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Free60 Project Aims for Linux on Xbox 360
BlueMoon writes "The Free60 Project wiki and developers mailinglist has been launched. The project aims to port open source operating systems like GNU/Linux and Darwin to the Microsoft Xbox 360 gaming console.
The site already contains some interesting details about the Xbox 360 security: per-box key stored on CPU, boot ROM will be on CPU too and a hypervisor verifies the running state of the kernel."
Why do you want to buy from M$ and do a ...
*Starts the "Time-to-360-hacked" Stopwatch....*
-ND
If you want a $400 PowerPC system then why not just pickup a refurbished Mac Mini?
Being a triple core 3.2GHz PowerPC it would be cool to get OS X running on the XBOX 360.
I guess it was only a matter of time. I just dont understand why.. Linux runs great on a 486. Why would you need it on a three 3.2 GHz processors.
"You won't eat our meat, but you'll glue with our feet.." --Some cow
They want to run KDE.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
This goes extremely well with my solution to the overheating problem:
I suggest that correct this problem that you transform your "XBox" into the form it should have originally been in:
1) Buy MicroATX case (with powersupply)
2) Rip apart XBox
3) Rebuild your computer. err XBox.
Done Right?
and I suppose:
4) Install Linux and stop buying those ridiculously priced games.
Proof by very large bribes. QED.
...until that overheating problem is solved...
If they're too quick at crackin the new box, microsoft will patch the other xboxes they'll be making. I'd imagine that's one of the reasons they released so few at this time. The other major one being that they didn't wanna get slapped with too many lawsuits concerning house fires.
Assuming that the hypervisor technology in the xbox360 is really the IBM hypervisor, than the linux community could have access to the patents involved in this technology, making it a lot easier (as in really tough job to in just a bit less realy tough job) to get linux running on the xbox. Maybe it is possible to run it in a VM under xbox windows (I guess internally in microsoft this might be called xwindows).
My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
Whata waste of time, effort and brains.
Just as apple drops the PPC, Microsoft starts using it?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
...because a lot of good came out of the original Xbox being hacked. I'm sure there are a lot of high-perf researchers on a shoestring who are eyeing the price on the basic Xbox 360. Even without a hard disk, a small memory card should be enough to house a basic computation/communications infrastructure, and with the retail price on the basic 360, you should be able to string a bunch of them together to get decent computing power at a price even lower than a low-end Beowulf. I understand that the obvious application of hacking the 360 is so that you can play pirated games, but I for one am eagerly waiting to see what comes out of this project, and the PS3-hack that is soon to be.
An old-timer with old-timey ideas.
Interesting source of the information: I met someone on the IRC the other day who told me the following...
The biggest thing I wonder about in "The key is stored inside the CPU". This adds cost, but it is possible. It means that to execute your own code, the serial number must be determined so that a replacement flash chip can be properly encrypted. I'm betting it's pretty hard to find this number out without taking apart the processor.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
My question when I see stories like this is: Why? More specifically, why would anyone want to put a bulky, general purpose operating system onto lean and special-purpose hardware? One of the big advantages of consoles is that the "os" is minimal, to the point of being a tiny set of hardware interfacing code. The Xbox 360 (and the original Xbox) isn't running Windows or anything like that, because there's no need. You get nothing out of running Linux on such hardware.
I already know 1st step "HowTo run Linux on your XBox 360" - it's:
;-)
1, Attach your XBox on a string so it can be c00l enough
I've long thought that the only reason MS decided to go with the smaller laptop drives is their drastically reduced capacity. Does the lure of piracy decrease with the size of the Hard Drive? I'll admit that on my modded XBox, I prefer to rip all of my *legit* games to the HD, just for easy access. Anybody else think the same way?
Score:4, Informative?!
This is a joke, people!
An Indian Psycologist (whose name went something like Sikh Sent Mahalia - but I'm sure I totally mangled it, and can't lay my hands on the book) identified the necessary components of "flow" as skills, rules, goals, and feedback. For any activity, whether work or play, if you lack the skill, or if the activity is too easy or too hard, you are frustrated and unhappy. If you can't discern the rules (or meta rules), you are frustrated and unhappy. If there is no goal, you are frustrated and unhappy. If there is no feedback on your progress, you are frustrated and unhappy.
Sports like football have all the components (for those with the skill), and there is "flow". Putting linux on machines designed to prevent that very thing is like a game of football for geeks. It requires skill (is not too easy), but has been and probably can be done (is not too hard). The rules are those of logic and electronics. The goal is clear, and there is feedback along the way as you (carefully arrange to) see evidence of the system running your code further and further along in the boot process.
It can get frustrating if there is a lack of feedback - you can't find a visible bit to twiddle to show the code has gotten to a specific point.
because game consoles, too, want to be free.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
And they want to open something in OpenOffice.
Fair enough. Stupid KDE, black/flux would work fine.
"You won't eat our meat, but you'll glue with our feet.." --Some cow
Enjoy
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/06/30
To cracking the Trusted Computing hardware.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
As other posters have noted, game consoles share the distinctive trait of standardized, special-purpose hardware, on which a general-purpose Linux OS is installed. But even the best game consoles make for pretty poor PCs if you just look at the specs, so it seems to me that this is more of a proof-of-concept and the sheer devilish joy of seeing Tux on an Xbox.
