of alternatives, discussion of the tradition, etc. from women who DON'T all demand a giant rock on their finger:
www.indiebride.com, in the "kvetch" section
Find a 2 or 3 used diamond rings, take them to a jewler and have them turned into a single engagement ring in a custom mounting. Remember, they have little resale value, so you can get the source rings cheap.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
I know there are some people who go for the alternative side. We certainly like to try to spend our money in ways that have the most benefit.
The principle behind the diamond is to symbolize your commitment. You're telling her that you want to spend the rest of your life with her. Resale value? Are you sure that marriage is the right next step? Perhaps there are some more conversations to have.
I've been proudly and happily married to the love of my life for almost 2 years.
Better quality diamonds are able to be man made for cheaper. But, a good jeweler won't serve them. Volunteer to make up for your conscience. Show your love by finding a good jeweler, being honest, and buying what she deserves. First, find out why you're worrying about resale value and take care of it.
I agree, diamonds are a scam. But, how much do we spend on video cards and cpu upgrades that don't last any time and only offer a minor increase?
This is something she'll have FOREVER. Just buy it and consider it an investment in your future together. My wife has a small diamond that I bought when I had no money and she loves it as much as a huge diamond that cost a mint... It's the thought that she wants.
if you are buying a diamond for your fiance, why do you give 2 hoots about the resale value?
Let me preface this by saying that I'm a GIA certified gemologist as well as a geek. Diamonds have been a racket for a long time, and nothing has changed. I hate watching people spend their life savings for chip of crystalized carbon, but it IS tradition. Have you talked with your fiance? How does she feel? Why are you worried about the resale value -- you ARE planning on being married forever, aren't you? In all honesty, if she wants a diamond to show her friends, bite the bullet, mutter at the unfairness of the universe, but get the diamond. A few thousand pales in comparison to the long-term costs of maintaining a family. DON'T get a fake - it will, at some point, get tested! (I used to have newlywed women come to the store all the time for "appraisals" - sheesh!). If your girl is not the materialistic flavor, there is hope. I highly recommend colored stones, but talk with a good gemologist before buying. Many stones are too soft, or have too many cleavages to work well in a wedding ring. In my case, my wife wanted a diamond, but was emphatic that it not be too large (big stones and mountings tend to be uncomfortable and snag on everything). After sounding out her feelings, I purchased a second-hand diamond ring, and revamped the mounting (incredible savings, as you have noticed, the secondary market stinks.) The result is a lovely ring that is exactly what she wanted, for a total investment of about $250. Since I wanted to show a bit of class, I built a second ring, with a large Tsavorite (a rare green garnet) as a wedding present for her. It has gone up considerably in value, complements her eyes far better than any diamond, and the baroque setting, while too large for daily wear, is something that always gets compliments. So, get a diamond if you need to, if not, the colored stone market is generally a much better investment (particularly if you have a gemologist buddy). Finally, remember that there are several reputable sources for gemstones on the web, and you can buy the stone(s) at near wholesale cost, and have them set by any competent goldsmith. Best of luck!
Only a fool will give two months of his life in exchange for a pretty rock.
In a decade or so, the woman who sells that rock to a pawn shop for 15% of what you paid for it will be known to your friends as "the bitch", and most of them will not even be able to recall her given name. You'll be known to her friends as "the asshole", and they'll know of flaws you never had.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against marriage, my current wife, or my ex-wives, or any of my as-yet unknown future ex-wives.
Still, a diamond meets none of a human being's basic needs, has no true utility, and loses much of its emotional value quickly.
There's nothing more romantic than putting her name on a mortgage.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
Sure it's stupid, but it's her you are trying to please, not yourself.
If you love her, it's her happiness you are seeking.
Right. That's why all those slaves were constantly laughing at the plight of the Irish immigrants, and were really sad to lose those comfortable and prestigious slave positions when that bastard Abe Lincoln had them all fired. Also, those chains were just fashion accessories; deep down, they didn't really want to escape or murder their owners or anything.
The truth is, Irish immigrants chose to take shitty and dangerous jobs for the money, becuase they had just fled conditions of abject poverty and starvation back in Ireland. Blacks, on the other hand, were hauld to America like cargo, lived their whole lives in bondage, doing hard labor from the moment they could walk, and were casually discarded when (or, rather, if) they got old.
I find it a little astonishing that Southern revisionism of the brutal facts of slavery still continue to this day.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Pawn shop.
Genuine antiques without the markup.
And you can always take the stone out and have it put in a new or different setting.
---
Watch out if your jewler wants to cut a diffraction pattern in a used ring to make it new - for free. He gets to keep the gold removed by the cutting process - more than enough to pay for his efforts - and fine surface patterns in gold wear smooth quickly so the effect lasts only a year or less.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
There are other, less oppressive, countries to obtain diamonds from.
Where?
Canada.
What? Canada?
There are only Igloos and Eskimos (Inuit) up there, right?
Not so, there are also Polar Bears.
http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/home.htm
If you're Canadian, buy Canadian.
If you're American, buy North American.
Just a suggestion.
Why is it that the MAN is the one who has to dump $4000 on a ring and the WOMAN spends nothing? If you think that your reward is sex then that is nothing but prostitution and you could use that $4000 for 20 trips to the local massage parlor - that's a whole year of paid-for sex with real pro's. True equality means both sexes are subject to the same rules. Where is my $4000 engagement computer?
Somehow they regain their virginity.
Hearing those in the traditional diamond business talk about the "threat of synthetic diamonds" always amuses me. I can't help but think that if Americans (or, heck, people in general) were more comfortable with the nature of matter (and science in general), this wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.
What I see is that two diamonds, atomically indistinguishable, can be viewed in different ways by the same person. Why? Because one of the diamonds gestated deep in the earth for thousands of years, and the other was created in a lab in an hour two weeks ago. There is some kind of emotional response to really old things that are forged by the fires of the deep... yadda yadda.
Well, what is a diamond? Literally, it's nothing more than carbon atoms arranged in a particular structure. Any two carbon atoms are indistinguishable (assuming they're the same isotope, say C12). The carbon atoms in the synthetic diamond are the same millions of years old as the carbon atoms in the "real" diamond... but the "real" diamond's carbon was down inside the earth, and the synthetic diamond's carbon was tooling around on the surface, probably in the form of biomass for the most part.
So let's say you take one carbon atom from the surface, and one carbon atom from deep inside the earth. Well, they aren't diamonds yet, they're just carbon atoms. Indistinguishable. If you put them in a box and shook the box, when you opened it again, you would never be able to inspect the atoms and tell which one had been the deep atom and which had been the surface atom. So now you take a few more atoms from each location and start adding them to the original atom, to form microscopic diamonds. Let's say each one is formed from 100 carbon atoms. Not much of a diamond, and certainly nobody would care about the difference. Now you up it to 1,000 atoms. Is it a "real" diamond, worthy of emotional differences due to the source of the atoms now? If not now, when? 10,000 atoms? A million? A billion? A trillion?
I think it's entirely a function of recent history that there's any kind of stigma at all against synthetic things that are otherwise identical to "real" things. When we get to the point where the ring-buying population (twentysomethings) has grown up with the idea of synthetic diamonds being just as good (if not better) than the "real" thing, not to mention cheaper, things will, hopefully, change.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
There are diamond mines in Northern Canada (http://www.wholesalecanadiandiamonds.com/ - you can browse and buy online), and you won't be supporting terrorists, slave labour, civil war, etc, etc (though you will be supporting our socialist health-care system).
Of course, that doesn't help if you think we are being force-fed a useless commodity.
For that, go for a small diamond set with other stones (rubies, emeralds, etc). Or go for a small ring and get a pearl necklace.
Or go to your mother and see if she has any jewelry that she would donate and that you could have remade into an engagement ring.
My mother passed away four years before I got engaged. My sister inherited her large jewelry selection, but honoured my mother's request that my brother and I be able to pick out a ring for our future spouses.
If you really want committment, get her to enter into a real contract with real teeth. One that actually spells out severe physical and financial penalties for failing to keep the promises of the marriage vows, including "till death do us part."
Make a legally binding agreement that puts true meaning into the wedding vows and which would bring ruinous consequences to those actions that the marriage is supposed to disallow. Prenups only go so far, and they usually serve to maintain the status quo of an estate prior to the marriage. Never has any real teeth, any real meaning when it comes to divorce.
I doubt there are really any ways to get such an agreement. Pity.
...not even close. Less than 100 years old. It might have meant something - for awhile - as one other poster pointed out; being a safety measure for an engaged woman to have something left even if the man backed out, but now it's all marketing and monopoly tactics.
... If she is, then for the equivalent price of the ring, give her the most bitchin' state-of-the-art piece of computer hardware you can get your hands on.
It'll have to be a laptop, of course, with gigahertz and gigabytes out the wazoo, more pixels and colors then there are Chinese, and more gadgets hooked in then you can fit into the room.
You'll have to install her favorite distro, of course, and lay out the desktops and workspaces just the way she likes it, all of this before she sits down the first time. And get the MP3 playlists set up so the she finds everything she's looking for in no more than two clicks.
But if she's not a geek, well, hm, then I guess you better go get the diamond.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
I'll post this anonymously because a million ppl will flame me I'm sure.
;)
But the thing is, it's pretty, it's regocnized by society, and it's tradition.
You just need to convince your fiancee that artifical diamonds are cool too and they're prettier anyways. Or just get her an artifical one and don't tell her
The marketing campaign has worked successfully on American women. You're screwed. You must suck up all your ethical concerns and buy the thing. It will cost just as much to try to reprogram any one woman of the propaganda that DeBeers has plagued our world with.
come on i almost believed this was a legitimate slashdot article.i was gonna answer that my gal and i have matching sterling bands and that was good enough cause we were poor when wed.i do plan on getting her a rock tho when i renew with her in a vegas ceremony officiated by "elvis"(dont ask)
but i was also gonna suggest contracting a jeweller
to cast a ring with whatever pattern style or ornamentation that means something to you both.
BUT THEN...i hit the link to the politically correct lefty propaganda site and i also see more at the end of the article. hell even i know diamonds have always been popular in jewelry.diamonds have always been kept high priced to make them status symbols.debeers isnt quite as old as diamonds so i can assume some lefty got a chip on his shoulder cause he couldnt keep the payments on his macdonalds pay and his fiance got her ring repoed.very embarrasing.so he
joins his fellow whiners with a cause.not realizing that if sucessful all those poor people who can mastubate instead of pokin poo,will starve along with their familys and countrymen because their economy has gone to shit due to a collapsed industry.but thats ok.lefty will get his Dems to send them aid out of our pockets cause hes sooo sensitive to their probs.what a nice guy.worst of all poor ol flyneye cant get the ol lady a fuckin rock so shell be happy enough to suck the chrome off my trailer hitch whenever i got the itch. and the leftys just bitch bitch bitch.NUKE THE WHALES.gimme my slashdot back and take your pansy bleating to yahoo.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
The ONLY diamonds that have a true value are
those grade certified by the GIA.
Any other stones are up to the whim of the
jeweler to grade them up or down as his fortune
dictates.
The same stone can be appraised anywhere from
$4000 - $25000 by legitimate jewellers. I know,
I inherited a 2 carat grade "G" stone and made the
rounds of the "respected" jewellers with it.
And I noticed that when it came to selling it,
they were all pretty much in agreement... it
was suddenly worth $4000 everywhere, and the
grade was "I".
I went to the GIA... it was a "G", and it was
really worth $7500. And with the GIA cert I
was able to get that, without a problem.
So if you really want to buy a diamond as an
investment, be prepared to drop at least $5000,
and insist on a GIA graded stone.
Out of the dozen we cracked open, we had 3 intact chips. They are really fragile, but I'm sure a person who is not stoned and using a screwdriver, could probably harvest more.
Point is, I think semi-conductor-chips are way prettier than diamonds. The have all those cool colors that refract off of em in tiny patterns...trippy! Any geek chick whose worth her salt would like the eprom more, astetically anyway.
Here goes the karma (and not in that joking 'haha, I'm just saying that to get upmodded'. Read on. You'll be lucky if this comment doesn't go to minus infinity)
Do you drive to work? Do you recycle? Are you a vegan? Every thing you do is going to piss someone off or hurt them. What's with this terrorism bullshit? The last time you bought a dime bag, did you consider that 99% of the cost of it went to terrorism?
Haven't seen it in the 3+ comments, so here goes:
Western nations have been trying for decades to bring some semblance of civilization to Africa. It ain't working. No matter what you do, someone is going to be getting over on someone in some rather heinous ways. The only thing keeping Egypt from a similar situation is the influence of Islam. (It's what eliminated MUCH of the fighting in the middle east as well. That it helped stir up more is not the point).
See, contrary to popular belief, it wasn't necessary for the white man to go very far inland to get slaves. One tribe bonks another and sells off the slaves they can't use.
For shits sake, large portions of the continent are still inhabited by those who commit female circumcision! Fuck 'em.
I have no idea why you assume you'll be screwed by a jeweler. Did you shop around? Get to know anybody? Or were you just a sanctimonious prick boohooing about the poor miners? Hit any estate sales? Pawn shops? There's plenty of places to get a ring.
But I've got a better idea. Just buy her something cheap. Unless she's a total pig, she'll get tired of you and divorce you in a year or so and find someone who has a pair. Or at least someone who will ask HER opinion on the subject.
Next on AskSlashdot: what type of toilet paper do you use? Do you wipe up or down? How does the roll face? Doesn't it bother you that ten trillion acres of virgin hardwood forest are clear cut every day so that you can wipe your ass?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Example: Ammount of tantalum in a product?
Now, if you want to talk about a country like Saudi Arabia, which only outlawed black slavery in this century, or the Sudan, where it is still practiced, yes, the percentages are a little higher.
But, if there's a problem, I don't think it's a hard problem. If you give her an engagement ring that has some meaning -- even if it's a little sappy -- that will be much better than a diamond. She won't be able to show off the size of her stone, but she will have a story to tell, and that's a lot better. A diamond is just a commodity, whose value is a complete illusion. I don't know what sort of racket appraisers are involved in, but they are obviously lying when they value the items.
Coming up with a meaningful ring is hard, though (of course, that's what makes it more valuable to your fiancee). Maybe there's something in your or her family's past. If there's no ring, maybe there's something else that could be set in a ring. Maybe there's some tradition -- ethnic or otherwise -- that could serve as the basis of a design. Even if it's a tradition that only goes back one generation, you have to start somewhere.
Get something custom made by a good metalsmith, and you'll have something with far greater sentimental value than a boring stone. It might not be cheaper -- but you'll be supporting an artist, and not a cartel. (Remember though that it may take a while to get that ring made)
I wanted something a little different for my fiancee and was looking at a blue diamond, but settled on an Alexandrite. It's green in flourescent or sun light and red in incandescent light. My brother and his gf were so impressed they bought the same stone (different setting) for their engagement.
-- Were am I going? And why am I in this handbasket?
If you want another idea, go for Titanium tension set with any other gem. It LASTS forever, strong, durable, unscratable. A marriage shouldnt be a hassel. I for one as a girl got my engagement ring looked down on because it wasn't "the tradional ring." My fiance is dutch so I said let's combine traditions. They just have gold bands. Even though I didn't have to have a diamond, he got me a anniversary ring. If you don't know what that is, it's a small band with little diamonds that goes with your solitare. It was much cheaper and I'd rather have him than the a 4K solitare ring any day :) We are getting Titanium wedding bands cause we want it symbolic of our relationship. I pity the fool that has to to buy a 4K diamond. I really do. I'd rather have a DIAMOND monitor but maybe that is the geek girl coming out of me ;)
I'm happy with my nontradional ring. Beside I've always said, the more expensive the wedding the faster the divorce. Remember Princess Di's wedding and her life? *2cents*
here is some nice Titanium sites,
http://www.titaniumcommitment.com/
http://boonerings.com/
http://www.titanium-rings.com/
Marketing is the act of convincing you to buy something you don't need, with money you don't have, to impress people who don't care.
C8H10N4O2 | Developer > Code
Two alternatives:
One was my choice: a ruby. Real burmese rubies are hard to come by. They have a real value (lab rubies have been around quite a while, and ruby prices haven't dropped).
Burmese rubies also fluoresce under UV light giving them their "fire" especially nice if you go to clubs. My wife wears hers constantly and women LOVE it. Get some diamond side stones so she has a diamond.
Down sides are rubies are denser than diamonds (thus a 1ct stone is smaller) and on top of that they are more expensive per carot.
Second choice: Mosenite. It is basically the perfect fake diamond. Much better than CZ or any other fake.
My suggestion is: If she is a stickler for tradition, buy her a mozenite ring and the money to buy the same diamond. Explain to her why you didn't want a diamond and say we can either use this money for our wedding/honeymoon/house or if it means a lot to you, we can go and get the stone swapped.
If she's not a stickler, go for a ruby/emerald/sapphire (all are the same actual gemstone). Your creativity will be rewarded.
This is what I got my wife. It is a bit more subtle, which means she has no problems wearing it all the time, even when doing minor work with horses, etc.
Platinum bands do not have a mounted stone that can catch on things or fall out. This is a bigger problem than you think.
Platinum is also a truly scarce resource, and its high price is reflected by an open market rather than an artificial scarcity using monopoly powers (DeBeers).
In short, a nice platinum comfort fit band works great.
... pay off her credit card / college loan / whatever.
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
As a woman, I've thought about this extensively. Once I found out about the truth behind diamonds (as in the article), I switched my attention to rubies. Unfortunately, the really pretty ones are all lab-created. Still a ruby in all rights, but it lacks that elusive "rarity factor" - a necessity so well created by DeBeers.
My mother came up with the ultimate solution. Buy from Tiffany and Co. Their jewelry is very well made and has world wide renown, which means that no matter the setting or stone, what you spend is what it's worth, and is probably, at very least, the future resale value. Forget Diamond Blue, go for Tiffany Blue.
I went shopping once, and I found the perfect Tiffany ring, a 6mm ruby in a beautiful platinum setting, for about $6500. This is not outlandish or unreasonable for something one will wear, conceivably, for the rest of our lives, or if you are having a handclasping or pagan wedding, "as long as love shall last." And if love only lasts a few years, chances are the Tiffany name will be enough to ensure you get most if not all if not more out of your ring.
Finally, I am prone to losing things. If someone gave me a ring worth more than $1000, I would probably go nuts worrying about losing it. I would be really grateful if my future husband sat down, said, "I want to marry you, and I have X to spend on a ring, but how would you feel if we bought a fake stone in a quality setting (anywhere from $12 - $700)or an inexpensive ring and used the rest to buy a house/income property/investment vehicle?" I don't know about you ladies, but I'd marry him on the spot, and wear my fake ring symbolizing true love, belief in an everlasting future, and a commitment to providing for our family with PRIDE! I stress that there be another exchange - an investment or future dividend to be shared, at some point. A bride is worth that. A guy who just thinks it's a waste or is a cheapskate is worth little.
But if it's got to be a diamond, at least get it on ebay. Alternatively, have one custom made, and ask that they use *metals* of value, such as paladium and platinum as well as upper-end craftsmanship. That way, regardless the worthless lump of carbon, at least it means something special and retains some of your monetary investment. Love is not to be expressed in dollars and cents and the size of a diamond. Anyone who sees it that way is missing the point.
first, diamonds are the most controlled substance available to consumers. They literally laid scattered across river banks and beaches in Africa, uncut obviously.
If you want to get her a rare gem, try an emerald, 19 times more rarer then diamonds.
If you don't get her a diamond, her girlfriends won't be impressed, and talk about her as if she is getting ripped off. You prbably won't come close to pleasing her mom. now that might not matter to you, but it will for your next marriage.
She may not even want diamonds, but women in American society have a lot of pressure to meet certian standards, getting married, having children and getting a diamond ring.
speaking of rings,don't get titanium. most men gain some wait after a few years, and it will be a bitch to cut off.
personally, I went with white gold, but then I got leperosy, my wife left me, and I started having the damndest halucinations....
Hey, I hope the best for you,and the future wife.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Pawn Shop
Of course, you run the serious risk of loosing all your cool point if she finds out where you obtained it... And worse than cool points-- NO NOOKIE!!!
You need a FREE iPod Nano
I have done research on conflict diamonds for my debate class. I found that if the DeBeers released all of the diamonds they had in stockpile, that diamonds would be worth less than a grain of sand... Keep this in mind when buying a precious stone...
-Thomas maerz HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE
We both have diamonds in our rings. Neither one new or expensive to buy (to replace is a different story). My wedding ring has the stone out of my great grandfathers ring. Hers was also a family stone. I did buy new emeralds however - More expensive than a diamond 3x the size.
Wait... that's not news!
and apparently little has changed. Until the very end, when I saw the copyright, I thought the article had been written last week. While it predicts the end of the De Beers cartel, the evidence is clear that nothing of the sort as happened.
What a moral conundrum.
Just wondering if there is a correlation; Maybe marriage is most appropriate for those with considerable resources, to the extent that the cost of diamond rings would not really be a big deal.
If you're anywhere near New York, go down to 47th street (between 5th and 6th avenues), and scour the diamond exchanges. Skip the obnoxious folks who try to force stuff into your hand and look at the smaller booths with art-deco and 30s/40s rings. You'll see more beautiful antique rings in one place than you'll find in all the antique stores in most cities.
Incidentally, I'm going to plug this guy because he was really good to us when we were shopping (no, I don't get a kickback from him.) The site gives you an idea of what I'm talking about.
My wife and I were married without any particularly formal engagement. Why bother with the formalism -- it's most just irritating anyway. Just pick a date and get married then. Simplest thing in the world.
/* be engaged (short engagement for demonstration purposes) */
/* get married */
It's just about flipping the 'marriage' bit. No need for a thousand dollars of comments. Just
{
sleep(1000);
marriage=1;
}
I wouldn't pay more than $300 for those comments, and I wouldn't use code with more commentary than that. Keep it simple. Marriage ain't rocket (or even computer) science.
--G
Here, the most common (popular sense) engagement rings are just simple gold rings without any gem or decoration. There are rings with a diamond or sapphire, but they are far from being a tradition. Aside cultural differences, I think the main reason is that most brazilian people could not afford diamond rings. My engagement rings cost just about $40 to $50. So, in my oppinion, there is no need of a diamond. But, perhaps, someone in other country will say that is no need of ring at all :-).
Hmmm, diamonds ARE a racket, and women know it. It is the single best opportunity for most women to get a piece of real quality jewelry. Remember that Lady Diana got a large sapphire, surrounded by small diamonds for her engagement ring. Some other stones, if of excellent quality, can be more expensive than a diamond. Think Emeralds and Rubies for that. All in all, I think she might be happy with a non-diamond ring, if it's an impressive enough ring. The trouble you run into then is the wedding band, and how to wear them both when they aren't meant to worn together. Perhaps a wedding band with a number of diamonds, commonly referred to as anniversary rings?
Very, very poor timing on this Ask Slashdot. If I'm going to pledge two months' salary to buy ANYTHING today, it'll be a new Power Mac!
Why? Because a computer won't screw my two [alleged, and now-ex] best friends behind my back, like my last girlfriend did a few years ago. If I've learned anything from my dating experiences, it's that to trust people is to set yourself up for disappointment. I'd rather spend the money on a machine-- they're much more reliable.
~Philly
How is this offtopic? Please - someone with some moderator points and a decent sense of humor click on the link for the picture (it's http://pics.steakandcheese.com/debeers.jpg) - and mod the above up - I don't care about the karma - but would really think a lotta people would find it amusing - and isn't that what moderators are for?
S.t.e.v.e.
I was dead set against diamonds way before I met my wife. Luckily, she agreed that burning half a years salary on something that small and had no applicable use was a waste of money. Instead we opted for multi-metal bands that give the impression of wood grain. Every ring is unique and hand crafted. Here is the link to where we got ours.
http://www.mokume-gane.com/
I have looked in all the FAQs.
I have searched and searched throught the newsgroups, and even used Google's archived postings.
I tried help files.
I asked friends, personal and professional associates, team members.
I have actually gone to the library, and looked through the cards and done research.
I did extensive searches at BN, Borders, Amazon, BookPool and others.
I cannot find the answer. I cannot figure out women!
Buy the diamond.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
Why do we buy diamonds? Is it because they're really pretty? Yes, but if that were the case we'd buy cubic zirconium rings; you can't tell the difference 5 feet away anyway. Is it because we're conditioned to buy them? Partially, though, like everyone has said, it's mostly a marketing gimmick crated in the 40s.
:) That way you won't come off as a cheapskate.
So why DO we buy diamonds? Because they're expensive. DeBeers knows this, that's why diamonds are so expensive. Jewelers know this, that's why they won't buy them back. If diamonds weren't so expensive, nobody would buy them. Because it's rather impractical to buy our beloved a 2 lb hunk of gold, we instead spend the money on a rock with artificial value, as if to say "I care about you so much, I just threw away 2 months salary. Will you be with me for the rest of my life (or until we hate eachother)?"
The moral of the story: Yes, diamonds are probably a bad choice. But it's not what you buy, it's how much you spent on it. If you don't want to buy her a diamond, that's perfectly fine; just find a diamond ring in the price range you're looking at and spend the same amount on say, a platinum band with other precious stones (rubies, emeralds, sapphires, whatever she prefers.) Her girlfriends won't chide her so long as it looks expensive (and it will.) Just make sure to spend a lot of money on it, whatever it is.
Actually the tradition you are referring too has been cultivated over the last 100 years or so. I was adamant about not buying my wife a diamond on our engagement 12 years ago for the same reasons you site. My bride to be informed me that it was not a big deal because the traditional engagement ring is the woman's birth stone. So it is really only a time-honored deBeers tradition.
"as if that wasn't enough, diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch. They'll sell you the shit, but damn it, they're not taking it back at any price."
Always an important consideration as one approaches marriage! 50/50 chance you'll have to pawn it!
DO NOT go into debt getting engaged or married. 20 years down the road it won't matter if you spent $1k or $25k.
Any woman who demands you go into debt should be ignored and dumped because she will keep screwing your wallet forever.
Avoid the mall, they only have over-priced junk. If you're near Delaware I would recommend Janet Grillo, who helped me a few years ago to find a great ring.
Good luck, and happy hunting!
Suncoast Linux - Sarasota, FL
For those that need to cut and past - this is why diamonds are worth it guys! http://pics.steakandcheese.com/debeers.jpg
S.t.e.v.e.
My dad made a pair of copper rings himself, then had them "turned to gold" at the plating shop. Ingenious if you ask me.
As a woman, I hope you will find my advice more useful than just "Buy a diamond, dude."
Why don't you ask her?
Most women would be thrilled with just a beautiful ring - new, old, diamonds, rubies - whatever. I take it she is the epitome of selflessness and would love anything you gave her.
As an alternative, ask her mother, her sisters, and her friends. Most women discuss what their ideal engagement rings would be with each other; this is also a good way to find out her ring size, metal preferences, etc. You may even get hints on *how* to propose to her.
Good luck and congrats!
I was lucky. I married someone for whom funky stuff like integrity, thought, consideration, selflessness, originality were priorities. To her, the traditional goal of "it must be so big I can't lift my hand" was tacky, ostentatious, gaudy, all the hallmarks of a wannabe who needed validation from outside, rather than someone looking for something that had significance simply for what it was.
The end result for us was a third of a carat rub over setting on a really unique band. For her, it's perfect as it comes across as stylish, vastly more sophisticated and, her highest priority, she doesn't spend the rest of her life being scared of knocking a large rock out of a cheap setting.
I still managed to spend a fair bit of money, but that was on: getting it engraved (without her knowing) on the inside; on getting it rush ordered so I could still suprise her, even though we'd chosen it together; on finding the perfect time and place to do the proposing; on getting matching earings made to go with it. Those are all the subtle things that allowed me to put vastly more value in to it for her without buying in to a deliberate, tacky, hype.
So, like I said, it depends a lot on who you're marrying. If the biggest, gaudiest rock is simply the only way to feel she's valued, that's what you should get her - you chose that type of person. If style and the suble touches are what're important, congratulations, you've found someone who's going to appreciate everything you do for her, regardless of how well off you are at the time. That is the kind of woman I wanted to marry. :)
OK, now lets get back to bitching about Microsoft. This is getting sappy!
In debate we always called them "Blood Diamonds". It's a much more forceful term, and one that's sure to make somebody think twice about the whole tradition.
how can you look so analytically at buying a diamond but still consider marriage? Neither make sense. You'd be a jackass not to buy the rock. It's not like you have to buy one every year, every other year, or ever again (unless your planning on your marriage failing), just bite the bullet bro.
From a geologists point of view the rock is nice and for the rest of us, it is nice and they _are rare, but lately the marketing campaign has shifted to include that 'no ppl were harmed or killed in the extraction of this diamond by any armed rebels'
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
(about your sig)
Evidence of absence can't exist. So your sig essentially evaluates to "nothing is not equal to nothing", which is absurd on the face of it.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I got engaged just under a year ago, and I spent nearly 4 months researching rings, stones, reasons, preferences, etc. I ended up buying a custom-designed platinum ring, with a large marquis-cut sapphire as the center stone, and four small marquis diamonds as side stones. I'm extremely happy with my purchase, and there are a number of reasons why:
1) It made my girlfriend/fiancee extremely happy.
2) The work I put into getting it is an expression of my seriousness about the relationship.
3) The money I spent is an expression of my seriousness about the relationship.
The ring is completely custom made - it's my design, cleaned up by the jeweller. Sapphires are my fiancee's favorite stone, so she loved it. I found out that they are the second hardest stone, and come in nearly all colors (mine was blue) (red sapphires are commonly known as rubies). Platinum is also basically the best metal, if you can afford it. It is stronger than gold, pure, has a purer silver color than white gold, doesn't chip (like gold does), doesn't snap (like gold does), and is heavier. The only disadvantage is that it needs polished a little more often, but that is no problem as it is easy and your jeweller will do it for free (if you're still around).
I will also never go back to a chain jewelry store again. I investigated nearly 10 different chain/"consumer retail" stores before deciding to go to a small custom shop - all of them were simply trying to get me to buy a high-margin catalog ring, and none of them really had the expertise they claimed to have to design rings. They all also had high prices for low-quality stones (even after "negotiation"), and at many I got wrong information.
At the small jewelry shop I talked with the owner/primary jeweller, he understood what I wanted and told me all my options. We first found the right stones - there was none of this "buy the ring and stone at the same time" stuff you get at the regular stores.
About that - in any good ring, you're paying for multiple things:
1) The stone(s)
2) The metal
3) The work required to put them together
4) The markup
The primary focus should always always be on the quality of the stone. The metal will be up to whatever spec you decide on (carat for gold and purity for platinum (95-100%)). The work should be at a reasonable price, and you should know that price. Markup is probably 50% over the store's cost, and you don't have much choice about that.
I also learned that there are three basic "levels" of ring-quality stones (and pearls, but that's a separate topic):
1) Consumer-grade/retail stones
2) High quality stones
3) Extremely high quality stones
Don't ever buy a stone in the first category - it's a waste of money. It won't ever be worth anything. The second category is good if you want a high quality ring that will impress. This is where you get into the 4C's and where you maybe begin to actually look at the quality of the cut. Stones in the third category are rare but can be found, and they will increase in value over time. These are the flawless and almost flawless stones, whose cut is perfectly done, that have excellent color in all areas, and are larger than 1 carat (smaller stones of high quality are not that rare).
I ended up buying a sapphire in the 3rd category, and the diamonds from the 2nd (they aren't large enough). The platinum is 100% platinum.
Could I sell the ring for what I bought it for? Probably not. Could I take it to a jeweller, have them take it apart, and sell the sapphire and the platinum? Yep - and maybe at a profit on the sapphire.
In the end, I spent a ton of money, and I'm extremely pleased with the purchase (as is my fiancee!). I think the thing that made the difference was that I went to a small jeweller and talked directly to the creative genius who runs things (make sure it's somebody you like). Try that, and I think you'll also be happy.
You can buy perfectly legal, safe diamonds from the Canadian arctic that weren't mined by diseased workers or slave children and aren't being used to fund wars. If I remember correctly, there's a small polar bear etched (it's microscopic) into Canadian diamonds so you can be sure you know where it's from.
Ok. a diamond is a covelent network crystal
:P
so is another commonly known substance:
graphite
the simple solution is start buying graphite rings for your loved ones... its alot cheaper... and if you dont have a pen on ya i imagine u could rub the ring right off on the paper
The latest survey shows that 75% makes up 3/4 of the population.
> And they're traditionally considered bad luck for romantic purposes because of their changeability
If that had any truth to it, ANY romantic relationship with a female is doomed. *shrug*
They are vary hard, good for cutting glass :o
One thing that does not make sence is how come
they don't loose value when there is about 5t of
them dug out of the ground every year?
Milan
I've bitched about DeBeers as long as I've known my GF. I converted her. We went with lab saphires. Cheaper, pretty, UNIQUE and nobody died to get them.
I would suggest they are *not* worth it. My wife and I discussed this in great length before getting married and we were both very comfortable not buying a diamond.
The reasons why we avoided them:
1. DeBeers created the "Diamond Engagement Ring" story. There's *no* other reason it exists. We wanted something with a more solid tie to our culture and history.
2. Its value is artificially controlled through the diamond cartels. This is less than it used to be, but none the less it still plays out in the price.
3. Their procurement has historically meant pain and suffering for may of the world's poor. Many have killed and enslaved under motivated by the greed for diamonds.
The idea that "If you really love her, you'll buy one" repulsed us both. No one could answer when we asked "why?"
As a result we decided we would do something that was meaningful for us - that tied us to our cultures and had a symbolic value that did not come from a marketing department. We bought each other beautiful gold rings - custom made with the elements we wanted.
With the money left over we traveled (Asia & Europe) to tie us closer to the world in a more productive way.
Sure, my wife has had some people give the surprise look when she shows her wedding ring, but that hasn't happened in a long time. In fact, most people admired our bravery. Since that time, we've come across tons of people without diamonds for engagement rings.
Here's to competition in the engagement business!
There have been some comments about things to look out for when
looking at diamonds, but I wanted to relate my experience with them
and how they can be an experience for geeks.
Back in 95 when the web was still in its youth, my fiance and I
started looking around for engagement rings. We wanted something
special and different, and eventually found the mount we wanted, but
couldn't find a diamond. Ecommerce was new, but thats where I began
my search, and eventually found one that met all my criteria. Several
emails, a search with the BBB, a phone call or three, and an EFT
later, I had the diamond in my hand. Took it to the jewler to put in
the setting, and he offered to put it under the microscope and compare
to the certificate. And then he showed it to me.
I can still remember it. Beautiful, of course. But equally beautiful
was the "fingerprint" the diamond had. I could see each flaw, and
realized I had something unique here. I saw the math behind the
deviation in the cut. Six years later, we re-set the diamond, and I
was finaly able to show it to her under the microscope.
There are plenty of ways to find the geek value in something. You've
started by investigating the background. Theres also the rich
advertising and cultural history from the past 65 years. There is the
atistry of the setting, sure, but there is also the technology. Have
you thought about looking into pressure settings? Nifty stuff.
Theres the hardness issue... the natural vs synthetic issue... and
probably many more techno- or academic-friendly angles to consider.
Yeah, there are issues, and they're real issues, but there is also
plenty in this stone and this ring that a geek can love.
You need to figure out what religion you are.
For example I am Wiccan. I do no need a ring, since Christianity is not my religion.
I was reading through the replies when I realised: what just a sec...! People are giving advice 2nd-hand from their girlfriends! Girlfriends?? That means they're in Relationships! This can't be Slashdot!!
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
What the hell is this? A little desperate for stories today are we?
-1, off topic.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
"Diamonds. She'll Pretty Much Have To."
~Philly
some woman-think here, for the record: a friend at work just got married, and gosh her diamond is purty. honestly, sometimes i catch myself staring at it. but i'm not her, and someone please shoot me if i ever become so. she prances around like a poodle fresh from the salon now, as if she has suddenly become valuable as a person. don't buy into it. if two people are equally saturated with the propaganda, they should get along just fine. but if she is set on a ring and you are ethically against it (cheap is entirely another story), i'd say you two have bigger issues to deal with than just a diamond. i have as many unnecessary purses as the next girl, but i personally would run the other direction from a guy who presented me with a rock, because i want a partner, not a sheep. why on earth would i want the same ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing every other woman has? howabout a secret gift (and an exchange, no less!), just between the two of you? who is she getting married for anyway, her friends?
Family heirloom. Even before my wife and I got engaged, she told me she wanted a ring that had belonged to her great-grandfather's first wife who died in a pneumonia epidemic in 1908 or something. It's an absolutely beautifully detailed platinum ring with lots of filligree, etching and cutouts and a 1+ ct diamond. Appraisers have put in in the USD 6-8K range but I've also had jewelers tell us they couldn't make it themselves for less than $10K.
Smoke one if you've got one. If not, estate sales are a good way to go.
There's one thing computing teaches you, and that's that there's no point to remembering everything.
--Doug Copland
Yeah, why don't some of the women write HOWTOs for us and startup the WDP
Sigs pose an operational security risk and help the baddies aggregate data. I guess commenting does too, oops.
I got married last year and had to get an engagement ring. My wife wanted a simple ring with a simple diamond. I don't have any answers to the ethical questions you raise, but I can address the "I know I'm going to get screwed by the jeweler". You don't have to be.
I got my diamond from Blue Nile, as have two other people I know at work. The diamond was very reasonably priced, and of exceptional quality. I had a custom setting made in white gold (~$500) at a local jeweler. When I took the diamond to have it set in the ring they were *stunned* at the price I got for the diamond given its quality. Comparable diamonds were priced easily $1000 over what I paid for it at Blue Nile.
And you know what? My wife loved it. Absolutely loved it. It was exactly what she wanted.
(FWIW I checked bluenile.com and didn't see anything about whether they have ethical diamonds. It might be worth calling them to find out.)
C'mon now - this has nothing nerdly.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
It's a status symbol, simple as that. Make sure you choose a honeymoon destination that is "cool" and acceptable to her friends also /sarcasm
:)
If she wouldn't marry you with the ring pull from a coke can, if it came to that, then you should question if she is right for you!
I went through the exact same conundrum about 6 months ago. I hate the idea of spending that much money on something so meaningless as a diamond as much as my fellow geek and share a similar distaste for the idea that De Beers has successfully forced a large part of the worlds population to act like mindless sheep based on their marketing tactics.
However, the bottomline was that there was no getting away from it. In general, girls want to receive diamond rings from their fiance-suitors for the following reasons:
1. They can use the diamond to show off to other girls. Women like to brag about how much their fiances love them and diamonds are somehow a sign of that. The prettier and bigger the diamond, the more they have to brag about.
2. They see it as a sign of how much you are interested in them. How much money would you be willing to spend on them is how they guage that and unfortunately the diamond is one of the measures they use for that.
3. Diamonds are pretty and they like them for that reason.
4. It's "tradition". Their dreams of prince charming have always included a nice diamond and if you hope to be that prince, you better play the part with the diamond.
I caved and split for the cash.
Let me warn you, however. The diamond is not the end of it. It's only the beginning. I figured I'd spend a load of cash on the diamond and that would be the end of that. Almost from the minute you get engaged, starts the big wedding planning ritual. Thanks to mass-brainwashing by media, their mothers and their friends, women seem to believe that it is very important to have a big, pretty wedding that everyone and their aunt is invited to.
Somehow, they place it at a higher priority than, say getting the down payment on a house. And then there are the magazines. There is a whole industry around wedding magazines, wedding stores and wedding supplies. It's a finely honed marketing machine which has one objective: Get as much money out of you by
Mmmm.. Donuts
Probable response:
"Child warriors? Smugglers? Musky dark dusty mines? Sounds sooooo exotic and romantic, darling. Can't wait to get one!"
Table-ized A.I.
It's my favorite stone. In a high quality it is more expensive than a diamond, It's harder to see flaws since it's a color stone, and as far as I know it's still the only naturally occuring color changing stone in the world. The majority change colors from somewhere in the light blue to dark purple depending on the light. When your fiancee goes showing it off she can say that you love her more than a diamond.
Yea yea I used to be a jeweler, now I'm a Linux nerd, don't ask.
I don't get it.
If you take the two to 8 grand that some of my friends paid for rings and put it towards their houses instead the would have been much better off in the long run. How much? something like $50,000 or so at the end of the home loan.
I agree with your reasoning against buying the diamond. Of course, I'm a single guy.. Here's my 2 cents.
We all love material possesions, especially when we've been conditioned to expect them. Women have been conditioned to expect a diamond before marriage (in America), just like kids are conditioned to get toys on christmas. Maybe it would be a good idea to do something equally magnificant.. not necessarily as expensive. An extremely creative and/or flamboyant proposal, combined with some sort of ring (not necessarily diamond) might do the trick. Maybe something that requires a lot of personal work that shows your feelings and commitment. Blow her mind, so that she'll not soon forget. (But don't get arrested!)
Whether or not the above is a good idea depends on the woman. Her friends will wonder why she didn't get a diamond, she may be embarrassed about it sometimes. That's why you have to give her a good story to tell when they ask her about the ring.
One more argument which may or may not apply to you- avoiding debt is as much of a gift as a diamond, IMHO. (I'll not rant on the evil of usury now, however..)
Keep in mind that my advice may be total puke if the girl really wants a rock.. Only the greatest hippy chick would settle for something with less $ value and more emotional value, and not eventually yell at you about it.
Ok, I feel pretty strongly about this one.
Ultimately, I REFUSE to buy a diamond for any reason ever. Simply put, you can never be 100% sure that your diamond came from a reputable source, or if it was harvested by a young african child hundreds of feet underground, whose arms were cut off that day because he didn't fetch enough. THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.
So I guess the fact that my girlfriend's friends will tease her should come before that, right? I probably don't love her enough if I think that the well being of impoverished children is more important than buying her a rock her friends will envy.
