MacOS X != FeeBSD + Aqua It is a hybrid kernel called XNU which combinines the Mach 3.0 kernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University with COMPONENTS from the FreeBSD kernel. XNU is an acronym for X is Not Unix. Want proof? Many useful UNIX commands WILL NOT WORK in the toyish OS X command line interface (wildcard-while not a command- comes to mind, but theres lots more)
You see, if M$ can be $ucce$$ful in pu$hing this onto the public under the guise of beeing imparitive for security, M$ would have a (seemingly) solid strategy to against Linux, *BSD, any open source OS. I'm sure that you all can see that this type of technology would be pretty much impossible to impliment securely in an open source OS (since everything is open to scrutiny and USER configuration). I seroiously hope M$ does this, as it will blow up in thier faces when the security of the mechanisim is comprimised(as was noted earlier), creating an enoromous failure on thier part. Imagine the embarrasment of this happening after M$ hypes and markets the SHIT out of this having IMPENITRABLE security. It would be the end of M$. So....BRING IT ON BILLY! (by the way if you haven't been paying attention, the 360 is the beta of this.....I'll keep a keen eye on http://www.free60.org/)
That is what I meant. Limited utility = very slow. If any software that would realize the xbox 360's true potential would have to be meticoulously coded (OR recoded from existing PPC code that utilizes OOI) for the platform. Sorry that wasn't clear. Yes, get linux on there, PLEASE. But: Don't be expecting to immediately (if ever) slap on Firefox 1.5, Mplayer, and all your favorite standard linux apps. Like all other Linux projects, this will start out as a commandline, and baby steps from there. Think about how people have had compatibility issues with existing code and OSx86: iTunes didn't work (does with new patch) lots of stuff is SLOW (and I mean SLOWWWWW) like safari, firefox. People outhere have xbenched P4M 1.8Ghz at 29! This is comparable to an eMac G3. Now, most people use open source software is native to OSx86, an much of that SW is great, but really, the experience is nothing compared to actually having a PowerMac dual G5 running native code (no, I am not bashing open source, just skeptical how many will be willing to port SW to hacked xbox360's) IMHO, everything would be worth it if the Damn thing just had a PCI-e slot so you could slap a Myrinet card in there or something. But bottom line is, to reach full potential of the hardware takes native code, and that takes meticoulus work.
Well, Right, as I said, AT MOST that is available to dev is two cores, one is for OS, hypervisor, doing checksums, misc CP,audio, etc....
OK, been looking into this a little bit, in addition to the arstechnica article mentioned earlier, the best efforts break the 360 can be found on http://softlife.blogspot.com/ This guy seems like a pretty knowlegable guy
and http://www.free60.org/wiki/Main_Page Of course, the main project to get linux up and running, got some pretty decent technical breakdowns - looks like they are using the NAND flash for boot!!! On the surface, this is very encouraging but I still thing they will find some very difficult secure booting obsticles (key could be stored on cpu etc) Hell they did this with the hidden rom in the xbox.
Sorry to ramble, but all this CP and TC crap reminds me of the simstim decks in neuromancer that had all of the electronics embedded in a near indestructible epoxy like compound, that would zero the software if any xray or sonic scans were done to examine the device. (Which in themselves remind me of IBM's secure cryptoprocessors)
And yeah, I agree, getting Linux running will have limited benefit in utilizing cheap hardware. The benefit will be dealing a SERIOUS blow to Treacherous Computing (the xbox 360 is the beta, guys, believe it)
"An inability to execute instructions out of order does not prevent PPC code from running, nor is it crippling. Additionally, having an instruction window is rather pointless when instructions can't be executed out of order."
True, it doesn't PREVENT it from running, it just prevents it from running WELL. The thing would be slow as molasses if you tried to run PPC code that wasn't optimized for this design change. This is similar is going on with people and the OSx86 thing (don't try it, it is illegal) They take the thing, and bitch when PPC code runs as about as fast as on an eMac G3 when they have a P4 2Ghz+. Now, to the comment earlier that Sony made the passing remark about maybe we should team up with Apple, get OS X going.... Yes, same thing here. It is not like you could just slap a standard build of OS X on there and expect it to fly....you would have to optimize the code for it. And I'm sure if that happened it would be a cut down version of X anyway (toss elements of the OS that are irrelevant, then there is also less to optimize).