But is it not possible to modify a distro for specifically that set of hardware that comes with, say, the Xbox 360? Would the gain in performance not be equal to that of games software written for that set of hardware?
The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
Hello fellow slashdotters, I've been reading slashdot for several years but this is ourageous.
As the Executive Sales Manager for Microsoft XBox 360 I don't see this as news but a direct
illegal action against the Microsoft corporation. Hacking the XBox hardware which the machine was
not originally intended for will be further looked into by the FBI and CIA as it is considered a
hostile Terrorist action against the United States of America's privatly owned enterprises. We
have the governments full support to fight this Communist plague and any attempt to interfere or
hinder this investigation will result in an immediate hostile response.
Sometimes we want people to get karma for making us laugh. And Taco took away karma for Funny mods. Thus, Informative.
Before they try porting Gentoo to it.
just use a simple PC to run Linux you know.
I mean seriously ... why not put Linux on the XBox? If there are some hackers out there that get their rocks off porting Linux to everything from new architectures to dead badgers, then more power to them if they want to tackle the X360, too.
And IMO it'd be pretty damn cool to have 1) the power and 2) the form-factor in a general-purpose box.
Who doesn't like free music?
He's a motivational psychologist studying performance and reward, his name is Csikszentmihalyi, and he's Hungarian, not Indian.
Don't worry, it is just puberty you are experiencing right now.
Another 3-4 years, you will be fine.
microsoft don't care if you run linux on the xbox. they wont loose that much money. (i know that currently they loose a bit on each xbox they sell, but the more they sell, the more they can push manufacturing costs down).
.gov. then they have no competitors.
when 360.0 is cracked, they'll learn how it was done, and make 360.1 more secure. same when people crack 360.1 etc. all the xbox linux code will be open source so they can have a good look at the methods used.
this is all good practice for them so that oneday they'll be able to make a computer that will only run windows and signed code. then they'll claim that anyone not using their secure platform must be a hacker or software/music pirate. then they lobby the
You run linux and not buy any games..
Remember they are gambling on game sales to make a profit on these things.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
3) ???
4) Profit.
Anyone care to develop step 2?
I was thinking, the original xbox could play pretty much everything when chipped right? But what about the 360, with this triple core non-x86 processor? I do realize that there are open decoders for many formats, but which ones will we loose support for? I can think of Windows Media Video on the top of my head.
Dvorak on Doomtech
Some of you kiddies don't remember that before there was flash, there were technologies like PROM, EPROM, and EEPROM. It's perfectly possible they have write-once PROM in the CPU, vs. reprogrammable flash memory. In fact, if I were Microsoft I would have insisted on it.
In case you're too dumb to realize this, the stories on digg are mostly from *gasp* OTHER SITES as well!
Lies. If you read their website, apparently some "guy on IRC told me [the evil hardware specs]." Some guy on IRC.
Now, I'm sure there is some nature of fritzing and DRM going on. But look at the OS X 86 builds. And Apple clearly has more prowess than Microsoft.
It would be pretty cool if Linux worked on a 360 but please remind me again why people are trying to make it so? Aren't there enough projects crying out for some decent developer input already? Maybe I am just getting old and grumpy but this seems like a terrible waste of time that could be used to great benefit.
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
Sure they sell them at a $125 loss, but it only comes with a 20 gig HDD and the place where it shines (where the $525 was spent) is in grapgics processing. Not to point out the obvious, but a 16 meg graphics card would be fine for what most people use Linux for. If the goal is to hurt MS, I don't think a few hundred (or thousand) people buying a 360 _only_ for running Linux will really do anything more than improve their sales numbers. You will just be out $400 that could have been much better spent elsewhere.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
I know that was a joke, but the appeal of getting linux on the Xbox for me is to be able to run MythFrontend for all my video needs... which requires QT and tends to be a little clunky on ancient machines. Not that you need 3.2 ghz processors, but hey, the XBox is cheaper than a new machine.
Does it have a triple core CPU capable of running two threads on each core?
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
This is (as far as I know) the very first Trusted Computing platform that we can put our hands on. Very, very interesting. And it is well done (no obvious flaws).
If somebody can break that, we may be safe! That or they may build a more secure one, but we'll be safe for more time anyway.
Rethinking email
And breaking in to something that is 2nd gen built against it, and beating Microsoft.
Someday we'll all be negroes
Yeah, it's a shame that I can't play new games like Quake IV on my Linux box.
If I have children in the house, then what E or E10+ rated games of the same production standards as AAA commercial titles are available for Linux?
If I'm not a fan of first-person shooters, then what games of other genres of the same production standards as AAA commercial titles are available for Linux?
so I highly doubt Microsoft would create huge disruptions in supplies just to stop this behavoir.....
If Sony's cat-and-mouse game with PSP homebrew enthusiasts is any indication of what Microsoft might do, especially given that one of the linked pages has "TPM"...
I believe that's:
1. Get modified Xbox with Linux installed
2. Suspend on a piece of string
3. Spin 360 degrees on piece of string
4. ???
