That is only one way to have your voice heard. When the printing press first became available, it too was a controlled resource, but that didn't stop people from still using the written word or their voice in the public square. The US's declaration of independence did not depend on the printing press, even though by then it was readily available.
are you aware that you are showing 1410 as a reference, and justifying the LACK of freedom in today, by that date.
excuse me, but you are referencing fucking high middle ages in which feudal barons and lords ruled the land, and catholic church was still in power. (renaissance was just starting).
so, you are basically saying that, we have as much freedom as high middle ages, AND THIS IS NORMAL.
Now, don't get me wrong, having a few corporations able to control everything is a problem. But, what is the alternative? Having the government control access to everything? Even more of a concern, however, and this is what I believe gave Wikileaks its real power, is having just a few individuals/corporations owning most of the media outlets in the world.
the alternative is limiting any group, person, entity can grow in size.
the only reason such a max limit does not exist, is that the pioneers of economics in 18th century, were not able to foresee that small partnerships and businesses like 'huntington & bradley' could grow up to a size that would dwarf kingdoms.
because those pioneers was not able to foresee a threat to freedoms from small businesses growing as big as british empire, they thought that if there was equality in politics, and everyone free to engage in business, all would be well.
it didnt. in the size of 15 top economic entities of the world, there are at least 5 major corporations, over countries.
you are TOLD you have freedom. you need MONEY to exercise that freedom. as long as you dont have the money to exercise that freedom, it means YOU DONT HAVE THAT FREEDOM.
and idiots like you can lay about, fooling themselves how they have 'freedom' (until they attempt to use it and see they cant) and talk about 'crying, whining, this, that, blabber and bullshit'.
the only difference in between medieval times and now, is that you are now supposedly allowed to be a baron. how many barons are there ?
it is just a different form of oppression. you are given the freedom to do anything in lip service (politically) but, you need heaps of cash to actually practice those freedoms.
He is MY douchebag. He is the way i would want any douchebag to be like. I would share a flat with such a douchebag, at any given point.
As far as douchebags go, there were a lot of douchebags among the people who have pioneered this age of democracy that the power elite has made null and void.
Benjamin franklin used to strip naked and sit on a chair in the middle of a long corridor in his mansion, after opening the windows from both sides and ensuring that the corridor had good breeze.
Thomas paine was SO aggressive in his crusade against religion that, he set up a church of reason, and started a new religion.
i can go on and on.
in the list that can be made out of quirkiness, oddness, douchebagness of those people who now we see as pioneers of freedom or fighters of democracy, assanges alleged 'douchebagness' wouldnt even qualify in the top 100.
and it is as another poster had just commented: assange has done more than any western government did for freedom and democracy, since world war II.
our governments do not want us to know things they have done. this was supposed to be a democracy, in which people were in power, as 'we the people'. we have become 'them the people', who are herded.
wake up. wikileaks is what we have. assange and his team, are the ones doing it. support them. for your future and your children's.
a comment that one of you made in a thread under an article about ubisoft and their psychopathic approach to drm, about how their ceo or somebody said that the time of game demos were long past and they didnt think that they were going to allow them anymore.
one of you said "as long as razor1911 has anything to say about it, we will have game demos'.
this hackers : 2 sony : 0 business seems exactly the same format.
you are delusional and also ignorant to the point of being a blank log.
prior to 1899, you had unbridled capitalism. entire usa ended up almost being owned by 10 people. 4 of them were most dominant and they were de facto rulers of economy in your country. anything's price, they determined. how much people earn, they determined. what people can read in papers, they determined. who wins elections, they determined.
even going further, there were no regulations in regard to businesses back in roman era that could limit their power. in the end, big farm owners continually pushed prices down by using slave labor and saturating the market with huge grain stocks, made small farmers go bankrupt, bought their farms, started employing them on their fields.
and when people started to move instead of working as slave or almost a slave, moving was banned. then started the principles of what we know as feudalism.