I'd sooner buy a $2000 ruby than a $100 diamond, so it obviously isn't that I'm cheap. But I guess I'm lucky, because I have the luxury of having a conscientious enlightened girlfriend who understands my point of view, rather than a shallow, petty woman who would rather just have a pretty rock.
Ultimately it's up to you, and you're the one who has to live with your decision. Since you've already presented all the evidence, if it's still even a question, she probably will only care about the rock.
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
... should be down to you and her, no one else!
You've explained your thoughts well, get her true, ideas, really talk about it. None of us know her, how can we answer? If it truly means a lot to her, she should tell you. Discuss some alteratives, it may be that she finds there are non-diamond rings she'd prefer anyway. I know plenty of girls who don't like diamonds. And she shouldn't chose somethign just because of what society says is correct, she should be able to get a ring she'll really love, herself. If that means a diamond, then ok!
I liked the idea brought up of getting a Canadian diamond- I'm into fair trade and such, and obviously wouldn't want to help finance terrorism or other violence, so if she DOES want a diamond, perhaps that's the way to go. An antique ring or diamond is also a good idea, though despite what was said elsewhere, they can be extremely expensive. My sister has a platinum ring, from the 1920s, with a one carat diamond, and then something like 50 small diamonds in the setting. Not only was it incredibly expensive, but probably more expensive than a new, similar ring would have been.
Platinum rings. White gold. Other gemstones. Nothing beats rubies or emeralds in my book.
:D]) that would be the way to go.
:D"
A friend of mine recently got married, and he and his wife have TITANIUM wedding rings. They're the lightest, shiniest, most beautiful rings I've ever seen. I was instantly jealous, and my GF agreed that if we ever got married (since we believe that marriage as an institution is only worthwhile for the legal benefits, really [oh, and the presents
Oh, and being a mountain biker, I thought, "Titanium makes pretty bikes, AND pretty rings. I wonder if I can get a Carbon Fibre Full Suspension ring. THEN I'd be hardcore.
Trolling, flamebait and perhaps offtopic but here goes. It still amazes me how so many sd'ers can be on the bleeding edge of tech but still stuck on tradition when it comes to relationships.
I can only assume hardDiamond has serious issues with diamonds or why bother us? In which case, how can your fiancé respect you if you cave in on your convictions?
My suggestion is if a diamond matters that much to her, she can spend 2 months of her earnings toward what ever she likes. If that doesn't put things into perspective to her, I'm not sure what will.
How interesting that this subject comes up just a few days shy of my 15th wedding anniversary.
When Richie and I got engaged, it was back in the day when South Africa was ruled by the Apartheid regime and Nelson Mandela had been doing time for longer than I had been alive. I told him "no diamonds." We went to a local lapidary shop where they had many different options for stones and picked out a sterling silver setting for it. I chose a diamond-cut quartz crystal. It was beautiful, the ring didn't cost much at all, and after someone assembled it Richie proposed to me in front of everyone in the store. Got on one knee and everything. Priceless. Everyone applauded.
However, that ring was short lived. I don't remember exactly how I did it, but the ring's setting got bent and I lost the stone. It lasted only a few months.
Next, sometime around Christmas that year, there were several small jewelry carts that set up in the local mall. One had a ring with a great-looking amethyst point mounted on it. Not too expensive, looked cool. We grabbed it. The ring lasted for about a year before the amethyst point worked its way loose. I Krazy-glued it in and it stayed in for a few weeks more before I lost it for good.
Richie was upset, I was bummed. Two rings given, two down. I decided the next replacement for the engagement ring would not have a stone, tradition be damned.
That next summer I found a sterling silver Claddagh ring. Traditional Irish love token. Symbol from pre-Christian times. Very appropriate. Very cool. I've had it ever since.
Anyway, even with Apartheid over, I wouldn't touch diamonds if they were...well, diamonds. For one thing, I'm not crazy about them aesthetically. I'd rather have a blue topaz or a sapphire or a ruby or emerald or even better, a fire opal. For another thing, unless you can make darn sure where you are getting them from, you could get them from terrorists or Russian mafiosos or any number of other unsavory folks.
And most importantly...I would rather spend my money on geeky stuff. Save that money and get something I really want...like a DVD-RW or a Radeon AIW 8500 video card.
If your intended is a geek grrl, get her something she'll really want. If she isn't...well...maybe that diamond is kinda mandatory. Check up on the provenance of that rock...there are Canadian stones from the Yukon Territory strike that have a polar bear etched next to the laser-inscribed ID. There's nothing morally reprehensible about the Canadians, last time I checked.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
My wife and I are both metal smiths and I made her engagement ring, and we (mostly me) made our wedding rings. We chose Mokume Gane (think damascus steel done in precious metal, or samurai sword construction)
There are master's of the art Steve Midgett http://www.mokume.com and James Binnion http://www.mokumegane.com
Additionally, there are dozens of less famous artisits that provide this service.
*A)bort, R)etry, I)nfluence with large hammer.*
Oops! I am missing some points...
:-)
So there are engagement rings and wedding bands? I miss translated the term, I think.
Another difference: most people here use just the same ring: when it is on the right ring, is a engagement ring, and when it is on the left hand, is a wedding ring...
But there are rings for silver/golden wedding. These are becaming rare
Get her what SHE wants. Who cares about you? It's her day to feel special.
1) Pawn shop. You would be amazed at how many Diamonds are there. See the pawn shop FAQs for information on how to shop there.
2) Non-mall reputable dealer. There are a few of these around usually in some hole-in-the-wall shop. I bought my wife's diamond from one 6 years ago -- they had a 1-year money back warranty that they honored for a friend of mine without a problem, and were much less expensive than mall stores.
Whatever you do, buy a certified stone -- it's the only way to get an objective measure of the 4 C's which you can use to compare prices among jewelers.
Whatever you do, stay away fromt he stores in the mall. Their overhead is higher, due to rent and glitz, their return policies generally stink, and they often employ people who don't know what they're talking about.
As soon as your girl friends friends hear that she is getting married, the marketing will explode. Even Mother Teresa would have crumbled under the onslaught.... She is going to hear "It is your **special day** that comes only once...". Even if this was her idea (which it wasn't), mere mortals will not resist the crushing peer pressure. How many times is she going to hear "Oh, lets see the ring! Oh, it isn't a diamond - cheap bastard". You don't believe me, send her with her friends to a bridal fair.... My suggestion is to give her the credit card, whatever she spends is worth not having to be there.....
--- I would prefer a prehensile tail....
I got Married 3 months ago. I talked very closely with my future wife about every aspect of our wedding including the ring. I was lucky that she wanted the same thing as me, Gold without the diamond...
We are Dead Stars looking back Up at the Sky
Ask Slashdot: Vagina - Is It Really Worth the Effort?
To paraphrase what someone said on IRC about this story, stupid slashdot reader, buy her the fucking diamond.
heh.
With at least a 500 rating preferably.
"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
My wife didn't want a diamond. She didn't feel comfortable wearing something that expensive. I got her a three piece claddagh with a nice green stone. The first part has the clasping hands, which stands for us being together. The second part was the heart, which held the stone setting which stands for the engagement, and the last part is a plain gold band that we used for the wedding ring.
She loves irish stuff, and that meant more to her than any diamond.
My wife asked for and received trillion cut emerald. She loves it and still gets many compliments on it.
I must confess, I have no idea about the politics of emeralds. Probably similar, but not as bad as diamonds.
I got the diamond ofr my wife's ring from my mom. My wife (fiance, at the time) knew it and didn't mind. She's now of the mindset that she does not ever want another diamond due to the issues brought up and that's fine with me.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
First, assuming you buy a diamond that isn't a "conflict diamond" (try Canadian diamonds) then most of the diamonds produced on the planet are controlled by DeBeers... the international diamond cartel. Diamonds would not be pricey if not for the muscle (most of the diamond ads you see are DeBeers funded) and their tight control of the world supply... the Russian's had the potential to change the market after the USSR collapse, but DeBeers applied pressure and it became a non-event.
Diamonds and drug trafficing are run by similar people, people who just want to make money, however in the case of drugs the price is do to government meddling, and not corporate greed.
Diamonds are ridiculous... the consumerism around them has NOTHING to do with love or commitment.
Find a local artisan to create a ring in silver, a custom and unique item... donate some money to charity in the name of your partner.
As for the generalizations that not buying a diamond would indicate less love, DeBeers has succeeded in brainwashing many of you.
I hope your partner is not so naive, materialistic, or shallow that such a thing should matter.
Firstly, you could buy her an antique ring at a trade jewelry auction. That way, you aren't paying more than the real market price and it will have a resale value -- especially if you buy a piece by one of the name houses like Tiffany or Cartier.
Alternatively, if you wanted to be more romantic, you could by the stone wholesale (places like Amsterdam, London, Antwerp, New York all have wholesale gem dealers) and commission a craft jeweller to make a ring for you. That way, you're investing in the arts and not just buying a piece of crap from some box shifter.
We've been happily married for 12.5 years, so it worked out fine. She picked out the ring. Result: a nice ring for a couple of hundred instead of a few thousand. I would have been willing to spring for a diamond if it was really important to her, but it wasn't.
It worked out this way because we were already living together, were on grad student "salaries" and any money spent would be, in effect, our money not my money.
Marriage is meant to be for ever, why would you want to resell them?? On another note, perhaps a Honeymoon to Sierra Leone is a good way to teach your wife more about the Diamond trade...
--- Why are you wearing that stupid bunny suit? | Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
You can search online through many, many more diamonds than you would ever find in a jeweller, and the price is about 20% less for a comparable stone.
It was very surreal, clicking "Add to basket" for something that cost more than my first car...
Kevin Krajick wrote a book on finding diamonds in America. Information on this book can be found at this link about his book.
Because DeBeers is a monopoly, they are forbidden to do business in the United States due to the anti-trust laws. Directly, that is. They can crush any competition outside the U.S. by under cutting any competitor in prices. As a majority of the diamonds come from outside the U.S., we still get them from DeBeers, as a result.
Gem quality diamonds are still found in the U.S., one such source is in Arkansas, where you can actually go dig for your own diamonds in places. One of the largest yellow diamonds ever found was found in Arkansas.
Search for mineralogical societies. There are rock hounds everywhere who would love to point you in the right direction to find American found diamonds.
For example, Perhams of West Paris, Maine sells jewelry that was created from raw materials that were found in the state of Maine. Friends of mine got their engagement ring there: a dark blue sapphire ring. The sapphire was found in the legendary (for rock hounds) Newry mines, and the gold for the ring was panned out of the Swift River in Bryson.
Think about this angle: What does she want? A sterile, cardon-copy store bought gem? Or one that her man dug out of the ground with his own bare hands?
Whew! This water sure is cold!
You're missing a "wealthy land owning Southern" between "white" and "family." Remember, all generalizations are bad.
It's not true that diamonds have no resale value, just the crap you're likely to buy at the mall. High grade FL and IF are "investment grade" and have considerable resale value. In fact, diamonds have appreciated faster than real estate (on average) over the past few decades.
Of course the really valuble stones are all one-of-a-kind, either because they are just friggin' huge, or have some other special property, such as being red. About 60 gem quality red diamonds are produced every year, each is sold at auction.
This might provide a useful start for more information on diamonds, as well as other stones that you might consider as alternatives.
One Dozen Roses: us$35.
One Diamond Ring: us$949.99.
Knowing You're A Pussy Whipped Man-Whore: Priceless.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
Not to trivialize this or anything (I'm against buying diamonds too), but this makes me laugh. It seems like whenever Slashdotters don't want to pay for something (e.g. CDs), they find some kind of ethical reason why they shouldn't.
-a
How to rationalize theft.
When I proposed to my significant other, I had a white gold and diamond ring in mind, but I took my other half with me to the jeweler, and I will be forever happy that I did - he didn't want a diamond, he wanted a simple gold band.
So, this just goes to show, do what (s)he wants, not what you want.. Maybe you should talk to her about it first? It may spoil your surprise, but atleast she can look down at her finger for the rest of her life and know she got exactly what she wanted.
I'm recently engaged, and had a hard time figuring out the right amount to spend on the ring and where to get it from. I ended up choosing Jared's (Texas), because they claim that for the life of the diamond you can trade it in with 5% interest on the original value. Of course I cannot find my documentation on this, so I can't state any proof of this, but it's out there. Take a look.
If she really loved you she'd be happier with a FDDI ring...
My parents divorced almost 20 years ago (after 20 years of marriage), and my mother had kept her engagement ring in a box for those 20 years. When I told her I was getting engaged, she gave it to me and my fiance and I went and had it reset in a band that she liked.
Later we picked another stone and had my mom's band redone with it, everybody won in the end.
I completely agree. Who wants to date a girl to whom whether or not you're willing to waste a significant chunk of your net worth to prove it is a deal-breaker? Am I the only one who has noticed that the emperor has no clothes on?
;)
So... Ms. casualgeorge... what are you doing this weekend?
PUBLIC SPLIT ON WHETHER BUSH IS A DIVIDER -CNN scrolling banner, 10/15/2004
...but get her one that looks good enough to make all her friends jealous. Really. Yes, it's an artificially inflated market. Yes it's basically a cartel. Yes there are so-called "blood diamonds" out there. No, working in a diamond mine might not be a great way to spend your day. But all of these arguments fall flat when compared to "ooh, look! Sparkly!" ESPECIALLY when this phrase is uttered by her best friend/mother/sister. Don't let her down; bite the bullet and spend the money IN SPITE of the fact that you know you shouldn't on many levels. Consider it practice for being married. Now, make sure you get an education in diamonds beyond just the 4Cs. www.niceice.com is by far the best place for detailed technical information on diamonds on the web that I found. They speak geek. They also happen to be really nice folks. I bought my wife's ring there. They're in Oregon, so no sales tax. email me if you have more questions. smalloy "a-t--s-i-g-n" jump.net
So the geek gut is like a hemen?
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
"The Kimberly Process, which will attempt to track diamonds to their origin. This is to begin in November."
There was a cover story on National Geographic not so long ago about this. It was about one guy who went all around the world to look at how this buisness works. It was pretty interesting. But fact is, they're not gonna be able to track these diamonds any time soon. They're shipped around and resold and just change hands so many times before they end up in a jewler's shop that you would need to pretty much put a GPS tracking device on each one as they come out of the mine to really be able to track this stuff.
Did you read anything in the articles or comments? They do NOT appreciate. they lose LOTS of value, in real and inflated dollars.
Don't do it. Forget about child labor and all that moral guilt stuff - don't do it because diamonds scratch - she's going to leave it on when you go to bed one night and you're going to wake up in the morning and look like you just had 10 rounds with wolverine!
I have a personal dislike for gold (I don't like soft yellow metals, nothing moral or anything against the metal) and I gave up diamands after having seen the Nova special many years back. When the time came for me to get attached in that way, I was able to talk it over with my SO and I ended up just getting her a custom platinum and white sapphire ring. The stone looks like diamond, so it fools people just looking at it who might otherwise get all animated about it not being 'real'. The weight of the platinum takes people by surprise and gives a very solid feel to the ring, much more than 14k would. We added in a neat latin inscription and some scrollwork around the stone and came up with a ring that was far nicer than most anything you find in the stores. Take the time to talk to her about why, and find a good jewler, preferably wholesale if you can, and you can get any kind of stone you like in something that is what you want for about 1/3rd the price of the retail stores pushing the diamonds. Disclaimer: I do not work for any company involved in this trade, I just like the old union jewlery houses over the mall stores. Where I got the ring made.
is that you don't give her the impression that you're just being a cheapskate. (You aren't, are you?) So take that that bogus 2-3 months of salary figure and spend *at least* that much on something else for her. A different kind of ring or other jewelry, perhaps. A trip to Europe if that's something she's always wanted to do. A couple of friends, who didn't have much money anyway, gave each other bicycles. If she's very practical, put it into a downpayment on a house.
... but it's not about "making sense'. If at all possible, try to pick something that she can cherish for decades. Women like that sort of thing.
... I really just want a ring", or if you know her well enough (and hopefully you do) to pick up on the fact that she's really thinking that even if she doesn't come right out and say it ... in other words, if you sense the least little bit of reluctance to go with some ring-alternative ... just buy the damn ring. Sometimes things that are merely symbolic, and make no *logical* sense, are still the right thing to do.
An alternative that is tangible and that she can keep "forever" has obvious sentimental advantages over a house you'll sell later, etc. After all, it's really about symbolism, not logic. Putting $5k into a kick-ass laptop (for her! really!) may strike you as eminently more sensible than putting the same amount into a ring that has no usefulness and no resale value
And if she says, "I understand what you're saying, but
Cubis Zerconium looks just like a diamond and she will never know the difference. I swear its true! And it is only $49.95!
The home shopping network wouldn't lie would it?
Give her a joystick!
Seriously, if you are really that concerned about PRACTICAL versus TRADITION then why are you getting married?
So, the answer is this. There is no RATIONAL explaination for getting married and there is no RATIONAL explaination behind getting diamonds.
What you are missing here is that marriage is an emotional bond between two people first. Emotions, unfortunately, don't jive well with Rationality. Ask Science Officer Spock, he knows.
So don't think to hard about it. Get the diamond and get on with it. Save your financial fortitude for other matters that are less emotional
I Think This Pretty Much Says It....
i'm sure this is "-ten billion, redundant" but it really can't be emphasized enough
sic transit gloria mundi
I'd rather spend my money on a new AMD system for myself, and lots of Linux books. So I'll wrap up my unwillingness to spend money in a pile of self-righteous condemnation.
Run, sister. Not only do you have a cheap bastard as a fiance, but one who intends on making you feel guilty at the slightest provocation when money gets involved.
And before the response flood comes in, I'll bet dollars to donuts that if diamonds cost pennies per carat, he wouldn't care who gets the money. If that's the problem, buy Canadian diamonds, and shell out the cash.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
a friend at work just got married, and gosh her diamond is purty. honestly, sometimes i catch myself staring at it. but i'm not her, and someone please shoot me if i ever become so. she prances around like a poodle fresh from the salon now, as if she has suddenly become valuable as a person. don't buy into it. if two people are equally saturated with the propaganda, they should get along just fine. but if she is set on a ring and you are ethically against it (cheap is entirely another story), i'd say you two have bigger issues to deal with than just a diamond. i have as many unnecessary purses as the next girl, but i personally would run the other direction from a guy who presented me with a rock, because i want a partner, not a sheep. why on earth would i want the same ubiquitous, essentially unvaluable thing every other woman has? howabout a secret gift (and an exchange, no less!), just between the two of you? who is she getting married for anyway, her friends?
Here is the Prologue
...but be very careful.
"History is always too slow, but it is never kind to those who would hurry it up." -The Power of One
PUBLIC SPLIT ON WHETHER BUSH IS A DIVIDER -CNN scrolling banner, 10/15/2004
For much the same reason I would like to get my hands on one of those fluorescing, seed-crystal-in-the-middle Russian synthetic diamonds, and the earlier production and more obvious the flaws the better. Gee, it would be like having one of Thomas Edisons first phonograph records.
Anyone know if there is a market or a way to buy one?
This reminds me of a show I was watching on The Science Channel some time back. There is a team that mines for Diamonds in northern Canada (ice), and sells them as "Clean" diamonds. No child labor or any of the like -- they are real, pure diamonds, and you can sleep comfortably knowing where they came from.
I'm not sure where to find more information, but I'm sure that if you peek around a little bit, you'll find what I am talking about.
If I ever get engaged, this will be my solution. Resale value is the lesser issue IMO.
Yes, Diamonds will burn in a fire. So no, they aren't forever.
The best thing to do is ask her what she wants. Then get it (If you can afford it). Weddings are for ladies and the ring is part of the "show off" factor. Just life, I guess.
My wife and I shopped aroung until we found a ring she wanted. I'm glad we did -- she is happy with her ring. That's all that really matters.
Don't forget to get them to put a "Marine Cut" on your ring (and hers if she wants it); have them cut 1/3 the way thru the ring so it will break before your finger does. Saved my Dad a finger.
(Offer not valid in some states of mind. Please see dealer for details. Content of this posting are not the opinions of the electrons that delivered it)
I know the topic is engagement rings, but it bears mentioning that a replica of the wedding ring that Brigman wears in The Abyss is available from The Titanium Workshop.
While we're at it, there's that computer you're using. Ever look at where the parts are made? Malaysian sweatshops. Wonder what happens to all those dangerous carcinogenic and mutagenic chemicals used in doping chips? Bet they don't have EPA regulators watching over them. How many third-world children suffer so you can have a computer?
Then there's the matter of your shoes. And your belt. Shall I tell you how the cow with the big brown eyes is led down the ramp into the slaugherhouse...
I'm being only a little fascetious here. The fact of the matter is that you can make an excellent case that monstrous things are done in order for us to buy cheap computers, flashy diamonds, or Florsheims. And it's also easy to find countries begging to be exploited - they call it "jobs" and "hard currency" and "investment." And you know, both points of view are absolutely right.
If your beloved likes diamonds, get her one. Get her a small one surmounted with a couple smaller emeralds or rubies or sapphires. Or get her a big honkin' rock with a massive inclusion and a faint yellow cast - nobody will ever screw a loupe into their eye to examine it. I'll guarantee that the jeweler will give you an appraisal that says it's worth twice what you paid, so you're going to look like a high-roller no matter what.
You have to balance on the tippy-toes of one foot to stand on the moral high ground.
-- Bill
Good ol' Cubic zirconium. Factory made. You can get a whopper for little dough. Don't support the
deBeers. Diamonds are a racket.
Forget the diamond and buy something that means something -- a down payment on a home comes to mind.
www.thaigem.com. They've got a great reputation, and you can get stones there for dirt cheap compared to elsewhere (loose, set, design your own, whatever). They'll also do custom settings if you email them a design, and the prices are great.
:)
Personally, as a woman, I find diamonds tacky on any female under 45. If I ever got engaged, I'd prefer something exotic, like a bi coloured tourmaline set in white gold... but that's me
It's worth checking into though, to see if she's flexible on it. There are so many beautiful gems out there that are just as nice as, and even nicer than, diamonds.
Tradition be damned.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
A few years ago in art class, I made a girl a "24 carrot dime-in-ring" for her birthday. I measured her finger, drew 24 little carrots on a piece of tape and then put a dime in the top (wherever that is on a ring). Probably not the best for a marriage commintment though...
I and my fiancee fully agreed on the ethical problems of diamonds ("blood diamonds"). Instead, because we're both of an SCA-like inclination, we shopped around for interesting celtic designs, eventually settling for the Ceol mo Chridhe (http://www.celtarts.com/R2.htm) from Walker Metalsmiths.
Advantages:
- Cheaper (about $500 per ring (we're giving to each other))
- More ethical (gold is heavily recycled)
- Prettier (in our opinions)
- Testable (we got silver versions for engagement to see if we liked them)
- Much more interesting.
There are also many more rings with other stones than diamonds. Try going with her to one or more ringsmiths and find something that you both like and that matches her and your skin tone well. They don't have to be identical, in fact lots of fun can be had with finding distinct but related designs. Mine will be yellow gold with a white gold edges, hers will be inverted.
Have a spree! Use the Net! Find something you both like! And beware the custom designs, they're expensive.
-Lars Clausen
My fiance and I were also faced with this issue, so can tell you my thought process that went into buying a diamond.
We looked at like this: what traditions do we want to follow when getting married? (we also questioned the tradition of marriage...)
For me personally, rings were not a tradition I cared for -- I would much rather place my money elsewhere. My fiance, on the other hand, is very much a ring person and particularly likes the tradition. She does, however, completely understand and admit that diamonds are significantly over-valued, blah, blah, blah...
So how did I rationalize spending $1000 dollars on a silly diamond ring? I decided that 1) the ring is important to her. 2) it's a one time investment. 3) when I want to go buy a 3000 computer that she doesn't care for, I'm going to want her support too.
My recommendation is thus to weigh BOTH of your priorities. Although the ring may be almost meaningless to you, find out how important it is to her, and if it's important, make the investment. She'll enjoy it for many, many years... (certainly longer than you'll enjoy your $3000 computer :-)
Die Menschen verhoehnen was sie nicht verstehen. -- Goethe.
Everyone bitches about the riaa and mpaa but seemes willing to support the debiers diamond cartel without a twitch.
:-). Do I feel special? Take a guess :-)!
Outside of the brainwashing by debiers and everyone else who makes a fortune off diamonds they are ugly stones IMO. A CZ is much more attractive stone but it is only ONE of *many* beautiful gemstones to choose from.
If you don't think diamonds are common as dirt, take a day and visit jewelers and see how many you can count. Compared to other nice stones, yes they are common as dirt.
Sure get her a diamond, pay far more than a free market would bear and just give her what everyone else in the herd gives and demands. Speicial?
Supporting terrorism is another aspect that should make anyone circumspect about being VERY careful about whatever they buy and only buy after seriously researching it. Ditto with people abusing orgainizations.
My husband has continued to give me many beautiful stones over the years and he knew right up front that the only purposes I considered a diamond good for was for lapidary and industrial equipment.
Espcially lapidary equipment used to fashion real gems and not a cartel marketed tradition. I have a jewelry box full of beautiful and varied stones that I am proud to wear and thourougly enjoy, I am NOT one of the herd.
I also know that he cares about me enough to give me something of real value that required more than hopping down to the jewelers and slapping down the plastic, I was worth the thought and the effort
YMMV...
#1 Get a modest diamond ring in a gold setting, set high. Then when you tie the knot, the wedding band could have a spray of Rubies that encircle the Dimond in a gold setting. Then, at least, when "your" daughter is old enough to have one of her own, she won't think "you" were a tight-wad your entire life!
#2 When that time comes, no one will remember what hapened at the time your diamond was harvested from the earth.
#3 The ring is a symbol for a promice, how much you spend is in relation to how serious "you" feel toward that promice.
#4 I've got more reasons, but I'll leave it at that. Geez.. You must be very young.
You know there is only one ring.
Have you tried Antique Stores? I know it sounds odd but it worked for me and might for you for the following reasons: 1. she gets the diamond she wanted. 2. There's not much terrorism funding from second hand diamonds. and 3rd, like you said they don't have much resale value so It wouldn't break you. Just some thoughts.
My wife proposed to me, with an inexpensive silver ring. She'd prefer something I made myself to needlessly expensive trophies.
If you really loved her, wouldn't you have spent a little more?
Michael
Look at other jewels. My wife likes emeralds and we both know about the violence and cartels. What is her color? Rubys, emeralds, Topaz. Just spend a lot of money and her girlfriends will swoon. Her Emerald ring has a lot of rocks and it's big. Once you walk past the diamond section you will be amazed at what you will find.
I think you should follow the example of the Drew Carey Show. Get your fiancee a Diamondelle (r). They're very common, so they don't cost much. In fact, chances are that the window in the room you're in now is just a giant Diamondelle (r). He he he.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
the fact that you're talking about a "ring" instead of a "rock" tells me you are on the *wrong* track.
forget about the hardware - you want to buy a rock. talk to diamond importers. they should have lotsof rocks for you to look at. compare prices to internet wholesalers - this is THE stable market...
you can get money back for a well cut quality rock; it can even be a decent investment!
Ten years ago, when my wife and I were shopping, I balked at the price of the bauble that took her breath away; a $3000 engagement/wedding ring matching set. She hesitated, ready to go for something more modest, and then the sales guy said something I still can't argue with:
"You know, you're only gonna do this once."
If you have doubts about a *ring*, you're not serious.
are what my lady wants. Her favorite stone is the Emerald and I already purchased a 3ct. stone for her. I plan on picking up the Rubies from a trusted jeweler friend of mine and he will also set all the stones for me (1 Emerald 5 Rubies). Anyway, there is my alternative.
Your actions in life will determine your children's future.
It looks better than a diamond, ask my wife, she's been wearing it for just over a year. They are flawless, the color is almost clear(a little yellow, if you ask me), but the brilliance and color it displays are incredible. The price is about 1/10 of a diamond. The gems one carat and over must be laser etched, so that jewelers can tell the difference! I'm sure a this point, you think I work for them, nope just a cost conscious IBM'r. Check them out at www.moissanite.com, it's worth your time.
Proves committment, and you aren't being a manipulated cash cow for the nitwits selling the rocks.
Worked for us (married 10 days now).
If it had been important to her, sure. I'd have happily had the ceremony nostril deep in a sewage lagoon if that was what she wanted. But between an inert, valueless rock and a down payment? No contest!
...must be durable (won't melt in flame!), have a tasteful inscription to prove authenticity, and (above all) be preciousssssssssss to her.
Something kind of weird, and we used a family diamond ring, which has been used for two generations now. She found this more special, then just spending the multiple thousands of dollars to get something that yes is special, but has no history. Plus it allowed us to spend money on our wedding in ways that were more special to us.
If diamonds are only so expensive because of arbitrary price control by De Beer's and the whole "Diamonds are forever" was just a gig created to create a psychological need for them as symbols of love between a couple, then it's just as easy to break that artificial need with a little education for the both of you. If she still insists on a diamond ring, I would have to take a long moment reexamining her to see if she's really what I'm looking for, simply because I'm not looking for a woman who's concerned with convention.
In the end, though, I believe we'd both agree that a diamond ring would be acceptable simply for the sake of avoiding awkward questions and 'traditionalists' (who just don't see things the way we do) harassing us.
How politically correct...you wouldn't want to offend the guerillas/monsters that kill and mame innocent families and use diamond sales to further their warped causes.
I toured a jewelery manufacturing plant a couple years back and interviewed the head of the company. At least in the US, these diamonds were a major concern for the US jewelry industry...so much that the stores were making the suppliers sign pledges to the effect that they would never buy such diamonds.
The industry term is "BLOOD DIAMONDS" and I think we should refer to them as such in this discuss so as to not minimize or trivialize the effect they are having on the poor people in the regions in which they are found. Repeat after me...
"They are blood diamonds."
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Hymen
--Nameles Spelling Theif
You'd have to be living under a rock to not have known all that by now.
Here's another clue. Mother's day, Fathers day, Valentines day, most of what we think of as Christmas are also all department store and card shop fabrications.
So anyway. I was also a little POed that the woman got this great gift and the man gets nothing, so my wife and I agreed to buy each other engagement rings. We got some nice dark opal rings that can be used as dress wear any time. MOST opal production has local benefits to the miners and local opal towns themselves.
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
stop being a cheap bastard and get her a ring. What is a measly couple of grand to see a smile on your fiance's lips? Besides it will let you go at least a year before she cuts you off in the sack.
"No Comm, No Bomb"
Dude, explain to her your reservations about the corrupt and usurious diamond cartel. tell her you will buy her a bigger house with the money you save.
if she doesn't buy it then get another woman, one with values more aligned with yours.
worked for me.
I bought my wife a antique diamond ring. As you suggest, there is
very little resale value for second-hand diamonds - so they are cheap.
On the other hand, *you* may look cheap if you arrive on bended knee
with a modern second hand ring.
The answer is to seek out an antique ring - the Victorian ring I settled
on was about the same price as a new, modern ring - but MUCH nicer than
anything you could get off-the-shelf - probably fairly unique too.
It's pretty scandalous how the diamond industry has hyped these rather
common rocks though. In a rational world we'd treasure more important
things.
www.sjbaker.org
My mom was happy to give me the ring my dad gave here. It was just sitting in her jewle box gather dust, and he did't mind. At least it was being used. And now it is more then a mere ring from the store, it's a family heirloom now!
Total cost, about $20 for the adjustment to fit.
no
First, get a Certified Canadian Diamond. They are harder to find, but these diamonds are mined in Canada (which has massive diamond deposits) where labor laws are more humane. Its nearly impossible to find a Canadian diamond unless you go near the source or you have a jeweler that you trust.
Second, although they don't have Canadian diamonds (that I know of) the Shane Co. (California, Oregon, elsewhere?) will give you terrific trade-in values on other purchases for dimonds that you buy from them.
They are from Canada and they are tracked by the Government. They have Laser Serial Numbers on each diamond. You can get some info and great deals from http://www.earth-treasures.com
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
"Honey, some loveless geek on Slashdot told me not to get you a diamond. So, really, it's not my fault, ok?"
"BTW, I re-partioned your PC, got rid of Windows, and set you up with free BSD and a Tesla coil."
"Honey? Honey?"
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
come for the naked robots, stay for the zombies
I went the sentimental route. I gave her my mom's engagement ring. Yes, it happened to actually be a diamond, but regardless the sentimentality of the gesture gets some good points.
Those that say get the diamond, are you the same people that grumble about Microsoft's monopolistic tactics? DeBeer's is a monopoly even by US standards, and is forbidden from doing business in the US.
If you aren't the least bit concerned about the whole "Blood Diamond" issue, you the consumer should at least question why DeBeer's stymies the release of diamonds into the market, and floods the market with diamonds whenever some company/nation tries to compete.
I bought the ring for my engagement from miadora.com, and it was an excellent decision. It was a lot of money what I got was exactly what I expected. Unfortunately they're bankrupt now.
My (now) wife lost the ring, and when I had to replace it, the insurance folks couldn't believe the price I got. Replacement cost of the exact same ring was about 40% more than what I paid - no wonder they went bankrupt.
My wife actually educated me on the fact that DeBeers runs the whole show concerning Diamonds. Then, she implored me to buy her sapphires, since she likes them better..
No matter where you go, there you are.
Some personal perspective on the issue:
That isn't very many data points, but I think the lesson is that if the ring selection is more of a personal investment than a shopping effort, it's a good sign. Sure, the ring should have some durable value, but anyone who says only diamonds have value as a symbol of love needs to ponder on the primary practical use of diamonds: an abrasive.
Jon
I think not...(*poof*)
The commercial opens with a distant establishing shot of a verdant country pasture bathed in early morning mists. Cut to a close-up of Steven's smiling face. We see that Steven is animated, his tongue darting out of his mouth and his eyes rolling up into his head. Cut to a medium shot. We see that Steven is fucking the Gateway cow in the ass. The cow turns and looks at the camera and says "moo". Behind a tree we see Teddy, that Gateway ponytail poofster voyeuristically wanking off. Just as Steven is about to cum he blurts out to the cow "Dude, you're getting a Dell!", followed by an explosive orgasm.
Puts a new meaning to the phrase "farmer in the Dell".
Sounds like you're picking the wrong women.
Look, guys--all of you who are complaining about how every girl you've been with wants a rock--examine your criteria. If you're always going after the gorgeous babes, keep in mind that looking that way is practically a full-time job: these women are, more often than not, obsessed with their appearance. And then you're surprised when they want to decorate their hand with a big honking diamond?!
I say basically the same thing to my friend who bitches about how she always dates handsome jerks who treat her like dirt: Stop chasing eye candy. Find yourself a smart person with a great personality who makes you laugh.
The AC's are going to have a field day with this one. I can see it now: "You must be 300 pounds, huh huh huh..." You know something? I'm no Vogue model. But I can make my guy laugh, cook him a killer meal, build him a computer, and do a few other nifty things I won't go into right now, and I told him flat-out NOT to waste his money on a diamond.
It's your choice. Find yourself a geeky woman, or else keep chasing diamond-fixated babes and quit bitching about it.
if everyone else believes something is true, does that make it true for you as well? Most of the time, the answer is "yes," for all practical purposes at least.
This article addresses the numerous ways that the diamond industry has influenced consensus reality to perpetuate their business model. The marketing campaign has been wildly successful: for all practical purposes, most women in the US EXPECT a diamond to be paired with a proposal of marriage. So your gf's desire is real and true, at least from her perspective.
But let's take a step back. The problem isn't with consensus reality- the problem is with the people that have reached the consensus. If you are marrying a woman who allows her desires to be dictated by her need to impress her friends with material objects and is easily influenced by consensus reality, you had better get used to getting screwed by the dealer, because it's going to happen again and again and again.
The great majority of women I have met/spoken with/dated are fundamentally incapable of differentiating between emotional and logical justification. They place as much, or more, value on decisions reached through feelings as they do on decisions arrived at through the use of logic. While expressing emotion is a great feature for making a painting or playing music, it is fundamentally flawed as justification for purchasing anything. I consider anyone who can't or won't think critically to be a broken, ineffective person.
Now take a deep breath, and ask yourself this- Is she Ms. Right, or Ms. Right Now? If buying her a rock stings, just wait till you have kids.
According to the sources I've read and my old geology prof, who was a very cool guy, a good sapphire is much rarer than even the rarest diamond. I always preferred the colour anyway. :)
Liz
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If she wants the ring buy her one.
You will find price varies greatly for the same 4Cs and there are some excellent on line deals. You pick a diamond, they ship it to a local jeweler for your approval and you purchase it if you like it. Antique stores usually have some nice ones in the display. The older diamonds are often of better quality than you can buy now and you can get it remounted if the setting isn't pleasing. Most jewelers in malls etc will sell you the ring for 50% of the marked price, don't be afraid to bargain some.
A rule of thumb the girls use is 'if he is too cheap to buy a diamond, he'll make a stingy husband'
You can get a good re-sale on the diamond by trading it up. Often couples starting out don't have much money and don't buy large diamonds. Any reputable jeweler will take a good diamond in trade for a larger one later.
it's a myth. unfortuantely i am on my way out the door and don't have the time to find the proof, but it's true. i think it's something like 12 or 14 percent of our oil comes from that region. granted that's still a lot of oil, but nothing like the 90% that joe 6-pack american seems to think.
out of those countries we get oil from i do not know how many may be considered shady today. the enemy seems to change every few years. whatever your political views are, the only real constant pal the United States seems to have over there is Isreal and they are lacking the oil reserves that would keep the USA stocked happy. it seems like everyone else manages to upset us one time or another (or they were also too friendly with the USSR and therefore no longer our friend) argh.
ride a bike, it solves more problems than you would ever know.
I'm sure gold bullion is too, let's eliminate that. And platinum, and maybe rubies and emeralds, too. Yeah, we'll show them!
.85 carat, grade E color, VS 1. And that, boys, is a damn fine ring.
Look, a diamond has re-sale value if it's unset. It loses it if it's set, just like driving a car off the dealership parking lot.
And yes, you can still get some of your money back if you go to a reputable dealer (don't go to a chain or the mall, go to family-owned business where the mark-up isn't so high, they have crap and they lie to you to get you to buy) and buy the stone....and then have it set, go together and choose it, make it special.
Get it appraised by the US Gemological Society (or whatever it is) and get on with life.
Yes, it's terrible the situations diamond miners are in Africa, it also sucks for all that child labor in Asia and Central America making your Gap/KMart/Target/Macy's clothes. It also sucks for them not to get you to buy their products so they lose the $5 a day they make.
It's good to have a conscience, but don't let one damn special on ABC's 20/20 do it. Research the issue, give money to the United Way or go to Africa and fight oppression -- but spare me the piddly sanctimonious crap of trying to get out of buying your decent, great girlfriend an expensive diamond.
I'm not believing it.
Yes, I'm female and I chose a
cl.
I may blow some /. karma by saying this, but that Atlantic article is one of the best pieces I've seen linked from /. in quite a while. It has nothing to do with tech or software and can't really be called news for nerds, but it's an eye-opener about how businesses manipulate public perception out there in the real world. If you skipped the article and went straight to the comments like I did, it's worth going back to read the article.
When I married my wonderful wife, she was a divorced mom with two boys. We could have done the traditional ring. But she needed a new washer and dryer. She was dragging everything to the laundromat. It was an easy choice. I took her to Montgomery-Ward and we picked out a washer and dryer and had it installed in a couple of days. She still tells the story, happily.
If you think diamonds are forever, you're going to love the new One Ring model at Sauron's Jewelers (with 1 convenient locataion in the Barad-dur shopping mall, located right in the shadow of Mount Doom).
This ring is guaranteed to last for all eternity, and will grant countless powers as well as being a pledge of your ever lasting and eternal love. When my grandfather first forged this ring in ages past, he made it to last, and it has certainly stood the test of time. What better way of telling that special someone "This is going to last forever?"
Supplies are EXTREMELY limited, so hurry on in, or email DarkLord@mordor.org for this and other wonderful items.
What are diamonds, but hyper-compressed carbon? Scientists are now able to synthesize diamonds in labs. Mind you, I have no idea how that works, if it's practical to get one of those, if the cost's insane; but if not, why not?
:D
If that doesn't work, you could always just find a reasonably-sized/priced diamond, then buy an equivalent price amount of other stones; say, rubies, sapphires, emeralds, one of each, exactly which doesn't matter. Probably, the amount you would have spent on a diamond ring will allow you to get a ruby ring, bracelet, necklace, and earrings; of course, I'm talking out of my ass seeing that I've never bought gems and won't anytime soon, but last I checked diamonds were far more expensive than anything else.
Course, if you're really lucky, your girlfriend will like silver and stone-other-than-diamond better in the first place, based on looks alone.
if she wants one your ethics have no place.. she gets it or your aint getting her =]
I got my gal a saphire ring with two very tiny diamonds on either side of the saphire. It's very nice and she loves it.
You know it's kinda hard to tell a really really good CZ from a diamond, unless you are a jeweler and put it under a microscope. I think some CZ's respond to ultraviolet light, but only slightly so that people can tell the difference. But will she really know?...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
My wife has chosen Moissanite due to a very bad experience with a local mall-jeweler. The certified diamond she bought was enclosed with a "certificate" that, upon checking with IGI was found to be fraudulent. She got her money back only after some stressful discussions with the store. We then saw an article in the Washington Post discussing a "new diamond simulate" by Charles and Colvard. It has all of the same properties as a diamond but is actually more brilliant. The best news is that it is being sold at a fraction of the cost of a good diamond. Since it looks as good and lasts as long, and you understand the political problems with diamonds, including the artificially elevated prices, then Moissanite is a great alternative. Check out some tech details at www.4facets.com/news2000.htm
Barry
I was just searching around and found a place to look at the historical prices of Diamonds and other gemstones located here: http://www.preciousgemstones.com/20YRPRICECHARTS.H TML
Looks to me if you would have bought it '78 and sold in '80 you would be rich!