There is no mistake on my (or arstechnica's) part. This thing CANNOT do out of order instruction! Seriously, the only thing better for M$ than producing $3000+ hardware for $300 is making everyone think they did. It is all just voodoo marketing.
That is not to say that Linux cannot be put on here, and that some hacking could be done with it to take advantage of the architectural strenths of this machine. When it is done, it will be VERY hacky and of limited utility to GP computing apps. Oh, and run standard PPC code and you WILL see the thing come to a screeching halt as it HAS NO INSTRUCTION WINDOW!!!
BTW, here are the prices for G5 processors - scroll down a bit and see that single core 1.8Ghz PowerPc retails for $799:
http://www.galaxyhp.com/PMG5/parts_pmg5.html#cpu
Now, I know this is retail, but still.
Also, I would bet that the low yeilds might have something to do with speeding up the RATE these things are manufactured (in an attempt to produce more over a given period you lower cost) a bit too much.
Basically it says: "The basic idea behind both Cell and Xenon is to make the execution core less complex by stripping out hardware that's intended to optimize instruction scheduling at runtime. Neither the Xenon nor the Cell have an instruction window, which means that these two processor designs largely forget about instruction-level parallelism. Instead, instructions pass through the processor in the order in which they're fetched, with the twist that two adjacent, non-dependent instructions are executed in parallel where possible."
This means that standard PPC code (OS X, etc) WILL NOT RUN on this. This is also the reason that IBM is selling these things at only $106 a pop to M$. Have you checked the prices for SINGLE CORE G5s for Apple? Their like $600-700 a piece! So, I am guessing that stripping these down makes them much easier and therefore faster and cheaper to mass produce, and therefore the price difference.
Anyway, there are reports that only one core is availble to intitial game developers, and one of the cores is strictly for M$ bullshit content protection TC such as the hypervisor, etc.
Not to mention from the article:
Microsoft and IBM engineers worked together during the definition phase of the project to specify a design to satisfy the constraints of a mass-produced consumer device
Sounds like a shitload of TC shit build right into the chip, so I am NOT holding my breath for linux to be ported to this (not that I wouldn't be thrilled to see this). Cetainly not when the port to STI Cell architecture has been under dev for what, over a year? Damn, can't wait for PS3 release.
Random links to myspace proves nothing. Oh, and I guess you have never heard the phrase:
"ASSUMPTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK UPS"
Just because something is beyond your comprehention does not qualify it as illegible. Given the fact that you are DEEPLY offended and scramble to prove yourself when some random person posts that you are a VIRGIN only proves it to everone who sees your reaction.
Virgin.
It's like THIS:
1. Gifter wants to get recipeint an Xbox 360
2. Xbox 360 unavaliable, because (FOR WHATEVER REASON) M$ Fucked up
3. Now Gifter gets the "next best" gaming related gift, the PSP.
(the gifter has to give something for Xmas)
4. Now that the recipeint has a PSP, Sony wins more software sales.
5. When person has disposable income again (probably a good 6 months with the amount spent on xmas nowadays) to buy Next Gen Console himself, he buys the PS3 because of the UMD adapter that is available so he can play all his preexisting games (bet your sweet ass Sony WILL do this, or have some other killer PSP-PS3 app)
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Can't wait to see Bill use the same foot gun to fuck up Vista!!!!!! ROFL - BTW, it is so NICE to see your TC beta platform have a 20% faliure rate, now I can sleep better!
How many parents are going to buy their kids $400-$600 giftcards so they can pick up the box later? I'll save myself by not wagering a guess, but my own experience is that kids want something to open and play with on Christmas.....
Yup, and the next best thing for parents to buy is...(drum roll)
THE PSP!!! WAY TO GO BILLY, for FORCING everyone who was not BLESSED enough to be able to buy your wonderfull (and deliberately undersupplied) CrapBox 360! Now, All Sony has to do is some kind of clever tie in with PSP (UMD ADAPTER??) For the PS3, and all you now lost all those potential sales PERMANENTLY. HAH AHAHHAHAAH! FUH-Q M$!!!
