I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem with these game companies (and all companies nowadays, but I don't want to get started on that, I'll have carpal tunnel by the time I'm done typing my rant) is that they literally expect to be catered to. They don't want "customers", they want serfs.
I had a weird argument this morning which actually provides a good example of this mentality.
Over the past four years or so, I've missed maybe four appointments with my dentist. I always made them up shortly afterwards, and I've always paid my bills on time so I figured everyone was happy. Silly me. My dentist sent me a nasty letter today, saying that if I don't shape up, they'll "discharge me from their care". There was a big section containing a guilt trip for missing an appointment, on how dental care is "a 50-50 relationship", and on how a slacker like me isn't "holding up my end of the bargain". Then a nice threatening tone, and a command to "think very seriously about whether you want to continue to be a client of this office".
I cancelled all my future appointments and told them where they could stick their dental services. The secretary got all nasty with me, too, demanding that I apologize for missing appointments and all this kind of crap. Her whole attitude is "how DARE you question us? We're DENTISTS!" It was really amazing. I told her, look, lady, as long as I'm paying YOU, you don't get to talk shit to me, ok? You don't get to write me nasty letters and you don't get to yell at me on the phone. Cancel all my appointments, I'm not your customer anymore.
I had to hang up. She was going to blow a gasket. And the weird thing is, I had a real perception that she thought she was on the side of the angels or something! She really seemed to think she was defending her poor, beleaguered dentist from a horrible, slacker "client".
Whatever. It's all about power. The only appropriate response is to vote with your feet.
Looks like Nintendo might pull an interesting hat trick this year, eh?
So, publishers are bent out of shape that games last for years, and we all trade them back and forth in the same way used CDs, tapes, and records have been for decades? They're afraid we're going to stop buying new games because we're buying used ones? They want more money (that goes without saying)?
Yeah. Cry me a river. Here are my thoughts:
1. The game industry is making money hand over fist. They may WANT a license to print money, they may feel that all of us gamers should spend all our income on their brand new stuff and never look for a bargain, but tough luck -- the world doesn't work that way. If we all got whatever we wanted, whenever I got lonely or horny I'd clap my hands, yell "Doughnut!" and a gorgeous hottie with an oral fixation would appear. See -- I just clapped. NOTHING! So why should they get whatever fool thing THEY want?
2. Used games COME FROM SOMEWHERE. They don't just suddenly appear, the Used Game Fairy doesn't bring them around in her "naughty nurse" uniform, and they're not gifts from aliens. Every used game was purchased by someone, brand new, at some point. So, the game publishers DID get paid for them! Their problem is, they're not getting paid for them ANY MORE. Again, too fucking bad. That's life. I'd love it if my ex girlfriend had to come over three times a week and do me, but she doesn't (too damn stubborn).
3. A PURCHASE IS A PURCHASE. Once we buy our games fair and square, we can sell them to anybody we want to. We can trade them for cigarettes and beer if we feel like it. We can give them to homeless people to use as ninja stars when fratboys annoy them. We can do whatever we like with them. BECAUSE WE BOUGHT THEM, for much more than they're conceivably worth, by the way. All the pissing and moaning in the world won't convince me that once I buy a game, I shouldn't sell it or trade it in for a new one. It's mine, I'll do whatever I want with it.
4. FINALLY, seriously now, isn't it ridiculous that they're now trying to pretend that it's the used game market that causes game companies to put out derivative dreck? YEAH, I see how that works. It's not that game companies are pushing their developers to exhaustion, outsourcing a lot of their activities, making UNBELIEVABLY shitty movie tie-in games (if you can call them games), and in general, treating the public like they'll buy anything if they put the right face on the package. Oh, no, if sales slow down it must be because all the customers are EVIL! Yeah, we're all just penny-pinching Meanies. I see...
Well, that's my rant for now. I'll leave you with this thought:
Do I buy a lot of used games? Yes, I do.
Do I buy a lot of new games? Well, actually, yes on that one also.
Am I a freeloader? NO. I spend more money on this crap than most people.
Do I feel like anyone appreciates my business? NO.
You know, this stuff isn't that complicated. It's about treating me like a customer, appreciating my business, and giving me good value. If you can't do that, there's nothing you can sell me.
"Don't your coworkers kill time in waiting rooms or whatever playing cell/pda games? Or solitaire on the pc when nobody is watching? no online gambling? not even fantasy football/golf etc.? brickout on their iPod? No palms or pocket pcs? I'd be surprised."
Heh... I KNEW you were in a more modern environment! The fact that you take such things as normal proves that you're in a pretty good spot.
In my last job, very few people even OWNED a PDA, much less were good enough with one to install and play a game on it. Lots of people here don't even have their own computers outside of work, which boggles the mind -- these people are supposed to be programmers and sysadmins! How can they not own a PC??? It's completely astonishing. Then there are the guys who are SO CLOSE to being into it, but who can't let go of the "it's a TOOL, not a TOY, damnit!" mentality. These are the guys who go out and buy a top-of-the-line PC, and then install nothing but Oracle and.Net on it, so they can work at home. Uuuuhhhhhhhhgh. SO depressing.
Down in New York City, there are a lot more people like you describe, but in my line of work the money (and the job security) is up here in the Capital District. Unfortunately, it's a social dead zone for geeks, like a big tar pit of boring. Ah, well...