5. Profit!
Cziksentmihalyi is pronounced "CHICK-SENT-ME-HIGH", and although he was the first to academically describe this state, as Cziksentmihalyi acknowledges, it has been known and pursued for much, much longer by yogis and many others.
The burden of proof is on _your_ stupid claim, TYVM.
proof, for either side, will come when it's finaly hacked :P
STFU n00b! w3 r 1337x0r /. pwns j00!
Very Respectfully,
Slashdot.org Legal Department
" i r 1337. j00 a l0z3r "
That talk kinda makes you cry, doesn't it?
That's right..cry those nerdly tears
But you're utterly wrong. The OP made a claim, without posting a shred of evidence, and I asked him/her to back it up. I'm genuinely interested to hear where he (or anyone else) thinks flaws might be in the 360's security model. The fact that no-one has presented a single argument to back this up, while at the same time moderating it up 'Interesting', says a lot about the collective mindset of this website.
Far be it from me to question this but given that it functions out the box as a Media Center extender
Can the Xbox 360 system stream video from a Mac or from any other machine running an operating system other than Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Edition? Can it stream media encoded in more open (even if not Free) codecs, or is it limited to WMV and WMA?
It would be pretty cool if Linux worked on a 360 but please remind me again why people are trying to make it so? Aren't there enough projects crying out for some decent developer input already? Maybe I am just getting old and grumpy but this seems like a terrible waste of time that could be used to great benefit.
I consider this the logical equivalent of the question, "Couldn't they be working on a cure for cancer instead?" I cannot abide this sort of arrogant stupidity.
1) All programmers/scientists/etc. are not equivalent. Life is not some computer strategy game. You can't just wave your mouse around, pull a person off one project, put them on another, and expect the same level of productivity. Maybe the Xbox 360 project will attract people with good hardware hacking skills that aren't really applicable on anything you care about.
2) What interests you may or may not interest people of technical aptitude. Sure, a cure for cancer would be really great, but not everyone is interested in whatever field of research will finally result in it. Some people might be more interested in entomology than oncology, and some people might be more interested in getting a cheap, powerful Linux home entertainment computer than whatever makes you happy. Your desires are not everyone else's desires.
3) What doesn't interest you isn't necessarily useless. An Xbox is a very powerful multi-processor system perfect for hooking up to a home entertainment system and well suited for light distributed processing tasks. It's also fantastically cheap for what it's capable of. There are numerous potential uses for it.
4) Not everything has to be useful to be worth doing. Surprise, surprise -- the people working on this might be doing it for fun! Even if it didn't have a lot of utility, that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing if it brings someone enjoyment to do it.
In short, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from pursuing interests that you don't share.
</frothing at the mouth>
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
You should be certain to specify that these CPUs don't execute OoO
Only because they haven't been cracked yet. Should the box be cracked, you'll see a port of Linux, and then you'll have your OpenOffice.org suite.
You mean the same way they look at how exploits are done and use that information to create a 100% virus/spyware/adware-free OS?
There are more backward compatibility issues in making a virus-free Windows operating system than in making a virus-free game console.
Why do all of these projects want to name themselves "Free This" or "Open That"? Okay, they are Free or Open projects and should be justifiably proud about that, but I think it's silly to boast about that in the project name. It gets in the way in the long run. I'm personally not happy with "OpenOffice.org", for example - They went "Oh, let's call this open office, that's so original", turned out the name was taken, "err, let's call it open office dot org instead"...
It's also way too silly if you try to work the "Free" into some sort of pun on original name. For a long time I thought XFree86 was "um, some sort of free x86 version of X? what a weird name." Then, someone explained it was actually a pun on X386 (X-three-eighty-six vs. free-eighty-six).
Not to even mention it can be dangerous to pull stunts like this - Blizzard wasn't happy about Freecraft, and I didn't think they really had a case about "Freecraft" being too similar to "Warcraft"; but I'm pretty sure Microsoft might be just annoyed enough to flame "Free60" to ground because, hey, it sounds pretty close to "Three-sixty"...
I and many others apparently think [volunteer contribution to distributed computing projects is] worth the power; if you don't, that's your business, nobody makes you leave your system on.
I guess the thinking is that not enough people will likely 1. know about it and 2. think it's worth the power to make the porting effort worthwhile.
Because not all of us share the same tastes as you and we actually find it funny?
This would be great for TuxKart http://tuxkart.sourceforge.net/ and SuperTux http://supertux.berlios.de/! Or would these be more appropriate on a hacked Revolution http://www.nintendo.com/revolution?
I understand that it happens. I just don't understand *why* it happens. Let's look at the linked cartoon. Oh man that's a hoot! A joke about geeks not having sex! How *do* they come up with it? Geniuses, I tell ya.
You must be afraid of girls.
Q: Have you guys modded the Xbox360 yet?
A: No, not yet.
That doesn't really make any sense. More likely: heat, power consumption, shock resistance, noise, and physical size. Especially heat/power/size, which are critical for a "console" game; just look at the problems with the overheating power adapters...
Please help metamoderate.
This must be the alternative to string then! :-)
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
Everyone expects that Microsoft would want to shut such a site down. Believe it or not, if the Trusted Computing Machine paradigm is to really take hold, Microsoft is going to have to wait it out. Lots of companies have worked on other tamper-proof technology. If this platform can withstand a very large portion of that attack, then they will have a reputation to be proud of - from a security perspective.
