Well ok, some joe-users are smarter than we give them credit for. But Cd's are made to autorun, it's only when that fails that users have to click Start/Run/X:setup.exe. That or they get their grand kid/nephew/smart friend down the street to do it for them.
Now I'm a bit biased in my statements, because my vision of a ideal software distribution environment is far off from what anyone currently has. Heres what I think would be ideal:
1) Treat applications as data
Applications are data, just as any other kind of data is data. The only difference is that applications are data that can be 'understood' by the computer. With this in mind, it is plausible to cache applications files just like a browser caches images. One could run an application by simply clicking on the link, For example if you want to run OpenOffice, go to their home page and click RUN OPENOFFICE. The app is automatically installed and run. Perhaps you may have your own page out on the net with links to various apps, or bookmarks to your favorite apps.
2) All application data is out there on a big peer-2-peer network.
When you click on a link (as mentioned above)... you are not directed to a server... but to a peer-2-peer network from which you get your files. The app files are loaded into your local application cache and run. Incidentally, the apps in your cache are being shared with others. As new versions of the application appear, your cache recieves the updated files.
3) User-created data is stored locally (or in a network share if explicitly directed by the user). Apps have the permissions to create and access only files they created.
Generally speaking, an application can only access the data it was used to create. The operating system should enforce this, unless the user specifically allows the application to touch some other file. This may be the case where you created the file in PhotoShop but now want to edit it in the Gimp.
4) In connection with point 3, the operating system is aware of what Apps created what files and will launch the correct app to edit the file.
All this is similar to what Sun was trying to do with Java when it first came out. Java conceptually was a great idea but is crippled in many ways. First of all, Java had no access to the local machine without having to harass the user for extra priviledges. The virtual machine is slow, making for very bad performance even on fairly good hardware. Also, Java apps are downloaded from a single server. If the server is bogged down or broken, the application cannot be used. It was a step in the right direction but poorly executed.
>Only because people like you have conditioned >them to. People got along just fine with >command lines in the DOS/Win 3.1 days. >Sure they prefer a GUI,
I think you hit it right on the head there. They *got along* with a command line because they had to, but the GUI won out. Why go backwards? Microsoft could have reasoned the same thing back in 1993- if they had we'd all probably be using Macintosh right now. Theres so many people out there than can barely find keys on the keyboard... we should be going out of our way to make them type as little as possible.
Also, I forgot to mention Red Carpet.. the installer from Ximian. Red Carpet works great, unfortunately the software selection is pretty much useless unless you want to download Evolution or the files you already have on CD.
The command line is a big no-no for the general public. If you tell an ordinary user they got to go to the command line for anything... even to type the word "install", they're just gonna laugh at you.
I'm not deriding the command line, I use it alot myself- but expecting people to type words in a blank black screen is gonna get us nowwhere.
I personally think LindowsOS (Linux) has got it right. I don't think their product is solid enough that I would use it, but they got the right idea regarding installation. You click on a link on their website and wham, the app is installed and ready to run. You can't get any simpler than that.
Mandrakes URPMI (with X rpmdrake) front is also a close contender. The only problem with that is there is no auto-configuration of the software source locations. You manually have to choose which FTP sites your files will come from. Their software catalog at MandrakeClub is decent, but could be organized in a way in which apps are easier to find.
I love RPM's, and I hear apt-get is pretty good though I've never used it. In the last year or so, the quality of the RPM's I've downloaded has increased dramatically. For the most part they have installed cleanly, and even put icons in the KDE menu for me.
My only gripe is that I have to enter my root password everytime I install a package. I don't run as root, but their must be a intelligent way of doing this. We could sudo the installer to be run by a particular user, but then we'd have to find a way to make sure it's the person physically sitting at the keyboard, not some one who managed to hack their way in. If someone could fix that, I'd be happy.
I don't like MAN or INFO, I wish all documentation was in searchable HTML format. These were both made for the command line (yes I know about the X based viewers), but don't do much for a graphical desktop. Full searchable HTML documentation with pictures and diagrams; fully integrated with the desktop environment. Each app can have it's own HELP menu, each system utility can have help under the KDE (or Gnome) system help menu. Really this stuff should be centralized, I hate having to hunt all over for readme's and doc files. I know I can find most stuff under/usr/doc but I don't expect most beginners to know that.
