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RFID License Plates in the UK
An anonymous reader writes "The UK Government is studying license plates with embedded RFID tags. The plates can be read from 300 feet away and in rapid succession by readers embedded in the road or by 'surveillance vehicles.'"
A key benefit of the e-Plate is that the tag provides an encrypted and secure ID code which is registered in the UK Ministry of Transport's vehicle database. This code prevents tampering, cloning, or other forms of fraud that can currently happen with camera-based systems. Additionally, the e-Plate is designed to shatter if anyone tries to remove or otherwise tamper with it, and the tag can be programmed to transmit a warning if any attempt is made to dislodge the plate.
They said that for DVD encryption too, but look where that got us. Eventually, someone, somewhere will find a way to tamper with it and the best the government will be able to do is, like always, use heavy fines to curb the spread, but it will be futile, just like it was with DVD encryption.
I bet I'll have the plate transmit "YHBT" within two years.
When will they learn?
Before you get your panties in a knot, please note that modern license plates were originally designed so that they could be OCR'ed. They currently use this at the borders here in the US.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
My big concern with this is of course, privacy. Survelance cameras are already very common in major cities, adding this technology to the cameras or to areas near the cameras would be trivial. Using this technology to monitor access to corporate parking lots would make this very attractive to the private sector. Companies could band togethor to sell data, or sell it to private investigators, who will combine the data into one large database. Your employer can determine the RFID tag for your car by comparing the ID read with the ID used to get into a corporate controlled parking lot. Then the company (or your significant other) can search in some pay-for-use database maintained by firm X to find out where your car was on tuesday when you wern't at work (or missed that dinner date). If your car spends too long near your competitors office, who knows what the corporate response would be.
Government of course will respond in turn, DMCA laws in the US would prevent anyone there (assuming a similar thing was implemented) from determining what their code was (since it is 'encrypted'). The curious would be thrown in jail, or sued, and the major corporations would still enjoy the power.
paul reinheimer
... because, at least in central London, all car number plates are OCR'ed for use in the Congestion Charge scheme; RFID would have less inaccuracies (like the Somerset farmer who got a demand for his 17mph tractor being 150 miles away in London).
James F.
If this was attempted in America, I wonder if it would be considered as allowing "unreasonable search and seizure."
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Um . . . I'm sorry, I'm coming up short here.
This may be a sign that The Simpsons have truely jumped the shark and are no longer relevant to the modern world.
Oh, I know:
[Homer]
OOOOOoooohhhhhuuhhhhhmm . . . RFID License Plate!
[/Homer]
Stefan
As an outsider, I have noticed that there is not much in the way left of Privacy in the UK.
Is this just not considered important over there? Is a "greater good" mentatlity strong? Or, is it just a no one really cares so the government can get away with anything put on your tinfoil hat oh fuck I got a ticket for going 5mph over attitude?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
...and speeding tickets in the mail. 'Nuff said.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
For example, tracking how long it takes you to get from point A to point B, and then with the knowledge of your license, they can send you a ticket via the mail if you were speeding! No need for camera ticketing anymore.
I wondor which terrorist threat will be used to justify this one? The way we're going the UK will be implanting babies in the womb with chips, ID's, DNA scans, iris scans, finger prints, foot prints, intelligence tests, ASl . . . . . . Someone vote this joker Blair out, I'm too scared to be registered to vote :/
My Portfolio
Seems that some of the proposed uses assume that all cars will be fitted with them.
Tampering with plates is a bit easier to track than ripping your DVD's to PC.
Pass by a cop broadcasting l0s3r, and I'm sure he will not say, "Oh well, I guess we can't track him anymore.'
One possible good use for this would be paying tolls. I am constantly annoyed by people who pull up to the toll booth, peer at the booth in befuddlement, realize Oh! I have to put something in before the gate moves!, look again to find out how much they need to put in, discuss it with their passengers, take up a collection, thrown it in the hopper, watch the gate rise, work out which peddle they need to press, and go.... Read their plate. Bill 'em, or have them put it on a credit card.
Some feel thinking is a pleasure. Others feel it's a chore. Most, having never tried it, have no feel for it at all.
Now they'll know exactly how fast i was going! without using those arbitrary numbers those radar guns make.
Now all I need is a RFID tag stapled to my little buddy so the government can track how often i get it on with the wife. May come in handy for the future population controls and killing off all ppl over 30....
besides our cars are supposed to be just metaphorical extensions of our penises anyway right?
The future is so BRIGHT!
"If I were bound by all laws everywhere I'm sure I would have committed a capital crime somewhere."
Do you mean to tell me that that wherever people drive in the UK, their cars will be "tagged" with a unique identifier that will allow a car to be "traced" back to an owner?
We can't put up with this, people. Next thing you know, police will be able to take this "tag" number, run it though a "computer data base," and find out how many traffic violations you have committed! I, for one, fight tooth and nail to keep this from coming to pass.
dinner: it's what's for beer
By the way, I'm making all of this up. And you didn't read it anyway. So it never happened.
didn't i see this in the first episode of seaquest?
The UK government, especially under Blair, has long used the motorist as a large source of tax revenue. Whether it be through high Fuel costs, a large number of hidden speed cameras (most of which do little in the way of preventing accidents), toll roads, and various other initiatives under the banner of "increasing the use of public transport".
The government would only invest in this with one motive and one motive alone, squeezing more money out of the motorist through draconian fines.
Here's a related video showing the RFID capability now installed into tires. Note that the manufacturer is programming the VIN number into the tires. It is only a matter of time before you will not be able to get tires installed without them programming the VIN number.
More infor here.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
Now bend over.
with the recent spike in US gas prices, I'll bet some companies would like to put this in gas pumps to track drive offs.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I do NOT want to have my whereabouts monitored by anyone who has a reciever. No information whatsoever is given in the article on any safeguards that they plan on placing in the system to protect against abuse of this system. If the govt tries to impose this upon us I will unplug the battery/run 220V through the plates to decommission the RFID emitter.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
This isn't about about privacy. This is just another way to charge you for speeding tickets.
Tickets are a major source of income for many cities. Especially in areas where people commute across state lines, and police target people with out-of-state tags, whose owners don't pay local taxes.
In my area, there are cameras and speed detectors right along the borders. When out of state drivers go into the state and fail to follow the excessively low speed limits in and around the border area, they get fined. When the locals don't follow it, police look the other way.
You can be in the middle of a large group of speeders, and if you're the only one among them with out-of-state tags, you're the one that's going to get ticketed.
It sounds as if the device is configured to self-destruct upon attempted tampering. This works for me; just tamper with it and *poof* no more Big Brother watching you:)
from the 90s here in the U.S.A was a change to vehicle OBD (on-board diag). OBD III was to transmit to roadside nodes any vehicles that had slipped into emissions failure. The LE (law enforcement would then send a 'fix or else' citation in the mail. One feature of this was vehicle location, direction and speed were also sent, so although they would 'never' use said information, it was an easy extrapolation to speeding tickets.
No, the people are willing but a blind man named Blunket is trying to remove all privacy for everyone else. He's blind so he cannot drive, so penalties for drivers are always good. He's blind so he cannot read his own mail, so mail privacy is not necessary.
The man is totally unfit as a home secretary, yet nobody here wants to tell the blind bastard to fuck off, its not politically correct.
I'm moving out of the UK soon and I won't look back.
I'm really glad this new technology will soon be available to our brave boys in blue, valiantly battling crime on the streets of the UK.
</Sarcasm>
Honestly, aren't the motorists here persecuted enough? We have speed cameras popping up in every lucrative "accident blackspot" in the UK (I have a number near me that appeared on roads where I can honestly never recall hearing of any accidents, but the local school curiously has none outside the gates), we're getting taxed off of the roads despite the fact the public transport system would be ridiculed by any visitor from afghanistan. So what does our "brilliant" government do? Find a new way to bring in the much needed revenue from those crazy car drivers....
I can't see this going live until after the next election though - it would be political suicide after everything else Blair and co have done.
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
This could be a potentially excellent tracking system... I mean, barring privacy concerns, imagine the potential for investigating vehicle related crimes (Hit&Run, Robbery...). Not to mention, traffic lights that change when you approach, based on where you're going, or where you've been. Pay tolls automatically without special hardware, stolen vehicle reporting...
Why do the stupid people comeup with such brilliant ideas to establish the draconian police state all the time ? Any human being with even half brain can think the privacy issues wrapped around such a figure and not even voice up his/her opinion in a public way.
