drifting OT, but it strikes me as funny -- the very same day I wrote this post, I went home, there was a new catalyst control center version for download, and it's tons faster. Doesn't use the godawful theme anymore either (probably why it was so slow in the first place)
I just have to ask: why did you see my post as some kind of attack on Java? Are you personally invested in its type system? I simply answered the areas where I felt the type system is less than ideal. I don't feel any desire to take the conversation in the direction of an argument, which appears to be where you clearly want it, even throwing around terms like "idiot".
And yes, there are alternatives: you can handwave anything away with the turing-completeness argument, but it doesn't address the language under discussion, which is Java. I could have made my presentation more balanced and presented the pros as well as the cons (erasure for example had obvious wins in the area of practicality), but it wasn't my intent to be balanced. Your rebuttals would do well to be based a little more in fact to serve as counterpoint: for example, type inference never occurs at runtime. Never.
So what keeps a cop from going rogue, lying, cheating and stealing in order to gather information and then submit said 'dirt' under an anonymous handle?
They do. Usually they don't even do it anonymously, it just gets recorded in the paperwork as an "anonymous tip".
Go grab Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul. It makes combat punishingly hard at first (it's supposed to be -- run away!), but does remove the obnoxiousness of the leveled lists without doing away with them completely.
Get the right economy mods (starting and perhaps ending with Living Economy) and you can ply your own trade routes. You're still going to have to fight, a lot, since there aren't any well-developed hireling mods (and in most games, typical friendly AI is still dumb as a brick)
It's still a combat-centric game though, but so is pretty much every CRPG.
Seriously, perhaps you should understand what a term actually means before you criticize it. Type inference is not only not dynamic typing, it only makes sense with static typing. In fact, it would make Java more typesafe by removing ClassCastExceptions (the fact that it bombs at runtime with a standardized error instead of dancing fandango on the core might make the runtime safe, but doesn't make the type system sound).
My take is that someone needs to just go ahead and add type inference without Sun's input. It's completely a compile-time thing anyway, so as long as it compiles to the same bytecode, who cares.
> Considering Microsoft loads the.Net runtime at startup (without your input)
Perhaps on Vista. It does nothing of the sort on XP, as anyone who has had to suffer through the glacial startup time of ATI's Catalyst control center can attest.
What it does do is cache the compiled code so the next time it doesn't even have to load up the JIT. This one always struck me as a no-brainer that Sun's VM should have done too.
> Not fishing for flamewars, but what's wrong with Java's typesystem as it is?
Let me count the ways...
Primitive types. They're a concession to 1960's-era compiler technology, and could have been done away with with no overhead at runtime. At least they can't be null -- til you bring autoboxing into the equation. Auto-unboxing is even better, a brand new source of NPE's.
Type erasure for generics. If you ever cross a jar boundary (that is, import), the type constraint of a generic is no longer enforced statically. It's just syntax sugar for downcasts.
Unexpressive constraints on generics. I don't entirely understand Scala's parametric types, but I guarantee you they're more powerful than Java's. This one actually isn't
The existence of null, or more specifically the fact that you can't statically enforce the not-nullness of a reference. NPE's are ubiquitous in Java; they're an outright plague in fact. See Nice for an example of how to cleanly make null optional, or Groovy for an alternate approach that at least cleanly propagates nulls (though the latter doesn't really solve the problem). C# makes the problem worse in some respects with nullable types, though this isn't really any different than JDK1.5 autoboxing.
No type inference. Not even local type inference. Not even within a single statement.
No structural subtyping. It's related to type inference. Imagine implementing an interface by just implementing it, and not needing the 'implements' keyword. That would arguably be a dubious feature by itself, but taken to its conclusion, you can do away with the duality between classes and interfaces without requiring concrete multiple inheritance in the bargain.
I'm not claiming Java's type system completely sucks, it just hasn't incorporated any features from the last 20 years or so of programming languages.
Yes, PHP sucks, I agree wholeheartedly. But do you have to post this polemic verbatim every time though? Post it up somewhere and a give us a god damned link. You're the "BSD is Dying" troll all over again.
We've been doing fully robotic actors for years now, predating CG virtual actors. What do you think explains Keanu Reeves? I know, but he's an early model -- we're still working on the whole emotional response thing.
enom in general (of which RF was til recently a reseller) has been a haven for spammers -- their reputation is horrendous. There's worse though: if you really want to register and host blatant phishing domains, Yahoo seems to be the place to go.