I've just been informed that Linux software was used in the research and discovery of this new particle. As you are well aware, we own the copyrights to Linux and all derivitive works and discoveries. Therefore, it is my duty to inform you that if make use of the "Mystery Meson" particle in your person, or other earthly posessions... you must purchase a license immediately.
Mozilla is a prime example of the virtues of open source verses closed propriatary software (ex: IE). When Mozilla was way overdue, people called it dead. From a market share perspective maybe they were right. However because of taking the time to do it right, Mozilla is now the best (if not most popular) browser around. Because of this, those are innovative enough to come up with new features are going to choose Mozilla first to implement their ideas. Some of the guys from Netscape (the real innovators, not the ones who were just there for a paycheck) probably have a few good ideas left in them.
Heres my brief review of my Mandrake 9.2. I was going to write up a big review of my whole experience of upgrading but this story came up to soon. So here goes...
The installer is hands down the best installer for Linux I have ever used. They've managed to improve it quite alot from 9.1, it asks me less questions and just plain works. I noticed there is only *1* advertisement show during installation. I'm sure most of you would be happy about this, I think it's kinda sad because this has to be bad for Mandrakes bottom line.
As for the OS itself, some nice improvements to be noted. It does indeed seem to be quicker and more optimized then the previous version. It does have a few notable bugs though. I noticed things mysteriously dissapear off the menu in KDE when installing new software. This seems to have gone away since I applied all the updates. Also, in the startup sequence... networking reports a [FAILED] condition although it actually appears to work. These things were annoying but I managed to find work arounds.
Lastly, it looks like they have made a pretty good effort to remove some of the clutter they were previously infamous for. No longer is there 50 text editor, 20 shells, and other junk to sift through on the menu. They pretty much stick to basics which is a nice improvement.
I can testify that Blender has been making steady but good progress since 2.23. The last release I have tried (2.28) added some really nice enhancements when it comes to selecting faces and edges. I too feel inclined to defend the user interface in Blender. Sure it can use improvement but it's not as bad as some people say it is. 3D modelling is by nature a difficult task, so it's not possible to dumb down the interface as much as some people would like. Blender has excellent mouse navigation and shortcut key commands. Some of the tools (like perportional vertex editing) work very intuitively. The buttons need alot of work though, more work should be put into organizing the buttons into logical groups (perhaps by using tabs). Built in help would also be nice.
I've posted a little of the work I've done in Blender... visit my website below
Microsoft already points their browsers to MSN.com by default, but amazingly many people know better and switch their search page to Google. So if Google didn't need any help from Microsoft before, why would they need it now? Thankfully this tactic hasn't worked as well for micro$oft as they had originally hoped.
"Your humble author suggests that SCO found themselves requiring a multithreaded web server, and as SCO UNIX is based on an ancient version of The UNIX spec it just couldn't cope;-)."
Noooooooo, that isn't it. Maybe that would have been the case if SCO had customers, heck they could run MS Personal Web Server and do just fine.
I don't think it's always technical. A few years ago it seemed like most comments in regard to Java were positive, but when it became evident that it wasn't really "free" in the same sense as is perl or python... then lots of people started bashing it. Though like many languages has it's flaws, it still remains a solid language. The same with VB, virtually no-one in *this* audience considers VB a great language, which is reinforced by the fact that no-one's really putting much effort into creating a VB like tool for Linux (albeit there are several dead projects that have tried). It's a shame because VB actually works quite well for a particular niche- quickly developing business apps. In the case of VB, I can safely predict most people here will not give it credit because of it's links to Monopolysoft.
I agree with the gist of most of the comments in that browser innovation is important, however I think it pails in comparison to the innovation of good web development tools in Linux.
It saddens me that the best linux has to offer are fancy HTML editors, no serious contenders in WYSIWYG design. I've used just about all of them, Bluefish, Quanta+, Mozilla Composer, and even the commercial IBM Homepage builder and with the exception of IBM's product... none of them even come close to what I want. And as for IBM's editor, it was released three years ago and I'm not sure it's even supported anymore. As it stands, having something that rivals the abilities of tools such as DreamWeaver, Macromedia shockwave and flash are just a pipe dream for linux.
