This is a bit long, you can ignore it if you like... Thanks for the chat though.
You are right, it is click and run, but I believe it is a single repository that everyone can submit to. You browse it through a single web interface.
I've been using both aptitude and synaptic and I find them quite hit-and-miss (Synaptic is of course much better than aptitude which is useful as a developer and scripting tool). Even with Synaptic though, MANY programs do not load menu items, so there is no way to find them once they are loaded. There is also no way to tell what menu it will be loaded into (Maybe there is in the description, but if so, it's unobvious enough to be useless).
Many programs just don't work (I've had a few completely lock up my system--had to reboot. Some work but just don't do anything--Why would the end user want to load a library? The repository is 70% chaff, where is the list of actual, usable runnable programs for me to browse, the rest is irrelevant. You can't tell from the descriptions anything but a few sketchy notes. Synaptic is not something I would feel comfortable asking a normal user to use.
I'm not saying that synaptic isn't useful, it is--and it's necessary for developers and Linux power-users, it's just not an end-user solution that a grandma will jump in and start using. If you believe it is, I'm sorry but you just aren't very empathic towards 80% of the computer users out there--please don't take offense at that, consider it a little and see if there is a little truth in it. I learned a lot about the world when I became better at seeing things like this through other people's eyes, but it's something most engineers find virtually impossible (Hell, most don't even realize that this can be done, or think they are already doing it).
about security,
Actually, I don't know for sure how I feel about the idea of these repositories. They are okay right now when the volume is manageable, but I'm not sure how they will scale in the future, especially with the different distros needing different repositories.
Also, I allowed easy-ubuntu to add some, and Added some based on a ubuntu help file I've been working with. Should I just trust every repository that some FAQ tells me to add? What's the alternative, run a background check against the FAQ author?
Personally I think security is always going to be an issue, and stuff will get through, eventually it'll be something big. I also trust that if something gets into a repository and distributed, it will be found promptly, and fixed well--better than I trust Microsoft to do the same.
By the way, I understand where you're coming from, I just no longer want to dedicate my life to this stuff. I did that 20 years ago. I installed Linux from floppies and rebuilt the kernel to make simple things happen and it was all fun, but that's not what we're talking here. We're talking real usability for real people, and the usability difference between click and go and synaptic is vast even if the functionality difference is minimal, or perhaps synaptic is even more functional. The implementers of Ubuntu apparently recognized this, that's why they have joined with Linspire to add Click and Run to Ubuntu.
I have never seen suspend work on a laptop. I have it installed on three of them right now. On one there is some kind of hardware bug that causes the keyboard to lock when the window is re-opened--this happened on windows as well, but on the other two, the screen stays black after you leave suspended state.
I believe they are both ATI
I found something somewhere that told me to change a line in a config file--something about setting restart video to false if the screen doesn't work... I forget but I tried that and it didn't work.
I'm also disappointed at how suspend works in windows--I think it's mostly a hardware issue, I don't think PC hardware is "Good" at suspending.
The mac suspend works beautifully, it's one of the biggest reasons I'm considering a macbook as my next hardware purchase.
First of all, I believe it is a single repository as well--at least I haven't figured out how to switch repositories. I have, however, figured out how to switch them with aptitude. So your security regards put click and go out front.
Secondly, click and go has graphics and user reviews. I still have trouble figuring out what all is available in synaptic.
Thirdly, click and go offers some commercial content too (Oh, there's the answer to your question!). Not a ton of it yet, but if you wanted to develop and sell a Linux game, I recommend you look into it now because it is probably going to be the best way to market Linux products once it's in Ubuntu.
You're right. I personally don't have that problem on my home machines, and I don't really mind if someone needs to do something on my office machine.
My only point was that having to do something as admin should mean something--it should be extremely rare. The way it seems for me, every time I have to do something at the CLI I might as well start with "sudo bash"
It's a problem for a grandma. Someone mentioned that it was available under the system menu, I can't believe I didn't check there.
I believe the PC & Mac do it at the system call level--if someone makes a system call and doesn't have the privilege, the system compensates by prompting.
To expect every program to add a system call would be disaster.
Problem is, most linux apps are expected to be able to run without a GUI, so you don't want a system call attempting to pop up a dialog.
I don't know if that is fixable with the current linux model.
The research only applied to things I wanted to do that were out of the mainstream. For what grandma wants to do, they are pretty much all point & click, trivial stuff. The mainstream stuff just works (about the same as it does on windows).