Well, that's nice, but I think it would be to their benefit to scale the thing up about 1000 times and use it in transportation. Who wouldn't want an electric car that could be recharged in 30 seconds? That's faster than I can pump in liquified ancient microbe remains!
The only selling poing for the Xbox 360: Christmas release date.
Christmas: an uncelebrated holiday an Japan therefore rendering a Christmas release date irrelevant.
In other words, if it wern't for Holiday melee and artificial shortages, would Xbox 360 be flying of the shelves with PS3 a couple of months away?
The Japanese reaction proves that the answer is no.
Plus the Japanese have the advantage of having proof that the Xbox 360 sucks with all the crashing that has been going on in US 'boxes
All this asside from the fact that the Japanese are serious technophiles and have a chauvanist culture to put it lightly.
Well, M$ wanted to create artificial shortage to create big "sell out" buzz and watch their stock tick up a couple of notches. Ok. However, they just alientated a HUGE segment of the market, who now have no choice but to buy thier loved one SOMETHING ELSE for a XMAS gift. NOW, if I were buying something for a gamer (we are assuming the recipient is a non PC gamer, since the first choice was xbox 360) and couldn't get the 360, am I just going to stiff that person out of a gift cause I couldn't be fortunate enough to get my hands on one? NOPE, I'll just buy him the next best thing, which is hmmmm....THE PSP!! WOW!! M$ JUST FORCES ALL A HUGE CHUNK OF THE MARKET INTO BUYING THEIR COMPETITORS PRODUCT!!! GOOD JOB BILLY!!!
Entirely new motherboards and processors would have to be designed for Linux.
Uh nope. They would just continue using the current hardware and the hardware that is going to be manufactured for the forseeable future.
You see, the burden on shifting the WHOLE HARDWARE PARADIGM for modern computing is put on MICROSOFT. Not an easy task, and actually an insurmountable one (free-market system controlling production and all that) Damn.
Slashdot Mirror
MacOS X != FeeBSD + Aqua
It is a hybrid kernel called XNU which combinines the Mach 3.0 kernel developed at Carnegie Mellon University with COMPONENTS from the FreeBSD kernel. XNU is an acronym for X is Not Unix. Want proof? Many useful UNIX commands WILL NOT WORK in the toyish OS X command line interface (wildcard-while not a command- comes to mind, but theres lots more)
You see, if M$ can be $ucce$$ful in pu$hing this onto the public under the guise of beeing imparitive for security, M$ would have a (seemingly) solid strategy to against Linux, *BSD, any open source OS. I'm sure that you all can see that this type of technology would be pretty much impossible to impliment securely in an open source OS (since everything is open to scrutiny and USER configuration). I seroiously hope M$ does this, as it will blow up in thier faces when the security of the mechanisim is comprimised(as was noted earlier), creating an enoromous failure on thier part. Imagine the embarrasment of this happening after M$ hypes and markets the SHIT out of this having IMPENITRABLE security. It would be the end of M$. So....BRING IT ON BILLY! (by the way if you haven't been paying attention, the 360 is the beta of this.....I'll keep a keen eye on http://www.free60.org/)
Wow. We get to make up metarumors now?
That is what I meant. Limited utility = very slow. If any software that would realize the xbox 360's true potential would have to be meticoulously coded (OR recoded from existing PPC code that utilizes OOI) for the platform. Sorry that wasn't clear. Yes, get linux on there, PLEASE. But: Don't be expecting to immediately (if ever) slap on Firefox 1.5, Mplayer, and all your favorite standard linux apps. Like all other Linux projects, this will start out as a commandline, and baby steps from there. Think about how people have had compatibility issues with existing code and OSx86: iTunes didn't work (does with new patch) lots of stuff is SLOW (and I mean SLOWWWWW) like safari, firefox. People outhere have xbenched P4M 1.8Ghz at 29! This is comparable to an eMac G3. Now, most people use open source software is native to OSx86, an much of that SW is great, but really, the experience is nothing compared to actually having a PowerMac dual G5 running native code (no, I am not bashing open source, just skeptical how many will be willing to port SW to hacked xbox360's) IMHO, everything would be worth it if the Damn thing just had a PCI-e slot so you could slap a Myrinet card in there or something. But bottom line is, to reach full potential of the hardware takes native code, and that takes meticoulus work.