'capitalism' is something unreal. it can never work. there is no 'true capitalism'. in all instances that any society approximated that, it either turned to an empire, or fascism, or another form of aristocracy, or dictatorship.
because, that is at the CORE of capitalism ; ownership. if you let people own unboundedly, there will eventually be people or groups that own SO much that they become the deciders of what happens in a field of life in that country.
there is no solution to this. and no, 'choice' doesnt cut it. whichever grows bigger, is able to undo other competitors more. and eventually a hierarchy will establish itself, and become an aristocracy without being named one.
A F/OSS advocate is at best on the level of a unionist bread-baker waging a political campaign to raise baker wages.
so ?
your point ?
instead, we should let megacorporations decide what the bread prices be, just like how they do by keeping millions of tonnes of grain in warehouses and rotting them to keep grain prices up, while there are millions hungry in africa ?
that is freedom then ?
....
as long as there are easily deceived fools around like you, they can pass anything as freedom. that bread maker is fighting for not only his freedom, but also your freedom in that context.
While I agree in general with what you are saying, if you are using the assets of the "corporations which dominate the economic side," why would you assume to have any freedoms?
Should not the corporation that provides the service have a say in who can use that service and how? If not, what about their freedoms? There is an old adage about not biting the hand that feeds you, so this has been around a lot longer than the rise of capitalism.
a corporation becomes de facto government in a field of life, if that corporation or 1-2 others are de facto controllers of the means of life or services and products in that life.
basically, visa, mastercard dominate electronic payment. they are de facto governments of that field of life. period. if, they are let practice as they want, it means that they will effectively GOVERN that aspect of life, as they see fit.
that would be no problem, if visa, mastercard were democratic organizations, in which everyone had equal share. but, due to the principle of property and capitalism mechanics, mastercard, visa, any corporation that spans the globe can be owned/controlled by a a small group, or few individuals. even, one individual at times.
so basically, that makes that small group, or individuals or individual, the sole decision makers in regard to what happens in that aspect of life.
they basically become feudal lords of that field of life.
dont err and deceive yourself by thinking 'competition' -> if a corporation has become so big that it dominates a sector, it means that that corporation has the money and power to keep that position and outdo any competition. exceptions do not make a rule -> walmart is still walmart, visa is still visa, mastercard mastercard....
so basically, what capitalism accomplishes in the LONG run, is feudalizing the economic aspect of life. technically, political aspect of life, remains egalitarian and democratic, and that supposedly ensures freedom. BUT, because you need financing power for EVERYthing including politics, inevitably the economic aspect of life governs the political, and carries the feudalism there, to the political life. and that is the ill behind all the issues you people are complaining about corrupt government, senate, congress in usa.
Amazon, Paypal, etc. is not stopping anyone from exercising their freedoms (most likely speech in the context of your post). They are just not choosing to let you use their resources to do it. If you want to set up your own printing press or the electronic equivelant, you are free to do so. If that is economically not feasible, that isn't because you don't have the freedom to do it, you just don't have the means.
oh yes they are.
they are choosing not to let me use their resources, but, it turns out that they are the controller of majority (dominant majority) of those resources.
that effectively ends up pushing me to, well, 'set up my printing press', or its equivalent. ironically, to be able to make my voice heard to the masses with my 'equivalent' services, i have to first BEAT those corporations so that i can actually access those resources they have been withholding of me.
so, you are basically saying, every person is free, but the PRACTICE of that freedom requires engaging in a feudal turf battle with the dominant lord in that zone.
BR.
excuse me, but that kind of freedom, we had in medieval times. its 2010.
paypal has become de facto 'reliable and private' payment means for small transactions around the internet. doesnt matter whether youre in singapore or eu or australia or venezuela.
most bills passed are written by cooperations.......
cut that crap will you. bullshit.
bills are passed by corporations, because governments have been effectively limiting their power through use of regulations.
so, they are sponsoring bills that will favor them.
it is BEYOND moronic to think that if the government regulation goes away, it will be otherwise.
in such a situation there will be NOTHING preventing 2 companies becoming controllers of 90% of the market in ANYthing, and deciding who can use those means and who can not - because then they will be free to do whatever they want, with their 'property'.
see, if visa, mastercard also suspends wikileaks, there will be no modern electronic way for the masses to donate to them.
wake up. that 'free market' bullshit, can NOT work. how many more examples you need to fall over your head, before you realize that it is a delusion.