The things I had to research were--well I haven't had that problem for so long I kinda forgot. I'll try to list what I can remember.
-- Setting up SSH took a little research (Keys and stuff), but grandma doesn't need to use that. -- Setting up sudo to not require a password (when used from my account) took 15 minutes research because I couldn't find the right place. -- The VMWare install isn't trivial, but it's simple. A smart grandma could figure it out, but most wouldn't need it. I suppose when it's made into a package it would become trivial. -- Setting up Netbeans & eclipse then moving the JVM got me kinda funked up. Eventually I deleted them both and installed both (in the correct places this time) and it went off like a charm.
See--the kind of tasks I've had trouble with wouldn't be encountered by grandma, and you'd have just as much of a trouble on a MAC for those tasks, most likely.
Sorry to be so vague that you could misread that part, but I don't say "Grandma could use it" lightly.
I agree with your sudo comment, that's basically the point I was making. However, windows users are always running as root. MACs and Vista works exactly the same way as Linux, so you don't have a better alternative (Fact is, you want to run as root to install globally-available software).
As I understand it, If you made the directories that you are installing global apps into public, then you could run apt-get without sudo.. but then you're a little insecure. I think that's how the MAC's "Applications" folder works--if you have permissions to it, you can write without giving the system root access.
Most software installs will soon be via Click N Go which does not prompt for root. I don't know how they do it, but you can install a BUNCH of software with it and it is much easier to use than any windows or MAC install. (Windows installs all require download and run, this is just "Click a button on the Click and Go website and it's installed". Mac installs have that really irritating and obscure "Drag this icon into your hard disk somewhere, then somehow create a shortcut/link--good luck" which is even worse than a PC--I would NOT afflict my grandma with that (Don't get me wrong, by the way, love the mac.... but that install is just stupid)
It's essentially "Install build environment" (one cmd line entry) Download and unzip VMWare server into a temp directory. Execute script in temp directory (with root permissions)
Hit enter a lot
Enter serial number you got for free from vmware web site where you downloaded server Start vmware server everything else is simple GUI.
The VMs can be run full-screen or windowed. Full-screen, the performance ran full-speed video and audio pretty well. I don't know how it would do with a very heavy full-screen graphics game...
You could use the suid bit but set the properties so that apt-get can only be executed by a "Wheel", IIRC. That said, I realize the SUID bit can be easily abused.
You are right about Ubuntu (and linux in general) only requiring root when it needs it, but I'm sure vista is the same way.
Linux has gotten much smarter--the used to require root to mount a CD-ROM. I'm sure they still do require root permissions somewhere, but it's probably hidden behind the automounter.
My point wasn't that there was anything really wrong with SUDO, it's totally usable; it was that criticizing vista for entering admin mode so often as to make it "Standard operating procedure" isn't very valid unless you also criticize Linux for the exact same thing.
Pretty simple concept--lots of people seemed to think I didn't like typing passwords or something... Hmph.
So, how do I use apt-get to install an "Untrusted" application into my own directory? Or, better yet, how do I use it to install an "Untrusted" application into the system level--I mean, the whole concept of "Root" is so you can have untrusted apps and NOT give them access to the entire system, but now we're saying that every app we install has to be trusted--so why not always run as root. (please don't answer that--I KNOW why not, I'm just making a point).
It's not a hassle, I completely understand. The problem is that I am so often asked to give up root privileges to programs--and this problem was pointed out quite a bit against Vista.
The problem, as pointed out against Vista, is that once you are in the habit of giving access all the time, you might as well be running as root.
Also, by the way, it's really annoying that you can't actually enable root from the GUI level. Both Windows and Mac have a prompt if root access is requested by any app, but in Linux it's a real BITCH if you are running a program from a menu (you don't have any idea what the name of the program is or where it is located) and that program then wants root access. There really is no simple solution (I ran into this yesterday with VMWare--it wanted me to be root in order to enter a serial number, but there was no obvious path to figuring out what was running. I suppose I could have looked at ps and figured it out, but that's unacceptable. On windows I could have looked at the menu item properties, but I don't know where to go on Ubuntu, moreover I shouldn't have to.
Also, here is the very worst thing about Linux: > In the future if you think something is a hassle or annoying, do a little research on it, Linux is very flexible and odds are you can modify or change it.
This means that every person who ever uses Linux has to fix it. What makes me so happy about Ubuntu is that I think they get what a horrible concept that is.
I understand what you are saying, I wasn't talking about XP style permissions. What I was talking about was Vista's attempt to restrict admin access to only be asserted when required. Suddenly you are getting popups all the time asking for admin access.