Listen, it's been pretty cool chatting with you. I'm glad to have made your acquaintance.:)
So, you counter my point that violent crime has dropped by half with a rambling about NON-VIOLENT crime, then re-iterate your assertion that violent crime is on the rise?
You, sir, are a ding-bat. Congradulations. You're the first person I've met recently who has earned that very silly, old-fashioned title.
So the government wants to expand its powers. Less of those nasty "rights" to get in their way when they want to pinch someone, for example, or maybe ridiculously long prison sentences for some poor schmuck who got caught with a pot cigarette. Whatever. Those in power want more of it. Now, how do they con the rest of us into letting them have more power?
Simple. First, they put a scare into rubes like you. OH MY GOD, they yell, POTHEADS ARE GOING TO EAT YOUR CHILDREN AND DO IT TO YOUR WIFE if you don't help us pass this here bill that allows civil forfeiture of property, etc, etc. And guys like you don't even apply reason to the conversation. You just bend over for The Man. In fact, you're so brainwashed you probably write your congressman ASKING him to curtail your civil rights.
And no matter WHAT they do or how far they go, your brainwashing is so complete that you feel frightened in your suburban, completely safe neighborhood. You think, at any moment a mob of crackheads and satanists could come crashing through the door and kill you! So you join the NRA and buy a huge arsenal of guns, collect knives, etc. All to ward off the imaginary crackheads who aren't knocking down your door. And nothing you do makes you feel safe, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO CREDIBLE THREAT TO YOU.
The sad part of this is, you really believe your paranoiac fantasies. Dubya LOVES guys like you. I bet you're not even bothered that the NSA has been spying on Americans for the past four years, without any legal right to. I bet "Extraordinary Rendition" is A-OK in your book. I bet you think that torture is just fine, because they only apply it to "those people", right?
People like you mystify me. You really do. How can you be so gullible, so easily brainwashed? Don't you understand you're just being used? Manipulated?
Sigh... Of course you don't.
Well, I don't have any hopes of snapping you out of it, so just for the hell of it, here are some more links with crime statistics. Of course, they don't agree with your delusions, so you'll yell about how they're just "liberal propaganda" or spout some other silly crypto-fascist bullshit like that.
When I was in the Marine Corps, our platoon commander (a 2nd Lieutenant) was discovered to have a degree in literature. I was mildly surprised, because I hadn't taken him to be particularly bright, but I forgot it, until I had the following conversation (after being mysteriously called on the carpet):
Lt. "Stacklecheck" (our nickname for him, his real name was unspellable): "Ok, P***, I've heard a rumor from some of the other men..."
Me: "Oh?"
Lt. Asshole: "It appears you've been..." (look of disgust appears on his face) "READING BOOKS."
Me: "Urk?"
Lt. Asshole: "Well? What do you have to say for yourself?"
Me: "Is this a joke?"
Lt. Asshole: "A joke!!! A JOKE???"
Me: (to self) Uh oh... (to him): "Uhhhh... Yeah, maybe a little Heinlein, on my free time..."
Lt. Asshole: "This has got to stop. From now on, the only thing I want you reading is to be your Mortar Knowledge."
Me: "Sir, with all due respect, that whole book is only 80 pages long. I've got it memorized, practically. It's not THAT hard, anyway..."
Lt. Asshole: "WELL READ IT AGAIN! Dismissed."
Of course, I completely ignored the stupid prick. But from then on, whenever I wanted to read a book, I had to go hide in the fucking Rope room of our LPD (Landing Platform Dock, a big assault ship, basically).
So, yeah, some literature majors aren't all that into books...
I don't believe there has been ANY change in violence levels in our society. I simply believe that the media has gotten so expanded in its scope that it NOTICES violence much more than it used to. And what the media notices, we notice.
If you really want to know how "violence" has changed over the years, look up the murder rates for major cities. You'll notice that they've been dropping in most localities every year.
Well, that's what I was looking for. Thanks for some conversation!
I wasn't really getting into the reactions people have to violent games, I think that's a separate issue and a more complicated one to boot. Another poster in this thread has been arguing that point with me, and it just isn't that much fun. People tend to take the position they think makes them more mature or reasonable, and you're arguing with a role, not a person, so it kind of kills the joy for me.
What I'm really trying to touch on here is that many people DO see games and gamers as different and weird, and they tend to assume there's something about games that places them way down under TV in the general status pecking order. If you haven't had to put up with this, you've been pretty lucky. Where I live (Albany, NY) most of the people I meet on the job are very staid and square. Government workers, you know? They look at video games as a silly thing children do, but which isn't suitable for grownups. In my old agency, there were only two other guys my age who were into games, plus two college-age interns. Everybody else considered my interest in gaming (more Halo 2 than GTA) an eccentricity at best, a big, red "L" for "Loser" on my forehead at worst. Also, try and find a woman in her thirties who will even admit she tolerates games, much less plays them on purpose -- you won't find any around here.
They also hate science fiction, anime, graphic novels, etc -- all the stuff I like. It's a solitary life.
In my new agency, there's one single person who is into the same things as me. One. But luckily, my new coworkers have much better attitudes. They just think I'm eccentric, not a loser, and find my peccadilloes interesting rather than offputting.
Now, aside from having to live in a place where there is nearly NOBODY around who is interested in the same things as me, and where I do catch some serious abuse simply for enjoying videogames (although not really since switching agencies), I do seem to see more and more articles on the web attacking gaming as an unhealthy activity that leads to addiction. And I do see more and more articles humorously describing gamers as crazed otaku. This is an irritating trend for me.
