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Using Tire Pressure Sensors To Spy On Cars

AngryDad writes "Beginning last September, all vehicles sold in the US have been required to have Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) installed. An article up at HexView enumerates privacy issues introduced by TPMS, and some of them look pretty scary. Did you know that traffic sensors on highways can be adopted to read TPMS data and track individual vehicles? How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby? TPMS has been discussed in the past, but I haven't seen its privacy implications analyzed before. Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."

203 comments

  1. Finally, an April Fools story!!! by jollyreaper · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is a joke, I hope. *crosses fingers*

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."

      How about another easy fix. Just disable the fscking thing.....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not.

    3. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you have a higher end vehicle (BMW/Lexus) there's a very good chance this story doesn't apply to you.

      Most vehicles have indirect tpms.. meaning your car knows your tire is low because a flat/low tire has different rotational characteristics than a properly inflated one does. No rfid.. no scary intrusion of privacy.

    4. Re: Finally, an April Fools story!!! by transporter_ii · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."

      Yeah, encryption would stop the little hacker down the street and keep them from setting up a road side explosive set just for you, but it wouldn't stop the government -- who would mandate a backdoor -- from doing it.

      And personally, I'm not really worried about the hacker down the street...if cars start blowing up I would bet money it would be government doing it...and not a foreign government, but our government (but of course, it would be blamed on terrorist and the population at large would give up ever last bit of the tiny amount of "freedom" that we have left to get those darn terrorist).

      Personally, I've never really been scared by any of the things our government keeps telling me I should be terrorized by, but what really scares me is the bleak future I see for my kids and their kids...caused by our own Orwellian, all-powerful government.

      transporter_ii

      --
      Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
    5. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, the law that mandates TPMS also mandates that only direct systems be used.

      Almost all OEM's are using systems by schrader-bridgeport, seimens, TRW and a few others. These are all direst systems and are installed on every trim level of car, from your cheap aveo to your top of the line merc.

    6. Re: Finally, an April Fools story!!! by c6gunner · · Score: 5, Funny

      Personally, I've never really been scared by any of the things our government keeps telling me I should be terrorized by, but what really scares me is the bleak future I see for my kids and their kids...caused by our own Orwellian, all-powerful government.
      Yeah, I soooooo hear ya on that one! You know what else scares me? Clowns. The government keeps saying that there's nothing to fear from clowns, but I know The Truth! Those colourful costumes and goofy makeup are the perfect disguises for Secret Service death squads, prowling our neighbourhoods and looking to assassinate or brainwash anyone they see purchasing organic tomatoes. It's downright terrifying!

      I'm glad to see that there's other right-minded folk like me on here! Keep up the good work Mr. Transporter!
    7. Re: Finally, an April Fools story!!! by lgw · · Score: 1

      For lack of mod points, let me just say: awesome!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    8. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it's an April Fool story. The funnier part is that whoever wrote this doesn't realize that there is allready a system in Europe that is in used by law for truckers to spy on drivers. It is just a question of time before it gets to cars (cost justification). When a cop stops you for any reason he can read the information from your vehicle. If you have violated some laws it will cost you. It is just a question of time before they add a modem to call in to tell the cops that you're speeding.

    9. Re: Finally, an April Fools story!!! by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I soooooo hear ya on that one! You know what else scares me? Clowns. The government keeps saying that there's nothing to fear from clowns, but I know The Truth! Those colourful costumes and goofy makeup are the perfect disguises for Secret Service death squads, prowling our neighbourhoods and looking to assassinate or brainwash anyone they see purchasing organic tomatoes. It's downright terrifying! Too fucking right! Clowns are scary as shit!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDFmNgmaEe0
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    10. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (If reader is American :s/tyre/tire/g )

      The problem with that is that with RunFlat tyres, you can't tell from the 'feel' of the car whether you have a flat or not. That's why TPMS has started to become mandatory. Even though runflat tyres allow you to drive safely for up to 50 miles at 50 mph (that's what my MINI Cooper's manual says) - if you don't KNOW that you have a flat - you could easily continue to drive for a hundred miles at maybe 80mph - and that's really dangerous because the tyre will shred at that speed.

      So we need TPMS of some kind.

      However, I don't see the need for this super-high-tech direct pressure monitoring system that the US law seems to require. My car uses the wheel speed sensors (which you already need for ABS braking) to detect when the average speed of one wheel is different from the other one on that side of the car (which happens when it's deflating because the diameter of the tyre reduces somewhat as the air leaks out - so it has to rotate more times to cover the same distance) - that's plenty to give you warning of a flat tyre - I've seen it work.

      So protecting your privacy by turning TPMS off simply isn't safe with runflat tyres. It may not be possible to turn it off at all if disabling the TPMS causes it to tell the car's computer you have a flat (or a faulty TPMS sensor) and does something like forcably limiting you to driving at no more than 50mph and causing the car to quit entirely after 50 miles of driving.

      However - I intensely dislike runflats. They are about 3 to 4 times more expensive than regular tyres - and if you do get a flat from a nail or something, the chances that your local tyre shop can simply plug the leak is vastly less with runflats than with conventional tyres because they can only plug leaks in the center two thirds of the tread pattern. If you get just a tiny hole in the outer third of the tread or in the sidewalls - they can't plug it and you have to toss out an otherwise perfectly good tyre. Worse still, if you drive any significant distance on a flat runflat - you'll destroy the thing such that it can't be repaired at all.

      Moreover, the harder compound rubber they have to use to give runflats those super-stiff side-walls dramatically lessens traction (on my car by about 15% in cornering) and it also wears out faster. So as soon as the runflats that came with my car wore out, I replaced them with nice sticky conventional tyres - which really don't need TPMS at all.

    11. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tpms moniters transmit a mac adress of device and temp and pressure of tire each sensor has a diff mac adress based off 13 chars
      i work at a tire place some scaners work 2 inchs from tire some work 20 or so feet from tire

      they all have a custom ID due to a car would read a tire next to it as being its own tire and the valve stem in most cases are the antenina for the tpms
      they cost 45-150$ depending on car and life is more like 5 years if u take off the valve covers tpms last about a year at best due to
      they seize up and air wont enter stem

      so no not a joke

    12. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "The problem with that is that with RunFlat tyres, you can't tell from the 'feel' of the car whether you have a flat or not. That's why TPMS has started to become mandatory."

      Well, then why didn't they make them mandatory ONLY on cars that had runflats? The only car I've ever owned that had them were on my '97 Corvette. That car had to have them since it had no room for a spare...but, other than that...never had a car with runflats.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    13. Re:Finally, an April Fools story!!! by Bruiser80 · · Score: 1

      Being a bit of a corvette nut, I have a bit of understanding on TPMS systems for at least GM. Older TPMS systems (pre-2005 corvettes) had a passive TPMS system - if you, say replaced your wheels with ones that didn't have TPMS sensors, the car would give you an error, but no performance issues would ensue. Newer TPMS systems (after 2005) will now do as you say - the horsepower is limited, speed is limited. They call it "limp mode". I ended up having to buy a separate set of sensors for my racing set. I looked into the situation, and some people were looking into making a transponder that would send fake signals to the computer. The new sensors, while cheaper (older sensors were more expensive, perhaps due to economies of scale), require a modulating frequency generator to reset the senors - to "learn" them to the car. Older sensors could be triggered using a magnet, making swapping wheels a lot easier. As for you Runflat vs Conventional argument, Runflats are getting better. Comparing low-profile tires, where the difference should be less, there is still a notable performance difference between runflat and standard (runflats still have a harsher ride, but they've been getting better), though the prices are getting a lot closer. You can get some cheap Toyo Tires for $200 each, but decent ones run 300-350 a tire. Runflats start up around $350 for 18" Firestones and can get up to $600 for 19" Goodyears of Michellins. As for tire wear, I basically get 1 year of autocrossing out of a set of tires. The OEM tires wore out really fast, but the replacement runflats I put on have been wearing well.

      --
      Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in the mud. After a while, you realize the engineer enjoys it.
    14. Re: Finally, an April Fools story!!! by ACMENEWSLLC · · Score: 1

      I have one of these vehicles. I was looking at using RFID to do some tracking of the vehicle (Did it leave it's parking space at 3am? If so, sound alarm.) But since it has TPMS, how would I go about using that? I guess 1st thing would be to setup a scanner on 315MHz & 433Mhz and see if mine is wired or wireless would be first, eh? Then find an aftermarket system that works on the same frequency & interface it via a serial interface..

  2. Headline: Tire PMS kills! Story at 11! by kiick · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sorry, Couldn't resist.

    This isn't an 4/1 joke, is it?

    1. Re:Headline: Tire PMS kills! Story at 11! by alxkit · · Score: 0

      Pantone Matching System? Ahhh, yes. That's the story above this one. And oh boy, are they PMSing.

  3. OnStar by Digital+Anvil · · Score: 1, Redundant

    I knew buying cars with OnStar was going to be bad.

    --
    Is the pain worth it, just to see defeat in the eyes of your enemy?
    1. Re:OnStar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I knew buying cars with OnStar was going to be bad.

      Me, I'm waiting until the day vehicular electronics systems begin randomly acheiving sentience. Will they go on a killing spree a la Stephen King's Christine or will they become your best friend and help you fight crime a la Knightrider? The future is full of creepy car possibilities.

    2. Re:OnStar by Intron · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There was a previous article about remote shutdown using OnStar which mentioned that OnStar can be used to remotely eavesdrop on your conversations. The OnStar rep didn't answer when I asked them why they included that capability.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    3. Re:OnStar by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      I don't have onstar, don't know anybody who does, and only know a bit about it. Not too wild about the privacy implications either.

      However, one of their advertised features is that if you get in a crash they can initiate a connection and attempt to talk to you--if you can't respond, they can automatically contact police/whoever. I would imagine that's why they have the ability to monitor the ambient sound in your car.

    4. Re:OnStar by geekoid · · Score: 5, Funny

      I know 1 person with on star, and they were in a bad accident, having the OnStar saved her life.

      Clearly OnStar causes accidents.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  4. DDoS by New_Age_Reform_Act · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This article is slashdotted for now. Probably some sort of 4/1 thing.

    --
    "The New Age. The New Beginning."
  5. Part of me feels paranoid now... by AioKits · · Score: 5, Funny

    Especially this part:
    How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby?
    Great, first I have to worry about the tolls on I-44 through Oklahoma, now I got to worry about exploding vehicles?
    Maybe in the future we can all roll to work in giant hamster balls. Getting groceries home will be a bitch tho...