This makes sense, however, as does the way you explained sudo. But the problem is that many people who complained about Vista's continual prompting, aren't realizing that typing sudo all the time is the same exact thing.
As for the security hole issue. I don't know the way apt-get works, but it seems to me that when it installs something it is executing some kind of a script. That script is most likely running as root. If I'm wrong, or if the scripting language is weak enough that it can't cause a problem, please let me know.
Also, if this is the case and apt-get is completely safe to run as admin, why not just set it's SUID/SGID flag and be done with it?
Not that apt-get is not the ONLY time I type SUDO either, it seems to be that I have to give up admin access a few times a day for some reason or another.
If you get in the habit of doing something like this all the time, you might as well be running as admin all the time (At least that was the complaint many people had with Vista)
Not really relevant, it supplies the program with root access-that's the issue, but thanks for pointing that out.
I hadn't considered that lately--It explains why I haven't been able to get su to work lately--I'd assumed that the root password was the same as mine and that's what sudo took--now I realize that there probably is no root password at all.
I've dipped into Linux many times (Since before CDs) but this is the first time I've installed it on all my computers.
Yesterday, in fact, I got windows XP running within Ubuntu (My current project requires it) and it was easy, free and very slick. This means I can convert my last remaining dual-boot computers (because of games, mostly) over to Linux.
I still run into things here and there that SHOULD just take 5 minutes but end up taking 2 hours of research, but much less often than with any other distro--and I haven't figured out how to get dual monitors working yet. Oh, and suspend/resume still doesn't work on any of the 3 laptops (I got my wife a MAC and the fact that suspend/resume always works, and does so quickly and smoothly makes me so jealous!)
Every install worked flawlessly in each laptop. CD's, floppies and USB drives are automatically mounted, all resolutions are available on the screens (even wide-screens), and even my wireless internal lan adapter just worked out of the box.
With the addition of Click And Go (I hope it's in this release) it'll be MUCH easier to acquire and install new software than it is in Windows.
If you are considering installing Linux for the first time, I advise you scan this page first--I use it all the time now. It gives you a great summary of what can be done and how to do it. Most "Tasks" are simply a few entries on the CLI now--and most installs can be done from a decent GUI as well (the guide uses CLI because it's easier to describe) http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Edgy
Oh, and hey--one complaint (more of an observation actually), for those of you who complain about how often you must enter the root password on a PC, take a look at that page and see how often "SUDO" (the Linux equivalent) is required. Holy cow, it's like every single time you want to call apt-get (in other words, any time you want to install ANYTHING), you have to give up the root password. I believe this means that all install scripts are running as root--I don't know if this is a security hole, but it sure sounds like one. This is the exact equivalent to every windows program install requiring administrator access--something they have at least recognized as a flaw and begun to combat.
But at any rate--seriously, it's now mainstream. Stick it on your grandma's computer. This from a Very Picky user.
The debate whenever this and a few other "Hot Topics" are mentioned really confuses me.
Let's say that this is a natural cycle, or let's say your' almost certain it's not happening at all...
Why would anyone not try to fix it anyway? If it's natural, let's stop it because it's going to mean a whole lot of death and destruction. If there is even a small chance that it might happen--why wouldn't you error on the side of caution?
The only reason I can imagine is money. Somebody is afraid that it will effect their personal financial situation. Although this will be true for some, it will also effect others positively. New technologies employ more engineers to research and deploy them. A change from the larger concentrations of oil money to smaller companies and individuals can't hurt and can help quite a lot. This happens all the time, it's part of life.
There is another possible alternative--some people seem to take it as a religious matter (at least the vast majority of supporters for climate change denial seem to be Christians). The only argument I've heard is that God made the earth, and we can't do any damage.
If anyone out there believes this, you really REALLY haven't thought it out. Bush alone (or any US president, or dozens of people in Russia) could make the entire planet unlivable--does anyone question this? If you are a Christian--be wary of anyone telling you that people cannot effect a change in the earth's environment--they are manipulating you via your belief in the worst way, probably for personal gain.
My thought is that the word Belief is problematic. To believe is the same as to not believe--it means that you pre-choose a position and start discarding evidence that my come in to support the opposing position.
To be able to state what you know without going into what you believe would be much better.
There is no evidence about God one way or the other... You are welcome to choose to believe something, just remember that it's your personal opinion and not a fact--unless you have personal evidence.