I think Sun is starting to realize that Solaris is a dead end market share wise. This is no reflection on the quality of Solaris, just that the only major OS's to experience growth are Windows and Linux (and maybe OSX to a very small degree). Besides, companies like the idea of standardizing on a platform. For many that choice is Microsoft. If they don't like Micro$oft, then maybe they'll go with something else. But they probably wont go with three different things... for example Linux, Solaris, and AIX. So a smart company will give the customer what it wants- the ability to use standardize on a platform of choice.
I'm assuming Tivo doesn't own a patent on their TV recording technology. This will be good for us in the long run but bad for them because as soon as something becomes a commodity, it's hard to make a buck off it. If they were smarter, I think they would have patented the thing (or bought the patent from whoever owns it) and licensed it out for zero to little cash until a large market for such devices arises. Then charge a reasonable rate for a proven/valuable technology.
Well I'll throw in my own personal review for anyone who wishes to compare notes.
Overall I'm pretty happy with Mandrake 9.0, although I was upset that it featured a few new annoyances. Heres my list of pro's and con's so far that I've noticed:
Pro's ------ My HP printer FINALLY works right. KDE3 installed by default. A couple of nice new apps (Mr. Project) Control Panel much better (in some areas)
Cons ------ OpenOffice is broken. Spell check does not work. Some packages that I still need were removed and I had to get them elsewhere.
- libdvdread
- libvga
- libdvdnav MySQL will not launch on startup even though I set it up to. Setting ENV variables in/etc/profile no longer work. xscreensavers not visible on the KDE menu anymore.
Aside from the annoying glitches, the printer support and default KDE install are worth it for me. But I hope they fix this stuff in the next release.
Can this be sufficiently answered until alot more people are using Linux? I mean over 90% of people use Windows still... so probably a equally great percentage of hackers spend their time trying to break it. Since security problems are usually pretty obscure until someone very dedicated finds it, who's to know what's lurking in Linux. I personally don't feel linux has really gone through the 'trial by fire' needed to prove it's secureness.
Now in theory it can be very secure, it is based on Unix which has a good record. However Linux has surpassed traditional Unix's in features- and with more features comes more complexity and more breaking points. The old assumptions about it being a unix shouldn't be highly regarded.
Linux can really be more secure than windows, but lets not go touting it as fact until it's survived mainstream use.
Hmnnn, I hadn't thought of that. I guess that proves you are smarter than me. But then again, there must be someone smarter than you... and him... and him.
It doesn't matter if you hire the smartest people you can find... theres always someone out there smarter. Microsoft may have put it's best people behind it's security initiative, but there are always going to be people out there that are more intelligent- not to mention more motivated. Or to make this a bit simpler... I think there are more people who want to hack the Xbox then there who don't want it hacked- it's pretty obvious who's gonna win. All MS will do is going to do is make it more challenging and guess what... theres plenty of people who like challenges. The more challenging it is, the more it's "just gotta" be hacked.
Considering Word is perhaps the most buggiest piece of crap in the MS office suite (Excel & Access are relatively good)- I'm not sure MS is losing too much with the passing of this guy. Still it is interesting that MS isn't making a big issue about the IP this guy contributed. Maybe cause' it aint very good.
- Mod me down if you love Microsoft, I don't care anymore since I can't see my score. WHAT'S UP WITH THAT!
Well, I'm not a kernel and FS guru either... but I'll offer you my limited understanding of it.
A journaling filesystem is a system that keeps a transaction log of what it's about to do before it actually does it. Don't ask me how it does it but it sticks it somewhere on the disk... then actually performs the real changes to the disk. The reasoning is that if your system crashes hard, the next time you reboot your computer can look at that journal (of what it was gonna do) and then complete doing it. I don't think this saves you from losing your file in the middle of a 50MB wav save... but at least the integrity of the file system itself doesn't get left in a mangled state. If anyone else has a better explanation... please feel free to correct me.
I'm no expert on the subject but last I know there were some GL bindings for Java. It would be cool to have the robots battle in 3D space (with some real physics thrown in). Maybe in Robocode version 20.
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Well ok, some joe-users are smarter than we give them credit for. But Cd's are made to autorun, it's only when that fails that users have to click Start/Run/X:setup.exe. That or they get their grand kid/nephew/smart friend down the street to do it for them.
