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Why would anyone want to own a road?

- ? what? People are making money by building and maintaining roads everywhere in the world. Hell, in Canada they do it, what are you talking about? I 100% prefer private roads that I can pay a fee to use to any form of government taxes.

Or does your solution of traveling around a city involve stopping for a toll booth every 50 feet?

- I am sure the free market can come up with a solution that is the most profitable, sustainable, while affordable and at high quality. That's what free market does. Would multiple road operators agree on a number of formats or standards to make toll roads as smooth as possible? I say yes, they would.

I'm still interested in knowing how you see this as a workable solution.

- it's a perfectly workable solution. The only requirement is that there shouldn't be any government taxing income and wealth, controlling money and interest rates, setting business rules (which are taxes), setting price minimums or maximums, including labour prices (minimum wage, etc.)

People find a way to make it work because it's profitable to make it work.

They don't need to know exactly where you've driven, just whether or not you've left the state.

In Ontario, Canada, there's a toll highway, the 407, that works by having cameras at every entrance/exit to the highway. Using these, they log where you enter and exit the highway and send you a bill in the mail based on how far you went on the highway.

So, they could put something on every road that leads in and out of the state that could simply communicate with a device in the car that adds up only the miles that were driven in-state. It would stop counting the miles once you drive through an exit, then start again once you drive back into Oregon.

Then they wouldn't need GPS to track each person's actual whereabouts. And the people who love to circumvent the law would have a device to hack.

How the hell is the parent 'Insightful'? In this case he is completely factually ignorant, that's the truth.

407 - this is built from concrete except for a few patches here or there. It's the best road around here (Toronto, Canada.)

From the wikipedia: It was the first highway in almost thirty years since Highway 427 to be surfaced with concrete instead of asphalt, which despite involving a costlier initial investment, lasts significantly longer and has better reflective capabilities (although motorists have a noisier ride).

If your insurance rates go up for a dirty license plate ticket then you're using the wrong insurance company.

I'm also in Toronto and there are no demerit points attached to a dirty plate or a "407 proof" reflective plate cover so their toll cameras can't get see your plate. --at least I didn't lose any points when I was pulled for each of these reasons - in fact I didn't get a ticket for the dirty plate, I just had to clean it off right then and there. The reflective cover cost me a $103.75 fine though. (still a hell of a lot cheaper than paying the 407)

For those of you who are interested: http://www.407etr.com/ this is an express toll highway that goes over the top of the Greater Toronto Area.

Our provincial government built it and then decided that they didn't want to manage it any longer so they sold it off to a private company for pennies compared to what it cost to build.

My favourite part is that if the 407 decides that you owe them money (whether they're right or wrong) then you must pay that bill before you're allowed to renew your license plate with the Province. Yes, you read that right. A private company, with just one small clerical error, can prevent me from renewing my car's plate.

Here in Ontario, Canada we have something similar for the 407 toll highway. However, because we have privacy laws and people still basically get to force respect from the government around here (via the courts sometimes), you can purchase a transponder with cash, without identification, and when the transponder is detected by the oncoming overhead scanners, the cameras are NOT turned on for your privacy.

When your transponder is running low on currency (it is deducted from your numbered account with each trip), you can go refill it at any 407 booth, again with cash.

Wow, huh?

http://www.407etr.com/

One possible good use for this would be paying tolls.

They already have that in Ontario, but using your regular license plate. On the 407 ETR around Toronto, you can either buy a transponder (monthly rental fee but lower fares) or just have your plate OCR'd at full speed when you drive on and off the highway.

One possible good use for this would be paying tolls.

They already have that in Ontario, but using your regular license plate. On the 407 ETR around Toronto, you can either buy a transponder (monthly rental fee but lower fares) or just have your plate OCR'd at full speed when you drive on and off the highway.

As much as I hate replying to my own post, I forgot the backup in my last post:

407 Policies

Under the section of things they don't do, speeding enforcement is explicitly listed. The same thing is stated on the insert that comes with the toll bills.

and greedy corporations can't control the roads (pay me for a license, pay me a monthly access fee, pay me again for joining the flow of traffic just now, now pay me some more at a rate of n-per-mile... plus tax and environmental fees).

Uhh... I beg to differ.

Even our government (Provincial government of Ontario, Canada) can't seem to be able to control the skyrocketing rates the Highway 407 corporation has imposed. Unfortunately with few alternative ways to get around for those of us who live in the 905 within a reasonable timeframe, we are at their mercy. Whether or not we actually use the thing.

and greedy corporations can't control the roads (pay me for a license, pay me a monthly access fee, pay me again for joining the flow of traffic just now, now pay me some more at a rate of n-per-mile... plus tax and environmental fees).

Uhh... I beg to differ.

Even our government (Provincial government of Ontario, Canada) can't seem to be able to control the skyrocketing rates the Highway 407 corporation has imposed. Unfortunately with few alternative ways to get around for those of us who live in the 905 within a reasonable timeframe, we are at their mercy. Whether or not we actually use the thing.