When it comes down to it--the word Belief should be very close to the word "Imagine" or "Dream", if you actually have personal proof, it's not a belief it's a fact or knowledge (at least for you). There are a few things I have personal proof of that are outside the belief structure of a typical skeptic, so I get really nervous when I see that word--skeptics are believers as well, they have faith in the fact that a lack of physical evidence can imply something--The original "Flat earthers" were absolutely skeptics.
I'm not an apple fanboy yet, but I'm really impressed with the immediate response of the Safari development team. Imagine if IE was slowing down some other program--the last group you'd expect to hear from would be the IE dev team--so far outside the realm of possibility as to be laughable.
I don't go to CompUSA much any more--It's downtown and there is a BestBuy, CircuitCity and Staples nearby, but I always thought that CompUSA tended to be a lot cheaper than BestBuy and CircuitCity.
I really don't ever expect help from any tech salesperson, but I can't imagine them being less knowledgeable or helpful than BestBuy (although I have to admit that BB's salespeople are always bugging you, so at least if you need to get into a locked case you can.
What I do remember from CompUSA is they used to have fantastic sales. at BB if a $32 product goes on sale, it always seems to be for $29.99 at best.
CompUSA sales often featured products at 40% or half off. The first week a game was out, I used to always look for it in the CompUSA flier because they always seemed to have a great sale the first week--like $30 for a new $50 game.
On top of that, with all these stores I couldn't find a single decent hard-drive enclosure, CompUSA had a dozen to choose from, and I know that there are many other components I won't find at any of the others..
If our Spokane store closes, we're going to have to travel 500 miles to Seattle to get decent computer parts, or we'll have to pay BestBuys terribly inflated prices for what little they do stock.
Strangely enough, Staples has decent sales. I consider that my best alternative, bought a 20" LCD monitor there for under $140, but the selection is probably the most limited.
Well, no, the grandparent was talking about the way we tend to use a single strain of bees which is almost certainly true. This has repeatedly lead to huge failures in the past, and will continue to do so until we become proactive. Where's the profit in being proactive?
For long-term survivability of our species, unchecked capitalism is a huge failure. Luckily we don't have unchecked capitalism; but all people are born ignorant of the past and many don't learn so there is always another crop of free-marketeers to push us further in that direction.
The article didn't even go into Scepter of Goth or the other really early MORPG (Forget the name). (Since it could only handle up to 16 dial-in users I had to forgo the MMORPG title--it wasn't really "Massive")
I also didn't see any mention of online MUDs but they came later(so they may not have been mentioned yet); Scepter was around in the early 80's, predating (or at least paralleling) most of the games listed in the article and the IBM PC itself.
What kind of a differentiation are you making here? Is it because the software is downloaded at runtime that you consider it a "Terminal?"--in other words, if they downloaded a jar once, would that "Fix" the problem you are perceiving, or must the software be delivered on a disk in order to be a "true" client-server app.
If you don't change the settings, I'm pretty sure you are wrong. I wrote a network management program as an applet once and we had to get a security cert to get access to the devices we were managing unless the page was served from said device (It wasn't at the time).
Javascript may be able to access other ip addresses, but I doubt it--would be a pretty serious security flaw.
He can't do it as part of the police because they can't do it legally either, in fact that's how these people think they justify themselves, helping the police do something they can't. --- As an aside, the way we prosecute hackers (crackers) is one of the stupidest things ever done by a culture. Our fear of the immediate threat of someone more knowledgeable hacking our computer has taken from us us the best anti-hacking/bug fixing resource in history.
If, at a federal level, we gave a bounty for finding security flaws and (if severe and unfixed) eventually fined the companies that created the flawed software, we would have absolutely no malware now, and we would be absolutely invulnerable to foreign attacks via the internet. As flaws become harder to find, bounties on a given piece of software would rise, possibly to hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars (why not? We pay ball players more than that for doing a heck of a lot less for society.)
It would be possible that someone could find a new exploit--very rarely, but word always gets out, someone brags or shares software and as soon as a critical mass knew about it (10 people or so?), someone would claim the bounty and the bug would go away.
Instead we make cracking criminal so people don't report it (many would even without a reward) and keep it underground.
Slashdot Mirror
This is a bit long, you can ignore it if you like... Thanks for the chat though.
You are right, it is click and run, but I believe it is a single repository that everyone can submit to. You browse it through a single web interface.