Bruce Schneier reminds us of several attributes in his book Secrets and Lies.
For the record, I have no interest in playing on a 360, much less compromizing one, but if Microsoft can apply the above principles, then they will have a reputation and platform other non-gaming industries can embrace. Even Sony couldn't buy that with money. I do, however, have my doubts that Microsoft has focused on security robustness because their first and formost motto should be "It's all about the gaming experience." Fail that and the thing dies anyway.
Free60? That's pretty cool. What are the other consoles going to get for a name? "Open Source Revolution", uh.. "PS3 Linux"?
I don't see why there isn't a lot more enthusiasm behind this project, only 100 posts so far, and hald of them saying why hacking the X-box 360 isn't that important. I thought this site is for nerds, the type of people who would love to get there hands dirty with this type of stuff. How can there be so much exitment about the x-boxs release, not as much exitment about greatly expanding what you can do with your X-box. First off, this allows gamers a much, much larger variety of games... I might end up playing Frespace to this thing. Anything you would be able to do with a PC you could do with an X-box 360 if linux is ported to it. I intend for my next PC to be an X-box 360, microsoft gets the hardware at a reduced cost, and that reduced cost is not only carried over onto you, but is improved upon, microsoft loses $130 for each xbox sold. This is no minimalistic PC, it's much better than my current one. When the security is cracked for linux, it won't be long until mac os X or any of the BSDs are ported to. Plus, it only runs $300 for a base unit. Alright anough dealing with these non-nerds, why aren't you linux experts hacking away at this thing? Think of the boon in linux developers when all these computer users get a taste of linux, because it will so vastly improves there console. Whos' going to care about the X-box when the PS3 comes? The faster it is ported, the more people who will be exposed to Linux, and end up developing it and making it better. Plus, the sooner I get my PC. How can you turn down this challenge? I wish they would have another one of those contests, were that guy got $100,000 for getting linux on the first x-box without a hardware change.
Those that have a system with the HD and intend to keep it standing vertically, may want to think twice about that.
It was very easy for me to kill a devkit as it fell laterally while the console was on.
I can't imagine the retail system being less sensitive to that, as it's only normal for an HD to get damaged that way.
The problem is that the thing is meant to stand up, but it's light and it doesn't have a wide base.
Watch out.
"La presi e te la pagai (480.000 Lire)"
Penny Arcade is about as funny as a kick in the balls.
A kick in the balls is plenty funny when it happens to someone else.
as the fear of any other console vendor is "homemade" software. this would mean opening the market to everyone and not only to licensed publishers.
i'm a bit sad of this, cause coding for consoles is fun. i did some gba coding, and it is really cool to see your demos appear on the actual hardware.
On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.
I can no longer sit back and allow...Communist infiltration...Communist indoctrination...Communist subversion...and the international Communist conspiracy...to sap and impurify...all...of our precious bodily fluids
Once they make uncrackable hardware, no one will buy it! I see only one reason to buy x360, to hack it, hehe. Really, if the next gen M$ stuff comes out fully with uncrackable DRM, no one will use it. DRM isn't good for M$, it is good for RIAA, M$ just employs it because it 'must'.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
DRM is really good for Microsoft if the only 'trusted' OS is Windows. You think the world's largest software company would do anything but say fuck off to the entertainment cartels if there wasn't anything in it for them?
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
I hope this will be possible, that is, to mod the Xbox.
I want a small media console for my apartment without hooking up a computer to a TV. I would be nice to store MP3s and such on it as well. And play a few games on it.
If not I hope Nintendo or the PS3 provide this sort of think natively. If the reasoning behind all the TPM measures is in part to prevent piracy, IMO, Nintendo got it right with the Gamecube: A small format disc (though non-standard) which spins backward with the data written in an inverse way. Nobody's been able to pirate a game and play it on the GC to date. If only it would play DVD size discs it would be great.
Because it's about two guys, living together, that like to play games with each other. Geee, you some kind of homophobe?
In short, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from pursuing interests that you don't share.
In shorter, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from discouraging people from pursuing interests that they don't share.
In case you didnt know free60 is Australian pronunciation of for 360. Im getting kinda fristy here.
really bored? My blog
I don't understand all this "port Linux to a console" stuff. Isn't it just feeding Microsoft and proprietary devices to add features to their hardware? Why encourage sales of their products?
... and then they built the supercollider.
Over here on this thread. :^)
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
You see.. they're taking a $129 loss on every x360 sold.. the reason is that they KNOW we're going to put Linux on it.. and the moment we do you KNOW some well meaning twit will port Gentoo to it.
Now if these buggers over heat and die regularly what do you think GENTOO is going to do to it with all that compiling?!?!
It's going to set fire to houses and KILL PEOPLE!!
Then MS can sit back and let the marketing dogs of war loose, and Linux will be branded as the child killing OS for ever and a day.
so.. which of you genius Judas will be nailing Tux to a dead tree first??
"Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
So... the more Xboxes you can use for non-game playing purposes, the better!
We're still talkin about the Xbox?