    --
    "Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
    1. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by evil+agent · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe in the future we can all roll to work in giant hamster balls. Getting groceries home will be a bitch tho...

      Yeah, I learned this the hard way. Just make sure the food is enclosed in metal containers so the hamsters can't get to it.

      --
      End transmission.
    2. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by couchslug · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When the Red Army Faction assassinated Alfred Herrhausen in 1989, they used a photocell trigger to set off an "IED" in a bicycle bag. It was a superbly precise job which targeted the actual position in the car occupied by Herrhausen.

      Fast forward to now. One might scan the sensors on a target vehicle as it drives a common route, emplace IEDs on multiple routes, and break out the popcorn (or pita as the case may be) until the target drives by. This would be ideal for political hits where the target uses a specific armored vehicle.

      http://www.german-way.com/aherrhsn.html

      "Maybe in the future we can all roll to work in giant hamster balls."

      That would be quite a hamster.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    3. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I saw that picture of the hamster with giant balls... wait that was a squirrel.

    4. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, right, like I'm going to do anything that risks pissing off a hamster with balls big enough to roll home in.

    5. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by ajft · · Score: 1

      Especially this part:
      >> How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby?
      > Great, first I have to worry about the tolls on I-44 through Oklahoma, now I got to worry about exploding vehicles?
      > Maybe in the future we can all roll to work in giant hamster balls. Getting groceries home will be a bitch tho...

      Removing the balls from the giant hamsters isn't exactly a piece of cake either...

    6. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Removing the balls from the giant hamsters isn't exactly a piece of cake either... Well, except for the miniture giant space hamsters: they don't put up much of a fight (just be careful when they go for the eyes).
      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    7. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Maybe in the future we can all roll to work in giant hamster balls. Getting groceries home will be a bitch tho... I would recommend oranges.
      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    8. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby?"
      Though I have found the most logical device is a container within ball barrings and powder is encased and ignited inside a combustion chamber.

    9. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by AHuxley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes the use of flash triggers is interesting as it was used get the British Army's radio jamming devices
      The real fun is who first thought of it :-)
      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article1530661.ece

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    10. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was not the RAF who killed the german banker, the job was simply too precise and too high-tech for looney terrorist. It is rumored that the Mossad did it, because A. H. vocally opposed Germany's excessively huge payouts to Israel for nazi crimes. The total amount paid between 1948-2006 autumn was revealed last autumn as 60 (sixty) billion euros or about 100 billion USD. Yet, the jews want more to the tune of a total 100 billion euros.

    11. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by arivanov · · Score: 3, Funny
      This is Germans. They still study chemistry, physics and basic electronics and other freeky terrorist skills in school even today.

      I would not be afraid of such nasty things happening in an decent god-fearful rule obiding English Speaking country. This has long been taken care of through the amendments to the school and university curriculum. And if worst comes to worst control orders can be used from people taking high school chemistry courses: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7107265.stm

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    12. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by woolio · · Score: 1

      When the Red Army Faction assassinated Alfred Herrhausen in 1989, they used a photocell trigger to set off an "IED" in a bicycle bag. It was a superbly precise job which targeted the actual position in the car occupied by Herrhausen.

      Fast forward to now. One might scan the sensors on a target vehicle as it drives a common route, emplace IEDs on multiple routes, and break out the popcorn (or pita as the case may be) until the target drives by. This would be ideal for political hits where the target uses a specific armored vehicle.


      Sounds like a real PITA for that bicyclist and Alfred...

    13. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "It was not the RAF who killed the german banker, the job was simply too precise and too high-tech for looney terrorist. "

      Being a terrorist doesn't automatically imply "lunacy" or technical incompetence.
      One may be smart, intelligent, capable, willing to kill political enemies, and willing to study in order to do it with style. A copperplate charge was old news, so were the sensors, so was the ability to measure the distances required. Putting them together was the nifty bit, but certainly not beyond educated people. Books on ordnance and explosives wouldn't have been hard to find (I read plenty of them before the intarweb made it fashionable) in ordinary libraries.

      BTW, terrorism is not the least "looney". It is merely fighting, and it often works.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    14. Re:Part of me feels paranoid now... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Sounds like a real PITA for that bicyclist and Alfred..."

      The bicyclist wasn't there, just the bicycle.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  6. RFID tracking by nguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Tires already come with RFID tags, which can also be read and tracked remotely. Cars probably also emit all sorts of other unique signals that can be recognized and tracked.

    Of course, cars also come with this thing called a "license plate", which can also be tracked remotely and wirelessly.

    Basically, if you drive, you can be tracked.

    1. Re:RFID tracking by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1

      Of course, cars also come with this thing called a "license plate", which can also be tracked remotely and wirelessly.
      I don't know about "wirelessly" unless you are talking about people using their eyeballs. Eyesight detection isn't at all efficient and certainly not automated. However, there are non-wireless camera systems that can be used to more automatedly detect license plate numbers. Although, from my understanding, that hasn't really been perfected yet. Using RFID combined with detectors at every street corner will allow for constant surveillance of every car all the time.
    2. Re:RFID tracking by porkmusket · · Score: 1

      My car didn't 'come with' a license plate, I had to pay for it afterwards and screw it on myself. I can just as easily unscrew it.

    3. Re:RFID tracking by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      I haven't heard about RFID in tires but even if that's the case, you can always remove or disable them. Doing the same with TPMS will, at best, result in your car constantly bitching about flat/missing tires. Or maybe even violating some new nanny-state law.

      Doing any other kind of tracking requires a lot more effort tham putting a primitive scanner under a manhole cover or something.

    4. Re:RFID tracking by nguy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Using RFID combined with detectors at every street corner will allow for constant surveillance of every car all the time.

      So do license plate readers, and they can operate from greater distances and completely passively. Cost for a license plate reader is about the same as a good RFID reader, and they are probably at least as reliable. Furthermore, you are required to keep your license plate readable.

      Some cities are already starting to implement complete license plate-based tracking of vehicles.

    5. Re:RFID tracking by Introspective · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Basically, if you drive, you can be tracked. No. Certain objects attached to the car might be able to be tracked. There is a big difference between tracking tires, license plates, etc. and tracking people. A distinction which most posters seem to have ignored in their paranoia.

    6. Re:RFID tracking by everphilski · · Score: 2, Informative

      Kinda hard to do without puncturing the tire. Read up on it: here. Michelin at least seems to mount it inside the laminas of the tire.

      Of course you could always surround your tires in tin foil if you are THAT paranoid.

    7. Re:RFID tracking by taskiss · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sure, and you will then be denied the privilege of driving on the road that has the sensor that reads your tire pressure.

      By George, I think you've got it!

      --
      - real hackers don't have sigs -
    8. Re:RFID tracking by gatzke · · Score: 1

      Basically, if you drive, you can be tracked. That is why I walk everywhere.

      Without shoes.

      Or clothes.

      Except for my tinfoil hat.
    9. Re:RFID tracking by timeOday · · Score: 3, Informative

      You better tell these guys because their business is OCR'ing license plates. It's not research. I rent cars from Avis in Orlando fairly regularly and they have this option right now.

    10. Re:RFID tracking by ArcherB · · Score: 4, Funny

      Kinda hard to do without puncturing the tire. Read up on it: here. Michelin at least seems to mount it inside the laminas of the tire.

      Of course you could always surround your tires in tin foil if you are THAT paranoid. I hear that microwaving your tires for 15 seconds each will also disable the RFID tags.

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      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    11. Re:RFID tracking by Cid+Highwind · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Mostly because it's a distinction that's sure to be ignored by law-enforcement types too. Ever recieved a photo-radar, red light or toll-evasion ticket? It doesn't matter who was driving, if your car was at the scene of the crime you're responsible for the fine.

      --
      0 1 - just my two bits
    12. Re:RFID tracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      What I am worried about is the RFID tags embedded in Reynolds Wrap.

    13. Re:RFID tracking by afaik_ianal · · Score: 5, Informative

      Of course, cars also come with this thing called a "license plate", which can also be tracked remotely and wirelessly.

      I don't know about "wirelessly" unless you are talking about people using their eyeballs. On Australian highways (In my state of New South Wales, at least), we have special cameras located on overpasses and things every couple of hundred kilometres or so. These most definitely detect where the number plates are in the image, cut them out, perform OCR, then record the ones that are on trucks. It's used to enforce the laws preventing truckers from driving too far without sleep, and constant speeding.

      These cameras have been around for over 10 years, and I assure you, are highly accurate.

    14. Re:RFID tracking by afaik_ianal · · Score: 2, Funny

      ... and I can stuff beans up my nose if I want. But I don't.

    15. Re:RFID tracking by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Tires already come with RFID tags, which can also be read and tracked remotely."

      Not much range on such scanners.

      "Cars probably also emit all sorts of other unique signals that can be recognized and tracked."

      Car electronics systems are well understood. Only a system with a car-specific signature that emitted a strong enough signal would be practical to exploit.

      "Of course, cars also come with this thing called a "license plate", which can also be tracked remotely and wirelessly."

      License plate scanners must have line-of-sight to the license plate to work. If you have a line-of-sight view of your target it's toast, but such scanners are bulky and expensive.

      "Basically, if you drive, you can be tracked."

      By the government, of course. I'm not fond of tech that is easy for non-government folks to exploit _either_.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    16. Re:RFID tracking by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link. I was hesitant to write that it was already out there since I haven't looked into the practical side of the technology for a while. I know about the research, but since I practically live in a cave, I didn't know if distance OCR of license plates was practical yet.

    17. Re:RFID tracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Furthermore, you are required to keep your license plate readable.
      I see so many cars on the road that have the plate in the window behind dirty or tinted glass it is not even funny. Easy solution to the TPMS: get 3rd party wheels without the sensors.
    18. Re:RFID tracking by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      I didn't know if distance OCR of license plates was practical yet.

      It isn't. Even the ANPR systems they use in petrol stations to help catch people who drive off without paying have a reliability of about 60%, and they're trying to hit a stationary plate in an approximately known location every time.

      I've never seen one that could read the number plate on my car, and that's just a standard (albeit old standard) UK number plate. I've seen an ANPR system get the first three letters and the last letter right, or the two digits and the last letter right, but never the whole thing.

      Of course since there are only two cars like it in a city of over a million people, it's never going to be hard to track...

