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5 Things the Boss Should Know About Spam Fighting

Esther Schindler writes "Sysadmins and email administrators were asked to identify the one thing they wish the CIO understood about their efforts to fight spam. The CIO website is now running their five most important tips, in an effort to educate the corporate brass. Recommendations are mostly along the lines of informing corporate management; letting bosses know that there is no 'silver bullet', and that the battle will never really end. There's also a suggestion to educate on technical matters, bringing executives into the loop on terms like SMTP and POP. Their first recommendation, though, is to make sure no mail is lost. 'This is a risk management practice, and you need to decide where you want to put your risk. Would you rather risk getting spam with lower risk of losing/delaying messages you actually wanted to get, or would you rather risk losing/delaying legitimate messages with lower risk of spam? You can't have both, no matter how loudly you scream.'"

168 comments

  1. Nothing lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Their first recommendation, though, is to make sure no mail is lost.

    Nice goal, but you are going to lose mail. It is either going to get buried in the pile of spam or misclassified as spam by your software and pitched. What you need to do is pick an acceptable level -- it is all about trade-offs.

    I like to REJECT (not bounce!) spam, so when you accidentally mark good stuff as spam, the sender has a chance to get the message to you later.

    1. Re:Nothing lost? by Skater · · Score: 1

      I like to REJECT (not bounce!) spam, so when you accidentally mark good stuff as spam, the sender has a chance to get the message to you later.

      Yeah, thanks. Then when someone fakes my email address as the return address, I get thousands of bounce messages.

    2. Re:Nothing lost? by mabu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A good RBL-based system never loses mail. Any legitimate mail that is blocked causes the original sender to be notified. Content-based filtering systems don't work like that scheme, so people that use mail filtering do lost more legitimate mail, and the worse part is, the senders never know their mail was lost. This is why content-based filtering doesn't work and RBLs do.

    3. Re:Nothing lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, thanks. Then when someone fakes my email address as the return address, I get thousands of bounce messages.

      Did you miss the part about:

      I like to REJECT (not bounce!) spam

      If I reject the mail, then you'll only get a message back if your SMTP server was the one that was sending it. If I bounce the mail, then you'll a message even if it was forged elsewhere.

      People who bounce spam are almost as bad as the spammers. Rejecting spam is much better than just deleting it because it gives the sender a chance to fix your mistake.

    4. Re:Nothing lost? by Skater · · Score: 1

      Ah, okay. I didn't catch that distinction. Sorry - I'm just bitter from the thousands of messages I've had to clean up, including a mailbomb or two.

    5. Re:Nothing lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You can use rejects with either RBL or content-based filtering. You just have to have the SMTP server in the loop when you are doing the filtering. With your RBL you can reject after the envelope, but with spamassassin (or whatever) you reject after the data. Most systems aren't set up that way for various reasons, but if you have control over your MTA you can do it right.

    6. Re:Nothing lost? by digitig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      RBL-based systems do lose mail. A potential customer emails me and a competitor with a request for a quotation. From me they get a blacklist notification, from my competitor they get a quotation. The potential customer, upset at being accused of being a spammer, never bothers trying to email me again. I've not only lost their original email but I've lost all future email from them too.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    7. Re:Nothing lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on the sort of business your in - we would never reject email either for the same reason as you, but I'm glad one of our suppliers did. Badly configured server (open relay), got on Spamcop's blacklist, suppliers server rejected it - which was the only warning we had.

      Result: we fixed our server, and gained respect for their IT guys.

    8. Re:Nothing lost? by secolactico · · Score: 2, Informative

      Indeed. Problem is, examining the data is a problem when you get a huge influx of email regularly. You can always host spamassassin on a separate server and call it from the smtp server, I guess.

      I know several people has said it on this thread and on almost all mail/spam threads, but it can't be stressed enough: Reject the message on the SMTP phase! DO NOT accept the message and then bounce it. I guess viruses you can discard if you want, but DO NOT bounce them!

      Exchange admins, please configure your server to properly reject unknown users. Thanks.

      --
      No sig
    9. Re:Nothing lost? by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      If I reject the mail, then you'll only get a message back if your SMTP server was the one that was sending it. If I bounce the mail, then you'll a message even if it was forged elsewhere.
      Err, no. If you reject a mail, the SMTP server that tried to connect to your SMTP server (and got a 5xx response) will send a bounce message back to what it perceives as the sender - who is almost certainly forged in a spam e-mail.

      People who bounce spam are almost as bad as the spammers. Rejecting spam is much better than just deleting it because it gives the sender a chance to fix your mistake.
      You want the sender to fix your mistake? Somehow, I don't think you meant that.
      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    10. Re:Nothing lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err, no. If you reject a mail, the SMTP server that tried to connect to your SMTP server (and got a 5xx response) will send a bounce message back to what it perceives as the sender - who is almost certainly forged in a spam e-mail.

      Only if you have a badly mis-configured SMTP server. I supposed spammers *could* use a badly mis-configured SMTP server, but in my experience all the bounces I get for forged spam are from the recipient's MTA. The botnets are interested in pumping out as much spam as possible, not handling rejects. (And what would be the point? The spammers know perfectly well that 99.9% of the addresses they are forging are bogus.)

      You want the sender to fix your mistake? Somehow, I don't think you meant that.

      Sure I do. If I bounce Aunt Sally's recipe for double-chocolate mango pie, I want her MTA to let her know the message wasn't delivered. Otherwise, there isn't any opportunity to fix the mistake. Of course, I'd prefer not to make a mistake in classifying a message as spam, but no system is perfect. Just how do you handle false positives?

    11. Re:Nothing lost? by mckyj57 · · Score: 1

      Err, no. If you reject a mail, the SMTP server that tried to connect to your SMTP server (and got a 5xx response) will send a bounce message back to what it perceives as the sender - who is almost certainly forged in a spam e-mail.

      I don't think you know what you are talking about.

      Sure, if you have a bogus mail server which would just forward random spam, it would do that. But presumably your mail server does not.

      Someone has to handle a misaddressed message. The way to handle it is as the OP said, to reject it. That way the sending mail server has the bounce on *it's* head. If it is doing the wrong thing, that is it's problem. The person rejecting has done the best it is possible to do.

    12. Re:Nothing lost? by joost · · Score: 1

      Yours is a common fear, but as you might know, fear is a poor motivation.

      I can truly say there is a way to use the pleasure of RBLs, or more appropriately DNSBLs and never, ever, ever reject legitimate mail. That is simply to use the RIGHT dnsbls.

      Forget about spews and others. These are quite aggresive.

      Use the spamhaus sbl-xbl and see your amount of spammy connections plummet. Use just this one. It ONLY lists confirmed, actual spammer IPs that have gone through a rigorous validation process. Also, Spamhaus is an open organisation and they have excellent, and quick, delisting policies.

      Really. Just use this one and cut your time spent on spam in half. You WILL like it.

      I am NOT affiliated with them, and besides they're free anyway.

    13. Re:Nothing lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I bounce Aunt Sally's recipe for double-chocolate mango pie, I want her MTA to let her know the message wasn't delivered
      I've had plenty of backwash spam caused by MTAs bouncing rejected spam to my eaddr forged as the sender. I've got an eaddr that is now causing backwash spam: being full (with 1000 spam) the SMTP server is REJECTING all messages for that eaddr resulting in the connecting MTA to bounce the message back to what it perceives to be Aunt Sally, but is actally Uncle Rodney who has forged Aunt Sally's eaddr as the sender.
    14. Re:Nothing lost? by kisielk · · Score: 1

      Damn, mis-moderated. Posting here to undo my moderation.

    15. Re:Nothing lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
      Frankly I find this hard to believe.

      Just to be clear:

      • Eve is a spammer sending mail
      • Clueless ISP (clueless.xxx) is being used to send the spam
      • Alice's address (alice@alicedomain.xxx) is being forged by Eve
      • Bob at bobdomain.xxx is the intended receiver for the spam
      Typically Eve sends an amazing offer "from" alice@alicedomain.xxx through clueless.com to bob@bobdomain.xxx. If Bob bounces the spam, it would go from bobdomain.xxx directly to alicedomain.xxx. I suspect this is what you are seeing, and happens because Bob is doing his spam filtering after he has accepted the message from clueless.xxx.


      If Bob rejects the spam while in the process of receiving it from clueless.xxx, clueless.xxx would get a bad status code. Chances are the mail program is just a bot which would ignore the error (or retry the same message a couple of times). If Eve is using an MTA on clueless like exim or sendmail, and it is badly configured, then Alice might see a bounce message generated by clueless.xxx. Alice can complain to the administrators at clueless, or get clueless added to RBLs. The good news for Alice in this situation is that she isn't dealing with thousands of bots. In any case, Bob didn't send a bounce message, he just didn't accept the incoming mail.


      Rejecting spam at the SMTP level is the best practice, and is different than bouncing spam.

  2. WTF? by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How does the CIO not understand what the IT deparment is doing and still become CIO? Can someone clue me in on the way a manager can know nothing of what they manage and still be a manager?

    --
    Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    1. Re:WTF? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because the people who appoint them don't understand IT either and believe it to be so simple that anyone can manage it.

    2. Re:WTF? by cavtroop · · Score: 1

      Welcome to big corporate America, where it's not what you know, but who.

    3. Re:WTF? by winkydink · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The majority of the CIO's I know come from the Apps side of the house, not the Ops side. Please note, I said the majority, not all.

      Do you really believe that a CIO understands all of the underlying technology in the IT department, even at a basic level? Trust me, most don't. It's near impossible, especially when most CIO's haven't been individual contributors for many years.

      --

      "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

    4. Re:WTF? by IL-CSIXTY4 · · Score: 1

      Many CIOs today cut their teeth on the systems of yesterday, and have spent many years in middle and upper management since their days "in the trenches". They've gotten good at management, but they've lost touch with the day to day realities of what they're managing.

      For example, a CIO I worked under advised us that we could increase the efficiency of our database-driven app by reading the records in a random-access manner, rather than processing the whole "file" of orders sequentially each time we wanted to retrieve a record.

    5. Re:WTF? by melikamp · · Score: 2, Insightful
    6. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does the CIO not understand what the IT department is doing and still become CIO? Can someone clue me in on the way a manager can know nothing of what they manage and still be a manager?

      That answer is easy, they kiss up and ??it down. No kidding, do you think big organizations want rational disciplined people at the top? Technical people rarely make it into management ranks and when they do it is with a "few" tech companies only. When they do, they tend to either not last long or become quite a success for their organizations.

      North American I/T hasn't promoted from with in its organizations for decades. It is also why CIOs don't know much.

      If nothing else, a CEOs perspective of a good CIO isn't the same as who you would want to teach your daughter. For your daughter would not know the word NO and would always be bent over.

    7. Re:WTF? by beakerMeep · · Score: 1

      The article seems to be a tool for CIOs to educate CEOs . But I like your "I-didn't-read-the-article-but- im-going-to-feign-indignance-anyways" thing you got going there.

      --
      meep
    8. Re:WTF? by rucs_hack · · Score: 4, Insightful

      managers manage well by having people below them who know their jobs. That way they manage the people themselves, not micromanage everything they have to do.

      A good manager should appear to have very little to do, because everything is so well organised.

      A bad manager is very easy to spot. People under them feel unsupported, become over relient on rules and regulations, and everything takes so long to do that nothing gets done.

      I've experienced both types of management, the bad type is painful. When I've managed (in medicine) I worked very hard to train my people to trust in their own abilities and take on and enjoy responsibility.

      Nothing to do with spam in this post I realise, but then I hate spam, nasty fatty stuff.

    9. Re:WTF? by Jonny+do+good · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How does the CIO not understand what the IT deparment is doing and still become CIO? Can someone clue me in on the way a manager can know nothing of what they manage and still be a manager?

      Because managers are there to manage, not to be technicians. The most effective managers should know something about what they manage, but they do not need to know the details. They are supposed to be "big-picture" people and leave the details to the experts they hire. When a manager knows too much about what they manage they tend to micro-manage and I am sure we all dislike that more than ignorant managers.

      Personally I would rather have a manager that gives me the responsibility and flexibility to make the decisions that are within the scope of my job function who knows nothing about what I do and how I do it than one that is more knowledgable but ties my hands when it comes to getting things done. The CIO should dictate the overarching business strategy to the IS department and help ensure that their work helps accomplish the goals of that strategy. The details are for the rest of the department to figure out. Remember, the IS department is a supporting function, no different from accounting, marketing, or HR... it is not the business.