Now I'm a bit biased in my statements, because my vision of a ideal software distribution environment is far off from what anyone currently has. Heres what I think would be ideal:
1) Treat applications as data
Applications are data, just as any other kind of data is data. The only difference is that applications are data that can be 'understood' by the computer. With this in mind, it is plausible to cache applications files just like a browser caches images. One could run an application by simply clicking on the link, For example if you want to run OpenOffice, go to their home page and click RUN OPENOFFICE. The app is automatically installed and run. Perhaps you may have your own page out on the net with links to various apps, or bookmarks to your favorite apps.
2) All application data is out there on a big peer-2-peer network.
When you click on a link (as mentioned above)... you are not directed to a server... but to a peer-2-peer network from which you get your files. The app files are loaded into your local application cache and run. Incidentally, the apps in your cache are being shared with others. As new versions of the application appear, your cache recieves the updated files.
3) User-created data is stored locally (or in a network share if explicitly directed by the user). Apps have the permissions to create and access only files they created.
Generally speaking, an application can only access the data it was used to create. The operating system should enforce this, unless the user specifically allows the application to touch some other file. This may be the case where you created the file in PhotoShop but now want to edit it in the Gimp.
4) In connection with point 3, the operating system is aware of what Apps created what files and will launch the correct app to edit the file.
All this is similar to what Sun was trying to do with Java when it first came out. Java conceptually was a great idea but is crippled in many ways. First of all, Java had no access to the local machine without having to harass the user for extra priviledges. The virtual machine is slow, making for very bad performance even on fairly good hardware. Also, Java apps are downloaded from a single server. If the server is bogged down or broken, the application cannot be used. It was a step in the right direction but poorly executed.
>Only because people like you have conditioned
>them to. People got along just fine with
>command lines in the DOS/Win 3.1 days.
>Sure they prefer a GUI,
I think you hit it right on the head there. They *got along* with a command line because they had to, but the GUI won out. Why go backwards? Microsoft could have reasoned the same thing back in 1993- if they had we'd all probably be using Macintosh right now. Theres so many people out there than can barely find keys on the keyboard... we should be going out of our way to make them type as little as possible.
Also, I forgot to mention Red Carpet.. the installer from Ximian. Red Carpet works great, unfortunately the software selection is pretty much useless unless you want to download Evolution or the files you already have on CD.
I think your missing the point...
The command line is a big no-no for the general public. If you tell an ordinary user they got to go to the command line for anything... even to type the word "install", they're just gonna laugh at you.
I'm not deriding the command line, I use it alot myself- but expecting people to type words in a blank black screen is gonna get us nowwhere.
I personally think LindowsOS (Linux) has got it right. I don't think their product is solid enough that I would use it, but they got the right idea regarding installation. You click on a link on their website and wham, the app is installed and ready to run. You can't get any simpler than that.
Mandrakes URPMI (with X rpmdrake) front is also a close contender. The only problem with that is there is no auto-configuration of the software source locations. You manually have to choose which FTP sites your files will come from. Their software catalog at MandrakeClub is decent, but could be organized in a way in which apps are easier to find.
Everyone, I don't agree at all.
I love RPM's, and I hear apt-get is pretty good though I've never used it. In the last year or so, the quality of the RPM's I've downloaded has increased dramatically. For the most part they have installed cleanly, and even put icons in the KDE menu for me.
My only gripe is that I have to enter my root password everytime I install a package. I don't run as root, but their must be a intelligent way of doing this. We could sudo the installer to be run by a particular user, but then we'd have to find a way to make sure it's the person physically sitting at the keyboard, not some one who managed to hack their way in. If someone could fix that, I'd be happy.
Well I'll toss in my 2 cents,
/usr/doc but I don't expect most beginners to know that.
I don't like MAN or INFO, I wish all documentation was in searchable HTML format. These were both made for the command line (yes I know about the X based viewers), but don't do much for a graphical desktop. Full searchable HTML documentation with pictures and diagrams; fully integrated with the desktop environment. Each app can have it's own HELP menu, each system utility can have help under the KDE (or Gnome) system help menu. Really this stuff should be centralized, I hate having to hunt all over for readme's and doc files. I know I can find most stuff under
I've just been informed that Linux software was used in the research and discovery of this new particle. As you are well aware, we own the copyrights to Linux and all derivitive works and discoveries. Therefore, it is my duty to inform you that if make use of the "Mystery Meson" particle in your person, or other earthly posessions... you must purchase a license immediately.