    19. Re:RFID tracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      you didn't use purchased tin foil did you? what about the rfid embedded in that?

    20. Re:RFID tracking by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I considered that, but it would take one big freaking microwave....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    21. Re:RFID tracking by aurispector · · Score: 2, Funny

      REAL paranoics mine, smelt and roll out their OWN tinfoil.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    22. Re:RFID tracking by camperdave · · Score: 1

      RFID range is largely a matter of how sensitive your receiver and antenna are. RFIDS put out approximately 250 microwatts of power. According to this, a 1 microwatt transmitter has a range of 45km. So with a good antenna and receiver, I don't see reading RFIDS from a hundred metres away to be much of a problem.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    23. Re:RFID tracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      License plate OCR allow you to be identified once found. RFID allows your vehicle to be immobilized (think On-Star) even if disguised, plates obscured with mud, etc. In a city-sized array of sensors, you could send a signal to all sensors to immobilize this vehicle and call in if the car came anywhere near any of the sensors ... it's somewhat more difficult if you're just watching license plates.

      Don't simply think of tracking the vehicle, think of doing something with it....

    24. Re:RFID tracking by fredklein · · Score: 1

      Cost for a license plate reader is about the same as a good RFID reader, and they are probably at least as reliable. Furthermore, you are required to keep your license plate readable.


      London uses license plates to charge you if you drive into the inner city. The solution is simple: get a sheet magnet (http://www.custom-magnets.com/Adhesive_magnet_rolls.htm) and print a fake license plate on paper. Stick the paper to the magnetic sheet, and slap that puppy over your real license plate. Removal is easy, just pull it off. Reusable, and you have plausable deniability, too, since 'anyone' can stick something on the outside of your car....

      Try that with the RFID's buried 1 inch deep in your tires.

    25. Re:RFID tracking by geekoid · · Score: 1

      But you could create a devise that sent a bunch of addition data, effectively loosing the information in noise.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    26. Re:RFID tracking by WiseWeasel · · Score: 1

      Don't forget to dissolve your toe-prints and fingerprints with industrial cleaner... And always cover yourself in random people's DNA... Wear a full-body disguise to obscure your physical features... Hell, just order delivery.

      --
      "I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
    27. Re:RFID tracking by budgenator · · Score: 1

      When you come out of the cave, you'll find that your state is issuing new license plates in colors that are easier for the OCR tracker to read and have infrared reflective characters .They can read 100 plates a minute.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    28. Re:RFID tracking by budgenator · · Score: 1

      tin makes whiskers, up to a cm long! A tinfoil can become a direct connection to the brain.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    29. Re:RFID tracking by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      Here in Ontario we have a nifty toll route called the 407 ETR and that does it all automatically either off of transponders in the vehicles or by reading the license plate at the on and off ramps and then sends the bill to your house.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    30. Re:RFID tracking by Mountaineer1024 · · Score: 1

      Those cameras are visible when entering and leaving Adelaide from any major road as well, so I think it's a fair assumption that the truck tracking system is nationwide.

    31. Re:RFID tracking by Alsee · · Score: 1

      it would take one big freaking microwave....

      No problem. I already make my popcorn in 5 pound bags.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    32. Re:RFID tracking by nguy · · Score: 1

      The solution is simple: get a sheet magnet (http://www.custom-magnets.com/Adhesive_magnet_rolls.htm) and print a fake license plate on paper

      The readers check for this and compare the license plate against the actual model of car you're driving; you'll be stopped half a mile later for driving with an illegal license plate.

      Reusable, and you have plausable deniability, too, since 'anyone' can stick something on the outside of your car....

      It's your responsibility to ensure before you get in your car that your license plate is correct and readable.

    33. Re:RFID tracking by jamesh · · Score: 1

      These cameras have been around for over 10 years, and I assure you, are highly accurate.

      I don't understand why they aren't used for catching regular speeding violations too. Catching someone with a radar gun doing 107kph in a 100kph zone is dumb. Catching someone moving between point a and point b in 5.5 minutes, where point a and point b are 10km apart, equating to an average speed of ~110kph is much smarter - there is no doubt that the car in question was traveling over the speed limit for a sustained period of time.

      As someone else said, it is already quite easy to identify individual vehicles using fairly standard technology, so I don't see why this is news.
    34. Re:RFID tracking by jamesh · · Score: 1

      No problem. Just disassemble the tyre first.

    35. Re:RFID tracking by Detritus · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Catching someone moving between point a and point b in 5.5 minutes, where point a and point b are 10km apart, equating to an average speed of ~110kph is much smarter - there is no doubt that the car in question was traveling over the speed limit for a sustained period of time.

      You are assuming that there are no discontinuities in the space-time continuum. I never leave home without my wormhole generator.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    36. Re:RFID tracking by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Catching someone moving between point a and point b in 5.5 minutes, where point a and point b are 10km apart, equating to an average speed of ~110kph is much smarter - there is no doubt that the car in question was traveling over the speed limit for a sustained period of time.
      You are assuming that there are no discontinuities in the space-time continuum. I never leave home without my wormhole generator.

      I realize that you were joking, but I'd like to add: whenever I'm on a turnpike (the kind where you take a ticket at the beginning, and then pay at the end based on the exit number you entered at), I always stop at a rest stop. That way my average speed won't ever be an issue.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    37. Re:RFID tracking by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because if they actually ticketed everyone that broke the speed limit law, government would finally be forced to raise speed limits... especially since Australia is likely in the same spot as the US; illegally setting limits lower than dictated by civil engineers for the purpose of raising revenue and pushing more draconion measures on drivers.

    38. Re:RFID tracking by funkybiggorilla · · Score: 1

      That's a car from Harris County on their webpage . . .

      HPD uses OCR technology with the cameras in their cars to scan ALL plates they pass or at least ALL plates that the camera sees. The system runs each plate and then alerts the officer about any "issues." The officer's no longer have to observe specific cars, their camera systems do it all for them . . .

      .

    39. Re:RFID tracking by b0bby · · Score: 1

      In my experience, at least in the US, these types of tickets are treated in the same way as parking tickets - the owner pays, there are no points. This avoids the whole mess of trying to prove who was driving. (In the UK, they do try to determine the driver.)

    40. Re:RFID tracking by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Here in Ontario, Canada we have something similar for the 407 toll highway. However, because we have privacy laws and people still basically get to force respect from the government around here (via the courts sometimes), you can purchase a transponder with cash, without identification, and when the transponder is detected by the oncoming overhead scanners, the cameras are NOT turned on for your privacy.

      When your transponder is running low on currency (it is deducted from your numbered account with each trip), you can go refill it at any 407 booth, again with cash.

      Wow, huh?

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    41. Re:RFID tracking by raind · · Score: 1

      Was just wondering why video cameras aren't built into every car, constantly recording and being written over each day. For instance yesterday a road crew found 2 bodies on side of highway, imagine if it would have been captured. Imagine the myspace videos being made. Not to mention accidents, auto theft, etc. Wait - think I have a idea.

      --
      Get up!
    42. Re:RFID tracking by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      if your car was at the scene of the crime you're responsible for the fine.

      definitely will depend on local laws, (And this is not legal advice.)
      My experience in AZ is different:
      1)that your not responsible until you acknowledge notification (so if you just throw away the mail. and you, and nobody signs a certified letter on your behalf, and you never contact anyone thus acknowledging receipt, then no responsibility.)
        living in the middle of no-where AZ, this was the end of my personal experience.
      2) Once you have been legally served, now as a citizen notified of a crime, I think you are legally required to truthfully give all details to the authorities. They (in AZ) will send you a picture of the driver. if that is un-identifiable it is a easy win. If it matches your drivers license photo, it is a easy loss. If you truthfully testify against the person in the photo, again your not it. If you lie, your opening yourself up to some very serious crime, to get out of a relatively small fee.
    43. Re:RFID tracking by DrSkwid · · Score: 1
      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    44. Re:RFID tracking by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      There's a small problem with this. I don't know about British license plates, but here in the USA, most of them are made out of aluminum now. So your magnet idea won't work. You might be able to put a sheet of steel behind the license plate, but the peelable magnets usually aren't strong enough to stick through something as thick as a license plate (esp. with raised characters) onto something behind it. I have some on my refrigerator, and they're utterly useless for sticking anything to the fridge; they can only hold themselves up.

    45. Re:RFID tracking by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Because if they actually ticketed everyone that broke the speed limit law, government would finally be forced to raise speed limits... especially since Australia is likely in the same spot as the US; illegally setting limits lower than dictated by civil engineers for the purpose of raising revenue and pushing more draconion measures on drivers.

      Nope. It's all good in Australia, or at least in Victoria where I live. I do a fair bit of driving and have never been particularly concerned with speed limits being low. In fact more to the contrary... there are a few spots in my regular travels which I think could be a bit slower. Maybe a few of the freeways could have the speed bumped up from 100 to 110, but are people seriously in that much of a hurry that they are going to throw a tantrum over it?

      Being pretty happy with the speed limits set in Australia, I hope that anyone who breaks them gets caught. Any money the big bad government doesn't get through fines, gambling taxes, etc, they'll get through another means that will probably come out of my pocket!

      Over Easter, the state of New South Wales apparently had record numbers of police out on the roads, and scored their equal lowest road related death toll ever - zero. That may well be a statistical anomaly, but human nature being what it is, you're much more likely to speed if you think you'll get away with it than if you can be pretty sure that you won't, so I think people driving a little bit slower might have been a contributing factor in the low road death toll.
    46. Re:RFID tracking by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Speeding does not cause accidents. Lowering speed limits below what people would drive without them raises accident rates. Perhaps the down under has saner laws, but here in the US driver violations are seen as revenue, not safety issues. So even thought the proven safest limit is set by following the 85th percentile rule, most roads in the US are set far lower.

      The notion that slower is safer is simply not true. It would seem to be common sense, but humans and common sense have a pretty poor record. It was also once common sense that the earth was flat and that the universe revolved around the Earth.

      Please, stop relying on your common sense and anecdote to promote ideas which actually decrease overall safety.

    47. Re:RFID tracking by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the down under has saner laws, but here in the US driver violations are seen as revenue, not safety issues

      Probably we are arguing here based on living in different countries. Down here during the holiday seasons (Christmas, Easter), the various states will tend to double the demerit points (you have 12 on your license and lose them for various offences - lose them all and you lose your license. You get the points back after 3 years or something) rather than increased fines. They tried increasing fines but there was the big 'revenue raising' outcry, which was probably a fair call. I think the only people who claim it is revenue raising here are the people who continuously get caught and are just whining.