      I'm sure I will be flamed for this response, but it is typical of technical people (not just IT, but in all functions) to have disdain for those in charge because they don't know what we know. But it isn't their job to, or else they would have no reason to hire us. A CIO position is NOT a technical position. Expecting a CIO to know everthing going on in the IS department is the same as expecting the CEO to know it as well.

    10. Re:WTF? by JimDaGeek · · Score: 1

      Oh...Boy!!!

      I have worked for 3 fortune xxx companies. None of the CIO/CTO have know _anything_ about IT. Nothing. All have been business people that were transfered from some other department. A lot of the bigger companies like to play "musical manager" where the "upper" level management gets moved around so they know more roles of the company. This gets them promoted faster... go figure.

      I just recently went through a corporate re-org. The new CIO is actually a "financial" chick (though her knowledge there is _very_ limited) and has as much knowledge about computers as my 84 year old grandmother-in-law, seriously! Maybe she slept with the right people? Oh, and I don't mean that to be some anti-feminist. Our previous CIO was a real retard, I was surprised if he could even log in properly with a username and password.

      P.S. I am saying all of this as a senior programmer, not a system admin. I felt sooooo bad for my good friends that were admins. Damn, those dude had to deal with a lot of crap. :-)

      God, it makes me sick.

      --
      General, you are listening to a machine! Do the world a favor and don't act like one.
    11. Re:WTF? by JimDaGeek · · Score: 1

      For example, a CIO I worked under advised us that we could increase the efficiency of our database-driven app by reading the records in a random-access manner, rather than processing the whole "file" of orders sequentially each time we wanted to retrieve a record.
      Oh man... I just spit something out of my nose! Did anyone correct your CIO? To me this sounds like the last time this dude had _any_ knowledge of IT, it was with COBOL/CICS type stuff.

      May you be blessed my son :-)
      --
      General, you are listening to a machine! Do the world a favor and don't act like one.
    12. Re:WTF? by Jonny+do+good · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's The Dilbert Principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dilbert_Principle

    13. Re:WTF? by t14m4t · · Score: 1

      I work at the Naval Submarine School in Groton, CT. Actually, I'm the CIO there (until the 26th when I transfer to Norfolk), how apropos.

      Anyway, I took over the job when the fileserver crashed, and the CIO at the time didn't understand the difference between a workstation and a server, and couldn't figure out what "no backup" meant. Bless her soul, she's a great leader over a good many things. But she was assigned to the job because the commanding officer at the time was not IT-savvy, and said "it's just management of people, the techs know what they're doing."

      After she was fired, they looked for someone IT-smart. I e-mailed my boss and said "I've been doing IT support for 3 or 4 years, one on a submarine, two in college, and several months in the Computer Science department after graduation while waiting for follow-on schooling. And I have a BS in CS." They took about 2 minutes to give me the job. That's how long it took for them to receive the e-mail.

      Anyway, enough rambling, my point is that I can understand how it happens. You don't have to be IT-smart to become CIO. You just have to demonstrate to whomever is hiring that you can get the job done.

      weylin

      --
      67.5% Slashdot Pure I guess I need to work on that.... :)
    14. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The CIO should dictate the overarching business strategy to the IS department and help ensure that their work helps accomplish the goals of that strategy.

      Management should be a two way street. A CIO that just goes to meetings and nods his heads and agrees isn't worth anything when he comes back to the IS department and dictates to them that the CEO just changed vendors on a major software component over golf yesterday, and the windows application has to be rewritten to run on netware 3.11 in time for the product launch next week.

      A CIO who actually knew what his employees were working with and how the proposed changes affect them would (hopefully) at least offer a weak protest or a demand for a schedule change thanks to the last minute specification change. Anything to make the xOs understand that it's not the IS department's fault that they can't keep up with a whimsical captain.

    15. Re:WTF? by nighty5 · · Score: 1

      Because the higher you go, the more you manage just people, resources and money.

      What they actually do has little to do with it, this is especially the case in larger govt organisations where the CIO's are people with almost no understanding of computers.

    16. Re:WTF? by StarvingSE · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Managers may have lost touch with the latest techno-babble, but they should not be berated because of it. They are obviously smart individuals who were neck deep in the technology of their time. When you are a manager, you have a reasonable level of expectation that your employees will be knowledgeable of the most current technology.

      Many high level concepts such as requirements, design, group management, etc can be managed by people and they don't have to have intimate knowledge of the latest technology. I am not saying that management should not learn it, but they should expect their employees to be the experts.

      Why is it that there are a lot of people in IT who are so snobbish "omg!!!@!!!.... you don't know about xyz technology, you made a mistake hahahhadjhaflkdjfs luser." Are other technical/engineering fields like this? (not a knock on the parent post, just askin' in general).

      --
      I got nothin'
    17. Re:WTF? by IL-CSIXTY4 · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between not knowing how to write code for Hibernate and not understanding what a relational database is.

      C-level managers are making decisions that effect the entire department under them, and set the direction of the company. It's fine if a CIO doesn't know the nuts & bolts of the technology in use, but they should at least understand the basic concepts. That's why things like CIO Magazine and CompTIA's i-Net+ certification exist. They boil down technologies to the essential things someone in that position needs to know.

      They've honed their management & decision-making skills over the years. But they should have some clue about what it is they're managing, or else they're just a highly-paid suit in a fancy office.

    18. Re:WTF? by thogard · · Score: 1

      That is why I'm disappointed that it didn't focus on the "go talk to your local elected official about making this illegal"

      Spamers have stolen the usefulness of email away and if its not fixed real soon, it will be completely worthless to more and more people. I'm hearing from more and more people "oh, I don't check email much anymore, its all junk"

    19. Re:WTF? by thogard · · Score: 1

      That old guy was so wrong. Doesn't he know with modern virtual memory based disk access we can write have programs that opens a huge text file and reads through the entire thing faster than we can set up the connection to the sql server to ask it to look in an index?

    20. Re:WTF? by Ykant · · Score: 1

      I'm constantly reminded how lucky I am. About ten years ago, my current CIO was the person who did all the coding, back when the company was much smaller. We've grown a lot, there's an actual IT department of 20 now (as opposed to the three "computer people" we started with) but everything is still built on the stuff she coded way back when. She spent many late nights coding, coding, coding, up until about 3 or 4 years ago. She's happy enough with the current team that she's taken a step back, and just worries about the big picture. She is our biggest advocate and in our corner, but can be extremely demanding. But of all the people at the top, she's the one who knows what's within the realm of possibility. She makes some tough demands, but at least they're informed ones.

      --
      Spelling, grammar, punctuation? We need something that checks logic.
    21. Re:WTF? by Nimloth · · Score: 2, Funny

      Do you really believe that a CIO understands all of the underlying technology in the IT department, even at a basic level? Trust me, most don't.
      QFT... I'm in the process of customizing SugarCRM Open Source for our company's needs, and after I'd pitched a demo to my CIO to show him what we'd be able to do with it once finished, he was really impressed. A week later I hear him in a meeting with management: "Yeah, it's open source, which means it's the same guys that did this that wrote Linux.".
      *shrug* At least I got management approval :P
    22. Re:WTF? by Jonny+do+good · · Score: 1

      A CIO that just goes to meetings and nods his heads and agrees isn't worth anything when he comes back to the IS department and dictates to them that the CEO just changed vendors on a major software component over golf yesterday, and the windows application has to be rewritten to run on netware 3.11 in time for the product launch next week.

      I would completely agree with you. My point is that the CEO and CIO don't always need to be involved in operational decisions at the technical level. In smaller companies they may have to deal with the issues you speak of. In a larger organization the CEO shouldn't care at all about vendors or tactical decisions made in the IT department. The job of a CIO isn't to dictate what products are used to accomplish a particular goal, it should be to dictacte the goal and let the people that have to implement the steps needed to accomplish that goal make the decisions they need to in order to get there. The CIO should understand things at a higher level, for example: they should understand what a spam filter is, if it seems to work, how much it costs to implement (software, hardware, and other resources), and is it in line with an organizational goal; but how it works shouldn't matter, only that it does or doesn't help reduce wasted resources.

      In your example both the CIO and CEO are incompetent. They shouldn't be dictating a vendor change, the person or team that is implementing the end goal should be making those decisions. If the CIO is part of the team implementing the changes then it would stand to reason that they know what is going on, but in most cases they are there to keep the IT department from running wild and just implementing things that they think are cool but make little or no contribution to the business. The CIO position was corporate America's response to IT departments buying cool toys with little or no value to the organization. An MIS manager with some technical knowledge (or his/her team) should be making the decisions you were writing about.

    23. Re:WTF? by AeroIllini · · Score: 1

      Why is it that there are a lot of people in IT who are so snobbish "omg!!!@!!!.... you don't know about xyz technology, you made a mistake hahahhadjhaflkdjfs luser." Are other technical/engineering fields like this? (not a knock on the parent post, just askin' in general).

      Yeah, they are.

      When you talk about the snobby people in IT, you're usually referring to those at the bottom of the heap, organizationally. These are the guys in the server room who don't really have the authority to make any decisions, and who are simply working on the day-to-day operations of the IT department.

      Compare this with trench engineers at any engineering/manufacturing firm. I work as an engineer at a very large engineering/manufacturing firm, and let me tell you, engineers are terrible when it comes to lording minutiae over people's heads. Being able to quote stress calculation numbers for some part we designed a decade ago is a badge of pride. Additionally, those in our organization who are not engineers, but who are also at the bottom, pride themselves in their detailed knowledge of the bureaucracy. These are the people who are always quoting process specs and operations manuals to get their way, and they come off as very snotty and arrogant.

      The ones who are not that way inevitably get promoted out of the bottom level of the organization, and I'm sure the same is true in IT departments. People who continue with that attitude will always stay at the bottom, allowing them to become bitter and feed their own need to justify their existence by lording minutiae over people's heads.
      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    24. Re:WTF? by greenbird · · Score: 1

      Lets see where to start...

      When a manager knows too much about what they manage they tend to micro-manage and I am sure we all dislike that more than ignorant managers.

      Having extensive knowledge of what one manages doesn't cause one to micro-manage. A lack of management skills is what causes one to micro-manage. To put it more bluntly crappy managers micro-manage, typically whether they have extensive knowledge of what they're managing or not.

      Personally I would rather have a manager that gives me the responsibility and flexibility to make the decisions that are within the scope of my job function who knows nothing about what I do and how I do it than one that is more knowledgable but ties my hands when it comes to getting things done.

      Again, this is a function of management ability and has nothing to do with the level of knowledge of what is being managed.

      The CIO should dictate the overarching business strategy to the IS department and help ensure that their work helps accomplish the goals of that strategy. The details are for the rest of the department to figure out. Remember, the IS department is a supporting function, no different from accounting, marketing, or HR... it is not the business.

      The problem here is that in order to "dictate overarching business strategy" one needs to understand the effects of said dictating at all levels. Without a thorough understanding of the options how can you select the best strategy? The next argument is they just need to hire people with the detailed knowledge to explain the effects. There are several problems with this. First if the CIO is going to base all his decisions on what his underling tells him what the hell do you need a CIO for. Second without thorough knowledge of IT how can you know who to hire to give you advice. Third whoever you hire is going to have predispositions towards their areas of expertise. If you hire a Windows expert everything is going to be Windows. If you hire a Java expert everything is going to be Java. If you hire a Web expert everything is going to be Web.

      I'm sure I will be flamed for this response, but it is typical of technical people (not just IT, but in all functions) to have disdain for those in charge because they don't know what we know.

      No they tend to have disdain for those in charge when those in charge repeatably tell them to implement solutions they know are less then optimal and then those in charge blame them when the less then optimal solution is less then optimal even though those in charge were told at the start it would be less then optimal. They make decisions based on who talked to them last since they don't have the knowledge to evaluate the options based on each options merit.

      A CIO position is NOT a technical position.

      It should be if you want the best from your IS.

      --
      Who is John Galt?
    25. Re:WTF? by Jonny+do+good · · Score: 1

      A lack of management skills is what causes one to micro-manage.

      I will agree with you on this point, although you are missing mine. It isn't that technical ability detracts from management skills, it is that managerial talent has nothing to do with technical ability.