Just checking.
Well, a theoretical dictator of the world not have to "discourage" people. He'd just send in the shock troops and put an end to whatever the rablle was doing. :)
And the OP's attitude wasn't *that* horrible. Things should have their value questioned at all times. The lack of questioning things leads to most of the messes we have in the world today. Watch a politician give an interview thse days. I don't think "follow up question" is even in the cirriculum of journalism schools these days.
And, yes, "doing it for fun" is a perfectly valid answer, but there's no need to Bakersfield chimp on the OP. ;-)
I bet there is some group within M$ whose job has been specifically to prevent Linux from running on the xbox 360. They better cross their fingers
You seem to think that running Linux on the XBox is some sort of value proposition for geeks. I think you misunderstand it.
As a close parallel, I would suggest reading http://www.gamers.org/~quinet/lilo/ for a close parallel.
In essence, why bother? Because the XBox was not supposed to run Linux. It is the thrill and challenge, not the idea of a cheap web server...
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
What about emacs? Are we out of emacs jokes? I could have sworn there was supposed to be an emacs joke here.
Tired of legitimate data sources? Try UNCYCLOPEDIA
Can linux take advantage of the extra cores and awsome graphics (for vector processing of course)? Or would linux jsut simply access the video if it were a wimp and ignore the other processors.
"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm." - S. G. Colette
Martin Fink tells it like it is:
The question is not why you should put Linux on the XBox, but why not?
Did you get that thing I sent ya?
That's at the core of "Trusted Computing". It can, and will, control access to hardware as well as to the most basic operating system functions such as using a boot loader or kernel. Microsoft plans to provide and manage the keys for almost everything, much the way Verisign manages most SSL keys today either directly or through authorized proxies.
I remember when people used to say stuff like "They want to make an XBox version of Vista"
Emacs Performance Jokes died somewhere around the time when PCs got more than 8 megs of RAM and "Eight Megabytes And Continuously Swapping" just wasn't true anymore.
Linux is not Windows
Parent poster implies a very important point. No security model needs to be perfect. It just needs to be good enough that it isn't worth screwing up whatever the security model is there to protect.
If it takes 50 solder points and a week of effort, 99.9% of your users won't modify their consoles and your software sales won't be negatively impacted. If it takes a complete code re-write then finding a hash collision to get a modified console online, nobody will do it. Heck, Nintendo found that adding 2 little plastic tabs to the SNES was sufficient to greatly reduce the scope of the import market.
Security is about dissuading people from doing things, not preventing them.
The ______ Agenda
That doesn't even make sense. The guy had a really valid point which too few people on Slashdot seem to get.
But enough already!
Look, it's reall simple... and I'm going to spell it out for you. Ready?
Microsoft makes a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows. We all know that. Every day, I promote Linux to as many of my clients / customers as I can. I sell new and refurb boxes with (k)Ubuntu installed. I build low-mid range servers running Gentoo and occasionally a *BSD. I install Linux on everything I can... because I'm a geek.
Now, all that being said, the reason I get paid to install Linux on everything is because Microsoft continues to make a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows.
However, they also make some other products, and some of them are actually pretty nice: mice, keyboards, and... gaming consoles. So, the question is: Since we hate Windows... we have to hate the Xbox (or mice, or keyboards, etc...)? If the answer is yes, then what about the PSy? Who do we hate more this week? Micro$oft or $ony?
Because... $ony installs rootkits on our computers... remember?
But we game (we're hanging in games.slashdot.org... right?)
So, which side do we choose? Because let's face it... you hate Microsoft and want to put them out of business (No more Xboxes, no more Windows... which means no more desktop games), and you hate Sony and don't want their rootkit installing shite, and if all that happens, then there'll only be Nintendo left and you'll hate them because they're monopolizing the gaming market.
So, here's my thing... You really hate Microsoft? Hate the part that matters and do something about it! Hate the OS, because it's insecure, because it's buggy, because it stamps out competition, innovation and growth. But do more than hate it... actively participate in offering a choice. Volunteer a little time and energy and package old PII's and PIII's w/ a light Linux and offer to assist an NPO in acclimating to it. Put your burner to good use and start burning Live/Install distros and passing them out to anyone even remotely interested. Simply put... get involved in a real way. Put the $400 you were going to spend on a 360 (to SHUT M$ DOWN, DUDE!) and buy a burning system and get to work!
But enough with this kind of psuedo-guerilla warfare talk. It's just a bit annoying. Because for every hundred of you that say something like... "Yeah, I'll install Linux on my Xbox 'cause it costs M$ money", one of us have actually done it... because we really are geeks. (And, because in a pinch, an Xbox running Linux makes a damn quick and easy backup server =D ).
And just to answer the question... yes, I do practice what I preach. My Stellar2 burns an everage of 150-200 discs a month (ranging from Live distros -- usually knoppix or Ubuntu, install discs and other OSS projects like OpenCD). And, if you'll look below, my sig is the truth... My Microsoft Partner rep does not like me... at all. Why? Because every month on the phone I ask her this question: What am I doing to help "win the war"? I'm putting the best OS I can into the hands of my clients. What are you guys doing to make that OS Windows?