Drive? Toll roads should let you pay for the convenience of nice paved surfaces to drive on.

I agree, but until you commies with your socialist road system down there in the U.S. wisens up and puts in some real toll roads like we have up here, then your toll road system will never be efficient enough to actually use on a daily basis.

Actually, I'm being sarcastic. I think it's absurd to try and track how far everyone drives and charge them for each mile or kilometre. Not to mention, it's a little too invasive for me. I'm quite happy with a gas tax to pay for the roads, honestly.

On days when I don't take the scenic "long way", I take the 407 ETR, an electronic toll road: It takes a picture of your license plate when you get on and when you get off, and automatically sends you a bill for $0.129 cents per kilometer (through an arrangement with the government that also sees the government withhold plate renewals if you don't pay this private company...but that's a whole other rant). If they need to rely on their cameras they tack on an extra $3.30 per trip, though you can rent a transponder for a monthly fee.

OK, you use it you pay for it. Fair enough. But it burns me that approximately 44% of the price of gas here in Canada is taxes, so effectively on my 79 cent per litre gas I'm paying about 35 cents of tax. The idea behind the tax is that it pays for the road infrastructure, so getting 100km / 7L, I'm paying about $2.45 for 100km trip in taxes. Well now if I drive that 100km on the 407, I'm also paying $12.90 to the ETR as well. What a rip off.

Mebbe you need to talk to these folks: 407 ETR. License plate recognition works real good...

Indeed, it is a tax haven up here. After paying the three taxes on gas (something like 58% of the cost of gas...and the government has the audacity to talk about constraints and controls on the oil companies when people get up in arms about high gas prices...), approximately 95% of my weekly commute is on an electronic toll road (the 407 ETR) where I'm paying 12.95 cents per kilometer driven (that's ~20 cents per mile) to some Spanish consortium who was basically handed land that was supposed to be the 403 extension, long set aside at the tax payers expense, all because there are no viable alternative routes as the existing highways, like the QEW, are a 100km long traffic jam. At the same time the provincial government is acting as the toll collectors for this private enterprise, and is in, from a conspiratorial perspective, curiously disregarding the public non-toll infrastructure (who'd know if collusion was a part of the deal : The entire bid and agreement was a secret process and is largerly secret from the public eye).

One quick nitpick though: Yes I know we have the best hospitals -It's easy to have awesome healtcare for the president at the Mayo clinic, but that's of little relevence to Jimmy in the middle of nowheresville. A better measure of the quality of healthcare is average lifespan - Canada's average livespan is 79.6. Japan's is 80.91. Italy is 79.25. The United States of America is 77.4.

actually we have an electronic toll expressway here in Toronto [http://www.407etr.com]. Drivers have tried lots of things, such as you suggest, the "strategic mud on the plates" trick.

If the system can't pick up your plate there is a chance it will get flagged. Not sure how it works (someone at the tracking centre dispatches the vehicle description?) but its not uncommon to see vehicles being chased down for obscured plates among other things (for example commercial vehicles over 5 tons must have a transponder.)

Some guy even tried fake plates that he could rotate Bond-car style with a switch from the front seat.

Locals don't like that a new, very conservative, "business friendly" provincial administration came in, and sold the newly completed project to a private consortium, for a song. But that is another story. Here is a history.

According to their FAQ...

Q. Do out-of-province users get a free ride?

A. All users of the highway are billed. If you choose to travel 407 ETR you are required by law to pay all tolls, fees and interest. The monthly bill is due upon mailing.

My experience would suggest otherwise. I drove the 407 several times with my BC plates in the two months after I moved to Toronto, and was never billed for it. I would have expected them to get my new address from ICBC (The Insurance Corporation of British Columbia), the crown corporation that handles vehicle registration and insurance in that province. I did give ICBC my new address, so that they could send me a statement of my driving record, so apprently the folks at 407 ETR never asked.

The 407 expressway in Toronto Canada uses a similar system to bill users of the toll highway who don't have government supplied transponders. The system simply snaps a photograph of the rear plate when at the cars entry and exit point on the highway. The system seems to work well although I have heard of people using everything from mud to complicated rigging that flips their licence plate up to avoid being billed.

Details are at their website - they even have a system to pay for a transponder by cash to remain anonymous.

For people from states/provinces that do not have an agreement with Ontario to share lisence data they just do not charge them. It makes a bit of sense that if it costs more to collect than the charge then it isn't worth it. However, according to the local laws, everyone is still liable, so if they can find you to send a bill you are probably required to pay it, but they probably do not have much leverage against people driving up from Panama...

This has already been done for the last 4 years here in Ontario, Canada. The only Toll highway we have uses camera's to snap your rear license plate and you get a bill in the mail 407 ETR website [407etr.com]

Next year, the Ontario government will be posting a list of approved automobiles for travel on the Highway 407 Electronic Toll Route. Only Chevrolet, Buick, and a couple Pontiac vehicles will be compatible with the new concrete technology. ;-)