Just buy her a bag of kingfords charcoal and tell her your love for her is eternal.
Consider this bag of charcoal has an investment of my love for you (for the few million years it takes
to tune into diamonds). DO NOT GET HER CUBIC ZIRCONIA.
First off, just in case she sees this:
.64 carat padparasha (sp?) blood red rubies. Since the wedding, we've add two small 10 stone diamond bands to each side of the engagement ring, and her wedding ring now has a gaurd of square cut diamonds totaling about 2 carats. None of the stones came from Africa.
Hi, SNUGGLES!
When my wife and I got married, I was horrified that the simplest promise was traditionally the monster expensive ring (engagement), while the most valuable promise (marriage) was a traditionally the crappy gold band. So we did it backwards. I gave her a gold band as an engagement ring (that matches my wedding ring) and her wedding ring is a 2.5 carat London Blue Topaz marquise cut, and two (one per side) trillian cut
This wasn't written by me; I copied it off of the somethingawful.com forums.
... because your brother just got engaged, and that ring he gave her was pretty impressive... ... and I'm worried that anything I could give you wouldn't measure up to that. ... and you're 33 now, that's $6000 divided by 47 years of marriage. That's like, $130 a year. You spend more than that on video games.
Actual conversation between me and my girlfriend:
Me: If we get engaged, don't expect much in the way of a ring. I'm pretty broke.
Her: It's OK. I don't need a very expensive ring.
Me [uneasy at the qualifier "very"]:
Her: Yes, it was beautiful! I'd love to have a ring like that!
Me:
Her: Don't be silly. I wouldn't want more than you could afford.
Me: Define "afford."
Her: Two months' salary is normal.
Me [calculating]: Um... wow. That would be, like, $4000. That's a lot.
Her: Gross, dear, not net. It would be more like $6000.
Me: Who makes up these rules?
Her: That's just the custom, honey.
Me: You know that's just a marketing gimmick started by the diamond cartels around the turn of the century, don't you?
Her: Silly. I don't need an expensive ring.
Me: The conversation up to this point notwithstanding?
Her: Two months' salary is normal. It's not expensive.
Me: So if you found, say, $6000 worth of computer hardware on our joint credit card, I could say "Hey, that's not expensive; it's just what computers cost!"
Her: That's different. That would be just for you. The ring is for both of us.
Me: So I get to wear this ring part of the time?
Her: Silly. The ring shows everyone how much you love me.
Me: And what shows everyone how much you love me?
Her: The ring.
Me: Do you see a certain asymmetry in this arrangement?
Her: You should be proud that everyone sees me wearing your ring. It tells the world how much you value me.
Me: Approximately $6000 worth, apparently. Does this mean that rich men value their wives more than poor men?
Her: No. It's two months' salary for everyone.
Me: Ah, so wives are priced on a sliding scale, then, like low-income housing?
Her: I wouldn't put it that way.
Me: How would you put it?
Her: A little money is a small price to pay for something that lasts forever.
Me: You lifted that directly from a jewelery commercial.
Her: That doesn't make it untrue.
Me: Touché.
Her: Look, if you live to be 80...
Me: I don't like that "if."
Her [ignoring me]:
Me: I'm alarmed at how quickly you arrived at that number.
Her [ignoring me]: $130 a year isn't so much for my love, is it?
Me: Well, it's a good deal cheaper than escort services.... OW! OW! Quit hitting; I'm driving here!
Her: You get a lot more from this relationship than sex.
Me: Yeah, the contusions make it all worthwhile.
Her: Baby.
Me: Y'know, this actually works out better for you if I die early. Your yearly value increases inversely to the length of my life. If I only live to 50....
Her: I'm tired of talking about this.
Me: That's because you're losing.
Her: I'm not losing. We're not competing. You told me you couldn't afford an expensive ring, and I said that was OK.
Me: Ah, so it's the "affording" part that's irrelevant.
Her: Stop being so silly. I've bought jewelry on credit before; it's no big deal.
Me: That's the solution!
Her: What is?
Me: You buy the ring.
Her: That's not how it works, honey.
Me: If people look at the ring to see how much I love you, wouldn't it make sense to get the most expensive ring available? You've got better credit than me, so....
Her: But the point is for you to buy it, so people can see how much you value me.
Me: How are people going to know who bought it? Do the salespeople engrave the credit card holder's name on the band?
Her: I'll know.
Me: Well, yes, that's a given.
Her: I'll know you didn't want to pay for my ring.
Me: I thought we'd established that.
Her: I'm tired of talking about this. Forget it.
Me: I'm trying to understand, really. We're supposed to have a token of our love, right?
Her: Whatever. Right.
Me: This token is something you would want anyway, a piece of jewelry.
Her: Honey...
Me: Bear with me. The token is sized for you, presumably styled the way I think you'd like it...
Her: Actually, I get to pick it out.
Me: Even better for my purposes. So the token is styled just for you, sized so only you can wear it. You keep it with you always. Do we both own it?
Her: No, the bride owns the ring always.
Me: OK. So you get a ring that may or may not be expensive, depending on your definition, which is your exclusive property to do with as you please. I get to pay for it. Remember what I said about asymmetry?
Her: So you want a ring?
Me: No. To be symmetrical, it would have to be something I want. A laptop, for instance.
Her: You want an engagement laptop?
Me: That's just an example.
Her: That's not parallel. Computers depreciate; good jewelry doesn't.
Me: Good point. I guess there's no such thing as a ring upgrade.
Her: Actually, they make these things called "sleeves" which you buy for major anniversaries....
Me: Dude, I'm gettin' a Dell!
There was a KQED special on the fact that the technology for creating artificial diamonds has reached to the point that diamond specialists can no longer tell the difference by looking through a microscope and needed to to analyze the cellular structure of natural diamonds to find a distinction.
What I did.
Got married, used her mom's ring that had a chip on it, the setting was bigger than the diamond.
I got a band that cost $70.
We stayed together. On our 5th anniversary we each got each other the bands. She screwed up (I don't like yellow gold, white gold or platinum, she got me yellow gold), but I got her what she wanted. Platinum band, three stone diamond.
She is happy. I'm out a chunk of change, but I'll live.
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
www.4facets.com/news2000.htm
did not work when I tried it.
hmmmm... altoids and oral sex.. I wonder if Penguins make it faster and better :)
Gold is soft. So is silver. Minerals are fragile and frequently brittle.
My brother handforged steel rings for my wife and myself. Surgical grade
stainless steel. (His wedding gift to us.)
They are unique. Nobody else has such a ring, period.
They are durable; a lasting symbol of affection and trust.
They subsidise no industry other than the steel industry. Good steel can
be had from recyclers, if you know what you are doing.
The steel was chosen not to corrode from prolonged exposure to skin, and after
some seven years is holding up fine. It is tough and comfortable, with an
attractive handbuffed finish which no prepackaged jewelry can match in
character or elegance.
Pay some money, hand over some numbers to a company, or put your own thought
and work into it. Which means more?
It's a matter of perceived value, since imagine what a non-techie would say when we pay 100 bucks for a piece of silicon, "it's just sand!!!".
However to us it is not just sand, it represents computation, a way to research, play games, and surf the Internet.
Similarly, although I agree with the poster about the stupidity of the diamond tradition, I also must accept the fact that women give it a high emotional (and sometimes "bragging" and "proudness") value. Just as some men derive fun from finding out about the wonders of the latest sand-based microprocessor, so do many women derive pleassure from talking with their relatives and friends about their engagement and their diamond. A diamond to women is a symbol, sometimes of love, sometimes of money and power.
Bottom line, reality is what we perceive it to be, and if women give diamond a big value, then that is under all circunstances what it is worth.
This is nothing new. Get her a Ruby or some other stone whose demand hasn't been inflated by marketing, if she doesn't want a diamond.
Vote for Pedro
"Southern revisionism "?
Think about it. If slaves were property, then they had value. There would have been a distinct value in 'owning' a slave. Why would you treat something you own, and depend on its returning value to you, badly?
Here's the answer - you wouldn't.
Just as you don't bang the hell out of your car, peoples slaves were mistreated. Slaves were given stable environments, regular meals, housing, and (to some extent) education. You do know that Uncle Toms Cabin is fiction and had a political motivation behind it, right?
As it has been said, other women will expect your fiancee to have a diamond. However, if your wife-to-be doesn't WANT or isn't EXPECTING a diamond, a CZ will be good enough to fool her girlfriends, provided [a] they don't go under black light and [b] your lady friend doesn't let it slip to anyone that it's a fake. They sparkle, they're hard, they look nice.
Put the money instead into property [a house] or a kick-ass vacation of your dreams.
The guy who proposed a lump of coal in a nice setting clearly has no experience with women. A stunt like that with even the most non-traditional of gals will result in a Bobbitting.
"You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
I have heard about diamonds being able to cut glass... I've never actually seen it though.
.. My leatherman had diamonds on it...
I would by my wife/gfriend a diamond... ONLY if it were able to be used in a laser type thing (I don't know how they get used in lasers... probably don't) or a super tool that requires use of diamond to make it super... (a cutter etc)
I just wouldn't want her to hurt herself with it... or me...
Now I just need to get a girlfriend...
Please use [ informative / summarizing ] SUBJECT LINES
Flame me here
Here's two places to buy real diamonds for less than the local jewelry store, eBay (of course!) and HardCarbon. If you buy on eBay, make sure the seller 1) has good feedback, and 2) takes returns if stone doesn't appraise right. Get it appraised right away, it should cost less than $50 to do so. Then your local jewelry store can set your new stone in a ring of your choosing.
Good alternatives for diamond should be hard, (so they don't scratch,) brilliant, and valuable. Real demantoid garnet and real alexanderite are both stunning. Never buy opal in a ring you plan wear a lot, even the triplets with quartz tops scratch too easily. Turquoise, coral, jade, and pearls are also much to soft for ring stones.
Any gem of value is going to create the same kinds of situations which is making you lean away from diamonds. If she really wants one get her one. If you want to avoid feeling bad about supporting the cartels and the slavery then consider another market. Check with your family, grandparents would be great, to see if they have a ring or a stone you can use. I would think your fiance would really appreciate a family heirloom. Even if you end up with just a stone you can have it mounted in a new ring, perhaps even one you and she design yourselves. Find a local jeweler, not a huge chain in a mall, and you'll save some money even if you do buy something totally new.
'Same speed C but faster'
If you care about this issue, one way or the other, I suggest contacting Rep. Royce (above) or Susan E. Rice, Assistant Secretary for African Affairs (sorry - bio only - no contact info on that page) and let them know. I know that most people today tend to be cynical, the truth is that politicians do indeed listen to the people they represent - they have relections to worry about, if nothing else. That's how democracy works.
P.S. If you're going to D.C., make a point of visiting your representative and senator, even if only for the photo op. Their offices regularly get access and tours for constituents that travel to D.C. Also, the officials really do enjoy meeting with the people they represent. They don't get into that line of work unless they love pressing the flesh and meeting new people.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
If they have no resale value, they you could buy a used diamond very cheaply and get a jeweler to put it in a new setting for you, and that would kill the market for new diamonds. They don't wear out, of course. "Diamonds are forever" and all that.
The used diamond market isn't like the used car market, where the resale value drops as soon as you drive your shiny new Mustang off the lot. That is, it's not that market prices are low -- it's that there is no market. Because De Beers has created the impression that diamonds are priceless (if not in monetary value, then in sentimental value), almost no one sells their used diamonds. And because no one sells them, no one expects to buy them either. This has completely eliminated the secondary market for diamonds -- outside of shady outfits like pawn shops, which can hardly be considered bastions of "fair market value".
The total lack of liquidity in the used diamond market means that De Beers can continue to have complete control over prices. Why is stifling liquidity just as important as stifling competition? Look at what happened to hardware companies like Cisco when the Internet bubble burst. As if it weren't bad enough that Cisco lost customers, they found that prospective customers were buying cheap, lightly used hardware off the dot-bombs at fire sale prices instead of from Cisco. This is even more important for De Beers, since a diamond has a considerably longer usable life than a router. The moral of the story: if you want to sell your product to everyone at ridiculous prices, without screwing yourself in the future by saturating the market with resalable goods, then do exactly what De Beers has done.
Cheers,
IT
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
Hang around outside and see if you can find a cheap one with low miles on it.
There's nothing morally reprehensible about the Canadians, last time I checked. ... other than bludgeoning baby seals and over fishing everything and clearcutting vast areas of virgin forest. oh, and taking over Hollywood!
Actually I was told that most roses are imported from Colombia. But I suppose you could make a comment about roses funding the drug trade.
I beleve you mean C_8.
hehehe....
Code her a 20 minute long Marrige Demo (64K is the best of course), that proposes to her. Have wedding music (after a smooth rendition of your 'song') in the background, with awesome 3d graphics. Perhaps not all girls would appreciate that, but if you did it from scratch, then it would be a nice effort.
That being said, I don't know how my girlfriend would take that... probably ask if I got the lame idea from Taco or something...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
If the guy who submitted this story bothered to do some research before whining to /., he'd realise that Argyle Diamonds are also pretty clean when it comes to ethical issues. Although, this guy wants it cheap and clean so I don't think he's ever going to find a diamond that he'll "approve of".
I pity the poor girl with this idiot for a boyfriend. Although, I think she knows enough to know that if she questions his ideals, she'll be called a troll and the marriage will be off.
Who'd a thunk.... a non-geek story making the HOF on slashdot? Now that I look....few are geek stories.
Anyways.....hope this makes it...in less than 2 hours it's over halfway.
She may understand your arguements, but deep down she'll never forgive you for forcing her to explain to her friends why she doesn't have a diamond everytime she shows off her ring (and she will!).
:-)
Everything is subjective, and the only thing that *counts* is perception and expectation. And her expectation (probably since she was five) has always been that she'll get married and be able to flaunt a beautiful diamond ring on her finger. And if you think your marriage will survive a beginning that includes destroying the dream that has defined her life to this point you're sadly mistaken
As far as buying the ring is concerned, shop around for a good manufacturing jeweller. They typically do far better work than you'll get at a retailer, and at cheaper rates. You can even get a ring made to a design that she has chosen. (In the unlikely case that you live in New Zealand I can get a friend of mine - a genuine english master jeweler - to make it for you).
I can't comment on the resale value of diamonds, but there's no doubt about the resale value of *rings*. You'd sell the ring rather than the stones, although frankly why you'd be contemplating selling the ring or it's components at all is beyond me. My wifes engagement ring has gone up in value several times.
As far as the ethical side is concerned, if you scratch anything deep enough these days you'll find organised crime or commercial exploiters have some kind of finger in it. With diamonds there is (according to your figures) a 95% chance that yours will be from a nice happy mine with a great health plan. The shoes you're wearing are more likely to have been made by exploited labour. You can't go through life avoiding anything with ethical ambiguities in it because there are too many of them - you'd be dead in a month.
Don't bring ethics anywhere NEAR your wedding. They're hard enough to survive as it is (don't get me started).
If you don't love her enough to do this on a "benefit of the doubt" basis you shouldn't be getting married anyway.
Pick your battles, and know that this is one you can't win. Buy the diamond. Buy the biggest one you can afford. And give it to her *on your knees* in the most romantic place you can find (somewhere expensive). This is the one thing she will NEVER forget. Given time, she'll forget the details of the birth of your first child, she'll forget the first car you buy together, she'll forget your first apartment, but she'll NEVER forget how you proposed and what her wedding was like. And one day, when you're in deep do-do for some stupid mistake or comment you made, you'll be saying "Please honey - I'm sorry - forgive me" and she'll think back to her wedding and the guy she married THAT DAY and she'll look at her finger and make her decision. A diamond ring she's really proud of is the best investment you can make.
Have a great life.
Simon
simon.mahony at thorndancer.com
fuck'em and chuck'em
Why do all these diamond sites have flash movies instead of web pages? I need information, not cheap entertainment.
funny munging
Get her a man made diamond? They are perfect, less expensive, do not help support criminals, and have a cool geek factor because they are made in a lab!
Use monkeys instead! mmmmmmm... Mouth watering monkeys...
Simpsons Safari
Two friends of mine got married last year, and instead of diamonds, they both gave each other identical rings. The rings were moebius strips, fashioned in silver. Very cool. They love them. The symbolism involved is also very cool. Two sides of the ring actually are one side, representing their coming together as one. Diamonds are superficial. If you really want to make her happy, I'm sure that some symbolic like this would mean much more than a simple diamond.
Buy one in Jamaica, they are about 1/2 the price there.
Buy the diamond. Ethics shmethics...when your fiancee's friends see you didn't buy her a diamond you can be certain you won't be getting any for a very long time. Take my word for it. I am engaged and my fiancee told me she didn't want a big diamond...but I bought a big one anyway...and you know what? I've never heard her (or her friends) say anything negative about it.
And oh yes, I got some that night.
-ted
I just got married last month. That is something to get a whole lot of experience from... Engagement preceeded the fact though. :)
This has nothing to do with diamonds (SFOF), but still funny. It was a big surprise to me that "every woman knows" that the price of cost of the engagement ring should be 3 times groom's salary, but not even half of those "every woman" know on the finger of which hand (in terms of left and right) to wear the engagement ring. Although, they are pretty comfortable with less expensive ring and Internet research for the question at hand
Just my to 0.2 euros.
Leonid Mamtchenkov
Shit Shit shit...diamonds, bullshit. Go fuck your selves.
I have no doubt that within the next 30 years, you will be able to buy a flawless diamond the size of your head for about the same cost as a lump of coal. The techniques for synthesizing such diamonds would probably be there today if it weren't for the constant efforts of the DeBeers cartel to shut down all research on those fronts. But you can only slow down progress for so long, the state-of-the art is getting better (and cheaper) every day.
Don't believe it? It's happened before. Aluminum used to be a rare and exotic metal, until we discovered better extraction techniques. The top of the Washington Monument was supposed to be made out of aluminum, until it was stolen because the cost of aluminum was about equal to the price of silver! Of course now we throw alumnium cans away when we can't find a recycling bin.
The point is, of course, not that you shouldn't buy a diamond, it's just that you shouldn't expect its value (or rarity, or symbolism of your love, or "specialness", or whatever) to be lasting when we're probably going to be able to crank out diamonds for the same cost as class beads. Buy a small diamond for its (current but temporary) symbolic value, if anything.
We've got a lovely brass sign up on our home saying "DeBeers - Tradesman's entrace". One of my relatives left out grog for the guards one night when he lived in South Africa. A few hours afer their shift had started, he quietly unscrewed the sign and swiped it :)
I gave my then-fiance a top-of-the-line promise ring. It ran me $350CDN, has 3 nice little diamond "chips", a nice setting, and is subtle but very nice. When I told her it was a promise ring, she said she didn't want anything bigger, and refused to accept a large engagement ring. Lucky me. :) Maybe your girl will think likewise - I don't know that I'd want a big hunk of carbon catching on my purse/pants/jacket for the rest of my life.
I can't believe so many people are telling you to ignore your own conscience. Ethics matter more than pretty rings. Love matters more than baubles and gems. If she loves you, it should be enough that you let her know you love her. It's still nice to get a gift - something romantic, perhaps even a ring - but I'd have no respect for a fiance who claimed to care about these issues and then went and bought a diamond anyway.
You'd talk to more women! :)
Best goddamn midget porn in town! [fuckporn.net]
The PBS program, "Frontline," devoted an episode some years back on the diamond business and the DeBeers Company particularly. It was available on VHS, and it's worth every penny. Child labor, apartheid, blackmail, extortion, collusion and plain old-fashioned intimidation. And a killer marketing scam. You gotta make the call. My call is a gal who "gets it" and wants no party to those crooks. Good thing I'm posting anonymously...
But don't sacrifice meaning of the engagement ring in the process. Make sure that that makes it even more special.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
You better get her the ring that she wants and keep your diamond market ethics & opinions out of it. Just opening your mouth erodes the the beauty a diamond would probably bring her. I completely agree with you 100%, but I have never told my wife. Israel & South Africa own the diamond industry.
All women want to know that their man will go to great lengths for them. Since fire-breathing dragons are on the endangered species list, and most of us want to keep our ears attached to our heads, too many of women are convinced that we can only do this by forking over ungodly sums for rings that look like everyone elses.
... white gold with stars on one side and sort of a turbulent void theme on the other). Total cost: $450 nine years ago.
Do what I did. Tell her you'll happily buy her whatever stone she wants, but that you think it would be cool to design your own rings. Sit down together, sketch out some ideas, take them to a local custom jewelry maker (your burg has at least a couple). Get his opinions on metal and stones, pay him to make a few sketches. Don't do this to be cheap; do this to create something unique you'll both like.
In our case, we ended up making three rings that stood on their own but fit together conceptually; earth (her wedding), sky (her engangement, with an amethyst for the sun), space (my wedding
My wife has never had anyone comment on her lack of diamond; they are usually too taken with the distinctiveness of the rings and the story of their creation.
Two final words of advice:
First, don't have your ring sized in the hot, sweaty days of August. Mine was so hard getting off, I asked the jeweler to enlarge it slightly. By the time December rolled around, the thing was flying off my hand ever time I turned around.
Second, think twice about the ceremony if your wife wants an inscription that starts "One ring to rule him..."
Gee... heaven forbid you drop a few k on the woman you love for no other reason than it will make her happy. Hopefully for many years it will be something that brings fond thoughts to the surface when she looks at it. Perhaps long after you've joind the underground brigade in the cemetary.
"But look at the ethical and financial aspects of the issue" you say.
Yet many of you would think nothing of droping a few k on the latest and greatest gee whiz piece of electronics. Which may make you happy for a few months and then be worthless after a year or so if you are lucky and which will undoubtably end up in a landfill somewhere or littering the ground and poisoning the soil of some poor asian country for years and years.
Just because you don't get it doesn't mean its not meaningful to someone else.
There's nothing wrong with a little tradition now and then.
Ok, this may sound a bit odd (some would say queer, but...) I think a Marrige Quilt would be a great idea, if you know which end of a needle is the business end...
./ so basically you are giving her your time ./ing).
It would take alot of time, and thinking, and wouldn't be a 'money' thing, and it's something she can give her daughter some day.
Just make a quilt that has scenes that you needlepointed onto some of the squares about the years (hopefully years...) that you have spent together, leaving some blank, and one that's already titled "wedding".
It wouldn't be a terrible idea to get a small ring (I would just go with a Platitum one with a CZ or Saphire, but that's just me) and put in a small pocket for her to find, because her girlfriends will hate you if you don't get a ring at all (plus on the right finger it fends off other guys).
If you did the whole thing in secret (perhaps getting her mother or grandmother to help you; she would think it's sweet esp if it was her grandmother). You could even depicte it as a tree, with each of you as the root separate (with scenes of each of your earlier lives), and then together for a tree, and your relationship spreading out together...
Best of all, if you left the back side of it usable, then you could start a family tree (if you are going to have kids), that has her parents (she will love that), and you two at the bottom, and starts spreading out in squares with room for names, and other needle points.
Now this being said, I think that you would have to really learn a few things to do this, however- her, her mother, her aunts, and grandmothers would love you for this. And she would really like it that you learned something for her, instead of just plunking down 2 months pay (which to get you act like you work all day, when really reading
Good luck (I might try this one my girlfriend in some way, better start now... ) But really, if you are serious, this also gives you time to think over it, to make sure that you want it to be her, you can charge a Diamond in a minute at the store, but you can't make this instant.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Just be happy that you are human and can spend money on something that's disposable and generally not harmful to your health. Other animals have to carry around their showy but wasteful investments--you might have to run around with antlers or other useless appendages. Yet others need to engage in dangerous combats (still popular with some backwards humans) in order to win the favors of a female.
guess what, people? I know this may sound kind of
strange to a bunch of toy-addicted, overpaid and traditional folks -- but love is *NOT* something you charge on your line of credit.
this whole article is a fucking troll. i rue the day i started reading this website on a nearly regular basis.
OK, this will probably get either moderated as flamebait or a troll, but Jesus H. Christ on a crutch already. "You're financing TERRORISM!" has already gotten to be the most overused phrase by our lovely Dictator^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HGovernment since 11 September 2001. Please. Diamonds are a form of currency that cannot be tracked and controlled (as easily (at the moment)) by the Government and other powers that be. Next they'll eliminate cash, because "Unregistered Dollars can Fund Terrorism" and MUST BE STOPPED at all costs. *Sigh*
_Every_ item of value in the market has some pain or exploitation associated with it. I imagine the lovely monitor you're reading this on was probably built by someone in a 3rd world country who makes less in a year than you do in a day. Better give that up, sparky. Many, many items are made with extortion, force, or other "unsavory" methods. If they weren't, the prices of goods and services would rise dramatically - and then you'd cry about how much things cost, and how everyone should band together to topple the corporate cartels that impose such draconian methods as capitalism and free markets.
Wake up, people. Your ethics are only good when they fit your current needs and viewpoints.
/em end rant.
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
How about politically correct revision, which is flourishing nowadays?
You seem to ignore where black slaves used in the Southern US states came from. Africa. Not the coast of Africa, where it would be easy for white crews to catch them. They came from all across Africa, where white men dared not go. The Africans who were sold as slaves in the ports of Africa were usually prisoners of other Africans. When two tribes warred, the winners took the losers as slaves. When Europeans started showing up with gold, iron, cattle, glass, etc. to trade for the slaves of Africans, the slaves were sold to them for transport to America. Not the US, as it started long before the United States became a nation.
So, if you want to draw attention to the real cause of slavery in the US, look at the Africans who started the whole deal.
Look at it this way: If you really want to be married to this woman, you value marrying her, and ought in principle to be willing to pay for the privilege. But, you want her to be committed to and value the relationship also, and if you pay her to get engaged or to marry you, you have no way of knowing she didn't just get engaged so she could "take the money and run."
So what do you do? You buy something really expensive that has no utility or intrinsic value, you give it to her (to prove you aren't going to resell it), and she can't "take the money and run" since diamonds are hard to resell and there is social pressure against reselling them anyway.
Basically, you are "burning money" to prove you value the marriage you are about to enter into. You do this to convince her you are serious, she needs to know you are serious since marrying someone who isn't serious is potentially costly in all sort of ways (emotionally, financially, time-wise, etc.).
True, there are only a few countries in which diamonds are used for engagements, but I bet most of the other societies have similar committment devices that also amount to "money-burning."
For more on this, see the book, Hidden Order: The Economics of Everyday Life by David D. Friedman (yes, son of the famous economist Milton Friedman). The book is available here and here with a table of contents, etc., here.
Since today a girl's viginity is just about worthless (in terms of dollars) and it's nowhere near as difficult to get married as a non-virgin. Just a thought.
If you think they have no resell buy a used one and put it into a new setting. They say diamonds are forever but what is really forever is a womens MEMORY, especially when she's looking at some crappy rhinestone that her cheap husband bought. Every time you want to buy something nice, like a new computer, she will remember. Just bite the bullet dude, get it, your life will be much easier that way
if it is true. Sounds more like the stuff of urban legend to me. Not to mention a way for "cheapskates" to justify not spending two months salary buying a diamond engagement ring.
They are not only fragile, but over time they absorb moisture from the air/surroundings and lose their sparkle. And as you said, they are prone to breakage because they are very soft. Any gemstone would be a better choice than an opal.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
You are right-- it is the wrong question, but I don't think you are asking the right one either.
My advice-- don't focus on what you don't want to do. Let it rest for a while and stop worrying. Then focus on what you will do. Make sure that whatever the ring you give her is, that is is a worthy monument to your love.
In my mind the real question is-- how to immortalize your that moment. Forget all this "Buy a diamond" or "How could you buy a diamond" stuff and focus on what really matters. If after consideration you realize that it won't be the same without a diamond, then decide if it is worth buying a diamond. Otherwise use something else but make it special.
BTW, about this "it's what people expect" argument, don't buy that one either. People are not so disappointed with the unusual, just make sure it is magnificent. If you break people's expectations but get around the "that's a cop-out" arguments, then you will probably *impress* rather than disappoint.
But if you are that worried, you might want to get a diamond. But it is your life, your love, and your concience. And it is up to you to make that choice.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
My wife actually doesn't like Diamonds, or Gold, or white gold or platinum. I know guys, I lucked out $wise. We finally settled on Titanium. It's really coming in to fasion these days and the lifetime durability question is gone. We got ours at (go figure) www.titaniumweddingrings.com Hers is mainly a ruby suspended in a tension setting flanked by 2 small diamonds. The band is small and simple and is just inlaid with a small gold band. I however like gold and diamonds(why she caved to match my taste). Check out the constellation one. Mine is diamond and ruby alternating. It's incredibly cool and the prices are great. I did NOT make the mistake of going and buying some ring that she wasn't going to like. I let her figure out what we both wanted to do and made compromises on both. I mean, marriage is after all a collection of lifetime compromises. It's hard to give advice on something that's so personally chosen. Myself, I'd never gone for any girl that made a thing about showing it off. The rings are symbols of love for each other and how it makes both of you feel is all that matters. Who cares what other people think of them.
Hrmmm, I presume you haven't read Alton Brown's new book and contributed a question, as if you had you'd clearly know that Kingsford charcoal is made out of wood.
IF she is willing, why not try something like this or this but in a women's style and size of course. Titanium seems fitting to me because it is so strong and tarnish/corrosion resistant, as one wants their love to be.
I have not purchased anything from these vendors, so I can't endorse them specifically. We were pretty "traditional" when we got married, in that I spent an irrational amount of money and bought her one big ring with a large center diamond and several smaller ones that served as both her wedding and engagement ring. To date, other than the house which the bank owns anyways, her ring is the most valuable thing that we own, at least in replacement cost. For an anniversarry present though, I think I will get us matching titanium rings.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
bah, i think it's quite clear that the drug trade can support itself!
Find a silversmith in your town. Tell him you want to design a unique engagement ring for your GF. Help pick the stones, metal, how you want it to look, etc. Doesn't even have to be diamonds. Most silversmiths will jump at the chance to do something original.
When my wife and I were engaged I designed a ring for her. Our engagement ring does not have diamonds, but when our son was born I had a diamond ring designed by the same silversmith. Not a ring with a big honking rock, but small and subtle. Depends on your style. Our engagement ring is beautiful, an organic design with garnets and sugelite in gold. I'm no Picasso, but the ring is very original, and her friends are always impressed when she mentions that I had the ring designed for her.
The cost of having your own ring made varies, but will be less than buying a Diamond Ring(tm) from the diamond mafia. No "three months' salary" or any of that bullshit. A good silversmith should be able to give you the straight dope about diamonds, and not mark them up exorbitantly, since he's making money on the labor.
For reasons unknown Slashdot is filtering underscores out of links, however that should be http://amazing_facts.tripod.com/kingsford.html
A friend of ours went to buy his girlfriend an engagement ring, but she did not want a diamond. She wanted an emerald. One it is cheaper, and two she just liked them better.
Well anyway they went to a jewler and the saleslady practically shoved diamonds down their throats, even after telling her they did not want a diamond. She was like you can not get married without a diamond. Thankfully they went to a different jewler.
Mid-Eastern Pennsylvania Gaming Convention
Assuming you have already talked to her and explained to her how you feel and why and she understands then I would take her out and show her some nice Saphire rings, they were the traditional engagement ring until DeBeers got into the picture. And You can get a nice sized Saphire for the cost of a medium sized Diamond. And everyone will notice, cause she will have a good sized blue rock on her hand. If she isn't cool with it for the reasons you described dump her cause she is unreasonable.
My wife actually isn't a big diamon fan (for the social political reasons and the fact that colorless stones are kinda boring), she acutally hinted that she would prefer something other then a diamond, so I got her a nice saphire/platinium/with a couple small diamond bagettes on the side. Probaby the same cost as a single stone gold/diamond combo but I think it is money better spent and my wife loved it.
stretch marks from pregnancy - now THAT lasts forever! :)
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
i'm happy to report that my wife and i bought our wedding rings (no distinct "engagement rings") for about $100 each a few weeks before we got married at the county building. i feel blessed that she isn't trapped by this peer pressure you all are talking about. i'm saddened for those of you who are trapped by this pointless tradition.
quote:
"De Beers may be single-handedly responsible for promoting, in less than a century, Amercian, European, Japanese, and, increasingly, Chinese women to expect the "traditional" gift of a diamond engagment ring as a matter of right. "
Would you pay to seed the neighbor's lawn?
Sapphire on platinum looks fantastic. My wife loves it, and clearly, she said "yes".
Can't Buy Me Love is a Paul.
Whats a girlfriend?
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
You're paying for sex!!!
If its not too difficult, you might want a certain 3000 year old gold ring that once belonged to a guy who likes to eat fish. It's simple gift that will show your effort and determination to get this to her. Furthermore, it would keep her eternally youthful, meaning MUCH more fun when you reach 150 ;-)
I found myself in the same predicament a few years ago before I got married. My solution... I bought her a cubic zirconia and never told her. They are just as pretty and sparkley, you get the same ohhs and ahhs. Only a jewler can really tell the difference and I got a nice 1.5 carat solitare for about 200 bucks. In my opinion it's the only way to go
Explane that marrage is no more than legalised prostution, and that your'll have no part in it, as you love her too much to see her abused like that.
Then buy a TiBook.
Unless, of course, she really, really wants an opal -- like my wife did.
Much cheaper than diamonds, too. Untill I was fool enough to educater her about Black Opal. God, that shit is expensive!
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Geeks are more interested in talking about $C_{12}$ after all.
The traditional engagement ring used the birthstone of the woman. The celtic engagement ring was called the " Clatter ring" (said as one word, and damned difficult to spell.) Worn one way, it indicated you were betrothed. Worn another way, it indicated you were married.
You're looking at an opal doublet, which is a piece of piece glued to some black rock. The glue softens and the stone gets clouded. Solid opals don't have this problem.
You're totally right to be reluctant to get screwed by the diamond industry...but the girl needs her diamond. Trust me on this. She may say she's cool without it, but don't believe. Get the diamond. The cash you spend will be compensated by the lady.
You might try corundum (sapphire). They come in all sorts of neat colors (red=ruby, blue=sapphire). Bright green, yellow, hot pink, etc.
Diamond engagement rings are a recent (50 years or so) thing. Prior to that, garnets, rubys, and other stones were perfectly acceptable. You can buy a giant, beautiful corundum (though not ruby) for the price of a rather sad-looking diamond.
The other advantage of sapphire is that it's the second hardest gemstone (right behind diamonds). So it'll last her lifetime. Opals and emeralds are shitty stones to wear every day in a ring because they're soft and will disintegrate if whacked about too much.
Keep in mind you have to buy a larger carat size of sapphire than diamond because diamonds have a higher index of refraction so they can be cut thinner and show the same depth and sparkle.
My wife has had a nice yellow sapphire for a while since 6 months salary at the time would have been a wee chip of a diamond. People ask what it is and think it's great. It sparkles (though not as much as an expensive diamond) and is very unique.
Try poking around here; I haven't actually bought from them but they have nice gems and are highly rated as an Ebay seller. Most reputable places will let you order a bunch of stones and return the ones you didn't like.
Seriously, if you get your wife-to-be any kind of ring and she is disappointed, is she really the kind of woman you want to marry?
the only reason that they cost so much to buy is because the companies who produce them restrict the supply. there are hundreds of thousands of surplus diamonds sitting in some warehouse right now.
"Truth suffers from too much analysis." Frank Herbert, Dune Messiah
Take it from someone who has learned this the hard way: you have to be able to talk to each other about everything. If you cannot, you are bound to do things that she doesn't like and don't do things that she likes. You will also do potentially the right thing but at the wrong time.
Many women, my soon to be ex-wife included, thinks that if you do things because they (the woman) has asked for it, you don't mean it. That is of course bull but that's what they think. Its probably a remnant from childhood when Mom really did know what you wanted without you having to tell her and if she didn't, you soon liked what she did do for you, because it was her doing it.
Its part of growing up to be able to say what you want and recieve it without resentment. Some women, and I guess some men as well, never reaches that maturity or reaches it too late for their first love to enjoy it.
Free advice from
The good old doctor.
My wife wasn't mindfucked by the DeBeers commercials (partly cause her mom worked in a jewelry store). Her ring came out to $400 CDN. She figured rather than blow all the money on an expensive ring put it towards the wedding and honeymoon.
It's your future ex-wife, statisically speaking.
Remember, Robbie can make diamonds, emeralds and with some difficulty, Star Sapphires.
Now, just find Robbie and you will get: a mover, a bodyguard, a cook, a stil, a gem maker, astrogator etc.
Hedley
My class ring is black onxy, if your a slashdot'er this stone should fit into your culture a little better than a dimond. :)
(troll?!)
RID
When that marriage finished, and life went on just for her to meet someone new and decide to do it all again, however she's done tradition, and she's certain that the relatives don't want to be bothered out every time someone decides to get a divorce and married again.
Her ring was a beautiful dark ruby, in white gold. Looking more like something you'd see in the lord of the rings.
After you forfill the tradition, you might as well go out and do everything your way, a ring you like (and doesn't look like your first) with the stone you really want on your finger, and not one that you chose because everyone else has been doing it for years and you may-look not so loved without a diamond.
The point being, she had a ring she enjoys, looks good, and by god it cost far more than her first [ring of diamond].
Because she'll never know the difference
Hmmm, there are already over 500 comments, so I might not getting many eyeballs... but here goes anyway.
First of all, you've all heard how much you're supposed to spend on a ring. Well, guess what? That's just a figment of De Beers marketing that's some how become completely ingrained in society as the way it should. Very clever of them, eh? In the UK, it's one months salary, in N. America, two months, and in Japan 3 months (if I remember The Economist article from a few years ago correctly.)
My wife didn't actually like the idea of having two months worth of my salary on her finger... she was most comfortable with less than one month's (after taxes). Lucky me. Her ring is lovely to behold, yet it isn't impractically large, nor does it make her feel like she's going to be mugged everytime she goes anywhere.
I seriously looked around when I was buying. I even considered buying some from the Canadian shield area, mined by independent Canadian companies. They even had Polar Bears engraved on the "edge" of the diamond! These would have cost a couple of thousand more, but I would have felt a lot more ethical about it.
In the end, I went to a small independent goldsmith called John Brennan in Stratford Ontario. He was great! He made the ring to our design, and trotted back and forth to Toronto to get diamonds for use to choose from, and final appraisal, etc. I feel good that I supported the small local guy, and have some good memories to boot.
Another option that I considered, was going to a wholesaler of diamonds. This is much cheaper, but you really have to know what you're doing. I didn't feel that I could estimate the price of diamonds well enough to do this.
At the end of the day, there aren't many women who will be happy with something other than a diamond ring. Make sure you know how she feels, and *talk* to her about it. Don't try to convince her that your way is better, as it could come back to bite you later on. This is an exciting time for her (and you I hope), so don't piss on her parade too much. I know, it's a sad situation full of social pressures. You have to do your own thing, and what makes you both happy.
why don't you just admit you're cheap? you're buying it for her not for you. so even if you buy a small one she would appreciate it the most. unless you're really that cheap that you rather spend it buying linux books, then boo ya!
I think you have answered your own question. You are buying this gift for her to express your love. What matters is what she wants--your political sensitivities be damned.
Is the need for diamonds a manufactured demand? Yes. A few years ago, less than 5% of Japanese engagements involved rings. Today, after a concerted marketing effort by diamond companies, diamond rings are part of most engagements.
Manufactured desire or not, however, a diamond is what your girlfriend desires. Therefore a diamond is what you should buy her.
Actually, this is not true. First, diamonds do have resale value. More important, however, you can find jewelers who will take back the diamonds. I got the ring for my wife from such a jeweler.
What does? It's funny, but nobody's willing to pay me full price for my used cars. Or my old PC, etc ...
Engagement rings shouldn't be resold if all goes well ... and if it doesn't ... well, then you got screwed by more than just the De Beers.
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
Fortunately for me, my wife doesn't care for diamonds. She does, however, absolutely adore pearls. Cheaper too!!
This is OLD news. There is a NOVA special on the DeBeers cartel, and many others. Prior to the 1950's and Marilyn Monroe singing "Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend," pearls were the customary engagement gift. Ask your grandparents. I know that my girlfriend, deep down, wantde a big rock, regarless of how they're made. And I think it's the marketing that causes this, so that our girlfriends can sit around and compare their diamonds and indirectly, their fiance's wealth and success. But it's to show off - conspicuous consumption.
Lemme just say that when the relationship gets to the engagement / marrying stage, your actual "feelings" for your partner start to matter less relative to your future in-laws PERCEPTIONS of your feelings. Buying a diamond is not really just for you or your betrothed, its more a signal to in-laws-to-be that you are really serious.
..
In my own particular case, I don't think my in-laws believed I was in for the long-haul until that glittering rock was firmly ensconsed on hand. Sad, but true. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Anywho, in most cases your expenditure on the ring will pale in comparison to total expenditures on the wedding. The diamond tradition also has a bit of the quid-pro-quo aspect to it.
Finally, in all likelyhood the gobs of money spent on the wedding itself also funds some fairly unsavory activities, ultimately. Your money go to the Church? Well, maybe Cardinal X used it to cover up the indiscretions of Father Y. How about the caterer? Maybe he used your money to help fund the campaign of a politician you find dreadfully obnoxious.
The diamond is in no way unique. Hey, do you know that a large fraction of your own income directly funds nuclear weapons? Maybe you should go without income
Just a thought.
When I got engaged, I gave my wife-to-be a silver Hopi story ring that I had picked up in Cody, Wyoming. Later on, my mother mailed to me the enagement ring that my late father had given to her; and that his father had given to his mother; and the diamond in it had been my father's father's father's tie tack.
The best thing, in my opinion, is something of personal value instead of monetary value. My wife now tells me that she feels very connected to my family because of the heirloom diamond I gave her.