      The problem here is that in order to "dictate overarching business strategy" one needs to understand the effects of said dictating at all levels. Without a thorough understanding of the options how can you select the best strategy?

      Here you don't get the point. IT should have very little to do with a business strategy, it is a supporting function for almost every company. A company doesn't rely on accounting, finance, or HR to dictate strategy does it? No, it uses accounting in order to ensure that goals are being met by measuring the metrics dictated by the strategy and reporting that information to management. The only supporting function that usually is involved in strategy formation is marketing because they tend to be the eyes and ears in the field and have an idea of what the customer wants.

      First if the CIO is going to base all his decisions on what his underling tells him what the hell do you need a CIO for.

      A CIO shouldn't just take everything his so called "underlings" tell him/her at face value. As I have said, the CIO must determine if the advice really will help meet the strategic objectives. Being able to make judgements without complete information is part of life, and those with talent at it are good strategists. All forward looking business decisions are made with incomplete information. A CIO has to balance the greater organizations needs with current technolical capabilities, time and monetary constraints, as well as the current infrastructure. Sure, replacing a piece of software may be a great idea from a technological standpoint (security reasons, bug fixes, etc.) but it may not provide enough of a financial benefit to the firm to justify the investment. Those financial decisions are the major consideration that a CIO should be making based on input from the tech people as well as the end users that the investment should benefit. 90% of the time if you give a tech oriented person a budget they will spend it whether it is worth it or not (this is why the CIO position was developed in the first place), if you give a non-tech person a budget for technology, 50% of the time they will only spend all of it if they can justify it financially (i.e. required return on investment). Remember that IT is NOT the business, it does not make the business, it supports the business by attempting to improve overall company efficiency... even in a tech company.

      Second without thorough knowledge of IT how can you know who to hire to give you advice.

      There are a number of ways to determine who to hire without knowing about the subject. If you need a lawyer do you have to know the law? If you need someone to build a house for you do you have to be an archetect, structural enigneer, and a contractor? No, you use references and have others that you know and trust (preferably those in the organization that do have technical expertise) be involved in the hiring process. Yes, a resume doesn't mean anything, and neither do references that you don't know, but there are plenty of ways to find out more about people.

      Third whoever you hire is going to have predispositions towards their areas of expertise.

      Exactly, you help make my point. If the CIO was a Windows, Java, or Web person they will have the exact same predispositions.

    26. Re:WTF? by Venik · · Score: 1

      CIO at our company has a law degree and no IT background (well, I am sure he knows how to use Word, not that he needs to). His second in command also has a law degree and no IT experience. I guess, as a CIO of an IT organization with thousands of employees, you will always be able to find someone with IT background to tell you how to do your job.

    27. Re:WTF? by honkycat · · Score: 1

      I think that doesn't mean he knows LESS about the technology so much as that he knows MORE about how to talk to management... As you say, he got you your approval...

    28. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can someone clue me in on the way a manager can know nothing of what they manage and still be a manager?


      This is is an extremely common situation in all technical and scientific fields. The reasons? Politics and nepotism for the most part. Though money is the the biggest one, the job market today is literally a market, jobs are for sale, if you have enough money you can buy a management job, competence is irrelevant.

      I abandoned a successful 15 year career in science after one incompetent manager too many.

      If you are unwilling to accept idiot managers, then get out now before you waste 15 years of your life like I did.

      It will never change, act accordingly.
    29. Re:WTF? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's all a matter of degrees. A CIO need not know how to configure a mail server for example, but SHOULD understand what a mail server does and have some idea of what sorts of things can be done by configuring. A CIO SHOULD know enough to tell the difference between a trivial and a herculean task. A CIO should understand enough that once something is explained, the gist of it is retained.

      For another example, a CIO should be able to understand that spam filtering is a statistical process and so errors one way or another CANNOT be eliminated with 100% confidence, or at least be able to understand that once explained.

      There are too many cases out there where CIOs seem to be lacking the most basic knowledge. For example, ad slicks tend to be packed full of lies, unwarrented assumptions and half-truths, and there are NO silver bullets.

  3. Something for nothing and spam for free by canuck57 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You can't have both, no matter how loudly you scream.

    Trouble is how many CIO understand the technology they supervise enough to make a good business judgement?

    The one thing I will tell them follows like this:

    Trust your own I/T staff for maters of technical choice and direction, they have the most to gain, the most to lose and have to live with the consequences. Vendors know how to sell problems then the solutions, users know how to blame their lack of patience and personal issues on computers. I/T personnel often are the ones to eat the heat on organizational issues beyond their control. This includes the flawed systems we use today. Let I/T participate in business descisions, not to rule but nor to be a door mat for the next irrational business type having a conniption fit.

    1. Re:Something for nothing and spam for free by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      Damn, I just replied to something else and lost my mod points. You've hit the nail on the head here. It's totally fine for the CIO to not know the details of the technology, and just manage the people (who in turn know the details of the technology). But it's not OK for the CIO who doesn't understand technology to make purchasing decisions without the input of the people who do understand the technology and will actually be directly working with the products and services being purchased.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  4. Uh, how about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just routing what you suspect as spam into a separate folder. That way, if anything looks legit in there, I can double check before deleting it. You know, leave the power with the people. Why do you guys feel the need to protect us from ourselves? Oh, nanny IT. Rather than train your people properly, just protect them from themselves... it works so well for government after all.

    1. Re:Uh, how about... by fuzza · · Score: 1

      Uh, from TFA: "Sequestering it is only slightly better than dropping it, because you have to look through the sequestered spam, and most people don't bother."

      --
      Can't find examples of evolution? No matter, neither could Dawkins
  5. The Silver Bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How to eliminate spam:

    0) Use a whitelist. Validate incoming messages against trusted keys using strong public-key encryption. This has been around for, oh, 30 years.

    1) Don't bother with any blacklists.

    2) Incoming messages not on the whitelist are automatically returned with a challenge. The user does not see the message until the challenge is solved, at which point the sender could be added to the whitelist.

    One good challenge involves finding a partial collision for a strong hash. For example, find a 12 byte string which when appended to [some 4 random bytes] hashes to [some 4 random bytes plus the remainder padded with don't care bytes]. Using a partial collision allows the difficulty to be tweaked. For example, a challenge requiring one minute of average computation could only be solved 1440 times per day. Most email would be whitelisted and spammers would not be able to solve challenges economically.

    3) No more spam!

    1. Re:The Silver Bullet by maynard · · Score: 1

      Now try to implement your suggestions on a mail server that supports 500 users or more. Good luck.

    2. Re:The Silver Bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *headdesk*
      Yes, some people use challenge/response for anything not whitelisted. Two reasons this is bad
      (1) It's annoying, hardly anybody uses it. So if e-mail is going out to you that isn't that important to the sender, but personally important to you, you might get screwed.
      (2) Collateral damage, this happens a lot. The challenge goes to the person whose address got forged. And sadly, you cannot neatly tuck full challenge messages into SMTP reject messages.

      And honestly, why do you think one slashdot poster in a couple of paragraphs has a chance of solving a problem that the experts haven't been able to yet?

    3. Re:The Silver Bullet by imroy · · Score: 1

      Anonymous Coward said:

      Incoming messages not on the whitelist are automatically returned with a challenge.

      Translation:

      It's not enough that I get spam, I wish to share the problem with all the people whose email addresses are being used by spammers!

      Thanks for spreading the problem, idiot.

    4. Re:The Silver Bullet by Sorthum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A horrible solution, Challenge Response is... Let's assume, for a minute, that it's all handled server-side and the user doesn't have to deal with misdirected bounces. Realize that with the advent of botnets, bandwidth and computational power is something spammers have in spades-- far more so than legitimate mailers.

      Let's also consider mailing lists. I manage a site that has tens of thousands of users, running on two MX boxes and one outbound SMTP box. I'd have to get a whole new RACK to handle the load you're suggesting...

  6. POP? by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 3, Insightful

    SMTP and POP

    Now, nothing against educating management... but POP? POP doesn't belong in the enterprise. Even at home I have my own IMAP server. POP is a relic of the dialup-time where you only had access to your own computer and nobody else (seemed) to have one.

    A shame that gmail doesn't support IMAP, I'd prefer it that way instead of that poor POP3 hack they use...

    1. Re:POP? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      POP doesn't belong in the enterprise.

      Where I work we can use either. Inboxes on the mail server have a 16MB limit and they regularly fill up. Because I need to keep more than that I use POP.

    2. Re:POP? by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      16MB? Wow... That's suckitude pure... My personal mailserver can cope 2Gig, and that's only because the /var is a separate partition of 2Gig. I don't know what it is at work, but I haven't reached it yet.... I get those funny videos all the time, but I delete them at once, so my space usage isn't all that big. Haven't heard complaints of the management types yet, so I think that the limits are very reasonable.

      Frankly, tell IT to buy a few disks.... 16MB is about what I had as a student at the University computer in 1994.

    3. Re:POP? by torrentfuze · · Score: 1

      I prefer to download all my emails and read them using POP than have to wait for the network lag to give me my emails.

    4. Re:POP? by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      I understand that, but that falls in the category "dial-up".... On a LAN, the network lag should be insignificant. Sure, that 10M powerpoint from my boss, won't open immediately, but with POP it would take ages to download it in the first place. I just delete it without opening it ;-)

    5. Re:POP? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with POP? I don't see any limitations or problems with it.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    6. Re:POP? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Then use offline IMAP. It's the best thing of both worlds: Mail's on disk, so it's quick to access, but it's also on the server so you have all your mail anywhere.

    7. Re:POP? by maynard · · Score: 1

      Try supporting 500 users using traditional unix INBOX file format. Clients must perform a linear extraction to cull out headers, which leads to tremendous scalability problems. The solution is to implement a db which creates an index of headers for clients.

      Then things get better. But that still doesn't solve all the problems with excessive spam.

      Time to dump smtp for something better.

    8. Re:POP? by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Not married, no children, eh?

      I won't start to enumerate all that is wrong with POP but consider my simple configuration: I have my own mailserver. Now if I would use POP, I would be constrained to one single machine. This does not reflect reality, we have one laptop and two desktops. Now, if I check my mail on my wifes computer (it's the one that is always on), and a good friend sends me email. Alas, I don't have time to reply at that moment. Later, my wife is shopping at amazon on her computer and I think it's a good idea to reply to that friend. Ooops... Mail gone. Wife, can you please do your amazon shopping on one of the other two computers because I need to reply to that friend.

      IMAP gives you your email on every computer regardless what one it its. POP is fine for single-computer usage and the world have moved beyond that.

    9. Re:POP? by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Hey, I'm talking about a 5 user system.... INBOX works fine for that. 100++ users should use a database, but that's simply overkill for my situation. I'm not saying that INBOX is a good solution, but 16MB mailbox is a bit small... Ever a moderatly big database can cope much more

    10. Re:POP? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      I just tick the checkbox that says "leave on server". Works fine for me.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    11. Re:POP? by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Yes, I did that too...You always get tons of mails saying they are new but they are not... and with gmail it doesn't work at all. Mails marked as read are not resent...

      IMAP is superior... Try it for a while, and you'll see the light. Not so long ago, I thought the same thing...

    12. Re:POP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try supporting 500 users using traditional unix INBOX file format.

      Then start using Maildir format and an IMAP server that supports it.

    13. Re:POP? by maynard · · Score: 1

      Damn straight. I'm working on it. Have to remove all those bullshit client nfs mounts of the mail spool first. They all expect INBOX. Once that's done - boom! - to email sanity I come!

    14. Re:POP? by AeroIllini · · Score: 1

      I work in a giant company of 150,000 employees. Each of us gets 20MB of space on the Exchange server, for mail and calendar.

      Every employee, outside of the factory, has their own computer to use at their desk, and if you need to bring files away from your desk frequently, it is not difficult to swap out your desktop for a laptop. (I'm not sure how much extra the laptop costs in a given manager's budget, but it's not much.) There are bigger network servers available for passing files around, but they are paid for by managers' budgets, on an as-needed basis.

      No one really has a need to log on to a computer that's not their own, so it makes sense to distribute storage capacity for email among the employees' desktops and laptops, instead of sinking money into giant datacenters. Those desktops and laptops have disk space available, anyway.

      This system seems to work well for the company. Occasionally someone with a desktop wishes they had network access during a meeting, but if that happens often enough, their manager just upgrades them to a laptop which they bring to meetings. There is secure wireless available everywhere, and everyone with a laptop gets a docking station at their desk, including a real keyboard, real mouse, and real LCD screen.