      I'm not sure if it's true now, but a while back Australia was reported as having one of the oldest car fleets in the western world, which may well be a contributing factor to the decision as to what speed limits to set. If you can be reasonably sure that all cars on the road are in good condition then a faster speed may well be acceptable.

      Maybe you also have lower wildlife hazards over where you are? We have lots of kangaroo's over here, and they are insanely stupid animals when it comes to highway traffic. The sheep and deer I have seen on the roads over here tend to just run the other way, but Kangaroos are not nearly as easy to predict, often running in front of or crashing into the side of vehicles as they pass, even at very low (20kph) speeds. If you've ever seen the difference in damage between a car hitting a large kangaroo at 160kph (~100mph) and 100kph (~60mph) you'll appreciate the difference a lower speed can make :)
    48. Re:RFID tracking by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      No, none of your arguments hold. It doesn't really matter if your cars are older, unless people in your country don't maintain them. But if it's a maintence problem, that's going to cause accidents regardless of speed. If you maintain your cars, speeding DOESN'T increase accident rates. In the US, only 2.2% of all accidents are caused by speeding. The rest are caused by other things; not paying attention, DUI, etc. Changing speed limits has no effect on whether or not people pay attention or drive under the influence, so there's little room for argument there.

      Regarding wildlife, we have that here as well. Deer or moose do run out, sometimes even bears. Again, speed is of little matter here, more important is to be paying attention so you don't hit the animal at all.

      Also, I'd be suprised if the down under varied in accident rates when comparing urban areas to rural areas. Urban areas have more accidents... but that's just because there are more cars in those areas.

      Of course no one is saying floor it over every road. What I am saying is that most people are reasonable and will drive reasonablly. That's one reason speed limits don't make a difference; if they are set too low (which in the US they almost always are), people ignore them anyway because their experience has told them they can safely travel at a given speed.

      Limits that are too low cause problems because some people will always try to follow the law; a car going 65, which is the speed limit for many highways, on a section of road where the majority of traffic is going 75, the SLOWER car is six times more likely to be in an accident. That's why the limit (if you MUST have a limit) should be set by figuring out what the 85th percentile is doing. You mostly eliminate speed differences, and roads are safer overall.

      A crackdown is likely to lead to backlash; after all, we're not talking about morality here, we're talking about an arbitrary number. If people aren't obeying it, the number is not valid. That's actually true of any law. The only reason reason to keep a law most are violating is if the law favors a majority over a minority (such as not letting blacks vote.. blacks have the right to vote, and there's no reasonable reason to take that right away).

    49. Re:RFID tracking by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Limits that are too low cause problems because some people will always try to follow the law; a car going 65, which is the speed limit for many highways, on a section of road where the majority of traffic is going 75, the SLOWER car is six times more likely to be in an accident. That's why the limit (if you MUST have a limit) should be set by figuring out what the 85th percentile is doing. You mostly eliminate speed differences, and roads are safer overall.

      So... if the policing of speed limits is thorough enough (eg not just when a police office happens to be looking your way, but every time), everyone will do 65 and the problem of speed differences between drivers will be solved too. The difference in pollution output between 75 and 65 is quite a bit, so everyone wins, except for people who are in a hurry, and they are the biggest problem on the roads anyway in terms of risk taking (overtaking when there isn't a guaranteed safe passage etc)
    50. Re:RFID tracking by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Or, you could just let free people exercise their freedom, instead of trying to control people by implementing a police state. Really, what harm is it if speeding doesn't cause more accidents to let people go faster?

      Oh, pollution you mentioned. Well we could cut down on that too by saying your TV can only be a certain size, you can only own one computer, you can only buy so much food. But then again you're heading to a police state.

      If that's what you want, that's fine, but you should know they already exist. Perhaps you'd be happier in China?

  7. I Posted About This by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1, Funny

    Extensively, on /. a couple of years back - with relevant links. Naturally, I was "troll modded" to -1, while also growing a flaming trail of replies, some dozen long.

    I'd like to see MedicatedDad's post to the front page as vindication, but it IS April 1st...

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
    1. Re:I Posted About This by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Good going, Slashdot freakshow. Two downmods of a relevant comment by a 3-digit UID - who was posting here on his Coleco Adam - and no replies.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    2. Re:I Posted About This by BlastQuake · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, Next year World of Warcraft:Molten Core will come out for the Colecovision!

      --
      "What use is power to the Keeps of Balance?" -Disnt of Nightmare LpMud
    3. Re:I Posted About This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I see two problems that led to the mod you're whining about.

      1) you think people care about your opinion when they don't

      2) you think people want to hear you bitch about things, when it should be obvious they don't

      As to your "3-digit UID", no one cares about that either, and frankly, you should already be aware of points 1 and 2 because of your UID, so your bellyaching is even less tolerated.

  8. Tin Foil Hats!!! by muindaur · · Score: 1

    Time to break out the tin foil hats so they can't read my tire pressures.

    1. Re:Tin Foil Hats!!! by sskagent · · Score: 1

      I think basically this will call for tin tires to block our cars from sending signals.

    2. Re:Tin Foil Hats!!! by dfm3 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Time to break out the tin foil hats so they can't read my tire pressures.

      Um, don't you mean tin foil rims?

    3. Re:Tin Foil Hats!!! by Hatta · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or tin foil hub caps.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Tin Foil Hats!!! by muindaur · · Score: 1

      But tin foil hats work for everything.

  9. OMG, ponies! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, where's my tinfoil hat?

  10. Slashdotted? by wattrlz · · Score: 1

    ... or hoax? Only time will tell.

    1. Re:Slashdotted? by GeigerBC · · Score: 1

      The article itself exists, I got to it before it was Slashdotted. Is the article a hoax? I am unsure.

  11. Cheney Holds Congress As Hostage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    and threatens to nuke Canada.

    News At 11.

  12. Hmmm.... by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful
    How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby?

    Outside of Lebanon, I don't see this as being a huge concern. (And calling it a "privacy" issue seems a bit of an understatement.) The local governments aren't sufficiently motivated to fill potholes, let alone install IEDs specifically targeted at me.

    1. Re:Hmmm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Assuming you live some place like I do, you're right: spend $10,000 to fix some potholes by filling them in with that patch stuff that comes out in two days? No.

      Spend several million dollars on a surveillance program so that they can track drivers and charge them extra taxes for daring to use the roads instead of the frequently late, often overcrowded, and incredibly slow public transportation? Hell yes!

      (Spending said money on improving public transportation so people might use it? Hell no!)

    2. Re:Hmmm.... by New_Age_Reform_Act · · Score: 0

      Your description smells like the same place that I do.

      Hint: same city as The Soldier Field and Wrigley Field.

      --
      "The New Age. The New Beginning."
    3. Re:Hmmm.... by 6Yankee · · Score: 1

      The local governments aren't sufficiently motivated to fill potholes, let alone install IEDs specifically targeted at me.

      But that's where the potholes come from!!!!!

    4. Re:Hmmm.... by bcattwoo · · Score: 1

      Outside of Lebanon, I don't see this as being a huge concern. (And calling it a "privacy" issue seems a bit of an understatement.) The local governments aren't sufficiently motivated to fill potholes, let alone install IEDs specifically targeted at me. Yeah, and for the 99.999% of us that don't normally travel with armed guards and live in gated compounds, the government (or anybody else who takes an interest) has much simpler avenues available for tracking and assassination.

      You can be sure that if the government were to mandate encryption on the basis of reducing the IED threat, folks would be on here complaining about "security theatre", etc.
  13. An easier solution... by porkmusket · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Remove the sensors and ignore the warning light. It's how I do things when I've got the winter wheels on, because I didn't feel like spending $400 for another set of sensors.

    1. Re:An easier solution... by billsf · · Score: 1

      Its not clear if you could remove the sensor without damaging the tyre. The RFID cure all, the magnetron, seems safer to the tyre, but not to somebody that doesn't know what he's doing. They are a bit large to place in the nuker, so bringing the oven, interlocks defeated, to the tyre would be required.

    2. Re:An easier solution... by porkmusket · · Score: 1

      At least on my Subaru, it is clear and is easily removable. The sensor is part of the valve stem.

  14. The "solution" is not so simple. by hedronist · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."

    Unfortunately, there is a major difference here: failure to encrypt keyless entry resulted in stolen cars (something which caught people's attention and pissed them off), whereas you'll never even notice that your TPMS isn't encrypted. People are incredibly lazy and only take action when they perceive a threat to their person or property. Liberty? As Dick Cheney would say, "So?"

    I'll bet adding encryption would cost the manufacturers $0.01 per tire (or some equally trivial amount), which they will claim will ruin them. Nobody else (except for a bunch of whiny, personal liberty freaks) will care about this and it will quietly become ubiquitous.

    Besides, if you aren't doing anything illegal, why should you care who takes note of your comings and goings. We're here to help you and we certainly can't do that unless we know where you are ... at all times ...

    1. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by John+Whitley · · Score: 2, Interesting

      People are incredibly lazy and only take action when they perceive a threat to their person or property. Liberty? While I understand your frustration, I think it's ultimately misleading to tag people as "lazy" here. Misleading precisely because I tend to agree with you: most folk are "lazy", but that the term is so loaded with negative connotation that it stops further inquiry. Human beings are likey terribly poorly adapted to understanding and reacting to these kinds of threats. Many modern threats are really pretty damn abstract (to an essentially hunter-gatherer mind, anyhow) and require a fair bit of abstract thinking, education, and information to grasp. This presents a huge social risk to be managed: if many modern threats, incidental or deliberate, are difficult for people to properly assess.. our decisions as a society will be distorted dangerously as a result.

      I've recently seen reference to work discussing threat perception along these lines, but unfortunately quick searches aren't dredging it up right now. Handy references, anyone?
    2. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The solution is even easier than encryption. Just don't broadcast a unique identifier!

      In this case there's no reason for each tire pressure sensor to be broadcasting one. All they need to do is chirp back the pressure inside the tire. That's it. Give them enough power to hit a receiver located in the wheel (which might be 4-6" away in a very large tire, probably a lot closer than that, and it's all inside the steel-belted tire) and call it a day. Unless you are playing Ben Hur, you're not going to get close enough to another car's tires for it to become a problem -- use a high frequency and you're going to get a substantial bit of attenuation via the tire itself, and then you're decreasing as the square of the distance through free space. You're never going to have more than one valve-stem sensor per wheel-mounted receiver, so why bother with it?