"Oh but if you are not doing anything illegal how's that gonna hurt you ?" is the response from the bird brained politician, I can almost hear.
Gawd... enough is enough. Even Walmart put RFID into suspended animation and at the end all they were going to do is to speed up check-outs (yeah, rrrrright). Wake up powers that be !!! People do not want to be tracked.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
If you have nothing useful to say post as AC.
The Home Office is putting all sorts of surveillance measures into place. It's not clear how long UK citizens will tolerate it. Generally speaking, they don't have that instinctive mistrust of government seen in Americans, but that may change.
Just stick a transmitter in my arm already, I give up.
in bed.
The new e-Plates project uses active (battery powered) RFID tags embedded in the plates to identify vehicles in real time.
just cut the power wire to the plate, right?
... to all of those who thought you'd escape "American Totalitarianism" by escaping to the Paradise that is Europe.
Stupidity and greed are the only elements in the universe more common than hydrogen and helium. And America definetly doesn't have the exclusive.
I would rather be ashes than dust!
Are these people stupid. Are they thick. Have they no idea what they're saying?! Don't they read history books.
One of the corner stones of our democracy is anonimity from the government. People will say: "Oh your just a crank. _OUR_ government will _NEVER_ abuse this to repress us!". Say that to someone in China when RFID is introduced over there.
Will all this new survelience technology emerging, the rights we took for granted are being eroded.
I'm sick of morons introducing all this stuff without thinking past their next meal. I for one will be removing/disabling these tags the minute they come out on a _Volutary_(i.e. manatory) basis.
Though they'll be extremly difficult to find and remove i'll bet. I wonder why?
May the Maths Be with you!
If you have nothing useful to say post as AC.
Do the UK police have time for this sort of thing? Is crime really so low that they can chase after motorists when the inevitable false alarms, tampering (accidental and otherwise) take place if the RFID tag system is deployed? I mean really, collecting data is the easy part, but at the end of the day real live humans have to follow up on this "data".
Ugh, can't you just feel Big Brother's breath on the back of your neck? In the end though, I have faith that the Britons won't take this lying down.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
This also gives the government (or anyone else who can hack into their systems) the ability to locate your car at any point in time.
Fight Spammers!
I'm going to assume for the moment they aren't stupid enough to include personal information in the data on the chip, (that would get privacy watchdogs pantys in a bunch big time) but think about it. seriously think about what you're saying, "the company or significant other can search in some pay for use database... " if they want to watch you that closely they can hire a private detective, and if the company does it how do they know it was you in the car at the time not said significant other. Fact is they could do this now. use OCR on licence plates. the technology is there already. the arguements you make go against the very concept of licence plates to begin with. I understand the concerns, but these concerns aren't new, and the draconian big brotherness you mention can already take place. big bold letters and numbers on the licence plates make it easy to read from cameras. if people wanted to do what you propose they can do it now, yet for some reason, they aren't. Maybe the world isn't as evil as you think?
Which I submitted yesterday, but they rejected. Putting them into people seems FAR more interesting than into licencse plates.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Should be "The UK Government are studying..."
Can you people speak english?
If you don't like the idea of your car being tracked, just microwave the license plate. It will fry the RFID tag and make lots of pretty sparks too.
Please flee in terror in an orderly manner.
Let's say I'm a Muslim in Oregon, and I'm accused of committing a terrorist crime in Cleveland. I have multiple people willing to testify that I was in Oregon at the time. But the police have three different RFID reads placing my car in Cleveland at the time. Which one of these has more credibility in a court of law? Which one should have more credibility?
Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
If this would get the police off the road, and let me speed at will with just a bit of tinfoil, then I'm all for it!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I didn't have a clue what the poster was talking about (Congestion Charge)... so I asked google:
http://www.cclondon.com/whatis.shtml
Suddenly, this RFID buisness doesn't seem so bad in comparison to what Londoners are already going through.
"Multiple tags can be read simultaneously by a single reader at speeds of up to 320km per hour (200mph), up to 100 metres (300 feet) away."
:)
From memory Top Gear (a uk motoring program) proved that the GATSO cameras (the main uk speed camera at the moment) couldn't see vehicles over 165mph, this ups the ante a little.
Time to learn how to hack the engine management chip on my car
"Additionally, the e-Plate is designed to shatter if anyone tries to remove or otherwise tamper with it, and the tag can be programmed to transmit a warning if any attempt is made to dislodge the plate."
I thought RFID tags were a passive technology and worked on the principle of electromagnetic induction or something like that. Since when can they transmit warnings?
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
but I've been wondering how the EZ Pass/Tag cards here in Houston, TX, USA know that you're not in the vehicle that you purchased it for, like they have recently become able to do ( you used to be able to purchase a card and use it in multiple vehicles ).
//takes off tin-foil hat, deep breath
My best guess would be an RFID tag in your registration sticker, as my truck hasn't been inspected in years, nor have I changed my license plates in years. But the only test case I've tried yet has been my GF's truck, and hers is new, so it might be that she has a RFID tag in her plates or registration sticker, and it's picking up the discrepancy on her vehicle, but on mine the only way to verify a discrepancy would be between the registration sticker and the EZTag.
People look at me funny, but I have a real hard time believing that they're verifying this by photo/video systems, even w/ human interaction. It's just too difficult for roads that see > 1 million cars per day.
Which means that they've probably been doing this for years, because whenever you run one ( even years ago ), they send you a bill for 1 USD + 14 USD "handling fee" to your registered address. And, once again, I have a hard time believing they are using video systems.
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
In many places like Illinois there is something called speed pass. You drive through an express lane that just reads a speedpass device in your car and you get a bill every so often.
Evolution or ID?
No, I'm not serious....
This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
So the cops know where your car is. I think that's a GOOD THING, because I am not a criminal. If my car gets stolen, it's going to be just one more thing that makes the thieves' lives harder.
We've got CCTV cameras in city centres, which are popular because they reduce crime and antisocial behaviour.
Sure, speed cameras are unpopular. BUT they have been a huge factor in reducing road casualties in accident blackspots. That's people who are alive and well today BECAUSE of this kind of technology.
There's not some X-files big brother consipracy going on here, people. Maybe you are just a bit too paranoid in the US. You can't see the (large) benefits of such things because of the (mostly imaginary) downside.
I threw away my tin foil hat when I grew up.
What will it take to /. one of these RFID readers?
Additionally, the e-Plate is designed to shatter if anyone tries to remove or otherwise tamper with it,
The pranksters in the UK are going to LOVE this one.
My opinion..
Useful applications:
1) Easier to implement no-toll-booth toll roads
2) Police purposes
Drawbacks:
1) Privacy - but I'm thinking of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, and it doesn't seem to conflict with anything. Is it our right to drive unfettered on roads paid for by taxpayers?
2) Cost
3) Battery power
Should be interesting. I have a feeling that this is going to go through and 50 years from now, we'll wonder how ancient peoples from 2004 managed to get away without RFID license plates.
...look at stories such as this and worry about the loss of privacy. What makes you think you have any privacy now? I'm not trying to be flippant, but privacy in the US and most of Europe has become an illusion. Your cell phone can or will be able to track you; your use of credit cards tracks you; the fact that you have a social security card (in the US) or a license can be used to track you.
Many of us, myself included, thought that our privacy would be robbed of us by some huge, overbearing government like a thief in the night. But you know what? We gave it up for nothing but convienence and our never-ending desire for newer and better gadgets.
Don't be a looter...and yes, I know that it's spelled with an "A" instead of an "E".
can ask users to put the tags. It is similar to a business-customer relationship. If all the customers refused or protested, then it will not work. In the case of the UK, people were happy with the law which forces ISPs to keep the customer logs for a period of 7 years. No one should be surprised.
In the age of the patriot act (in the US), nothing comes as a surprise; furthermore, mony of the people who are posting on privacy end up voting for the reelection of the chimp.
Let's just put an RFID in my ass and be done with it.
Self awareness - try it!
Do you also paint your current plates black to prevent OCR cameras from reading them? RFID adds nothing new to the technology, except perhaps more accurate information.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Wonder how susceptible this is going to be to a microwave oven. Sure, it's going to fuck your oven, but it should also provide an easy way to disable the tag. Drilling a hold through the RFID would also be effective I suspect.