I've been using both aptitude and synaptic and I find them quite hit-and-miss (Synaptic is of course much better than aptitude which is useful as a developer and scripting tool). Even with Synaptic though, MANY programs do not load menu items, so there is no way to find them once they are loaded. There is also no way to tell what menu it will be loaded into (Maybe there is in the description, but if so, it's unobvious enough to be useless).
Many programs just don't work (I've had a few completely lock up my system--had to reboot. Some work but just don't do anything--Why would the end user want to load a library? The repository is 70% chaff, where is the list of actual, usable runnable programs for me to browse, the rest is irrelevant. You can't tell from the descriptions anything but a few sketchy notes. Synaptic is not something I would feel comfortable asking a normal user to use.
I'm not saying that synaptic isn't useful, it is--and it's necessary for developers and Linux power-users, it's just not an end-user solution that a grandma will jump in and start using. If you believe it is, I'm sorry but you just aren't very empathic towards 80% of the computer users out there--please don't take offense at that, consider it a little and see if there is a little truth in it. I learned a lot about the world when I became better at seeing things like this through other people's eyes, but it's something most engineers find virtually impossible (Hell, most don't even realize that this can be done, or think they are already doing it).
about security,
Actually, I don't know for sure how I feel about the idea of these repositories. They are okay right now when the volume is manageable, but I'm not sure how they will scale in the future, especially with the different distros needing different repositories.
Also, I allowed easy-ubuntu to add some, and Added some based on a ubuntu help file I've been working with. Should I just trust every repository that some FAQ tells me to add? What's the alternative, run a background check against the FAQ author?
Personally I think security is always going to be an issue, and stuff will get through, eventually it'll be something big. I also trust that if something gets into a repository and distributed, it will be found promptly, and fixed well--better than I trust Microsoft to do the same.
By the way, I understand where you're coming from, I just no longer want to dedicate my life to this stuff. I did that 20 years ago. I installed Linux from floppies and rebuilt the kernel to make simple things happen and it was all fun, but that's not what we're talking here. We're talking real usability for real people, and the usability difference between click and go and synaptic is vast even if the functionality difference is minimal, or perhaps synaptic is even more functional. The implementers of Ubuntu apparently recognized this, that's why they have joined with Linspire to add Click and Run to Ubuntu.
I have never seen suspend work on a laptop. I have it installed on three of them right now. On one there is some kind of hardware bug that causes the keyboard to lock when the window is re-opened--this happened on windows as well, but on the other two, the screen stays black after you leave suspended state.
I believe they are both ATI
I found something somewhere that told me to change a line in a config file--something about setting restart video to false if the screen doesn't work... I forget but I tried that and it didn't work.
I'm also disappointed at how suspend works in windows--I think it's mostly a hardware issue, I don't think PC hardware is "Good" at suspending.
The mac suspend works beautifully, it's one of the biggest reasons I'm considering a macbook as my next hardware purchase.
The SUDO stuff was covered elsewhere--to death.
But your question about Click n go...
First of all, I believe it is a single repository as well--at least I haven't figured out how to switch repositories. I have, however, figured out how to switch them with aptitude. So your security regards put click and go out front.
Secondly, click and go has graphics and user reviews. I still have trouble figuring out what all is available in synaptic.
Thirdly, click and go offers some commercial content too (Oh, there's the answer to your question!). Not a ton of it yet, but if you wanted to develop and sell a Linux game, I recommend you look into it now because it is probably going to be the best way to market Linux products once it's in Ubuntu.
You're right. I personally don't have that problem on my home machines, and I don't really mind if someone needs to do something on my office machine.
My only point was that having to do something as admin should mean something--it should be extremely rare. The way it seems for me, every time I have to do something at the CLI I might as well start with "sudo bash"
It's a problem for a grandma. Someone mentioned that it was available under the system menu, I can't believe I didn't check there.
I believe the PC & Mac do it at the system call level--if someone makes a system call and doesn't have the privilege, the system compensates by prompting.
To expect every program to add a system call would be disaster.
Problem is, most linux apps are expected to be able to run without a GUI, so you don't want a system call attempting to pop up a dialog.
I don't know if that is fixable with the current linux model.
The research only applied to things I wanted to do that were out of the mainstream. For what grandma wants to do, they are pretty much all point & click, trivial stuff. The mainstream stuff just works (about the same as it does on windows).
The things I had to research were--well I haven't had that problem for so long I kinda forgot. I'll try to list what I can remember.
-- Setting up SSH took a little research (Keys and stuff), but grandma doesn't need to use that.
-- Setting up sudo to not require a password (when used from my account) took 15 minutes research because I couldn't find the right place.