Well, Right, as I said, AT MOST that is available to dev is two cores, one is for OS, hypervisor, doing checksums, misc CP,audio, etc.... OK, been looking into this a little bit, in addition to the arstechnica article mentioned earlier, the best efforts break the 360 can be found on
http://softlife.blogspot.com/ This guy seems like a pretty knowlegable guy
and
http://www.free60.org/wiki/Main_Page Of course, the main project to get linux up and running, got some pretty decent technical breakdowns - looks like they are using the NAND flash for boot!!! On the surface, this is very encouraging but I still thing they will find some very difficult secure booting obsticles (key could be stored on cpu etc) Hell they did this with the hidden rom in the xbox.
Sorry to ramble, but all this CP and TC crap reminds me of the simstim decks in neuromancer that had all of the electronics embedded in a near indestructible epoxy like compound, that would zero the software if any xray or sonic scans were done to examine the device. (Which in themselves remind me of IBM's secure cryptoprocessors) And yeah, I agree, getting Linux running will have limited benefit in utilizing cheap hardware. The benefit will be dealing a SERIOUS blow to Treacherous Computing (the xbox 360 is the beta, guys, believe it)
"An inability to execute instructions out of order does not prevent PPC code from running, nor is it crippling. Additionally, having an instruction window is rather pointless when instructions can't be executed out of order."
True, it doesn't PREVENT it from running, it just prevents it from running WELL. The thing would be slow as molasses if you tried to run PPC code that wasn't optimized for this design change. This is similar is going on with people and the OSx86 thing (don't try it, it is illegal) They take the thing, and bitch when PPC code runs as about as fast as on an eMac G3 when they have a P4 2Ghz+. Now, to the comment earlier that Sony made the passing remark about maybe we should team up with Apple, get OS X going.... Yes, same thing here. It is not like you could just slap a standard build of OS X on there and expect it to fly....you would have to optimize the code for it. And I'm sure if that happened it would be a cut down version of X anyway (toss elements of the OS that are irrelevant, then there is also less to optimize).
Oh fucking Christ, Google it. I'm studying for finals
There is no mistake on my (or arstechnica's) part. This thing CANNOT do out of order instruction! Seriously, the only thing better for M$ than producing $3000+ hardware for $300 is making everyone think they did. It is all just voodoo marketing.
That is not to say that Linux cannot be put on here, and that some hacking could be done with it to take advantage of the architectural strenths of this machine. When it is done, it will be VERY hacky and of limited utility to GP computing apps. Oh, and run standard PPC code and you WILL see the thing come to a screeching halt as it HAS NO INSTRUCTION WINDOW!!!
BTW, here are the prices for G5 processors - scroll down a bit and see that single core 1.8Ghz PowerPc retails for $799: http://www.galaxyhp.com/PMG5/parts_pmg5.html#cpu
Now, I know this is retail, but still.
Also, I would bet that the low yeilds might have something to do with speeding up the RATE these things are manufactured (in an attempt to produce more over a given period you lower cost) a bit too much.
Hate to burst alot of bubbles, BUT:
0 -2.ars/2
The Xenon CPU IS NOT the same as 3 G5's all on one chip! Read the arstechnica article here:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox36
Basically it says: "The basic idea behind both Cell and Xenon is to make the execution core less complex by stripping out hardware that's intended to optimize instruction scheduling at runtime. Neither the Xenon nor the Cell have an instruction window, which means that these two processor designs largely forget about instruction-level parallelism. Instead, instructions pass through the processor in the order in which they're fetched, with the twist that two adjacent, non-dependent instructions are executed in parallel where possible."
This means that standard PPC code (OS X, etc) WILL NOT RUN on this. This is also the reason that IBM is selling these things at only $106 a pop to M$. Have you checked the prices for SINGLE CORE G5s for Apple? Their like $600-700 a piece! So, I am guessing that stripping these down makes them much easier and therefore faster and cheaper to mass produce, and therefore the price difference.
Anyway, there are reports that only one core is availble to intitial game developers, and one of the cores is strictly for M$ bullshit content protection TC such as the hypervisor, etc.