Although I'm definitely a gamer, I'm also definitely not addicted to anything. I game a few hours here and there, nothing big, I have a great time trying out some new world, solving puzzles, etc -- and when I'm done, I move on to other activities. Now and then, a big blockbuster game will come out, and I'll spend a couple dozen hours beating it (I don't miss work, or anything, but I stay up late). That's about it.
Any objective observer who was to meet me would consider me almost entirely normal -- so normal I'm boring. Aside from an interest in gaming, graphic novels, anime, and science fiction, I don't do anything alarming or strange. I don't drink (much), I never do drugs, I stay so far out of trouble I'm practically not even HERE in Albany, and in general, I'm a pillar of the community. Nice car, nice clothes, you name it.
If gaming doesn't have at least something of a bad rep, why is it that my whole appearance and impression goes right out the window the minute someone finds out I have an XBox? Suddenly I'm a dork in their eyes. How does that happen, exactly? And how is it rational or fair?
So, yeah, I don't think gaming has hit the mainstream yet -- at least not as far as I can see. Maybe where you live things are a little more fun.
I'm relaxed, I'm just debating you. It's not personal or anything.
But my problem with YOU is, keeping in mind that it's an intellectual consideration and not an emotional one,
1. You KNOW you're on Slashdot, which exists so we can amuse ourselves by disagreeing over whatever gets posted, and have a nice, lively debate;
2. Instead of debating me, you try to shut me up with some cockamamie, condescending hippie talk about how I'm fed up with other people and their opinions, and in your view I should just Go Away. Of course, YOU are disagreeing with ME just like I disagreed with the OP, only you're using a condescending, rude presumption instead of an argument.
3. In your second post, you CONTINUE your original presumptuous line of reasoning and ask me to Go Away AGAIN. Which didn't work the first time. Isn't one definition of insanity "doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different outcomes"?
So, really, I'm NOT mad at you, but I DO think you're a daft hippie. You need to drop the whole therapist routine and get down to the debate at hand. If you're going to post, DEBATE MY POINTS. Don't try to analyze me. That's just irritating.
You want to debate me with a story about a little league dad who freaked out and hit the ref? You have GOT to be kidding me! What the hell does that have to do with video games (or anything else we've been discussing)??? Let alone the fact that sport-o jock types hardly play videogames at ALL, and that the "hit the ref" thing has a lot more to do with fat, middle aged guys trying to recapture their youth through their poor, doomed kids than it does with anything else...
I feel like you're not even TRYING. I'm hurt! Really!
The best you came up with was a lame-o urban legend about kids beating homeless guys to death with baseball bats. Even if that were true, it STILL wouldn't prove anything about video games. All it would prove is that kids can be mean little bastards. And how is this a surprise? You DO remember High School, don't you?
Thanks... If you want to have a great read, check out the two manga volumes currently available. They predate the movie by a few years, and are really excellent:
Ghost In The Shell (By Shirow Masamune)
Ghost In The Shell: Man-Machine Interface (By Shirow Masamune)
The first one is mostly black and white manga-style art, with some color sections, and the second one is just amazing, gorgeous, computer-rendered and painted manga (which will totally blow you away, by the way). Make sure you read the first one first, otherwise the second one won't make any sense.
I dearly love this series of books and movies. It's my favorite science fiction ever, and it pretty deeply influences my own work (which isn't available yet, but will be one day -- but mum's the word, you'll know it when you see it).
I dunno; I kind of liked GITS2. The story was interesting and deep, and had some good characters. I thought it offered some very good character development between Bateau and Togusa, and I liked the peek it offered into the relationship between the major and Bateau.
It had some very good imagery, also, which was far too expensive to include in a series. Both GITS 1 and 2 had very interesting segments in which characters were wandering around a futuristic city, which I felt were very rich and satisfying.
Overall, I'd say it was pretty good, even if it didn't add much to the overall storyline or the GITS universe. I'd still watch it after GITS 1, just for context and general enjoyment, before watching the series.:)
I've got them all in my collection, so here's my opinion:
First, watch the first and second Ghost in the Shell movies. Watch the older Ghost in the Shell first, in which Motoko encounters the Puppet Master and merges with him. Then, watch Innocence, which deals with how Bateau handles her disappearance and reveals a lot about how they feel about each other. Great quote from the second movie: "let a man walk alone, let him commit no sin, with few wishes, like an elephant in the forest". This quote is partial; it comes from Buddha's Dharmapada Sutra. The full passage is:
"329. If a man find no prudent companion who walks with him, is wise, and lives soberly, let him walk alone, like a king who has left his conquered country behind,--like an elephant in the forest.
330. It is better to live alone, there is no companionship with a fool; **let a man walk alone, let him commit no sin, with few wishes, like an elephant in the forest**."
My understanding of this is, Motoko was Bateau's "prudent companion" and since he can't travel with her, he would prefer to live alone. No one else can fill that role for him. Deep.
Once you've enjoyed the two movies, then I'd tackle the series. The series is basically about Section 9 prior to the disappearance of Motoko. Some people think it's an alternate universe, but I like to think of it as simply the period before she merged with the net. If you read the original manga, there was a huge amount of activity before she merged. Lots of those stories haven't found their way into anime yet. And the second manga volume deals with the period after she merges and splits off into a number of different artificial intelligences. So I like to think about it this way:
Period 1: Before merger with Puppet Master: Section 9 has various adventures, ultimately leading up to the puppet master incident. Many of the adventures are unrelated.