      Outside of college, I've never really been in a situation where I've needed to log onto lots of random computers and still have network access to my files/email. 16-20 MB is not unreasonable.

      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    15. Re:POP? by operagost · · Score: 1

      Those desktops and laptops have disk space available, anyway.
      And it's all backed up daily, I'm sure.

      Outside of college, I've never really been in a situation where I've needed to log onto lots of random computers and still have network access to my files/email.
      So I take it you never work from home or the road, and are never on call. Some people are.

      16-20 MB is not unreasonable.
      Yes it is. Maybe you can have some sort of draconian company policy that totally disallows attachments (even then, 16 MB is easily filled with mere days of email), but what about emails from vendors and customers? Do you just strip them out and say, "tough luck"?
      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    16. Re:POP? by AeroIllini · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And it's all backed up daily, I'm sure.

      As a matter of fact, it is. Each backup diff file is compressed, encrypted, and stored on a server, every day.

      So I take it you never work from home or the road, and are never on call.

      People work from home and the road all the time. I've done it myself. You bring your laptop home with you, and tunnel into the company network via a VPN. People on call are issued Blackberries, and special accounts that expand to fill their needs. These people are in the extreme minority.

      Maybe you can have some sort of draconian company policy that totally disallows attachments (even then, 16 MB is easily filled with mere days of email), but what about emails from vendors and customers? Do you just strip them out and say, "tough luck"?

      It's really not a problem. Emails with attachments are typically transfered to personal folders on my hard drive, in Outlook. They show up right there next to all my other mail, in the only place I ever check my mail (on my laptop). The only difference between online and offline mail is which folder they're in.

      And data to/from suppliers is strictly controlled, and usually goes through a separate network system that can track submission, review, approval, and scheduling. In the rare case it's sent through email, it gets put on my hard drive with everything else.

      The only thing that's different from a 2GB mail system is that you have to create and maintain folders separate from your inbox. Oh, the horror of it all! I must be organized to use my allotted space efficiently!

      Get a grip. If you have 2GB of email that you are currently working on RIGHT NOW, then you need an administrative assistant. If you're done with it, sweep it into an offline folder. It's not rocket science.
      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
  7. You can have some of both by timeOday · · Score: 1

    Would you rather risk getting spam with lower risk of losing/delaying messages you actually wanted to get, or would you rather risk losing/delaying legitimate messages with lower risk of spam? You can't have both, no matter how loudly you scream.'
    This is misleading. There's no reason one spam filter cannot provide both higher sensitivity and higher specificity than some other inferior spam filter. Once you pick a filter then, yes, there is a tradeoff in selecting your decision boundary.
  8. Why Is It? by George+Johnston · · Score: 2, Funny

    Was my spam filter installed backwards? It seems to let the ads through and trashes emails from my friends... Don't mind me, I am just auditioning for a CIO job. It pays a lot better.

    --
    Orignator of the Miserable Failure Googlebomb
  9. Beware the combination of spam and UETA by grandpa-geek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Around 2000 there was legislation adopted in many states called the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act (UETA). Under UETA a legal notice sent by email is considered delivered to the recipient when it enters the recipient's ISP, regardless of whether the recipient ever sees the email. This was the UETA drafters' attempt to create the equivalent of something called the "mail box rule" for email. AFAIK, under the mail box rule, if you give a legal notice to the post office, it is considered delivered.

    There are numerous examples of legitimate emails getting caught in spam filters, and there are ways to format a legal notice to raise the likelihood that it will be caught by a spam filter.

    In addition to educating our corporate managements, we also need to educate legislators about this and to get UETA amended in the various states to recognize the realities of todays electronic commerce environment.

    1. Re:Beware the combination of spam and UETA by nuzak · · Score: 1

      > AFAIK, under the mail box rule, if you give a legal notice to the post office, it is considered delivered.

      Delivered, yes. Received, no. Try serving a subpoena that way.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
  10. Five Things Everybody Needs To Know About Spam by mabu · · Score: 5, Informative

    Forget CIOs... there are many system administrators who don't know the real issues regarding spam. Here are some things everyone needs to know:

    1. Content filtering is not a solution.

    I hate to say it, but it's the truth. Filtering mail based on what's in the e-mail message is a never-ending battle that does not work. It slows down mail service, causes legitimate mail to be blocked more often than using RBLs, and violates peoples privacy, costs more money to maintain and makes the mail system inherently less efficient and reliable.

    E-mail used to be instantaneous. Now it isn't, because all the major ISPs toss their mail into big queues where they go over it and file it away or pass it on. If you send something to a Bellsouth users nowadays, they *might* get it 6+ hours later! Stupid, content filtering doesn't work and creates worse problems.

    2. The Spam problem is mostly a law enforcement issue and not a technological issue.

    99.9% of spammers break the law. The reason why spamming is such a problem is because national and international authorities won't get off their lazy asses and prosecute the spammers for the laws they break. In the end, you'll do more to reduce spam by petitioning your local district attorney to prosecute spammers than installing some obnoxious cpu-chewing filter that will become obsolete within two weeks. And no, the jurisdiction issue is bogus. Technology exists to track all these spammers right back to where they are. There are spammers all over the world and especially in the U.S. that can and should be in jail right now, but they're not because the Feds are more interested in going after people like Tommy Chong. Call your D.A. Call your Congressman. Complain that your reps aren't putting these guys in jail.

    When I say "spam" I mean the big spam operations. The industry can easily police itself of low-level, incompetent opt-in schemes, but that's not the real "spam" problem we're talking about.

    3. Don't listen to the anti-virus/anti-spyware software companies.

    These companies make their living off of spam. There is an inherent conflict of interest in relying on Symantec or any other company to be trusted to help deal with the spam problem. They need spam and they'll never do what's necessary to stop spam from becoming more of a problem. This is analagous to why car manufacturers won't build more reliable/efficient cars when they are capable of doing so -- it's not profitable for them. Stop looking to McAffee or any of these other foxes to be trusted in helping you guard your henhouse.

    4. Most anti-spam methods do nothing to stop spam, except relay blacklisting.

    Spammers steal bandwidth, violate peoples' security, tamper with third-party computers and bog down the Internet. Content-based filtering does not hurt spammers. RBLs do. Relay blacklisting is the single most effective deterrent in the war on spam. PERIOD. No other method both stops spam, and makes it exponentially more expensive and troublesome for spammers to do their job.

    Relay blacklisting works. If you don't like RBLs, chances are you just had a bad experience with a bad one. Try a different one or create your own. They work. They work exceptionally well and best of all, they save bandwidth and resources from the spammer's grimy hands. They also have the added benefit of stopping the propagation of worms and punishing irresponsible ISPs who allow their zombie users to pollute the Internet. There is NO BETTER THING CURRENTLY you can do to combat the spam war than by feeding and using RBLs (aside from following #2 and complaining that spammers aren't being prosecuted).

    5. There are not that many spam operations. The spam epidemic is not unstoppable.

    The amount of spam going around on the Internet has increased but only proportionally to the amount of user and bandwidth growth, and not due to more and more people getting into the spam business. A cursory examination of most spam clearly indicates that there are

    1. Re:Five Things Everybody Needs To Know About Spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      1. Content filtering is not a solution.


      It's certainly part of the solution. For me at least. And I get a lot of spam every day.

      2. The Spam problem is mostly a law enforcement issue and not a technological issue.


      Yeah, just like robbery. Don't hold your breath.

      3. Don't listen to the anti-virus/anti-spyware software companies.

      Don't you think you're a bit too paranoid?

      4. Most anti-spam methods do nothing to stop spam, except relay blacklisting.

      Maybe this is your favorite solution. But black lists do not work. If you have experienced problems it is just a sign that they do not work. Spammers use bot nets, and change addresses just for that.
      I use a combination of white listing and content filtering, and it is working great.

      5. There are not that many spam operations. The spam epidemic is not unstoppable.

      Look, spammers will never go away. Just as commercial propaganda in snail mail. Even if it's illegal.

    2. Re:Five Things Everybody Needs To Know About Spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >1. Content filtering is not a solution.
                Yes it is. It's not good, but it works. ISPs with 6 hour backlogs are just not spending the cash needed to keep enough filtering hardware in place, and/or bought inefficient filtering packages, didn't optimize it any, etc. Fixed filters are bad, but a bayesian filter works GREAT. I pulled about 800 messages a while back, 140 spam properly flagged (with no messages falsely flagged as spam), and like 2 spams that got through.. I'm subscribed to several security mailing lists, and the 2 spams had security mailing list excerpts in the body, so I'm not surprised they weren't flagged 8-). Anyway, with something like spamprobe, it took maybe 2 weeks to start blocking some spam, and maybe another 2 weeks to become "mostly" effective. It's just gotten better from there.

      >2. The Spam problem is mostly a law enforcement issue and not a >technological issue.

                Yes you're right. But the police, FTC, etc. don't seem to have anyone with the technical ability to track spammers down, and are so spotty about enforcement, that they might as well not exist.

      >3. Don't listen to the anti-virus/anti-spyware software companies.
                Right again. Putting a virus filter on the E-Mail isn't a bad idea, but I wouldn't use them for spam filtering.

      >4. Most anti-spam methods do nothing to stop spam, except relay >blacklisting.

                Most spam is now sent via random Windows boxes that get cracked and are used to send spam. From what I hear of some BIG operations (that aren't getting these 6 hour delays and crap), they will use blacklists as an INITIAL filter to knock out some spam, but then do other filtering to catch the rest.

      >5. There are not that many spam operations. The spam epidemic is not >unstoppable.
                You are right.

      >Why are so few people responsible for such a big problem and why is nobody >really going after them? That's a more important issue to investigate.

                Hear hear! I wonder if the FTC etc. even realize they could arrest like 10 people and take care of most spam? Until they do something, or some vigilantes take care of the spammers for them (hint hint!), knowing that just 5 or 10 people are sending doesn't help block though -- they're usually using illegally constructed botnets to send the spam. These spammers tend to have enough cash and no sense of morals to abuse the legal system; "regular people" that have tried to hassle spammers tend to get sued; witness spammers suing some of the spammer blacklists by trying to claim they aren't spammers; in a few cases the judge even sided with them! Insane but true.

    3. Re:Five Things Everybody Needs To Know About Spam by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      4. Most anti-spam methods do nothing to stop spam, except relay blacklisting.

      Greylisting is quite effective as well; partially because it pushes the economics of spamming back on the spammers.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:Five Things Everybody Needs To Know About Spam by xdroop · · Score: 1

      Greylisting is quite effective as well; partially because it pushes the economics of spamming back on the spammers.
      Greylisting works in the large end of the small market; it doesn't work elsewhere.

      In order for greylisting to work:

      • you have to have control over your own domain and operate all the systems which are listed as MX'ers for that domain. Why? Because if you have a secondary or tertiary MX system hosted by a different ISP, then all your spam is going to get relayed in via that system. Which, because it contacts you, is trusted by the greylisting service.
      • you have to have a situation where people will tolerate the delays in incoming mail. A delay is fine for my personal email, since I look at it, what, twice a day? However my CEO and CTO and Director of Marketing will get pissed off because the message that this potential business partner or customer or suppler or whatever said they sent right now while on the phone didn't get to him.
      So that makes it perfect for us smart folks who own our own domain and handle practically nothing except personal messages, and for small companies who are big enough to have handed over their email to smart folks like us but are naive enough to trust/believe/accept us when we say that's just the way it is.

      My momma? She's stuck with her ISP. Who is probably using all the blacklists they can lay their grubbies on (including those f*ckwads at secureserver.net, may they BUUUUURN) and which probably cuts the incoming spamload by 80 to 90%.

      Bigger companies believe that email should be here NOW, and for the most part they ain't gonna play the greylisting game.

      I know. I admin several domains, and spam has sucked all the fun out of email administration. We used to greylist, but it just wasn't worth the hassle from higher-ups. So now the secondary MXs all use a few select black hole lists, and all the surviving email goes through a barracuda before being delivered on to the end-user's mailbox. Works well enough for now, and cuts out easilly 99% of the incoming blizzard with an acceptably low false-positive rate.

      --
      you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
    5. Re:Five Things Everybody Needs To Know About Spam by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Bigger companies believe that email should be here NOW, and for the most part they ain't gonna play the greylisting game.