Now, after a long and heated rant... I'll get back on topic with the actuall article and say this... Linux on a 360? Souns interesting... as soon as its possible, I'll try it. It'll be even nicer than Linux on the Xbox for one reason I can think of (outside of muscle & memory, of course): We can hook it up to a monitor this time!!!
Get to work, Bunny! I'm waiting to follow in your mighty big footsteps!
#SickNotWeak
.. maybe after they illegaly circumvent the anti-linux^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H copy protection features
.. a once in a lifetime chance to build and bear witness to a Linux rig that spontaneously reboots every 20mins.
excellentcantwait.
Once you get into hardware probably very few people will attempt it. Too risky.
I don't know what circles you travel in, but I don't know *anyone* who owns an Xbox that is not modded, and that is out of about 20 to 30 Xbox owners.
The benefits of modding (namely, XBMC and the ability to play backups) are just too great to *not* do it.
It will be the same for the 360 - a hardware mod chip will be out in a matter of weeks, and everyone and their dog will have one.
Let's build a Linux cluster of XBox 360's, and let people interested in finding the cure cancer use it...
Yeah, and 'Emacs Makes A Computer Slow' and 'Eventually Munches All Computer Storage' aren't what they used to be either.
But see http://www.ahajokes.com/com027.html for more emacs jokes.
Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
Instead of making linux work on the 360, can't someone write a "game" that woudl use the live network to become a distrib node? The game woudl be number crunching code.
"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm." - S. G. Colette
I'm not sure why that particular comic is titled "Also Known As Blackmail"
At first I saw it in the title bar and thought it was a dig at Jack Thompson, now I'm just confused.
Are they trying to say that sex with geeks is a form of blackmail?
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
It is bleeding to death after the beating you gave him....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
First thing I thought when I saw the title,
"What a 3 year old would call the 360". As in, the "Micwosoft Free 60"
Want to find other gamers to play board and role playing game
This is a dry run where their extreme measures will not be as controversial.
What they really want is Linux-free PC's. Namely they want to ensure that the cheap, consumer level hardware which runs Windows will be---by crypto-in-hardware---unable to run Linux.
And hardware which runs Linux, or any other operating system which is not Microsoft approved, will not run Windows.
Entirely new motherboards and processors would have to be designed for Linux. This will raise costs dramatically. No doubt that implementing such Windows-able hardware will require licensing software (BIOS) and patents from Microsoft, and it just happens that those hardware companies which are "friendly" and "decide on their own" to go Microsoft-only get a very large discount---one which makes or breaks the profit margins in such fierce competition as CPUs and motherboards.
Microsoft is attempting to do what's never been done before: make an entirely proprietary hardware architecture where everybody else has to put in the capital investment and take big financial risks and face competition, while they skim off huge profits.
Do you think the antitrust settlement will prevent this?
NO! Microsoft very cleverly negotiated enormous loopholes---anything dealing with "security" they have a free hand.
All of this will be couched in terms of security.
This way they can negate two of Linux's advantages at once: lower price (as Linux HW will be as expensive as Mac HW), and security (Only Windows works on "highly secure PC's!!!!").
The copyright and patent scare didn't work to hurt Linux. Now they go for the final solution.
Google is the only thing that Microsoft will, at present, be unable to destroy.
Nothing gallons of Fluorinert and Liquid Nitrogen wouldn't fix..
To be serious: I always thought that cooling issues (like the power supply) were just a result of poor conversion efficiency.
If you run them all off a central power supply, I imagine a significant portion of your cooling issues would dissappear.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
We all have access to the information in the patent whether we're in the Linux camp or not. That's what they're for: to make inventions public but still give the inventor a limited-time monopoly on use of the idea.
Unfortunately, access to the hypervisor patent doesn't make cracking hypervisor any easier, just like access to the RSA patent doesn't make cracking an RSA key any easier.
The patent will tell you which things the hypervisor keeps secret from child processes but it won't tell you what those secrets are.
So what's the deal here? Using Linux string to fix the 360?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Bill? Is that you?
Most people don't realize that the system authentication, for anything, boils down to a simple pass/fail.
If it requires more than that, say key authentication, then you simply generate a placeholder that will let it pass.
Granted, I don't know the first thing about electrical devices and hardware at such a low level, but there is NO such thing as an "unhackable" system. It's impossible as long as the owner has access to the hardware.
Just a matter of when, which should be very soon.
It's just funny when a company believes they've found the end-all solution to piracy. Not gonna happen.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Nuff Said.
The first chipless linux boot was by Habibi in March 2003, announced April 1 IIRC.0 403019435.htm
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Mar/gee2003
And xboxes can be connected to VGA.
http://www.google.com/search?q=xbox+vga
I consider this the logical equivalent of the question, "Couldn't they be working on a cure for cancer instead?"
:)
Funny. Poeple are avoiding IT and going into biotech and other fields.
So I'd say, they are diong just that, going to work on cancer and other htings not quite so outsorceable
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
The GP2X from some korean company will _officially_ ship with a Linux-SDK based on SDL lib, so anyone can start coding games. They go the other way in contrast to any other console vendor out there.
Although the GP2X is not as powerful as the PSP, I consider buying one, 'cause it'll be a great start into console game development.