Not to mention from the article:
Microsoft and IBM engineers worked together during the definition phase of the project to specify a design to satisfy the constraints of a mass-produced consumer device
Sounds like a shitload of TC shit build right into the chip, so I am NOT holding my breath for linux to be ported to this (not that I wouldn't be thrilled to see this). Cetainly not when the port to STI Cell architecture has been under dev for what, over a year? Damn, can't wait for PS3 release.
Random links to myspace proves nothing. Oh, and I guess you have never heard the phrase: "ASSUMPTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK UPS" Just because something is beyond your comprehention does not qualify it as illegible. Given the fact that you are DEEPLY offended and scramble to prove yourself when some random person posts that you are a VIRGIN only proves it to everone who sees your reaction. Virgin.
Menwhile everyone is laughing back at you for the fact that you are still a virgin.
The ultimate reason to wait for the PS3 http://www.allhardporn.com/galleries/tgp_submits/0 43004/006.jpg
3D Hentai games in 1080p - The real reason the Japanese are waiting for the PS3! (Hey it's mine)
It's like THIS: 1. Gifter wants to get recipeint an Xbox 360 2. Xbox 360 unavaliable, because (FOR WHATEVER REASON) M$ Fucked up 3. Now Gifter gets the "next best" gaming related gift, the PSP. (the gifter has to give something for Xmas) 4. Now that the recipeint has a PSP, Sony wins more software sales. 5. When person has disposable income again (probably a good 6 months with the amount spent on xmas nowadays) to buy Next Gen Console himself, he buys the PS3 because of the UMD adapter that is available so he can play all his preexisting games (bet your sweet ass Sony WILL do this, or have some other killer PSP-PS3 app) HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Can't wait to see Bill use the same foot gun to fuck up Vista!!!!!! ROFL - BTW, it is so NICE to see your TC beta platform have a 20% faliure rate, now I can sleep better!
How many parents are going to buy their kids $400-$600 giftcards so they can pick up the box later? I'll save myself by not wagering a guess, but my own experience is that kids want something to open and play with on Christmas..... Yup, and the next best thing for parents to buy is...(drum roll) THE PSP!!! WAY TO GO BILLY, for FORCING everyone who was not BLESSED enough to be able to buy your wonderfull (and deliberately undersupplied) CrapBox 360! Now, All Sony has to do is some kind of clever tie in with PSP (UMD ADAPTER??) For the PS3, and all you now lost all those potential sales PERMANENTLY. HAH AHAHHAHAAH! FUH-Q M$!!!
Well, that's nice, but I think it would be to their benefit to scale the thing up about 1000 times and use it in transportation. Who wouldn't want an electric car that could be recharged in 30 seconds? That's faster than I can pump in liquified ancient microbe remains!
The only selling poing for the Xbox 360: Christmas release date. Christmas: an uncelebrated holiday an Japan therefore rendering a Christmas release date irrelevant. In other words, if it wern't for Holiday melee and artificial shortages, would Xbox 360 be flying of the shelves with PS3 a couple of months away? The Japanese reaction proves that the answer is no. Plus the Japanese have the advantage of having proof that the Xbox 360 sucks with all the crashing that has been going on in US 'boxes All this asside from the fact that the Japanese are serious technophiles and have a chauvanist culture to put it lightly.
Well, M$ wanted to create artificial shortage to create big "sell out" buzz and watch their stock tick up a couple of notches. Ok. However, they just alientated a HUGE segment of the market, who now have no choice but to buy thier loved one SOMETHING ELSE for a XMAS gift. NOW, if I were buying something for a gamer (we are assuming the recipient is a non PC gamer, since the first choice was xbox 360) and couldn't get the 360, am I just going to stiff that person out of a gift cause I couldn't be fortunate enough to get my hands on one? NOPE, I'll just buy him the next best thing, which is hmmmm....THE PSP!! WOW!! M$ JUST FORCES ALL A HUGE CHUNK OF THE MARKET INTO BUYING THEIR COMPETITORS PRODUCT!!! GOOD JOB BILLY!!!
Entirely new motherboards and processors would have to be designed for Linux. Uh nope. They would just continue using the current hardware and the hardware that is going to be manufactured for the forseeable future. You see, the burden on shifting the WHOLE HARDWARE PARADIGM for modern computing is put on MICROSOFT. Not an easy task, and actually an insurmountable one (free-market system controlling production and all that) Damn.