      Hmm, all the ones I've work with I explain that I induce a 3 minute delay on our side, that the other side may retry at a slow interval, but that after three good messages, there's no delay, and that it reduces spam by 75-80%. Every time I hear, "that's a no brainer!". I don't greylist internal mails.

      I used to use postgrey but bdb eats itself whenever the moon is waxing - sqlgrey is really nice!

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    6. Re:Five Things Everybody Needs To Know About Spam by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Content filtering is the only workable solution I've found. If done right, it doesn't slow anything down at all (my own email is instantaneous), and is more accurate than anything else -- I NEVER lose mail, the worst that ever happens is it goes in "unsure". I get maybe 100 spams a day, maybe 200, and less than 10 gets to "unsure", less than 1 a week gets through to my actual inbox.

      Spam cannot be solved with law enforcement. Even assuming we had a 100% reliable definition of spam, and it was illegal everywhere -- neither of which is true or can ever be true -- who are you going to sue? The person who didn't keep their Windows box free of spyware? Well, actually, I wouldn't mind that -- but you still have the problem that spammers are hard to track, and even if you do, they aren't necessarily anywhere that has antispam laws, and antispam laws are every bit as unreliable as traditional content-based filtering -- you know, the kind that specifically looks for "viagra", and requires just as many updates as antivirus software, and is just as ineffective? That's hard enough when done in Internet Time, and I seriously doubt our legal system -- or any legal system -- can keep up.

      Antivirus/antispyware -- have to agree with you there. Look instead to the open source community -- things like dspam and bogofilter, which have no vested interest in fooling you into a solution that doesn't work.

      Relay blacklisting also doesn't work -- too many false positives, too much politics involved. It also does nothing to stop zombies. I'm tempted to run some statistics on where my spam is coming from, but offhand, I'd guess at least 20% and maybe as much as 60 or 80% of it is zombies.

      And it really is pretty impossible to stop spam completely, that'd be like a "war on drugs". More than once, I've been tempted by the dark side. I think to myself that I could setup the mother of all botnets, send spam, extort gambling sites, collect credit card numbers, make myself a few million, and retire, without ever really getting caught. And I'm 20.

      I've never done that, but that's not because it's impossible, or even particularly hard.

      That doesn't mean we shouldn't try legal action, but just like security, spam is something that is actually much easier to simply do yourself. Make your network a fortress, and then worry about whether you want to actually try to punish the spammers and crackers, or just let them bounce off.

      As for me, my own solution is a simple bogofilter setup. I will modify it when I get the time (it's a personal email server) to throttle IPs and netblocks which repeatedly send large amounts of spam, but aside from the bandwidth waste, it works flawlessly. Basically, I get maybe 100-200 spams a day, which get sorted into a "spam" folder, which I glance at and delete -- there hasn't been anything legit in there for about six months. I get another 20 spams or so which go into "unsure", which occasionally has a false positive. And I get maybe 1-2 spams a week which actually make it through to my inbox.

      So it works flawlessly for me as a user, so all I need to do now is performance hacks -- and throttling looks like the right answer here.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    7. Re:Five Things Everybody Needs To Know About Spam by Phroggy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1. Content filtering is not a solution.

      Yes and no. It's not the "right" solution, but when all other available solutions have been exhausted, content filtering is better than the alternative. You're absolutely correct that it eats up resources - you can't just enable content filtering and walk away; you have to constantly keep writing new rules that will no longer work next week.

      E-mail getting delayed 6 hours isn't strictly a problem with content filtering. Sure, if you eliminated content filtering, you'd probably also eliminate the 6 hour delay, but the right answer is fixing the system so that content filtering can be done without incurring a 6 hour delay. This is usually a problem of business management - the IT people want to fix the problem, but management doesn't want to pay for it, so the company loses bajillions of dollars (far more than the cost of the upgrades that IT wants) because of their unreliable e-mail service.

      I personally do not use Bayesian filtering on my mail servers. Because Bayesian filtering is most effective with user participation (users have to train the filter by identifying both spam and non-spam messages, the contents of which will vary between users), I think this technology is best left to e-mail clients, not servers. Spammers have been actively fighting against Bayesian filtering for some time now, by including legitimate-sounding text at the bottom of their spam, which confuses Bayesian analysis by making the spam appear more legitimate, and legitimate messages appear more spammy (which makes false positives more likely, which make people spend more time digging through their spam folder looking for false positives, which makes people more likely to see spam that has been filtered out).

      2. The Spam problem is mostly a law enforcement issue and not a technological issue.

      This is absolutely 100% correct. However, since I can't actually enforce the law myself, and the government isn't (to the extent of making any noticeable difference), I have to fight it as if it were a technological issue. I will confess to not doing my part in writing my Congresscritters; one of these days I will get around to that (despite the criticism, CAN-SPAM is a very good start, because it clearly defines nearly all current spam as being illegal, so now it's just an enforcement problem, which Congress is responsible for funding).

      3. Don't listen to the anti-virus/anti-spyware software companies.

      Hopefully most people don't view Norton Anti-Spam et al as anything more than a Band-Aid on top of the problem, but when solving the problem is beyond your control, a Band-Aid isn't a bad idea. Of course I would point out that Mozilla Thunderbird comes with a free Band-Aid that works just as well, but most people can't be pried away from Outlook, so they have to buy something.

      4. Most anti-spam methods do nothing to stop spam, except relay blacklisting.

      I certainly agree that IP blacklisting should be the first defense against spam, but the term "relay blacklisting" doesn't quite cover what I assume you're referring to. For the sake of clarity, let me explain:

      When an SMTP server accepts a message addressed to a local user on that system, the message will be delivered locally to that user's mailbox. However, if the server accepts a message addressed to someone else, the server will figure out where it's supposed to go, and attempt to send it there. This is called relaying. Normally, when you send a message from your e-mail client, you are sending it to a server (perhaps at your ISP) that will relay the message for you; this saves your e-mail client the trouble of having to deal with issues like figuring out where the destination server is and correctly dealing with situations like when the destination server is temporarily unavailable. Relay servers are good; they help make e-mail more reliable.

      Note that a relay server uses exactly the same SMTP protocol to relay your me

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  11. mail is broken by maynard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm shutting down our lab mail server and migrating a large userbase to central university mail services because of all the problems we're experiencing with supporting an internal mail server. Everything from excessive spam (and it's well over 90% of all incoming connections), people using email as for storing files (as if it were a home directory), and recent rulings demanding that IT offices track email and IMs.

    I worked out how much staff time we spend maintaining and supporting our mail server and was shocked. For a service that's commoditized and available for free from any number of vendors (never mind our uni's central IT service we're already paying for), and I worked out that last year we had spent ~100 hrs/yr of staff time. Looking back I realized that in years previous we had spent far less on a per year basis. IOW: staff consumption on mail service was growing while prices for commodity email service was plummeting (all the way down to near free).

    Dumping email support is the only rational solution.

    Where will this go? I think email (as in RFC822, etc) is doomed. The protocol is broken. It has no safeguards to confirm the legitimacy of the sender or recipient, no mechanism to secure the communication during transmission (like a real envelope), and as a result the protocol begs to be exploited by Internet fucktards. Which is exactly what's happening. Time to toss SMTP and start from scratch.

    1. Re:mail is broken by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Why bother handling mail yourself? Like you said, it's a cheap (free) commodity now, and the people running the big services are the experts. Running your own email these days is the equivalent of trying to generate your own power. Yeah, it's neat-o if you can do it yourself, but it's cheaper and easier to let the professionals handle it so that you can get along with doing whatever it is that you do.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    2. Re:mail is broken by maynard · · Score: 1

      I've been running large mail servers for a decade and a half. It's not about skill. The problem is that the protocol can't confirm the basics of what it means to safely communicate. One must confirm that the sender and recipient are who they say they are. One must confirm that the communication is private. One must finally confirm delivery and receipt of the message.

      SMTP does none of that.

    3. Re:mail is broken by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Uhm, if you are spending that much time on it, then you are doing something wrong. Well over 99% of email coming my way is spam, but it never enters the server - it simply gets rejected using RBLs, grey listing and other methods. The remaining little bit, is filtered very well by Spam Assassin and I only tune the server once a year around Christmas time.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    4. Re:mail is broken by maynard · · Score: 1

      Great solution for a personal mail server. But when you're responsible for systems that handle mail for VIPs like Nobel Prize winners and scientists regularly interviewed on television... things change.

    5. Re:mail is broken by thogard · · Score: 1

      X.400 can confirm who the senders are. Thats pointless for most spam today. Check out the messages who happen to have links to https sites and you will see that many spamers are happy to set up a real company and get a cert just to sucker a few more people. Its just a tiny cost of doing business that they are more than happy to pay for.

      I on the other hand am not happy to pay the thousands of dollars every year to run an x.400 like certificate chain and email system.

    6. Re:mail is broken by nuzak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > I think email (as in RFC822, etc) is doomed

      If you really demand a uniform end-to-end authentication mechanism, X.400 is over that-a-way.

      A full blown information war is being waged over email, and it's surviving quite nicely. I eagerly await your perfect solution that changes human nature itself. I tire of the pontifications of armchair architects.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    7. Re:mail is broken by soliptic · · Score: 1

      I would have to agree, email is pretty much dead in my eyes.

      I used to check my email several times a day - now I check it maybe once or twice a week. And with 500+ spam for every 1 or 2 legit emails, I barely know why I bother anyway. Sure, Thunderbird's Bayesian and whitelist filtering help somewhat, but it's too late - I'm past caring about email now anyway. I've moved on. Everyone who knows me, knows that they'll get a far faster response dropping me an IM, PM or SMS.

    8. Re:mail is broken by maynard · · Score: 1

      Yeah. The cert authorities are a real problem right now. X400 is a reasonable alternative.

      Some in this thread have argued that spammers will simply obtain proper certs and go their merry spamming way. However, I think that the formality of purchasing a cert means that records of the purchase would be available for subpoena. At that point, it's up to a state prosecutor of US Attorney to take the next step.

    9. Re:mail is broken by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      The protocol is broken. It has no safeguards to confirm the legitimacy of the sender or recipient, no mechanism to secure the communication during transmission (like a real envelope), and as a result the protocol begs to be exploited by Internet fucktards. Which is exactly what's happening. Time to toss SMTP and start from scratch.

      Why not use DomainKeys, SPF, and SMTP over TLS instead of trying to rebuild all of the existing infrastructure?

      Refusing connections from domains not using those technologies will get you a higher exchange rate than if you limit your incoming mail to NMP7 (New Magic Protocol #7) sessions.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    10. Re:mail is broken by thogard · · Score: 1

      Certs these days are trivial to get. The records for my cert aren't much better than what the domain name company has. All the cert says is that a company exists and its trivial to set up a untraceable company in most countries including all the ones where most of the spam comes from.

      Have you ever used a x.400 gateway? It is not a reasonable alternative to anything other an over weight budget. Isode was great compared to some of the other x.400 options and its the poorest bit of software I ever tried to patch.

    11. Re:mail is broken by tokul · · Score: 1

      I think email (as in RFC822, etc) is doomed. The protocol is broken.

      RFC822 (Standard for the format of ARPA Internet text messsages) does not define the way messages are transfered. rfc822 might be outdated, but we still have rfcs 2045-2048 and 2822.

      I think you are talking about rfc821 (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol).

    12. Re:mail is broken by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Where will this go? I think email (as in RFC822, etc) is doomed. The protocol is broken. It has no safeguards to confirm the legitimacy of the sender or recipient, no mechanism to secure the communication during transmission (like a real envelope), and as a result the protocol begs to be exploited by Internet fucktards. Which is exactly what's happening. Time to toss SMTP and start from scratch.
      Didn't some mail providers like AOL start rejecting mails from domains that didn't have SPF records?

      If we had a few more free mail providers like hotmail, gmail etc. doing that, we'd probably start seeing a widespread adoption of SPF which would confirm the legitimacy of the server sending mail.

      Unfortunately SPF isn't exactly a key for fighting spam. For a period of time I rejected mail to my mail account from domains that didn't have SPF records. The spammers would relay through legitimate providers like hotmail, gmail, yahoo (and I have people I communicate with on those providers), they would also use exploited servers that had SPF records -- It didn't really stop the spam.

      I have ended up using automatic whitelisting, which works well.

