Boston's Big Dig Delayed Because of Programmers?

dalewj writes "This article in the Boston Globe explains that Boston's Big Dig will be ready to open on time, if the software developers and cable layers can get their act together." Turns out honeywell's software isn't quite ready.

Comments

honeywell

[Triumph The Insult C]

them, be ready? that'd be a surprise.

oh, wait ... this is for the BD. i'm surprised that they are complaining they are behind schedule on something.

Re:honeywell

[Anonymous Coward]

Having once worked for Honeywell, I can tell you that it's NOT unusual for things to be behind schedule. I never actually saw a project that was ON schedule while I was there... *shrug*

Re:honeywell

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez... Honeywell hasn't changed. They are still the same mismanaged pansy company they've always been. I can't remember any single manager ever being straight up with the customer, everything is always a half-truth or embellished to cover up serious management and project estimation problems. They have a talented workforce, but unbelievably spineless, two-faced management. And it only got worse after they merged with AlliedSignal.

Big Mess.

[Anonymous Coward]

Boston's Big Dig? Heck, that's America's Big Dig with the amount of money the US taxpayers shelled out for it. :-) I wish they'd throw billions of dollars into my city and redo all the roads for us too.

Re:Big Mess.

[Havokmon]

I wish they'd throw billions of dollars into my city and redo all the roads for us too.

You need weasly city planners.

For example. The federal govt WILL help pay for Interstate and intrastate highways. Around here, there's a lot of renaming of roads so the feds help rebuild/repave them. They do have to be used as 'Hwy 200' for a certain period of time before they can become eligable, but it's a way to get more money to widen/improve an older road.

Either that, or the people who setup the road system did a really poor job. Considering I sometimes have to wait 25min for a train by my house, on a 4 lane intrastate hwy, I wouldn't entirely rule out past incompetance.

Re:Big Mess.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish they'd move the Big Dig to your city too. Trust me, the Big Dig is no present. My 20-mile commute can take up to an hour and 45 minutes, thanks to the Big Dig construction!

Re:Big Mess.

[Alien Being]

"You need weasly city planners."

The Reagan administration vetoed the fed funding for this project calling it a huge pork barrel.

Our senior U.S. Senator, a big fat pork expert, managed to push it through.

Whenever there's a bridge in the news, you can expect to see the name Ted Kennedy.

It's supposed to end?

[IPFreely]

I thought the Big Dig was supposed to go on forever.

Re:It's supposed to end?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me get this straight. It's costing about $14 billion right? With that kind of money, couldn't you just build a road AROUND the city or over it on bridges? Who the hell had the bright idea to tunnel under it? What's next, a tunnel from Boston to Washington, D.C. so they can smuggle more of our tax dollars out of there?

Re:It's supposed to end?

[Pulzar]

Who the hell had the bright idea to tunnel under it? What's next, a tunnel from Boston to Washington, D.C. so they can smuggle more of our tax dollars out of there?

Duh. Is the road from Boston to Washington covered with buildings that are blocking the way?

Re:It's supposed to end?

[connorbd]

The original plan was for several roads around it; someone mentioned 128, but there was also I-695 that was supposed to just skirt downtown. It was never built because it would have utterly destroyed a number of poor but vital neighborhoods, and because the inhabitants of those neighborhoods no longer trusted the Mass Highway Dept to take care of their interests (i.e. relocation, etc); there had been an awful lot of bad faith building the Mass Pike and the (old, elevated) Central Artery. Check out www.bostonroads.com for the gory details.

Boston's highway system (with the exception of the Pike, which has its own connected but separate history) was designed around I-95 and the Inner Belt, but two major segments of I-95 (Canton to the South End and Revere to Peabody) were never built (the segment that was built is now I-93 downtown and Route 1 north of Boston), and the entire system is a half-baked mess because the core of the system was never finished. Depressing the Central Artery is supposed to alleviate at least some of the resulting mess by increasing the downtown capacity to handle the traffic that the Inner Belt was supposed to deal with.

(And no, they can't build the Inner Belt now -- the northern ramps (built, but cut off -- a news crew once put up a prank sign saying "Out of town drivers exit here) now lead to Storrow Drive, one of the major roads that runs along the Charles River, and the southern ramps were demolished and replaced with a commercial-vehicles-only connection to the airport.) /Brian

Re:It's supposed to end?

[Steve Franklin]

I think the classic example of tunneling as an afterthought has to be the point on Route 1 in Philadelphia where it goes UNDER the subway. Now there was an engineering challenge.

Not that I'm running anybody down. I seem to recall the same kind of problem in SimCity 2000. Once those buildings are up, it really is a pain to put in a subway system.

Re:It's supposed to end?

[daoine]

And no, they can't build the Inner Belt now

I don't think they could *ever* build the Inner Belt. At the point where Rt. 2 merges from 4 to 2 lanes (where the original belt was supposed to go) you've got to deal with Belmont, Arlington, and Cambridge. There's enough money and politically active people in those communities alone to prevent it from happening.

Re:It's supposed to end?