I understand the need to monitor criminals and terrorists, but I really don't like the idea of having the government (anyone in fact) able to freely track my every movement. We have the Oyster card (RFID enabled travelcard) for the Underground over here, os it will get to the point one day that you won't be able to buy or sell or travel without being monitored. Kinda biblical almost.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
The UK is really descending into a Big Brother state, with Blunkett trying to get all the draconian measures in he can.
I wonder, if there was a list of steps that a state needed to take to be completely like 1984, how many of these steps the UK government would have taken?
Man arrested at work for sending a text (SMS) with a few "questionable" keywords
I think the government will only be happy when they tax us so much that we can't afford to do wrong, and they can monitor our movements all the time.
I also think the UK wouldn't be so high on the list of targets if we didn't blindly support whatever the US does, which usually seems to anger much of the world.
Get your own free personal location tracker
The plates are the same shape and size as conventional plates, and are permanently fitted to the vehicle in the same way. says the article.
So, attached by 2 screws then? Damn that permanent fitting. How will we ever get around it?
Wouldn't this be HIGHLY suseptable to some form of radar jamming, similar to what is done (albiet, illegally) with speed guns?
Additionally, the hacking wouldn't be to change your code to 'l0s3r', it would be to change your code to someone with a similar make/model/color as your own.
Perhaps, you have some shark jumping to explain, Fonzie...uh...Stefan.
Hmm, being that I don't think that a license plate can be read at 300 feet by the naked eye, does this mean that the traditional plates are now obsolete? (Or are they going to stay with us like the Cap Lock key?).
We are fed up of this I and many who i've talked to would like the police to catch criminals and leave the motorist alone. They are spending too much on forcing the driver to conform or PAY. as far as the car driver is concerned Britain is now a police state. The police give very little time to theft and breakins etc.
while(karma less_than enough_karma){karma++}
I was thinking about the reverse scenario for in-car speed limit notification. Stick the tag in the road and the reader in the car, have the tags report 30/50/70/School/Blackspot etc.
Puts more of the cost onto the motorist, but then many people seem happy to pay for sat nav, radar detectors or blackspot detectors (read: speed camera fine avoidance)
Well darn it now I got to aluminum foil my entire car as well as my head.
Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
Then could I simply carry an invalid/old/unused/false/second license plate in the trunk to confuse the reading device? Or replace the embedded RFID with another one? Or make a portable computer send a false RFID signal and deactivate the real thing? ...
I am sure many possibilities remain to drive "freely".
You are more than the sum of what you consume. Desire is not an occupation.
One common argument I get into with my friends regarding cloning and things along these lines (anything where people go "yeah, it's got great potential to help, but great potential to harm, or be abused") is that we are inventing all these wonderful technologies but forget that, like anything powerful, it needs to be policed. However, instead of considering this during the process of invention, we are looking at it as a secondary issue. Policing privacy is the NUMBER ONE issue at hand here. There is no doubt that WFID can greatly help the commercial industry with product tracking, but it could also be abused by letting people (who have no right to know) what you are buying. Walmart is deploying WFID tags on all their products which will GREATLY decrease theeft, loss, and other negative profit situations. However, I don't want some joe shmoe to be able to find out that I bought condoms.
The means to police the correct use of such infomation should be invented BEFORE the invention of the tool that gains that information.
I'm certain that they will not get rid of the OCR checks that the border guards do, but having that as a backup is not a bad thing. It is a lot easier and faster to look up a car by computer. This could give border guards more time to refine their charming personality!
I wonder what happens to the RFID xceiver when the plate is placed upon an anvil, and struck with a hammer. Repeatedly. I wonder if it still works?
A criminal who needs to drive around isnt going to prevented by the RFID tags, she'll just drive a car that isnt tagged: the only way that can be caught is by police checking that every car that passes has a valid tag - how is that different from using the current 'dumb' numberplates against a database?
Meanwhile, the law-abiding have lost the right to lose themselves in a crowd, keep who they choose to associate with secret etc. (i.e. without taking heroic measures to ensure that privacy)
Of course, the real power brokers are either using taxicabs or chaffeur-driven cars from the car-pool, so their rights arent affected...
sure.
btw, your computer is transmitting it's ip to the internet... and um, your mailman knows where you live.
If you own a car, then it's pretty much given that somebody who's near it knows where it is.. or that person is lost.
.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
(tinfoil hat)
I know wheresgeorge.com does this for fun, but how come Ashcroft isn't using serial #s in US dollar bills to track their journey from corrupt hand to corrupt hand in the name of terrorism?
Think about it: You withdraw cash from an ATM, it records the #s on the bills handed to you. 2 weeks later FBI agents bust an anthrax transaction, and some money is confiscated. The money in the confisaction found has serial #s on the bills that matched the ones givent to you by ATM. Are you a suspect now?
Seems like # tracking on bills would prevent any coverups by going "cash-only"(ie no bank transactions, etc)
(/tinfoil hat)
Just wondering, sort of, if I have 3 or 4 nice doggies in the car, all of whom have RFID chips (at least here in the US, it's a nationwide pet recovery ID system) implanted. What are the chances that their 4 numbers will get intermingled with the licence plate ID?
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
If it's only broadcasting your plate number, which is visible anyway, why is there a need to hide the content of the broadcast?
This would enable police/governemnt to install sensors in the road to check speed. Not cool. Need to buy a RFID jammer for the car now.
This is my signature.
A few years later, the govt requires everyone to carry personal RFIDs when out in public, 'for your protection.' You think, "that's not cool, but I haven't done anything wrong." So you let it happen. You probably believe the the few who bother to protest are in the tinfoil hat-wearing crowd. "Only people who have something to hide should be concerned," you assure yourself. Besides, nothing bad happened when the govt started tracking vehicles. "Alarmists," you think. So you swallow another one.
Then the govt decides that every room in every home should have a camera, 'for your protection.' At this, you balk: "that's going way to far!" you cry.
Too late. You didn't care when they put protection devices on cars, or on people, but why do you care now? Surely, you must have something to hide. "Don't worry," grins the guard, "they'll cure you of those subversive thoughts at the Ronald W. Reagan Memorial Reeducation Center.
Moral: Every right you abnegate while gaining nothing in return is another proverbial nail in your coffin. Unless there is a demonstrated benefit (Fox "news" saying there is does not count) for your tact acceptance, your acquiescence robs us all.
Yeah, right.
I think one of the possible differences is that the RFID solution has a much lower bar to entry for those who would like to use it. Yes, I know, anyone can look at a plate and record the number but it takes a lot more to OCR it (and hence the higher bar to entry). Another disturbing thing about the RFID solution is that it makes it all much easier to automate and therefore do on a much much larger scale. Instead of needing a slick camera and computer based system all you need is an inexpensive reader. Those differences will make proliferation of the system much much more likely. Where will they be instituted and for what purposes? That's what has a lot of us worried.
Bob, is that you? You always were a bit antsy about the whole "tagging the whole population" thing.
Just like in Harry Potter 3, you can make a mischief map showing everyone's location with this, assuming you could get a team of wireless P2P wardrivers. They'd all just beam GPS and license info around on whomever is nearby, and then voila! You could steal City Hall.
stuff |
You grab the RFID of plates for whatever dumb politicians allowed this to go though, and then replicate them for anyone who feels like taking a quick little spin down the road?
You don't even need the RFID on your plates, in fact it might would better with a seperate RFID responder (RFID is fairly passive, can you send a boosted return signal?).
The safety/privacy concerns of this are staggering. Yes, I can always sit and watch for "license plate X" on the highway, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be hard for a non-governmental person/corp could actively scan plates with a homebrew scanner. Think advertisement, lots of advertisement (as they start to track your movements and where you frequently park your car), or perhaps even stalkers.
For those of us out there who love to hack, this is gonna be a hell of a boon. I am betting its MUCH MUCH easier to fake the RF signal generated by these chips then to produce the holography in order to make a decent fack license plate. Since lots of the systems using the RFtag will be automated there will be no way for them to look and see if it maches the plate. When cops not doing anything wrong simply turn off the transmitter and let my real tag show through. These things are very low power, so drowning one out with the signal I want seen should be simple enough. Moreover I probably don't need to even figure out the encryption just capture some sample data from someone I don't like and and use that. I don't think the tech allows for much logic in this things. Its just got power send the data.
OK, so VIN is the Vehicle Identification #. How would the manufacturer know what the VIN # is of whatever vehicle the tires go into (assuming tire manufacturer and vehicle manufacturer differ). Consider also that this dissappears once you buy new tires, and I believe it's legal to buy tires from overseas so long as they meet road condition requirements for local roads?