I used to applaud GoDaddy for how they would bring the mallet down on bulk spammer registrations, but after seeing how they behave in general now, I wouldn't trust them to tell me the time. enom's lack of action suddenly seems benign in comparison (though I still think Yahoo is criminally complicit, since it actually hosts phishers)
The point I was making was that most other window managers put that function on alt-rightdrag. GNOME decided not only to be different, but remove the ability to change it back. Like most other people, I have a wheel mouse. The click on the middle button requires a lot of pressure, and it often causes me to accidentally scroll. Good thing chording is the default, so I can also use alt-L+R-button -- but only GNOME *makes* me do it that way.
I wouldn't actually care were it not for that I'm on Ubuntu, having experienced how badly fucked up Kubuntu is. But on Windows, I use WinMover, and I can actually configure it. This makes my windows desktop more customizable than my Linux desktop. I think that's probably what draws the ire of Linus in the first place -- it's giving Linux a bad name.
If you really demand a uniform end-to-end authentication mechanism, X.400 is over that-a-way.
A full blown information war is being waged over email, and it's surviving quite nicely. I eagerly await your perfect solution that changes human nature itself. I tire of the pontifications of armchair architects.
C'mon, we're talking about a Chinese distributed hack here. Here's the quote that should have leaped into your head.
"If I determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can concentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless: if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it nor the wise make plans against it." -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
nuzak's law: a lawyer will always take your best lines.
It's not about what you say, it's about how pithy you say it. People remarked about the Nazi thing on FIDONET. Good humor is about shared references -- Seinfeld made a career out of pointing out the obvious with "did you ever notice..."
Why, on an empty desktop, should someone need to click a button to bring up a menu of the most useful things that they can do with the computer?
We don't have good drivers for the telepathic interface yet. I have my common apps on a launcher, but I do still have to click them.
Why is the close button for windows next to the minimize and maximize buttons? I can't tell you the number of times I clicked on the wrong button and said 'damnit'
Guess which of the competing DE's actually lets you move the buttons and guess which doesn't.
I believe it was twm that did it first, and it's good to care when someone's claiming credit.
Oh but GNOME can lay claim to its window manager requiring alt-MIDDLE-button to resize windows, hardwiring it into the window manager's source, and REMOVING the ability to actually configure it. I don't think it's even in a #define, it's buried deep in the event handling code. Undocumented of course, lest the unwashed masses figure out how to change it.
Sawfish used to be extremely configurable. Metacity deliberately moved it all into the C source and hardwired it in. THAT is the sum of GNOME's contempt for you the user.
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A pithy rhetorical latin question isn't really justification, it's simply reiterating my stance. I probably should have put it first.
drifting OT, but it strikes me as funny -- the very same day I wrote this post, I went home, there was a new catalyst control center version for download, and it's tons faster. Doesn't use the godawful theme anymore either (probably why it was so slow in the first place)
I just have to ask: why did you see my post as some kind of attack on Java? Are you personally invested in its type system? I simply answered the areas where I felt the type system is less than ideal. I don't feel any desire to take the conversation in the direction of an argument, which appears to be where you clearly want it, even throwing around terms like "idiot".
And yes, there are alternatives: you can handwave anything away with the turing-completeness argument, but it doesn't address the language under discussion, which is Java. I could have made my presentation more balanced and presented the pros as well as the cons (erasure for example had obvious wins in the area of practicality), but it wasn't my intent to be balanced. Your rebuttals would do well to be based a little more in fact to serve as counterpoint: for example, type inference never occurs at runtime. Never.
> Am I correct in thinking that you would rather see this Judge go free for having Child Porn?
Yes. And no, I don't feel I need to justify my reason to you. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
> Do bounty hunters need a warrant?
In fact they do. It's called a bench warrant. Legitimate bounty agents are registered, licensed, and bonded.
So what keeps a cop from going rogue, lying, cheating and stealing in order to gather information and then submit said 'dirt' under an anonymous handle?
They do. Usually they don't even do it anonymously, it just gets recorded in the paperwork as an "anonymous tip".
Go grab Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul. It makes combat punishingly hard at first (it's supposed to be -- run away!), but does remove the obnoxiousness of the leveled lists without doing away with them completely.
Get the right economy mods (starting and perhaps ending with Living Economy) and you can ply your own trade routes. You're still going to have to fight, a lot, since there aren't any well-developed hireling mods (and in most games, typical friendly AI is still dumb as a brick)
It's still a combat-centric game though, but so is pretty much every CRPG.
They will not fix it. It will always suck. Move on. I truly pity a person who is so hateful as yourself.