That is why so many of us believe in property rights, the rights to the fruits of our labors and the right to freely trade with others.
then you are a moron.
'property rights, 'rights of the fruits of our labors', and 'the right to freely trade with others', ends up at THIS point, if there is no size to the limit of an entity or an individual in regard to resources :
in a dog eat dog world of competition, you eventually end up with a few very fat dogs.
and those fattest dogs have the say on what happens and what does not, REGARDLESS of your delusions and self-indulgences about 'freedom of market and fruits of labors' and whatnot.
see, paypal is now the de facto provider of payment around the internet. it suspended wikileaks account. if 2 more major providers of payment suspends them, say, visa, or mastercard, then wikileaks will be practically unable to use modern payment methods, and people will have to snail mail.
lets see, if 2-3 major backbone providers, who control the traffic in most of united states, suspends or slows down their traffic, wikileaks site will not be visible to 200 million + americans.
see ?
in the world you describe, private INDIVIDUALS and CORPORATIONS decide what your freedom is.
Paypal is basically discriminating against an entity/person based in European Union, based on political pressure in united states.
United states, is not in european union.
Petition european parliament at the below url via their online form, or, mail your petition to the address below and ask European Parliament look into the practices of Paypal in european union, and take action against their holdings in Eu, if they are found in violation. If they are to do business in European union, they have to abide by its rules and regulations.
you know, the kind who dedicated their lives so that others could live: the kind who actually lost their lives.
you mean, the ones who lost their lives while propagating invasions, occupations so that american corporations can create mandates and get access to resources ?
in NO war after world war ii, there has been a situation in which american soldiers were dying for defending freedom and preventing oppression. in ALL situations, and that includes somalia, they were sent to those places to further private interests's aims in the region. Any zone either had strategic resources (panama canal, middle east), or, natural resources (somalia, middle east, oil).
How is the contrary (ie, forcing companies to host and support any speech whether they like it or not) no less oppressive?
So if the Neo-Nazis or NAMBLA want to be hosted by Amazon, Amazon has to let them? What about a rival entity, like B&N? Does PayPal have to handle transactions for their rivals? By your all-caps logic, to deny them would be OPPRESSION and AGAINST FREE SPEECH.
Things aren't black and white. I won't try to dictate where the line is drawn between standing for oppression and standing for freedom, but please try to grasp that there is a discussion that needs to be had (and continuously had, not just once) about it. Your view isn't the only one or even the one that results in the fairest, most reasonable outcome.
dont bullshit. there are set standards in regard to declaration of human rights, on this planet. EVERYthing that is considered civil and modern ideals and principles for civilization today, are based on these.
seeking to kill people based on race does not relate to any of those principles.
It is rather easy if you are using paypal for only personal purposes, but it is hard for any kind of web service provider, like websites, or web developers or other small businesses and professionals. It is so because paypal is widely accepted.
So, what other alternatives are there for paypal, for people who are engaged in such industries professionally ? can anyone give a clue ?
Freedom of information, or unfair business practices, or anything. tell them, these are happening just because of political pressure in a country that this service is based in. this service is caving to that pressure, affecting the freedom of people that are living in eu.
if they want to do business in eu, they have to abide by eu regulations.
Slashdot Mirror
That is only one way to have your voice heard. When the printing press first became available, it too was a controlled resource, but that didn't stop people from still using the written word or their voice in the public square. The US's declaration of independence did not depend on the printing press, even though by then it was readily available.
are you aware that you are showing 1410 as a reference, and justifying the LACK of freedom in today, by that date.
excuse me, but you are referencing fucking high middle ages in which feudal barons and lords ruled the land, and catholic church was still in power. (renaissance was just starting).
so, you are basically saying that, we have as much freedom as high middle ages, AND THIS IS NORMAL.