Period 2: After merger with Puppet Master: Motoko has merged with an AI, and has split into a number of AIs, and is being studied by her former bosses, who think there are going to be serious ramifications of her change, and that there's some kind of cosmic transcendence about to occur (this is in the manga, not the movies or series).
I view the series as taking place in period 1, the first GITS movie in period 1, and the second movie (Innocence) as taking place in period 2, but not at the same time as the second manga, which would have been years later.
Enjoy! It's some of the best sci-fi available anywhere.
Just because Sony gets away with something doesn't mean that EVERYBODY should. If that were the case, we could all start committing murder and get off with the "OJ Defense".
The article stated that gaming was an addiction; I'm calling bullshit on it. You're going to dare to tell me I'm not allowed to counter his opinion, in the same breath with which you try to counter mine??? Ha, ha ha... Thanks for the laugh.
And, don't talk to me about revenue; you can't move from revenue to "mainstream", it's a non sequitur. Videogames are mainstream when old people, young people, and middle aged people all agree that gaming is normal, healthy, and fun (and not a sign that you're a loser about to freak out and shoot up the neighborhood). Guess what? It hasn't happened yet, and WON'T happen until all the baby boomers die off.
8.2 billion dollars is nothing, anyway. Chump change, dwarfed by the television, movie, and music industries. It's a tiny little piece of a huge pie, and if you want to talk mainstream, talk television, because that's what the rubes are doing with their time.
Videogames are a new form of entertainment that has been around for at MOST fifteen years in anything even remotely resembling its current form. You can trace the current games' lineage back to Wolfenstein and Doom, by the way, which started this whole thing in '92 or '93 -- and yes, I played them. Even if you go all the way back to primitive, bouncing pixel games, you're still only in the late seventies. Contrast this with television, which has been around since the thirties, or radio, which has had over a century. Assimilation takes time, time for old people who can't adapt to die off and make room for the rest of us.
Before you get all excited about the "noble great apes", you should realize that chimpanzees have been known to murder the young of other chimpanzees to ensure that their own line succeeds. As horrified as you may be by kids killing imaginary pixellated hookers in Vice City, at least they're not murdering the neighbor's kids with a rock.
Gamers are people who enjoy a particular activity, which is immensely fun and enjoyable, improves their hand-eye coordination, exercises their problem-solving skills, and lets them get away from the tedium of the real world for a while. IT'S JUST ENTERTAINMENT.
Before you convince me that gamers are "addicts", you'll have to demonstrate how gaming is worse or more evil than the couch-potato TV watching most of the rest of the population does for five hours a day. You'll also have to constrast gaming with ALL of the other hobbies people have engaged in over the past thousand years or so. Hobbies like fly fishing (mentioned in the article), model ship and plane building, wood carving, playing a musical instrument, and studying history.
Because THE TRUTH IS, human beings (and almost all other animals with any intelligence, like apes and large monkeys) enjoy spending their leisure time in imaginative, playful activities. We just do. We don't live to work, or eat, sleep and fuck, we spend a lot of our time simply exercising our brains. AND WE'RE MEANT TO. It's our inner nature! It's WHO WE ARE. And all of us, from the dowdy housewife who collects Beanie Babies to the military buff who lusts after R. Lee Armey, to the gamer playing Halo 2 online, ALL are simply behaving properly according to our species' emotional and intellectual needs.
The ONLY reason gaming has been singled out as "addictive" and negative in context is that the majority of our population is very closed-minded and can't wrap their mind around an activity that doesn't involve sports or television sitcoms. If you want to take the gloves off and deal with the issue honestly, that's it in a nutshell: gamers are "different and weird" and Must Be Stopped. It's the "You damn kids today!" mentality. A generation from now, we'll be pissing and moaning about some new technology and decrying IT as the end of the world.
It's boring, people; can't we talk about something more interesting?
P.S. YES, I know there are obsessive-compulsive people who game until their fingers bleed. But there are ALSO obsessive compulsives who engage in every other activity under the sun. It's not the gaming, it's the obsessive with a mental problem, correlation, NOT causation.
Besides, he only got three months in jail, plus restitution. That's relatively lenient for this kind of crime, isn't it? Most prosecutors try to lock hackers up for the maximum term.
The real effect of his record will be that it effectively bars him from working in I.T. Which might not be an entirely bad thing -- the guy DOES seem to have a pretty flexible moral compass, doesn't he?
My question is, why is this in "your rights online"?
Slashdot Mirror
Thanks! ;)
I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem with these game companies (and all companies nowadays, but I don't want to get started on that, I'll have carpal tunnel by the time I'm done typing my rant) is that they literally expect to be catered to. They don't want "customers", they want serfs.
I had a weird argument this morning which actually provides a good example of this mentality.
Over the past four years or so, I've missed maybe four appointments with my dentist. I always made them up shortly afterwards, and I've always paid my bills on time so I figured everyone was happy. Silly me. My dentist sent me a nasty letter today, saying that if I don't shape up, they'll "discharge me from their care". There was a big section containing a guilt trip for missing an appointment, on how dental care is "a 50-50 relationship", and on how a slacker like me isn't "holding up my end of the bargain". Then a nice threatening tone, and a command to "think very seriously about whether you want to continue to be a client of this office".