Regards,
Dennis B. Schramm
Sigs suck!
As a vim user, I say Emacs stands for Esc Meta Alt Control Shift.
Stupidity is an equal opportunity striker.
Fellow slashdotter Bill Dog
Lets assume you're right (and I have no reason to think otherwise), isn't this massive overkill?
I realize they want to prevent piracy, and that's something that should take seriously. But at a certain point, I'm asking why this much trouble? Modding a console is so outside the mainstream that the amount of piracy they're preventing has to be really small.
Is this corporate machismo? Is this MS's platform to prove the viability of the TPC? Or is there more to this than meets the eye? I'm confused at the level of effort here.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Assuming that they would have to reverse engineer the security mechanisms in the Xbox 360, is it legal for them to do what they are doing?
It's been 7.5 hours already. I guess this really proves editors don't read their own site.
That doesn't even make sense. The guy had a really valid point which too few people on Slashdot seem to get.
Really? The guy essentially said "keep your opinion to yourself because I don't agree with it." Actually, they were both saying that.
Given the power supply problem we better make sure this has a Journal File System.
Even if you got around the intentional security measures, would Linux even run on a machine with an number of processors not 2^n? If so, I've never heard of it before...
1, 2, 4, 8, even 32 processors, sure. The only non power-of-two systems I've heard of were clusters, which typically have a different task-distribution model.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
~!!~!!1~!sevenb@~!@~!
Do you have a point, or just an IP address and time on your hands?
http://cgi.ebay.ca/MICROSOFT-XBOX-360-PREMIUM-IMAG E-OF-JESUS-ON-BACK_W0QQitemZ8237687928QQcategoryZ6 2054QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
*inserts foot into mouth*
Sorry 'bout that
A custom CPU like that is for all intents and purposes unbreakable (well unless you happen to have equipment for opening up your particular CPU and poking around in it). Damn. I don't know of many modding crews with scanning tunnelling microscopes...
A friend of mine once suggested a rather low tech but interesting anti modding solution: drip epoxy all over the pins for the BIOS and CPU. If you can't make a physical connection to the chips...
Linux is bad mmmkey? b'cause.... Linux is bad mmmkey?
Aside from not being able to play hacked games, I have a feeling Sony will allow anything to be run on the linux system. What restrictions there will be, I don't know. However, this greatly reduces the legal uses of illegal hacks, and would make prosecution of modders and mod sites much easier, along with reducing the number of coders on the job. Might reduce the number of linux hackers who would bother figuring out how to mod it.
I have freaks! I did something right...
Well, having lived with several of them, most Aussies are children.
Let's follow the thought trail.(1)
Cell phone provider: Here's this cell phone we control utterly.
Consumer:???
Result one: Product doesn't sell and companies go back to what does.
Result two: Product is purchased and no one can complain because they willfully accepted the terms.
As for this:
"This is not just about DRM for "copyright protection", it's about monetizing everything subscribers might want to do with their phones."
Some might use DRM that way, but for content providers sick of decades of getting the middle finger from the thoughtless, or selfish (you didn't think "illegal copyright violations" started yesterday, did you?) DRM will be their chance to return the favour (karma dude.)
(1) I should likewise point out that this though process applies to everything consumers purchase. The fact that consumers not only willfully chose not to exercise this option when they could, but took the easy way out by relying on unethical actions (some backed by technology), gains them no sympathy from me when the hammer comes down on them.
No new Slashdot main stories for 9 hours and counting...
They want to see how long it takes until one of us hacks into the site to post a new story.
I just heard some sad news on IRC - Slashdot Editor CmdrTaco was found dead in front of his computer this afternoon. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to geek culture. Truly a Slashdot icon, and his picture will be turned into one soon.
"this is all good practice for them so that oneday they'll be able to make a computer that will only run windows and signed code. then they'll claim that anyone not using their secure platform must be a hacker or software/music pirate. then they lobby the .gov. then they have no competitors."
Anyone want to take a crack at why this is insightful +4? At best the "they might learn from the cracking attempts" rates a one (Apple's learning too). All the rest is basically *guess*guess*guess* and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist (these pretend conclusions work best in a vacuum). Of course there might be two additional points just from the subtle nod to Pavlov, although I would take away one for unoriginality, and predictability. e.g. government response, MS takes over the world, competitors willing go to the gas chamber, etc.
Xbox 360 doesn't have built-in wireless. It is optional, USB 2.0-based and not particularly cost-effective. Might be better to use a 3rd party interface.
Also, it has 10/100 wired ethernet support that you didn't mention.
The rest is right on.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
going through slashdot withdrawl symptoms...!!!
faaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!
It's true no man is an island, but if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, they make a good raft.
"Simply replace every single part if nothing else helps." - if you had to replace every single part, then it wouldn't be hacking the same piece of hardware!
"He who throws mud, loses ground." - proverb
No the Australian name would be Fee60.
We don't pronouce our R's very well.
"Call us when the New age is old enough to drink" Beck
"Actually TCG hardware has been in deployment for a long time. Search for "TPM" in the specifications of your high-end laptop. But the Xbox 360 is certainly indeed the first wide-scale TC-like platform aimed at reducing the freedom of consumers."