Somehow, there is a good side to all this (the RFID and other various tracking/IDing/syping govt goodies).
When a government/organisation relies totaly and fully trusts a computer system to do its work, then, in the end, it gives us more freedom. Computers can be hacked, cracked and controlled by whoever actualy tries hard enough. A real person cannot be so easily fooled.
There are two types of people who criticize technology: those who understand nothing about it but fear it or want to use it to control everything (like the senators who pass stupid laws), and those who make this technology and don't want it to be used against them. Do the math: WE got them by the balls.
The more society will rely on technology, the more freedom we can get. Freedom will be "underground" though...
You are more than the sum of what you consume. Desire is not an occupation.
I'm sure classic car owners would get away with it.
There is no way I would put a new number plate on my car - even if they did make them white on black (or rather chrome letters/numbers with black background).
They allow us not to pay car tax, not to wear seatbelts, not to have reversing lights. So not having an RFID is merely another concession.
Please don't steal my sig, it's my intellectual property
There already OCR your numberplate in the UK to see if you are a regular non-payer.
however, everyone I know that's ever driven off without paying uses numberplates they stole about 5 minutes ago.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
This is a nightmare. Do you want to have tickets mailed to you every time you cross a yellow line, go over the speed limit or go through a yellow/red light? The police state is forming and we need to be aware and say no. They are going to use this to track where everybody is and eventually apply use taxes, including "global" ones. Let's all consider the final destination of systems like this. Link Proof
http://tinyurl.com/globalwarmingisascam
This will make our incredibly safe roads even safer by ooohh possibly fraction of a percent. I presume it will only ever be used to tag speeding motorists who don't stop for police, and for some sort of tolling systems. How much of the kinetic energy produced by vehicles daily actually gets transferred into damaging human bodies anyway? I'm betting it is a miniscule amount. I regularly speed like everyone else.
If I promise to be a good boy can I have some better karma?
That only police can track an RFID #. It's a unique identifier, and equipment to read them (while expensive for the average consumer) is readily available.
And the govt. is in control of maintaining roads. So aside from law enforcement, this data is useful for determining driving habits and how they relate to traffic congestion. This data can be used to determine how to best expand roadways and find methods for alternatives to rlieve congestion, such as carpooling or mass transit. I don't see how privacy is an issue since it's a public road. If you want privacy, you should ask yourself why the govt. is in charge of roads in the first place. At least with private roads, you have the option of choosing roads where companies have policies that don't involve selling your driving habits data.
RFID Enforced.
I know that in the case of vehicles, these types of things are designed to create revenue for the local police departments and whatnot, but honestly, I don't think this will help make the roads any safer. All it will do is force you to mind every little detail of the law, no matter how insignificant, even in situations where it really doesn't make much sense, as in the case of standing at stop signs for 3 seconds when there are clearly no cars around. I do NOT advocate running stop signs, or even just slowing down and then blazing through them. On the contrary, I hate it when people do that. But if you're stopping, and the car is almost at a complete stop, and you can clearly see that there are no cars approaching, and it is perfectly safe, then what difference does it make if you actually come to a halt and wait for three seconds?
The officer who stops you for that should be looking for the reckless driver, late to work, who is weaving between the cars, going twice the speed limit, and so stressed out that he's about to get someone killed. But instead, the officer will wait on some secluded street, where about three cars pass in an hour, because he knows that none of those three cars will make a 100% stop at the stop sign, and then he'll write those drivers tickets. Meanwhile, on the main road, someone is driving drunk on the wrong side of the road. If you've ever wondered why the police are always there when you do something insignificant that is "wrong" but they're not when something truly dangerous is going on? That's why.
So the short version of all that is that I am against putting any kind of tracking technologies in vehicles because first, it will be for convenience, then, it will be for safety, and finally, when nobody is noticing and the technology is widespread and in place, it will be for revenue purposes. Without adding safety.
Just a quick comment, it may be a little offtopic but I think its relevant. For several years here in the US, a large percentage of cars have had a "black box" (just a term, I don't think they are actually black) embedded in your engine. Its purpose has been geared toward use by the insurance companies, it records your speed at the time of a crash. If they were pushing these RFID's to make it easier to give you speeding tickets, why didn't they just broadcast a unique identifier and the speed from each car. Then they wouldn't even have to be stationary to determine your speed. I'm not saying the idea of RFID tags in license plates is good or bad, but the argument that they are being pushed to make speeding tickets easier to give is kind of like saying te internet was created to make identity theft easier. Basically my point is that despite the overwhelming sense of paranoia that has come from this, maybe, just maybe, there are uses here other than tracking YOU all over the country.
The stupidity of your average American is just about the same as the average European, we simply show it off better.
RFID will drastically ease the ability of anyone to perform surveillance of everyones movements. The article reports that they can be read from distances of up to a hundred meters distance.
Let me put it this way:
My license plate number is public knowledge. You can come take a look at it without me complaining. For around 2 decades my Email address was also public knowledge (my first Email@ was on a Multics system connected to the Arpanet). With the abuse of Email through SPAM this is no longer possible. The proposed RFID system is apparently almost as easy to abuse as is SMTP. The widespread deployment of RFID, the extremely low barrier apparent and the absence of any penalty for the abuse of this system will make it possible for any organization with enough motivation & funding to spy out who goes where & when. The potential for abuse is boundless.
I can see how you may have difficulties comprehending my position. As a marxist you may place the purported greater good before that of the individual. As one who believes instead that society is only protected when individuals rights are protected, I do not.
Unless there are clear safeguards against the abuse of the system, I'll zap it.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
License plates are a means of identifying your vehicle while it uses public roads, highways, etc. Nobody ever said you had a right to total anonymity, especially while driving a vehicle on public roads. Get over it!
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
FACT: Discarded auto tires contribute 1,243,918 tons of non-recyclable trash to US landfills every year.
FACT: In the United States and Canada in 2003, 87 children under the age of eighteen were seriously injured in accidents involving unregistered tire-swings 70% of which were suspended from unregistered trees.
FACT: In Europe, where private ownership of tire-mounting machines has long been prohibited, not one violent crime was committed with an unregistered tire-mounting machine in the last decade..
FACT: In 2003, 4,451 children below the age of 18 were killed or seriously wounded in accidents involving improperly-secured home tire-mounting machines.
FACT: In French Guiana, where the law forbids private ownership of radio frequencies, the wealth-gap between rich and poor is only 10% of that found in the United States, and studies have shown unequivocally that tires wear up to 40% longer.
FACT: In both Cuba and Canada, publicly-funded health care ensures that doctors can't afford large, heavy SUVs, resulting in significantly diminished levels of tire-related non-recyclable waste.
How come they get the 300-ft RFID when my work ID has to be held less than an inch from the reader? some days I have to actually take it out of my wallet to scan!
--
It seems that detecting RFID detectors would be just as easy if not easier than detecting radar. Assuming the RFID in the license plate is passive then it'll have to be queried by the detector, which should be fairly easy to pick up. Then you can jam the frequency. Of course, I'm not up on the concepts, frequency hopping could be a way around the jamming, but then that makes the RFID tags far more complicated.
Note: I'll go ahead and voice an objection to my jamming proposal. If detectors in the road detect a car passing but no RFID response then the network can alert the guys in the patrol cars to come ask you about that "malfunctioning" license plate.
I am no political scientist, nor a historian for that matter, but I remember coming across an interesting idea posited by one of America's 'founding fathers' (either Washington or Franklin?)
--begin paraphrase--
It is evident that in history, cultures progress through different states of rule. In many cases, the people are ruled by a strict tyranny. The people will revolt and establish some sort of self-rule. After a period of time, those in power will gradually take freedoms from the people whilst the people slip further into ignorance and laziness, thus capitulating their rights to the elite. At some point, the government has come full cycle and exists as a tyranny. This repeats itself throughout history
--end paraphrase--
All people should voice their opinions about the use of this technology. Technology has a habit of limiting instead of broadening people's freedoms.
Remember, a flood starts with one drop of water...
according to the article, the thing needs batteries to work...
remove the battery, no more tracking...
I am not in favour of all of the facial recognition and other invasive stuff, but picking out crims who are too stupid to get a tax disk seems like something worth doing. People who drive without insurance deserve what they get.