I cancelled all my future appointments and told them where they could stick their dental services. The secretary got all nasty with me, too, demanding that I apologize for missing appointments and all this kind of crap. Her whole attitude is "how DARE you question us? We're DENTISTS!" It was really amazing. I told her, look, lady, as long as I'm paying YOU, you don't get to talk shit to me, ok? You don't get to write me nasty letters and you don't get to yell at me on the phone. Cancel all my appointments, I'm not your customer anymore.
I had to hang up. She was going to blow a gasket. And the weird thing is, I had a real perception that she thought she was on the side of the angels or something! She really seemed to think she was defending her poor, beleaguered dentist from a horrible, slacker "client".
Whatever. It's all about power. The only appropriate response is to vote with your feet.
Looks like Nintendo might pull an interesting hat trick this year, eh?
So, publishers are bent out of shape that games last for years, and we all trade them back and forth in the same way used CDs, tapes, and records have been for decades? They're afraid we're going to stop buying new games because we're buying used ones? They want more money (that goes without saying)?
Yeah. Cry me a river. Here are my thoughts:
1. The game industry is making money hand over fist. They may WANT a license to print money, they may feel that all of us gamers should spend all our income on their brand new stuff and never look for a bargain, but tough luck -- the world doesn't work that way. If we all got whatever we wanted, whenever I got lonely or horny I'd clap my hands, yell "Doughnut!" and a gorgeous hottie with an oral fixation would appear. See -- I just clapped. NOTHING! So why should they get whatever fool thing THEY want?
2. Used games COME FROM SOMEWHERE. They don't just suddenly appear, the Used Game Fairy doesn't bring them around in her "naughty nurse" uniform, and they're not gifts from aliens. Every used game was purchased by someone, brand new, at some point. So, the game publishers DID get paid for them! Their problem is, they're not getting paid for them ANY MORE. Again, too fucking bad. That's life. I'd love it if my ex girlfriend had to come over three times a week and do me, but she doesn't (too damn stubborn).
3. A PURCHASE IS A PURCHASE. Once we buy our games fair and square, we can sell them to anybody we want to. We can trade them for cigarettes and beer if we feel like it. We can give them to homeless people to use as ninja stars when fratboys annoy them. We can do whatever we like with them. BECAUSE WE BOUGHT THEM, for much more than they're conceivably worth, by the way. All the pissing and moaning in the world won't convince me that once I buy a game, I shouldn't sell it or trade it in for a new one. It's mine, I'll do whatever I want with it.
4. FINALLY, seriously now, isn't it ridiculous that they're now trying to pretend that it's the used game market that causes game companies to put out derivative dreck? YEAH, I see how that works. It's not that game companies are pushing their developers to exhaustion, outsourcing a lot of their activities, making UNBELIEVABLY shitty movie tie-in games (if you can call them games), and in general, treating the public like they'll buy anything if they put the right face on the package. Oh, no, if sales slow down it must be because all the customers are EVIL! Yeah, we're all just penny-pinching Meanies. I see...
Well, that's my rant for now. I'll leave you with this thought:
Do I buy a lot of used games? Yes, I do.
Do I buy a lot of new games? Well, actually, yes on that one also.
Am I a freeloader? NO. I spend more money on this crap than most people.
Do I feel like anyone appreciates my business? NO.
You know, this stuff isn't that complicated. It's about treating me like a customer, appreciating my business, and giving me good value. If you can't do that, there's nothing you can sell me.
WOOt!
"Don't your coworkers kill time in waiting rooms or whatever playing cell/pda games? Or solitaire on the pc when nobody is watching? no online gambling? not even fantasy football/golf etc.? brickout on their iPod? No palms or pocket pcs? I'd be surprised."
.Net on it, so they can work at home. Uuuuhhhhhhhhgh. SO depressing.
:)
Heh... I KNEW you were in a more modern environment! The fact that you take such things as normal proves that you're in a pretty good spot.
In my last job, very few people even OWNED a PDA, much less were good enough with one to install and play a game on it. Lots of people here don't even have their own computers outside of work, which boggles the mind -- these people are supposed to be programmers and sysadmins! How can they not own a PC??? It's completely astonishing. Then there are the guys who are SO CLOSE to being into it, but who can't let go of the "it's a TOOL, not a TOY, damnit!" mentality. These are the guys who go out and buy a top-of-the-line PC, and then install nothing but Oracle and
Down in New York City, there are a lot more people like you describe, but in my line of work the money (and the job security) is up here in the Capital District. Unfortunately, it's a social dead zone for geeks, like a big tar pit of boring. Ah, well...
Listen, it's been pretty cool chatting with you. I'm glad to have made your acquaintance.
So, you counter my point that violent crime has dropped by half with a rambling about NON-VIOLENT crime, then re-iterate your assertion that violent crime is on the rise?
You, sir, are a ding-bat. Congradulations. You're the first person I've met recently who has earned that very silly, old-fashioned title.
Oh, man, you've got it bad.
1 /XJ&sdn=crime&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ojp.usdoj.gov%2F bjs%2Fhomicide%2Fhmrt.htm
Look, see, there's this thing called PROPAGANDA.
So the government wants to expand its powers. Less of those nasty "rights" to get in their way when they want to pinch someone, for example, or maybe ridiculously long prison sentences for some poor schmuck who got caught with a pot cigarette. Whatever. Those in power want more of it. Now, how do they con the rest of us into letting them have more power?