Now, don't get me wrong, having a few corporations able to control everything is a problem. But, what is the alternative? Having the government control access to everything? Even more of a concern, however, and this is what I believe gave Wikileaks its real power, is having just a few individuals/corporations owning most of the media outlets in the world.
the alternative is limiting any group, person, entity can grow in size.
the only reason such a max limit does not exist, is that the pioneers of economics in 18th century, were not able to foresee that small partnerships and businesses like 'huntington & bradley' could grow up to a size that would dwarf kingdoms.
because those pioneers was not able to foresee a threat to freedoms from small businesses growing as big as british empire, they thought that if there was equality in politics, and everyone free to engage in business, all would be well.
it didnt. in the size of 15 top economic entities of the world, there are at least 5 major corporations, over countries.
argument this :
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1896026&cid=34444004
you are TOLD you have freedom. you need MONEY to exercise that freedom. as long as you dont have the money to exercise that freedom, it means YOU DONT HAVE THAT FREEDOM.
and idiots like you can lay about, fooling themselves how they have 'freedom' (until they attempt to use it and see they cant) and talk about 'crying, whining, this, that, blabber and bullshit'.
the only difference in between medieval times and now, is that you are now supposedly allowed to be a baron. how many barons are there ?
it is just a different form of oppression. you are given the freedom to do anything in lip service (politically) but, you need heaps of cash to actually practice those freedoms.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1896026&cid=34444004
He is MY douchebag. He is the way i would want any douchebag to be like. I would share a flat with such a douchebag, at any given point.
As far as douchebags go, there were a lot of douchebags among the people who have pioneered this age of democracy that the power elite has made null and void.
Benjamin franklin used to strip naked and sit on a chair in the middle of a long corridor in his mansion, after opening the windows from both sides and ensuring that the corridor had good breeze.
Thomas paine was SO aggressive in his crusade against religion that, he set up a church of reason, and started a new religion.
i can go on and on.
in the list that can be made out of quirkiness, oddness, douchebagness of those people who now we see as pioneers of freedom or fighters of democracy, assanges alleged 'douchebagness' wouldnt even qualify in the top 100.
and it is as another poster had just commented: assange has done more than any western government did for freedom and democracy, since world war II.
our governments do not want us to know things they have done. this was supposed to be a democracy, in which people were in power, as 'we the people'. we have become 'them the people', who are herded.
wake up. wikileaks is what we have. assange and his team, are the ones doing it. support them. for your future and your children's.
they are important. very important.
a comment that one of you made in a thread under an article about ubisoft and their psychopathic approach to drm, about how their ceo or somebody said that the time of game demos were long past and they didnt think that they were going to allow them anymore.
one of you said "as long as razor1911 has anything to say about it, we will have game demos'.
this hackers : 2 sony : 0 business seems exactly the same format.
so, that is your argument.
you are delusional and also ignorant to the point of being a blank log.
prior to 1899, you had unbridled capitalism. entire usa ended up almost being owned by 10 people. 4 of them were most dominant and they were de facto rulers of economy in your country. anything's price, they determined. how much people earn, they determined. what people can read in papers, they determined. who wins elections, they determined.
even going further, there were no regulations in regard to businesses back in roman era that could limit their power. in the end, big farm owners continually pushed prices down by using slave labor and saturating the market with huge grain stocks, made small farmers go bankrupt, bought their farms, started employing them on their fields.
and when people started to move instead of working as slave or almost a slave, moving was banned. then started the principles of what we know as feudalism.
'capitalism' is something unreal. it can never work. there is no 'true capitalism'. in all instances that any society approximated that, it either turned to an empire, or fascism, or another form of aristocracy, or dictatorship.
because, that is at the CORE of capitalism ; ownership. if you let people own unboundedly, there will eventually be people or groups that own SO much that they become the deciders of what happens in a field of life in that country.
there is no solution to this. and no, 'choice' doesnt cut it. whichever grows bigger, is able to undo other competitors more. and eventually a hierarchy will establish itself, and become an aristocracy without being named one.
they are governments themselves.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1896026&cid=34444004
that is the real problem.
there are a lot of cc payment options. but, with paypal, you dont have the trust issue many people have with such direct cc payments.
https://donations.datacell.com/
the netherlands nonprofit that handles wikileaks' funds.
you can also reach that donation page from wikileaks.ch and -> support -> credit card.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1896026&cid=34444004
they are basically governments in electronic payment field. they GOVERN electronic payment, to an extent of 80-90%.