-- The VMWare install isn't trivial, but it's simple. A smart grandma could figure it out, but most wouldn't need it. I suppose when it's made into a package it would become trivial.
-- Setting up Netbeans & eclipse then moving the JVM got me kinda funked up. Eventually I deleted them both and installed both (in the correct places this time) and it went off like a charm.
See--the kind of tasks I've had trouble with wouldn't be encountered by grandma, and you'd have just as much of a trouble on a MAC for those tasks, most likely.
Sorry to be so vague that you could misread that part, but I don't say "Grandma could use it" lightly.
I agree with your sudo comment, that's basically the point I was making. However, windows users are always running as root. MACs and Vista works exactly the same way as Linux, so you don't have a better alternative (Fact is, you want to run as root to install globally-available software).
As I understand it, If you made the directories that you are installing global apps into public, then you could run apt-get without sudo.. but then you're a little insecure. I think that's how the MAC's "Applications" folder works--if you have permissions to it, you can write without giving the system root access.
Most software installs will soon be via Click N Go which does not prompt for root. I don't know how they do it, but you can install a BUNCH of software with it and it is much easier to use than any windows or MAC install. (Windows installs all require download and run, this is just "Click a button on the Click and Go website and it's installed". Mac installs have that really irritating and obscure "Drag this icon into your hard disk somewhere, then somehow create a shortcut/link--good luck" which is even worse than a PC--I would NOT afflict my grandma with that (Don't get me wrong, by the way, love the mac.... but that install is just stupid)
Someone else replied with a much more complicated procedure than I used. Try this:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=183209
It's essentially "Install build environment" (one cmd line entry)
Download and unzip VMWare server into a temp directory.
Execute script in temp directory (with root permissions)
Hit enter a lot
Enter serial number you got for free from vmware web site where you downloaded server
Start vmware server
everything else is simple GUI.
The VMs can be run full-screen or windowed. Full-screen, the performance ran full-speed video and audio pretty well. I don't know how it would do with a very heavy full-screen graphics game...
can't you set apt-get so it is only executable by a "Wheel" group that you are a member of?
You could use the suid bit but set the properties so that apt-get can only be executed by a "Wheel", IIRC. That said, I realize the SUID bit can be easily abused.
You are right about Ubuntu (and linux in general) only requiring root when it needs it, but I'm sure vista is the same way.
Linux has gotten much smarter--the used to require root to mount a CD-ROM. I'm sure they still do require root permissions somewhere, but it's probably hidden behind the automounter.
My point wasn't that there was anything really wrong with SUDO, it's totally usable; it was that criticizing vista for entering admin mode so often as to make it "Standard operating procedure" isn't very valid unless you also criticize Linux for the exact same thing.
Pretty simple concept--lots of people seemed to think I didn't like typing passwords or something... Hmph.
So, how do I use apt-get to install an "Untrusted" application into my own directory? Or, better yet, how do I use it to install an "Untrusted" application into the system level--I mean, the whole concept of "Root" is so you can have untrusted apps and NOT give them access to the entire system, but now we're saying that every app we install has to be trusted--so why not always run as root. (please don't answer that--I KNOW why not, I'm just making a point).
It's not a hassle, I completely understand. The problem is that I am so often asked to give up root privileges to programs--and this problem was pointed out quite a bit against Vista.
The problem, as pointed out against Vista, is that once you are in the habit of giving access all the time, you might as well be running as root.
Also, by the way, it's really annoying that you can't actually enable root from the GUI level. Both Windows and Mac have a prompt if root access is requested by any app, but in Linux it's a real BITCH if you are running a program from a menu (you don't have any idea what the name of the program is or where it is located) and that program then wants root access. There really is no simple solution (I ran into this yesterday with VMWare--it wanted me to be root in order to enter a serial number, but there was no obvious path to figuring out what was running. I suppose I could have looked at ps and figured it out, but that's unacceptable. On windows I could have looked at the menu item properties, but I don't know where to go on Ubuntu, moreover I shouldn't have to.
Also, here is the very worst thing about Linux:
> In the future if you think something is a hassle or annoying, do a little research on it, Linux is very flexible and odds are you can modify or change it.
This means that every person who ever uses Linux has to fix it. What makes me so happy about Ubuntu is that I think they get what a horrible concept that is.
I understand what you are saying, I wasn't talking about XP style permissions. What I was talking about was Vista's attempt to restrict admin access to only be asserted when required. Suddenly you are getting popups all the time asking for admin access.