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
To echo some of the comments made here, buy used! You should have a REPUTABLE (and I do mean reputable) pawn shop in your area that sells diamonds and settings second hand. I purchased a beautiful 3 diamond ring in 18K white gold for my fiance for about $2500. It's value? About $4500. Also, this pawn shop guarantees an added 10% additional value per year if she ever wants to trade up (why would she? ;). I didn't put any additional drain on the "new" diamon market, helped out the local economy and... here's the kicker (I hope), HOPEFULLY I helped out in some roundabout way some geek who maybe got dumped by his wife-to-be. ;)
;)
Hey, who knows the history. I don't care. I bought my woman something that's pretty, not too extravagent and used. If your woman requires that her diamond be "new", remind her that they've been in the ground for who knows how many years already. Perhaps give her some printouts explaining how purchasing new diamonds is offensive to you for social and moral reasons.
Another final idea that's been posted here... ask a relative. Yeah, it's gauche, but tactfully talking to relatives might prove very beneficial. It might save YOU money while keeping an heirloom in the family. Needless to say, try to pick a good bride-to-be first so that the sentimental treasure isn't sullied by things like divorces.
you want to give your girl a diamond for that exact reason.
they are so valuable because of all the people that get hurt or killed just to get them to you. it is an extreme honor for her to walk around with a symbol that showed that you were willing to go to great lengths and monetary devotion to ensure that people would be hurt and maimed for years all for her.
she is so worth it.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
Now the slashdot editors know what really ups the old hit counter.
From now on when things get slow we can expect articles such as:
1. What to do when she finds out it is zirconium.
2. O.K. I forgot her birthday what do I do now?
3. Ideas on how to say you love her for 20 bucks or less.
thanks to some kind donations, we were able to convert my grandmother's large diamond ring and my mother-in-law's ring with six small diamonds, into one mega-diamond-extravaganza engagement ring. my husband designed it himself, and got a jeweller to put it together. it was a very reasonably priced way to get some chunky ice on my finger, and all the relatives thought it was a lovely metaphor for the joining of two families.
Give it up. Get the diamond, go buy yourself a new TV or something.
Actually, if you dont get the diamond, you might as well get yourself a RealDoll to go along with the big TV..you'll need it.
I would suggest looking into a Canadian diamond. They're more strict about labor and environmental laws up there and have less of that terrorist/military strife stuff going on. Also, you can avoid the DeBeers monopoly with some of the unique brands:
Ekati http://ekati.ca
EightStar http://www.eightstar.com
These two Canadian brands come at a premium though. There are others that are more modest.
One good place that diamond geeks talk a lot is http://diamondtalk.com.
I had some of the same issues, a product whose value is almost totally linked to exploited people, whether the cultural indoctrination which attempts to tell her she HAS to have one or to tell you that you're REQUIRED to demonstrate your love for her and your commitment to your relationship together by sacrificing 2 months wages for it, or for the revenues from US diamond sales which fund warlords and lords of capitalism who enslave entire nations of native peoples...
I shared my values and issues with my beloved,explained how I felt on the issue and asked her if she could cherish anything else as much or more. We settled upon something we both enjoyed doing and could deal with. We recycled some older smaller 5 pt. and 10 pt. diamonds from family discards and supplemented them with a central grouping of her favorite colored gemstone in a custom gold mounting and ring guard made just for her. It's beautiful, but didn't cost half what a retail piece would. We then spent the rest of the savings on a trip together. That was in 1984 and we're still committed to our values, our relationship together, and to working through issues we feel strongly about together.
TALK to your lover. Share honestly and completely about your feelings with her. Listen to her and learn from her what she feels and needs, then do what you both need to nurture one another, and make your first steps together attempt to set a pattern which can sustain you both past the difficulties of your differences and into a wonderful exploration of them together.
Let the gift, whatever you choose together, become the enduring symbol of your commitment to one another, and you can't go wrong.
At least, that's one romantic old opinionated fogey's thoughts, worth precisely what you've paid for them.
What you need to understand is that the reason for buying a diamond ring has NOTHING to do with the actual ring.
It has 100% to do with society. and in this society when a girl is engaged all her friends will be asking to see her hand. The bigger/better the rock the more status it represents.
The idea of 3 months salary is to proove that a man is financially secure and can provide for his family (read potential wife). If he has enough forethought and money to be able to save 3 paychecks in a row and not spend them at all shows the ability to manage money and provide. Some men get around this by saving up a huge amount of money just-in-case and putting it in the bank. This defeats the purpose. The idea is to proove the worst-case-scenario that you can provide.
Diamonds may come from war-torn and screwed up countries that have really screwy labour laws. But i mean dont think the corporate practices in america are so much better. Sure sue 12 yr old makes 5 cents/hr for carrying illegal diamonds across a checkpoint.. 5 cents buys her a freakin cow and feeds her family for a month.
You cannot look at the value without the cost of living around it. All countries do not operate the way the us does and thus in some cases children have to work. Its not an ideal situation but its reality. Not supporting child labour wont make it go away. On the contrary it will make it worse.
How? well if enough pressure is put on de-beers etc they'll stop buying stolen diamonds and child labour ones... what does that mean. Well it means that community doesnt have that 5 cents it means that country remains really poor. Child labour INCREASES to work fields etc and the standard of living is lowered.
Not supporting evil practices wont make them go away. It only makes them worse.
"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
So. Go buy her the biggest fattest diamond you can. if you want to crusade against the illegal practices in diamond trafficing buy a canadian diamond from bc or the yukon. BUT for gods sake send 20 of relief money to a starving child at the same time. That is if you care about the _REAL_ ethics behind it.
Personally i just bought my girlfriend a very rare canadian diamond (1.2 carats (thank you dotcoms)) with the "Canadiana" cut. Which has the shape of a maple leaf in the facets.
Very expensive but her dad and her girlfriends were just that much more accepting of me after that. Call it crappy old tradition if you will but there are good reasons for it. And because of it her dad (as in tradition) paid for the entire wedding (which was worth a lot more then the diamond) in response.
If you're the type of people that say i dont care what anyone else thinks and what her parents think doesnt matter then fine get her a trip to hawaii. But a diamond lasts forever.
On the issue of depreciation and having no resale value thats just totally false. A well cut rare diamond with proper certificates will usually appreciate in value, assuming you actually do some research and dont get hosed by a lame in-mall jewler.
I know the ring i paid 12,000 cdn for 2 years ago is now worth 15,000 but thats purely because the cut is extremely hard to find and was done special.
So go forth buy a diamond and multiply...
Hey, if she's sold on the marketing, you better do what a good man has to do. Just hope that you can convince her that you're fueling child labor and wars in Africa and save the $10K (and buy a new 47" flat plasma that you can say you found on eBay for $200).
By the way, if the new Diamonique and Zirconias (sp?) are so hard to differentiate from the real thing, what are you waiting for? Save a child, stop a war, and be the envy of all geeks with your new monitor.
The whole process is expensive. Receptions are blown out of proportion. Rings are just part of the deal - and a big part.
Who cares if there is a resale market - you aren't likely to sell it anyway...
You will have to live with this decision for a long time. You sure you aren't just being a bit cheap?
Unless you mean "is having a sparkly stone worth that money?". Don't ask silly questions.
Still, that said I bought my wife's ring through a brother of a friend who travels around the world collecting gems and who could negotiate directly with a wholesaler for me. It was like getting a $10 bill for $5.
-- SIGFPE
I bought my wife a diamond. She was a fiend, what could I do? Then 6 months later when I bough my computer I tried to hide the fact that it cost more than the diamond...
;)
Didn't want to fuel that whole "more time with the computer" thing you know
We got our rings at an estate jeweler, basically meaning they are all at least second hand. Not only were they super cheap, but being second hand don't have the full guilt of a new diamond.
-no broken link
Interestingly, the vast majority of gem grade diamonds never make it to market. They're warehoused to keep the cost of diamonds high. Otherwise, diamonds would be significantly cheaper than they are. This doesn't even include the tons of industrial grade diamonds that are stored in the former Soviet Union.
So, to answer your question. Are they worth (the price)? No. Does your girlfriend expect one? Probably, due to the massive marketing campaigns that you mentioned.
For more bang for the buck, look into colored gem stones. They are generally priced closer to what they are actually worth and, frankly, look nicer. Of course, the same ethical quandaries may apply.
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
My friend received a GORGEOUS sapphire engagement ring. It was a beautiful shade of blue and was a lot more bang for their buck!!! Not only was it bigger than any diamond of comparable price, but it also added a distinctive characteristic to the traditional "token of love" for this special couple. I think that your soon-to-be fiance should respect your views on this issue. One possible compromise is to have very small diamonds on both sides of an alternative center stone.
...a 1:322 chance this post will be moderated. Let the dice roll.
"The lesson to be learned is not to take the comments on slashdot too literally." --Vinnie Falco, BearShare
oh, and taking over Hollywood
No, that's a Good Thing(tm).
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
Quit complaining and buy the diamond.
You're just buying yourself trouble if your future wife finds out that you are complaining about this issue.
Take it from someone who has 28 years experience.
sls
Lucy in the sky with diamonds? :)
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
If we really want to change the culture and get rid of the diamond craze, we're going to have to do something about it. Not buying diamonds is a start, but we can do better. Why not start issuing anti-diamond propaganda? Make posters/webpages/etc associating DeBeers with the terrorist and other inhuman groups they support. Start negative terms for diamonds and culture around them. Start advocating diamond alternatives, showing them in a good light. Start showing other people anti-diamond websites, pictures, articles, etc. and let them know the reality of the diamond trade. Make people feel guilty about supporting DeBeers.
My point is that society is heavily influenced by language. If you don't believe me, take a look at advertising. To affect others, we need to use this to our advantage. This is what companies spend billions of dollars a year doing. That might seem like a lot to compete against, but it really isn't if enough people believe differently. The trick is to get people who believe in what you're trying to accomplish to help you advocate it.
Obviously, this grass roots approach is useful in other fights. Linux advocacy can really be influenced in this manner. The problem with Linux is that this advocacy is mostly kept inside the tech community. For example, many people outside of the tech industry see nothing wrong with running Outlook. If we start showing Outlook in a very negative light, less people would use it. The tricky part is not coming on too strongly or doing other things to make what you're fighting for look bad.
Why yes, those mean old African positively forced slaves on the good ol' boys of the South. They wanted to stop, see, they never even wanted to start, but just like our fat friend suing the fast food industry, they were helpless!
here
The fact that it went on in Africa (and South America, and pretty much everywhere that colonial Empires reached) does not excuse the fact that we in America were one of the last countries to abolish the practice, because the cash-crop economy of the South relied on forced labor too much to ever accept the fact that it was an evil practice.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I agree that buying a diamond would ultimately support some buisnesses that I would rather not support (De Beers), so when the time came for me to pledge loyalty to the world diamond cartel I called my Mom and explained my feelings to her and asked if I could give her diamond to my girl. After she called me the "cheepest son of a bitch ever" (her words, not mine), she admitted that she thought it would be a wonderful idea...
The only moral justification I've ever found for jewelry was that if ever there was some really dire emergency, perhaps having some bit of precious metal or diamond on your person could help in terms of being able to use it for a bribe or some other need.
Perhaps Schindler's List went to my head...
"I thought they were the dominant species..."
My wife and I got married in the back yard of a justice of the peace with two plain silver wedding rings. The most expensive part of the wedding was taking everyone out to the 99 resteraunt after the ceremony. But despite these humble beginnings, our marriage has lasted longer than many I know of that cost hundreds or thousands of times as much. In fact, I find that it is often the most spectacular weddings that end in the most spectacular failures.
If your woman won't marry you without a big shiny rock to entice her, is she marrying you, or the diamond?
She was just fine with that.
--john
Slashdot: you'll not find a more wretched collection of villainy and disreputable types...
My alternative will be stated in a moment, but first I want to give you a few things to think about.
1- Tradition is strongly rooted and if you search back far enough you will find 'True' time honored traditions of the heart.
2- Women love to feel unique. Currently most women accomplish this by getting the bigger diamond. Though there are other ways to separate them into a truely unique field of their own. Separating them entirely from everyone they know. And at an EXTREMELY low cost.
3- What is a time and time again statement from married women whose husbands go away with the boys. Or leave on business trips??? Will they take off their ring? What if you could absolutely prove to her you wouldn't?
4- Couple with #3, what if it was your true love that showed her you were true to her and would never stray?
Answer: A puzzle ring.
These rings consist of many bands, ranging from 4 bands, to as many as 8 (I've seen as many as 12, but they are rare.)
These bands come in gold, silver and many different designs. The makers of these rings can usually customize them and possible add diamond chips (for appeal) if you wish. The are inexpensive, in the area of $100 to $250 each for gold, and even cheaper if you choose silver. I'm sure they come in white gold also.
These rings have quite a history dating back (from what I found) to midevil times. The ring consisting of bands that interlock to form the ring. But remove the ring and the ring falls apart. The come with no instruction and are very difficult to reassemble. The more bands that you have, the more complicated it becomes.
When I suggested these to my girlfriend (prior proposal) she was overwhelmingly pleased that I would even suggest such a thing. That I would willingly want to put somethign on my hand that I couldn't take off in the heat of the moment or at a glance of a pretty woman coming my way., Though I reassure you, that I wouldn't anyway, I truely love her, but the extra notion of dedication was purifying to the occasion.
And as I said, ALL of her friend and co-workers are jealous, more over that their husbands wouldn't dare where that type of ring.
Wrong or right.. I made the correct choice.
Here is an example of the rings.. I simply seached E-bay, but I am sure there are other avenues to follow in order to purchase such rings. The sellers on e-bay often advertise that they custom make these ring.. and size and many styles.
Happy shopping and good luck with a life time of happiness to both of you!
Example at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item =949361336
Never try to beat a professional at his own game!
When two tribes warred, the winners took the losers as slaves ... if you want to draw attention to the real cause of slavery in the US, look at the Africans who started the whole deal.
There's a simple cognitive mistake behind all bigotry and all apologies for bigotry. I think I can clear this up with an equally simple argument:
No matter where a slave came from an "African" who was sent over on a slave ship is not the same "African" who enslaved him.
The slaver who captured him committed a crime against humanity doing so. The person who was captured was a victim, whether that person was an innocent or guilty of committing crimes in his own life.
As, for the culpability of the Americans involved in the slave trade, anyone involved was obviously fully culpable. How can it make any moral difference whether you caught a free human being a made him or her a slave or if you paid someone else who did it for you?
No one was ever forced to buy a slave, so the fact that there were some African slaver owners willing to sell slaves in no way excuses any American buyers.
The Americans weren't buying African slaves in order to set the free after all.
Instead of fighting the world wide slave trade, they supported and participated in it, so they were as morally culpable as anyone else involved.
The basis of all bigotry is the cognitive mistake of not thinking of people as individuals.
Why not take your argument further and not think of anyone as a individual; then your argument could be, "the human race is guilty of many crimes including slavery therefore all humans deserve to be slaves."
Rocky J. Squirrel
Yes, I'm one of those few mythic creatures, a ./ poster with no Y chromosome. Though I'm not that chick-identified, here's some advice from the girl point of view:
1. Even the most progressive feminist can sometimes be profoundly cliche'd when thinking about marriage. Our society teaches and reinforces strong ideas and imagery around weddings and marriage from a very early age -- heterosexual women are steeped in cultural tradition around marriage. It's hard to fight decades of "this is every girl's dream".
2. If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond. Don't make her spend the next 50 years of her life looking down at her hand and thinking, "Instead of a diamond ring, I got a symbol of his political and social stance."
3. If you don't want to support new diamond sales, consider estate jewelry. For a reasonable price, you can buy a ring that has a sense of history to it, that is a beautiful thing, and is less charged with the modern baggage. For that matter, an estate jewelry specialist can also help you make the choice. Talk to a pro! Explain you want something beautiful and unique, that you want to spend X dollars, etc.
4. If you decide not to go with the diamond, give your bride-to-be *positive* language around your choice. Don't get her a different kind of ring because you don't like the social ramifications of diamond mining -- get her a different kind of ring because you don't feel a run-of-the mill diamond ring accurately reflects the special and unique qualities in her and in your relationship.
5. Don't use not getting a diamond as an excuse to skimp on the cost. Buying a 300.00 ring instead of a 3000.00 ring 'because diamonds are tainted with the blood of workers' says you were looking for an excuse to be cheap. It's not about the money, but it's not just the thought that counts, either.
6. Size *does* matter, but it cuts both ways. Dicks *and* diamonds can both be tooooo big.
I wish I had mod points.... +3 Insightful!
Tradditions have to be started sometime. Here at Texas A&M there is a joke about how if some students realize they have done something twice, well then its a traddition! This has led to lots of fun and interesting things over the years.
how is this news for nerds? nerds and women just dont mix.
(Score -5, intentional flamebait)
Just remember, in the dark all warm moist holes feel alike.
According to a friend's chemistry professor, diamonds are a rip-off anyway. The crystaline structure of the carbon atoms in diamonds isn't the most stable form of carbon. Apparently, diamonds aren't really "forever," they're only for a few billion years. Now graphite, on the other hand, now that's forever! (Or at least a lot closer!)
So buy her some pencil lead, and maybe one of those cool, high-dollar mechanical pencils to go with it!
(Disclaimer: I assume no responsibility for any bodily harm that may result from following this advice. I, myself, am happily married, and if you tell my wife I said this, I'll deny it.)
I went with a pre-owned stone and had it set in a new ring. No blood money, no ethical issues. But beware, older stones may have a cut that's a bit too steep; and they need to be polished/cleaned.
5 years and no complaints.
--- "1.21 Jigawatts!" -Doc
Sam once said. Its not the rock, its the PAIN you went through getting it!
One drawback to Titanium -- it shows scratches more readily than other metals. This was discussed to death in the thread a few months back about titanium wristwatches.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Whenever I buy anything, I always ask the question "What value (emotional or material) am I getting for my money?" I have never found a suitable answer to that question. Here are some of the answers, and why I disagree with them:
- "I'll stop nagging". Sorry, no dice here. I judge value by positives, by gains, not by lack of anything (nagging, etc). Anyone can tear down a building, but it takes a special man, an architect, to dream of building it in the first place. I give no heed to emotional vandals.
- "Buy this ring or I won't love you". Still no. Love is an emotion that derives from mutual respect (as opposed to lust, which is somewhat quicker to come by). You can't buy love, you can only earn it. This line is a good indication she already doesn't love you, and she's just gold-digging.
- "It will make me happy". Yeah, this is a tough one. Unfortunately, I live my life for myself, and I ask no man to go out of his way to help me. Similarly, I don't give my time and effort to others without some return consideration. You may call me cruel, but I hold the same moral and emotional standards and I do economic standards. Happiness is cheap (a walk on the beach, a trip to a rose garden), why should I spend two months' salary on something which can be had for free?
- "All my friends have them". As a previous poster noted, you're not marrying her friends, and neither is she. If her friends judge worth by the number of things they possess, that's her problem, not yours. If her friends judge worth by intelligence, they already know she's got them beat, and they're just jealous.
My conclusion is that there is nothing intrinsically valuable about diamonds, and for that reason, they are not worth the having.This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
Check Ebay, and you will see that several diamond wholesalers (apparently including Empire, mentioned in the article) are selling diamonds directly, creating more of a true free market. After all, if bidder #1 can pay $x for a diamond on Ebay, so will bidder #2.
Although diamonds appear NOT to be a time-honored tradition, they are (like a fancy wedding) a social norm, and undoing that will require a lot of new ads, or a very understanding spouse. Why not check out Ebay. Be sure to use Escrow & right of return, and have it appraised.
1) Its what she wants, and no matter what you feel, if that really what she wants then you should give it to her. Otherwise you're starting the marriage off with disappointment.
2) If you worry you're supporting blood deeds, then buy a used ring. Any pawn shop will have a selection at least the size of the local jeweler. After all Publishers complain used books dont pay rolalties, and neither do used rings.
3) The ring is a MAJOR factor as to how her girlfriends regard her and you. Get something other than a diamond and watch the polite compliments coming in. Every person she meets from then on will judge her by that ring.
4) If buying a ring at a pawn shop seems to impersonal, you can always buy one, have the stone removed and placed into a new setting.
5) Dont cheap out, in theory she will have to wear the thing for the rest of her life.
6) Since you're not going to surprise her with the ring than you might as well take her shopping for one. Dont buy it with her but learn the style she wants, that way you dont buy her some ugly white elephant of a ring that she's stuck with for life.
So when we got married, I pointed this out to her, and she still insisted on a $1000+ diamond for her wedding ring!
The good news is that the Russians and others are on the verge of producing man-made diamonds that are indistinguishable from natural ones with anything less than an electron microscope (which most gemologists don't have, last time I checked). This of course is the incentive for DeBeers to start engraving a tiny "signature" on each diamond to signify a natural diamond -- so what's to keep them from bootlegging diamonds just like they do rolexes? Anyway, the whole industry is going to come crashing down in a few years and that $1000 diamond will have a street value of about $100 bucks when that happens. But don't bother pointing that out to your fiancee -- logic seldom works in these cases.
This is very simple. Give her one of these $5 ethnic things -possibly something that has a special meaning somehow, something deeper-, and promise her your heart. All the rest is bullshit, and your love ain't nobody else's business.
:-P
If she needs expensive juwelery to be with you, you're headed nowhere anyway. The best way to show you love her is by loving her, instead of making up your deficiencies with money.
No matter how much tradition this is, this is just as much sexistic bullshit as 'woman at home taking care of kids'. This day and age you don't have to show your wealth, for all I know, she makes more money than you... Might just as well give her some cattle, not...
Don't get me wrong - it's very important to show your love, but I just don't see how a cold piece of glass makes you a better lover.
But, -my usual disclaimer-, I (and therefore my girlfriend too) am totally leftish and I tend to wipe my ass with toilet paper that has social conventions written on it.
Natural Emeralds are much more rare than natural diamonds -- and yet they cost half as much! This alone is proof of the sheer genius of the DeBeers marketing machine.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Go to the Arkansas state park that is a diamond mine and pay the small fee and look for your own diamond, pretty much avoids all the DeBeers crap that has been wrought upon the world.
Gemesis makes gem-quality synthetic diamonds. Knowing your objections to the way natural diamonds come to market, this may be a suitable alternative.
Get off my virtual lawn, you damned virtual kids!
I just got married myself... And I DID give my new wife a diamond ring, but she didn't like it because it was a big diamond that I bought; she liked it because it was an heirloom, passed down through my family. Just remember, this is theoretically something she should be remembering for the rest of her life; so worry more about the meaning of it than the price of it.
There's a company in Russia that claims to have perfected a process to make diamonds that are chemically (they even duplicated the mineral "impurities" natural diamonds have). Why not popularize those diamonds .. supposedly even the best jewellers cant tell naturally formed ones from these particular artficial diamonds.
I hope it gets popular so that diamonds become a commodity.
I watched this documentary about a girl who graduated as a geologist and the first thing she does is go out and find the largest diamond deposit in Canada.
I think they said she's worth $13 billion. Ouch!
Russian Ice, Moissanite, et. al.
No way that a layman could tell the difference.
Are you trying to justify what is done by Americans here?
Look at it this way. Americans and Europians were supposedly more knowledgable, had seen more of world and more powerful compared to those poor africans who captured poorer of them. Americans by all means could have lived without buying slaves, but for some africans, that might not have been the case.
Also had the slave-purchasers abondoned purchasing slaves, sellers would have been left with no motivation for this trade
Go ahead and buy some heroin from cash-stripped-for-drugs guy and try to tell the cops that real culprit is that cas-stripped-for-drugs-guy, who sold heroin to some innocent like you.
It has 100% to do with society. and in this society when a girl is engaged all her friends will be asking to see her hand. The bigger/better the rock the more status it represents.
You hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, IMO, you were using a crescent wrench... You are right-- it is about society.
Look, I was the only Quaker in my class in central Utah when I was growing up. I know all about being different. I can tell you that people have two reactions-- they are either facinated with the difference or they are repulsed. They tend to be more fascinated as they grow up too...
So, while you are right in all your points, I think the deeper issue is still, does it have to be a diamond? I think the answer is no, but personally, there I think people will notice the ring more if it is NOT what they expect but at least as magnificent. But here are some issues that need to be addressed:
1: Diamonds have come to be a symbol of permanence. This actually goes back to Roman times (thought they put their diamonds into the gold, and didn't show them off). However, there are plenty of other things that could suffice (titanium for example, or ruby).
2: Societal expectations-- quick advice, ignore this one. People tend to look twice when they are surprised. Just make sure you exceed their expectations elsewhere.
3: Cheap image. People think of diamonds as being the epitomy of wealth. So, if your ring costs at least as much as you would exect to pay for a diamond one, this goes out the window....
Here are some good reasons to break with tradition:
1: Uniqueness. If the ring is especially beautiful and unique, it will be more special, I think.
2: Personality. Diamonds are pretty, but I think they are also somewhat bland. personally I like them as supporting stones, but not as main stones.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Uh, I hate to burst your bubble, people, but being materialistic, particularly as regards to selection of men, is evolutionarily very advantageous for women.
Think about it. Take two women, one who is materialistic and one who isn't. The materialistic success of a potential partner doesn't matter to the non-materialistic woman, but does to the materialistic one. So the woman who is materialistic is more likely to end up partnering with a guy who is materially successful than the woman who isn't.
End result? The materialistic woman is more likely to end up with offspring who are more capable of being materially successful than non-materialistic woman and, on top of that, the offspring of the materialistic woman will be better provided for.
Material success is strongly tied to the ability to provide for a family. The more materially successful you are, the greater the resources you have at your disposal to provide well for your offspring. The better you can provide for your offspring, the greater their chances of survival. The better their ability to provide for themselves (i.e., to inherit your success traits), the greater their chances of survival and reproduction. And the odds of survival and reproduction are the only things that matter in evolutionary terms.
So if you were to start with those two women and look at their extended family many generations later, you'll probably find that the materialistic woman has more descendants and that those descendants are materially better off, on average, than the descendants of the non-materialistic woman.
Eventually, the materialistic types will dominate the population. Which, I think, is exactly the situation we see today. And it's no coincidence that those greedy types happen to be the most successful, as well. Why else do you think greedy entities like Microsoft, the RIAA, etc., are all so powerful and successful? It's because they're run by people who are also greedy and materialistic -- the very trait which enables them to succeed.
There is more truth than you can imagine in the phrase "nice guys finish last". You can thank evolution for it.
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
Jeez-lou-fucking-eez. It sounds like you are in the kind of social circle where that kind of thing is really important. You're probably going to spend a lot on the wedding and honeymoon, too. You go, boy. When my wife and I got married about 14 years ago, we were poor college students. My wife didn't want an engagement ring of any type. She had just returned from three years of volunteering in Burkina Faso. The idea of wearing something worth many years of a person's earnings on her finger was very unappealing. And yeah, we were cheap. Our entire wedding cost $1500. Then, we went on a 101 day honeymoon which cost $30 per day, total. You can have a life without spending a lot of money. By the way, I don't believe anyone ever mentioned the lack of a ring or rock.
I got my fiance a sapphire and she loves it. Most blue sapphires come from Sri Lanka, which are called Ceylon sapphires. Some of the other colors like yellow may come from the US though.
... it has to be set at the manufacturer.
One thing to note about sapphires is that they're denser than diamonds and you'll need a greater carot size to fill the same space.
Another interesting idea is to get a tension setting. Instead of having the gem attached to a few strands of metal. The gem is actually squeezed very tighly between two parts of the band. There are only a few manufacters of this style, I purchased a Gelin & Abaci
one thing to note is that the jeweler can't set the stone
Whatever the marketing says, from a scientific point of view, diamonds realy are pretty cool. A well cut diamond coupled with its refractive index (sorry don't have a value there!!) make for great internal reflections (ie sparkle / fire), and its cubic crystalline structure and hardness (useful for writing on glass) give it many edges over all other stones, topped in my mind perhaps by the massively understated appearance of Platinum (makes diamonds look cheap!). My wifes other interest lies oin the many from of Corundum, not quite as hard as diamond, but harder than most othere things on earth.
A diamond is as close on this earth to something that truly is forever, and as such, (marketing or not) is a great symbol of love. They are not the be all and end all of true love, but I sure bought one, and when it was lost somehwere in the US, I was not particularly upset - it was a lot of money, but we had a different 'real' engagement ring that has no stones, just some kinetic bits and is very uncomfortable to wear.
So, go ahead enjoy that beatiful pice of carbon, but if you realy want it to look great, check out the cut - Lazare have the perfect cut patented I think - cost (add 10-20% more!!!!)
Oh, and if someone in Seattle has found (lost about 3+ yrs ago) a 1 Ct flawless diamond on a very odd sideways setting with a ring cast with my finger prints, then I would love to have it back, just for the ring - it can only ever be ours, we would certainly be grateful $$$$$.
Try the following - Buy the stone separately.
Don't go to any storefront jeweler - his markup
is often 400%.
What stone?
-a very pale or even clear topaz has a lot of
sparkle and a lot cheaper! my personal choice.
-aquamarine is pricier, but still good sparkle.
-a clear or pale sapphire.
OR
- find a stone in her favorite color.
sapphires are in all sorts of colors.
- use her birthstone.
- if her favorite stone isn't a diamond then you're in! How to find out - go to a crafts show with her and look at the jewelry with her.
Look at what she wears in fake stuff...
Get a ring designed- often no more expensive and much more personal reflection of your love.
Craft shows are a good place to find someone to do the work.
For the record....
My first engagement ring was a garnet set in a very interesting ring design. my hubbie and i exchanged rings. i gave him a silver dragon ring.
Later he bought a 3ct blue sapphire and designed the ring with a local artist and had it made.
for one of our anniverseries he gave me another -
2 sapphires one yellow, one cornflower - designed
for me.
Don't want a diamond.
Rather than trust a gut feeling, ASK HER!!!!!
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Isomil/Soy is our son's preferred formula - it produces less gas than the milk-based formulas we've tried.
The bad part is it smells horrible, and I fear Junior's taste buds may be scarred for life!
And as for diapers, Huggies run a little smaller than Pampers, and are easier to seal. Pampers, OTOH, seem to have a higher capacity for yucky stuff.
Seriously,
Compare it to fur, but think human beings, little children, not skinned but maimed, hands cut off, mothers slaughtered before their eyes, and then you're getting close to the real value of diamonds.
These little gems have since previous century been gained with the blood of others.
You might as well slaughter a pig and hose your girlfriend down with the blood if she doesn't get the point.
My now wife and I have settled for white gold, very classy, very simple and lasts more than a lifetime.
It's expensive as well and has real resale value.
And yes, we love each other and like the rings.
There you go.
When I got engaged to my wife, I wanted to give her a special ring for her engagement. I found out that she had her mother's engagement ring, but three of the diamonds (there were five total) had been removed. Two were in a pair of ear studs she'd had made years ago; the other was in a pendant she'd given a niece.
I had the stones removed from the ear studs and put back in. I then took the diamond out of a ring that my father had worn and had given to me when he passed away and used it to replace the last one. So in a way, I gave her a ring that was part of her family, and mine.
Maybe not much help to you, but I was happy.
Save the battles for the things that really count like what night you get to go out with the boys to get beers or who owns the remote.
This one is a loser. Get her the diamond, and save the political discourse on someone you can win with.
There is no substitute for big shiny diamond.
Bling f'n Bling.
Although there are many conflicting responses here, the majority are very valid points.
Yes, the value of diamonds is in the eyes of the potentially evil diamond merchants. And yes, the beauty of diamonds is of extreme importance to the female populace as a whole.
But are these responses really what you are asking for. Obviously, your ethics preclude financing violence and terror. It is just as obvious that your ethics rebel against hurting your fiance.
Maybe you could find an individual who is selling a ring. You may find someone in need so that you know your money is going to help someone. Even if you have to have it resized, or want to use the stone to make a different ring, you can find a local jeweler who will sell you his labor to feed his family.
It's all how you rationalize it, but there is always an answer.
diamond sales
And I used to sell/buy diamonds (Pawn industry) and Nothing loses value as fast.
(about 3 bucks a point for an okay quality stone, so 1 carat 300 bucks, hows that for ROI?)
^_^
Grell
...when it gets down to fundamentals, do what you have to do and shed no tears. Dr. Matson in Tunnel in the Sky
The oil crises of the 70s seem to contradict this. Considering the degree to which the US economy relies on cheap oil, it is conceivable that the US would (and has) gone to war over oil. In the case of the gulf war, If Iraq had kept Kuwait, it would have had double its previous slice of the piped-oil supply. Its likely and probable that the US did go to war over oil in that case.
Wait, you mean geeks have girlfriends? Damn, I got it all wrong. I thought geeks married their computers and made love to their network connections.
I look forward to having a girlfriend like that. Until recently I would definitely have been caught up in the GetMeARockNOW plan, but next time .. I plan on remembering your story.
sulli
RTFJ.
Diamond decay... they do..albeit slowly. In a hundred million years, the diamond will turn into vapor.
That's how long it's going to take me to have sex once I finally get a girlfriend, have a long-term relationship, and plan a wedding?!?
No wonder I'm going grey already!
Emacs: for people who just never know when to
Not only do I have a wonderful fiancee, but she prefers the old Irish tradition. She wears a claddagh, a ring with two hands holding a heart and a crown. Most Irish girls get one well before engagement, worn with the heart out and the crown towards their wrist to indicate their availability.
/'kel-tik/ -- I don't care if you *are* from Boston!
When they get engaged, they flip the ring over, with the crown out and the heart pointed in to indicate they're taken. And the best part is, no diamond ever leaves the ground for the deal!
My honey also insisted that if she was going to wear a ring, so must I. So, I have a silver Celtic* knot band on my left ring finger.
* That's
Ask your doctor if getting up off your ass is right for you! -- Bill Maher
Gentlemen and ladies,
:D
Here are the 3 rings of love:
First, the engagement ring.
Next, is the wedding ring.
Last is the suffer-ring.
bah dump bump!
Pardon the troll, just trying to push this story into the HOF!
----
HEYYYYYY THERE ARMY
Get in your tanks and follow me!
I am Marine Corps Infantry
HEYYYYYY THERE NAVY
Get in your ships and follow me!
I am Marine Corps Infantry
HEYYYYYY THERE AIR FORCE
Get in your planes and follow me!
I am Marine Corps Infantry
HEYYYYYY THERE CIVILIANS
Get off your butts and follow me!
I am Marine Corps Infantry
OORAH!
My Fiance's engagement ring is is a silver ring with three blue topazs.
It's still "showy", but almost 70% cheaper than the same sized/designed silver & diamond ring.
The fact that it was her birth stone and she knew I made the special effort to get it offset that it wasn't a diamond.
However, the real ring must be real, and to quote "I don't care if it's a flake, it's gotta be real."
You know, I think about that every time I clear a tube, and it brings a huge smile to my face. Hooray for the DEA!
Most industrial diamonds (over 90%) are synthetic and cheap. Most are used for diamond-coated saw blades. These are used for grunt work like cutting concrete, and are a common, expendable tool.
Just before our wedding, I was looking at wedding rings with my fiancee. The jeweler had a new line of titanium rings with an inlaid band of rose gold. I thought these were the coolest possible choice: symbolically durable, practically lightweight, fashionably high-tech. And I, at least, thought them pretty.
She shot down that idea like a wounded bustard. Still calls me weird for even considering it.
I'm giving her my mom's old engagement ring. Has a diamond (sigh).
... but it just pissed me off too much.
... whatever 6 thousand dollars and put it in a trust fund in your joint name.
I suggest you take he same
She won't like it? Ash her if she'd like an extra $45,000 when she retires. That's what a 6 grand will be worth in 30 years at 7%. (Could easily be more if you invest wisely.)
Alternately, ask her if she would like her children to go to harvard or a tech school.
Ask her if she would rather live in a house or a trailer.
The two of you should be deciding what is meaningful, not a multi-billion dollar advertising (brainwashing) campaign.
And, yes, for the record, I have a girlfriend and we may well get married sometime. We will likely pick out an antique ring or a nice colored stone (saphire, etc) somewhere. I am find of a simple, clean, gold band. But I will NOT have a huge bon-fire of cash just to impress Mrs. Grundy across the street. Mrs. Grundy has been BRAIN-WASHED and should probably be pitied, but not indulged.
Mod me down, I don't care.
The idea that diamonds are a time-honored tradition is nonsense also. Many of my grandparents generation wouldn't have dreamed of pissing away money on diamonds. We're talking the 1940's here. This obsession with diamonds is a very new thing, it's just people seem to wallow in their ignorance of even the recent past.
If someone leaves you because, and only because, you don't buy her a diamond ring - she's done you a huge favor.
sulli
RTFJ.
This poster is absolutely correct. I had no idea what a "conflict diamond" was, but I certainly know the history of blood diamonds.
If she wants a diamond, get her a diamond, and don't be cheap about it.
..don't panic
Canada prides itself by selling "slavery free" diamonds. Not so many people know but Canada is a large diamond exporter. You pay more but you know that your $ is going to the right place. We need to stop supporting slavery.
Have you heard of moissanite? This is the best substitute you can find. It was on 20/20 about 3 years ago very difficult to tell the different between a real diamond and the moissanite stone.
The cost is about an 1/8 of the cost of a diamond.
http://www.moissanitestore.com/
Professional jewelers using man made carbon crystal.
Fulfills the "rock on her finger" requirement. Thereby solving the "admiring friends" dilemma.
Indistinguishable from high quality diamond. Which makes it higher in quality than the commercial grade stuff in the usual engagement ring case. Which means the actual rock looks better.
Prices are a lot more reasonable so you're not wasting cash on something worth 1/100th what you're spending.
No slave labor, smugglers, or terrorists were involved.
All that and you avoid being robbed by a conglomerate to perpetuate misery.
Here's a URL for ya.
http://www.moissanite.com/
And hey, they're not the only game in town. Several other man made carbon crystal makers were mentioned in this thread. So competition will be working for you to maximize the value.
Garnets and gold, that is. Gorgeous rings; lovely wyfe designed them herself.
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Diamonds are not scarce. The only reason they're considered valuable is because the diamond / jewelry companies have conviced people that diamonds are rare should be kept. Diamonds are actually quite abundant. If people treated them as such, the prices would drop dramatically and make them more affordable.
You have no choice.
Really, you don't.
First, if you girlfriend did not want a Diamon then you'd be in good standing. She would be willing to explain to everyone why her ring doesn't have a diamond, etc.
But, since you think she wants a diamond she will NOT being willing to explain it all the time. It will be a source of conflict in your relationship.
It won't even necessarily be obvious, but it will be there. No matter what she says.
Forever.
so the rule is,
You're supposed to spend 2 months of income on a ring.
Here's my fix:
Pretend that you got laid of from your job.
Go buy yourself a Burger King uniform and tell her you're now only earning $6 / hour instead of $40.
40-6=36
$36*40 hours * 8 weeks = $11,520 in savings to spend on laptops and stuff.
If you get caught, DO NOT take her up on her offer to have you appologize on the Jerry Springer show.
First Post!!
tail to get her in the mood, *then show her the diamond!
If you think about it, the purchase and giving of an expensive bauble (such as a diamond ring) is a rough equivalent to paying a (um) woman-of-the-evening, for her services for the evening. It is different in cost, of course, and in its view by our culture, but it still amounts to a purchase.
"Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"
Indeed, part of the comparisons between marriagable women about how good their rings are is probably just a comparison of how much someone is willing to pay for them.
Were we to look back a ways we'd see the complexity of things - usually involving "payments" in both directions - often between families (or between the husband to be and the wife's family or the other way around).
Think of doweries, brideprice and the like. (When was the last time you heard of a woman bringing a dowery into a marriage? Or a man paying a brideprice to the woman's family?)
We would also see how often these traditions have changed - and of how variable they are between cultures (even cultures closely related).
Me? I'd take her out to a local area where there are crystals (preferably something like garnets) to be had, pick a good one out and take it back to be set. (Or even two so we could have a matched set). But then too, I'd not be much interested in someone who was obsessed with proving how much she can be pimped for - and I'd find someone interested in going out and finding good stones much more amenable.
n/t
Do you think the fucking topaz miners are doing any better?
Just buy the fucking diamond and shut up you whiny bitch.
This
If she'll go for it:
Buy her a nice, wide platinum band, and get a very small diamond set pave style in the band. It would not cost very much to get the work done.
1) The platinum will keep it's value.
2) Most people don't know what platimun looks like (it's not shiney like gold or silver), so the chance of someone going after her ring is reduced.
3) With a small diamond, the chance of someone going after her ring is reduced.
4) It would be a very unique ring, and not look like the usual shite commercial jewelers push.
If you haven't already, read The Last Empire for the complete story on diamonds in South Africa, and DeBeers in specific. Bastards, the lot.
Congratulations, and best of luck.
Mike Nomad
hey, who got uid 600000?
Then I'm gonna buy my girl drugs instead!!
Hey baby, sorry I didn't get you a diamond; here's an eight-ball instead.
As I understand it in many other countries including GB it is far more common to give a saphire ring than a diamond.
All employees must wash hands before using the bathroom. - The Mgmt.
To a certain extent, it's like showing up for an interview in "nice clothes", or any of a million other social niceties; it's not that the action is useful in and of itself, it's that it shows your willingness to act in a potentially inconvenient way to meet an external standard.
That said, the answer to your question is "No."
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Hmm...this will be a 0 point post and will not get read "widely" - but looking at the number of replies, you have touched a nerve! Good question. Contrary to popular opinion, not everyone that reads /. is a nerd.
I have followed the manipulated diamond market story for a long time. Diamonds are "forever" because you can't sell them for anything like what you paid for them. The diamond industry is rumored (?) to have sponsored that James Bond movie. They have pretty sophiticated tools and lot of money for mind control.