      If you really do need a weak form of identification, rather than hardcoding a UID, it would be pretty trivial to have each sensor randomly choose a number from a range such that the chance of collisions was low (deriving the randomness from resistor noise or by oversampling whatever analog sensor they use to determine pressure) and reset periodically or each time the car is started. That eliminates the problem of having to coordinate UIDs and prevent duplicates (cf. the cheap Bluetooth transceivers that caused problems because their MAC-ish addresses were all zeros). Every unit can be completely identical.

      On further consideration, I can't really imagine why the designers of the TPMS would have given each sensor a UID (especially since it would probably cause confusion when you rotate tires, if the car's computer tracks them) ... making me wonder if this is just an elaborate 4/1 hoax.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    3. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in the automotive OEM business and you have some great ideas for making a system that works really well. The only problem is cost.

      First of all, you have to realize that this is a government mandated system so basically car companies do not like the fact that they are being forced to include this and they will design it only to meet the minimum design requirements. So, when this system is designed the main idea is to reduce cost without reducing quality. So if you have a wheel mounted receiver in every wheel that's 4 receivers with 4 separate wiring harnesses run to them. That is a lot of unneeded cost being added to the system.

      The easiest and cheapest method of doing this is to have one receiver hopefully one of them that is already needed for other frequency related items like your keys. The TPMS sender sends out a unique identifier to distinguish which tire is flat. So on some of the higher end vehicles the computer that checks the TPMS signals can also inform the customer which tire is flat and what pressure they are currently at. Yes, this causes a problem with rotating tires but most of the customers that drive higher end vehicles probably go to a dealer which can reconfigure the system to know which tire is which. So, you couple this desire with the cost and also include the fact that each car uses that same TPMS system then you have the system that meets those requirements.

      Believe it or not automotive companies spend a LOT of time debating on how to design a system that meets all of their needs and usually they achieve that. It's just that their desires for a system usually clash with the ideas that many engineers like yourself come up with.

    4. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by UnderCoverPenguin · · Score: 1

      Having worked on wireless TPM systems, I can say that operators of vehicle fleets (which include rental companies) want the TPMS sensor to send out an unique ID. This helps them with their record keeping.

      Also, even in systems that do use encryption, such as keyless entry systems, the unique ID is sent out unencrypted. (Yes, I have worked on these systems, too)

      --
      Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
    5. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      YET even better.

      Don't pretend you need your tire pressure monitor to be networked. It's just an added expense for nothing.

      People know their tire pressures are not correct. Unless this device can FILL it up for them the little blinking light isn't worth the added cost or security loss.

      Even if there is no unique identifier their is still the potential to hack it. Maybe use it as a means to trick unsuspecting drivers into pulling over and ambushing them.

      How about somebody makes decent tires that don't wear out and lose air so easily, chances are the tire design is mostly at fault. Adding wireless gadgets to a flawed idea doesn't really make it better.

      Instead, buy those mechanical tire caps from your local auto shop or even walmart. No batteries, GREEN for FULL ... RED for slack.

      How is a wireless tire pressure sensor so much better ? People who are so oblivious they can't occasionally glance at their external tire cap shouldn't be mandating everyone's car use either.

      The current crop of cars are such pathetic jokes... domestic and imports. While an effort to keep tires at proper inflation is a good idea since it saves gas, I don't think is the way.

      Something like a new more automated maintenance model would be far more beneficial for end users and mechanics alike.

      Does this tire pressure sensor make tires or tire service more expensive also ?

    6. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by name_already_taken · · Score: 1

      How is a wireless tire pressure sensor so much better ?

      How about the situation where a tire fails while driving? You run over a sharp object and puncture the tire, but don't notice it. I once had a tire deflate completely while driving - the tire was basically loose on the rim, but it really didn't make much difference in how the car drove at low speeds. Had I then driven at high speeds it could have been disastrous. On long trips in particular TPMS could be life-saving.

      When I've been out walking in the downtown area I've heard at least two tires hissing in traffic and I don't think the drivers knew it was happening.

      I check my tire pressures every week as I get better fuel economy with the tires pumped up to the maximum pressure, and the car handles better (my car has an ESP system - the warning light flashes a lot less with the tires at maximum pressure, indicating that there is less slip).

      --
      Putting moderation advice in your .sig lowers your karma!
    7. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by d3cr33p · · Score: 1

      "Unless you are playing Ben Hur, you're not going to get close enough to another car's tires for it to become a problem -"

      Oh man, you should drive in on 690 into Syrcause, NY at rush hour. I am not sure if it is something in the water, or fumes from the chem spill they call a lake, or what, but Ben would have cried like a baby having to deal with these people! 4-6"? Not a problem.

    8. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well because the TPMS doesn't have a transceiver in each wheel well.
      Why you ask? COST!!!
      The TPMS uses the same receiver as the Remote Keyless entry. So the system needs to know which tire is low to tell the sheep, errr driver which tire to blankly stare at, as if that will magically inflate it.

      (yes I design systems like this in the Auto industry)

    9. Re:The "solution" is not so simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about pickups with dual tires on the real axle? RV's with the same or multiple rear axles? Dump trucks, big rigs, etc.

      All of these would have multiple sensors located in close proximity to each other.

  15. President authorizes warrentless tire tapping... by Digestromath · · Score: 5, Funny
    In the War on Terrorism, the president in his finite capacity for wisdom has authorized any government agency, with at least 3 letters in its acronym, to engage in acts of tire tapping without the need for endless judicial oversite.

    The government won't use this information to track you down to that seedy little motel on the side of route 9, where you cavort with no less than 3 women other than your wife. We only care about catching bad guys. Your wife however...

    If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear but fear itself.

  16. Choose your role models carefully by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    KeeLoq has been cracked recently. The wireless access control system is used in vehicles built by Chrysler, Daewoo, Fiat, General Motors, Honda, Toyota (Lexus), Volvo, Volkswagen and Jaguar. All it takes to get access is to record two messages, which can be done from up to 300 feet away. http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/105772

  17. April fools! by sprins · · Score: 1

    Of course this is an April fools joke. The VIN isn't included in the radio signals of the TPMS sensors!

    1. Re:April fools! by hpa · · Score: 1

      No, but there is a vehicle-unique TPMS ID.

    2. Re:April fools! by afaik_ianal · · Score: 1

      Err - isn't it a tyre unique ID? If I get new tyres, surely I won't need to have them specially coded to my car :-/.

    3. Re:April fools! by warsql · · Score: 1

      Just make sure you pay cash.

      --
      878659 - yep its prime.
    4. Re:April fools! by MirthScout · · Score: 1

      No it is a TPMS device unique ID. Four such devices come with your new car; one mounted inside each tire. If you buy new tires the TPMS devices mounted in your old tires are moved to the new tires.

  18. Alternatively... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do.


    Or get rid of the nanny state law requiring TPMS. They give drivers a false sense of security regarding their tires, help them to justify paying even less attention to the state of their cars and required maintenance, cost everyone money (even if they don't want one), add unsprung weight to the vehicle, and apparently cause security issues.

    Good 'ole "Know what's best for its citizens - especially when reacting to a few tragic incidents that catch the media's eye" federal government.
    1. Re:Alternatively... by kent_eh · · Score: 1

      Or get rid of the nanny state law requiring TPMS. They give drivers a false sense of security regarding their tires, help them to justify paying even less attention to the state of their cars and required maintenance, Oh sure, now my mod points expire...
      15 years ago, when I was pulling wrenches, I was amazed at how oblivious most people are to basic preventative maintainence.
      I can't count how many engines I've seen where it takes 2 liters of oil to get up to the add oil line on the dipstick.
      Or how many tires I've seen at less than 10 PSI.

      I've always said a basic maintainence test should be part of the driver's licensing testing process.

      --

      ---
      "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
  19. Man arrested for driving while underinflated! by duffetta · · Score: 1

    Sorry, officer, I didn't realize that my tires were underinflated.

  20. Can we get a car analogy for this? by Digestromath · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm having trouble grasping the concepts, can someone put it into a nice analogy using cars? What... wait... damnit.

  21. Okay, now this pisses me off. by ElGanzoLoco · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    How about an explosive device that sets itself off when the right vehicle passes nearby?

    Okay, so there are probably some actual privacy issues arising from being able to track passing vehicles remotely, but come on, that comment above is so over the top it's not even funny.

    The bearded men with the funny accent are not out to get you. The black helicopters are not after you, or your car, or your gun(s). And officials / VIPs actually at risk of being blown up by an IED - not that I know any off the top of my head - would have the radio signal jammed anyways.

    Grow. The. Fuck. Up. Seriously.

    (okay, or maybe it's april fools, and I'm drunk and didn't note the sarcasm / joke in the ferkin' summary)

    --
    Hello! I'm a disaster waiting to happen!
    1. Re:Okay, now this pisses me off. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dunno, compared to the explody liquids on airplanes nonsense, that threat almost makes sense.

    2. Re:Okay, now this pisses me off. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No, but they are after Humvees with military personnel that coincidentally, have tires.

      Just sayin'

      Personally, I want all cars to have pressure sensors and an auto fill for the tire. We would use about 20% less gas with properly inflated tires.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Okay, now this pisses me off. by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Yes, but... wouldn't this make sense to implement in Iraq (or somewhere else) where the only "recent" cars are ones driven by Imperial Troops?

  22. Bubbling up from the lower levels by Apotsy · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Here's a guy posting about a very similar subject on this site a while ago:

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=05/04/02/2351243&cid=12123337&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=nested Not sure how many people took it seriously at the time, but it sounds like it's getting more and more towards mainstream awareness, especially with this new system. 20 years from now, could a person move around at all, on foot or otherwise, without the powers that be knowing about it?
    1. Re:Bubbling up from the lower levels by wbtittle · · Score: 1

      It was posted on April 2 ....

      Wait...

      --
      God: "I don't leave footprints!"
  23. ABS Sensor by kd5ujz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am not sure about the new mandate ( assuming its not an April fools joke), but the TPS sensor on my work car (2001 Alero) is the same sensor used for the anti-lock brakes. The ABS computer reads the ABS sensors, and any sensor that is spinning faster than the other three tires is assumed to be a flat tire ( lower diameter causes higher RPMs for a given surface speed).