This makes sense, however, as does the way you explained sudo. But the problem is that many people who complained about Vista's continual prompting, aren't realizing that typing sudo all the time is the same exact thing.
As for the security hole issue. I don't know the way apt-get works, but it seems to me that when it installs something it is executing some kind of a script. That script is most likely running as root. If I'm wrong, or if the scripting language is weak enough that it can't cause a problem, please let me know.
Also, if this is the case and apt-get is completely safe to run as admin, why not just set it's SUID/SGID flag and be done with it?
Not that apt-get is not the ONLY time I type SUDO either, it seems to be that I have to give up admin access a few times a day for some reason or another.
If you get in the habit of doing something like this all the time, you might as well be running as admin all the time (At least that was the complaint many people had with Vista)
Not really relevant, it supplies the program with root access-that's the issue, but thanks for pointing that out.
I hadn't considered that lately--It explains why I haven't been able to get su to work lately--I'd assumed that the root password was the same as mine and that's what sudo took--now I realize that there probably is no root password at all.
Yes, vmware server. It was a trivial install--the install script had a lot of questions, but they are all have good default values.
Yes, very close.
I've dipped into Linux many times (Since before CDs) but this is the first time I've installed it on all my computers.
Yesterday, in fact, I got windows XP running within Ubuntu (My current project requires it) and it was easy, free and very slick. This means I can convert my last remaining dual-boot computers (because of games, mostly) over to Linux.
I still run into things here and there that SHOULD just take 5 minutes but end up taking 2 hours of research, but much less often than with any other distro--and I haven't figured out how to get dual monitors working yet. Oh, and suspend/resume still doesn't work on any of the 3 laptops (I got my wife a MAC and the fact that suspend/resume always works, and does so quickly and smoothly makes me so jealous!)
Every install worked flawlessly in each laptop. CD's, floppies and USB drives are automatically mounted, all resolutions are available on the screens (even wide-screens), and even my wireless internal lan adapter just worked out of the box.
With the addition of Click And Go (I hope it's in this release) it'll be MUCH easier to acquire and install new software than it is in Windows.
If you are considering installing Linux for the first time, I advise you scan this page first--I use it all the time now. It gives you a great summary of what can be done and how to do it. Most "Tasks" are simply a few entries on the CLI now--and most installs can be done from a decent GUI as well (the guide uses CLI because it's easier to describe) http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Edgy
Oh, and hey--one complaint (more of an observation actually), for those of you who complain about how often you must enter the root password on a PC, take a look at that page and see how often "SUDO" (the Linux equivalent) is required. Holy cow, it's like every single time you want to call apt-get (in other words, any time you want to install ANYTHING), you have to give up the root password. I believe this means that all install scripts are running as root--I don't know if this is a security hole, but it sure sounds like one. This is the exact equivalent to every windows program install requiring administrator access--something they have at least recognized as a flaw and begun to combat.
But at any rate--seriously, it's now mainstream. Stick it on your grandma's computer. This from a Very Picky user.
The debate whenever this and a few other "Hot Topics" are mentioned really confuses me.
Let's say that this is a natural cycle, or let's say your' almost certain it's not happening at all...
Why would anyone not try to fix it anyway? If it's natural, let's stop it because it's going to mean a whole lot of death and destruction. If there is even a small chance that it might happen--why wouldn't you error on the side of caution?
The only reason I can imagine is money. Somebody is afraid that it will effect their personal financial situation. Although this will be true for some, it will also effect others positively. New technologies employ more engineers to research and deploy them. A change from the larger concentrations of oil money to smaller companies and individuals can't hurt and can help quite a lot. This happens all the time, it's part of life.
There is another possible alternative--some people seem to take it as a religious matter (at least the vast majority of supporters for climate change denial seem to be Christians). The only argument I've heard is that God made the earth, and we can't do any damage.
If anyone out there believes this, you really REALLY haven't thought it out. Bush alone (or any US president, or dozens of people in Russia) could make the entire planet unlivable--does anyone question this? If you are a Christian--be wary of anyone telling you that people cannot effect a change in the earth's environment--they are manipulating you via your belief in the worst way, probably for personal gain.
My thought is that the word Belief is problematic. To believe is the same as to not believe--it means that you pre-choose a position and start discarding evidence that my come in to support the opposing position.
To be able to state what you know without going into what you believe would be much better.
There is no evidence about God one way or the other... You are welcome to choose to believe something, just remember that it's your personal opinion and not a fact--unless you have personal evidence.