If this issues bothers you as much as it does me, discuss this early in the relationship.
I feel strongly enough that I'll never marry a girl who wants a diamond. Get another "really rare" rock if she wants a rock. For me they are all just different colored rocks and I don't like to be manipulated.
I bought my fiancee a sapphire ring, at her request. I got a much larger and more attractive stone for the money, it's almost as durable, she gets compliments on it all the time, and we didn't support any evil monopolies. If there were ever another company as thoroughly disgusting as Microsoft, it's DeBeers.
Actually, a lot of them come from Ecuador, (but that is mostly true in Europe, I suppose).
The drug trade would not exist if it didn't fund itself. However, many of the third-world rose factories have pretty abominable conditions. But this is different because the market is not so tightly controlled. As the economy develops (which it can with the tourism money going into many of these countries), it will be harder to find workers that will put up with those conditions. (That is why I am starting a business promoting tourism to Ecuador, Brazil, etc. write if you want more info).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Well, you gotta dig for them yourself (leave the squeeze behind and save $4.40), but think of the money and sleep you'll save!
Another plus is that many modern rings are butt ugly, IMHO. The few rings in my family from my grandparents' generation are very beatiful.
Buy her the freaking diamond you jackass. Do you ever want to die a virgin?
While it is true that diamonds are a rip-off, they are a VERY sentimental rip-off. What hardDiamond's honey wants and needs is an expensive show of hardDiamond's sentimentality/devotion to her (to show her friends). May I suggest the following:
1) Talk to her again. Find out the 2nd-best thing to a diamond -- an emerald, a 2-week trip to Panama in 5-star hotels, a new car, etc (not pencils) -- something that really is HER that shows YOUR devotion and sentimentality.
2) (Since she already knows your feelings the following won't be a surprise -- she'll probably know where it is going.) Tell her that you simply don't feel comfortable buying a diamond (if she doesn't like it, remember, you are trying to reach a compromise -- and in a marriage almost nothing should be uncompromisable).
3) You and her (mostly her) pick out a cubic zirconia and fixture that will serve the purpose of show-off-ability.
4) Give her your actual sentimental gift, but beyond what she could have expected. You have to pull this off perfectly, or the next step will be quite bitter.
5) Give her ring on bended knee. If she appreciated your other gift, she might feel a bit silly at this point. If she didn't really like it... well, you didn't like diamonds, did you?
6) You yourself act super-poor for a while (so that everybody thinks you went overboard with both a diamond and the other gift).
-- ALTERNATIVE PLAN --
Same as above, but secretly get her a small diamond to be presented in step #5, to show how you are willing to compromise (make sure she realizes that it is not the cubic zirconia that she picked out). If you don't spend too much on step #3 (and she is pissed), she'll forgive you.
Ok gals don't kill me for saying this. But if I've learned one thing about women, especially those who we date/get engaged to/have married, it is that logic and reason does not always drive their desires. That is the case my friend with diamonds. To us guys (who are ruled by logic, not emotion or other forces) a diamond seems like an aweful waste of valuable cash. Even for a cheap ring (about $1k) you could get some pretty useful tools, or fun toys. Seemingly the only value of a diamond is its sparkle and the thought behind it. I guess it is the same as flowers, to us guys it doesn't make sense, but to my fiance, a bunch of dead plants means the world if I give her a nice boquet for no reason. So buck up, save up, and dish out, no amount of political correctness or reason could replace a ring for your love. Trust me, even the most expensive ring pales in comparison to the value of your relationship, so make her day and get something that sparkles.
Obviously, you should get her a Java Ring. They just released a new version that not only incorporates a Java Virtual Machine, but has 134 KB of space for downloaded programs. If she still wants a diamond, simply point out that a diamond can't do an RSA calculation in under one second.
[Insert pithy quote here]
Whoa! People on slashdot have girl friends? have you ever seen her in real life?
If you go with a local jeweler (not one in the megamall, the one on main street) they'll let you know who their source is, and 9 out of 10 times they'll let you know how their source gets the diamonds. Yes there's only a few mines, and yes they're hotly contested (with AK-47's and such) but there are diamonds that you can buy that don't come with blood on them. You just have to know your jeweler, and their source.
Diamond (aka, coal) has no real value whatsoever. It's rarity is entirely artificial. While gold is elemental and rare-unless of course you do some funky chemistry-diamond is just crystalized carbon atoms. Actually, sand is probably more useful since it is easier to work with (already granular) and it is also a strong crystal (silicon). There is plenty of diamond already and plenty of diamond to be made, all you need is carbon-which we aren't running out of anytime soon-and a few million years. Diamonds sell for so much because after westerners strip-mined Africa for its gold, they found a crapload of this carbon crystal that looked kinda neat but didn't really do anything. So, lacking any more gold to steal, they got women intersted in it and made it into a fortune. In all fairness, if someone tried the same stunt today they'd probably get their asses sued off by some government somewhere, but nobody does anything new because loosing the diamond industry would hurt any economy, no matter how you cut it (no pun intended), and nobody in office wants to do anything that would make it look like they were hurting the economy.
`which fortune`
Get her a ring with a big hunk of Germanium on it. It's just as expensive + rare, unique and she'll know you put a lot of effort into getting it.
And if that fails steal some moon rock and use that instead.
All I can say is that I am glad my wife was a pratical person and was ok with having a CZ instead of a "real" diamond!
IANAL... But I play one on
A few weeks ago I was momentarily inspired to ask my girlfriend to marry me. Having no ring, I quickly looked around for an alternative and my eye caught on a bar of soap. I briefly considered grabbing it and holding it under running water to carve out a ring with my fingers and use that.
When I asked her about this tonight, she said that she would have accepted, but would have wanted a diamond ring to follow it up.
An ex-girlfriend of mine seemed to be happy with the twist-tie I gave her in a romantic moment. She moved away for a better job, not for the lack of a diamond ring.
In more than one way. But seriously, do the following: A diamond on your future wife's finger will be shown to all her girlfriends and relatives. Instead of having your judgement (a guy's judgement) of what diamond to get, put her to the test. I'm not married, but the following has been done by several people I know, after I heard about it and suggested it. Someone you know must know a jeweler. Figure out what is the most expensive diamond you can afford. Then work from there. When you propose, pull out a velvet bag with about ten diamonds in it, including the most expensive, plus lower priced ones that you can better afford, and pour them out in front of her. Have her decide which one she wants. Your job is to figure out what to say when you pull out the bag. It's up to her to select the diamond. Hint: One guy I know who's wife to be picked the biggest diamond ended up divorced a few years later over money troubles. Another guy whose wife to be picked a smaller diamond has been happily married for over ten years. Same with a couple of others.
If she pulls out a jeweler's magnifying glass (I've actually seen this) expect trouble.
You should be able to find a jeweler willing to go along with this. Unless you know the jeweler personally, (and even possibly then), expect to put up a cash bond equal to the jewels, and possibly a small fee for lending 10-12 diamonds. But the jeweler should go along with it if he knows you or is secure in the value of the diamonds. And she will have a wide selection to choose from because you probably won't pick any that are too small.
If she's worth anything, she won't pick the biggest diamond. Then you can both go back to jeweler about setting/appraising/etc. And you will have saved yourself some money. And you will know that she'll be happy, because when she shows her diamond, she'll know she picked it, and won't be embarrased because of its size.
Since most of us equate size with value, I suggest that you make sure the larger diamonds are more valuable, not always the way diamond pricing works (clarity, flaws, color, etc)
emuff said?
*sigh* - jet lag.
It's probably been mentioned already, but Canada is starting produce diamonds that you can by with a clean conscience. Most are mined in the Northwest Territories by well paid, national health care covered miners.
You will pay more for one, but it's better than supporting the virtual slavery that goes on in other mining areas.
I have always thought diamonds were a colossal bore. They look like glass or at best, cubic zirconia. I wanted (and got) a sapphire. My husband has an equal loathing for gold-colored metal. He really wanted titanium, but at the time we couldn't find anyone who worked in that metal. So we compromised on white gold. While everyone thought it was pretty strange at the time, I have since read that sapphires are the #2 engagement ring stone.
However, if she really wants diamonds, you can always seek out a good quality antique and have a new setting made. At least in that case, the miners are long dead and you aren't putting currently living humans at risk.
In the grand scheme of things diamonds are pretty boring gemstones with the majority cut as generic brilliants. Consider sapphires instead. I spent a year mining sapphires in Australia and really liked the golden yellows, grassy greens, and parti colors (stones with multiple colors often blue, green, yellow). Sapphires are actually a lot rarer than diamonds, rank 9 on the hardness scale, and make great gemstones.
Now for the bad news... If you didn't know it or suspect it already diamonds, sapphires, and just about all gemstones in retail stores are are grossly over-priced small crappy stones. A decent rough sapphire, short of flawless rubies and truly phenomenal material, usually cost anywhere from $5-15 a caret rough. So you buy a 10 caret stone (~$100), have it cut in Thailand for a few cents a caret (bad advice), loose about 2/3 (the average) and wind up with a 3 caret cut stone. In the US this stone could go for anywhere from $300-$800 a caret or $900-$2400 retail.
The trick is too buy directly from miners. They are typically starving, will cut you a good deal, and really appreciate non-taxable cash. Rubyvale and Sapphire Queensland, Tanzania, and Uganda are relatively good safe places to do this. Have the stones cut by a reputeable local faceter and pay someone to fabricate a ring to match. I guarantee you'll wind up with a piece of jewelry a heck of lot nicer than whats in the shops.
The "3 C's" are a marketing gimmick. Heres some more concrete advice... When buying cut gemstones be sure to look at them outside in the sunshine. This is important! Bad light hides flaws and distorts the true color of the stone. Make sure has good color (that you like). It should be clear and *bright*. Make sure the stone has sharp meets, ie where the facets come togethor. Determine this with a 10x loupe or magnifier. If the meets don't meet is was cut for crap (most are). The bottom of the stone should reflect light like a sea of mirrors. If it doesn't or you can see through the bottom it was cut at the wrong angle, is too shallow, or is crappy material. A good stone looks good, accept nothing less. If there is anything suspicious or strange about the stone or dealer don't buy - they are trying to rip off.
Short of being a gemologist with a well equipped lab there is no way for you to determine if a stone is synthetic. Certificates don't mean shit. Buy stones you *like* not for investment. You are bound for dissappointment otherwise.
Azurite is fine covellite is mine.
I wanted an small emerald from Tiffany's for the sentimental value (actually Tiffany's is no more expensive, we went and checked) but my husband got talked into a typical 1/4 carat diamond and matching band by a local jeweler when I wasn't there. That incident should have been my warning of what was to come. The marriage lasted 24 years because I am a very patient person. I didn't take the diamond or the band with me when I left. I did take my computer, though. It took me 15 years to get him to "let" me buy one.
As mentioned here, if the diamond's pink or purple, it's almost certainly from the Argyle diamond pipe in Australia. There's a nice picture of one at the 247k site.
Actually, the odds of getting a sleaze-free coloured diamond are reasonably good. Quote from the 247 site:
As for Argyle being sleaze-free, a quote from the mine owner, Rio Tinto.
So no slave labour or De Beers sleaze. Whether the price is a rip-off is another matter.Zoe Brain - Rocket Scientist
I've been to a couple of Japanese weddings, and they struck me as even more materialistic than their North American counterparts -- they are generally held indoors on tight schedules and involve the wearing of many tacky wedding dresses, the use of fake 'priests' for a western look, gigantic fake wedding cakes, and then at the end of it all the man ends up giving his wife his pay check for the rest of his life so that she can give him a little allowance.
Your wedding really does sound to have been fantastic, but don't go thinking that it's by any means normal for a modern Japanese wedding.
...because if I did not, I would not been able to wear my jewelry when we went out together.
We came to an agreement, though. My total carat weight has to be less than hers. Luckily she has more than the rings.
It pays to have jewelers in the Family.
-m
When I got engaged twelve years ago (married nine months later) I bought a very pretty emerald-cut saphire (with small diamond bagettes). My wife loved it, and even now she has comments on how pretty her ring is. The wedding bad was alternating saphires and diamonds, like an "eternity band".
These days, I might replace the diamonds with amathyist, which make a nice contrast to the the sapphire.
I just bought a diamond engagement ring last weekend and I ended up getting a "RAND" diamond. I didn't look at Canadian diamonds, so I can't compare the two, but there were some cool things about it that I liked:
- its guarenteed conflict free and the guy who mined it signs the certificate.
- RAND diamonds are cut much more precise than a typical diamond. This affects how sparkley (sp?) the diamond is. The only salesperson who really talked about the Cut "C" was this person selling the RAND. Other places referred to "cut" as the category of shape, when in fact cut has to do with how precise the diamond is shaped. [I was told] diamond makers will often sacrifice precision and symmetery in the cut to squeeze as many carats as possible out of a rock (thus increasing price)--however, this negatively affects the overall quality of the diamond cut since light doesn't reflect as nicely and it's less sparkley.
From what I understand, not many places sell RAND diamonds. If you're having trouble finding a place, I got mine from the brick and mortar version of http://www.frankadams.com (family run business, so there's only one store). Also, I noticed http://www.bluenile.com rates the quality of the cut on their site; although I don't think they sell the RAND brand.
As far a price... I paid about a 5% premium to get the RAND over a similiar non-RAND diamond in clarity and color (although the RAND's cut is typically much better). Anyways, I thought the cost was well justified for the good cut and fact that my money won't go to support terrorists.
Anyways, am I glad I got it? You bet! Is my girlfriend/future fiancee? Ask me after I surprise her this weekend! (posted anonymously in case she's reading!)
Anybody remember Paul, from the Diamond Center? He'll get you the best price and the best financing in town!
:-)
See? Nothing to worry about.
The other thing to do is to work with a small local jeweler, rather than a big chain. Your stones will generally be of higher quality and they usually want your repeat business so they'll try to get you a good deal. They're also even more appreciative in these troubled economic times.
Good luck with the shopping and the engagement...
That is all.
If you don't have the treasured ring of an older relative, how about buying a vintage ring. Other correspondents have said that diamond rings have a very low resale value. So, buying a vintage ring this should be in your favour. Buying one from a pawnbroker is probably going to seem like bad luck. How about doing a google search for estate jewelry?
On the other hand some fraction of the gold jewelry made prior to 1960 is contaminated with recycled gold that was radioactive because it had been used to enclose Radon seeds implanted as a cancer therapy. As the Radon decayed radioactive decay products got plated onto the gold
Whatever they need? I say they go up into space
and nuke palestine from orbit, only way to be
sure.
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/data/2002/ 03/01/html/ft_20020301.1.html
This sums it all up
Article in NG Magazine March 2002.
you must purchase a diamond
MUST
I agree with the AC: Might as well give her the best shoes you can to walk all over you.
I mean really, not only would you give up your money to please this women you'd give up your morals? That's just sad.
If my gf/fiance demanded I do something I had a moral problem with, I'd just get a new gf. (well, if I couldn't get her to accept that I wasn't going to do it)
I'm not saying that buying a diamond is that bad, but that's a pretty weak argument.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
People are spending thousands for DENSE LUMPS OF CARBON!?!
:(
I'm sorry, I honestly don't get it. And thank goodness, neither does my wife. We each have a lovely pair of white gold bands, that will easily last our lifetime.... and if they do wear out, we'll buy new ones.
If the what kind of ring you have is going to have any kind of impact on your relationship whatsoever, you're in serious trouble. If you're not sure what her reaction would be, maybe try spending a little more time with the person and get to know them better, cause maybe you're not ready to get engaged yet...
Your wonderful girlfriend who actually cares for you and is going to marry you might or might not want a diamond. What a tough life you have. Tell me, if I buy the woman I love a $50,000 diamond, will she care for me at all? Of course not. Same way for you - if she doesn't love you without the diamond, she doesn't love you with it either. You poor bastard, you are loved. How I pity you. FOAD.
By your argument, I assume that you don't buy the argument that most heroin sales support terrorism (making users guilty of that)?
Does ANYONE believe that? The reality in Afghanistan was that drugs supported our allies in the northern alliance then did the taliban after Bush gave them (the taliban) a bunch of money to stop growing it.
Of course the taliban probably considered them terrorists, but whatever.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
- Moral problems. I wouldn't worry about it. If you can find me ANYTHING that doesn't trace back to a morally questionable act, I'll be damn surprise (actually, I won't believe you). Shit happens to everyone. Some of us are just lucky as hell not to be born into it. If you think it matters, you and your to-be fiance can join the Peace Corps together.
- Cost/Worth. Find yourself a decent, mom-and-pop jeweler. My jeweler guaranteed that he would buy back my stone (and ring) at any point in the future for the purchase price. Furthermore, my ring is insured for approximately $1000 dollars more than what I pair for it. Find yourself a REAL jeweler and you'll reap the benefits.
- About communicating: some people said "Why the hell don't you talk with your wife about this?" Well, unlike most geek nerds, I picked out my wife's ring with NO (absolutely NONE) consultation of her. I spent about two months doing it. I look at hundreds of mountings. I look at many stones. I basically took a design and customized it to perfection. I had no doubt that she wouldn't flip over it. I completely surprised her. THAT is why I wouldn't talk to her about it. I didn't need HER to pick it out. I have a sense of taste and style and futhermore, that taste matches hers.
Regards,Mark
Actually it's way off base. It wasn't until the US started providing aid to Taliban Afghanistan that the Taliban cracked down on Opium production. And it wasn't a capital offence. If you got caught they marched you down the street warring a wreath of opium and then threw you in jail for like a month. The punishment for being clean shaven was higher.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The taliban stoped the growing of opium, as per our request, but dumped their stock as soon as we declared 'war' in order rase capital to fight us off.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Look how much money is wasted on the traditions of marriage. I dropped a wad on my wife's engagement ring, but then her mother dropped a wad and a half on the wedding, and my wife dropped half a wad on her gown. A couple years later, we wished we had saved one of those wads for furniture, but we couldn't specify what we would have wanted to give up.
Wasting money on a useless but ever-conspicuous bauble is not always a waste. Some women, such as my wife, want to feel, and want their friends to feel, that they were bought for a high price. And truth be told, I don't mind people knowing that I paid a high price for her.
And she was a good investment. She's even taught herself to reupholster furniture!
hehe, just kidding. If she's the right one, her income will help you purchase even MORE HARDWARE. ;-)
Look for a cool looking antique ring or one at a pawn shop.
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
My wife and I shopped around for an engagement ring for some time before we finally found one that said "take me home". It seemed to us that all of the diamond engagement rings were all too similar and too glitzy. Both of us also have a strong subconcious need to not be like-everyone-else(tm). Besides, for something as personal as a engagement/wedding ring, it only makes sense to get one that has as much personal significance to the wearer as possible.
But just because you decide not to go with a diamond, don't think that you're going to get off cheap. This particular ring cost about $500. Still, it was well worth it in my opinion.
---
No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking. -Voltaire
--- Ad Astra Per Aspera
Yes, diamonds are a ripoff, yes it's a cartel (just like UAE oil) where they fix the price.
But I've got to say if she wants a diamond get her a diamond. Hopefully this purchase also makes you really think about if this is the one you want to buy that ring for. Trust me, this is the time to think about that...not AFTER you've said, "I DO."
I'm logical and practical. I knew my fiance didn't have the money and this wasn't either of our first marriages, so I suggested a ring with some small white saphires for an engagement/wedding band. It was about $100.
We've been married for 6 years and we're very much in love. But I hope when it gets around to the 10 year aniversary I can get something a little nicer. It's impractical, but as it is I rarely wear my wedding ring.
If there are any upcoming Rock and Mineral (Geological type) shows or Gem and Jewelery shows (the former is usually better priced) those are great places to shop. Usually the quality is much better and the prices are too!
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
:-)
I bought my diamond loose from a relative "in the biz", and had it set in platinum--the only way to go. Even at half price, it ran me more than twice the paltry $2k you're quibbling about. Good rings aren't to be had for that sum, and you're right, it's better spent elsewhere if you can't afford to put money into investment quality diamonds. Get her a beautiful ring with a CZ, tell her it's a lab-created diamond, and let her know that what you plan to do is provide for both of your futures with the savings. Could be a honeymoon vacation, could be a downpayment. Whatever. The point is, if you don't have the money to spend, don't.
For people who have the means, but choose not to, you look cheap and your friends will know it. Anyone who has a $60,000+ car, owns a house, or has a good paying job (>$35k) will be seen as having no excuse. I'd be inclined to agree. If you can't show a financial committment to your betrothed, but can afford your toys, there's something wrong. It's not even so much that it's a diamond--heck, buy her a ruby or a new car or a nice pair of earrings--just something as a downpayment on your future.
The #1 thing you need to learn is picking your battles. Compromise is part of living with someone, as is taking stands on things that are so important that you'd rather be without that person than cave. (I've been married 3 wonderful years and never had to make that choice.)
As far as people judging you by diamond size and whatnot, it only matters when you just get engaged. You could just as well "rent" a diamond by adding it to your homeowners insurance policy, then leave it in the hotel on a trip. It pays for itself and you have a good story to tell your friends.
I will also point out that up until 1940, engagement rings were not diamond bearing, but typically other stones.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
Don't get married. It's a completely outdated act and is thoroughly pointless.
If your partner threatens to leave, then clearly they weren't particularly interested in you, anyway.
I'm damned if I'm ever buying someone a ring.
My lady Sarah had a kind of peculiar request for a solid gold ring with the "language of Mordor" written on it, or something like that. She also got me a ring herself; she didn't tell me where she got it. It felt funny when I put it on, but that feeling went away soon. Lately, I have started to become slightly transparent; I have taken to wearing dark robes, and now have a horse named Firethorn. Excuse me, I have to ride off in search of a certain wizard, to help put Sarah on the trail.
[also misbehaves on Kuro5hin as Peahippo]
http://www.bigassdiamonds.com/
will sell you an 800carat flawless CZ for only 249$!!
seriously... just buy it. I agree that the value of a diamond is a grossly inflated and manufactured thing, but the simple fact is no matter what your fiance says she probably wants a diamond. so just buy the damn thing and stop worrying about it. I for one plan to buy my gf a nice shiny diamond that costs more than my last car. So yeah I'd rather put the money into a retirement fund for us, but sometimes you have to do the impractical thing.
If this isn't the epitome of an artificial luxury problem then I don't know what is. Stuff it.
A few posters here have suggested Canadian diamonds as being free of the badness associated with deBeers. I suggest Australian diamonds. The Argyle diamond mine in Western Australia produces some of the best diamonds in the world, sells them cheaper than deBeers and its workers are extremely well paid.
.au govt has intervened on at least one occasion that I know of to prevent deBeers from buying Argyle, as they are somewhat of a threat to their monopoly.
The
I heard wedding dresses only get sold to brides to be too!
I've spent the last year studying in South Africa and all of that is absolutely true. We spent a week on the gold and diamond industry in South Africa in my economics class. Interesting stuff, but really makes me think twice about my jewelery. I'd say I like a pearl as a replacement. But that's just me.
Well, I bought a diamond for my GF 2 years ago and she's not wearing it 'cause the ring is a bit too big and we have to change it....anyway, 3,200$ spent on this.
:)
Diamonds are investment in the idea that price go up a bit with time and doesn't depreciate.
Not sure how much you can pay, but I know they now can make kinda-real diamond out of carbon in a huge pressing machine that mimic the time/pression that makes diamonds.
I saw something on TV 1-2 years ago about this. Maybe you can buy from them now but SORRY...I have no idea the name of the company (if it's a company....maybe it was research) or any link to provide.
Also, why not buy a platinum ring with another stone? Worse case, just put a fake diamond on it..she won't notice....unless she want an appraisal for it
Good luck
There is a 1993 film called "Watch it!" There is a childhood rivalry between these two guys. They are competing for the same gal. The bad one escalates things by asking her to marry him, even though he couldn't care less about her. There is a scene where they go shopping for rings. The jeweler shows them some rings, and says something like, "These two rings look similar, but one is worth only $N, and the other one is worth 5 x $N."
The bad guy asks his fiance to step aside to talk with him. "Of course I am going to get you the expensive one honey. Now I need to negotiate with him. This is guy stuff, so wait here for me, okay?"
Then he goes over the jeweler, and says. I want you to pretend we are negotiating. Do you remember those two rings, that looked practically identical, where one was worth $N and the other 5 x $N? What I want is to buy the cheap ring, for the price you mentioned. And I am going to give you an extra $100 if you pretend, for my fiance, that I sprung for the expensive one.
Seriously, have you talked with her (I'm assuming gender roles, feel free to insert he or him where appropriate). You should make your feelings on the issue known, and elicit her opinion. In my experience, even the most socially concious woman is still a greedy little wench who doesn't care who has to die for her diamonds and wedding dress. But you never know, she might suprise you and say she actually would prever an Emerald Callagh (sp?).
In other news, diamonds DO have resale value, just not the kind of diamonds us phillistines have access too. And lest face it, you may think you know your four c's, but after spending some time in the jewelry business you do not know your four c's unless the only diamonds you are satisfied with cost more than a hatian boatload of gold.
As to alternatives, Canada and Australia are home to some of the finest diamonds on the market, but their production is small scale and limited. They don't have the DeBeers marketing machine going for them, but they truly are nicer. And there's my favorite non-CZ diamond simulant: Diamondique (yes, it even fools thos damn diamond detecters jewelers use sometimes).
Ok, so that is probably a little too alternative for most people. More seriously, if you must have a diamond, and they have crappy resale value, why not go buy a used one? eBay or pawn shop for a used ring with a nice rock, and (if necessary) spend the $$ you saved on the rock on some custom jewelry work for a setting.
Crispin
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
Chief Scientist, WireX Communications, Inc.
Immunix: Security Hardened Linux Distribution
Available for purchase
Pushing "The Star Fraction" off the hof.
Atleast, my girlfriend (yep, even i have one)told me that there was an article in cosmo about a male shortage. The last census said that it wasn't 50% male / 50% female. Not going to hear any complaints from me though. ;)
Why don't you hack together a mini GPS and transmitter, coat it with polished silicon and paste it to a ring. It would look okay, and you'd know where this girl is all the time.
I still have one from the last time I got engaged. Sits around gathering dust and giving me indigestion every time I come across it...
Arias dimonds are suppossed to be blood free. Canadian firm. Almost bought one for the girl before I found out she was shacking up with somone else while I was out of town.
Want to avoid conflict diamonds? Want to know your diamond's true origin? I'm not a materials scientist, but I seem to recall that diamonds can be made from most any carbon rich material, including peanut butter, by pressing and heating the material for an 'extended' ( billions of years) time period. Pressures of 1e6 psi and temperatures on the order of 2000 C are required, measureable diamonds can form in a single hour. http://www.elwoodcorp.com/diam2.htm (the first site I found in a quick google search) To get 1e6 psi just get a 1500 pounds on a 1mm^2 area. The 2000 C can be achieved with resistive heating or maybe an oxy-acetylene torch!? Honestly, I know this is silly, the diamonds would be on the order of microns in diamater, and it would be easy to brown out the neighborhood or burn down the house, but your friends would atleast have a good story to tell at your wedding.
I see the American animal still revels in barbaric materialism and competitive one-upmanship, even when it demeans romantic involvement into a whore-pimp relationship. Maybe next year.
if youre the type of guy who has numerous valid objections to buying a diamond ring, yet you do it anyway because its what SHE wants, maybe youre also the type of guy who will:
:) let her explain to people that SHE thinks a big rock is unnecessary. hopefully she means it.
listen to your wife tell you that you spend too much time on the computer, too much time with the guys, not enough time with her, not enough money on this or that, you dont need a prenuptual agreement, you need more kids than you want, etc.
if your girl is the type of girl who lets it get to her when society/people tell her she is SUPPOSED to get an expensive diamond ring, maybe she will also listen to people tell her:
the ring isnt big enough (it never will be big enough for some people), you need to get her a nicer car, a bigger house, more kids, flowers every other day, and to get everything she can after a divorce.
seriously... if your girl is the type who is affected by that kind of external pressure, you dont want her because the diamond ring will only be the first step of your pussywhipping.
if it was just a token of your love, then a plastic ring would be fine. if the ring MUST BE valuable then it isnt really a token of affection, its a token of how much youll spend on something you dont like just to please her. dont forget that youll have to look at this thing everyday for (hopefully) a loooong time. i think a fair middle ground is just to get a simple gold band. this way she has something to show people that isnt completely ugly or worthless, and she has something to ward off other guys.
if youre both good people and you communicate well with each other, im sure youll find a solution that will make you both happy.
good luck, and congratulations
------ hi mom
If she is into history you may beable to get away with going with an emerald.
Beyond that you are out of luck, the diamond as the wedding ring is to engrained into the american and probably the world's thinking.
Just try to not buy to big of overpriced piece of common gem.
Speaking purely from my own tastes here, I'm of the idea that I WANT to buy my gf a diamond. It's not that it's necessary, I'm sure if I asked her about it she would tell me not to buy her one. I want to do this because its a testement to how much I care about her, as much for me as for her. Admittedly, it's a seemingly pointless gesture for that purpose, but from her perspective, she's getting a traditional proposal, and I'm proving to her and to myself that I'm willing to do sentimental things to show her I love her. She know's that a diamond is useless, really, but she can see firsthand how she makes me feel and the lengths I would go to to prove my feelings. I find something really romantic about the typical "on bended knee" thing and I look forward to doing it for her. The look on her face (that I HOPE to see...) is worth the price of a diamond alone to me. Call me crazy, but I think there are quite a few people out there who feel the same way. Just something about tradition that really makes it seem special.
When I got engaged, my girlfriend didn't want a diamond for the same reasons as yours. So we chose a stone together, and had a jeweller make a ring which we designed ourselves.
The stone ended up being a purple sapphire (only found in Sri Lanka, they say), with a ring design that was completed asymmetrical, in gold. It wasn't cheap, but it looks magnificent, and we have the satisfaction of knowing it is our own creation.
It sounds as though you're in the same boat, and there are heaps of stones out there, some of them cheap and dodgy (a purple sapphire can be mistaken for crappy amethyst until you look closer and realise the darker, deeper colour and sharper cut lines), some of them really beautiful and/or unique. All you have to do is look around and think outside the box, and if anyone rubbishes you or her about no diamond, simply point out how ignorant a consumer they are.
Remember, this sort of exercise should be fun and enjoyable, so good luck!
Dude, your considering buying an engagement ring and one of the things your worried about is resale value?! I say don't bother: your relationship is doomed already.
A life of celibacy!
Karma: Excellent (Mainly due to Bill & Ted's Karma Adventure)
Would she want one if the ones suffering were not some distant Africans (there's always trouble anyway) but cute little cats with big eyes? Very many, very cute, very young, very big eyes.
Second, do you want to get engaged with a girl who insists on diamonds? Who does not understand that YOU don't want to buy such a thing?
Be a man! Stand up for the things you believe in! Would she want to marry a loser with no backbone who does stuff he is opposed to?
Just my thoughts.
She was vastly surprised when she got them, but did say yes :)
I'm in a Unix state of mind.
My wifes engagement ring has gone up in value several times
Don't people read the articles any more?
Where did you receive this "valuation"? Go into a store and ask what they'll give you for it. I *dare* you.
The One ring had no adornment, no diamonds, rubys etc. Oh, about Diamonds not forever, neither is graphite. Protons are unstable, you know. But then, so are human bodies - tough...
I'm in a Unix state of mind.
ahh shuttup....they're both terrorists. One wears a uniform, the other is barefoot.
I have a friend at work that was nearly ready to buy his fiance' a small, crap diamond from Fred Meyers' jewelry dept because he said that she was so down-to-earth and practical. He thought that she would value the symbolic gesture of getting the ring more than the ring itself. My boss and I slapped him around a bit and told him that regardless of whether she was materialistic or not, he should consider shopping for her ring at Tiffanys. Tiffanys engagement rings cost at least 1/3 more, but the return on investment would be substantial. Long story short, we talked him into it and she was blown away. She immediately freaked out when she saw the box. For someone that "wasn't materialistic", she sure knew what she had just received. She immediately called her mother and sister and told them that he had proposed with a tiffanys ring. Then she called every last girlfriend she had. The point here is that this is one of the biggest days in a woman's life and whether or not you see see the importance of a diamond to a woman, *she* will. My friend has since gotten married and still gets continuous satisfaction from knowing his wife is so thrilled about her ring that she still stares proudly at it every day. She gets countless compliments on it and she brags about it all the time. Oh yeah, and it didn't hurt his sex life with her either. ;-)
Diamonds aren't important to a girl? Pffft. yeah right...
I would look at saphirres, emeralds, and such. Those stones can be beautiful engagement rings set in a platinum ring. I have a friend who has one and many of us agree that it is way nicer than our diamonds. Plus, I have to admit that it would be nice to have something that you didn't have to compare to other peoples purely based on size or purity - asthetically the saphirres win. If you put your effort into designing the ring with a jewelry designer the thought is a big plus, too. Just make sure you understand your finances taste in jewelry or simply pick out the stone and suggest that you design it together with a jeweler (make sure to talk to a designer first and set a budget!). Diamonds are nice but a beautiful ring from a thoughtful spouse will beat a diamond any day!
Best of luck!
DeBeers is also the reason that the richest minefields outside of Africa like those in Utah remain untapped or "tourist attractions".
DeBeers is the one that forced GE to only sell their synthetic diamonds for industrial use.
etc
etc
Once more unto the breach dear friends...
Marriage is just a semireligious institution without no real value. Love her? Tell her that, show her that, not necessarily by buying blood-soiled capital goods but in the way you act and treat her.
Remember, marriage != love.
For the inflated price of a high street jeweller, you can afford to go to an artisan jeweller and have something completely custom. Do research on the net, find someone you both like the look of. If you live on the East Coast, you might even want to make the trip to Europe - Italy, Netherlands, parts of Germany and even Birmingham, UK are good places. And you're making a stand for individuality as well as getting something that might actually appreciate in value
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
And I'm still grappling with the ethical issues.
It made her very happy, yes; and it made me feel good to make her that happy.
But was it worth it? I honestly don't know. I don't think I'm ever buying a diamond again, though.
--Matthew
I'm a woman and I have NEVER seen what the big attraction to diamonds was. I've never seen the "diamonds are a girl's best friend" thing as anything more than money-grabbing propaganda by the diamond industry.
;)
You want to impress me? Get me a pretty cubic zirconia and spend the rest of the money on a dual processor system for me to play UT2003 and Doom 3 on when they come out...
- Get tickets to Amsterdam, Antwerp, Tel Aviv or NYC
;)
- Take part in some guided diamond polisher tours
- Let your girlfriend watch how much (and how fast) diamonds get polished there. Diamond polishing is manual labor, but because of the hundreds of diamonds on the polishers desk, it looks more like a miller pouring grain in a mill.
- While watching the polisher, do not get impressed by the tour guides marketing speak. Instead try to talk with your girlfriend about "profit" of diamonds. Dont forget to mention, that you have visited only one or two polishers and there are hundreds and more in town. Let her think about the "uniqeness" of a diamond....
- If your girlfriend still wants one, enjoy the rest of the trip and avoid to buy it from the "guided-tour-polishers". They rip you off
The only way to tell the difference is that moissanite is double refracting, vs single for diamond.
If you have difficulty buying it contact me and I can get you some. It's not sold directly to the public (to try to keep the cost up :), but I can get it. Try the internet too of course.
And BTW if you never tell her it's not diamond she'll never know the difference - even a jewler would have a hard time telling. Course you don't want to lie to your wife..... :)
Here's a little chart.
The numbers are: moissanite, diamond, ruby, sapphire, emerald
Refractive Index: 2.65-2.69, 2.24, 1.77, 1.77, 1.58
Fire: 0.104, 0.044, 0.018, 0.018, 0.014
Lustre%: 20.4, 17.2, 7.4, 7.4, 4.8
Mohs Hardness: 9.25, 10, 9, 9, 7.5
As you can see moissanite wins in everything except hardness. And moissanite is actually tougher then diamond. (Hard is scratching, tought is breaking.)
-Ariel
In Brasil, diamonds are considered extremely over and kitsch in anything but night jewellery, the kind used at big-time, no-more-than-two-at-a-year parties. No one would ever use them at a simple dinner, or graduation party. Only at night marriages, official receptions and the such.
For engagement and marriage rings, simple gold is more elegant, at most a combination of different colours of gold mine is a three-rings entwined imitation of classical Cartier design, each ring of a colour: white, yellow and red gold. At most people will use wrought gold: with forms of entwined elephants, or with braille codes, or whatever. But still the most elegant is simple, plain gold.
Just think if she would like to be more elegant than her kitsch friends dumped by ads but make sure she get the idea.
About ethics, just remember that bad as mining is, having no job is far worse.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Why would anybody ask for this kind of advice from /.???? As a geologist/gemologist/college dropout/ex-gem trader, I have to say Diamonds are not "worthless pieces of carbon." They are quite valuable as Russian mafia in 'limited partnership with DeBeers' keeps it that way. After all, it is in their very best interests.
Many large investment portfolios contain investment-quality diamonds (>1ct, D-E color, flawless to VVS1), and the Prices of Diamonds have risen steadily over the last 20 years except for a brief period during the 1980s.
People are used to the retail on general jewellery being 300% of cost. The diamond business is cut throat and although your setting will probably be market up that much (or 500%+ if purchasing from Tiffany, etc), your diamond is likely to be marked up only 20%.
Is the guy who spent $300 paying 20% over. Not likely, he's probably paying much more and his diamond was absolutely cut by child labor. They have better eyesight and less skill, which puts them in the position of routinely cutting very low quality, small stones. Is the guy who spends $3000 on a diamond getting more for his money? Yes, a stone that was likely cut by an adult in a civilized country. $30,000 stone? Cut by a master cutter in a major diamond center such as Antwerp, Israel, or the US.
Someone said he bought a sapphire as an engagement ring, that is a great idea; and one that is increasingly popular in Europe. However quality sapphires can approach diamond prices easily. Dark blue, opaque sapphires are not relatively that rare. Princess Diana actually had a sapphire engagment ring.
And for Jewellers not buying back their merchandise. I know for a fact that Lenoir Jewellers 601-924-7755 (web site sucks) will buy back any diamond it sells to you for up to one year after purchase for the same amount you purchased it for. -Something that was handy during the first marriage.
If you can find a local rock club many times they have classes that you are able to learn the art of faceting. Pick out a rough stone and cut one yourself your wife will be estatic that you perform this "Labour of love" and didnt just go and buy one.
I am an amuater stone cutter and when my wife and i bought a large helidor stone for 55 dollars for the purpose of cutting a wedding type ring we couldnt hope the results where as great as they where. Only problem is she never wears the ring as she values it more than anything else she owns. When the actual value is about $400.
Hi,
we (my wife and me) had no special engagement rings.
German 'tradition' in that matter is to buy the weddng rings but to wear them on the left hand, and put them on the right hand after the wedding.
Both partners usually have the same ring (style-wise) and admit it, a diamond does look strange with a man...
we have rings made from platinum and gold, platinum on the outside and gold on the inside.
bye,
[L]
I was once about to study fashion design, so you might want to consider what I have to say: :-) ) and I actually *like* to wear mine, allthough I have to take it of when I type (which I do a lot).
Scimpy Diamond rings are silly and pointless. In fact, making a diamond *ring* that makes sense is very difficult, because they tend to get clutsy and big, makeing even a woman look like a pimp wearing it. Eihter you want the shine of rock (diamonds are unique in the way they gather and reflect light - that's what makes them special and why they look cool when set up the right way) - then you need a certain amount for them to take effect. Check out the stuff from Bvlgary to see what I mean.
To kinda answer your question:
My LAP (Lebens Abschnitts Partner - "life period partner") and I (we've been together 8 years and have a 4 year old daughter) got a fitting Set of Stainless Steel rings for 100$ a piece. In platinum they would cost 1200$ a piece and look *exactly* the same. They look good, fit to *everything* I could wear (or not wear
We took the remaining 2200$ and went on a vacation we'll have sweet memories about for the rest of our life. No, a scimpy zero-effect diamond pseudo-ring is not worth it. It's even pointless if you're serious about jewelery.
If there's anything that's mindless luxury it's 'rare material' jewelery. If you can't buy it without even noticing the expense, kinda like Bill Gates or Malcom Forbes wouldn't notice, then see if you can make the idea of spending the diamond ring money for something of more value attractive to her. Don't get my wrong:
If I where rich, I'd buy jewlery for my wife. The right way. Unfortunately, the stuff that actually looks good and moves away from pointless, crappy designed, "that little spec is a real diamond" to "wow, look at that - what a beautyfull necklace" comes from people like Bvlgary and Co. and costs 200K and above. If your wife doesn't look even more sexy with a piece of jewelery on her, chances are it is not the right jewelery for her or it's bad jewelery. The later is mostly the case. Keep that in mind when looking at the stuff.
Good luck macking her happy.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
diamonds discoverred in canadian frozen volcanic flues... massive tonnage of diamonds means price should have COLLAPSED to 1/10 th the price by now....
but people seem to not know about the canadian discoverries this year
I agree: a lot more people are made a lot more miserable by the diamond trade than by C++. The latter is a subtle, merciful killer; it eschews violence. Freshmen simply lose the will to live about four weeks into CS101, when they learn the true meaning of inheritance and friendship: "you aren't going to get a lot of money from your parents, but you will probably get the same self-destructive behavior they had, which will probably be triggered by someone covering his ass after someone you thought was your friend tripped you up by playing with your member".
["Only friends can play with your member(s)" heard from Andy Kinley at RHIT, IIRC. Hi, Andy!]
This never would have occured to me, why would getting a ring off be an E.R. necessity?