*Sorry, I havn't had my SCO fix lately*
That's ok.
:-)
I'll order a recall for my hoard of evil minnions that are headed for your door.
I hope this isn't too far off topic
Mozilla is a prime example of the virtues of open source verses closed propriatary software (ex: IE). When Mozilla was way overdue, people called it dead. From a market share perspective maybe they were right. However because of taking the time to do it right, Mozilla is now the best (if not most popular) browser around. Because of this, those are innovative enough to come up with new features are going to choose Mozilla first to implement their ideas. Some of the guys from Netscape (the real innovators, not the ones who were just there for a paycheck) probably have a few good ideas left in them.
Heres my brief review of my Mandrake 9.2. I was going to write up a big review of my whole experience of upgrading but this story came up to soon. So here goes...
The installer is hands down the best installer for Linux I have ever used. They've managed to improve it quite alot from 9.1, it asks me less questions and just plain works. I noticed there is only *1* advertisement show during installation. I'm sure most of you would be happy about this, I think it's kinda sad because this has to be bad for Mandrakes bottom line.
As for the OS itself, some nice improvements to be noted. It does indeed seem to be quicker and more optimized then the previous version. It does have a few notable bugs though. I noticed things mysteriously dissapear off the menu in KDE when installing new software. This seems to have gone away since I applied all the updates. Also, in the startup sequence... networking reports a [FAILED] condition although it actually appears to work. These things were annoying but I managed to find work arounds.
Lastly, it looks like they have made a pretty good effort to remove some of the clutter they were previously infamous for. No longer is there 50 text editor, 20 shells, and other junk to sift through on the menu. They pretty much stick to basics which is a nice improvement.
I can testify that Blender has been making steady but good progress since 2.23. The last release I have tried (2.28) added some really nice enhancements when it comes to selecting faces and edges. I too feel inclined to defend the user interface in Blender. Sure it can use improvement but it's not as bad as some people say it is. 3D modelling is by nature a difficult task, so it's not possible to dumb down the interface as much as some people would like. Blender has excellent mouse navigation and shortcut key commands. Some of the tools (like perportional vertex editing) work very intuitively. The buttons need alot of work though, more work should be put into organizing the buttons into logical groups (perhaps by using tabs). Built in help would also be nice.
I've posted a little of the work I've done in Blender... visit my website below
Microsoft already points their browsers to MSN.com by default, but amazingly many people know better and switch their search page to Google. So if Google didn't need any help from Microsoft before, why would they need it now? Thankfully this tactic hasn't worked as well for micro$oft as they had originally hoped.
I say we call it CRASHTER
"Your humble author suggests that SCO found themselves requiring a multithreaded web server, and as SCO UNIX is based on an ancient version of The UNIX spec it just couldn't cope ;-)."
Noooooooo, that isn't it. Maybe that would have been the case if SCO had customers, heck they could run MS Personal Web Server and do just fine.
I don't think it's always technical. A few years ago it seemed like most comments in regard to Java were positive, but when it became evident that it wasn't really "free" in the same sense as is perl or python... then lots of people started bashing it. Though like many languages has it's flaws, it still remains a solid language. The same with VB, virtually no-one in *this* audience considers VB a great language, which is reinforced by the fact that no-one's really putting much effort into creating a VB like tool for Linux (albeit there are several dead projects that have tried). It's a shame because VB actually works quite well for a particular niche- quickly developing business apps. In the case of VB, I can safely predict most people here will not give it credit because of it's links to Monopolysoft.
Thanks for mentioning True Stories, that's one of my favorites too. I don't know another movie quite like it, quirky and unique.
I agree with the gist of most of the comments in that browser innovation is important, however I think it pails in comparison to the innovation of good web development tools in Linux.
It saddens me that the best linux has to offer are fancy HTML editors, no serious contenders in WYSIWYG design. I've used just about all of them, Bluefish, Quanta+, Mozilla Composer, and even the commercial IBM Homepage builder and with the exception of IBM's product... none of them even come close to what I want. And as for IBM's editor, it was released three years ago and I'm not sure it's even supported anymore. As it stands, having something that rivals the abilities of tools such as DreamWeaver, Macromedia shockwave and flash are just a pipe dream for linux.