    --
    -William
    God is everything science has yet to explain.
    1. Re:ABS Sensor by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      I believe that kind of TPS/ABS is signalled over plain old wiring inside the car, no RFID or code is broadcast.

    2. Re:ABS Sensor by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      That's not how it works on my new car - it reports actual tire pressure in psi.

    3. Re:ABS Sensor by Bombria · · Score: 2, Funny

      I just want to know what the cover sheet for all those TPS reports is going to look like.

    4. Re:ABS Sensor by geedra · · Score: 1

      On the new Evo X, the sensor is part of the special TPS-equipped valve stem. I haven't read up on the details, but there's no way that data is being transmitted 100% over a wired connection.

    5. Re:ABS Sensor by Mr.+Roadkill · · Score: 1

      On the new Evo X, the sensor is part of the special TPS-equipped valve stem. I haven't read up on the details, but there's no way that data is being transmitted 100% over a wired connection.
      You should have read your manual more carefully, then. Every 300 metres you need to either switch between forward and reverse OR take off all four wheels and manually re-wind the cable spools.
    6. Re:ABS Sensor by scatters · · Score: 1

      There are (at least) two types of TPMS in use. One has a sensor/transmitter mounted inside the wheel at the location of the valve stem, the other measures and compares the average rpm of each wheel. I guess the advantage of the first method is that it provides instantaneous measurements, but it requires that you purchase new sensors (about $75 each, at least for my car) if you want to run different wheels for summer and winter. It also works off of absolute pressure, so when pressure drops below x psi, the on-board computer flags an alert. The second method requires more time to identify a low-pressure tire and has to take into account different rotational speeds due to cornering, etc., but has the benefit of being installed on the car rather than the tire and also doesn't need batteries. Oh, and it isn't a privacy concern, or a remote bomb detonation trigger, or a way for the man to give you a ticket, or... Holy crap! I'm just off out to remove my TPMS...

      --
      A One that isn't cold, is scarcely a One at all.
    7. Re:ABS Sensor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what about a really sharp turn? oh wait, 01 alero... nevermind!

  24. Identification does not need VIN by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

    All you need is to be able to track the tyre ids.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Identification does not need VIN by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That is not "identification." If I were to drive past a sensor that had no prior knowledge of me, there is absolutely no way they would know who I am. The "identification" part takes place elsewhere, and this could, at most, be used for tracking.

  25. Re:President authorizes warrentless tire tapping.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    You go home after work (or class, whatever your current activity in life) and find the FBI (at least three letters, right?) digging through your things, with no warrant. You confront them, only to be told that they're just checking for terrorist affiliation. You have none. After a while, they leave. But they've seen every intimate corner of your physical belongings -- without your consent or a judge's authorization, and especially not without cause.

    The point of these growing searches is not because the government wants to be able to track the bad guys in this 'age' of increasing terrorism. It's because they want the public to be so afraid, and using terrorism as an excuse works well, that they can simply look through everyone's life at any time. Oh, and in case you haven't realized, everyone is now suspect of terrorism.

    Sure they won't use the information to track you down to that little motel off route nine. Well, they might, but they might look the other way past that point. But they may use the information to see where you enter and exit the Interstate (or other monitored road) and correlate the data with nearby 'terrorist' suspects and 'hideouts.' You know, the bar where a government employee happens to stop off for a beer with a couple friends, who work at different places, after work, to have a beer and complain about their day. Jut your luck, that one guy was reported as expressing violent intent. He was quite vocal. Not the one who reported him no longer goes to that bar, and said that several other patrons agreed with him. Now they are all on a watch list. And the bar just so happens to be across from that motel with the women you mentioned. And Rte. 9 is not a monitored road.

    It is an extreme example. But if we're in a society that can have an Air Force Captain charged with terroristic acts for buying her ten-year-old son a flight simulator program because the cashier at the local Circuit City is paranoid of terrorism thanks to media fear mongering, then anything is possible to some extent.

  26. Re:Get outta town by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am guarnateed totally 100% anonymity anywhere I go in public! It's a guarnateed right in the USA Constitution. Don't give me any of this "I can see you" bS!!!!!!!! Being seen and identified by a person or agent of the government on the street is one thing - that's how its been for thousands of years.

    Having every movement of every person on the street automatically recorded, indexed and cataloged into nationwide databases without the any human intervention is a completely different matter - that's a recipe for totalitarianism.

    Right now, we are rapidly barreling down the road from how its been for thousands of years to the ultimate totalitarian state with very little good to show for it beyond political rhetoric.
  27. problems going away by alxkit · · Score: 0

    "If they add functionality to encrypt the communication channel, the problem will go away."

    no it will not. someone will always have a key. if a bomb is REALLY meant to go off - it will.

  28. Forget about encryption by mikkl666 · · Score: 1

    Nice idea to go for encryption, but it turns out that the most popular keyless lock system was hacked just a couple of days ago...

  29. Probably not a 4/1 story. by gardyloo · · Score: 3, Informative
    Here (at the end of this post) is the text of the applicable document summarizing the TREAD act.
    http://www.tireindustry.org/pdf/TREAD_Act_Summary.pdf

        Looks to me that no one is requiring continual monitoring (and reporting) of tires' conditions; only when the tire pressure falls below 25% of recommended cold pressure is a signal required to be sent (and I see nothing about being able to tell which car in a fleet has the problem from outside the car itself).

        Finally, article summary should say "all NEW vehicles sold in the US" require the system, not "all vehicles sold in the US".

    The final rule was published June 5, 2002. Unfortunately NHTSA
    proposed that if a vehicle is using a direct system (with sensors in each
    tire sending a signal to the dashboard) the TPMS does not have to trigger
    until the tire is 25 percent below the recommended cold psi. An indirect
    TPMS (that runs off the anti-lock braking system) does not have to
    trigger until the tire is 30 percent below the recommended cold psi for
    that tire. TIA is strongly opposed to NHTSA's supposed "safety"
    regulation which in effect allows the motoring public to drive on severely
    underinflated tires. TIA has supported a petition that NHTSA mandate
    reserve inflation pressure in tires to offset the TPMS rule. [See letter to
    NHTSA supporting petition.]
    1. Re:Probably not a 4/1 story. by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      Thats OK, they'll just track your cellphone instead.

    2. Re:Probably not a 4/1 story. by bwy · · Score: 1

      Why should this be a law? All this does is make cars more expensive which has the effect of making cars less affordable for lower income folks. Personally, I find the system annoying. My wife's new CRV has has the light come on twice now and get stuck and both times I've checked the tire pressure and it has been fine. The dealer can't seem to fix it.

      What will the next new law be? Heated leather seats are mandatory? So much for this freedom thing I hear so much about.

    3. Re:Probably not a 4/1 story. by adolf · · Score: 1

      Why? Because a few people had a problem with Ford using Firestone's Rollove^H^H^H^H^H^H^HDiscoverer tires on their Explorer SUV.

      Except, at the end of the day, the problem was really all about people driving with overloaded vehicles on underinflated tires. And however foolish this is (it's all because people don't fucking pay attention to the manner in which they operate and maintain their death machines), the guffaw cost Ford, Firestone, and the government (and thus the People) a lot of money.

      In direct response to this, recommended tire inflation pressures have gone up (door jamb placard in a typical American sedan used to say 30 or 32PSI; it is now at least 35PSI). And, it seems, the car is required now to let the driver know when a tire is 25 or 30% underinflated.

      And why? Simple: For the same reason that we have seat belts, air bags, and crash tests: It's cheaper this way. Sure, the tires wear out faster. And it's not as comfortable. And it doesn't handle as well.

      But it saves money, and that's the bottom line,

  30. TPS Report Cover Sheet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't you get the memo...?

  31. I'm starting to like... by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

    my mountain bike more and more. At least until they mandate TPMS in bicycles, too...sigh.

    --
    MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  32. plausibly deniable skullduggery by spacefiddle · · Score: 1

    i see three levels of issue here - the first one is, assuming no one reads the data who isn't "supposed to," and no one who is supposed to ever abuses that information access, what are the privacy implications?

    Secondly, what if the authorized yet fallible humans with access to this data abuse it?

    Thirdly, and the one that IMHO needs to be addressed first, is when those who are unauthorized are able to access the information. Not just for the obvious reasons: hacking this info may or may not be easy/feasible/desirable/whatever. But because now those mere-mortal humans who would be authorized and accountable, and already know the system, would be able to not just abuse that information, but leave no trail. Or blame ebil terrists and h4x0rs for it, even better.

    Consider: yes, there could be a physical threat, but i'm more worried about yet another vector of information harvesting and tracking. Hello, Mr. Political Dissident, where do you drive? With whom do you associate? How long were you parked there? With sufficient coverage, can i track you in real time like an involuntary GPS?

    If employees with access would poke through candidates' passport files, what would they try to get away with THIS in place? (That sound you hear is the Secret Service twitching. I imagine any and all official gummint vehicles have this system neutered - or at least i would HOPE so!)

    Bad enough i have to deal with people tracking me online. There is no benefit and no excuse to having this information broadcast in the clear. Bottom line, any system that's approved and authorized to get this info could still get it (and whether we'd want that is another debate) - but don't force me to make it easy and unaccountable.

  33. The article missed something by TwoStep · · Score: 1

    There are 2 main reasons you want properly inflated tires:
    1) Safety (mentioned in the article)
    2) Fuel economy. Proper tire pressure can result in a 5-10% increase in MPG.

    --
    There are 10 different types of people in this world... those who understand binary, and those who don't.
  34. Re:President authorizes warrentless tire tapping.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, and in case you haven't realized, everyone is now suspect of terrorism.

    That's OK, all adult men have been suspected pedophiles for years. Adding potential terrorist to the list doesn't really phase me.

  35. Encryption may not help. by argent · · Score: 1

    Encryption will allow you to keep them from knowing what your tire pressure is, but you'd need to have the signal anonymized as well to keep someone from fingerprinting it.

    1. Re:Encryption may not help. by Strider- · · Score: 1

      Never mind that nice, big 10"x6"? metal plate on both the front of the vehicle with a unique identifier string on it... why bother with this RFID crap when you can just read the plates?

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    2. Re:Encryption may not help. by argent · · Score: 1

      Those plates do not tend to be easy for a small, low power electronic device to read and process.