...is where the government obtained the power to track us wherever we go. Requiring a license for public safety purposes is intrusive, but arguably important enough to be a valid exercise of the police power. Forcing people who use autombiles to travel with radio transmitters that can be used to track them constantly is qualitatively different.
For instance, it could easily be used to chill the right to free association. Imagine what the Commie hunters back in the '50s could've done with these (assuming they had the technology, of course). That example only took me a second to come up with, and the people at the FBI are probably much more creative than I.
Stop learning! Only you can prevent esoterrorism.
You sound like those pop-up ads.
"YOUR COMPUTER IS BROADCASTING AN IP ADDRESS!"
Oh no! Not that! Someone help me!
If I need anonymity, I need only drop by any of the free wireless points, change my MAC & voila, I have become untracable except for people with the ressources of MI5 or similar.
At present it is not possible/economical to deploy a network of watchers to follow everyone around. RFID as proposed, without safeguards, nor penalties, will change this & make it possible for Orwell's worst nightmares to become possible.
Present me with clear limits on the system and penalties for it's abuse & I'll change my mind. Until then I see as many possibilities for abuse as SMTP.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
This would make it easy to catch speeders, using a pair of readers embedded in the road some distance apart. Based on the amount of time it takes your vehicle to travel from the first reader to the second (say 1 km away), your speed is caculated. Your (car's) identity is known by the RFID itself, so your ticket comes in the mail. It would be a lot more accurate than photo radar (no, "it must have been the other guy speeding not me" excuses) and with a lot less maintenace too (no film, no lenses to clean).
OK, so is it more likely that they would track speeders with RFID tags if they did or didn't have them installed on every car? The system has to be in frickin' place before they can abuse it. What, you think there WON'T be attempts to abuse something like this?
Otherwise, I'm not worried about them tracking my moves. Who wants to track me? And how can they track me and everyone else at the same time and keep records of this. The states don't have that kind of money.
Hmm, I wonder if the feds have enough money to do this though. Stir in a little "Patriot Act", maybe a little "DMCA", and everything is tied up in a nice, neat, legal package.
This "I have nothing to worry about anyway" attitude really sickens me.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
RFID tags are being embedded into RFID tag embedded RFID tags in order to track the use of RFID tags for RFID tags.
You are about to give someone a piece of your mind, something which you can ill afford...
America's economy, basically sweat shops, Walmarts, and other places that pay minimum wage or less, depend on cheap labor. And you can't have cheap labor if that labor cannot take shortcuts so it can survive on a sub living wage. So they drive unregistered, uninspected and uninsured cars. As soon as the powerful business interests realize this, they will scuttle that plan. The UK can get away with this because it sort of has public transportation. Not an option here in the US.
... I told you so (although that sentiment's probably redundant by now). RFID apologists defense of choice is that the readers only work at a distance of up to 18 inches, IIRC. Well these work up to 300 feet. Meaning that as soon as RFID is universally accepted, I just get my hands on one of these 300-foot-range scanners, and go driving through the suburbs looking for the house with the most stuff to rob... And yes, I did read the article, and yes, they are battery powered, but so what? Creating a very small battery to go along with the RFID chip is a technical problem that's very easily overcome, just like the 18 inches limitation was easily overcome when many here declared vociferously that said limitation would make RFID all cuddly and innocuous.
The point is that everybody who said that RFID will never have a range longer thatn 18 inches have already been proven wrong, even before RFID has even begun to be implemented. You pro-RFID folks care for some salt with that crow?
The real point of the matter is that NOBODY has a right to see what possessions I have in my house. Not a stranger/burglar on the street, not the government, NOBODY.
They will never stop until somebody makes the
It isn't. Just look at how large masses of people submit so easily to every encroachment to their liberty. Liberty is actually quite _un_ natural.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Multiple tags can be read simultaneously by a single reader at speeds of up to 320km per hour (200mph), up to 100 metres (300 feet) away.
I guess I don't need to worry just keep it above 320
this sig intentionally left blank
When you control the mail, you contol INFORMATION.
- Newman
What if the sensors also transmitted back to your car? The sensors could be programmed to tell your car what the current speed limit for that stretch of road is (and they could be updated with new limits during road construction, etc.). If you had a display showing the current speed limit, you could make sure that you didn't exceed it. Especially useful for those areas where the limit signs are few and far between (assuming the sensors are ubiquitous).
Along similar lines, perhaps the sensors could transmit back information about average traffic speeds for the next few miles, letting you know ahead of time that there's congestion ahead.
The sensors would have to have information about their current lattitude and longitude (or an ID that can be looked up by the tracking software, I suppose) for tracking purposes. They could transmit that to your car as well, decreasing the need for a GPS if you have the proper equipment to interpret the sensors' signal. With that kind of information, you could track yourself and have all the benefits of GPS, at least on the road.
If some of the sensors also had the proper equipment, they could check passing cars for abnormal levels of noise or pollution. While that info could result in getting a "smogcheck required" notification or something like that, if the sensors transmitted a warning to you that your vehicle seemed to be running poorly, you might be able to take it in for service sooner. It might help you get repairs before they become costly, and improve your performance and gas mileage.
I've read about other road sensors that light up as cars pass them and stay lit for a short time, which could be handy if there's a car in front of you just hidden around the next curve or over the next hill. I could see the possibility of combining that application with the readers. If the lights and the readers are both supposed to be ubiquitous, then combining them in a single package would save money.
For around 2 decades my Email address was also public knowledge (my first Email@ was on a Multics system connected to the Arpanet).
Lies. Your slashdot ID is 6 digits.
we're about to get compulsory biometric ID cards
:)
*Puts on tin hat*
Ever wondered what the "Anti-Fraud" barcode printed on the back of EVERY sheet of your postal vote is used for?
Why has nobody thought of this
*Takes off tin hat*
I've been reading too much Slashdot.
In April the German c't magazine claimed that all recent TUeV stickers on German car number plates contained RFID tags. This fortunately turned out to be the April fool's joke but only a few months later it threatens to become reality.
So: Never joke about things like this, somebody may think it's a good idea....
I live in the US, with public transit being a variable commodity. In Boston, where I went to school, public transit or bikes or walking was sufficient and cheap enough to get you almost anyplace that you wanted to be in the city. Most of the time, I didn't care (and I couldn't drive anyway). When I had job interviews, however, particularly in the suburbs, PT came to suck hard. The local trains go about 30 kph, guaranteeing that your transit time is measured in hours; in addition, the trips usually involve at least one transfer; thus trips that might take 30 min. to an 1 hour driving take two hours by train, time that doesn't get spent anywhere else.
Now I live in Columbus OH, where all we have is buses. If you live near OSU, or on High Street, life is good - you can get a bus in reasonable time, and get downtown. If you live anywhere else or need to go further out into the suburbs, however, you are hosed. Transfers galore, and time waiting for the bus at each one. This is not the only place where this is true - I lived in Trenton, NJ (a fairly dense area) and experienced similar problems. I took the public transit for a year to school. I couldn't get to school on time ever, I had to leave my (mandatory) running practices early to get home (or walk three miles home or get my dad to pick me up). The driver on the first route was nice, but most others were variable - often the buses came late, sometimes not at all. A route that took 30 min. direct takes 90 min by bus (one way).
While public transit is useful, it depends on a densely populated area to work well (to have enough service to be convenient as a car replacement). Even then it uses time that can't be used in other ways. Some may use the time well, so that it doesn't hurt much. For lots of people, riding the bus or train displaces time with family or time doing tasks (homework, running) that can't be done on the bus or train. Time is not fungible - we only have so much of it, and we can't get any more if we use it all.
Why shouldn't it cost more? Well, in the US, we probably don't pay all of the costs our cars impose, but in Europe I had always figured the opposite - I thought that most places paid at least twice as much for gas ($4/gal or $1/L) and that most of it went to taxes. Most of the $2/gal in the US goes to taxes, much of which goes to direct car costs (roads and pollution). If the money for your gas (and licences, and fines, which most people also pay) is twice as much, I imagine that a chunk of that money is going to things other than auto- (or transit-)related costs, which means that cars are subsidizing activities for others. If the costs of driving (mainly pollution, whose costs are difficult to accurately assess anyway) to drivers don't equal the costs imposed on others, then the costs to drivers need to increase. Otherwise, the cars are paying their own way. Property damage is already assessed - through insurance, fines, and lawsuits. Crowding is a variant of pollution - a cost which is difficult to discern, but possible with work. You could get around with taxis here, too, but that requires wealth - depending on how far you go, a decent cab ride will run $10-$20 each way, and that's not exactly financial sensible for anyone not already wealthy.