"Microsoft has apologized for serving malware via ... Windows
[insert pithy acknowledgement]
Congratulations, Captain Pedantic! Now tell me which compilers or runtimes actually target IA32 microcode directly.
> 1) Not everyone wants a dynamic typed language.
Seriously, perhaps you should understand what a term actually means before you criticize it. Type inference is not only not dynamic typing, it only makes sense with static typing. In fact, it would make Java more typesafe by removing ClassCastExceptions (the fact that it bombs at runtime with a standardized error instead of dancing fandango on the core might make the runtime safe, but doesn't make the type system sound).
My take is that someone needs to just go ahead and add type inference without Sun's input. It's completely a compile-time thing anyway, so as long as it compiles to the same bytecode, who cares.
> Considering Microsoft loads the .Net runtime at startup (without your input)
Perhaps on Vista. It does nothing of the sort on XP, as anyone who has had to suffer through the glacial startup time of ATI's Catalyst control center can attest.
What it does do is cache the compiled code so the next time it doesn't even have to load up the JIT. This one always struck me as a no-brainer that Sun's VM should have done too.
> people not familiar with the details of s/w development (i.e. PHPs).
Most apropos typo ever.
Let me count the ways...
I'm not claiming Java's type system completely sucks, it just hasn't incorporated any features from the last 20 years or so of programming languages.
Yes, PHP sucks, I agree wholeheartedly. But do you have to post this polemic verbatim every time though? Post it up somewhere and a give us a god damned link. You're the "BSD is Dying" troll all over again.
We've been doing fully robotic actors for years now, predating CG virtual actors. What do you think explains Keanu Reeves? I know, but he's an early model -- we're still working on the whole emotional response thing.
enom in general (of which RF was til recently a reseller) has been a haven for spammers -- their reputation is horrendous. There's worse though: if you really want to register and host blatant phishing domains, Yahoo seems to be the place to go.
I used to applaud GoDaddy for how they would bring the mallet down on bulk spammer registrations, but after seeing how they behave in general now, I wouldn't trust them to tell me the time. enom's lack of action suddenly seems benign in comparison (though I still think Yahoo is criminally complicit, since it actually hosts phishers)
The point I was making was that most other window managers put that function on alt-rightdrag. GNOME decided not only to be different, but remove the ability to change it back. Like most other people, I have a wheel mouse. The click on the middle button requires a lot of pressure, and it often causes me to accidentally scroll. Good thing chording is the default, so I can also use alt-L+R-button -- but only GNOME *makes* me do it that way.
I wouldn't actually care were it not for that I'm on Ubuntu, having experienced how badly fucked up Kubuntu is. But on Windows, I use WinMover, and I can actually configure it. This makes my windows desktop more customizable than my Linux desktop. I think that's probably what draws the ire of Linus in the first place -- it's giving Linux a bad name.
> I think email (as in RFC822, etc) is doomed
If you really demand a uniform end-to-end authentication mechanism, X.400 is over that-a-way.
A full blown information war is being waged over email, and it's surviving quite nicely. I eagerly await your perfect solution that changes human nature itself. I tire of the pontifications of armchair architects.
> AFAIK, under the mail box rule, if you give a legal notice to the post office, it is considered delivered.
Delivered, yes. Received, no. Try serving a subpoena that way.
The thing about the boy who cried wolf: in the end, the wolf actually did come.
I think the character you're looking for is Henny Penny.
nuzak's law: a lawyer will always take your best lines.
It's not about what you say, it's about how pithy you say it. People remarked about the Nazi thing on FIDONET. Good humor is about shared references -- Seinfeld made a career out of pointing out the obvious with "did you ever notice..."
Why, on an empty desktop, should someone need to click a button to bring up a menu of the most useful things that they can do with the computer?
We don't have good drivers for the telepathic interface yet. I have my common apps on a launcher, but I do still have to click them.
Why is the close button for windows next to the minimize and maximize buttons? I can't tell you the number of times I clicked on the wrong button and said 'damnit'
Guess which of the competing DE's actually lets you move the buttons and guess which doesn't.
> Who knows who did that first... who cares
I believe it was twm that did it first, and it's good to care when someone's claiming credit.
Oh but GNOME can lay claim to its window manager requiring alt-MIDDLE-button to resize windows, hardwiring it into the window manager's source, and REMOVING the ability to actually configure it. I don't think it's even in a #define, it's buried deep in the event handling code. Undocumented of course, lest the unwashed masses figure out how to change it.
Sawfish used to be extremely configurable. Metacity deliberately moved it all into the C source and hardwired it in. THAT is the sum of GNOME's contempt for you the user.