Simple. First, they put a scare into rubes like you. OH MY GOD, they yell, POTHEADS ARE GOING TO EAT YOUR CHILDREN AND DO IT TO YOUR WIFE if you don't help us pass this here bill that allows civil forfeiture of property, etc, etc. And guys like you don't even apply reason to the conversation. You just bend over for The Man. In fact, you're so brainwashed you probably write your congressman ASKING him to curtail your civil rights.
And no matter WHAT they do or how far they go, your brainwashing is so complete that you feel frightened in your suburban, completely safe neighborhood. You think, at any moment a mob of crackheads and satanists could come crashing through the door and kill you! So you join the NRA and buy a huge arsenal of guns, collect knives, etc. All to ward off the imaginary crackheads who aren't knocking down your door. And nothing you do makes you feel safe, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO CREDIBLE THREAT TO YOU.
The sad part of this is, you really believe your paranoiac fantasies. Dubya LOVES guys like you. I bet you're not even bothered that the NSA has been spying on Americans for the past four years, without any legal right to. I bet "Extraordinary Rendition" is A-OK in your book. I bet you think that torture is just fine, because they only apply it to "those people", right?
People like you mystify me. You really do. How can you be so gullible, so easily brainwashed? Don't you understand you're just being used? Manipulated?
Sigh... Of course you don't.
Well, I don't have any hopes of snapping you out of it, so just for the hell of it, here are some more links with crime statistics. Of course, they don't agree with your delusions, so you'll yell about how they're just "liberal propaganda" or spout some other silly crypto-fascist bullshit like that.
Here goes:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/tost_3.html#3_x
http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t3117.pdf
http://crime.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=
http://crime.about.com/od/stats/a/ucr2003.htm
http://crime.about.com/od/stats/a/fbi041214.htm
Now, go ahead and try to prove that the University of Albany is a liberal propaganda thinktank. I dare you. We could all use a laugh.
True Story:
When I was in the Marine Corps, our platoon commander (a 2nd Lieutenant) was discovered to have a degree in literature. I was mildly surprised, because I hadn't taken him to be particularly bright, but I forgot it, until I had the following conversation (after being mysteriously called on the carpet):
Lt. "Stacklecheck" (our nickname for him, his real name was unspellable): "Ok, P***, I've heard a rumor from some of the other men..."
Me: "Oh?"
Lt. Asshole: "It appears you've been..." (look of disgust appears on his face) "READING BOOKS."
Me: "Urk?"
Lt. Asshole: "Well? What do you have to say for yourself?"
Me: "Is this a joke?"
Lt. Asshole: "A joke!!! A JOKE???"
Me: (to self) Uh oh... (to him): "Uhhhh... Yeah, maybe a little Heinlein, on my free time..."
Lt. Asshole: "This has got to stop. From now on, the only thing I want you reading is to be your Mortar Knowledge."
Me: "Sir, with all due respect, that whole book is only 80 pages long. I've got it memorized, practically. It's not THAT hard, anyway..."
Lt. Asshole: "WELL READ IT AGAIN! Dismissed."
Of course, I completely ignored the stupid prick. But from then on, whenever I wanted to read a book, I had to go hide in the fucking Rope room of our LPD (Landing Platform Dock, a big assault ship, basically).
So, yeah, some literature majors aren't all that into books...
BY THE WAY: Here's a link. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html
:)
You'll notice the murder rate peaked in 1980, with some other highs in the 1970's, and is currently at about half the peak rate.
You'll ALSO notice that the peak years for homicide in this country were years in which there WERE NO REALISTIC VIDEO GAMES AVAILABLE.
Please explain how this affects your theories.
Ok... Since you're serious...
I don't believe there has been ANY change in violence levels in our society. I simply believe that the media has gotten so expanded in its scope that it NOTICES violence much more than it used to. And what the media notices, we notice.
If you really want to know how "violence" has changed over the years, look up the murder rates for major cities. You'll notice that they've been dropping in most localities every year.
Violence hasn't increased; our notice of it has.
Well, that's what I was looking for. Thanks for some conversation!
I wasn't really getting into the reactions people have to violent games, I think that's a separate issue and a more complicated one to boot. Another poster in this thread has been arguing that point with me, and it just isn't that much fun. People tend to take the position they think makes them more mature or reasonable, and you're arguing with a role, not a person, so it kind of kills the joy for me.
What I'm really trying to touch on here is that many people DO see games and gamers as different and weird, and they tend to assume there's something about games that places them way down under TV in the general status pecking order. If you haven't had to put up with this, you've been pretty lucky. Where I live (Albany, NY) most of the people I meet on the job are very staid and square. Government workers, you know? They look at video games as a silly thing children do, but which isn't suitable for grownups. In my old agency, there were only two other guys my age who were into games, plus two college-age interns. Everybody else considered my interest in gaming (more Halo 2 than GTA) an eccentricity at best, a big, red "L" for "Loser" on my forehead at worst. Also, try and find a woman in her thirties who will even admit she tolerates games, much less plays them on purpose -- you won't find any around here.
They also hate science fiction, anime, graphic novels, etc -- all the stuff I like. It's a solitary life.
In my new agency, there's one single person who is into the same things as me. One. But luckily, my new coworkers have much better attitudes. They just think I'm eccentric, not a loser, and find my peccadilloes interesting rather than offputting.