      I've worked on trackside sensors in the railroad industry, and we found the most reliable way to recognize a train was by measuring the timing of the wheels as the passed the sensor. Optical scanners would have been a last resort. The union wouldn't let us put transponders on the trains, or we'd have done that.

      Having every car transmitting a unique easily-fingerprinted signal? That'd make things so easy. It doesn't matter if you can't decode it, there has to be *some* preamble that tells the receiver that it's getting a signal and what to expect, and unless there's a lot of effort put into anonymizing as well as encrypting the preamble that by itself would give you a lot of info.

      Remember, too, these sensors have to be low power and cheap.

      For example, Freescale's MPXY8300 has 16k of Flash memory, and 512 *bytes* of RAM, and runs at 8 MHz. What kind of crypto are you going to use on that?

  36. Re:Get outta town by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

    Gee chuck, maybe you oughta switch to decaf, what? You're paranoid. I'm gonna gitcha! hahaha haha aha ha LOL! Why would I worry about you?
    You aren't smart enough to ever end up in a position to abuse the system.
  37. Shut up your car! by billcopc · · Score: 1

    I see a very simple solution to this:

    1. Remove tires
    2. Smash TPMS
    3. Mail smashed TPMS pieces to automaker, lawmaker, and those asshats at the NHTSA
    4. ???
    5. Profit!?

    My view is if drivers are too retarded to perform basic maintenance like checking their tire pressure and oil dips, they shouldn't be allowed to operate a vehicle. We didn't use to have so many road problems back when there were fewer people on the road. Someone lowered the barriers to entry and now we've got millions of idiots driving 3-ton battering rams.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  38. Hamsters by Pseudonymus+Bosch · · Score: 2, Informative

    Getting groceries home will be a bitch tho...

    Didn't hamsters solve that by carrying food in their cheeks?

    --
    __
    Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
    GW Bu
  39. How the new TPMS sensors work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Basically, the new mandated TPMS sensors are all direct sensors. These sensors have been mandated as of the 2007 model year on all cars sold in the US. (There are a large number of cars sold in Canada that use this system too, but it is not mandated in Canada). Indirect systems (the ones that use the ABS sensors) are not allowed under the mandate as they were deemed too inaccurate. The TPM system is mandated to notify the driver once there is a 25% loss of pressure from nominal from the tire. Many systems also indicate a high pressure warning also.

    Most car companies have been developing the technology for over a decade. GM started in the mid 90's on the corvette.

    Most systems use a pressure sensor internally mounted to the rim on the valve stem. The valve stem acts as the antenna for the transmitter. (Look for cars with aluminum coloured valve stems, these are TPMS equiped vehicles.) The transmitter will transmit at the same frequency as your key FOB. This allows the car companies to minimize the amount of extra equipment required for the system. Most systems probably only require the sensors and a reprogramming of the requisit computers in the car.

    Pay close attention to the shop that changes your tires. Many shops are poorly trained in dealing with TPMS sensors and tell many lies about the systems as they don't understand how they work.

    The sensors typically operate under a pretty simple algorithm. Basically, when the car is stationary the sensors will transmit every hour. If the car starts moving above a certain speed they sensors will start to transmit every minute. If the pressure in the tire suddenly changes more then a certain amount, the sensor will transmit the new pressure immeditatly. Each sensor has a unique ID to permit the computer to identify which corresponds to which pressure. The car's computer will be programmed to listen for these transimssions. Should the car fail to receive a transmission from a specifc tire over a certain period of time, then the computer will indicate there is a malfunction of the system.

    Because the sensors have unique IDs it is typically required to relearn the sensor locations after a tire rotation. There are many different releasern procedures. You can set the car into learn mode and triger each sensor by letting air you of the tires or you can use a specific TPMS tool to triger the sensors using a LF magnetic field.

    These systems are all pretty straight forward once you know how they work. Most people are afraid of new technology, but in most respects this is pretty simple stuff that any modern mechanic should have no problem working with.

  40. Not continual transmission .. by aspeer · · Score: 1

    As has been noted some of these systems work without wireless transmission - by measuring minute differences in tyre rotation speed.

    Some work by sending a warning only when the tyre pressure falls below a certain level (28psi generally).

    Even the high-end devices that transmit the exact tyre pressure to a central console will not be transmitting continually - smart ones will only transmit either when the pressure changes, or at a fixed polling interval.

    So triggering an IED when a particular car drives past ? Not likely - only if you are unlucky enough for one of the sensors to be transmitting at the exact time the car drives past.

    Same goes for monitoring movement of an individual car - the chances of the pressure sensor transmitting at the exact time it drives over/past a sensor is pretty remote.

  41. Better solution by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

    The cheapest way to do tire pressure monitoring is not to add RF hardware and sensors to the wheels, but to use passive pressure monitoring with the existing breaking/traction control system. I used to work with some guys that did braking systems, and this is fairly do-able. I'm not sure if it meets all the federal requirements though. If you want to know if one tire is low they can probably tell without any extra hardware (flash for code does cost a few cents).

  42. oblig. Buckaroo Bonzai quote by transporter_ii · · Score: 2, Funny

    Laugh-a while you can, monkey boy!

    --
    Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
  43. Or you could be like the millions of 'mercans.... by OKCfunky · · Score: 1

    who don't have TPMS and instead have the following: 1) an older car 2) removed the sensors 3) installed different wheels and balked at paying a few hundred dollars when checking tire pressure once a month is infinitely cheaper.

  44. Possible hack... by HeadlessNotAHorseman · · Score: 1

    So if the TPMS is using RFID to transmit the unique id + tyre info, what is to stop somebody with a really high powered radio transmitter from transmitting unique id + false tyre info at the car, so that it drowns out the real signal and tricks the car into thinking the tyre pressure is too low or too high? I can just imagine some poor sap cruising down the highway when all of a sudden the car tells him that all four of his tyres have simultaneously blown out!

    --
    I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
    1. Re:Possible hack... by billcopc · · Score: 1

      I'll one-up you: how about transmitting a ton of fuzz data to DOS the entire fleet of vehicles, possibly confusing the heck out of the carputer and causing various problems.

      We've seen so many stupid consequences to seemingly benign vulnerabilities on the PC, who's to say a kid with a Pringles can couldn't brick my car from the sidewalk ?

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  45. You're just playing with semantics by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    Whether you want to call this tracking or identification is just fiddling with semantics. You could equally say that a license plate does not provide identification, just tracking. As soon as it gives a way to link to some data base then there is no difference.

    Tyre ids will be tracked by tyre vendors for insurance/warrantee purposes. Just add a license plate reader and the connection between the tyres and the license is made. Once there is a tie up between the tyre ids and the vehicle you have identification.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  46. Not good for criminals by Jaxoreth · · Score: 2, Funny

    My main concern is that some hacker kid is going to break into the traffic management network and use their monitoring systems to analyze the tire pressure on my trucks to figure out which ones are decoys and which one actually has the gold in it, at which point by manipulating the traffic signals he'll coerce it over to the right spot and blow up the street out from underneath it so it drops underground, where thieves are waiting to steal the gold.

    --
    In general, it is safe and legal to kill your children. -- POSIX Programmer's Guide
  47. Re:Get outta town by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Asses are for crapping, not screwing."

    My wife would disagree, she quite likes it once in a while.

    And you seem obsessed with "asses", are you homophobic?

    Well, if you are, then you don't need to worry because all the gay men that I know only fuck rectums, not assholes.

  48. Re:President authorizes warrentless tire tapping.. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

    I have heard the same grips and concerns since the cold war where they actually did maintain the appearance of being about to do anything at any time and apparently knew everything about anyone. Just look at the movies of that era, that is how the FBI is portrayed. Now they are portrayed like bumbling idiots who get lucky every once in a while and you have the impression that it is new for them to act like they (or even want to have) have all the answers.

    And another thing, No one was ever charged with terrorist acts for simply inquiring about a flight simulator program. A report was made and someone followed up on it. That's it, not charges, not detention, nothing. That is no different them me telling the police that I though you killed the latest missing teen. They would investigate, possibly showing up, realize you had nothing to do with it and then leave. But no one would be or was charged. If that one tidbit is an indicator of that accuracy of anything else your spouting, then your conpletely wrong just like they where 25 years ago.

  49. Re:President authorizes warrentless tire tapping.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is an extreme example. It's also exactly the same thing the JPL contractors were fighting when they were forced to submit to HSPD-12.

    So, you don't handle anything secure. Sure, you don't have any flags. But by signing an HSPD-12 waiver, you give the government carte blanche to perform the same type of surveillance on you that they can perform on civil servants. The same kind of surveillance, cross checking and monitoring that they perform on terrorism suspects...just because you let them, and despite any legislation that may be passed regarding warrant-less spying on "civilians".

  50. Run flat tires need TPMS by enosys · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The article asks why would NHTSA choose TPMS and not run-flat technology. Run-flat tires cannot be used indefinitely while uninflated or underinflated. Generally, in such situations the sidewall supports the load, and the resulting stress on the sidewall damages it, eventually leading to failure. Furthermore, you might not be able to see that the tire isn't properly inflated. In order to prevent people from driving on underinflated run-flat tires until a catastrophic failure and possible accident, TPMS is required. Oh, and run-flat tires have other disadvantages too.

    1. Re:Run flat tires need TPMS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not about flat tires, it's about fuel efficiency. Underinflated tires cause a drop in fuel efficiency, which increases polution.

    2. Re:Run flat tires need TPMS by enosys · · Score: 1

      In the US, TPMS was made mandatory due to safety concerns. In fact it only has to detect major underinflation so it's not even really useful for maintaining energy efficiency. Other places are considering making TPMS mandatory due to energy efficiency reasons.

  51. Huh? by seanadams.com · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is a big difference between tracking tires, license plates, etc. and tracking people.

    In what way is tracking a person's possessions NOT a damned effective way of tracking the person?!?!

    Do complete strangers drive your car often? So you see no need for concern until a tracking device is implanted directly into your skull?

  52. "Good Morning, Senator Smith" by Animats · · Score: 1

    The way to get this changed would be to put a roadside detector near some Washington freeway, near a programmable billboard. Make a deal with the billboard operator to buy time on demand, and, when a known car goes by, put up "Good Morning, Senator Smith".

  53. Re:President authorizes warrentless tire tapping.. by clickety6 · · Score: 1


    I think your missing the main point here... ... what is the address of that seedy little motel on the side of route 9 where you cavort with no less than 3 women other than your wife?