Just buy the diamond
....or go buy a ticket to Las Vegas. Find a local Hotel/Casino. Then hire a whore or better yet 3 whores and have a head sucking contest with a $500 reward for the best blow. Then go back home and count the thousands of dollars saved from the price of the ring.
http://saveie6.com/
I don't think it matters much how old a tradition is. Truth is I think marriage is fluff as well and serves only to show others how truly commited you are in your relationship. The ring serves the same purpose. It isn't between you and your wife but for others to see that you and her are serious. If you want ethical diamonds you can try buying canadian diamonds. I did a search on this a while back. They are not dug out in Sierra Leone or anything like that and the miners are paid a decent salary for digging as well. http://www.siriusdiamonds.com/home.htm
Works well for my parents. And my girlfriend's parents. And the parents of my best friends.
,social and financial terms, when you'll be able to screen the child and transplant foreign, "better" genetic material to the offsprings ?
...
What worked well for them may very probably NOT work well for us:
you're ignoring a major factor here: the pill.
I believe the pill is the major reason for the sexual revolutions and backlashes of the second half of last century. Seperating procreation from sex was a major destabilizer for monogamy (that, and the the women joining the work-force, thus giving them options they didn't have before).
My point is: the human race is still in the after-effects of the seperation of sex from procreation, and in this respect, we ARE different from our parents.
Our descendants may go even further down this road: even today you see lesbian couples using genetic material from sperm-banks, what will the notion of marriage mean, in genetic
I guess they'll live in ingteresting times
Working for necessity's mother.
Still a diamond granted - but not a new one.
:-). I must admit that this wasn't for idealogical reasons - she just preferred it, but at least at was kind of 'recycled' (something which we both believe in).
My girlfriend chose a victorian antique ring (cost slightly less too
Poor people do more kids than rich one to be sure that at least one rich adulthood alive. So there is a selection process with poor people, which is not there with rich people (kids being coveted and protected against the rest of the world).
So in short the materialistic woman is bound to have less offspring adapted to the world, and they will need more "help" [$dough$] than the poor's offspring which will work hard and will have success on their own.
The above is said in only half sarcastic way, because I observed it time and time again with rich brat unable to survive with papa & mama.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I dunno... I suspect anyone who would suggest otherwise is simply far too lucky.
I's like to see her firend's faces while they gaze upon Matrix: Reloaded on her new engagment Widescreen HDTV.
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
I've been married 3 wonderful years and never had to make that choice.
She hasn't let you make any decisions yet?
If the woman wants a diamond, get the woman a diamond. Never, ever, trick yourself into beliving her if she says she does not want one. You know if she wants one or not. And if you can't tell, I'll tell you. She wants one. Do her, and yourself a favor. Avoid years of hidden resentment. Just get the woman a diamond. -Heath
A friend's mother is a jeweller and I asked whether she'd make a ring to a rough design I'd drawn out (okay, copied & customised a little bit): just a plain gold band with a stone set in a particular way. It came out perfectly and to the right size, because my girlfriend has child-sized fingers and no off-the-shelf design would have fitted without some alteration. You can spend just as much money commissioning a ring, leave off the diamond, and your girlfriend knows she has something that was made just for her rather than hurriedly picked off a shelf in exchange for so many months' salary. A few people have mentioned girlfriends comparing diamond sizes, feelings of inadequacy, bitchiness etc.-- well custom-made trumps expensive any day, which is good because I was a poor student at the time :-)
Matthew @ Bytemark Hosting
A Slashdot reader with a girlfriend? WHAT!? Is that even possible!? I thought there was something in the Slashdot terms of services, that if you got a girlfriend, you had to stop accessing the site!?
You murderer!
OH, THE BEANMANITY!
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I once heard of some guy, he bought a pair of, if i remember correctly, titanium rings which were still tarnished. He gave one to his girlfriend when they were getting engaged.
When they would become married, he'd have a jeweller polish the two rings so they could shine on forever.
I thought this is a really nice idea. Maybe this works with other metals, too.
You cannot see the print, only feel them when you wear the ring (like they feel each others hands).
The rings are made of some kind of special alloy (titanium or something, I forgot which), they are light and look rather simple but very pretty.
Of course this guy is an engineer, as you may have guessed. :-)
Idempotent operation: Like MS software, wether you run it once or often, that doesn't make it any better.
Seriously.
This is where the retailers go to buy the goods. They bid 50% of what they're going to sell it for in the shop. So if you bid 60%, you'll pay a little more than they would, but a lot less than what you'd pay in a store. Means investigating prices, of course. If you see a gem you like, but the setting's crap, you can always get it reset. However, some of those old settings are exquisite. Esp. stuff from the Naughties to 1920's. And they did use diamonds before 1938, but the emphasis was on the artistry.
[Nitpick mode on]
:-)
Titanium actually isn't an alloy. It's a chemical element and a pure metal in it's own right.
[Nitpick mode off]
Sorry, couldn't resist. I don't want you go discriminating on such a fine metal, y'know?
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The long term (ie 50 years and up) value of diamonds is near to zero. It's just carbon, give or take some manfacturing processes. In the long term, once some basic nanotech (not the way-out stuff, just better molecular assembly processes) is sorted out, there is no reason why a kilo block of diaomond should cost more than say, ten times the cost of a kilo block of plastic.
Yes, you can tell manufactured diaomonds from those made 'naturallly' in volcanos by counting the rings or something. But when people start throwing manufactured diaomond stuff out with thier daily trash, the image of 'natural' diamond is sure to take a knock. There is no real, material difference between the two. As ever with diamonds, it's about marketing.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
This whole article just doesn't show genuine love to me.
This should be about being able to ask your girlfriend square
in the eye that you want to spend your life with her - not
looking at the ring thinking "I found that somewhere cheap".
Whether or not you spend x pounds/dollars/euros on a ring is
irrelevant, as is whether it has a diamond, but whether it was
bought "on the cheap" says something. The whole idea of considering
resale value when buying an engagement ring suggests a lack of
committment to the process.
THE GIRLS CARE NOTHING FOR DIAMONDS, ALL THEY MIND IS THE PRICE IT COSTED YOU
That's not cynical or anything like that. She likes to know that she is important to you, and you will expend a lot of money for her. As a matter of fact, an study on gifts to girls found that the presents they most liked were small-format very-expensive laptops. Really. No kidding. Forget diamonds. Kick one up the ass to the DeBeers cartel. Don't play along.
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
...an antique ring? Charm, uniqueness; and while its creation may or may not have involved suffering, you will not in any way be involved in causing or sponsoring that suffering.
I am just waiting 'til my mum dies and I can use hers. (I only have sisters :-)
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
These are not the people you should be asking for advice on your girlfriend. These are geeks. Most of them don't even have girlfriends.
Trolling aside, if you think your girlfriend would want a diamond, you would be a fool to substitute something else. She may suggest something else is ok, but that is a lie. She really wants the diamond and she will resent the fact that you didn't get her one.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Unfortunately, de Beers controls the market to such an extent that it can be tricky finding a jeweller willing to order and set a synthetic diamond for you...
On the other hand, if it's supposed to be a surprise, why not buy her a cubic zirconia instead of a diamond. Keeps its value (er, 'coz it doesn't have much to start with!), and I bet most people can't tell the difference without looking closely (when was the last time you examined someone-elses engagement ring?) :) Buy her a car with the difference, and she'll join in the subterfuge quite happily.
The jeweller doesn't have to - often the piece appreciates. I know someone whose engagement ring cost in the region of GBP 2500 in 1985; it's now worth about GBP 8000 (sold, I guess, second-hand). Of course, it's her engagement ring - she's not going to sell it.
The downside of this is that she lost the central stone out of the ring a fortnight ago (there are three stones, one large and two small). Fortunately, the insurance will replace it with one of an equivalent colour, quality, etc. The thing that amazes me is that this isn't even the first time the stone has dropped out! (In other words, the stone she just lost is not the one that was originally on the ring either!).
Look north of the border for blood free diamonds:
e /t rmineral/tr3/tr3.html
http://www.nature.ca/discover/treasures/trsite_
Not only are they blood free but it turns out that the Inuit on whose land they are found make excellent diamond cutters. A very large percentage of diamonds mined, cut and polished in Canada are 000 cuts.
The basis of the following ideas is how to make the engagement ring a personal, sentimental item without buying a diamond:
:^>
1) Set _two_ stones in the ring. Her birthstone, your birthstone. Of course, diamond is birthstone for April (or so I found when I checked the web, and we all know how reliable that is), but at least then the diamond has a reason to be there.
2) Get a _skilled_ craftsperson to make a distinctive ring. Metal by itself can be beautiful if used artistically.
3) Use an heirloom, if available. (If you wouldn't trust her with a heirloom, why are you marrying her?) It may have a diamond in it, but at least you're not buying a new one.
4) Elope, quickly
I forgot to add to point (4) that the advantage of a quick courtship and elopement means you might be able to skip the engagement ring altogether...which sort of defeats the spirit of the first 3 items, but I reckoned a bit of whimsy is its own reward.
Yes, you could go with diamonds and spend the 'traditional' two paychecks on it. Or you could pick another stone and get that. Sapphires, pearls, tourmaline, all good. Onyx is ok, but the stone is very fragile and not a particularly good deal for rings. What's her birthstone? Talk to a jeweler about what that stone looks like, costs, etc.
Also take into account what your girlfriend does during the day. If she works in a job in which she has a good chance of smacking her hand into something (retail), then a large stone might not be worth it since she might end up damaging the stone (same goes for wedding rings btw).
Also, think about the band. Yellow gold doesn't look great on everyone. White gold or platinum might look better (platinum is way more expensive though). Also think of the carats. Most jewelers won't work with more than 18 or 20 carat gold (at least in the US) and the color gets worse the lower you go. That all makes a difference (in both price and appreciation).
Other than diamonds, what stones does your girlfriend like? Look at a list of birthstones for a start. Emerald, Amethyst, Garnet, Ruby, Sapphire, Tourmaline, Onyx, etc. All nice stones.
Moral: Diamonds may be nice, but diamonds are pushed so hard, that people forget about the other stones and the fact that they make great pieces of jewelry as well as nice things to hand down to your children.
Even if it is a small one. She will understand if you have to get her a smaller one, but she will not understand if you take a stance against DeBeers and the whole diamond trade deal. Trust me, women have no interest (which is not the same as no clue) on the DeBeers cartel or in the life condition of the mining children.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
Is that you Cameron? I know you have shares in that Canadian diamond mining company :-)
De-Beers and co are trying to aim for trademarks to identify "real" diamonds (i.e. dug out of the dirt). But I don't think it will really play in the long run.
Try asking if she would prefer an expensive honeymoon instead. That will also be a good reply to obnoxious women shoving huge rocks under her nose and saying "where's yours then?". You/she can just say "we decided to spend the money on a 5 star hotel in [Distant place]" and then gush about how wonderful it all was. Going to interesting places beats shiny rocks every time.
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
Some girls will only marry you for a diamond ring;
Some expect fast cars;
Some expect expensive vacations;
Some expect a house;
And some want you to get a visa.
And you know what? Screw them all.
A woman who dates me can expect my love, care, loyality, dedication, and so on. But she can not expect anything of the above. I share what I have, I give when I can, but I do so because I feel like doing it and not because if it's expected of me. I dislike birthdays and christmas for the same reason. It's "mandatory" to get the person a gift. I hate that.
How did this get moderated as flamebait (3 times!)? Not only is it not even close to flamebait, it's the most reasonable thing I've seen in this entire discussion.
I would buy diamonds if:
a) they where the cheaper industrial products that the russians seam to exceel in doing;
b) would need them for something;
c) the price fits the marchandise (which in the case of natural diamonds doesn't, because its a piece of carbon too expensive for its worth);
Cheers...
Tell your girlfriend that as she loves music, and you know that vinyl is coming back in to fashion, you've bought her a new *diamond stylus* for her turntable.
Cheap, cheap, cheap!!!
I have been married 20 years. At the time we got engaged, we bought a diamond engagement ring (joint decision, split the cost) but even so we could only afford a small diamond. But it was a symbolic thing, and my wife wore it and never took it off unless she absolutely had to.
Then around five years ago the damn stone fell out and was lost. We discussed what to do about it. We could now afford a much larger real diamond, so that was an option. But reviewing the prices and comparing them with some of the substitutes now available, there really was no contest: we agreed that diamonds were overpriced and the replacement would be cubic zirconium.
Since then I've seen and would consider a moissanite jewel, but probably would stick with the CZ choice. While in some gem-geeky respects moissanite claims to be superior to diamond, there seems to be little cost saving - rather it is promoted as something that costs pretty much the same as diamond but is "better".
The real challenge I had was to find a CZ ring in which the stone was not grossly and vulgarly oversized, and where the ring itself was made from something better than "cheap" 9ct gold. I eventually bought an elegant 18K gold ring with a solitaire CZ stone of around 1 carat size. It cost a fraction (like 10%) of what the same-sized real diamond ring would have cost, and to pretty much everyone's casual glance it looks like a decent-sized diamond.
My wife loves it, shows it off, and freely admits it isn't a diamond. I don't know if this says anything about the nature or quality of our relationship, or the people we now are versus what we once were -- you can decide.
Break&Enter:Smoking::Rape/Pillage:Copying
Common Law Torts vs. Administrative law.
Go find out the difference.
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
Sentiment is what your future wife wants. Find a piece of Titanium, borrow a lathe and craft your own ring. You can then give her somthing that is truly unique, and has taken real time and real effort. For years to come she would apreciate it.
Regardless of the material. Buy her something unique. Find a local jewellery maker. Spend your money on the labour of the ring. Support the local maker/designer. Get your girl something special.
With luck and your knowledge of your lady it will truly be a love token.
And, good luck for the future!!!
I refused to buy the engagement ring (so no diamonds at all), as I refused to spend such a large amount of cash on something with such a short lifespan - sure, she'll wear it after we're married but she won't actually be 'engaged' anymore will she?
I did however let her claw back her status amongst her peer group by allowing her to rape my finances on the wedding band which she got to pick herself.
I get the occasional snide comment from her/friends but overall I'm happy with the outcome and choices made.
All together now: "We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control" (Pink Floyd - Another Brick In The Wall)
Does anyone else think that this is "advertising" going too far?
Ali
Ph33r m3!!!
Weird that love is measured in monetary terms on how much you just wasted on a thing. Why not do something different? Myself got plain, no ecoration, no inscription, white-gold rings for us when me and my wife married (after 10 years). Or perhaps a ring in stainless steel? Its only a symbol. what matters is if you love each other or not. Yes. I could afford to get my wife a $100.000 ring if my life depended on it, but WHY? WHY waste perfectly good mone on an object that has no meaning neither any reasonable use?
My wife works in the medical field, and wears rubber gloves all day. A big honking diamond would actually be a health risk, as it would pierce the glove constantly. Instead of getting an engagement ring she'd never wear, I purchased a wedding band w/ a row of diamonds in it, and used that. Now she gets to wear her diamonds every day, and I didn't waste 3-months mortgage on her jewlery box!
I saw someting on 60 minutes (or something) about this tribe in South Africa that goes around hacking the arms off the diamond mine workers. The diamond companies do little to protect their workers.
Horrible business, I want no part of it.
Have you thought about getting a ring with both of your birthstones in it.
I say punt and let your defense win the game.
and put it in a box after the first time she scratches them during bath or changing time.
My wife understood the BS behind diamonds 10 years ago. Sure I got her 1/2 carret heart shaped but as long as it looked good with the nake eye it was good enough. No need to examine it under an electron microscope for impurities.
I only wish I listened to her and got a cubic z. She always said that would have been good enough.
It was my stupidity or brainwashing that made me get a diamond.
Well we ended up with with two things that are worth more than all the diamonds in the world...our daughter and son. Now they are a real treasure!
Most sources say, and I have no reason to doubt them, that the value of diamonds is strictly controlled by DeBeers. That's why buying prices remain high, and there is no resale value. On the other hand, there are some gem alternatives. Rubys, emeralds, and saphires are all more rare that diamonds, are not controlled by DeBeers, and as a result, have higher resale value. Another alternative is pearls. They are not as rare, but they are also not as "permanent" (pearls will degrade after a number of years - as do many relationships). Another alternative is a good quality Australian fire opal - quite spectacular.
Mmmmm... Instant Karma! Now with Tantric Marshmallows!
BAZ
Me and my wife's wedding rings have synthetic saphires in them.
Her's was 6mm across, is absolutely crystal clear *G*, a deep dark blue, and looks awesome. It only ran us about $300 too, so that's not that bad a deal.
We spent the rest of the money on our rings on custom gold and platinum rings from a local jewelsmith.
So no, I don't think that diamonds are worth the effort.
I was very lucky. My girlfriend (now my wife) liked garnets more than diamonds and told me so.
No.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
I had the same struggles not long ago, and can share with you my plan.
Like any good geek I decided the best way to do it is to use an online diamond wholesaler. I recommend www.bluenile.com. Use them to determine the diamond(s) you want, then order them (no sales tax).
This should get you the diamonds for a deal, take them to a local jeweler and order an appraisal, it should be about $50 dollars or so. If they don't at least appraise to what you paid for them return them to BlueNile.com. They have an exceptional return policy.
Once your done appraising them, offer the work to the same local jeweler. Most of the time you'll be surprised with the excellent work and fair price to assemble the ring.
Upon completion, and BEFORE you deliver the ring. I recommend having the Jeweler give you a certified appraisal of the ring. Remember, the ring is most likely worth more than the sum of it's parts.
Take this appraisal to your insurer and ask about a floater policy for this jeweler. Trust me, don't wait until after you give it to her, you'll sweat bullets waiting for the insurance coverage.
Now, how did I do with this same plan. I got a $4,500 ring for less than half that.
Good Luck!
If you get confused on your C's, call the BlueNile.com guys/girls, they will not try to oversell you, atleast they didn't try with me.
Harmonics
Sure, it sounds trite, but just listen for a moment.
;)
When it was My turn at the plate, my mother dug out her jewlery box, and, lo-and-behold, produced my Grandmother's engagement ring! It had a 1/4 ct full cut, blue-clear, with no less than 6 1/2 cut 1/8th ct diamonds with it.
Suffice it to say, my wife was Well-Pleased with a diamond that had been in the family for the better part of a century.
Cost to me: $300 for a new ring set (including the wedding bands)
Moral to this story: Hit up the Parents/Grandparents for one! You just might have some good rocks out there! (Just don't dig up any releative out of the dirt
Don't you realize that courting is all about brain-washing, er uh, educatiing your soon to be mate? I'm proud to report I easily turned my girlfriend into a Right-wing Capitalist conservative before I even thought of marrying her. We're now happily married with 3 kids for 6 years.
This really isn't flamebait.
I went and bought her a Saphire ring for $169, and that's it. In addition I bought her a beautiful $900 Raymond Weil watch, and a $200 framed print that to this day hangs in our dining room.
We got wedding bands, but I lost mine within 6 months and she lost hers in 2 years. I've been going ringless for all these years, even at a 100k+ salary.
Once you get the little kids running around, your wife will realize there are so many more important things to spend money on, perhaps, private schools, country club memberships, automobiles. We really never even talk about the subject of rings.
And a hefty gold ring to put it on, with gold from Anglo-American. Then the gold price goes up, the JSE share prices go up, and we're all happy. Also, none of De Beers diamonds come from 'conflict' areas - most still come from South Africa, and a lot come from Botswana. That's why they burn the DB logo onto it, to identify them. And the miners here are not oppressed - maby the living conditions aren't so good, but at least they have a job. Most of the mining is automatic, with the silt being dredged up and sorted by machine using xrays and image processing. And I woudn't buy Canadian diamonds with polar bears on them - they are probably wiping out the bears habitat when they mine them.
Havng been led to the truth about DeBeers years ago I was naturally apprehensive when it came time to consider what the plan would be for popping the question to my now wife. However, I was in a very fortunate situation; a great grandmother had left a pair of diamond earrings to both my brother and myself. Since my ear-ware leans more towards surgical stainless steel (nyuk...nyuk) than precious stones it kind of made sense; have the stone in the earrling put it a setting for a ring. Since the stone was fairly large it didn't look out of place. It was also a much older stone, well before DeBeers had ratcheted up their flagrant human rights abuses so I felt like I wasn't feeding into the industry. It also meant alot to my wife because it was a family heirloom; she got a diamond, but it was also symbolic of the rich family history she was becoming part of by saying "yes" as well (and she did say "yes"....almost before I had the chance to drop to the knee and everything)..
A few years ago, when everything wasn't made of titanium, my friend had a set of titanium engagement rings made from titanium pipe stock by his uncle (who worked from a defense contractor).
The only problem was the only way he knew to prove to anyone it was titanium was to put it in a vice at work and let someone crank on it.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
They are extremely abundant and have no intrinsic value, although they can be quite useful. They are only expensive because criminals like De Beers artificially control the supply. Worse these companies actively promote war in Africa to help them exploit the diamonds - they are currently involved in a scam where they have been underpaying Namibia for its diamonds and are now threatening the Namibian government if they try to ascertain what others besides De Beers would pay.
And anyone who has ever tried to resell a wedding ring will tell you that they are completely worthless - you might just as well have handed your money over to the jeweller in exchange for a piece of granite.
I gave my girlfriend now fiance a kitten as an engagement present. And she named the cat "Engagement". We travel alot and take the cat with us overseas. Now from what I can figure out by the time that this cat does eventually die, I'll have spent much more money that on any diamond. Plus the cats more fun than a rock.
Point 1: Diamonds are expensive.
Point 2: Diamond sources are shady.
Why don't you buy a second-hand diamond? The money goes to someone local, the price is ridiculously low because of the resale value, and no extra money goes to people of dubious repute.
Or am I missing the (romantic) point?
Listen, everybody knows that Diamonds are made when coal (carbon) is compressed under great pressure for very long times. BUT what most people ignore is that when you remove the pressure ( by, say, digging it out of the ground) it turns right back to coal!
No kidding.
Of course it takes the same ammount of time ( hundreds of lifetimes) but every diamond you have ever seen is turning to coal right before your very eyes.
Is THAT the symbol you want to choose for the love of your life?
___ I don't respond to Anonymous Cowards, and I Never Mod them UP.
It doesn't get away from the fact that she will be wearing a diamond, but does prevent any more money flowing into that particular industry.
Get an heirloom. Ask your folks to see if there are any old diamonds from Great Grandma/pa Great Uncle [whatever] that are in a safe deposit box somewhere. That's what I did. My wife has a real nice 1/2 carat diamond that was my grandfather's. Not the greatest diamond [tiny little chunk of carbon in the middle], but has sentimental value, and I only had to pay for the setting/ring, not the rock.
Pawn shops would offer the same moral out, but you'd plunk down a little more cash.
A friend of mine looked in to them. All the dealers said the same thing: "best diamonds we have, but we don't sell much because of their price".
Polar Bear Diamonds
Nat
well, if your fiancee is not dead-set on a diamond, I think there are numerous things you can get her as an engagement gift that are far wiser... Get her a nice simple gold or silver ring (basically as a token, so to speak) and then do something smarter with the diamond money.. Put the money in a CD or a savings account, and save it for the down payment on a house! For Crissakes... our whole culture has fallen prey to that stupid advertising campaign and for some reason many women feel compelled to have a huge rock on their finger. I think it would be far wiser to be able to buy your first house together without having to beg your parents to co-sign a loan, or have your in-laws lend you the down payment.... Shit, even investment art would be a better (and more morally clean, unless you buy some stolen piece) than a diamond. Don't buy into that crap.
Meh.
I bought my wife's diamond used.
It was a drizzily afternoon in Nottingham UK.
She was visiting me for the week. We were in an antique jewlery shop, and I saw a ring that was VERY cool looking.
Asked the shop keep how much ($500 quid/about $750 US) and if he could have it sized.
The ring was over 130 years old, had a unique setting (since they were all hand made)called a king's setting or something or other. And the diamond itself was NOT machine cut.
That means it had deeper facits (more sparkle) and all that was done by a victorian man with a small wooden chisle and hammer.
MUCH cooler than the stamped out , over priced, artificially demanded rings now adays.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
from dictionary.com token Pronunciation Key (tkn) n. Something serving as an indication, proof, or expression of something else; a sign The dollar value is meaningless - it is what it represents that gives its value.
If you want to get her an engagement ring but your primary concern is the source of the stones, you have several options:
Option 1: Buy a ring from an estate jeweler, something with an "old European cut". This cut fell out of favor around World War I, so there is no profit for anyone but the jeweler. OEC diamonds are also less expensive than similarly-sized modern stones.
Option 2: Buy a Canadian diamond.
Option 3: Get her the colored stone (emerald, etc.) of her choice.
We've been able to produce Jewel grade diamonds in a lab for more then 40 years. Sure, it does cost more, but at least it isn't a 'blood' diamond.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Here in Canada, we have our own high quality diamond mines. There are no conflict diamonds coming out of these mines. Every daimond is laser engraved with a polar bear on it, very small and out of the way. I can't remember what companies sell it, but if you drop by any jewelers here and ask for them, you will be told the spiel of where they came from and all. The diamonds are among the highest quality, and can free your concious (as well as your wallet) when buying a ring. Americans wil like the exchange rate too.
I've been married for almost two years now (to a guy I met through userfriendly's peer2peer, natch) and woo, did we wrestle with this one.
.34 carat diamond on it, the same width as my wedding band, and now I can wear them both without one spinning wildly around my finger.
I technically have two engagement rings. The first is silver and moonstone, absolutely gorgeous, purchased at a ren faire the day he proposed. I wore this for almost a year.
We looked at many, many sets of wedding bands to match that ring, and guess what? Wedding bands now are horrendously ugly, for the most part. We eventually went with plain, white gold bands for us both--we are both professional geeks who do some hands-on, and no one wants to scratch up a fancy wedding band. The problem then became, how do we get my engagement ring to go with it? I have very small fingers, and that ring would have had to have been welded to my wedding band for them both to stay on without twisting around because the ring was so skinny. Eventually we gave in and purchased a plain gold band with a
The other part of this was his parents. They are from a rural town in Texas and did not take our engagement seriously without a diamond. They are also the reason why we had a fairly traditional wedding with tons of people we didn't know. If we had it to do over again.....we would have custom designed wedding bands. I still love my original engagement ring and wear it often.
Don't cry over spilt milk. It just makes it salty for the cat.
i have always questioned 'diamonds'. after all it's only an example of a fantastic marketing campaign by DeBeers. i always thought that i was kinda alone in thinking that. and that diamonds after all had some value. relieved to see other people skipping (or trying to at least) on the 'marriage tax' to DeBeers. i had to buy my now wife a diamond ring only because of my parents who thought it would be socially unaccetable to not have one. but my wife doesn't wear rings. she wears one with her birthstone and is very cool with me not wearing anything. her reason -- if the marriage is held together only by the ring that's a pretty sad pathetic marriage. i've been 'surprising' her with books instead. (she's really into genetics.)
wow. I got to this discussion with lots of comments already, so I'll try and be brief with my $.02 (mexican, but hey!)
When my girlfriend and I got engaged, we looked and discussed possibilites of stone, the 4c's, diamonds, cz, etc. We ended up avoiding the "fake diamond" market, simply because of the bad rep it gets.
We did get a created sapphire solitaire, set on a knife-edge white gold band, which has incredible color and fire (I can't believe how many times the jewelry store people have gawked at her ring when we stop by to find "matching" earrings... honestly, they don't have anything that comes even close to comparing with her stone on the store...
At any rate, we paid about $400 for the engagement ring and matching wedding bands from a small jewler in Indianapolis, and she couldn't be happier. The stone matches her eyes, and gets nothing but compliments from friends/family/strangers. And, to be honest, $400 is probably the most I could afford (broke college student blah blah blah). I can't even begin to describe what bad quality clear^H^H^Hnasty yellow carbon composite matter we could have afforded with that...
My point? Discuss with her your options and get something you both like! No matter what you get, you'll both be happier in the end.
best of luck!
It's just a rock. Give her a pebble. It's all the same. If she wants to marry you because of the baubles you can collect and provide her I suggest you tell her to piss off immediately. Or perhaps she can save up her money and get her own fucking shiny rock.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
1. Does SHE want a diamond?
2. Does she want an EXPENSIVE diamond?
First, if she wants an diamond, get her one.
Second, if she wants an EXPENSIVE diamond, get a new girlfriend, because she's just too materialistic.
I paid the same amount for the ring, (Don't be fooled, a REAL engagement ring, is just the half of the wedding ring that has the diamonds on it) as I paid for the honeymoon. Personally, I think that's a good mix.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Finally a thread that made me comment (even worse, made me read the comments).
I knew this was marketing BS right from the start. What if I told you that in order to prove your love to your wife you needed to spend two months salary on my consulting services? Would seem a little self-serving, huh? And everyone thinks it's a tradition when in reality this 'tradition' is less than 100 years old. Similar social marketing schemes today have convinced everyone they 'need' a new car (finance it of course), and that borrowing money up to their necks is a good way to live.
When we got engaged, I bought my wife a used car instead to replace the jalopy she drove. And we bought our wedding rings very cheap and used at an estate store.
A marriage is made by two loving adults, not by rings or rocks or anything else.
The only ring I'd pay 2 months salary for is the one Bilbo found...
If you're going to buy a diamond for your SO, here's a trick I learned when I bought my (now) wife's engagement ring: Buy a smaller diamond, and put 2 darker colored stones around it in a jacket (rubies worked well for me, but you could use anything that's darker in color than the diamond). I had 2 marquise-cut rubies put in a jcaket around the diamond (1/3-1/2ct), and it makes the diamond look much bigger because of the contract between the stones.
Your SO will think they are getting a larger stone, and you wont have to break you wallet.
-Ed
docbrown.net
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Ed Wedig
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Am I the only one who read this as BUY HER first? Because that's pretty much what you are talking about.
Gosh, if my girlfriend wanted a nigger slave for proposition, I'd not give her one out of principle. If she insists upon a diamond and it's against your principles, ask yourself what your principles mean to you.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
Congratulations to you both!
:-) Not that I'm suggesting you propose online (unless you're lucky enough to be marrying a fellow geek), our circumstances where very unique - she was in Florida, I was in England at the time.
I got engaged in the #quake2 channel on Gameslink, so I didn't need to buy a Diamond Ring at the time...
My Mother has a ruby on her engagement ring that she would never trade for anything else. I know plenty of women who have different stones on their engagement rings. I suggest you talk it over with your girlfriend and see what she wants. Now, if you she decides she really wants a diamond engagement ring then well, you're just going to have to deal with it.
We both agreed that cubic was the way to go. The trick was to pick a discreet, mortal sized rock rather than the huge guady things that cubic is normally packaged with.
I even took her to the jewler to pick it out, er have it sized. ;)
Of course, it doesn't hurt that she's an engineer and so am I....
For the record, no one ever knew it was cubic. Fawning relatives always told us how beautiful it was. She liked it because it had perfect clarity, which is hard to find in real diamonds.
She also informs me that diamonds are not forever. The have an high-maintenance crystal structure that degrades to graphite in a few million years or so.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
The article concerning De Beers manipulation of the diamond market was a good read but it took me quite a while to realise it is twenty years old! Has anyone got a link to a more recent appraisal of De Beers / the diamond market?
for the love of the gods, stop this nonsence... Can someone tell me how this is even news for nerds? Toss up a fucking coin to decide... Jeesh
When I asked my woman to marry me, I originaly gave her a locket. It had a picture of me, a picture of her, and two empty spots for pictures of our future children.
She loved it. But, about 3 months of trying to explain what an engagement locket was wore her down. She would look at everyone elses diamond engagement ring with envy.
I eventually broke down and bought her a diamond ring. I realize now that I should have done that from the start. I'm very glad that I did, and I would definately say that it was worth the money.
If you bought a diamond you could afford, then you didn't go with tradition :-)
For those worries about blood diamonds, Canadian diamonds are supposed to be a good alternative. Apparently they have a little polar bear laser etched onto them, so you can always tell this brand of "blood-free" diamonds. The ad I saw basically stated this...buy Canadian diamonds as an alternative to blood diamonds. If I'm not mistaken, it also wasn't just one supplier, but a collective of Canadian companies that use the polar bear.
That being said, beware all-ye who care to fly in the face of the DeBeers tradition. It may be a manufactured tradition, but almost without exception, all the ladies I know really couldn't care less-they want that rock, no matter how silly it may/may not be (think greeting cards: contrived, but loved). Keep in mind that US culture very highly prizes finding that knight in shining armor to come and be the ideal husband, even in this day of liberated and career oriented women. Just like it's a power thing for men to have a young and lovely wife, it's a status (therefore power) thing for women to have a rich and powerful husband who could easily afford the right ring.
More power to you if you can find someone to have a relationship with that isn't fixated on the big wedding/diamond, etc. thing. My experience is that most women, despite what they may claim, have a great big soft spot for it. Personally, I'd be happy to live without it.
That pretty much says it all about my take on the matter. The diamond market is a sham. Dealers keep it artificially high by manipulating the supply. If diamonds were sold like any other raw material they'd be almost as cheap as a shard of window pane glass.
Your computer doesn't worth a penny (well maybe it worth a couples) after ... say two years?
What's wrong with a good ironing board? Just what she always wanted!
Support Your Local Grower.
If you wish to create a small being that has your genes, you *must* buy the diamond.
I would love to see the Israelis do this, if they used large enough weaponry - the blast radius and fallout would nicely blanket the whole country, giving the Israelis proper punishment for Zionism.
The only alternative I know of to a diamond engagement ring is an inflatable love doll. Most women I know are set on that diamond ring.
Start your own tradition to combat the "well orchestrated advertising campaign" of cartels. Use the diamonds from your grandmothers (assuming they passed away) or mothers ring. This also has the advantage of being cheaper since you don't have to pay for the diamonds.
If "resell value" is a consideration, perhaps you should re-think your engagement.
There's a lot of good responses here. But there are two kinds of responses that stand out the most: (1) "My wife and I were like-minded in our desire to not follow the herd, and we decided together on an alternative to a 'traditional' diamond." (2) "Don't be a fool. Everyone buys a diamond. No one will understand if you don't buy a diamond. She's expecting a diamond." The only thing those responses have in common is "her." Why are you asking us? Ask her. If you think she secretly wants a diamond, but is unwilling to tell you, you have more serious problems than whether or not to buy the diamond (both on her end and your end). In the end, you should give her something that will make her happy (and by making her happy, you should be happy), not something that will satisfy your overdeveloped sense of world guilt.
Rember, according to the rules you are to spend two months salary on the ring. That's two months gross salary, not net.
;)
I recommend working at a lemonaid stand for the two months when you calculate this. On a good day you could clear $5.
I am getting married, and my girldfriend, does not want a diamond no matter what. She can not see spending the money and does not like the ethical concerns that go with it. Although, I might be in trouble ( not that I mind ) now that people have pointed out places like the polar bear company. Regardless, I think this is a decision every couple has to make for themselves. We are going with another stone still pricey but good, I think if she is willing to take the heat, (and she will from her friends going where is your DIAMOND) then support her. I don't say this from a cheap jerk standpoint, I would much rather stick with tradition. Anyway, just my thoughts
... then you can always get a Linux-powered Mattel Powerglove to keep you occupied
Are a TOTAL rip off. DO NOT BUY THEM. De Beers is a massive global cartel (with no office in the USA...because it would get pounded by the anti-trust laws..), the price is wildly inflated. They are not rare ! Look in the stores - there are MILLIONS of them...A fine ruby is far better value and far rarer. The wholesale price is controled by something call the "Rappaport Sheet" - called the rap sheet in the trade. Ask your jeweller what the rap sheet is and see him go pale. You are not supposed to know about it...Diamonds are the product of brilliant marketing. You will NEVER get your money back when you buy them - stick to GOOD rubies or sapphires.....
Actually, a ruby is worth more per karat than a diamond, and I personally think they are much more visually appealing. I bet if you get her a nice sized heart shaped ruby she would be just as happy. And you might actually stand a chance of it holding its value should (God forbid) things not work out.
...and they will even tell you as much. The way I figure it, no one really cares, because diamonds are a luxury item, not a necessity. Buy her the ring; remember, you'll be sleeping next to her for a long time..........
"Um, honey? I read on /. that diamonds are evil, so I got you a Radeon 9700 instead." Yeah, that will go over really well...
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
Speaking as a member of the feminine persuasion, I chose moissanite for my replacement engagement ring (original got damaged).
I couldn't stomach the idea of dropping a serious chunk of change on something that I would basically just wear on my finger, but I wanted a large stone because I have big hands (I'm 5'11"). A 2.3 carat moissanite was more than large enough, seriously cheap (got it from a dealer, not a retail store) and very durable (9.5 compared to a diamonds' 10)
Plus the technology/science behind the stone was appealing to my somewhat geekish tendencies.
r0wan
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.
She comes from a tradition that I think emphasizes physical things. She completely 100% expects for me to buy her a multi-thousand dollar engagement ring, to be shortly followed by a multi-thousand dollar wedding ring.
I told her that this was just simply not an option. I do love her, but even with all moral arguments aside, $10000+ for two little things to wear on your fingers? I posited to her that it would be so much more useful to put the money into something else, like a home or a bank somewhere. This seemed to have no effect on her.
She simply responded with, "but I want to have rings to wear..." I really do love her, but my god I can't understand how she can be that in love with a completely fictitiously inflated diamond ring.
I'm planning to get her an extremely nice ring in platinum, and it will most likely unfortunately have a nice diamond on it or I really do believe she will never, ever forgive me.
It's just the reality with some women, it's her culture (she's Iranian, they seem to have this thing for public display of wealth, and a diamond seems to count).
I used a local jewelry designer.
The owner of the store knows exactly where they buy the diamonds from.
For some reason local jewelry designers are much less expensive.
I designed my wife's ring based on conversations with her. 1/4 k diamond, two sapphires, white gold. It cost $1400. My wedding ring was purchased from the same store and was based on her ring. We were able to save money by using stones from jewelry that we owned. My ring was $400.
The same two rings would have over $3000 total in a chain store.
28 years ago when my wife and I got engaged, I didn't have much money or regard for tradition (still don't). What I did was melt down 8 silver quarters into a solid rod that I then fashioned into a bracelet. It took a lot of time and effort to make it since I'm not a jeweler and I've never done anything like it since. My wife loves it and still wears it today. The point is that if you can craft something with your own hands that lasts, that may actually have more meaning than something you buy.
Moissanite. All the qualaties of a diamond without the price. When I got engaged to my wife, we discussed the options. She looked at moissanite and agreed that it looked promising. One trip to a jeweler and she was sold. A stone equivalent to a 1 carat diamond cost ~$300. No one that has seen her ring has had any idea that it was not a real diamond. She loves it and I loved the lower price.
Maybe this has been said...Why does an engagement ring have to be a diamond? There are plenty of other precious stones. What's important is your pain. All they are really testing is willingness to self sacrifice. She needs to know that if and when the time comes you will throw your body in front of a bus to save her future baby. This isn't a tradition, it is quite primal. Get used to spending your money on worthless things. In this situation being poor is an advantage. Just show her your tax return then show her the receipt for the ring (which of course you spent half your income on). Regardless of where this tradition came from it's proven the test of time.
My wife, gifted in the art of subtle hints, managed to convince me over time that she had no interest in diamonds at all. I was also able to confirm this with several of her longtime friends, and after some thought I arrived at a conclusion: If she wanted anything more than a simple band of gold, it would be a ring with her birthstone (emerald.) I finally found a ring with an emerald centerprice, with a few (much smaller) diamonds on either side. Thus, the diamond "tradition" was covered, for those that might otherwise have been critical, and she received a ring that was truly "hers" in the sense that it was personal and somewhat unique. I assure you that she was every bit as speechless when she opened the box. She still smiles every time she has the ring cleaned, and every time someone says "Ooo! May I see your ring? How unique!" or similar.
:)
Several others have commented that the matter of engagement rings is all about pleasing your partner, and they're absolutely right. This kind of ring is more than a "token" or a simple "tradition"---it's a very personal gift. A gift this expensive *should* be something she will cherish for the rest of her life. If you can find such a special gift without compromising your principles, so much the better.
Good luck... I hope she says "yes!"
Blue topaz has a hardness of 8 (i.e. very hard), and 5 years on the rings are still going strong, even though we're both quite rough with them. I guess we're about due for an upgrade though -- maybe peridot or tourmaline this time!
I gave my Girlfriend (now wife) an antique engagement ring belonging to one of my grand?/great grandmothers that was a set of 5 chrystal/white saphires set in sterling silver.
This was way cool because aside from the intrisic heirloom value, the ring appears to be diamonds set in platium (unless you look closely)!
my engagement ring was not a diamond, and I do not feel cheated *at all*. My ring is far more special. Why? Because we went antique-jewelry shopping! :)
I like nifty old stuff, you see. Sufficient poking around let us eventually turn up a very pretty ring with my birthstone that is, I think, a lot more interesting and attractive than a new diamond ring could ever be.
(Alas, I don't wear it much, because rings interfere with my typing.)
My brother asked his wife what kinda diamond she wanted when they got ingaged and she told him that she wanted a blue-diamond colored pickup truck, cost way more than any diamond and she gets a lot of use out of it, she has a couple of horses and does biological research. So there is one alternative.
. ... more info at http://www.moissanite.com/
Moissanite is a far more ethical, elegant, and practical gemstone
If you are thinking of marrying a woman whose first thouth about getting married would be how big is the ring .....Run....There are actually sane women out there who want a ring but don't need a rock (and that is all it is!)
Business is Business and Business must grow, Regardless of crummies in tummies you know... -Onceler
I got my fiancee (now my wife) a beautiful pearl necklace as an engagement present. She was very happy with it. She later admitted wanting a diamond but didn't seem to resent me about it once I explained my reason for not getting one. (ethical as opposed to fiscal). If you feel buying diamonds is wrong, don't do so. You wouldn't get her a crack rock and a black market baby as an engagement present, why buy a stone with an almost equally dirty history?