Now, aside from having to live in a place where there is nearly NOBODY around who is interested in the same things as me, and where I do catch some serious abuse simply for enjoying videogames (although not really since switching agencies), I do seem to see more and more articles on the web attacking gaming as an unhealthy activity that leads to addiction. And I do see more and more articles humorously describing gamers as crazed otaku. This is an irritating trend for me.
Although I'm definitely a gamer, I'm also definitely not addicted to anything. I game a few hours here and there, nothing big, I have a great time trying out some new world, solving puzzles, etc -- and when I'm done, I move on to other activities. Now and then, a big blockbuster game will come out, and I'll spend a couple dozen hours beating it (I don't miss work, or anything, but I stay up late). That's about it.
Any objective observer who was to meet me would consider me almost entirely normal -- so normal I'm boring. Aside from an interest in gaming, graphic novels, anime, and science fiction, I don't do anything alarming or strange. I don't drink (much), I never do drugs, I stay so far out of trouble I'm practically not even HERE in Albany, and in general, I'm a pillar of the community. Nice car, nice clothes, you name it.
If gaming doesn't have at least something of a bad rep, why is it that my whole appearance and impression goes right out the window the minute someone finds out I have an XBox? Suddenly I'm a dork in their eyes. How does that happen, exactly? And how is it rational or fair?
So, yeah, I don't think gaming has hit the mainstream yet -- at least not as far as I can see. Maybe where you live things are a little more fun.
EIGHT HOURS? Wow. I mean... Wow. That's a lot of TV.
wow. I'd live to fuck, too, but I'm unfortunately bereft of one of the prerequisites, ha ha. ;)
Wait! I meant I was missing the girl, not the, ah, um... Never mind.
I'm relaxed, I'm just debating you. It's not personal or anything.
But my problem with YOU is, keeping in mind that it's an intellectual consideration and not an emotional one,
1. You KNOW you're on Slashdot, which exists so we can amuse ourselves by disagreeing over whatever gets posted, and have a nice, lively debate;
2. Instead of debating me, you try to shut me up with some cockamamie, condescending hippie talk about how I'm fed up with other people and their opinions, and in your view I should just Go Away. Of course, YOU are disagreeing with ME just like I disagreed with the OP, only you're using a condescending, rude presumption instead of an argument.
3. In your second post, you CONTINUE your original presumptuous line of reasoning and ask me to Go Away AGAIN. Which didn't work the first time. Isn't one definition of insanity "doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different outcomes"?
So, really, I'm NOT mad at you, but I DO think you're a daft hippie. You need to drop the whole therapist routine and get down to the debate at hand. If you're going to post, DEBATE MY POINTS. Don't try to analyze me. That's just irritating.
Oh, come on.
You want to debate me with a story about a little league dad who freaked out and hit the ref? You have GOT to be kidding me! What the hell does that have to do with video games (or anything else we've been discussing)??? Let alone the fact that sport-o jock types hardly play videogames at ALL, and that the "hit the ref" thing has a lot more to do with fat, middle aged guys trying to recapture their youth through their poor, doomed kids than it does with anything else...
I feel like you're not even TRYING. I'm hurt! Really!
The best you came up with was a lame-o urban legend about kids beating homeless guys to death with baseball bats. Even if that were true, it STILL wouldn't prove anything about video games. All it would prove is that kids can be mean little bastards. And how is this a surprise? You DO remember High School, don't you?
Sigh... I grade that one a "D".
Thanks... If you want to have a great read, check out the two manga volumes currently available. They predate the movie by a few years, and are really excellent:
Ghost In The Shell (By Shirow Masamune)
Ghost In The Shell: Man-Machine Interface (By Shirow Masamune)
The first one is mostly black and white manga-style art, with some color sections, and the second one is just amazing, gorgeous, computer-rendered and painted manga (which will totally blow you away, by the way). Make sure you read the first one first, otherwise the second one won't make any sense.
I dearly love this series of books and movies. It's my favorite science fiction ever, and it pretty deeply influences my own work (which isn't available yet, but will be one day -- but mum's the word, you'll know it when you see it).
I dunno; I kind of liked GITS2. The story was interesting and deep, and had some good characters. I thought it offered some very good character development between Bateau and Togusa, and I liked the peek it offered into the relationship between the major and Bateau.
:)
It had some very good imagery, also, which was far too expensive to include in a series. Both GITS 1 and 2 had very interesting segments in which characters were wandering around a futuristic city, which I felt were very rich and satisfying.
Overall, I'd say it was pretty good, even if it didn't add much to the overall storyline or the GITS universe. I'd still watch it after GITS 1, just for context and general enjoyment, before watching the series.
Doh!
Umm... Sorry about that. My bad.
I've got them all in my collection, so here's my opinion:
First, watch the first and second Ghost in the Shell movies. Watch the older Ghost in the Shell first, in which Motoko encounters the Puppet Master and merges with him. Then, watch Innocence, which deals with how Bateau handles her disappearance and reveals a lot about how they feel about each other. Great quote from the second movie: "let a man walk alone, let him commit no sin, with few wishes, like an elephant in the forest". This quote is partial; it comes from Buddha's Dharmapada Sutra. The full passage is:
"329. If a man find no prudent companion who walks with him, is wise,
and lives soberly, let him walk alone, like a king who has left his
conquered country behind,--like an elephant in the forest.
330. It is better to live alone, there is no companionship with a
fool; **let a man walk alone, let him commit no sin, with few wishes,
like an elephant in the forest**."