    --
    ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
  54. Re:President authorizes warrentless tire tapping.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Flight Sim enquiry raises terror alert

    Shortly before Christmas, the FBI issued a terror alert to beware of drivers with maps, or reference books.
    ...
    The FBI has issued a terror warning to police to look out for individuals carrying almanacs or maps, reports AP.

    The warning was sent to 18,000 officers before Christmas. Almanacs, warns the FBI, may be used "to assist with target selection and pre-operational planning." The Bureau acknowledges that there may be "legitimate recreational or commercial activities" that justify an individual carrying around a map or reference book.

    The publisher of Old Farmers Almanac has vowed to co-operate with law enforcement agencies at every level.
  55. Lic plate? by ez151 · · Score: 1

    uhhh....can't they just see your license plate to uniquely id you?

  56. Re:President authorizes warrentless tire tapping.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    by Digestromath "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear but fear itself."

    You are so right.

    F.E.A.R.

    Federal Espionage And Reconnaissance against US citizens.

    captcha: disturbs

  57. The tech is not a joke, but the story is. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The technology is not a joke, but the story is.

    The reason the batteries last so long is because the sensors only operate when the wheels are turning, and even then they only transmit on occasion, not continuously. A centripetal switch in the sensor activates it when the vehicle begins to move.

    They do not need to broadcast continuously because:

    A) Continuous monitoring in the case of sudden deflation or 'blowout' doesn't buy you any safety margin.

    B) Slow loss of pressure is just that, slow. You don't need constant updates to track that.

    They have unique codes so that the on board computer can tell which sensor is in each tire as well as which ones are on your car.

    Isn't this supposed to be a tech forum? Does anybody here actually bother to research the technology before blathering on like reactionary idiots? (err, sorry. I forgot. This is slashdot after all...)

    I have E-Z-Pass. So positionally, I am pwned already. Hey! I have license tags on both ends of the car as well. Damn. And, if I really wanted to track somebody, GPS transponders are pretty cheap now and widely available to law enforcement as well as personal use. Yeah, I could never attach one of these to your car without you knowing it.

    Take off the tin foil hats, folks. Tire pressure monitors are the least of your tracking worries.

    http://www.emarinesupplies.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1567

    http://www.raveontech.com/applications_asset_tracking.html

    http://www.zoombak.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=Vehicle%2BTracking&utm_campaign=Conv_Products

    1. Re:The tech is not a joke, but the story is. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hear, hear! Mod parent up!

  58. AngryDad Should Rename Himself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    . . . to "TinFoilHatDad who embarrasses his wife, kids, family, and friends".

    And kdawson should rename himself to "FuckingLameIdiot".

  59. Monitoring = Courteous Drivers by kcdoodle · · Score: 1

    When I was in Britain last, I noticed how nice the drivers were. They share lanes when people drift, they let people in, no one ever gets mad. Traffic generally flowed better. I thought it was just the stoic British attitude that keeps them from blowing up at each other.

    But just lately I realized, they have traffic cameras all over the place!!!
    You know how you drive when you have a cop behind you? Well, those Brits ALWAYS have a cop behind them.

    And you know what? I am not concerned with speeding or breaking the law, I would be happy to just go the speed limit, go when the light turns green and have no one blocking the intersections. If traffic would just flow, I would never have the need to break the speed limit, and then wouldn't care about traffic cams and monitoring.

    --

    - I live the greatest adventure anyone could possibly desire. - Tosk the Hunted
    1. Re:Monitoring = Courteous Drivers by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Actually its not the cameras. They are only watching for speeders anyway. Driving like that always used to be the case even before the advent of cameras, which have only really been widespread in the UK (outside of big cities like London at least) in last 15 years or so anyway.

      When I emigrated to the US from the UK about 6 years ago, it took me some adjustment to get used to the fact that most Americans don't have good manners for other road users. In the UK you can automatically expect a 'thankyou' wave if you leave a gap to let other road-users in/out. In the US its very rare to see any acknowledgement for showing consideration. Also in most American cities you need to get used to drivers that just cut you off whenever they feel like it.

      It seems there is a very widespread and selfish 'me first' attitude in the US that isn't so common in other places.

  60. NOT! an April Fools story!!! by tatman · · Score: 1

    see Tire Industry report. The report states that 100% of all new cars sold after Sept 1, 2007 must contain TPMS

    --
    I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.
  61. Non-transmitting TPMS by tcampb01 · · Score: 1

    Using transmitters is only one way to monitor tire pressure. The tire pressure changes all throughout the day based on temperature. The point of these sensors isn't to report when the pressure changes in all tires equally. They're only supposed to notice when the tire pressure changes non-uniformly (e.g. just one tire is low). They also don't report if a tire is low by a pound or two... it has to be a fairly radical difference (e.g. 10 lbs low) to get noticed (I suppose the threshold that triggers the alarm probably varies by maker)

    But the use of transmitters per each wheel turns out to be the expensive way to solve the problem. There's an another system that simply uses the rotational speed of each tire. The idea is that if a car is traveling in a straight line and one tire is low (say it has 20 lbs of pressure whereas all the other tires have 30), the rotational speed of that wheel will be different from the rest. The computer will notice this.

    It's slightly more complicated than this because wheels normally do rotate at different speeds when a car is turning, but in that case all the wheels will rotate at different speeds (not just one of them) and the computer can tell the difference.

    If you're thinking "Yes, but then you have to install a speedometer for each wheel and that would be expensive too.", then you've forgotten that any car with ABS or Traction Control already has an individual speedometer for each wheel. That's how the ABS system can determine if one wheel has locked up (if under braking conditions it is not spinning at all or at least not at a speed consistent with the rest of the wheels), or how traction control can tell if one wheel is spinning on something slippery (because under acceleration one wheel is spinning faster than the rest.)

    The article is correct in that it would be possible to track a car using it's TPMS if it uses the radio transmitter system. But to draw the conclusion that our government only passed this law to spy on us is perhaps a bit hasty given that the law doesn't demand the TPMS system involve radio transmitters and there's a non-transmitting system that's cheaper to implement.

  62. Unique ID? by DrVomact · · Score: 1

    So the tire pressure monitors broadcast a unique ID. Is it the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)? I doubt it. Maybe theoretically someone could find out which ID corresponds to a specific person's car...but there are much easier ways to find out who's driving by, for crying out loud—like looking at the license plate. Drivel like this makes us genuine paranoids look bad.

    --
    Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
  63. car technology by gsmraxe · · Score: 1

    Just makes me glad I don't own a car made after 1968. All the talk of "black boxes" and tracking devices in tires makes me shudder. People are paying lots of money for technology laden cars (that aren't worth $20K+ to begin with) to lose their privacy. I don't miss onstar, I use paper maps or look up my directions before I leave. I feel no desire for cup warmers, seat warmers, a refrigerator in my glove box, doors and trunk that auto-unlock when you push a button, or a car that auto-starts with a button, power windows... My 1968 Mustang suits me fine, so does my 1968 Chevy Suburban, aside from the stereo/cd changer, there's no electronics (except maybe for the elec choke, points are a pain to tune) in them. Gas mileage is really the only drawback (but I live less than 2 miles from my work), parts are plentiful, cheap, easy to fix, (I rehupolstered my own car), no smog, cheap to insure and register.

    Someone hit me a month or so ago, I've heard the "new cars are safer than the old ones, crumple zones and all of that", his car was completely totaled, mine had to have the valance replaced, the bumper bent back and re-chromed and weld the front fender. He also had more bumps and bruises than I did (I had none and wasn't wearing a seat belt). His airbags deployed "AFTER" the accident, like 1 or 2 seconds after. My audio power amp fell down in the trunk, that's been re bolted up no damage, the trunk was matted/padded (another one of my car projects). I shudder to think what would have happened if I was driving my '68 Suburban that day, they might not have gotten through the accident w/out going to the hospital, or the morgue. A small plastic car hitting a 7000 lb Truck wouldn't be a pretty sight.

    I can check my own tire pressure thank you very much.

  64. 'Government sucks' by electrictroy · · Score: 1

    That's the first thing that popped into my head when I read your story about how your car was "crippled" because you bought new wheels without sensors. Dumb.

    In fact the whole idea is dumb.

    There's nothing difficult about keeping your tires pressurized. And even if the tire does go flat, so what? I had 3 flats in the last year (old tires that literally fell apart), and it was no big deal. I just pulled-over and called AAA. Nothing dangerous about it.

    I think this is a case of a government employee with nothing to do, so he escalated the idea to his bored boss, who called together a bunch of other people who had nothing to do, and to justify their existence on the payroll they came-up with this ridiculous idea.

    Next I suppose they'll want to mandate "Wiper Sensors"
    that can detect when you need new blades, and
    force your car to slow to 40 if they are worn.
    I'm tired of gov't treating me like I'm a child and/or idiot.

    --
    The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
    1. Re:'Government sucks' by Bruiser80 · · Score: 1

      The latest issues of Tire Pressure sensors and Stability control come from the SUV rollover issues that the government got into. Studies showed that improperly inflated tires going onto a soft shoulder sideways, along with defective bridgestone tires caused much of the trouble (bad driving aside). Stability control is becoming standard on SUVs, and TPMS is becoming mandatory for most cars, to prevent this from happening again.

      As for the limp mode, it sucks, that's for sure. It added an extra $250 onto my new set of rims, and I've been borrowing a tire programmer whenever I change my tires out (fortunately, somebody in my club bought a universal programmer, so I can get my tires learned at events). There are work-arounds, like keeping your programmed tires near the car at your pit area - the computer doesn't go into limp mode if it can see the sensors when the car starts. Pain in the ass. The older cars would just keep giving you an error when you start up your car, and this one will eventually make the "safe bet" and assume that no signal = no pressure. Ah well.

      Ya, the government sucks, but I have a feeling this was somebody at GM deciding that the old setup was allowing owners to put any kind of goofy tire/rim combo and they were trying to cover their asses on owners lawsuits for damage. Dunno.

      --
      Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in the mud. After a while, you realize the engineer enjoys it.
    2. Re:'Government sucks' by NateTech · · Score: 1

      I think you meant "Wipe your ass for you too-sensors", didn't you?

      --
      +++OK ATH
  65. Encrypt by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

    "Fortunately the problem is easy to fix: encrypt TPMS data the way keyless entry systems do."

    Tracking me? Encrypt the license plate too!

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.