Here's what I did. I took my girlfriend to several jewelry shops and let her point out to me the rings she liked. The whole thing was great fun for her, trying on rings and viewing how they looked on her hand. Meanwhile, I memorized the looks of the rings she liked best.
Then, I designed a ring that had the best features of all of them (basically I just drew up my ideas freehand). I sent the designs to my brother, who is an apprentice jeweler, and had him make the ring out of platinum. For the stones, I chose a large natural Yogo sapphire. These are very rare natural sapphires found only in Montana, and are deemed to be among the most beautiful sapphires in the world due to their perfect color. The one I chose was almost as expensive as a diamond of equal size (around $3k) and will hold its value much better. On each side of the sapphire I had him mount a small diamond (about 0.2 carat) which really accented the look.
Let me tell you, she loved the ring! Not only was it different and beautiful because of the sapphire, it was custom-designed by me. She proudly showed it off to all her friends, who had nothing to say once they saw it and heard that I had designed it myself. In fact, some of them even turned to their boyfriends/husbands and impishly asked them why they couldn't do something that sweet. Just like girls!
As guys, sometimes we may feel oppressed by what we view as the irrational requirements of our beloved better halves. But if you take to it with a good attitude and do something really original, it can be fun for you too. It certainly was for me!
You can check out pictures of the ring here.
How early is the diamond ring?
I know of a reference circa 1200(?) on the tradition (Ran; Kiddushin). It specifically talks about why a gem (on a ring) is given at engagement, and only a plain ring at the wedding. My assumption is that it is much older than that.
Have you read my journal today?
Diamonds have been over priced for years, are marked up higher than any other jewel specifically because of the engagement ring tradition, and are about as time-honored as Valentines day. If you're just picking up on this now, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
I proposed to my girlfriend when we were both in college, and I had very little money. I was going to go to graduate school, and knew I wouldn't have any money for a long time. The ring was a modestly sized garnet, in a simple gold setting, $50 at Sears. Up to that time, it was probably the most money I'd every spent on jewelry.
/. topic, I know nobody is going to read this. It's like those sand paintings that are created in order to celebrate what *is*, not in the expectation that they will be responded to, or become a permanat exhibit. I just wanted to declare to the world that the quality of your love is so very much more important than the chemical composition of the ring that symbolizes it.
She loved it, because of what it represented. She knew I had more prospects than money, and she was able to see the ring for what it meant, rather than what it was composed of chemically. She told me that she was glad I hadn't blown a ton of dough on a big ring I couldn't really afford, because she didn't want to start our married life in debt for something that wouldn't add to quality of life the way a car, house, blender, etc. would. Our wedding was great, our marriage has been wonderful. I would be a shabby imitation of myself if I didn't have her in my life.
She got a lot of really great reactions to the ring, surprisingly. A red stone for an engagement ring is unusual enough to be eye-catching. It's a dark red garnet, and a lot of people asked if it was a ruby. She's not ashamed of her ring, and always told them that it's a garnet, a semi-precious stone. I suppose there's a certain cache in that, a ring who's value is so purely symbolic, because she often saw women with big diamond rings in platinum settings get jealous.
We've been married 11 years, now. Our third child, a little girl, was born 8 weeks ago, and our two boys are bright, energetic, handsome kids. Our love is flourishing. As for the ring, my wife accidentally dropped it over the railing from the third tier at Wrigley Field a month after we were married, still not used to wearing it. By some miracle, we found it on the pavement outside the park; one of the prongs holding the garnet in place got bent, but the stone was OK. After a few years, the thin gold band was wearing through, and the bent prong would catch on fabric, and she had to be really careful with it. For our 5 year anniversary, I suggested we get her a higher quality ring. OK, but she wouldn't hear of replacing her garnet. We had the stone reset in a better quality band, flanked with a pair of small diamonds. We'd saved up some money, despite both of us being in graduate school at that point, and went with diamonds for an aesthic reason - they set off the garnet and made it appear even more dark and lustrous.
When I finished my PhD, and got a postdoc position, with my first salary that didn't start with a "1", I wanted to adorne my wife, to gild the lily, give her something beatuiful and extravagant and utterly impractical, to make up for the years of more practical and useful gifts. She selected small diamond stud earrings... because our new baby boy kept grabbing at the long, dangling earrings she typically wore. Sensible, even in her extravagances. What a wife.
I got a real job three years ago, and we moved and bought a house. For our 10th anniversary, we were still broke from buying the house. For our 11th anniversary, our 4-week old baby let us sleep for 6 hours straight. It was wonderful. After a few raises and promotions, I've got some money now. I suggested to my wife that we get her some more jewelry, maybe some rubies or emeralds to set off her eyes. With a kiss and a hug, she handed me a stack of brochures about savings plans for college tuition, and said that there were more important things. What a wife.
With 300+ comments already attached to this
The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
I read an interesting article in National Geographic some time back about the inflated cost of diamonds and how that really might be something of a myth. According to the article there have been quite a few independent diamond sellers popping up in the last few years and at times have caused some problems for DeBeers to the point where DeBeers actually experienced a brief diamond shortage as they had to drop their prices to compete. By raising their prices back up some they manage to keep supply and demand in line.
.25 carat or smaller, I don't remember exactly). Finding a chunk of rock that can produce a big (greater than 1 carat) diamond is pretty rare. In my case, my wife has small hands and didn't want a huge rock to drag around so a nice .5 carat diamond was perfect (and didn't cost the outrageous 2-3 months salary men are "supposed to spend" on engagement rings).
Now maybe people saw this as prices dropping from their "normal" levels and ran out to get a deal on a diamond, when in fact prices were dropping to a normal level.
Whether it's based on artificially high "normal" diamond prices or not, there is some market controlled pricing.
And one more little side note, as far as the real value of diamonds, huge diamond mines pull very few large usable stones out of the ground. Most diamonds, when cut and polished, are pretty small (maybe
~LD
First my qualifications: I have been married for 16 years to one wonderful woman. We have 4 kids.(OK I'm older than most /. ers) I can honestly say, that I have loved every minute of our marriage. I love making this woman happy and she makes me grin like a five year old in a candy store.
My advice: Look seriously at your relationship. If you can't talk about the realities of engagement and marriage honestly and openly, step back and improve the relationship before moving forward.
Then, talk with her and find out what she would like. That doesn't have to be a matter-of-fact, in your face arguement. Be smart and LISTEN (by the way, that's what women REALLY want.) Then do whatever you can really afford to make her dreams come true. Put some thought into it. Make it original and meaningful. The fore-thought must show through!
My story: I knew my gf came from a very traditional background. She worked with a gossipy bunch. She isn't materialistic. She IS sentimental. I wanted to give her a ring and an EXPERIENCE she could brag about to her friends and would always remember. Since my natural father died when I was young, my mom gave me her rings from him. I had them cleaned up and packeged, etc. Since the ring wasn't expensive I had some money to spend on the engagement night. (How you ask IS important.) I took her to a fancy seafood dinner (her favorite), then a fun play. On the way home, I stopped at an old fashioned park by the lake. There under the moonlight, we sat on a park bench under a small streetlight. The old oak trees were draped with spanish moss. I knelt down on one knee, swallowed hard and asked. She still brags about that night to her friends!
So: remember the ring is a symbol. Symbols mean something to very specific people. Find the symbol that will mean the right thing to both of you. BTW, If you are trying to justify being cheap, you are doomed!
Geek ponders spending money on diamond for his girl, or a new computer.
When I proposed, I used a puzzle ring instead of a diamond because
1) Her father is a jeweler, so no matter what I got I would have paid too much
2) It has more entertainment value than just a ring, and we both enjoy a little mental challange
3) It's fairly attractive
4) It's cheaper than a diamond
She loved it. Except that I didn't bring the instructions with me to the Cayman Islands where I proposed and it took us all week to figure it out.
You can find sellers all over the internet with a simple search for "puzzle ring". Here's one example: http://www.puzzlering.net/ (.net? What are they thinking?)
--NerdMachine
I gave my wife a pearl necklace. Now, every night she wants a pearl necklace. It gets tiring.
there are lots of gem stones in the universe...
pick one you like, and buy the girl a nice ring.
I was recently married and it was the happiest day of my life thus far. Our engagement during the previous year was wonderful. I purchased a very lovely, clear, almost colorless, 3/4 carat, brilliant cut diamond to go on my bride's setting of choice. The rock is beautiful, not gaudy, and hella sparkly! Lots of my wife's friends are snotty, competitive "I'm getting married before you are" types. My wife is not, however whenever the snotty friends asked to see her ring they all get quiet and comment on how beautiful it is....PERIOD!
I'm not intending this post to brag about my diamond-buying prowess, rather to submit this point: A diamond is a traditional engagement item. Before DeBeers marketing department got into our heads pearl rings were the engagement standard to the ruin of plenty of oysters. If you are worried about buying your bride-to-be a piece of jewelry that devalues when you leave the jeweler than I suggest you buy a chunk of bullion or some other "value holding" precious metal. I doubt she'll get the thrill from the ingot that she'd get showing all her friends the diamond that her man gave her as a promise of his honorable intentions.
Final point....your car devalues as soon as you drive it off the lot....do you own a horse?
As I say over and over again...MY $.02,
MMMmmmmmm....erotic cakes!!! Homer J. Simpson - Treehouse of Horror VI
If you are making a life-long commitment, what in the world are you concerned with resale value??? When you buy computer parts, do you worry about the resale value? Are you planning on trading you soon-to-be wife in after 5 years? (and if you are, why not just recycle the ring?) You aren't buying a car, you aren't even buying an appliance.... get a GRIP! I agree that there are issues with diamonds, but being of the female persuasion, I have to admit that I have a weakness for jewelry. That doesn't mean I have to have the biggest or brightest, or even that I want a diamond. And as far as that goes, I can buy my own damned diamond! When (and if) my boyfriend proposes to me, I would much prefer that his method focus on sentiment and not on cost. (and that is only if he beats me to it) And for the record, I have given him roses on a few occasions, as well as gifts of jewelry, so I do believe that at least some of we WOMYN(joke) no longer feel that we should be only on the receiving end. Rant Over....
After being in the same situation recently, I found The Gemesis Corp in FL. www.gemesis.com They make flawless diamonds that cost 80% less than a "real" diamond. Here is something else, a challenge that made natural diamonds and synthetic diamonds different was the way the carbon atoms were constructed, well not any more. The catch, they only make fancy yellow diamonds. I spoke at great length with someone from Gemesis, and this person more or less indicated that legal pressure from the industry (DeBeers) was stopping them from selling the clear diamonds they could produce in 72 hours in their little "crock pot." So the excuse was that they didn't have the technology to keep the quality of the clear diamonds high.
Now if anyone claims that diamonds are a fair trade, they are either in the business, or they have there head up their ass looking for one.
Any half ass jewler (even retail) will take back the diamond that you bought from them. In addition, if you buy a certified diamond from either a third party or a retail/wholesale jewler, the only thing that you are going to be stuck with is the band. I bought my fiance a 1ct diamond, on a platinum band. I thought it was great. Certified and all. I later found out that the jewler used yellow gold to solder the band after sizing it. This makes the whole fucking ring look terrible. MAKE SURE THAT THEY USE THE RIGHT METAL FOR SOLDERING. This will make even the most perfect diamond look like crap as it reflects the yellow through the diamond.
BTW - congrats. My fiance and I are getting married on April 26th, 2003.
think before you write, it'll save me moderator points.
The best thing you can do with a diamond is shove it on the end of a drilling rig, and use it to core through basalt :)
When I purchase jewelery for my g/fs (which unfortunately are all my ex-g/fs right now). I don't purchase it because it has a big rock on it, or because DeBeers tells me to buy diamonds.
I spend money on the jewels that show the workmanship of the jeweler, show the artistry. The stone is just an accessory of the final product. Nothing more. If I found a ring that looks beautiful that my wife would accept as an engagement ring and it didn't have any diamonds on it, I wouldn't mind.
The diamond is just an accessory to the final artistic piece that is the ring. Unfortunately, most people don't realize this, and just decide that the bigger the 'rock' is the better. When it's more a question of how much effort was placed in the creation of the piece of art that is jewelery.
The British Crown Jewels are all works of art, not because they have large 'rocks' in them. But rather because those rocks have been so well placed in a way that shows beauty and light.
Just MHO of course.
~ kjrose
some rock shox. You ppl are dating the wrong wmn.
My wife and I resolved the conflict between the expectations of society (and more particular, certain relatives and friends) and our own tendency towards fiscal and social responsibility by getting her a stunning cubic zirconia in a very nice setting. CZ these days are good enough that it's fooled every jeweler that's seen it. We were more interested in things like hardware upgrades and a replacement for our dying car at the time. My ring is a simple white gold band, no decoration at all.
this is getting old and so are you
blog
I personally didn't buy diamonds at all. I got a sapphire ring for my (now) fiancee. She loved it and found it to be just as nice as expensive diamonds would have been. In fact, she made it a point (in anticipation of my getting a ring) of telling me not to spend too much money and asked me not to buy a large, expensive ring. Maybe some traditions die hard, but this isn't the 1700's anymore. Culture is moving away from sexism as well as hard-wired, compulsory traditions. If the only possible way to express your love is to send yourself into debt, then I think something is very wrong. If your woman will only be happy with something incredibly expensive, then, again, something isn't quite right. You can say 'it's just money', and what is money when compared with love---but that simply equates money with love. I am completely leaving out the issues behind the mining of diamonds as well as the racket that makes them so damn expensive, for the sake of space. Bottom line: Society today is very, very materialistic. Despite that, serious love should not hinge on a monetary committment of any kind. Whatever you do in order to show your love, just make sure it is sincere and meaningful --- not just an "everyone else does it, so I will too" sort of thing. A diamond ring may seem special...but think of it this way, everyone and their mothers buys diamond rings, many because it is just tradition. How special is that really?
Not sure if this is in the same boat with the diamond ring but one year I decided on a non-traditional anniversary gift for my wife. We had a new house and no land scaping. I had a crew come in and spent a ton of money on land scaping as the anniversary gift. I was told it was not personal enough by my wife. Being a guy I still don't understand this line of thought. This wife is now my ex-wife. Women, can't live with them, can't live without them. God does have a sense of humor and women are proof of it!
I'm currently in the same position in that I'm trying to find the best bang for the buck. Over the past few months I've learned a fair bit about the 4 C's.
My girlfriend actually found that eBay has some good deals on diamonds for a decent price (much less than what you'll find in stores). There are a lot of jewlers from the NYC diamond district (although I can't confirm the validity of it) that sell on there.
Some sellers post the EGL/GIA stone ID so you can research the diamond a little more to make sure you're getting what they say you're getting. It might be something to check into.
The bonus is that I can see what kind of diamonds/rings/styles she likes every time she tells me to check out the best bargain. The only drawback is picking one and not being in the position where she says "I like this one much better than the other one."
I got lucky, my mom had an heirloom.. but I was not about to be stupid and get something else.
You "MEN" (yea me too) dont get it do you? women spend most of thier young lives dreaming of the wedding day and the most "perfect" person. They have to be done right.. It HAS to be done right.
What I do/did was simple. Gave her a Carat Diamond that was worth 5 months salary (heirloom = no cost to me), and let her plan her wedding and spend the money (3 months salary) on the wedding.
She STILL watches the wedding. That is so important.
Remember you are DOING this for LIFE. If this was second or third time around, I would say dont care. If you are so hard up about spending money on your woman, then maybe you should think about another woman or forget marriage.
Once you get married, you will have no more money anyways.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
the subject says it all.
It is by coff... er, will, alone I set my mind in motion...
Check out Gemesis. A friend of mine designed the vessels they use to make their diamonds. Nothing bigger than 1.5 karats, but you can get nifty colors. These are real diamonds and indistinguishable from "natural" ones, but deBeers doesn't get any of your cash. This may resolve some of your ethical concerns.
You getting her an expensive engagement ring, w/o mentioning what she's getting you sounds a bit one-sided, antiquated, and/or sexist.
You are forming a collective/cooperative/partnership of 2 equals, right? So where's her reciprocal, same-value gift for you? What is it you, or others, think that you're getting in exchange for that token of your affection? Once you start asking these questions, this 'traditional' social interaction starts to look a bit odd, maybe even repulsive for some.
When my wife and i decided to get married, we decided to do so simultaneously in a very adult, pleasant conversation that was centered on what we wanted, not what others expected of us.
Our engagement, as such, was merely the planning period (six months) necessary to work out the convoluted diplomatic/legal details of arranging a ceremony that would satisfy governments and family from both sides of the atlantic: she's a basque spaniard, i'm a u.s. citizen.
In fact, we didn't even have any rings at all until about 3 days before the ceremony, when my wife's sister gifted us 2 simple gold bands. We still wear them happily.
Maybe we hang out with unusual people, but nobody asked to see her "rock" or asked me how much i was going to throw out the window on a worthless piece of carbon.
So, here's my free advice: screw what the rest of the lemmings think, keep everything as simple as possible, and strive for happiness.
Enjoy
This must be a North American or western phenomenom. My wife is from India, and while they lover jewelry, its usually gold they want, not diamonds.
When my wife and I became engaged I had very little money for a diamond. I did live along the border of Mexico however. I went to a rock shop and chose a very nice amethyst loose and had it mounted by a local craftsman in Mexico in a design I specified. My wife loved it because it was unique. Five years later she still loves it. The cost was less than the first payment on a similar sized diamond.
This is the route I went in picking out a ring for my beloved. I found a beautiful antique ring with a diamond and two sapphires, and paid about 50% of the appraisal value. Not that either of us would ever sell the ring, but it does still have its full resale value, and has probably appreciated slightly from when I bought it. The ring also has something most modern "engagement" rings don't: character. Most modern rings are a simple band of gold, and a diamond of whatever size you can afford whacked in the middle of it. It's obvious to all around who look at the ring (and her friends will scrutinize this) how much you care about her, as judged by the size of the diamond in the middle of the ring. Find a small local antique shop, and support your local merchant. They probably shop locally, too. I guarantee not one cent from that sale went directly to fund any terrorist activity (unless you count putting gas in the shopkeeper's car).
At any rate, it's possible to get a decent ring, at a decent price, and you need not feel guilty about slave labour, or supporting terrorism. Buy a ring. Choose wisely.
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
... are to be found in a ring I inherited from my grandmother. Whilst neither of us would have considered going out and buying them, the family connection makes the difference.
I had a
i think many of you confuse 'cheap' with 'smart enough to realize the status quo sucks'
rocks are a horrid waste, i'd sooner spend 6-10k on a car, a trip, hell, i'd rather have a gargantuan mound of charcoal, at least that carbon can cook steaks.
Maybe its just me, but i also find the concept of paying a dowry insulting, but then i also find the concept of formalized marriage stupid, archaic, and just what everyone expects me to do, so don't ask me!
Where is my ring? my fancy dinner? eh?
If we are, in theory, progressing towards equality between the sexes, then a future two-income household shouldn't have such a lopsided courting procedure.
In to symbolism? then buy something you can afford. Don't blow what could amount to all or half a down payment on a house on an ugly lump of carbon.
semantics are everything!
I don't know your girlfriend, and I don't know how she feels, but if your girlfriend has always wanted a diamond wedding ring, then symbolicly it's going to always mean a lot to her if she gets one. As much as you may rationalize not getting her one she will ultimately resent your rationalizing away her feelings.
You may think a Tux watch is a better way to show your love for her, but if she does't feel the same, it isn't.
If it is important to her, if she feels it is a symbol of marriage and represents your love and devotion, then it is one for her -- isn't that enough?
---
I support spreading santorum
You can still get an expensive, good looking ring without all the value being put into the diamond. When I got engaged, I bought my fiancee a platinum ring with a small diamond. It (in both our opinions) is better looking then a large diamond ring, still pretty expensive (~2Gs, not bad for a college kid), and retains most of it's value (it probably had $500 or so wrapped up in the smallish sized diamond, the rest was overhead and platinum, much higher % resale). You don't have to throw away the tradition of an engagment ring, just look into alternative. I don't know about other rocks, but I'm sure you can do similar things with other rare rocks.
"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." -Philips
Diamonds are not time honored tradition!! It's all a DeBeer's ploy. Don't believe me, this article talks about it and has links to people like the Washington Post. DeBeer's created the diamond market and created the "tradition." They've received advertising honors for this feat!
http://www.howstuffworks.com/diamond3.htm
When I bought my wife her engagement ring, I had it designed. There is no other ring in the world that looks like this. We did end up putting a very, very small diamond in the top to break up the design a little, but that was more from the jewlers addition. My wife did not really care about the diamond. She enjoys this ring much more than a generic engagement ring, because less face it they all look the same, I designed and created it with her in mind.
One word: MOISSANITE. High-quality, man-made, and the only way one can tell the difference is via chemical analysis.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/moissanite.htm
I was actually thinking about this recently and a diamond really isn't practical at all. I mean, engagements are temporary because they eventually lead to marriage. Why are you giving her something that will last forever?
I know if I was a girl, I would appreciate an Engagement Used Car. Something nice...like a used 80s BMW. It's practical, she can take her friends around in it, and best of all, it'll probably break down by the time you give her the wedding ring. Perfect!
------
Royalty Free and Open Source Web Designs at OSWD
The most bang-for-the-buck for my money would be a tourmaline.
Advantages of tourmaline - available in *a lot* of colours. You can get quite rare varieties, and interesting things like watermelon. (I have seen 2 ring sized beautiful examples of watermelon in my life. Lovely!)
Since when is any of this news? If your intended doesn't get it, find another. It's not like there aren't billions of other women out there.
It's not like any OIL MONEY goes towards terrorism ...
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
The ads don't say which two months' salary, right? Here's what you do - take a leave of absence or quit your job, if you have one, for two months. Enjoy your time off - maybe even spend it with your sweetie, but do some panhandling in the subway/mall/wherever to make a little money during that time. With those two months' salary, buy your sweetie a ring. Then return to work.
You pussy. You are worried about spending money on a seemingly worthless item for your fiancee. Get used to it. So what if you have "ethical" objections. Do it because she wants you too. You will spend lots of money on worthless things when you get married. It's part of "sharing".
I bought a certified stone...highly rated in the 4Cs...loose, in order to design my then girlfriend a ring. Flash forward...I don't need the rock, and even though it's appraised through the roof, certified out the wazoo, and I got it from a diamond wholesaler (a pretty cool affair actually), so I got a good deal (relative to the other options); I need the cash now for something else and can't get two-thirds what I paid for it.
Big ripoff
I, fortunately, married a woman who hates gold, diamonds, and rings with stones...sterling silver all the way. and the cool thing about silver is if you pick a design that has raised stuff, it is brought out by tarnish behind and looks cool
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Yes!!! Thank god I'm not the only one who feels this way. For some reason, I have no problem with sucking down a burger for which a cow had to die, but I hate seeing dead(dying) flowers no matter how pretty.
I guess it's cause a dead cow serves a purpose (feeding me), but cut flowers are just pretty to look at...
Then when I try to place potted plants in some strategic spots (like bedroom dressers etc), then "you just don't do that"... What's up with that???
"If you could only see what I've seen with your eyes..." - Roy Batty
I don't get that commercial. How the hell do they encourage me to buy a diamond ring. 3 MONTHS' SALARY!
If I want three months' salary to last forever, I'll use it as a down-payment on a house.
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought.
1.17 caret Tsavorite Garnet on a custom Platinum band. It's not a diamond, it has a lot of value, and it's a beautiful green color (darker than emerald, with higher refractive index).
When we were buying our wedding set we looked at the 'traditional' diamond center stone, and it looked stupid. We went with smaller diamonds surrounding a ruby center stone -- the combination looks great and we didn't spend our life's savings on it.
Remember that this isn't an investment. Resale value has no meaning, because you're not going to be selling it (and if you think you might then why the hell are you getting married?).
But you do have to make her happy, and that means fufulling hundreds of years of accumulated social expectations. As much as that sucks, its the reality, so get used to it.
Congratulations and Good Luck!
Remember Lexington Green!
Hi everyone,
I just thought I would mention that there is more than you could do than just give a rock to someone to let them know how MUCH you care. When I proposed to my wife, I skimped a little bit on the rock (not much), and took her to Germany for Octoberfest when I proposed in castle Neuschwanstein. I always felt that how you propose is just as important as the ring, which should just be a reminder of the proposal.
My 2 cents!
Jim - your name is Jim...
Pawn shops are like a bizaar where you haggle with the shop owner. View it as an exercise in social engineering. The first thing to know is that pawn shops only pay for the metal the rock is set in. Ignore what the setting looks like, look at the rock(s). Haggle like crazy. Any money you pay beyond the value of the metal is like buying bluesky. Once you have your rocks have them set in a custom ring by a small independent jeweler. She will have a one of a kind ring to wear and you will not have supported the extraction of yet another rock from the ground.
I do happen to have several sets of heirloom engagement rings and wedding bands from other women in my line. I used one set for the ceremony more to honor the memory of the woman who wore it than to symbolize a bond between myself and my husband. I do occasionally wear any one of the sets, but frequently I wear no wedding/engagement ring at all.
I know many women who have wedding bands but no engagement rings, and a lot of engaged women who do not have engagement rings. One couple I know have rather elaborate wedding rings set with turquoise.
There are a lot of reasons to not buy a diamond engagement ring, including the ones you state. They are expensive and frivolous. To me, the idea that a man has to lay out outrageous amounts of money to "prove" his love is a shallow notion. Choose another stone that does not conflict with your ideals, or get her no engagement ring at all.
When my wife of 23 years and I got engaged, we went to a precious stone merchant where we bought our birth stones. We then had them set into a custom made engagement ring. The cost was about the same and the ring a lot more personal.
Birthstones can be viewed at http://www.gems4friends.com/birthstones.html".
Of course, if your birthday in in April and her's is in May you're going to spend a lot more than we did.
As a DeBeers fan and former shareholder of it, this book was quite an interesting read.
Fun little DeBeers facts
- Before the "Diamond is Forever" campaign -- which is the most successful advertising campaign ever -- the majority of engagment rings were not diamonds
- Rhodesia (the former African country) was named after one of DeBeers' founders
- The first major diamond mine in South Africa is at Kimberley. As a result there is very South African women named Kimberely since it is associated with "a bit black hole".
Speaking as a man who just laid to rest his marriage of 15 years to the Wicked Witch of the West, I can tell you this:
Don't get married. Just find a woman who hates you and buy her a house.
It's considerably less painful and expensive that way.
In addition to the huge lawyer bills, I lost a $400K house, most everything in it, my two kids and I'm going to be paying over US$3K/month to the psychobitch for at least the next 14 years.
The glass is neither half-empty nor half-full.
The glass is simply the wrong size.
-- BitterMan
Knowing your 4 c's, I'm sure that you know that the clearer the diamond (white) the better, however when a diamond is very coloured, then it warrants a premium price. (unless of course that colour is brown (what the bastards will call champagne))
If you want a splashy diamond that is not in the dime-a-dozen category (and De Beers has warehouses so full of ordinary diamonds that they would be worthless were they all released) then get something that is a strong blue, yellow, or pink. Now, there is still no such thing as an "investment diamond" nomatter what they tell you, but if you get something unique, then it will be not only saleable in the event of hard times, but will be something more special to future generations.
You also might think about an antique diamond ring. Of course diamonds from the days before they knew how to cut them for maximum reflection (the very old ones are icosohedrons) they looked like ass, but if you want something that has a history, that is the way to go.
Along a totally different line, you might buy your fiancee a corundum (saphire or ruby). Just make sure that it is a natural corundum, as the artificially produced ones are hard to tell apart with the naked eye. There are some fantastic saphires and rubies out there and they do hold more value than diamonds in general.
And make sure that, if you do have your heart set on a white diamond, that you have it set in white gold or, better yet, in platinum. A platinum engagement and wedding ring combination is stylish and posh and will really stand out compared to yellow gold...what is the point of a very white diamond if you are going to set it in yellow gold? For that matter a deeply coloured stone will stand out better on platinum too, so think about that for your blue diamond as well.
I was able to use my grandmothers ring, it had quite a lot of diamonds in it, and to make things even better.. they don't cut the diamonds like that any more and it had an antique look and feel (you know made between 1939 and 1940)..
"It's not like your minds are as open as the source you love..." - Me to the majority of Slashdot.
Yet, I was also aware of the social preasures for a man to give a woman a precious gift when he asks her hand in marriage. My wife desired a diamond ring -- nothing gaudy, just nice and simple. I proposed, and when she said yes, we went out together and selected a diamond and a ring.
Now, you can either go to your local mall diamond store, and get ripped off, or you can go to the big city, find the jewelry district, and get yourself a high quality stone for less than half the price of the mall. You might be buying into the folly, but at least you're being sensible about it.
The final thing I have to say is that I got my money's worth out of that purchase. Every time I see my wife wearing that ring, I see how happy she is, I remember our wedding day and how happy I was. It may all be redicilous, but that's what most human behaviour is anyway.
'nuff said.
National Geographic did a hugh article in March called Diamonds, The Real Story. Sadly, almost all precious stones fall under the symbol of Deadly Love Token. The article not only points out how people are just killed for even looking like they took a diamond from a Diamond Cartel, children are mutilated to show warning signs. As a single female, I like the look of diamonds, but if I'd rather it be purchase from somewhere where someone didn't die to get it to the market. I'd rather see a token of love shared be more unique then the big Rock. I don't want a Deadly Love Token.
These are just my thoughts, and I'll probably be a hypocrit when that day comes...
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
She's the one wearing it, not you. Sure, it's your money (right now), but it's always going to be her finger it's on, not yours. My wife didn't want a diamond. She picked out a nice corn-blue sapphire at Tom Shane ("which one do you like least?"). Emeralds are nice, but they're fragile. Stick to something hard, like diamonds or sapphires/rubies.
I'm still trying to get my girlfriend the One Ring.
It's the only thing that seems fitting, since I already call her.. my prescioussss.....
Well for those of you who have a few moments to surf you may want to run some searches for synthetic russian diamonds. It turns out some russkie found a way to make flawless synthetics rather inexpensively. Well when debeers heard about it they spent millions to find a way to differentiate em from natural diamonds for their marketing engine. Well it turns out that if you expose the synthetics to incredibly high amounts of UV light it fluoresces...but other than that they are flawless perfect diamonds. Unfortunately, I do not know how to obtain them so happy surfing to see if you can find out more.
You have it easy, that advertising campaign never arrived here, and here, the engagement ring is almost allways a simple and pure gold ring.
Fascinating article, but if you look at the bottom you'll see that it says:
Copyright © 1982 by The Atlantic Monthly Company.
I wonder what the situation is now. They've clearly succeeded in keeping a lid on the market for the last 20 years.
It does seem quite shallow for a woman to expect a diamond ring. Even though it's a symbol of your union and love, its value does not represent the value of your marriage.
FWIW, my wife and I exchanged simple gold bands. We used the money that we saved for a downpayment on a house. It seemed like a much more sensible thing to do.
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
Most jewelers will rip you off and charge you mand thousands for rings worth only hundreds... LA and New York have jewelry districts where competition drives down prices to close to wholesale and you can save more than your plane ticket cost. Make it a special trip with your sweetie...
Certain US based charities have been fronts for funding terrorism as well...
Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
it is a thing all men have to go thru. The only thing that matters is that the woman LIKES the fucking rock. We all know that we are getting screwed. But women are superfical and inscure. The ring MAKES them feel special. It doesn't matter how many people died, how many seira lonei lost limbs or their lives or how many children are in slave labour for the ROCK. ps: not buying the ring is one sure way of getting the woman to leave you.
You are screwed dude, there is no way around it.. Yes its sucks and is a waste of money and might be financing bad people, but this is a battle I assure you you will never win. Suck it up.
I'm still in high school. But I keep giving my gf these rings made out of dollar bills that she LOVES. There's a site somewhere that tells you how to make them, I forget the URL. Anywho, IF I ever did propose to her, I'd prolly propose with a dollar bill ring. But....then I'd prolly bust out the real deal. Yeah, there's really no two ways about it, you have to get a diamond. Sorry, bucko.
I belong to the ______ generation.
If you're not going to buy a diamond because of the immoral things that went into producing that diamond, you're going to have to start reconsidering a *lot* of your purchasing decisions.
;)
Get off your high horse and get her what she wants. Besides, she's a woman; don't they always get what they want anyway?
Eric
My wife and I have custom matching wedding rings in white gold; this is admittedly almost a necessity for me (I'm 6'4" but wear a 7 1/2 ring. I have spider fingers.)
Neither of us are particularly impressed by white diamonds, about the only ones you can get regularly. (We both loved the Colorado golden diamonds we saw - but De Beers will only let them sell something like ten a year.) But we both collect gems and minerals...
So, my ring has an alexandrite in it (and no, it's a real one, not a lab-grown modified sapphire) and hers has a tsavorite (green garnet; looks like emerald but brighter and not brittle like emerald).
And yeah, they cost us more than a month's salary... but unlike diamonds, our stones are actually worth it.
Sig broken, watch for
Those two words make any self-respecting jeweler cringe, but no one but a jeweler will ever know. If your wife shares your values but wishes to conform to conventention she'll agree with you on this one, if not buy Canadian.
Minds get scrambled like eggs, abused and erased when you live in a brain storm
Buy one from an estate sale, from an elderly aunt, from an antique dealer. Have a jeweler examine it and give you an idea of its quality.
It'll be just as pretty, just as diamondy, you'll be poking the commercial diamond industry in the eye, and you'll be giving a new life to an old ring.
Yeah, I faced the same issues back when I got married. I'd been aware of all of the 'crappyness' surrounding the diamond trade for quite some time, so I had my reservations.
But the sad fact is: Those marketers have entrenched the 'symbolism' of the diamond very, very, deep into our society. Women really do (understandably) want one - even after understanding the issues. There may be a few exceptions to this, but very few.
Also, we all know that when a lady gets engaged all of her friends, associates, family want to see the ring. Can you imagine having to get into a big political discussion every time it's shown? How tiring! - Even if you are commited to the cause... somepeople just aren't even worth trying to explain it to!
Not having the deep desire of her heart, and causing all of these tiring explanations are not what I wanted to give to the love of my life...
I finally the decided the best thing to do was a compromise. We got a ring with a quite small (i.e. 1/5 carrot) diamond in the center, but the beauty of the ring is made up with bagget Saphires that look rather stunning surrounding the bright diamond. So people look at it and say "Wow, that's pretty" instead of something like "Wow, that's a big diamond". The diamond is just there as a visual enhancement, and to keep people from exclaiming "What! No diamond?"
With this approach, we only have to get into a political discussion if we feel like it at the time, and we only made a relatively small ($200) contribution to the diamond cartel.
Before we got married, my wife worked on 'jewlers row' in Philadelphia, grading diamonds for a living. She knew all the politics, all the fake costs, and considers DeBeers more evil than I do Microsoft.
When we got engaged, she designed a platinum ring with a blue saphire as the main stone.
She is ecstatic with it, because EVERY time she wears it out (maybe 2-3 times a month) SOMEONE comments about how pretty and unusual it is.
...diamonds have no resale value. Naddah. Zilch
If that's the case, quit whining and click here to stick it to the sellers.
-ez
I got my wife 1.4 carats of Diamond Love
she got me a Gibson SJ-200
Fair deal.
This
But a totally viable alternative to Diamond is Moissanite. Better than Diamond in almost every way (except hardness, and even there it's pretty damn close). Check out: How Stuff Works or the manufacturer.
If you're worried about the resale value of an engagement ring, I think you have bigger problems. :)
I did the diamond thing when we were first married. Big rock in a big setting, stuck out like a zit on Prom Night. We did it because we didn't know any better and it was what was expected of us.
After we had a kid she had to stop wearing it because she would spear him with it every time she picked him up. So, she started wearing a plain gold band. After a couple years, she decided she wanted a nice ring again, but she didn't want her wedding ring. She went out and bought a better band where the stones didn't stick up and she used zirconia. Her rationale is that only she will know and she would rather spend the money on a minivan than a f*#%ing diamond.
When you are young and in love you do stupid things like spending $5000 on a diamond. When you are older and your relationship takes on a more comfortable feel, you look at the DeBeers ads and chuckle at how silly it all was. Then, you go out and buy a minivan.
So, buy her whatever feels right for you but don't invest too much sentiment in it. It's just a ring. But, don't forget to send her flowers every couple months and be sure to send them to her work where all the other women in her office can see them. Bring home her favorite ice cream when she calls and you can tell she's in the dumps. Rub her feet when she's pregnant. Those are the things that really show her you care.
</LECTURE>
IANAMC (I am not a marriage counselor), but am speaking from the perspective of a 22-year marriage that seems to still be working. This is a decision that needs to be made by two people, and your posting sounds a little one-sided.
As many people have pointed out, it is possible to get a diamond that you know did not come from one of the countries/mines that you object to. If you and she agree that the two of you want to buy a ring, explain that you feel strongly about the source of the stone and limit the choices. If she doesn't understand, to the point that you can't work something out, your marriage is apt to have bigger problems than a chunk of crystalized carbon.
If it's a financial thing and you're trying to avoid spending money that you think is a waste (a position taken by many posters), just keep in mind that it's about to become "our" money, not "yours" and "hers". More marriages fail over how to handle the finances than any other cause. My wife-to-be and I spent a lot of time exploring how each other felt about wealth and money and spending on different kinds of things before we got married.
I pointed out that an engagement ring on a man was unusual, but would be neat. Then she reminded me that traditional Claddagh rings serve for both engagement and wedding rings.
The traditional claddagh design has a heart, held by two hands, with a crown on top of the heart. I think this is also called the "Royal Claddagh". There is also a "Finnian Claddagh" that lacks the crown, for obvious reasons.
Claddagh rings date from 17th century Ireland. Worn on the right hand, heart facing out, the ring indicates that the wearer is available (I offer my heart to you). Worn on right hand with the heart facing inwards indicates that you are engaged. The Claddagh as a wedding ring is worn on the left hand with the heart facing inwards.
Both my lady and I have some Irish blood, and we like quaint old customs. [This was well before the renewed interest in things Celtic.]
The most common, and probably most traditional claddagh rings are all metal. We chose to have rings custom-made with gems in them.
My wife's ring is white gold; the heart is a ruby as red as blood. My ring is yellow gold, with an emerald as green as the forest.
Diamonds? Pah! Everybody has those.
Actually, my partner Vikki was not at all interested in a diamond. She doesn't find them attractive. What she wanted was a top-grade emerald, which is more beautiful in her eyes. The deep rich green-with-just-a-hint-of-blue is her color :)
:)
But if you're looking for a rare stone that's also pretty, and will certainly hold its value, try taaffeite Several of these gems have been found, as has a location for low-grade, not gem grade, material, but to date the source of gem-grade taaffeite remains undiscovered. It's far too rare to be used as a major source of terrorism funding
Lemon curry?
In which ethics is something worn according to convenience.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
First I'll start by saying I've been married for about 2 and a half years now. My engagement ring was silver with a an amethyst in it (purchased about 6 monthes after I proposed). My and my husband's wedding bands are silver band with a celtic knot pattern. All three rings cost together under $400. At the time I purchased them I was mostly just happy not to have the extra expense but now I'm also happy just for the nice simplicity.
As a chick with a brain I see shiny overexpensive rings as a worthless showoff. Most of them end up looking basically tacky. There are very few diamond with gold rings that I see and don't wonder what the person was thinking. In my opinion, anyone who demands one as a proof of love isn't worth the effort. It certainly isn't a good sign of the way you're viewed (walking wallet) or of the way you'll be viewed in the future (walking wallet/sperm donor/inept husband).
Of course, I end up avoiding friendships with most other females because they usually end up sounding shallow and frivalous so maybe my advice for dealing with "normal" women isn't great.
Kyrina
I'm childfree and kept my last name!
science has provided us with the wonderful opportunity to have things fabricated without the help of mother nature. this applies to diamonds as well. synthetic diamonds are not only less expensive, but they contain less flaws, have less color, and are more brilliant.
;-)
the merchant will do his/her best to convince you that mother natures version is superior and that she'll know the differance- or maybe she'll even look down on you for it. don't fret, though, because it's just a ploy to get your money.
believe me, she won't complain when she's dazzling her friends- making them wonder why their man couldn't get them a rock that shines like hers
some of the comments here about canadian diamonds have been bullshit. i used to work for a mining company that mined canadian diamonds. i worked at a diamond pit in NWT of Canada for a while too. Here are some facts: 1. the conditions on site are fanstastic compared to your average coal mine! you wouldnt complain. we even had internet access. 2. the majority of canadian diamond mines are owned and operated by non deBeers interests. 3. the majority of diamonds from these mines are sorted and sold through Belgium and prices are regulated by deBeers interests, but no money goes to deBeers. i dont think these diamonds are lasered with the polar bear. 4. the rest are sold directly to the canadian market and get the polar bear lasered on the edge. and yes, they are the higher quality diamonds and typically very expensive! And as for my opinion: $1500 is my limit for a diamond ring. Thats what my wife got and she loves it :-)
j.
Buy an antique ring. That's what I did. I bought a Victorian ring with 9C diamonds. It wasn't very expensive, and it has history and class. Forget retail value, this is for life, right?
Simply don't get married. It's a scam to start with, you don't need it and it's a freaking life insurance for whoever will whine louder when the party is over. Remember, there's no divorce. Forget what they told you, divorce is not easy and you'll be stuck paying alymony for the rest of your life to a person that you hate.
Think I'm exagerating ? No, I'm just one of the 50% -60% of people that have been involved in this scam. Give her a ring if you feel like it but don't do it because of the rules of engagement. The worst think you can do in life is to act like a puppet for somebody else profit. There's no user manual for life, write your own !
I just got married less than 2 months ago. LIke a lot of people, I have a thing against diamonds. To me they are boring. I prefer coloured stones. Much nicer. When I proposed to my wife I gave her an amethyst that I had carved into a heart. She liked this way more than a boring diamond.