Cars aren't perfect solutions here - their availability (and the cheapness of land) means people build out, and PT becomes even less of an option. Worst case is California, where commutes grow long (unless you're wealthy) and there is no alternative - buses take even longer. There are subways (SF/Oakland, and some of LA) but they only cover a limited area. There are places where cars aren't needed, but they require money, and lots of people don't have that, either. In a place where land is cheap, cars allow more land to be used. Unfortunately, in either case (plentiful PT in a dense environment or endless roads and cars to fill them), poor people are out of luck - people with money will hold the places amenable to easy access. Cars here make for long commutes, bu
My car was stoled just over a year ago. We got onto the police pretty much straight away, but it was gone. Bits of it were found weeks later in a dodgy part of a nearby city - they had a search warrant on a house, looking for bits of another car which had been stolen at gunpoint, and found the steering column and other bits from my car.
Now, if they had gone out fairly promptly to the local ringing shops, and sat outside with their RFID reader, they might have found it before it was cut up. But then on the other hand, ought they to be required to get a search warrant before snooping for RFID tags?
In GB, we are pretty well protected by the Data Protection Act from many of the abuses which would be possible now: I will often drive home from work about 100 miles averaging nearly 100mph, and neither the engine management records in my car nor the rapid transfer of my cellphone signal between cells has resulted in my getting points on my licence.
D.
WARNING! Your car is currently broadcasting a license plate number!
The ability to catch speeders with older and even much more primative technology has been there for a while. There was once a proposal to use the timestamped toll tickets to automatically catch speeders on the NY State Thruway until it was realized that state legislature representatives would also automatically get them on their way to Albany. That's why your state reps have special plates. It's not for vanity, it's so the police can recognize them and not ticket them for speeding. The process has to remain manual because that's the only way unofficial exemptions can work.
So? Kindly point out the link between having an account on a Honeywell Multics machine in 1984 & the date at which I discovered slashdot and created my account here.
Sheesh, RIT, must really have gone downhill since I grew up in Rochester...
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Perhaps - but don't truely free people have the right to travel?
In Britain, this might be a different case, but in America, it is a different story. Part of it lies with how automobiles are purchased, part of lies with licensing, and part of it lies within our Constitution.
There is both a Constitutionally and case law recognized "right to travel". It is rare that you find someone in court over this right - looking at various cases that have been fought and won (some involving the idea that automobile licensing violates the "right to travel") clearly show that our lawmakers *hate* this little inconvenience - they would rather that we be penned up like sheep for slaughter, it would seem.
Vehicle licensing seeks to restrict this "right to travel" by invoking the ideas of taxation for road usage (the poor have no right to travel?), or safety reasons (yeah, a license really shows you are a safe driver - hah!). Furthermore, the way we purchase our vehicles also affects this - because most buy vehicles on credit, and the original copy of the MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin), which is the actual manufacturer's receipt to you to show you own the property - goes to the licensing department of your state - you are supposed to get it back when you finish paying your loan - but you never do, at best you get a copy, if that. The only time you could ever see your MSO for your car would be if you bought it with cash from the manufacturer directly (*not* through a dealer). But then your licensing bureau (MDV, MVD, etc) would still want it so you can get a license. In the end you don't own your car - the state (or a combo of the state and the bank if you are still paying on a loan) does. It has long been recognised that free men are allowed to own property - but not property that allows them the right to travel?
One could still make the argument that "this doesn't violate your right to travel" - you still have your feet, or a bicycle, or a horse, or something (ie, how did early settlers travel?) - but even this isn't possible today in America, and probably not in many other parts of the world where free travel is allowed. Why?
Because in most areas, it is illegal (for many reasons, some of them good) to walk or bike along interstate throughfares. It is impossible in many cases to avoid these roads, simply because to do so you are likely trespassing on somebody's land (the states or Feds paid money to the private landowners for easements for the roadways). No matter what you do, it seems, you are breaking the law if you try to exercise your right to travel free of the restrictions imposed upon you by the State.
Can a free man be truely free if he can't travel freely (or own the property that enables him to travel)? Is a society composed of these supposedly "free" members truely free?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
where YOU are driving? Are you important?
... should take care of that nusiance.
a license plate in the UK. They're called Number Plates.
Stupid fucking Americans
I myself have been driving for fourteen years, and have, in my collection of speeding tickets, a ticket for going 85(mph) in a 35 (Delaware bridge off the Jersey Turnpike, wtf is the speed there 35? Anyone? Anyone?)
In addition, I have, as of right now, zero wrecks.
It passes the point where you can just shrug and say, "Oh, thats just luck." I've seen more wrecks caused by some moron going 30 miles UNDER the speed limit than I have by people going 30 over.
The assumption that speed = danger is utterly false. The problem is, when you couple poor judgement, inattention, and sloppy reflexes with speed, then you have a problem, but those things are problematic at ANY speed. The solution, then, is to remove the bad drivers.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
This confirms what most of us have been preaching for the past couple years: sensitive RFID scanners can operate from a considerable distance. Recall the RFID industry spin some months ago about how this technology was only very-short-range and that you needn't fear someone scanning your credit cards or the items in your house from a distance? Utter bullshit. We knew it and now this license plate scanner proves it.
A scanner with a 300ft range would allow me to scan your home's contents from safely down the street so that I can decide whether your house is worth burglarizing.
How is the RFID industry going to spin this? Are they going to say that only the "good guys" will possess scanners capable of this range? How long before someone hacks together a homemade scanner with similar range (or steals one from an "authorized" user)?
For just $499, I will scan your car and fry all of the RFID tags for you.
http://nwbagpipes.com/
They are not going to put battery powered RFID tags in shirts and toaster, you fabuously stupid pile of shit.
Does anyone make some sort of wireless RFID Tag Destruction Device? I'd imagine anything with an antenna can be fried without physical contact somehow. I did a quick search on google but didn't find anything.
As soon as RFIDs start appearing in everyday products, I'd buy one.
Suppose they will use RFID to issue speeding tickets. And since RFID as far as I know don't need a power source to be transmitting, would it not be possible that this scenario take place?
You car, on the back of a tow truck being hauled away. This tow truck driver decides to speed through a checkpoint. POW. Your RFID on your car gets tagged as speeding along with the tow truck. A week later, you get your fine without ever having been in your car.
People HAVE been "up in arms" over this invasive technology for years and years, and you know what happens? People said it was "tin foil hat, it'll never happen" etc. I say that because it hasd happened to me, over and over again. Step by step by step, all the bad crap that was predicted (by myself and thousands of other people clanging the alarm bells) has been proven TRUE, despite being called "luddites" or "paranoid". I had so called intellectually hip total morons as late as two years ago SWEAR that RFID tags would never be readable past a few inches maximum, or that they wouldn't be put in everything, or the tech was not good enough to be used for data mining of tracking, or that the thought that cameras everywhere would never happen, etc. I distinctly remember being told I was SO wrong and yada yada. check out drudge right now, big article about new cams going up in baltimorte 24/7, all over, because "we are at war now". Phooie. Cameras everywhere, chips in everything, the government and so called "law" being totally yanked away from the average person, the news a globalist propoganda and brainwashing arm more than anything else.. perpetual war for perpetual profits. Big brother loves you, and etc. We have always been at war with eastasia and.... more lies.
Double phooie, it's happening, and really,really fast now.
This stuff is EASY to predict, it IS the implementation of a complete and total big brother slave society. And that is a carefully picked word, "slaves". That's it in a nutshell, taken as an aggregate. The good news is FINALLY more than a few people are sounding the alarm, but man, it's been rough to deal with it.
NOW, RFID tags in "stuff" is coming, it's here now, no one stopped it, because it was new and shiny and and geeky and "the war on...." whatever various scams and shams, and it is ALSO coming in the form of forced embedded RFID tags in your person. It is GOING to happen, because people will not say no to it, they will wait until it's too late. They are doing it to the military first, the order followers by choice, then cops, then everyone else so that the enforers, the globalists muscle, can say "WE got the chip, now shuttup and take yours, or else".
Or else. "Or else" that's the "stick" part. Now all you got to be is accused, that's it, some brainwashed bozo just declares you a non person, an "untermenschen" and you are 100% screwed. That's here NOW and it's "legal".