My understanding of this is, Motoko was Bateau's "prudent companion" and since he can't travel with her, he would prefer to live alone. No one else can fill that role for him. Deep.
Once you've enjoyed the two movies, then I'd tackle the series. The series is basically about Section 9 prior to the disappearance of Motoko. Some people think it's an alternate universe, but I like to think of it as simply the period before she merged with the net. If you read the original manga, there was a huge amount of activity before she merged. Lots of those stories haven't found their way into anime yet. And the second manga volume deals with the period after she merges and splits off into a number of different artificial intelligences. So I like to think about it this way:
Period 1: Before merger with Puppet Master: Section 9 has various adventures, ultimately leading up to the puppet master incident. Many of the adventures are unrelated.
Period 2: After merger with Puppet Master: Motoko has merged with an AI, and has split into a number of AIs, and is being studied by her former bosses, who think there are going to be serious ramifications of her change, and that there's some kind of cosmic transcendence about to occur (this is in the manga, not the movies or series).
I view the series as taking place in period 1, the first GITS movie in period 1, and the second movie (Innocence) as taking place in period 2, but not at the same time as the second manga, which would have been years later.
Enjoy! It's some of the best sci-fi available anywhere.
Woah, there.
Just because Sony gets away with something doesn't mean that EVERYBODY should. If that were the case, we could all start committing murder and get off with the "OJ Defense".
The article stated that gaming was an addiction; I'm calling bullshit on it. You're going to dare to tell me I'm not allowed to counter his opinion, in the same breath with which you try to counter mine??? Ha, ha ha... Thanks for the laugh.
And, don't talk to me about revenue; you can't move from revenue to "mainstream", it's a non sequitur. Videogames are mainstream when old people, young people, and middle aged people all agree that gaming is normal, healthy, and fun (and not a sign that you're a loser about to freak out and shoot up the neighborhood). Guess what? It hasn't happened yet, and WON'T happen until all the baby boomers die off.
8.2 billion dollars is nothing, anyway. Chump change, dwarfed by the television, movie, and music industries. It's a tiny little piece of a huge pie, and if you want to talk mainstream, talk television, because that's what the rubes are doing with their time.
Videogames are a new form of entertainment that has been around for at MOST fifteen years in anything even remotely resembling its current form. You can trace the current games' lineage back to Wolfenstein and Doom, by the way, which started this whole thing in '92 or '93 -- and yes, I played them. Even if you go all the way back to primitive, bouncing pixel games, you're still only in the late seventies. Contrast this with television, which has been around since the thirties, or radio, which has had over a century. Assimilation takes time, time for old people who can't adapt to die off and make room for the rest of us.
Deal with it.
Before you get all excited about the "noble great apes", you should realize that chimpanzees have been known to murder the young of other chimpanzees to ensure that their own line succeeds. As horrified as you may be by kids killing imaginary pixellated hookers in Vice City, at least they're not murdering the neighbor's kids with a rock.
Just a thought.
Gamers are people who enjoy a particular activity, which is immensely fun and enjoyable, improves their hand-eye coordination, exercises their problem-solving skills, and lets them get away from the tedium of the real world for a while. IT'S JUST ENTERTAINMENT.
Before you convince me that gamers are "addicts", you'll have to demonstrate how gaming is worse or more evil than the couch-potato TV watching most of the rest of the population does for five hours a day. You'll also have to constrast gaming with ALL of the other hobbies people have engaged in over the past thousand years or so. Hobbies like fly fishing (mentioned in the article), model ship and plane building, wood carving, playing a musical instrument, and studying history.
Because THE TRUTH IS, human beings (and almost all other animals with any intelligence, like apes and large monkeys) enjoy spending their leisure time in imaginative, playful activities. We just do. We don't live to work, or eat, sleep and fuck, we spend a lot of our time simply exercising our brains. AND WE'RE MEANT TO. It's our inner nature! It's WHO WE ARE. And all of us, from the dowdy housewife who collects Beanie Babies to the military buff who lusts after R. Lee Armey, to the gamer playing Halo 2 online, ALL are simply behaving properly according to our species' emotional and intellectual needs.
The ONLY reason gaming has been singled out as "addictive" and negative in context is that the majority of our population is very closed-minded and can't wrap their mind around an activity that doesn't involve sports or television sitcoms. If you want to take the gloves off and deal with the issue honestly, that's it in a nutshell: gamers are "different and weird" and Must Be Stopped. It's the "You damn kids today!" mentality. A generation from now, we'll be pissing and moaning about some new technology and decrying IT as the end of the world.
It's boring, people; can't we talk about something more interesting?
P.S. YES, I know there are obsessive-compulsive people who game until their fingers bleed. But there are ALSO obsessive compulsives who engage in every other activity under the sun. It's not the gaming, it's the obsessive with a mental problem, correlation, NOT causation.
Besides, he only got three months in jail, plus restitution. That's relatively lenient for this kind of crime, isn't it? Most prosecutors try to lock hackers up for the maximum term.
The real effect of his record will be that it effectively bars him from working in I.T. Which might not be an entirely bad thing -- the guy DOES seem to have a pretty flexible moral compass, doesn't he?
My question is, why is this in "your rights online"?
Yeah, I know, I know, but hey! Where am I going to find a Norwegian in upstate New York? Lotsa Germans, though.
Think about it this way: maybe they outsourced security!