THAT MAKES THEM DE FACTO GOVERNMENT IN THAT SECTOR.
you cant let them decide what your freedom will be.
quite an interesting point he has there. pedophilia is more free than information it seems.
A F/OSS advocate is at best on the level of a unionist bread-baker waging a political campaign to raise baker wages.
so ?
....
your point ?
instead, we should let megacorporations decide what the bread prices be, just like how they do by keeping millions of tonnes of grain in warehouses and rotting them to keep grain prices up, while there are millions hungry in africa ?
that is freedom then ?
as long as there are easily deceived fools around like you, they can pass anything as freedom. that bread maker is fighting for not only his freedom, but also your freedom in that context.
hahaha youre funny.
european parliament is the parliament of the european union, and since lisbon treaty, it has ruling power.
its not a simple shit.
im really sick of those ayn randist 'free market' delusions.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1896026&cid=34444004
While I agree in general with what you are saying, if you are using the assets of the "corporations which dominate the economic side," why would you assume to have any freedoms?
Should not the corporation that provides the service have a say in who can use that service and how? If not, what about their freedoms? There is an old adage about not biting the hand that feeds you, so this has been around a lot longer than the rise of capitalism.
a corporation becomes de facto government in a field of life, if that corporation or 1-2 others are de facto controllers of the means of life or services and products in that life.
....
basically, visa, mastercard dominate electronic payment. they are de facto governments of that field of life. period. if, they are let practice as they want, it means that they will effectively GOVERN that aspect of life, as they see fit.
that would be no problem, if visa, mastercard were democratic organizations, in which everyone had equal share. but, due to the principle of property and capitalism mechanics, mastercard, visa, any corporation that spans the globe can be owned/controlled by a a small group, or few individuals. even, one individual at times.
so basically, that makes that small group, or individuals or individual, the sole decision makers in regard to what happens in that aspect of life.
they basically become feudal lords of that field of life.
dont err and deceive yourself by thinking 'competition' -> if a corporation has become so big that it dominates a sector, it means that that corporation has the money and power to keep that position and outdo any competition. exceptions do not make a rule -> walmart is still walmart, visa is still visa, mastercard mastercard
so basically, what capitalism accomplishes in the LONG run, is feudalizing the economic aspect of life. technically, political aspect of life, remains egalitarian and democratic, and that supposedly ensures freedom. BUT, because you need financing power for EVERYthing including politics, inevitably the economic aspect of life governs the political, and carries the feudalism there, to the political life. and that is the ill behind all the issues you people are complaining about corrupt government, senate, congress in usa.
Amazon, Paypal, etc. is not stopping anyone from exercising their freedoms (most likely speech in the context of your post). They are just not choosing to let you use their resources to do it. If you want to set up your own printing press or the electronic equivelant, you are free to do so. If that is economically not feasible, that isn't because you don't have the freedom to do it, you just don't have the means.
oh yes they are.
they are choosing not to let me use their resources, but, it turns out that they are the controller of majority (dominant majority) of those resources.
that effectively ends up pushing me to, well, 'set up my printing press', or its equivalent. ironically, to be able to make my voice heard to the masses with my 'equivalent' services, i have to first BEAT those corporations so that i can actually access those resources they have been withholding of me.
so, you are basically saying, every person is free, but the PRACTICE of that freedom requires engaging in a feudal turf battle with the dominant lord in that zone.