      There is a slight annoyance when I signup on certain websites, as I need to log into the web interface and check the whitelist queue folder, authorize&move the e-mail for that site.

      I still use SPF on my mail server, along with spamhaus's zen DNSBL and additionally aggressive verification (checks to see if the e-mail address exists by trying to relay a e-mail to it -- canceling at the last moment). I know some people are probably getting whitelist e-mails somewhere -- But I do think I have done my best to minimize the amount of useless traffic sent out by my server. I also don't bounce the original message with whitelist e-mails, just the headers.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    13. Re:mail is broken by maynard · · Score: 1

      Yeah. SPF is only one facet of a complete solution.

      The problem I have with all of these solutions is that they bandaid a protocol solution on top of SMTP that neither solves the SPAM problem, nor enforces the new standard across the board. So we still have massive SMTP abuse by spammers and other criminals.

      This is why I think a whole new protocol is the best solution. Simply dump SMTP and move everyone to a whole new standard. X400 would be fine by me, though it was never really designed with eithernet or IP as part of the network stack in mind. *shrug*

      As for Bayesian filtering solutions: they don't work. It's just a failed arms race. And my problem is that as the responsible party for a mailserver that handles critical business / academic communications, that I cannot afford the loss of even a single email. I have users who absolutely rely on email - except that email is now inherently unreliable.

      This is why I want to dump our email server. I see that spam and SMTP abuse has hit a threshold tipping point whereby it is now more expensive to maintain than the benefits it offers. Thus, while I have a whole community of users dependent on this broken protocol, better that someone else (bigger fish, with lawyers handy) deal with the whole mess.

    14. Re:mail is broken by maynard · · Score: 1

      Used, yes. Supported, no. So in all honesty, I do not have commercial experience with X400. I've read some docs and that's about it. *shrug* All I know is that SMTP is borked. It's costing my IT department a bunch more money than it offers in value. And boy, is email getting worse *fast*.

    15. Re:mail is broken by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Simply dump SMTP and move everyone to a whole new standard. X400 would be fine by me, though it was never really designed with eithernet or IP as part of the network stack in mind. *shrug*
      I fail to see how X400 prevents spam.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    16. Re:mail is broken by Sorthum · · Score: 1

      Using SMTP callbacks is abusive, given that most of the headers in an email are forged...

    17. Re:mail is broken by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Using SMTP callbacks is abusive, given that most of the headers in an email are forged...
      Results are cached at least.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    18. Re:mail is broken by Sorthum · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter. If a spammer pulls a joe-job and sends out 100K messages with my email address as the forged sender, then I get idiots like you doing the callback thing. I block such sites at the firewall as soon as I see 'em.

    19. Re:mail is broken by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      If a spammer pulls a joe-job and sends out 100K messages with my email address as the forged sender, then I get idiots like you doing the callback thing. I block such sites at the firewall as soon as I see 'em.
      Generally I'm not too worried about that happening from domains that don't even have SPF records.

      Blocking my connections just reinforce that e-mails from your domain won't be delivered to mine -- Since I don't even know who you are or why that's a bad thing for me, I see no problem with this.
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    20. Re:mail is broken by Sorthum · · Score: 1

      Oh? In real life I assure you "my" domain has SPF records, and ~60K users. My private domain is in a state of flux, and will have one shortly once DNS stabilizes.

      I'm also not the only one who feels this way. SMTP callbacks ARE abusive, and they can and do take servers offline

  12. Blue Frog by crapjunk123 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I really miss my Blue Frog. Just a promising little pet that never had a chance. Maybe Okopipi will make an appearance someday.

  13. Uhh... you can have both... by JimDaGeek · · Score: 4, Funny

    remember, Bill Gates said he would end spam. As a "trusting" MS user, I believe him. So, since spam has ended, I don't know what these "systems" guys are complaining about. Geeez.

    --
    General, you are listening to a machine! Do the world a favor and don't act like one.
    1. Re:Uhh... you can have both... by Jonny+do+good · · Score: 2, Funny

      remember, Bill Gates said he would end spam. As a "trusting" MS user, I believe him. So, since spam has ended, I don't know what these "systems" guys are complaining about. Geeez.

      And I am going to ditch my firewall as soon as I get Vista because Bill says it will be a secure OS.

    2. Re:Uhh... you can have both... by JimDaGeek · · Score: 1

      It was supposed to be a joke... A bad one :-)

      --
      General, you are listening to a machine! Do the world a favor and don't act like one.
    3. Re:Uhh... you can have both... by Jonny+do+good · · Score: 1

      I thought yours was funny... I was just trying to keep the joke going... poorly :-(

  14. I think the most important thing is.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    ..make sure it is clear to your boss that they might lose some legitimate email with porn because of spam filters.

  15. there is a silver bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    There is, or rather are silver bullets, for end-user organisations who can afford to pay for it, anyway. Actually there are several, requiring various degrees of clue at the end-user's end, and the less clue you have, the more you have to pay to make the problem go away. This thread will be full of SpamAssassin and Exim recipes that can be made to work "free", but for Joe IT director of WidgetCo there may not be budget to buy that amount of clue - or they may not know that they can do; and if they have it already, they've already paid for substantial clue. (go on, admit it, if you're one of those posters with recipes, you have your CVS and authentication and firewalls and home directories and print servers just as sussed, don't you?) The stuff you can pay for ranges from, well er, from *this* to /that/... go read the ads, you'll see where those limits lie. They all work, for various values of work, with varying requirements for input of clue, cash, button clicking and typing.

    Sadly, I work for a commercial enterprise operating at a particular point along that spectrum of silver bullets. I say 'sadly', because we're terribly ethical and don't like employees embarrassing us by astroturfing, and that means I can't tell you what I think the silver bullets are...

  16. Silver Ricochet.. by tempest69 · · Score: 1
    You have a nice start, but it has some weird consequences.

    1. Sending email gets infuriating as your machine slows to a crawl anytime someone hasnt whitelisted you.

    2. Maintaining a Taint Free Whitelist gets to be a bit tricky.

    3. How is this going to work for services like Gmail and Yahoo? A minute of chug time on a machine is expensive if your offering it for free. If you whitelist them it doesnt do much good because then spammers just use those accounts

    4. How does this work for people in poor areas of the world using some antique machine (like a Pentium 200 mmx) where email would take 30 minutes a peice to send. Counter Proposal--- 0) No white list, however a digital signature (spam score/service type) from trusted trackers (like spamhouse, etc). 1) A proposed challenge is sent for (CLASS1 Trusted) 2) The client will either accept or decline the challenge to drop to the next level (CLASS2 Trusted) which would be a lighter challenge, but sorted accordingly. 3) After negotiating the terms of transmittal then the problem would be solved, and tagged appropriatly. With standard sendmail at the very bottom.. _________ some of the kickers... The spam score is a monster again.. as you need to have both a "start date" and a "most recent date" to classify the longevity of the account, and that it hasnt been used for spam lately. As well as having a "Diversity" score that keeps spammers from farming accounts for later use. The spam score keeps people from having to endure the longer wait. It also allows for the free-email systems to track individual accounts without so much work.

    As far as the challenge goes I would go with an AES key that needs the last X digits solved.. But hash collision seems fine to me.

    It is still a pretty weak solution for the people with low computer power..

    Storm

    1. Re:Silver Ricochet.. by IkeTo · · Score: 1

      > you have a nice start, but it has some weird consequences.

      > 1. Sending email gets infuriating as your machine slows to a crawl anytime
      > someone hasnt whitelisted you.

      This really does not need to be slow. There are many "trapdoor functions" for you to build your challenge response. Given the answer (that you pick randomly) you can easily generate the question (and therefore can easily check whether it really answer the question), but given the question it takes an arbitrarily long time to compute the answer. The server only need to run the "fast" routes, but the client need to run the "slow" route.

      > 2. Maintaining a Taint Free Whitelist gets to be a bit tricky.

      Most people only have so many people contacting him, so building a white-list is not as horrible as it sounds. Not to say that this is particularly interesting for support staff of companies, though, who constantly need to respond to emails from complete strangers. And you can build software that if a challenge-response is answered correctly, and, after reading the mail, you do not click on the delete button before you do other actions (e.g., to archive it or to place it into some folder), the sender is added to the white-list automatically.

      > 3. How is this going to work for services like Gmail and Yahoo? A minute of
      > chug time on a machine is expensive if your offering it for free. If you
      > whitelist them it doesnt do much good because then spammers just use those
      > accounts

      That's for Gmail and Yahoo to think about. If the market is full of solutions that have negligible spam problem, they will be creative to think about solutions that they can adopt as well. The current problem is that the whole market is filled with solutions that has "features" (like unauthenticated and deniability) that some people somehow like while at the same time encourage spam.

      > 4. How does this work for people in poor areas of the world using some antique
      > machine (like a Pentium 200 mmx) where email would take 30 minutes a peice to
      > send.

      Hm... if you mean that those computers need that amount of time to just send e-mails, then those systems are not usable today already, no need to cater for them. If you mean that those computers need that amount of time to answer a challenge-response, then the answer is simple: just have that person to talk to the one he want to contact in some other means, like a phone call, so that the address is put into a white-list.

      Now my take for adding one more question:

      5. This doesn't solve the problem when your friend's mail account is broken (by virus or trojan horse), and subverted into a spam sending center.

    2. Re:Silver Ricochet.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> 2. Maintaining a Taint Free Whitelist gets to be a bit tricky.

      > Most people only have so many people contacting him, so building a white-list is not as horrible as it sounds.

      [snip]

      > Now my take for adding one more question:

      > 5. This doesn't solve the problem when your friend's mail account is broken (by virus or trojan horse), and subverted into a spam sending center.

      As you note above, most people would have a small white-list, so could only spam a few friends when taken over by windows' maladies. And those recipients would temporarily remove the zombie from the white-list and help the friend recover.

  17. This is not a car analogy by Looce · · Score: 0

    You can't have a car that uses power, doesn't mess with the grid and uses no fossil fuel at once. You gotta have one, or the other, or a mix of both. You see, it's all a big tradeoff.

    P.-S.: see this article.

  18. Question by 955301 · · Score: 1

    Here's a stupid question? If 99% of email is spam now, why don't we all just switch to a protocol and servers that authenticate and force identities based on a distributed trusted service? Sounds like there is so much to gain by jumping off the SMTP ship.

    --
    You are checking your backups, aren't you?
    1. Re:Question by OriginalArlen · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Your post advocates a

      (X) technical ( ) legislative ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante

      approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.)

      ( ) Spammers can easily use it to harvest email addresses
      ( ) Mailing lists and other legitimate email uses would be affected
      ( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
      ( ) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
      ( ) It will stop spam for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
      (X) Users of email will not put up with it
      (X) Microsoft will not put up with it
      (X) The police will not put up with it
      (X) Requires too much cooperation from spammers
      (X) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
      (X) Many email users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
      ( ) Spammers don't care about invalid addresses in their lists
      ( ) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career or business

      Specifically, your plan fails to account for

      ( ) Laws expressly prohibiting it
      (X) Lack of centrally controlling authority for email
      (X) Open relays in foreign countries
      ( ) Ease of searching tiny alphanumeric address space of all email addresses
      (X) Asshats
      (X) Jurisdictional problems
      ( ) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
      ( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
      (X) Huge existing software investment in SMTP
      ( ) Susceptibility of protocols other than SMTP to attack
      ( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
      ( ) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
      (X) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
      ( ) Extreme profitability of spam
      ( ) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
      (X) Technically illiterate politicians
      (X) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who do business with spammers
      ( ) Dishonesty on the part of spammers themselves
      ( ) Bandwidth costs that are unaffected by client filtering
      (X) Outlook

      and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

      (X) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
      been shown practical
      ( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
      ( ) SMTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
      ( ) Blacklists suck
      ( ) Whitelists suck
      ( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
      ( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
      ( ) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
      ( ) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
      (X) Sending email should be free
      ( ) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
      ( ) Incompatiblity with open source or open source licenses
      ( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
      ( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
      ( ) I don't want the government reading my email
      ( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

      Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

      (X) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
      ( ) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
      ( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your
      house down!

      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    2. Re:Question by ChameleonDave · · Score: 1

      Yes, those difficulties exist. But they are only hurdles to be cleared. The current protocols are obsolete.

    3. Re:Question by thogard · · Score: 1

      Because then Joe Spammer will change his clients an extra $500 and go out and register a company and get a cert for that company before sending out billions of authenticated messages.