This is so freakin easy to see coming. And it was easier when they started with the gun control crap, they have to disarm their victim populations first.
I got no easy answers to it. I know I was warning people decades ago, telling them then to just say no, to pay attention to what is going on, to STOP supporting the criminal gangs that hijacked the nation years ago, to stop cooperating with them and to exert a smidgen of ethics and moral control and common sense when they did business.
Nope, football and video games and various other bread and circuses "entertainments" and staying half drunk or stoned all the time seem to be more important to most people. We have MORE people now aware and active in resisting, but it's still a small percentage, but we DO have the net, so that's a good thing. Maybe it will be mitigated, I still don't think so, not when the goons manipulate the money and can make anyone a criminal by merely writing new laws.
At best I can say I will resist forced chipping, and try to avoid as many products as I can with tracking/data accumulating chips in them, using any means necessary, and I recommend the same to anyone else, that and refusing to work for "the man" if I can use the old phrase here.
We had a better one in the 60's, "you are part of the problem, or part of the solution", basically, there are *no neutrals*.
Sorry, make it (penalty / probability_of_getting_away)
That's funny. German publisher Heise's premier print magazine c't had an article about these already being implemented in Germany. Of course, that article was this year's April fools joke in c't. Not really surprising that at least one government is already pursuing this further. Yikes.
You forget the fact that the data on the plate will be encrypted and, theoretically, will be only readable by the gov't. This greatly diminishes the potential for abuse (at least by the private sector, the gov't will surely abuse it themselves).
Have you ever asked yourself, Is It Normal?.
Even marxists should have a problem this kinda of excsessive tracking. Marxists should be concerened about all the evil things a corporatist facists can do with this information if they hold government power. An right wingers should be concerend about all the evil things marxists could with it if they are in power. Mao's China or USSR would have loved RFID tracking of people's movements.
To go along with these instrusive schemes, is to gamble people you don't like and think are unscrupulous will NEVER be in position of power to abuse the information to their own ends. History shows this to be a bad bet.
With all the complexity of highway RFID, I don't think a 300 ft distance is realistic. Heck, the local expressway authority had quite the time of getting their Transcore read antennas to read a windshield-mounted Type II active tag at a distance of about 16 feet at 65MPH.
But 300 ft at highway speed from a license plate? I don't think so...
Q: "Why do sound techs say 'check 1, 2'?"
A: "Cause if they could count any higher they'd be lighting techs."
You don't have to get your car inspected in every state...
Right! The one you live in is all you need. Or else Delaware.
I don't have a moment to dig it up right now, but I remember that Slashdot posted awhile ago about a professor that experiments with cyborg technology. One of the ideas he proposes for dealing with video surveillance is to give everyone a camera. Then the balance of power is even: the state can see you and the public can keep an eye on the state.
So I would say, you want an RFID tag on my car? Fine. Then I want to be able to find out where every police and government official's car is and how they are used so that I know my tax dollars are being spent responsibily.
I want to know if the cops are sleeping in a parking lot at 3 am when they should be on patrol (e.g. if the patrol car isn't passing RFID readers on the roadways indicating that they are moving around, then why weren't they?). I want to know if government officials speed and obey the laws in my town. Are they taking their cars out of town for any reason?
I should be able to get a reader and I should be able to request the traffic data. I have no problem with RFID tags being used to monitor traffic data. Real-time data about traffic jams would be very helpful. It would also be nice to have hard data justifying the need to widen roads.
This info won't be abused if the state knows that the microscope is on them just as much as it is on us.
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In X-Windows the client serves YOU!
No, you make cheap little devices seed them all over England and trigger them at a particular time to emit code to do a buffer overflow and execute code in the cops car, take control of it and then dispatch them to kill all the evil terrorists in the _insert evil corporation here_. Make sure they are seriously confused, do it all over England.
Rinse.
Repeat.
What you don't think the computer system from a police car hasn't been stolen and completely dissected? You should be able to find out if one has been stolen. Shouldn't you?
I am very worried abut being embedded in any road...
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
Ya, I'm sure it would suck to loose your independence and have to be carted around on someone else's schedule and pay extra for the privilege.
Sux to be you it appears.
Oh, and I don't agree its not a right to drive. I pay taxes to build the roads, and at least in our country we have a right to reasonably 'pursue happiness', and in today's society that would be unfairly difficult with out personal transportation. Perhaps it's a bit of an interpretation on my part, but I guarantee many will agree.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
In an ideal world with a non-corrupt government, it doesn't seem like that big of a problem to give them the ability to track our every day movements. In this case, all the arguments like "if I have nothing to hide, what should I worry about" make sense. However, in the real world, all governments have some level of corruption. We may be comfortable with the level as it is *now*, but the scary thing is what happens if we give our government all these ways to track us, and then the level of corruption increases? That's a scary thought. Besides, just because you are a good citizen and don't typically break the law doesn't mean you want to be tracked and have someone else know where you are. There's something nice about anonymity. And to address all the people saying that driving cars shouldn't be a right - that's great, but cars are one of the easiest ways for an *individual* to get around (esp. in big countries like the US) without being tracked. The allow you complete freedom to drive from point a to point b stopping anywhere along the way that you desire, which is not something that's possible with public transportation. Maybe it's okay to use public transport on you day to day trips to the office, but if you want to go out and explore your world, then you really need a car.
"A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving." -Lao Tzu
Well for one thing, I plan to get a bunch of these RFID tags, encode them with the ID's I read from all the passing-by city folk, and then inject the tags into squirrils, coyotes, and prairie dogs. Every so often I'll round up a bunch of the critters and let 'em loose in different parts of the county. Have fun tracking, big bro!
Everyone go take a close look at that Euro 2004 flag they have attached to the car!
,mn,
Gulp
Refresher:
Kinetic energy, KE = (0.5)(M)(v^2)
So,
Cadillac: KE = (0.5)(4000)(50)^2 = 5000000 units
Mini: KE = (0.5)(2000)(100)^2 = 10000000 units
So the mini would have to travel ~71 mph to have the same energy. I'm not working out the units 'cause I hate the imperial system for this sort of thing. And yes, I'm an American. I'm also an engineer.
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.
How big is the antenna? 300 feet range???
Even though the ID is secure, the encrypted data must somehow differ from plate to plate. With that in mind, I figure a corporation could use the information somewhat like a web browser cookie you can't erase.
Maybe when I drive through Burgerland twice a week and get my Super Bacon Deluxe Combo, the next time I pass a sensor on a stretch of road with a specially designed billboard it will target me with an ad tailored to my taste. Or while I'm on a road trip it will tell me where the nearest Burgerland is, mmm! I'm gonna go build a tinfoil hat. Hey look, tinfoil is on sale at Groceryland!
In the UK they have number recognition cameras over the motorway so you can be timed over long distances. Swines.
Was a bitch to move to a state that does (LA)...
Los Angeles is a city, not a state. LA is located in the state of California, which requires cars, motorcycles, and RFID tags to be registered and also inspected for emissions, noise, and RFID tags. This is true also of motorcycles. RFID tags are, fortunately, banned.
You clearly are not a US citizen, or you'd be aware of these simple, obvious facts. I am appalled and disgusted by the way you foreigners shamelessly engage in such deceptive shenanigans.
Incidentally, Arkansas has more than one resident; your use of the singular possessive again betrays your absurd ignorance of our great nation. Arkansas has, in fact, several thousand residents, many of whom know how to drive.
If car manufacturers embed a RFID tag somewhere in the vehicle that broadcasts the vehicle's VIN it's virtually tamperproof. The police can still enter your license plate any way they want to and verify that it's legitimate since the license was made out against a particular VIN.
Blab all you want about privacy. Yes, your car and the things in it are subject to various rights and securities from search.
BUT, when drive that vehicle on the PUBLIC road system, you do so subject to the regulations of the government. If the traffic engineers and transportation planners (of which I am one, for a US state DOT) need to track vehicle speeds, origins and destinations for real time or planning studies, you are obliged to either be governed by such regulations as enable these analyes and monitoring to be conducted, choose another mode of transport, or violate the law and be fined accodingly.
It is no differnet than driving without a permit, or with broken brake lights. The governemnt has the authority to regulate how you use you vehcile and what equipment it must have, once you leave your property. The public benefits of certain equipment on autos out-weighs the petty concerns of cavailing anti-social obstructionists.