I agree. Every consumer should be entitled to buying a copy of a game. Copying it (multiple times is best), and hand those copies to their friend(s), and so on and so fourth. Freedom works best when it's attached to a game one didn't pay for.
"And, yes, "doing it for fun" is a perfectly valid answer, but there's no need to Bakersfield chimp on the OP. ;-)"
Waaaaaaah!!! But he was going to take my toys away! *sniff*
Just the specs of the xbox 360 seem great. Good luck finding a computer with 3 x 3.2 GHZ processors at Best Buy. The ATI graphics card is good enough to play all the latest games. Half a gig of ram. The power supply apparently sucks but that can be replaced, and probably will be fixed on the next batch.
I would love to have a small computer with these specs and at a similar price. No wonder people want to hack it.
As long as thier are grad students, linux will be ported to anything that can processes assembly instructions.
Look, I think getting Linux running on some random platform is interesting, and the Xbox 360 may actually have a fair amount of horsepower. But aren't there better things for people to be spending their time and money on that would contribute more to the future of open source? So, instead of hacking the Xbox, how about developing hardware that's open by design?
If people took the money they're going to spend on reverse engineering the Xbox and spent it instead on open hardware development, we'd already have open GPU's, sound cards, motherboards, you name it.
At the same time, open source is borne out of everyone doing whatever they find to be most fascinating, and it's that freedom that has resulted in many people developing open source software that is useful to everyone, whether intentionally or by accident.
But how competent do you have to be to make sure the program stops receiving data when the buffer is full?
It's a matter of speed and simplicity, not necessarily competency. A lot of buffer overflows involve the mismanagement of strings. In a computer's memory, they're generally represented as a series of bytes (number of bytes per character depends on whether you use ASCII/Unicode/some other "wide" format). The string/series of characters ends with a special NULL character (0). The simplest, fastest code, and hence the code used in time-sensitive games, is to blindly copy bytes until a NULL is found.
So, if you have a 128-byte buffer, and you feed it a 129-byte string, the last byte will overwrite some code in memory. I believe this is why some builds of Linux don't allow the same parts of memory to contain both code and data - if your data buffer overflows into code, you can overwrite normally secure code with your own. If memory contains only data, the worst you've done is corrupt otehr data, not the program itself.
It's easy enough to check for buffer overruns. It's not a matter of competency - writing Halo 2 and Perfect Dark require a high degree of competency, for example - but a matter of speed. If you can save a few processor in memory optimization (even at the expense of a security risk) you just made the game run that many frames per second faster.
DATABASE WOW WOW
"The real danger is that the 360 represents some of the first real shooting in the DRM wars: a large-scale deployment of hard-wired cryptographic restrictions with the sole purpose of locking consumers out of their own property."
*sticks purchased game into his xBox 360*
What's that about "locked out"? What you really ment to say is that the GEEKS (an entitelly different species) are locked out. The consumer who buys an xBox 360 will be happy because his CONSOLE will do what it's advertised to do. When it fails to do that THEN you will have a point.
Linux, only for geeks? Of the things that Linux needs to do, this is not one. This is more wasted effort, when effort needs to be put into useful things to promote free stuff. This won't hold MS from ruling the roost for a long time to come.
No wonder Linux is for geeks. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Didjaevernotice that all this place ever does is talk about Microsoft this and Microsoft that. Wouldn't it be nice if on every page at microsoft.com you saw MS talking about Linux? It knows that's not a good idea. If we here can't talk about Linux as Linux, what's the point? Is there nothing left? Is it the over, like Slackware is over?
Someone tell me, why are we talking about Microsoft again and again and again and again and again and again...???
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
Whenever I want to give karma for funny posts, I use Underrated --it's not used that often, and it's almost true...
I speak England very best
anybody notice xbox.com is currently down??
Server is Unavailable
Troubleshooting Tips
* The web server may be too busy to accept your request. Try again at a later time.
* Click the Refresh button, or try again later.
* Go back to Xbox.com Home.
Technical Information
* The server encountered an unexpected condition which prevented it from fulfilling the request.
First, let me say that I was not trolling, and I surprised at how many people saw it that way.
:). But what was running the show? A sub-4MHz 16-bit variation of the venerable 6502. And why did Nintendo do that? Because you can't make a system be accross-the-board high-end unless you price yourself out of the market. They put in killer graphics and below par power elsewhere. The same principle applies to all consoles, including the Xbox 360.
Obviously the Xbox 360 and a desktop PC are quite different beasts, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for the former. The big difference--and this is generally true of all consoles--is that you get some extremely high-end performance out a console in some specialized areas, almost always at the expense of general across-the-board performance. Take the Super Nintendo. It could blit an amazing amount of stuff to the screen: 80 sprites per scan line, three full-screen backgrounds, transparency, etc. It completely blew away PC performance at the time. Yes, including the Amiga
Mostly I find "Let's put Linux on it!" to be an odd reaction. I think what people want is for the hardware to be open, for documentation and development kits to be freely available. But that doesn't mean "Linux." I suspect those comments come from people who don't have a clear picture of what "operating system" means, people who think you need a big OS in order to write code. In reality, you hardly need an OS at all. You just need some very basic hooks.