    4. Re:Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your post advocates a

      (X) technical ( ) legislative ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante

      approach to fighting spam. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work...
      Thank god! For a moment there, I thought we were going to have a slashdot discussion about spam without this comment. Wouldn't that open a rift in the space-time continuum or something?
    5. Re:Question by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      The current protocols are obsolete.
      Feel free to write up a RFC of a new protocol that can prevent spam and get back to us. :)
      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    6. Re:Question by undercanopy · · Score: 1

      great! how long do you think it would take people to code "ban this certificate" buttons that tie into the smtp server? Then it doesn't matter what the content is or where they send it from, if the email authenticated with that cert, it's rejected.

      That's a single point of spammy identification. They'd have to buy lots of certs, which means that either spamming then becomes very (too?) expensive for either a) them or b) their customers.

      --
      -- D-23994, Muff#2613
  19. No, the boss can have both... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You just have to explain the costs involved. By my estimates, if you paid someone to be an email secretary, they could accurately filter 3 to 4 persons emails a day. So, for only the cost of one more employee, the boss can his cake and eat it too.

    Always remember that when the boss starts making outrageous demands, you can placate him by simply explaining how you can actually, well, placate him. The only obstacle, ever, is money. Ok, maybe money can't cure cancer, but it can certainly cure *this* issue.

  20. It's all doom and gloom, eh? by grasshoppa · · Score: 0

    A variety of comments posted already spout doom and gloom regarding email systems. When the truth of the matter is this; Spam is not that big of a deal if you use the proper techniques. I work for a small town city government, about 200 employees with mailboxes. Using about 4 different techniques ( from connection dropping based on connection metrics to content filtering of the actual message to tarpitting connections based on characteristics ), most of my female co-workers never see spam in their inbox, despite their damnedest attempts. Other admins will know what I'm talking about.

    These five steps are good for your upper managers to know, but let's face it; They won't read that and understand it. Instead, use colorful graphs to highlight the work you have done to stop the spam, highlighting why certain online behavior is bad.

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    1. Re:It's all doom and gloom, eh? by realmolo · · Score: 2, Informative

      "...about 200 employees with mailboxes."

      That is such a small number of users, that you anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

      You don't get spam because you don't have many users sending mail, your users are in a controlled corporate environment that (probably) keeps their machines virus/trojan/spyware free, your users probably are somewhat careful to only use their "work e-mail" for "work-related" stuff, and you have a domain that isn't very widely-known.

      Try running an ISP with hundreds of thousands of users, a large percentage of which have viruses on their machines, and with a domain name that is a target of spammers (because you have so many users).

      200 users is NOTHING. Until you are processing hundreds-of-thousands of messages per hour, you don't know how difficult it is to stop spam.

    2. Re:It's all doom and gloom, eh? by Mr.+Roadkill · · Score: 1

      200 users is NOTHING. Until you are processing hundreds-of-thousands of messages per hour, you don't know how difficult it is to stop spam.
      You want to know the really scary thing?

      Both you and grasshoppa are right... for the subsets of the spam problem that you have to address.

      My credentials? I run the mailfilters at a university with +50k student addresses, and around 3000 staff addresses. We typically reject a couple of hundred thousand messages daily. So, while our situation would probably turn grasshoppa's hair grey, it's a drop in the bucket compared to yours.

      Spam is reasonably surmountable provided you have enough resources to throw at it. However, sometimes that doesn't scale too well

      For example, I have two external relays load-balanced and ticking away running a whole lot of RBL checks, SpamAssassin checks and even using the Sane Security add-on signatures for CLAM while they do the regular virus scans. They presently have a whole lot of headroom, and if that ever diminished I could probably get a few thousand dollars for another box to share the load without too many questions given how well our solution works for us and how little it is costing otherwise. I imagine grasshoppa would have similar success with his or her solution. If you're talking hundreds of thosands of messages per hour, scaling my approach out to process that kind of message volume on a corporate budget dictated by the returns your bosses require could be interesting to say the least.

      I'd add another item to the list, which some might see as a part of "No Magic Bullet", but I see it as sufficiently important to warrant its own entry - "There is no one-size-fits-all solution" . What works well-enough for you or me or grasshoppa will probably work well enough for similiarly sized organisations with similar resources and similar threats and similar values of "work well enough" - change any of that, though, and it's a whole new problem. The spammers are probably laughing their arses off over the kind of kind of religious wars people have over whose spamfiltering solution is best (it's mine, by the way, but then I also use vi to edit my conf files so of course it would be). And diversity of solutions is probably a good thing, as it means the spammers need to work harder to get past a whole lot of different approaches to get their garbage out.

  21. Spam fighting can be a source of income! by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 1

    From my read on the anti-spam laws, the company would be an ISP for the employees. Given that, the company can sue the spammers that use deceptive headers and subject lines in their e-mails. Under California law, a recipient or ISP can get $1,000 per illegal e-mail.

    When it starts costing spammers more money than they make, they will stop. In my experience, asking spammers to stop nicely does not work. Filing a lawsuit usually is the only way to get them to stop. I have one spammer that still spams after getting 6 figures yanked from their payment processing account. This time, I am asking for 7 figures in punitive damages.

    1. Re:Spam fighting can be a source of income! by Yottabyte84 · · Score: 1

      (You) CAN-SPAM nullified state laws on the matter. Only ISPs can sue now, not individual recipiants.

    2. Re:Spam fighting can be a source of income! by jmac1492 · · Score: 1

      the company would be an ISP for the employees. Given that, the company can sue the spammers that use deceptive headers and subject lines in their e-mails.
      So if the company is an ISP for their employees... wait for it... that means they can sue the spammers.

      --
      Jenny's got a new number! 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    3. Re:Spam fighting can be a source of income! by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 1

      CAN-SPAM nullified state laws on the matter.
      Sort of. CAN-SPAM includes explicit language that carves out an exception
      to the nullification --- that state laws that prohibit falsity and deception
      can still survice.

      Despite the 4th circuit opinion, I have a court that ruled that California law (17529.5) is not preempted by CAN-SPAM.

  22. So, don't use verizon.com, etc.? by imagerodeo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If CIOs instituted a policy of disqualifying any vendor of Internet, data or communication services that appears anywhere on Spamhaus's top 10 list from doing any business with the company, Varshavchik feels, "the spam problem will pretty much disappear, mostly overnight."

    That list (http://www.spamhaus.org/statistics/networks.lasso ) has verizon.com, att.net, serverflo.com, xo.com in spots 1, 2, 3, 4. Should CIO's stop using Verizon, ATT and XO until they clean up their act?

    1. Re:So, don't use verizon.com, etc.? by LauraW · · Score: 2, Informative

      Should CIO's stop using Verizon, ATT and XO until they clean up their act?

      Yes

  23. "Congress shall make no law..." by digitig · · Score: 1

    It's amazing how quickly Slashdotters switch from quoting the Bill of Rights in order to defend freedom of speech that they want to ignoring the Bill of Rights in order to to condemn freedom of speech that they don't want. It's no wonder American lawyers earn so much!

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    1. Re:"Congress shall make no law..." by thogard · · Score: 1

      Freedom of speech doesn't mean I have to put up with someone in my face 24x7.

      It is illegal to push prescription drugs on children yet not a single DA has bused a spamer for drug pushing.

    2. Re:"Congress shall make no law..." by digitig · · Score: 1

      You don't have to. You can turn off your computer just as easily as you can turn off your TV and radio.

      Please note that I don't think that the freedom of speech argument is any justification for allowing spam to continue. I just don't happen to think it's an argument for most of the other things it's brought out in defence of, either (and I write as a member of Liberty, an approximate UK parallel to the ACLU, so don't read me as being pro-censorship, either!)

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    3. Re:"Congress shall make no law..." by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      It's amazing how quickly Slashdotters switch from quoting the Bill of Rights in order to defend freedom of speech that they want to ignoring the Bill of Rights in order to to condemn freedom of speech that they don't want. It's no wonder American lawyers earn so much! Commercial speech isn't protected the same way that non-commercial speech is. For example, advertisers are not legally allowed to lie about their products in television commercials, but I am legally allowed to lie about those same products all I want (as long as I'm not committing slander or libel). For example, without supporting evidence, I'm not allowed to say that drinking Coca-Cola causes cancer, but I am allowed to say that drinking Coca-Cola raises your IQ. The Coca-Cola Company is not allowed to say that.

      But fraud is a form of speech that isn't protected at all. Fraud is illegal, and should be. Manipulating the stock market is also illegal, and should be. Those two categories of speech are not protected by the First Amendment, so if we could eliminate all spam in those categories, there's no First Amendment problem. And once you've eliminated all spam in those categories... really, what's left? Whatever it is, I'm sure we could find a good way to deal with it.
      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    4. Re:"Congress shall make no law..." by digitig · · Score: 1

      But surely that's a legal interpretation? AFAICS it's not inherent in the bill of rights itself, and so it presumably doesn't have the same force?

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    5. Re:"Congress shall make no law..." by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      But surely that's a legal interpretation? AFAICS it's not inherent in the bill of rights itself, and so it presumably doesn't have the same force? Yes, it is interpretation, but my understanding is that this is how the Supreme Court has interpreted the First Amendment. Until the Supreme Court reinterprets the law in a different way (which isn't likely), their interpretation has the full force of law.
      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  24. Author spams list... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The author responded to criticism that the article was spammed to the qmail list. From the comments section of the article:

    First: I'd asked for input for this article on the qmail list. I received several replies from people who answered my question, "what ONE thing do you wish your CIO
    understood about this subject?" So, at a minimum, my message was written to let people know that the project was complete and that their contributions mattered. (Not to mention
    that a few of your online friends might have been quoted.) This is called "good manners."
    Okay, sounds reasonable.

    Also, I don't see that the article was irrelevant. It was meant, from the first, to be a document that explained the techie's side of the issue to a manager. If your CIO doesn't need to be told these things, then I'm very happy for you -- but I've already gotten several responses from sysadmins saying that a copy was sent to the boss' office. For many
    readers, having the boss understand the situation _does_ help an email admin deal with the problem (i.e. the problem of ignorant-about-this management), so I think it's relevant indeed.
    The author is basically saying the article is relevant unto itself rather than explaining how it is relevant to the qmail list.

    Third, I'm rather irritated when I see people use the word "spam" to mean "I'm not interested in this." You could argue that my message was off-topic. (I would disagree, but I'd accept the viewpoint.) However, spam is defined as unsolicited commercial e-mail. A link to an online
    article is not commercial, especially if there's nothing at that site for you to buy.
    The author's reasoning is simply disingenuous. You can buy a subscription at CIO.com. There are also advertising links which (ostensibly) generate money for CIO.com. There was commercial value to the author in mailing the article out to the list.

    Logically, because there was commercial value and because she admits that it could be argued the message was off-topic she must also admit that it could be argued the mesage was spam. Her response does much to convince she was motivated by commercial reasons.

    Regardless, the two questions I have are: Does intention matter in determining whether something is spam? Does value (her article certainly has some value) matter in determining whether something is spam? I'm leaning towards "no" on both counts. Intentions ultimately cannot be known, so we can hardly use them as any kind of metric. Value-added emails are nice, but if the primary purpose is the value then the spam-like aspects can simply be removed (e.g. just share the article text, not a link). If we identify value-added emails as not spam, spam will simply include relevant or valuable information to mask its spaminess.

  25. What I know about spam fighting by Triv · · Score: 1

    It hurts more if you leave it in the can.



    Triv

  26. Heres a way to end spam. Completly. by El_Oscuro · · Score: 1
    One key is to understand how spammers work.
    1. A spammer sets up a "bot-net" of compromised Windows computers, sometimes in the thousands.
    2. The spammer configures the zombies to send out about 1,000 spams a day, which most computers can handle without the user noticing.
    3. By using thousands of zombies, a spammer can send out millions of viagras a day, at almost no cost to himself.
    4. If 99.9% of the spam is filtered or ignored, it doesn't matter to the spammer, as the .1% represents thousands of sales per day.

    The trick is to target the one vulnerability all spammers have: A website to sell their goods. All spam messages have a link where you click to buy the viagra, invest in Nigerian hedge funds, etc.