BR. excuse me, but that kind of freedom, we had in medieval times. its 2010.
paypal has become de facto 'reliable and private' payment means for small transactions around the internet. doesnt matter whether youre in singapore or eu or australia or venezuela.
most bills passed are written by cooperations.......
cut that crap will you. bullshit.
bills are passed by corporations, because governments have been effectively limiting their power through use of regulations.
so, they are sponsoring bills that will favor them.
it is BEYOND moronic to think that if the government regulation goes away, it will be otherwise.
in such a situation there will be NOTHING preventing 2 companies becoming controllers of 90% of the market in ANYthing, and deciding who can use those means and who can not - because then they will be free to do whatever they want, with their 'property'.
see, if visa, mastercard also suspends wikileaks, there will be no modern electronic way for the masses to donate to them.
wake up. that 'free market' bullshit, can NOT work. how many more examples you need to fall over your head, before you realize that it is a delusion.
That is why so many of us believe in property rights, the rights to the fruits of our labors and the right to freely trade with others.
then you are a moron.
'property rights, 'rights of the fruits of our labors', and 'the right to freely trade with others', ends up at THIS point, if there is no size to the limit of an entity or an individual in regard to resources :
in a dog eat dog world of competition, you eventually end up with a few very fat dogs.
and those fattest dogs have the say on what happens and what does not, REGARDLESS of your delusions and self-indulgences about 'freedom of market and fruits of labors' and whatnot.
see, paypal is now the de facto provider of payment around the internet. it suspended wikileaks account. if 2 more major providers of payment suspends them, say, visa, or mastercard, then wikileaks will be practically unable to use modern payment methods, and people will have to snail mail.
lets see, if 2-3 major backbone providers, who control the traffic in most of united states, suspends or slows down their traffic, wikileaks site will not be visible to 200 million + americans.
see ?
in the world you describe, private INDIVIDUALS and CORPORATIONS decide what your freedom is.
and, your freedom, as you can see is, 'not'.
Paypal is basically discriminating against an entity/person based in European Union, based on political pressure in united states.
United states, is not in european union.
Petition european parliament at the below url via their online form, or, mail your petition to the address below and ask European Parliament look into the practices of Paypal in european union, and take action against their holdings in Eu, if they are found in violation. If they are to do business in European union, they have to abide by its rules and regulations.
https://www.secure.europarl.europa.eu/parliament/public/petition/secured/submit.do?language=EN
Committee on Petitions
The Secretariat
Rue Wiertz
B-1047 Brussels
you know, the kind who dedicated their lives so that others could live: the kind who actually lost their lives.
you mean, the ones who lost their lives while propagating invasions, occupations so that american corporations can create mandates and get access to resources ?
in NO war after world war ii, there has been a situation in which american soldiers were dying for defending freedom and preventing oppression. in ALL situations, and that includes somalia, they were sent to those places to further private interests's aims in the region. Any zone either had strategic resources (panama canal, middle east), or, natural resources (somalia, middle east, oil).
How is the contrary (ie, forcing companies to host and support any speech whether they like it or not) no less oppressive? So if the Neo-Nazis or NAMBLA want to be hosted by Amazon, Amazon has to let them? What about a rival entity, like B&N? Does PayPal have to handle transactions for their rivals? By your all-caps logic, to deny them would be OPPRESSION and AGAINST FREE SPEECH. Things aren't black and white. I won't try to dictate where the line is drawn between standing for oppression and standing for freedom, but please try to grasp that there is a discussion that needs to be had (and continuously had, not just once) about it. Your view isn't the only one or even the one that results in the fairest, most reasonable outcome.
dont bullshit. there are set standards in regard to declaration of human rights, on this planet. EVERYthing that is considered civil and modern ideals and principles for civilization today, are based on these.
seeking to kill people based on race does not relate to any of those principles.
your argument is null and void.
It is rather easy if you are using paypal for only personal purposes, but it is hard for any kind of web service provider, like websites, or web developers or other small businesses and professionals. It is so because paypal is widely accepted.
So, what other alternatives are there for paypal, for people who are engaged in such industries professionally ? can anyone give a clue ?
Freedom of information, or unfair business practices, or anything. tell them, these are happening just because of political pressure in a country that this service is based in. this service is caving to that pressure, affecting the freedom of people that are living in eu.
if they want to do business in eu, they have to abide by eu regulations.
you can file your petition here :
https://www.secure.europarl.europa.eu/parliament/public/petition/secured/submit.do?language=EN