I think Sun is starting to realize that Solaris is a dead end market share wise. This is no reflection on the quality of Solaris, just that the only major OS's to experience growth are Windows and Linux (and maybe OSX to a very small degree). Besides, companies like the idea of standardizing on a platform. For many that choice is Microsoft. If they don't like Micro$oft, then maybe they'll go with something else. But they probably wont go with three different things... for example Linux, Solaris, and AIX. So a smart company will give the customer what it wants- the ability to use standardize on a platform of choice.
I'm assuming Tivo doesn't own a patent on their TV recording technology. This will be good for us in the long run but bad for them because as soon as something becomes a commodity, it's hard to make a buck off it. If they were smarter, I think they would have patented the thing (or bought the patent from whoever owns it) and licensed it out for zero to little cash until a large market for such devices arises. Then charge a reasonable rate for a proven/valuable technology.
Well I'll throw in my own personal review for anyone who wishes to compare notes.
/etc/profile no longer work.
Overall I'm pretty happy with Mandrake 9.0, although I was upset that it featured a few new annoyances. Heres my list of pro's and con's so far that I've noticed:
Pro's
------
My HP printer FINALLY works right.
KDE3 installed by default.
A couple of nice new apps (Mr. Project)
Control Panel much better (in some areas)
Cons
------
OpenOffice is broken. Spell check does not work.
Some packages that I still need were removed and I had to get them elsewhere.
- libdvdread
- libvga
- libdvdnav
MySQL will not launch on startup even though I set it up to.
Setting ENV variables in
xscreensavers not visible on the KDE menu anymore.
Aside from the annoying glitches, the printer support and default KDE install are worth it for me. But I hope they fix this stuff in the next release.
Can this be sufficiently answered until alot more people are using Linux? I mean over 90% of people use Windows still... so probably a equally great percentage of hackers spend their time trying to break it. Since security problems are usually pretty obscure until someone very dedicated finds it, who's to know what's lurking in Linux. I personally don't feel linux has really gone through the 'trial by fire' needed to prove it's secureness.
Now in theory it can be very secure, it is based on Unix which has a good record. However Linux has surpassed traditional Unix's in features- and with more features comes more complexity and more breaking points. The old assumptions about it being a unix shouldn't be highly regarded.
Linux can really be more secure than windows, but lets not go touting it as fact until it's survived mainstream use.
Hmnnn, I hadn't thought of that. I guess that proves you are smarter than me. But then again, there must be someone smarter than you... and him... and him.
It doesn't matter if you hire the smartest people you can find... theres always someone out there smarter. Microsoft may have put it's best people behind it's security initiative, but there are always going to be people out there that are more intelligent- not to mention more motivated. Or to make this a bit simpler... I think there are more people who want to hack the Xbox then there who don't want it hacked- it's pretty obvious who's gonna win. All MS will do is going to do is make it more challenging and guess what... theres plenty of people who like challenges. The more challenging it is, the more it's "just gotta" be hacked.
Considering Word is perhaps the most buggiest piece of crap in the MS office suite (Excel & Access are relatively good)- I'm not sure MS is losing too much with the passing of this guy. Still it is interesting that MS isn't making a big issue about the IP this guy contributed. Maybe cause' it aint very good.
- Mod me down if you love Microsoft, I don't care anymore since I can't see my score. WHAT'S UP WITH THAT!
Well, I'm not a kernel and FS guru either... but I'll offer you my limited understanding of it.
A journaling filesystem is a system that keeps a transaction log of what it's about to do before it actually does it. Don't ask me how it does it but it sticks it somewhere on the disk... then actually performs the real changes to the disk. The reasoning is that if your system crashes hard, the next time you reboot your computer can look at that journal (of what it was gonna do) and then complete doing it. I don't think this saves you from losing your file in the middle of a 50MB wav save... but at least the integrity of the file system itself doesn't get left in a mangled state. If anyone else has a better explanation... please feel free to correct me.
I'm no expert on the subject but last I know there were some GL bindings for Java. It would be cool to have the robots battle in 3D space (with some real physics thrown in). Maybe in Robocode version 20.