:)
If you really want to get a diamond I suggest that you look at Canadian diamonds. They are mined in non-terroist conditions and are a bit more unique. And lots of them have a kewl little polar bear etched onto the girdle of the diamond.
You're not lost if you don't care where you are.
some of the best wedding andd engagement rings i've seen had no diamonds. they were made to suit the person they were for and had special meaning for both parties. that said, if you have issues with monopolies or conflict diamonds, buy from a 'clean' source. http://www.argylediamonds.com.au/
Use this as an opportunity for marriage practice. Tell your beloved your thoughts about the question, including the fact that you're not sure what you would prefer. Ask her to read some of the stuff you've read, and let her think about it. If she decides she needs a diamond, because of upbringing, or childhood dreams, or whatever, do it, using some of the less unsettling purchasing options (antiques, canadian, etc). If she doesn't, go out and either alone, or together, pick out a wonderful engagement ring that she can be happy to wear forever.
This is precisely what I did with my then future fiancee, and current wife. We talked about it, and she actually turned out to share my unease about the production and marketing of diamonds. So, we spent a day in town, looking at rings, until she found one she wanted, and we bought it. It was a very good sign, I think, that we were able to talk, and agree, and act as a couple.
Buy the frickin diamond. I bought my wife one, even back when I was making about 12K/year. If you're worried about resale value, you shouldn't be getting married in the first place. Cough up a buck ya cheap bastard.
Kiss my bass.
Available from http://www.qvc.com. Why not look in the clearance section and save loads of money :-).
I offered my gf that I'd buy her a crap engagment diamond ring from overstock.com for $900 and give her $3000 cash to spend on anything (clothing, kitchen ware, classic movies, anything she like to have). She rejected and still want something I can't afford from Tiffany's.
Love is not diamonds!
Love is getting your simple, gold wedding bands at a pawn shop for $15 and a Super Nintendo.
Repeat after me:
I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.
I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.
I want to get laid often, I will buy a diamond.
Blog,Twitter
Other kinds of crystals look more exotic, and some more beutiful than a diamond. Plasma crystals, and silicon cristal for example
likely any woman you try this on will instantly identify you as a cheap SOB looking for an excuse to not have to buy one. Sadly, I'd have to agree.
I've got one word for you:
Ebay.
That's where I got my fiance's ring.
I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
[I am not a jeweler, I am a Jewelers son, I dont know everything on this topic, heres what I know]
Diamonds arent that rare, its the fact that more people are buying them and thyre being released slowly to raise the prices.
When a Fiance buys a ring for his future wife, he isnt buying the ring for her, hes buying the ring for her mother, her sisters, and her girlfriends.
That is one of the ways that those close to his future wife will judge him. Thats why the purchase is so significant.
-Steve
Do what I did. Buy your diamond at an antique or estate jeweler. You can get the ring brand-new elsewhere if you like. I got the whole ring at my local antique and estate jewelery dealer and my fiance said it was "perfect." I don't think I could hope for more than that.
I am ignoring the pill because it's irrelevant. The reason I don't cheat on my intended is not because I might get caught, it's because I believe it is wrong. The pill has nothing to do with that decision. So yeah, the human race as a whole might still be sorta confused about these new factors, but individuals need not be.
As far as gay marriages go, I don't understand the brouhaha. I'd be happy to have the law changed so that there are no tax considerations to marriage...I don't think it's appropriate for the State to get involved in what goes on in a bedroom, whether you're gay or straight. At that point, gay couples could put rings on each other's fingers, say "we're married!" and go on about their business. Everybody's happy.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
This comment has two parts. Feel free to ignore the first part if you think astrology is bunk.
First, according to Hindu Sidereal astrological principles, only approximately half of the population can or should wear diamonds. For the other half of the population, wearing a diamond may cause health problems, relationship problems, problems with children, and/or problems in other facets of life. The determining factor here is the sidereal ascendant or rising sign.
My wife's ascendant indicates that a diamond would be detrimental.
Second, I bought my wife a Star Ruby as an engagement ring. She loves the attention she gets from having a unique non-traditional engagement ring.
Did I save any money? Mind your own business!
The joke is broken because pics.steakandcheese.com have changed their graphics so that they all redirect to a tiny animated gif icon. Here is proof-- try clicking full size on any of these humorous pictures and you will get the anigif. Sorry, debeers.jpg wasn't indexed by the google spider so I didn't get the joke either :( Hey Foxman98, can you pull it out of your cache and put it up on a geocities or something?
Thank god, in my country diamond rings are for rappers and drug dealers in second class Hollywood Movies.
If I brought my gf a diamond ring she'd throw it at my face and tell me to find some lame bimbo who's impressed by "horteradas" (Anyone know the translation for that??? - hint: it's Spanish....)
My impression of diamonds is that they are cold and hard and all too easy to lose. I don't even get a good vibe from them. I would much rather have a piece of jewelry that I actually like and feel comfortable with and wouldn't mind losing too much. That's why most of mine consists of "hippy jewelry" like wooden beads and turqoise and silver native american pieces.
The only true tradition I care about is that of a ring. I don't care what the decoration is; as long as beginning meets end symbolizing the eternity of love, it's the proper trinket.
a prophet on the burning shore
My wife had some diamonds left to her from a necklace of her grandma's. We got the biggest, got someone to design the ring, and paid someone to make it.
Okay, my wife used to work at Cartier and so knew goldsmiths and jewellery designers, but this is one good way of avoiding the mess. If diamonds are forever, then inherit them from grandparents.
Alternatively, use anything else. Diamonds exist in abundance, but DeBeers restrict the supply. There are far more cost-effficient stones and you can make rings out of yellow gold, white gold, pink gold, platinum, or silver.
You probably perpatuate more human rights abuses buying your foreign-made shirt to save a few bucks.
my suggestion is to find an up and coming jeweller who makes really beautiful one of a kind rings that could well become truly valuable over time. if you can give her something beautiful that no other woman will have, that is adequate proof of how special she is to you. you can avoid the whole diamonds debate altogether, or maybe get an antique stone from your family or hers reset in a new ring.
if you ever watch that pbs show antique roadshow, you see that a lot of the really valuable items are those from master craftsmen of a century or so ago who really made a name for themselves with a unique style. that's the kind of thing i'd shoot for.
I'm female, but don't think diamonds are the end all and be all (for all the above mentioned reasons). My suggestion: find an excellent artistic craftman jeweler and let your girlfriend help design her own ring which can then be custom made - a one of a kind.
My wife loves her diamond ring, it will be passed on to future generations, hopefully, but I also know someone who bought his fiancee a used Toyota LandCruiser, and she takes him off-roading with her in her new baby. Costs about the same...
man rtfm
Hmm, I don't see how the cat isn't going to call in just because the seat is down, or how it's any more likely it won't fall in.
:-)
Related story:
My mum has a cat that can both drink from *and* urinate it the toliet (I have seen it do both, but not at the same time).
Somehow I think I would be more impressed if it only ever did one of these things
I recently got engaged...
:-) I just had to get it resized at the jewelers...
When looking for a "diamond" we went for cubic zirconia... most people cant tell anyways.
In the end, my great grandma had given this diamond ring to my mom. I gave her that. It's not worth a lot but has that "its been in the family for 50 years" heirloom quality. And it didn't cost a penny
I didn't even bother with a ring. Instead, I spent about 14 months making 1001 origami paper cranes. The japanese tradition is that each crane brings you a little luck, and that 1000 of them will grant you a wish. So I learned how to fold one and went at it. I would order paper as I needed it from all sorts of different places, with the japanese imported paper being the most beautiful. After I was done, i took the last one, had it electroplated in silver and put in a beautiful custom box. I presented that to her when i proposed, telling her the wish i had earned was hers as well. I figured that the labor and time costs were easily worth the cost of a diamond, so it was equal in value, and a hell of a lot more meaningful. Now i can make a paper crane in my sleep.
Well, being a girl myself, I don't really dig diamonds...sure they're pretty and all that shit, but so's safety glass.
and you know, as far as I've heard, no terrorist have been funded with bus terminal material money.
I'm not sure that makes sense, but my point is that who cares what you wear on your friggin finger, isn't it more important what you feel for the person your with? If your engagement ring lasts longer than your feelings for someone, you done gone wrong somewhere.
-binky
I know that if/when he proposes, he isn't really going to want to drop "three months salary" on a clear rock. Would he do it anyway? Maybe. Would I want him to? Not particularly. And I have my reasons... which should come to some relief to him :)
As I said to him, " Almost every engaged girl has a diamond ring. Why not go for something different and unique? Our relationship isn't the same as everyone elses, and I wouldn't want my ring to be, either."
And finally, it really is the though and meaning that counts. Don't forget that.
Anyone out there agree with me?
you can buy:
canadian diamonds
australian diamonds
if not,
how about manufactured diamonds?
I ran into the same ethical problems. Then my mom gave me her first engagement and wedding bands to give to my wife. The ring is more beautiful than anything I could find new these days. Yeah people still suffered, to get the diamond into that ring, but by re-using an existing heirloom, I saved the world some suffering, gave my wife a beautiful ring, and the bloody conglomerate didn't get one dime of my $$.
If you don't have a family member who can help, look for a used ring.
For an engagement ring, I gave my wife a gold ring with three stones on it: an amethyst, a sapphire and a citrine. She feels much the same was as I do about diamonds, and refuses to wear them. She and I have been married for four years now.
www.wavefront-av.com
A girl I was dating a few years ago was into sportbikes as much as I am. One night at a bar the subject of engagement rings came up, and I expressed my belief that they're a waste of money. They just stay there on your finger and don't do anything. So I told her if we ever got engaged that I'd want to buy her something more useful, like a motorcycle.
And you know what? She *loved* the idea.
We're just friends now and live 800 miles apart, but as time goes on, it becomes more likely that she's going to be the one. It's probably 50-50 now, or at the outside, 1 in 3. And guess what? She agrees with that, too.
So next time you get engaged, consider buying her a Ducati instead of a useless rock.
I got around this problem by purchasing a vintage (1920'ish) ring.
The diamond is hand-cut, from the same era.
You can find the best deals on this stuff by finding mobile dealers of estate jewelry (I got this one at the city-wide garage sale).
As a bonus, it appraised (GIA certified etc etc) for 2x the purchase price, which means I got it for not much over wholesale.
Buying diamonds retail is stupid.. Use your head.
Check out polygon.net, or wholesalers on the web, and purchase a mount somewhere else.
just my 2c.
I suppose it's also that I'm much, much poorer than most employed people who frequent slashdot. My husband has no job at all, and I don't earn much. Any expensive jewelry purchase *would* be paid for by me. (Although if you're marrying the girl, her money is your money, right? So essentially, you're both buying it, as long as she doesn't dump you before the wedding, in which case The Rules obligate her to give the ring back.)
I can't imagine spending two months' salary on anything. I earn just about exactly enough to break even, month-to-month. How are people in my situation expected to afford a diamond according to the "traditional" rules of engagement? Run up nice big credit debts? Gee, that's forward-thinking.
People who have savings and/or earn enough to put some aside are in a slightly different position, but still... two months? Who pays the rent for those two months?
If you -can- spare the money and it -does- really matter to your girlfriend... then yes! Give her the ring she dreams of! Make her happy. You want to make her happy, don't you?
If you don't have the money, and she gives you some line about how much her love is "worth" based on the ring, then why are you putting up with this girl? Clearly, she doesn't give a damn about you or your relationship. There are better women out there.
Luckily I was engaged in the US and being Australian I went back to Australia and picked out a beauty of a full sprectrum Opal. My missus to be and I had checked out prices on diamonds in the US and were shocked and decided something unique was in order. I had the ring custom built for cheaper than anything on the market with Australian dollars (57 cents US at the time). 4 years later she still gets comments on how cool it is!
I told my wife i'd buy her a diamond engagement ring if she would buy me a big screen engagement TV. All of my friends think it is a great idea.
Now I will admit, I 'balked' a bit at buying a ring.. for a second or so. My wife is a bit of a femininist (so she says...) and has pointed out that a ring does look a lot like "and this is how much I am worth to someone else"... Anyhow some thoughts: A diamond isn't a BAD investment: that is -A diamond does not drastically depreciate (like a car or a computer does) -It is small and portable -It is relatively liquid (ie you can sell them most anywhere if you had to...) -Many places will buy a diamond. Now this will probably remain true for quite a while, since no one seems to be planning a 'raid' or 'invasion' of south africa to 'break up' the 'evil cartel' that fixes the prices. That said, I will say that I did buy a ring, but I will also admit a bit of a non-traditional approach, and let me first tell you why; I knew that she would be looking at this ring for years potentially, so I wanted her happy with it. The approach was more or less discuss budgetary limits for a while, then we went looking to see what sorts of things she liked. Well, we didnt find anything we loved, but she had a good idea of what she wanted, which was good, because I will admit i didn thave a fork()ing clue ;)
So eventually we contacted a diamond merchant (see if any of your friends or family know one... you can save a BUNCH this way!)... Having a general idea of what she wanted, there were about three or four PAGES (at about 100 settings per page) of 'standard' (ie not custom-made) bare settings to choose from. (remember: real hackers are pragmatic: custom steel is nice and sexy and all that, but gerber made some darn nice blades for a lot less ;). Having chose the setting, then you can go pick out the stone(s) you want.
I can tell you that I am suprised, spending money on clarity can make a diamond look much more impressive. I can also tell you that truely good (deep color) emeralds are MORE expensive than a diamond of the same weight. (and much more delicate)... Anyhow, to make the story short, she is happy with the ring, and loves it (everyone who sees it also likes it and thinks it is unique).. and we took a similar approach for her wedding band (which incidentally cost LESS than my band, which was stock from a jeweler (37-40% discount negotiated!), and has no stones (but does have fancier 'metalwork).
To sum it up, She's happy, I'm happy, the ring is still worth more than what I paid for it, and probably will be for a while. Meanwhile my used jeep is worth about 1/3 the value of what I paid for it (used) 3 yrs ago, and I dont even want to think about the computer hardware that I have bought in the past 18 mos, or what it is worth now! Try communicating, it may suprise the heck out of you (humans are pretty bad at shared memory interfacing, as a generalization, but you might find a good mentalist who can help you!)... I'd bet that she would love a diamond, but that she might not object to having some more choice over what she gets. (IIRC arent some women buying themselves large caliber stones just because?)
I've read a lot of individual opinions, but how many have actually tried something besides a diamond? After I proposed to my wife we talked about rings, and my wife actually wanted something different. We went to a jewelry store and after talking with the salesman decided to get a "traditional" band but with a sapphire in the place of a diamond. The sapphire was a good choice for us because: 1. It is a fairly hard gemstone that can withstand the rigors of being mounted in a ring. The salesman (who happens to be my cousin) advised against some of the other options we explored based on durability. 2. My wife liked it. Notice that I didn't mention price as one of the criteria. The Sapphire happened to cost much less than a diamond of anywhere near the same size, but this was more of a convenience than a determining factor. If my wife had wanted a diamond, we would have gotten one. Since we have been married, my wife has had numerous compliments on her less traditional choice (more traditional if you look beyond the most recent century). My wife and I have now been married for a little over three years. We have 2 children. We have a mutually happy and fulfilling relationship. And, we did it all without buying a diamond.
I don't want a diamond, I'm not getting a diamond (bf says he was already thinking of a different gem), if you don't like that, too bad. :P
as for the 'flaky' comment... I'm not marrying for money, twit!!
See what she wants after you propose to her. Tell her what you can afford and stick to your guns. If she's gonna be greedy, its s sign she'll be that way for everything and you'll always be broke. BTW, when my husband proposed he didn't have the ring in hand. In fact, when we went to look at rings I chose the smallest one I could get (1/5 carat) and I rarely wear mine because I prefer to just wear my 10K $30 gold band. Not all women are materialistic.
My only advice for you would be to talk it over with your girlfriend. She might even agree with you. DO NOT JUST NOT BUY HER A DIAMOND AND HOPE SHE DOESN'T NOTICE! That would be relationship suicide.
As a not-very-techie girl (I started reading slashdot so I could understand what my boyfriend was going on about) I can say I don't really want a diamond after finding all this out.
http://pics.steakandcheese.com/debeers.jpg
=)
Just like Budwiser =)
I *NEVER* thought I'd see the day when Ed Parker and diamond rings showed up in the same story on /. Wow, I think I've had one too many Dew's today, I MUST be seeing things...
Got to admit though, the man WAS a genius...
Is there anyone here who even remotely know's his ass from his elbow about good jewellery and or is actually a jeweller?
,emerald's, saphire's,white gold and what not but I have yet to see one well informed comment disscussing what makes a stone more or less valuable , the different kinds of diamonds,(red diamonds from russia , yellow diamonds etc )and the different jewellery brand's ,(cartier for example) ,and there workmanship / prices .All I see is a bunch of geek's talking about something they have relatively no knoweledge about .
Every one is throwing there ten cent's around talking about eithical diamond's from canada
_________________________________________________
http://www.moissanite.com/getting_engaged.cfm
- No Sig for you!
I'm not sure if this has been covered, and I'm sure as hell not going to wade through comments in the four-digit range, but there are a couple of ways to get your money's worth.
.75 caret, 1 caret, .5 carets, like nature and jewelers worked on a rational number system. But people go in and want to buy the nice round numbers. So there is less demand for the odd chickens... you might be able to get the .73, for example, for quite a bit less than the .75.
One is to buy a nonstandard caret. You hear
I'm sure there are others.
-TBHiX-
My wife asked me to marry her, so I didn't have to even worry about this topic. What a surprise! She gave me a necklace she designed that is really nice, it has a peacock obsedian stone in a neat white gold fixture. It's appropriate for me, seeing as I used to wear various necklaces for a long time.
But really, we had talked about the engagement ring years beforehand at some point when it came up in a random conversation. We had agreed that I would take her on some kind of a fancy trip instead of giving her an engagement ring, which is perfect because she really loves to travel. I have yet to follow-through on that because I'm having trouble finding jobs after graduating, but will some day (soon hopefully) when I have a few $$ set aside.
I'd say screw tradition and make your own tradition, unless she really wants one and tells you so. It means so much more to us to have our own symbols of our commitment to eachother. The wedding bands were custom designed by a friend, and really suit us well.
Just my $0.02, seeing as I was married this past July 6th..
__ No registration required to read this message. They did it in the Matrix.
When my wife and I first got engaged, I was a starving software entrepreneur. Now I'm just a hungry software entrepreneur. Nonetheless, at the time there was no way I could afford a nice diamond engagement ring. (You know the rule about how many times you monthly income you should spend? I got news -- anything times zero is still $0!)
My mother showed me the way out. It so happened that she had my (paternal) great grandmother's wedding set, which my father had given her when they got married (they're now divorced). She gave me this set (paltinum and diamonds) to use.
If I were superstitious, I'd be weird about it (divorce and all) but I'm not. We make our own fate.
My wife loves her rings, and gets many compliments about the beautiful antique style. She's pretty darn sure she's never going to run into someone else wearing the same set.
After we had some repairs done on it last year, we got an appraisal and some history research. The stone is over 100 years old, and is a very high quality rock.
I think it's cool to use a family heirloom, sorta more romantic than going to Tom Shane.
No matter how you rationalize it, if you buy a diamond, Canadian, from DeBeers, estate sale, or otherwise, you are perpetuating this apparent tradition.
So while you think you got a got deal, and are not supporting the diamond cartels, you in fact are. Every time another women looks at your fiancees ring, the apparent traditional will be reinforced in another persons mind.
I think of it like this, and can't believe I haven't seen it anywhere else yet.
You can run around downloading warezed copies of Windows 2000 and Microsoft Office, and declare that you feel good about not giving a god damned penny to those evil Microsoft people. But every time you download and use a Windows product, every time you accept an emailed Microsoft Word document, every time you tell people you use Windows, every time you don't tell people your believes about why Microsoft is bad but use Windows anyway, during all these situations you are further perpetuating the Microsoft monopoly. And I see diamonds in the exact same way.
I proposed to my girlfriend 4 years ago with a nice blue topaz that cost in the range of $600. There were two reasons for this: 1) I did not have a whole lot of money and 2) I figured that it would be best to select a ring together so that she could get something she really liked looking at.
As it turns out, she is still teasing me about getting a diamond, and she does have to explain an awful lot why she doesn't have a "diamond."
I felt bad for a while, but then she lost the blue topaz engagement ring and she was surprisingly upset. I have never seen her so upset in the 5 years I have known her. You would have thought someone close to her had died. It seems sentimental value can be attached, no matter what type of ring it is. And that is a very good thing!! (Eventually, especially if the Internet start-up I have been doing work for gets funding, we will look into getting a real diamond).
There are already so many post that you proabably won't see this, and it has proabably already been pointed out. BUT..... There are jewlery stores that will give you a certificate or make you keep the reciept. With this, and if they have a policy in place, they will take the diamond (ring in your case) back. They will give you the full price you paid if you put it towards some other more expensive peice of jewlery. Think of it as trading up. They will give you a certain percentage if you just want money.
You will probably have to try and find a local store. In my experience the jewlery "chains" don't do anything like this.
I had some of the same feelings you did. I hate the commercial diamond business myself, So I originally went out and got an antique Opal ring. This was met with only Mild satisfaction so I regrouped. I didnt want to buy new, supporting brutal foreign regimes so I hit Ebay. I found another antique ring With a small Diamond and 4 large emeralds around it, my wife being Irish, this was great. She is the envy of her friends with big vacant looking rocks, this had a past, was totally different from anything being made today and I got it for dirt cheap!!!! And its all real too. (best part, I breathed a BIG sigh of relief there at the jewelers.)
No you didn't say the US started the slave business. You implied that all white people in the US owned slaves, and that no other people did.
As others pointed out, only a few rich white people in the south owned slaves. I just filled in the rest of the picture. In Africa, you didn't have to be rich and white to own slaves, just victorious and black.
As for the colonial empires argument, slavery existed in Africa long before white people ever went there. So don't blame Europeans for that too. Sure they were bastards that bought human lives like cattle. But those people would have been slaves one way or another. That is what tribal warfare was like back then.
By the way, I am not from the south, and am hardly an apologist for them. I just don't care much about people that let themselves be held as slaves. White or black. They had the choice of being a good little slave, or escaping and facing death. Most chose to stay in chains. Would you choose that? Would you allow it for your wife or kids?
For the future, I'll have to talk to her. =^_^=
This sig no verb.
At anyrate, we went shopping for quite a while for a ring, and one thing is for certain, all the mall-type jewellry stores are crap. It will take you about 3 or 4 stores to realize that they all sell pretty much the same stuff (albeit at wildly fluctuating prices), and are about as ethical as a used car salesman.
But, they will give you ideas. What you do next is find a nice, independantly owned jewelry store. These will always be run by a real jeweler. Explain what you want, and he will show you examples of what he has, both available on the shelves and pictures of things he has made. Just about everything was nicer, and a lot more original than the same old ones we saw in every other stores. Custom made items are the same price as things on the shelves.
In our case, what we wanted was pretty close to something he had, so we used that as a starting point, and then described some changes. About a week later, I went in and picked up a beautiful, custom made ring. The centre stone was my girlfriends choice, a sapphire. For added irony, the sapphire actually has a real history (not a marketed one) as an engagement stone, and they are quite a bit rarer than diamonds.
So, by getting it custom made, we got exactly the ring we wanted, at a very good price. It is an original, so it doesn't look like everyone elses ring out there. With a owner-operator type store, you are supporting your local economy. We also get free cleanings and sizings for ever (OK, assuming they don't go out of business which isn't likely).
My other piece of advice if you are going to buy a diamond is to go to http://www.bridaltips.com/diamond.htm for the best guide I found when I still thought she wanted a diamond.
Engineers arn't boring people, we just get excited about boring things.
So what are your ethics based on?
Surely not something as mundane as getting a little poontang?
Personally? I would have killed my husband had he wasted his money on some cookie cutter diamond ring. You know there are vaults of diamonds around the world, that if released would render diamonds in the price range of sterling silver! (I do jewelry as well as geek things =) Do something nice. Get a Yogo Saphire from Montana for her, or a Padparash saphire. something really cool, and unique, like her ;-)
Of course, I'm also one of the few women who ENCOURGE her husband to run cat5 through the house, and WANTED the new DVD player, so your milage may vary...
Dory
I have been aware of the social, political, and environmental implications of the diamond trade for a long time. Before we got married, I think my husband was struggling with more of the sheer expense (for nothing of any real value) issue when he finally came to me and asked.
This conversation really happened, and we are quite happily living for the fourth year in our brick, two-storey home, with a fine swing on the porch. It doesn't have a garage as yet, but last month it appraised at $32,000 more than the purchase price. With equity like that, we could build a garage and a data haven as well.
And the last time i checked, diamonds don't have spare rooms that can be used as anything, let alone converted into a nursery when life takes an unexpected turn.
Chances are that if your lady has sense enough to like a geek, then she has sense enough to value something other than a diamond. I advise asking; you might be surprised at the answer.
Love and peace,
heidi
Actually, I got engaged to my girlfriend with a ring she already had and wore frequently. Then, we went to the store to pick out her _real_ engagement ring. She and I agree on a lot of things politically, and we both hate DeBeers, that's for sure. They kill way the hell too many people. So, we got a lab-created Sapphire ring that was really nice and only about $120 with insurance.
:) A Sapphire does that just as well as a diamond.
I think the symbol is way more important than the stone. It matters more that you give her a ring and she wears it on her left ring finger than that it has a diamond in it. Really, the purpose of an engagement ring is as a promise and as a symbol to people who might hit on her that she's taken.
A Geek friend of mind suggested that i might be able to help out here. I know this has been a very long discussion. Im not here to be a know it all, just to maybe help answer some questions. I've been a gemologist since 1983 and a store owner/Diamond broker since 1993. Just so you know, Im not an Industry RAH RAH guy. There is a lot of BS in this industry, but if you know how to see through it, It's alot easier to get things done. If you guys have some specific questions I'll see what I can do to help.
no, next question
sorry, just had to add my post so this goes higher in the hall of fame.
It doesn't have to be a waste. You could take that beautiful tree, cut it up, let it dry, and then put it into your beautiful wood stove. Seriously, though, I agree that people shouldn't just throw out old Christmas trees. Dead trees, unlike dead flowers, are still quite valuable.
i got engaged about 4 yrs ago. it all went down hill... i ended up with the ring. i know how much i paid for it... tried to take it back to the jeweler and they laughed. I took it to a 'we buy jewelry' place. they offered me 10% of what i paid for it... i walked out. now i still possess this damn rock. i have offered it to my friends who are getting engaged, and everyone thinks there is some curse or something. so i wonder should i just just use the ring on the 'next girl' or just count it as a loss?
There is a school of thought that the market of a diamond as an engagement gift is one that was artificially created by the powers behind the global diamond cartel.
Just a couple of links to flesh out this point of view are here and here
http://www.russianlabdiamonds.com
And they have nothing to do with deBeers
At no point did I imply any such thing. Did you even read my post? Perhaps you are confusing it with stuff others have said in this thread. Read it again.
I made three points, and three points only:
1. Slavery was brutal and evil.
2. A lot of revisionists would have us believe otherwise.
3. Those people are full of shit.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Come on, throw these worthless rocks away and get your girl a really useful device: Alex Chiu immortality ring!
www.alexchiu.com
Just don't blame me when you become fed up with your wife after 150 years.
When I asked my wife to marry me, I gave her a big plastic blinking thing that she just loved. She still has it. Then we talked about what we would do for rings. We had a local jewlery artist create us an interconnecting 4 ring set. We each wore and engagement ring, then each added the other 'wedding band'. My wife has two small stones in hers - our birth stones. I decided to go stone less. It was never a thought in her mind to get a diamond. Thank my lucky stars. We now have something unique and supported a local artist.
veggie2u
gifts == attention, thinking about her when she's not around, appreciation
;) ).
Now, they don't HAVE to cost you two months' salary. They don't have to cost you anything. I've received short sweet emails, sappy ecards, a popular love song sung to me with my name inserted, all of which made me feel loved, thought about, and important. Granted, not everyone has the creativity or confidence to come up and follow through with such things - I know I don't.
Buying things is much easier. I've bought roses for my boyfriend more than once and had them sent to his office. He loved them everytime (although I doubt every guy out there would have, sometimes I think he's more of a girl than I am
Gifts are a special symbol, and rings in particular. Communication isn't always easy, especially communication of "feelings". A gift of something nice says that she is cared about and treasured. I don't think my boyfriend knows how much I wanted some token of his love after we had been dating for several months. I eventually "hinted" by sending him a link to a manufacturer of a 'one ring' replica from "The Lord of the Rings" (http://www.badalijewelry.com/tolkien.htm). He did get it for me, and I don't think he knows how much I treasure it.
It's not that I didn't know he loved me, I just wanted something from him that I could wear all the time to remind me of it. In high school, it was tradition to trade class rings (which is still done in my hometown, though I know the tradition has faded elsewhere). A ring is a symbol of commitment, and because of that it has the added bonus of fending off unwanted attentions from other guys.
As for the diamond, if you have an ethical problem, talk it over with her, she may not know about the issue. Who knows, maybe a "diamond" isn't that important to her, maybe she really likes purple and would rather have an amethyst anyway. My dad had to have Jif peanut butter and Oreo chocolate sandwich cookies, but with anything else, the cheaper versions were just as good (and better because they were cheaper). But DON'T try to pull a fast one on her by getting her a not-diamond and not telling her. Regardless of whether or not she craves diamond-bragging rights, if she finds out that it's not real and you didn't tell her, you've lied, and that's no way to ask a girl to marry you.
It's important to remember that girls are individuals and each is different, so there's no one piece of good advice you can give - you have to know your girl.
My cat's shit must be fucking the rarest stuff on earth because my dog keeps eating the stuff and hording it like it is fucking solid gold.
I'd *hate* to have a huge gaudy rock on my finger.
a nice, small, comfortable ring is much better 8-)
Symbols are worth whatever value you attach to them. The purchase of the diamond engagement ring is a symbol of the commitment you are making. If you don't believe that it represents your commitment (for many justifiable reasons), find something that does. If your girlfriend understands you, she'll appreciate the thought you've put into finding a substitute that truly represents what you feel. And if you don't subscribe to the symbol theory, remember that it is you choosing to purchase a gift for someone you love. Both the giver and receiver should find pleasure in it.
-- The strangest things seem suddenly routine - Hedwig and the Angry Inch
You bike to work? - Me too! Motors are for wimps! Diamonds are too, now that you mention it. My wife of 20+ years has a couple of gold rings for the wedding and engagement, but no stone. She balks at the idea of buying cut flowers. I think that's what first caught my eye. My frugal frau.
Propz to all the dead homiez.
Trollus_and_Cressida
Dude your real name is MintSlice? Your parents must have been truly a bunch of fucktards.
P.S. - You are a cheap sad sorry bastard...
and I'm lucky enough to have a fiance that likes designing rings :) last year he made some wedding ring designs in povray (www.povray.org iirc) for my sister and her fiance... dunno if they'll use any of them, but still, they weren't bad :)
diamonds are boring...
women do *not* all want diamonds!
mmkay?
the amount of idiots here that think all women are that shallow amazes me. it's a frigging rock. diamonds aren't even all that pretty, imho. I prefer sapphires and emeralds... *small* ones. it's a much better idea to spend the money on something more useful, like a honeymoon.
My wife had the same thoughts about a diamond ring as listed by other posts. :)
After some discussion her engagement ring is a 1969 Camero. She says it is better to have something she looks good in.
I've read a bunch of comments along the lines of "ethics about diamond-mining are all well and good, but you should ignore them in this instance", and I just wondered... unless you're a jeweller, when the heck else are you going to have any kind of opportunity to take a stand on the matter? Just how many diamonds do you think normal people buy? If you feel strongly about it, then not buying the diamond (or going for the afore-mentioned Canadian variety) is pretty much your only available avenue for protesting, IMHO.
Best to you!
Who would have thought a question about diamonds of all things would beat out The star fraction
I'm shocked.
I am ignoring the pill because it's irrelevant. The reason I don't cheat on my intended is not because I might get caught, it's because I believe it is wrong.
and education and society had no effect on your values, on your determination that it's wrong ?
The pill has nothing to do with that decision.
again, not directly on your personal decision, but on monogamy as a whole and it's effect on moral-values ( i.e. what's right/wrong in your society) the pill definately affects, and this in turn, like it or not, affects you.
IMHO, A person should not dispair of all moral issues and decisions because they are subject to historic, genetic, economic, and memetic influences. However, a person would be naive to accept them w/o questioning such influences, their origin and their affect on himself and others.
So yeah, the human race as a whole might still be sorta confused about these new factors, but individuals need not be.
see above, one should not be confused, but rather be skeptical and aware when making important decisions.
As far as gay marriages go, I don't understand the brouhaha.
My point was to give an example on how procreation-related technology (artificial insemination today, genetic modification tommorow) affects the relation between sex and procreation, whose most important manifestation is the institution of marriage (gay or hetro). It seems you have missed that point, perhaps due to me not being clear enough.
I'd be happy to have the law changed so that there are no tax considerations to marriage...I don't think it's appropriate for the State to get involved in what goes on in a bedroom, whether you're gay or straight. At that point, gay couples could put rings on each other's fingers, say "we're married!" and go on about their business. Everybody's happy.
again, you try to answer many questions I did not mention, imply or even am very interested in.
Working for necessity's mother.
I take responsibility for my determinations of what is right and wrong. I'm not going to believe what I believe just because I'm told to, and I'm not going to write off my principles just because I happened to inherit parts of them from my parents and teachers.
My beliefs are mine, their relationship to those held by society at large is coincidental and irrelevant to their importance to me. YMMV.
Certainly, technology is going to have a dramatic effect on procreation and, by extension on our society. But those effects are not deterministic (IE they don't force any given human to believe any certain way) and are therefore not relevant to any individual's choices about what is Right and Wrong.
I'm certainly not trying to impose my ideals on everybody...I'm nowhere near wise enough to do that. But my ideals belong to me and me alone, as yours belong to you and you alone. We may share certain tenets, and I may even inherit some from you (or vice versa) but each one of us must take ownership of SOME ideal in order for their life to be meaningful. If you're just the walking-around expression of a selfish gene, I don't think that's a very fulfilling existence. If you're a free-willed, free-thinking individual, unique in your own perspective and empowered to evaluate the world around you, (or even if you BELIEVE yourself to be such a creature), I feel like that's a much more powerful statement of one's life.
Up to you.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Here's a place where you should be able to get a discounted ring.
(Score: 5, Funny)
Sorry, just couldn't resist posting that at about comment number 2000. Please don't mod it as a troll.
I think diamonds are good and I support their purchase.
w00t
Americans. AMERICANS. Not USians you stupid moron. AMERICANS. We do NOT accept that label you want us to go by simply because there are other "North and South Americans" on this continent.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
It would be funnier if you spelled it like this:
-Nameles Speling Theif
I had tried posting this before, but I crashed and didn't feel like typing out all I said... since this thread has died down a lot, I'll be more likely to be herd now by the inquirer... Check this out for some mighty insightful reading. Might change your mind about buying this so called "rare" gem... Check it out here
I gave my wife an old green sapphire ring that had belonged to my mother. We were pretty tight for cash, and to be frank I thought diamond rings were something that everyone else did. So I gave her one of my Mum's old rings and she couldn't have been happy. Trust me she will be stoked enough just to be asked. And if she insists on diamonds, well start wondering why you're with her.
Erratically brilliant or brilliantly erratic, I just haven't figured out which yet!
By her the diamond or she'll be pissed off & disapointed, not matter how good your reasons are & no matter what she says.
That's all there is to it.
When we got engaged, my beloved geek was still finishing his thesis, didn't yet have a job. He said he wanted to wait until he had a real job to get my engagement ring, so he could afford something nicer than his research assistant salary could buy.
While I appreciated the sentiment, I told him I wouldn't wear an engagement ring unless he had a "Property Of" tattoo on his forehead, and some sort of device to show his net worth. They'd serve the same purpose.
The way I've seen most girls show their engagement ring to friends, family, coworkers, classmates--the flourishing, limp-wristed, out-stretched arm with greedy little smile and eyes bright with anticipation of the oohs and ahhs and envy--proves the ring has nothing to do with creating a loving, caring partnership, and everything to do with advertising human value in jewel form.
The engagement ring tradition, at least as manifested in southern university towns, is nothing more than a girl's way to show how much she "sold" for, bragging rights for finding a high-earner. By wearing this price tag when they are out together, the man gets to show how much he could afford to pay for a woman. I'm not sure how this sort of attitude is good for any relationship, no matter how shallow.
I didn't buy my fiance a diamond ring.
I followed the Irish tradition of buying her a Claddagh. Claddagh rings have a heart to symbolize love, hands to symbolize frendship, and a crown (optional) that symbolize loyalty.
Claddagh rings are worn different ways. Worn on the right hand with the heart pointing out means you are available; worn on the right hand with the heart pointing inward means you have prospects (e.g. engaged). Worn on the left hand with the heart pointed inward means you are married.
Not only am I so cheap not to buy the diamond engagement ring I'm so cheap that I'm making her use the same ring as an engagement and wedding band. I'm such a cad! Actually we both like the looks and symbolism of Claddagh rings. After I bought her one she bought one for me. We got ours at James Avery Jewlers; mine was custom since the ring we liked didn't come in men's sizes.
My fiance was smart enough to see through the diamond scam... she was adamant from the beginning that she preferred sapphires. (She dropped a few hints.)
On the other hand, it's all about making her happy. I was lucky enough to find a girl that hadn't pegged her happiness on an engagement stone, no matter what type. So it was easy to make her happy.
I never have frustrations, the reason is, to wit:
If at first I don't succeed, I quit!
The history of the ring is to compensate the wife for giving up her life.
Any self respecting women should have an issue with this.
I'm not sure which is the bigger marketing ploy, the pro- or con- side of the argument. Rings have been around longer than talking movies, and De Beers owns nearly the entire diamond market.
Reading about Conflict Diamonds, I find no great connection between buying an engagement ring and endangering kids in Africa. It sounds a lot like the "Eat your food, there are starving kids in Africa" argument. The first half of the sentence has nothing to do with the latter.
There is a greater liklihood, I think, that any given geek will work in a Mac-centric shop than that the purchase of their wife's ring will have supported an African terrorist group.
Yes, I feel for the people who suffer in Africa. What no convienient activism website or post offers, is a hard link between my wife's hand to one lost by a child in Africa. I would suggest, in absence of this evidence and in conjunction with verifiable fact that most diamonds on the retail market here in the US comes from de Beers, that the issue of the conflict diamonds in fact has little bearing on what choice I make for a ring.
I would hope that an educated group such as this would use the same 'assume nothing' approach to an issue as emotionally bound as this as it does to say, a Microsoft security alert.
#-#
Ad Astra Per Aspera
A rough road leads to the stars
I got a 2 carat rock for 60 percent of the appraised value. Go to several, I did see a lot of junk. Bring your finacee, after all see is the one that is going to be wearing it.
My wife told me long before we got engaged that she thinks diamonds are nothing special. She's far more interested in opals. So, she has an opal engagement ring. Some people have commented to us that opals are delicate, so the opal engagement ring is silly. Well, it's lasted 4 years so far.
For another possibility, some friends of mine bought a house together and they consider that their enagagement present. If a house doesn't represent a long-term commitment, what does?
My Grandma played the piano, and didn't like rings. (Too distracting while playing.) So when grandpa proposed, he gave her a piano.
My boss machined a ring for his wife. No expensive metal, but actually a decent bit of work. They've been married for (my guess) 30 years now, and have a great marriage.
If that's not enough, diamonds are not nearly as valuable as what they sell for. Their value is entirely percieved and is carefully controlled by DeBeers' stockpiling.
Personally, I'm an emerald fan. They are rarer than diamonds, cheaper, and cannot be reproduced by human means easily.
My girlfriend loved the emerald necklace I made for her. I bought a really nice but uncut emerald crystal, a nice mount and chain, and put it together with some silver solder and a pinhead worth of glue.
~Ben
Look, this all boils down to the person you're with. If you feel very strongly that a symbol of love shouldn't be created with someone else's suffering, then don't get such a thing. And if you feel that strongly about it, then your intended should damn well know you well enough to know that, if you're getting ready to marry. If, on the other hand, tradition and symbology is important to you and your love, then by all means get one. We (women, I mean) are not all cut out from the same mold. Whether or not a diamond is the right thing to buy depends entirely on who you're marrying.
Fer example: When my husband proposed, we were in the middle of house hunting. He checked the prices on diamonds, and gave me an origami ring that had "down payment +$1500" written on it. I still have it to this day. I thought it wonderful, because it meant he thought the home we would build together was more important than tradition. I agree. I know others who would have left in disgust.
Know the person you're proposing to, okay? Then it's hard to mess up.
you probably realized that the 2.5 to 4% of sales that are labeled "conflict diamonds" (surprise!) exactly corresponds to those that aren't part of the DeBeers cartel, which was the principal backer of the apartheid goverment in South Africa, has supported terrorism and organized crime around the globe for nearly a century, and has one of the most powerful monopolies in the world.
AFAIK no terrorist organizations currently are capable of producing synthetic diamonds. They are virtually identical to those dug out of the ground (minus the potential child/terrorist labor). Also you can get more varieties for a much more reasonable cost.
I'd have to agree that diamonds aren't worth their cost...but damn..they sure look pretty on me!
Thist stupid thing to do is to be engaged, second - is to buy diamonds for somebody. (buy her a frying pan, and let her know her place! :) )
He sucks goat cocks.
I just thought I would point out this link as I find it very on-topic for this thread:
2 6
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/26/diamonds0208
Ok. It seems the link was somehow tempered during the process of posting this...
2 6
Here is the link:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/26/diamonds0208
She should dump your ass for even questioning it. You suck. Cliff, you are clearly gay.