A tracking system like this could really facilitate the development of good origin - destination studies for use in the development of long range transportation plans, and for real time systems monitoring, especially in major metro areas.
I can see how you may have difficulties comprehending my position.
Precisely. That's why we need to stick RFID tags all over you - we can't find you. Yet. And stop scratching your butt, it puts our operatives off their lunch.
Sincerely, The Government
Because the UK police collect them.
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/lie.html
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Criminals already clone license plates from one vehicle and put them on stolen vehicles of the same make/model/colour. The innocent owner of the cloned plate is the person who gets all of the speeding tickets, London congestion charge and parking fines.
There's absolutely no reason you couldn't look for another car of your make/model/colour, grab the RFID number with your scanner and set up a transponder to return that number to the police/government scanner. To combat that you have to start using challenge/response systems and that needs a CPU and power supply to do the encryption/decryption on the license plate itself and that's getting ridiculous.
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I would ALMOST be ok with this happening in the US if there were a licensing structure implemented and people who go through more rigorous licensing procedures get to drive faster and on a wider variety of roads. I think this would significantly reduce the number accidents caused by poor drivers, and it would keep my insurance down because I'd get fewer tickets.
There would also have to be some pretty hefty checks and balances, so to speak, to prevent this from being abused by law enforcement, but the ability to track my stolen car would also be very nice.
Would this put the makers of lo-jacks out of business?
`which fortune`
My girlfriend is a good, but cautious driver. 10 years (her total time of driving) without any traffic infringment. She gets very freaked out when people speed right up close to her, and go past her at high speed. Sure, you may be a numero uno Formula One racing driver in control as you go past her at 140 but if this puts her off her driving you are still partly responsible for causing a crash.
Also, what about little kids running out into a street to chase their lost football? Do you promote the idea of competant drivers being entitled to travel at high speeds through urban/suburban areas?
Boy I can't wait to see whether you can hack those tags to show "tomato soup traveling @ 100 mph" instead of my car's plate.
So how long will it take the gov't to realise that they could just put RFID tags or similar devices in speed limit signs along with equipment in the car to just automatically issue a citation upon the immediate breech of speed limits, etc.
Traffic violations are just another source of revenue for police departments; at least in the US.
Just how far will we the people allow this type of thing to go?
IF they can they will, you can bet on it. As soon as it's not cost-prohibitive, which is to say as soon as technology advances some more (which it will). I don't understand why people defending RFID focus on the technical limitations as a defense. It's obvious to me that any technological problems will be overcome very quickly.
I also don't understand why you're so apparently insecure and unconfident in your opinion that you feel the need to hide your identity behind anonymity and obscenity. If you've got a real rebuttal I invite you to make it.
They will never stop until somebody makes the
Where the crimminny blink do you live? There are increasing numbers of freaking traffic lights everywhere 'up north'. I am sick of sitting at red lights in the early hours while a road empty of cars has the green light.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
I agree, which is why I get real confused about people complaining about speed cameras in a variety of areas. There's one near my house, monitoring a 30mph speed limit, about 200 metres from a school. Why do people get upset the police etc want them to travel at less than 30mph near a school? I'm trying to work out if people have a philosophical issue with what speeds they should be allowed to travel at, or whether the issue is about allowing another individual to monitor whether they obey an agreed maximum speed (i.e. allow the idea of society applying laws to them).
Blair, Blunkett and friends seem hell bent on a) making everyone a criminal and b) making all the new criminals easy to fine.
They'd have RFID tags in our fucking *heads* if they could.
What's the excuse for this anyway? Does it catch paedophiles, or stop terrorists? Presumably it's one of the two because they're the reason for every little step along the road to complete govt/big business knowledge and control.
I know I sound paranoid, but really I'm not. I know we already have no privacy, and that things like this really make no difference. I just hate the idiots that run this country, and will take whatever opportunity I get to explain why.
"Honey, I had a minor car accident today. Luckily, nothing was damaged except the number plates."
"What happened to your plates, sir?"
"I was in the carpark and I ran into someone, and someone else ran into me from behind."
"A gang of youths went on the rampage today, doing minor damage to parked cars in the area."
Hmm, and how many more such "accidents" will we see? Only time will tell....
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
The conspiracy is already upon us.
The government has been secretly placing special citizen tracking devices on our streets and sidewalks for years. These devices have the ability to watch your movements remember your face and even communicate your location with other devices. I have recently discovered through the freedom of information act that this device network is called the Citizen Oppression and Persecution System or C.O.P.S for short. The devices themselves are easy to spot. They are between 5 and 6 feet tall, ususally wear all black and carry a gun. Beware...
As a bicyclist, I welcome more accountability for drivers. It kills me (figuratively at present) that the average person has the capability to accelerate a 2 ton object to 45mph (avg, I'd say) or well over 100mph; hit me, and drive away with absolutely no accountability for their action. It seems to me issues of privacy could be easily ironed out to great benefit to all. I think we should hold our politicians (yes,I laugh here too) to putting the technology to appropriate use, and not forfeit useful technology because we don't.
It should therefore be made absolutely clear that driving, being a PRIVILEGE and not a right, and occuring on public roads, one cannot have any expectation of privacy while doing so. And just as it is perfectly legal and acceptable for anybody to note that they have sighted such and such vehicle at such and such place, it should be the same for any governmental authority, and they perfectly have the right to automatically collect information regarding the whereabouts of vehicles rolling on public roads.
There.
Sorry, you're mistaken. Nowhere in the article did it state that the system would be off limits to non-governmental users. This is a large part of my complaint. Besides, as others have already stated, the encryption WILL be broken. Unless there are CLEAR GUIDELINES & LIMITS on it's use & penalties for it's abuse, I (& many others) will deactivate the RFIDs before ever leaving the curb.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
>>force you to mind every little detail of the law
You have to do that anyway as a good citizen. But real freedom is being free to break the law if you make a reasonable decision to do so knowing full well that you may pay the consequneces.
If no one broke the law then laws would never be tested for their fairness.
A mathmatician has devised a new measurment system, which is based on the decimal system. Strange name though, Metric.... I don't know if it'll catch on though, feet are just so easy to work with.
Speeding is not necessarily dangerous. I'm something of a 'fast' driver and have a squeaky clean record after almost six years of driving......I do recognize that energy is a function of mass linearly and of velocity geometrically, but cars are going 'fast' anyway so the difference between 60 mph and 70 mph in an accident is going to be pretty minimal.
Tell that to the parents of a child hit by a car travelling at 40mph/65kph in a 30mph/50kph zone and took 70% more distance to stop. I'm sure they'll see your point of view.
in groups of more than 6 people freely?
encrypt your documents and not be forced to give up the key on demand by the government, and be found guilty of an offence if you don't/can't decrypt them?
i live in the UK, and i'm constantly amazed at the invasive loss of civil liberties the labour government's inflicting on us. still, last nights local election results is a finger in each eye to them, at least.
we seem to be leading the world in tiny, thin-end-of-the-wedge legislation that slowly but surely potentially criminalises just about anyone.
it reads your number plate, and consults the DVLA database to see if the car that corresponds to that registration has got a valid tax disk.
RFID sensors are *way* cheaper than cameras, both for installation, and more importantly in terms of processing resources required to identify a car - no vision problems, just nice simple RFID tags.
So your plate is detected as KEVIN instead of K3 VLN? If not, I can't see the boy racers going for it...
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
...is that the only readable computer magazine in Germany, the c't, wrote an article on how to foil these things. Seeing as they're being used already.
Turned out to be an April Fools joke.
Two months later the UK thinks that these things might be a great idea...
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
License plates can be abused in a very similar way. My company designed a system to regulate access to private car parks based on recognise the number on the car's plates. It was a simple system based on a trivial MLP neural net, and worked reliably on stationary vehicles 98% of the time.
I've visited trade shows looking for people with similar products... they have much better ones if you're willing to pay the price. I saw one which could read the plate of every car travelling at up to 90mph on four lanes of motorway in real time.
The London congestion charge system shows that your movements can be tracked already. And it could be done much more cheaply than the London system -- they needed something that was approved by the Home Office for automatic evidence handling.
Encase your plate in transparent aluminum.
Great. So now your terrorist just has to find a route their target regularly follows, grab their plate RFID, and park a van full of fertiliser somewhere on this route. Create a detonator using an PDA and RFID reader and leave the country. Could be a week later (or more) that the victim drives past for the last time...