    This vulnerability could be renlentessly attacked by ISPs, where each filtered spam generates an automatic "opt out" message to the website contained in the email. Kind of like bluefrog, with attitude. The beauty of it is, unlike bluefrog, there is no single point the spammers can attack, since individual ISPs would be generating the opt out requests instead of a single website.

    Right now, a spammer only has to process the requests from the spam that actually gets through and is responded to. If this is implemented, the spammer would have to process (or ignore) every spam sent out by one of his zombies. Kind of a Self-Denial of Service attack.

    When you have to process 18,000 requests a day, your hardware and bandwidth costs are minimal. If you had to process all 18,000,000 your zombies sent out, your costs would be considerably higher, and it might make spamming somewhat less profitable.

    --
    "Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
  27. 200 meg email by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 1

    A 200 meg attachment is nothing! A good 10 years ago, a client asked us if we could provide data in a database format similar to one she was using for another project. Boss asked for a sample. The next morning, I noticed the partition with the mail spool directory kept filling up, emptying, filling up, emptying. Finally figured out it was because someone was trying to send a message with a monster attachment. Moved the spool to a bigger partition. It kept growing and growing and growing and growing. Eventually, the entire 430 meg file came through and was delivered. It took a heck of a long time over our 128k ISDN connection. :)

    I was kinda proud that the mail server I'd built from spare parts was able to handle it (once it had enough room to store the file).

  28. Bosses should know nothing about spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should leave it to the techs. That's what they pay them for.

  29. 1 Thing the Boss should know about Spam by Qbertino · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Enforce one standard of encryption internal, for all employees and all clients that want to do email communication with the company. Bounce all messages that aren't encrypted.
    Voila!
    All Spam problems solved instantly.

    Neat side effect: Your emails are safe and contract proof.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:1 Thing the Boss should know about Spam by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Other neat side effect: You now have 3 clients instead of 300.

      I would say use PGP internally and enforce it, and include it in your spam rules. That way, clients who send encrypted/signed messages can be sure they get through, but clients are not required to use encryption.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  30. Re:Heres a way to end spam. Completly. by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >The trick is to target the one vulnerability all spammers have: A website to sell their goods.

    Not any more. The stock scammers can get their money without any contact information whatever in the spam.

  31. Re:Heres a way to end spam. Completly. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Problem: What happens if the spammers discover you doing this, and send new spam with a link to your website?

    Even if people do it manually, this is going to sting legitimate people who have nothing to do with the spam.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  32. RBL-based systems do *not* lose mail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RBL-based systems do lose mail. A potential customer emails me and a competitor with a request for a quotation. From me they get a blacklist notification...

    Incorrect - email generated by legitimate users is injected via the ISP's mail relay, which is not on the RBL.

    1. Re:RBL-based systems do *not* lose mail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      email generated by legitimate users is injected via the ISP's mail relay, which is not on the RBL.

      Ah, here is the heart of the problem. You are trusting your RBL to not list legitimate mail sources. SPEWS, for example, will include legitimate mail sources on their list. (goodguy and evilguy both have IP addresses provided by bigbuy. SPEWS blocks goodguy for being in the same IP block as evilguy so goodguy will complain to bigguy and disconnect evilguy.) You can argue if you think that is a good idea or not, but sometimes legitimate mail gets lost in the process.

      Less aggressive RBLs make mistakes. I'm not saying RBLs aren't useful, but I don't know how you can call them perfect.

      Every spam filtering/blocking method will let through some spam and will block some legitimate mail. Getting back to the original article, the last thing I want to tell the CIO is that we should never lose an email. I'd rather say we don't want to lose more than x% of emails nor accept more than y% of spams, where x and y are both small numbers. Then we can talk about how to use RBLs and filters and whitelists to achieve those levels.

  33. Re:Heres a way to end spam. Completly. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    One key is to understand how spammers work.
    The trick is to target the one vulnerability all spammers have: A website to sell their goods.

    Here is the part you're missing.

    There is no longer a direct connection between the entity sending spam and the company selling stuff:
    1. 1 A company gets suckered into thinking spamming might help them make money.
    2. 2 A spamming service takes their money and laughs because it doesn't matter if the company makes money.
    3. 3 A botnet provider contracts with the spamming service to send X million spams.
    A new set of sucker companies are born everyday, the company that went broke yesterday isn't running around warning new companies to avoid spamming lest they, too, go out of business and even if they did the new company wouldn't believe them anyway.

    Money is made, and therefore spam will continue, regardless of whether any given company profits from any given spam campaign.
    --
    Ann (people call me Nan) E. Mouse
  34. a possible solution of the spam problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Allow all Spam at once so that all mail traffic (except Spam) comes to a grinding halt.
    The resulting shock will create enough mass-consciousness of the problem that it will be taken care of on a world-political scale.

  35. Well for one thing ... by IchBinEinPenguin · · Score: 1

    ... email is not delivered by trucks driving through tubes.

  36. Don't Forget that Most Spam Comes from Bots by jdgsbri · · Score: 1

    One key area to consider is the root source of spam. Most spam comes from bot infected computers that circumvent inbound and outbound anti-spam techniques. The root solution is to remove the spam generating malware from infected computers. Although a long-run approach, spam malware cleanup is probably the only true way to reduce the world-wide volume of spam. Act locally, think globally.

  37. Strawman fallacy by gvc · · Score: 1
    Where's the evidence that RBLs provide lower false positive and/or false negative rates than content filtering? Just because you think it's so doesn't make it so. Or that filtering introduces 5 hour delays? etc.

    The above rant is just a string of strawman arguments without an iota of evidence. It ascribes to filters disadvantages which do not exist, and to RBLs fantastic properties that also don't exist.

    Maybe RBLs are useful in the fight against spam -- maybe not. To suggest that they obviate content filtering is preposterous.

    Mod parent down.

    1. Re:Strawman fallacy by mabu · · Score: 1

      I suspect you work in an area where you need spam to exist to maintain your job security or you wouldn't be asking that question. Either that or you have minimal experience with this technology and field.

      The bottom line is that it takes an ongoing effort to update both RBLs and content-based filter. The main difference is, there is a FINITE amount of IP space, so the RBL war is worth winning. There is an INFINITE number of combinations of keywords and imagery that can be forged as spam. Common sense indicates one approach has a chance of success, and the other is a hamster wheel. And of course, I can go into great details about my own ongoing experience in this area which covers 12 years of internet mail system service.

      To add to this, the irony is that most content-based filtering relies on IP based blacklisting to achieve an even remotely reliable score.

    2. Re:Strawman fallacy by gvc · · Score: 1

      CEAS (www.ceas.cc) will be running a live spam filter test Aug 2-3.

      I invite you, or anybody else who wishes to prove that (a) content filtering is hopeless and/or (b) RBLs are a slam-dunk, to demonstrate your superiority by participating in this test.

      Guidelines will be posted shortly.

      For further information email information@ceas.cc

  38. The list . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Since the article is spread over three pages with ads, here is the list:

    1. Lose No Mail.
    2. There's No Silver Bullet.
    3. It's a Continuous Battle. Budget Accordingly.
    4. Understand the Basics of E-mail Technology.
    5. People are Making Money on Spam. Respond Appropriately.

    #4 is pretty funny: Boss? Understand basic technology? Buahahahahaha! That's a good one.

  39. We almost have a Silver bullet by jidar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We spent most of 2006 looking for the best possible solution to our spam problems and had many meetings and spoke with many 3rd parties. At the end of that discovery, despite my strong distaste for it, we outsourced. I hate taking on additional periodic expenses, but in this case it just made too much sense. The spamassassin solution we had been working on constantly was costing us too much in manpower for not very good results.

    We used an outfit called Red Condor. They offered external filtering by setting the MX to systems on their network, plus in-house filtering by way of an appliance that you can purchase and deploy. They allowed us a 60 day trial, which went extremely well. The bottom line is this, we now pay about ~$11k a year for ~10k mailboxes and get filtering every bit as good as what you get from the major email players like Gmail or Hotmail. The only downside is there are occasionally delays of up to 15 minutes. Hence it is almost, but not quite a Silver Bullet. These are issues that I expect can be somewhat resolved by purchase of additional appliances and load balancing.

    This sounds like an ad, but I have no affiliation with Red Condor beyond being a customer. Spam and it's associated problems made 2006 the worst year of my 10+ year career and probably had contributed to more sleep deprived nights than any other thing for me. If you're like me and looking for a solution to what has become an epidemic, this is could be it.

    --
    Sigs are awesome huh?
  40. Everyong saying Content filtering doesnt work? BS by jidar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To all of you people in here saying content filtering doesn't work:

    How can you say that knowing that Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail and AOL all do extremely effective content filtering? They aren't perfect but they're very very good with a low false positive rate.

    --
    Sigs are awesome huh?
  41. I haven't seen a single spam in years... literally by hacker · · Score: 1

    "This is a risk management practice, and you need to decide where you want to put your risk. Would you rather risk getting spam with lower risk of losing/delaying messages you actually wanted to get, or would you rather risk losing/delaying legitimate messages with lower risk of spam? You can't have both, no matter how loudly you scream."

    Yes you can, its called dspam, and it works beautifully.

    I, and none of my users, have seen an single spam email in over 3 years. I added graymilter and Project Zen from Spamhaus very recently, and its helped even more.

    Sure, there are false positives that get caught and quarantined, but dspam has a nice webui that let's me retrain them and forward them on to my mailbox. The users have the same web interface and can manage their own false-positives in the same way. They can set it to catch more, or catch less with a few clicks in the interface. Some of my users love HTML email from online stores, and some do not. Everyone can tweak and train the heuristics for their own mail, however they wish.

    I have no problem now making any of my email addresses visible on the Internet, on forums, wikis, mailing lists or webpages, because I simply do not get spam, so its not a problem anymore.

  42. Re:I haven't seen a single spam in years... litera by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

    No, you're not getting both. You're just going for the risk of seeing something late, rather than the risk of losing something legitimate. Obviously, a quarantine means that you won't see the false positive until you specifically go check, but you won't lose it, unless you don't check for it before the quarantine's auto-delete timeout. Graylisting, by definition, introduces a delay in mail transmission.

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  43. Re:I haven't seen a single spam in years... litera by hacker · · Score: 1

    Obviously, a quarantine means that you won't see the false positive until you specifically go check, but you won't lose it, unless you don't check for it before the quarantine's auto-delete timeout.

    There is no auto-delete timeout for the quarantine, not by default, and not that I can manually set without futzing in the code itself. I'm thankful for that, and so are my users.

    Graylisting, by definition, introduces a delay in mail transmission.

    A delay of 25 minutes is barely perceptable. Email is not IM, even though people assume the two to be interchangeable. They're not.

    Besides, you could also use nolisting instead, if you so choose. I prefer to receive ALL of my mail, not potentially lose it without even knowing about it.

  44. alan ralsky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interesting how Alan Ralsky's name pops up in weird places. Know someone who knows a woman who had a long term affair with Ralsky in the mid 80s to early 90s. She ended up having to do jail time in the UP of Michigan along with him due to one of his schemes. Hell of guy he is. This was verifiable via newspaper articles and court records. The Mrs. must be incredibly greedy or she would have thrown his cheating ass out long ago. More than likely he uses her to try to protect assets.

  45. Another way to hurt spammers - Tarpits by InvisiBill · · Score: 1

    This was posted here previously, but it's a great idea. Annoying spammers with pf and spamd

    I don't like getting spam. The problem is not detecting it automatically, that works very well with tools like SpamAssassin and bmf. Even though I can automatically delete spam without reading it, the spammers still successfully deliver their mails and get paid by volume. I want to hurt them. They should not be able to deliver their mails, and waste as much of their resources as possible attempting to do so.

    ...

    Now I'm building my own blacklist, based on the evidence I've seen myself, classified by my own spam detector configuration. The only politics involved in someone getting blacklisted are my own, I don't have to trust a third party to make fair decisions. And I use this blacklist to redirect hosts to the tarpit, using pf and some cronjobs:

    The biggest problem is that it requires some OpenBSD knowledge. It'd be great if we could get a nice idiot-proof install ISO for a drop-in box.

  46. Re:Heres a way to end spam. Completly. by sjames · · Score: 1

    If the SEC REALLY wants to enforce the law, all they need is a single email account to collect a bazillion pump and dump operations. It shouldn't be that hard to come up with a good list of suspects by watching what stocks get pumped, and then see who dumps. That alone could get rid of about 25% of the spam.