When it comes down to it--the word Belief should be very close to the word "Imagine" or "Dream", if you actually have personal proof, it's not a belief it's a fact or knowledge (at least for you). There are a few things I have personal proof of that are outside the belief structure of a typical skeptic, so I get really nervous when I see that word--skeptics are believers as well, they have faith in the fact that a lack of physical evidence can imply something--The original "Flat earthers" were absolutely skeptics.
I'm not an apple fanboy yet, but I'm really impressed with the immediate response of the Safari development team. Imagine if IE was slowing down some other program--the last group you'd expect to hear from would be the IE dev team--so far outside the realm of possibility as to be laughable.
I don't go to CompUSA much any more--It's downtown and there is a BestBuy, CircuitCity and Staples nearby, but I always thought that CompUSA tended to be a lot cheaper than BestBuy and CircuitCity.
I really don't ever expect help from any tech salesperson, but I can't imagine them being less knowledgeable or helpful than BestBuy (although I have to admit that BB's salespeople are always bugging you, so at least if you need to get into a locked case you can.
What I do remember from CompUSA is they used to have fantastic sales. at BB if a $32 product goes on sale, it always seems to be for $29.99 at best.
CompUSA sales often featured products at 40% or half off. The first week a game was out, I used to always look for it in the CompUSA flier because they always seemed to have a great sale the first week--like $30 for a new $50 game.
On top of that, with all these stores I couldn't find a single decent hard-drive enclosure, CompUSA had a dozen to choose from, and I know that there are many other components I won't find at any of the others..
If our Spokane store closes, we're going to have to travel 500 miles to Seattle to get decent computer parts, or we'll have to pay BestBuys terribly inflated prices for what little they do stock.
Strangely enough, Staples has decent sales. I consider that my best alternative, bought a 20" LCD monitor there for under $140, but the selection is probably the most limited.
Hmph
Well, no, the grandparent was talking about the way we tend to use a single strain of bees which is almost certainly true. This has repeatedly lead to huge failures in the past, and will continue to do so until we become proactive. Where's the profit in being proactive?
For long-term survivability of our species, unchecked capitalism is a huge failure. Luckily we don't have unchecked capitalism; but all people are born ignorant of the past and many don't learn so there is always another crop of free-marketeers to push us further in that direction.
Do you really have that code? I and a few friends would love to see that! Any chance you could send me a copy?
bill.kress is my gmail acct if you think you could.
The article didn't even go into Scepter of Goth or the other really early MORPG (Forget the name). (Since it could only handle up to 16 dial-in users I had to forgo the MMORPG title--it wasn't really "Massive")
I also didn't see any mention of online MUDs but they came later(so they may not have been mentioned yet); Scepter was around in the early 80's, predating (or at least paralleling) most of the games listed in the article and the IBM PC itself.
That seems a rather narrow view.
Software is running on the client in this case.
What kind of a differentiation are you making here? Is it because the software is downloaded at runtime that you consider it a "Terminal?"--in other words, if they downloaded a jar once, would that "Fix" the problem you are perceiving, or must the software be delivered on a disk in order to be a "true" client-server app.
What the hell are you even bitching about??
I think it's just that Bill O'Riley hasn't gotten around to telling us about that yet. As soon as he does, we'll be right on it.
If you don't change the settings, I'm pretty sure you are wrong. I wrote a network management program as an applet once and we had to get a security cert to get access to the devices we were managing unless the page was served from said device (It wasn't at the time).
Javascript may be able to access other ip addresses, but I doubt it--would be a pretty serious security flaw.
He can't do it as part of the police because they can't do it legally either, in fact that's how these people think they justify themselves, helping the police do something they can't.
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As an aside, the way we prosecute hackers (crackers) is one of the stupidest things ever done by a culture. Our fear of the immediate threat of someone more knowledgeable hacking our computer has taken from us us the best anti-hacking/bug fixing resource in history.
If, at a federal level, we gave a bounty for finding security flaws and (if severe and unfixed) eventually fined the companies that created the flawed software, we would have absolutely no malware now, and we would be absolutely invulnerable to foreign attacks via the internet. As flaws become harder to find, bounties on a given piece of software would rise, possibly to hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars (why not? We pay ball players more than that for doing a heck of a lot less for society.)
It would be possible that someone could find a new exploit--very rarely, but word always gets out, someone brags or shares software and as soon as a critical mass knew about it (10 people or so?), someone would claim the bounty and the bug would go away.
Instead we make cracking criminal so people don't report it (many would even without a reward) and keep it underground.