[connorbd]

Actually, the Belmont/Arlington stretch was built I think in the late 60s -- I used to live in Belmont, and my dad used to be a Belmont cop when they were building it. That particular stretch runs from Lincoln to about the Belmont/Cambridge border, with another short stretch of what I think is original construction leading up to Alewife Circle. The Northwest Expressway (the first part of the system to be canned, before they killed the Inner Belt) went east from there to somewhere in East Cambridge, where it was supposed to connect with 695, and northwest through Arlington and Lexington to Burlington where the existing NW Expressway goes to New Hampshire. (They were thinking of building two more beltways -- one between 128 and 495, and one right about where we're talking about, but I don't think either of them got past the stage of being handed around in memos saying "wouldn't it be nice if...")

In other words, Belmont had already gotten smacked, and right through some fairly wealthy areas on top of that. Arlington was in for more (after MassHighway had moved the route southward once already). The brunt of the damage was to hit Cambridge and Roxbury, also clipping Brookline in the process.

The story was a little different south of Roxbury; that stopped because of similar political pressure, but by 1972 (when Governor Sargent killed everything but the part of I-93 that leads through Somerville and Charlestown) parts of the I-95 route were not only under construction but striped and near completion. They ultimately built the Southwest Corridor Park along the route, along with commuter rail and rerouted Orange Line tracks. (That fight was even nastier than the Cambridge fight; parts of the city threatened to secede in order to sabotage the project. Ultimately I think the only parts of that road that were completed (and ultimately torn up) were between Jamaica Plain and Roxbury, though what is now Melnea Cass Blvd from Roxbury to the SE Expressway was built along land clearances for the Belt.)

IMHO the Inner Belt would never have been built even if the highway projects hadn't been stopped (though the Southwest Expressway would probably have been completed eventually if Massachusetts hadn't given up the allocated highway funding); the "Evel Kneivel" ramps I mentioned upthread were probably wishful thinking by the time they were built, as was the gigantic pile of sand in Saugus placed in the late 60s that was supposed to continue I-95 to the north, away from the chaos of Route 1. /Brian

Re:It's supposed to end?

[Boone^]

but SimCity 2k only charged you $1 to raze a section. :) And eventually the residents got over it.

Re:It's supposed to end?

[Pulzar]

Yeah, the residents never seemed to care much about the destruction. That made it too easy to reorganize the city's districts at will.. which was fun, but a little unrealistic.

To raze a building, you should have to buy the building from the owner, first. That would make it a lot more expensive, and tougher, to clear out large sections of land.

Can't be "on time"

[Dubber]

The friggin thing is already 10 years of more late!
The dig was supposed to be done before I moved to Tennessee (1994)

Re:Can't be "on time"

[Anonymous Coward]

It's ironic that the work crews are on time and the geeks aren't. :)

And no, it's not behind schedule. The original plans were for 1994, but those got scrapped as the project got bigger and they realized exactly how long it would take. So based on the revised finalized schedule that was released about 1 year into the project, it's still on time. Sure, not on time based on the initial predictions which were way too optomistic, these deadlines are based on reality.

Re:Can't be "on time"

[schon]

no, it's not behind schedule. The original plans were for 1994, but those got scrapped as the project got bigger and they realized exactly how long it would take

So why don't they just ask the geeks how long the software will be, and then push it back again? :o)

Re:Can't be "on time"

[LordHunter317]

The work crews aren't on time either. Wherever you read that, including the offical webpage, is complete and utter crap.

Re:Can't be "on time"

[connorbd]

The official line is that this is the biggest public works project since, oh, the Roman Empire. I don't know if that's overstating it, but take a look at a map some time; the sheer size of the Dig is unbelievable. While it doesn't cover most of what now fits into the boundaries of the City of Boston, it's quite a bit bigger than the original Shawmut Peninsula (which was expanded by progressive landfilling to create what is now downtown, the North/West/South Ends, and Chinatown). /brian

take note

[vectra14]

hmm. you know your project's not going well when even your Minimal Operating Requirements list isnt finished.

Re:IWNRTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Boston's multibillion dollar waste of US taxpayer money to rebuild their highways. What does it do for those of us living in just about any other city? Nothing. Let's see.. what powerful congress critters live in Taxachussetts? Any murderers?

Waiting on Programmers?

[da3dAlus]

I thought the software was working fine? I mean, that little guy on the screen is going to town with that shovel...

OH, "Big Dig", I thought you said "Dig Dug".
Nevermind.

Re:Waiting on Programmers?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I thought the software was working fine? "

Is this a fucking question, retard?

Is there an answer?

No. It's a statement. Statements use periods. Any sentence that begins with "I think" or "It was" is going to be a statement. Too bad you weren't awake in 3rd grade.

The Big Dig

[(H)olyGeekboy]

I read about the Big Dig last year, thanks to someone's Slashdot .sig.

Read more about it here.

Basically, the thing has gone on forever, and will likely go on forever, thanks to beaurocracy. Blaming it on the programmers/cablers is probably little more than spin at best, or pre-election blame shifting by local "oh-fish-shulls" at worst.

The Big Dig is apparently a huge fiscal landmine that some people claim will never reap the rewards of the optimists who keep greenlighting the moneystream.

(On the other hand, I live far away, and am only going on a few websites' worth of info. So that's only one point of view. :)

Re:The Big Dig

[Zelet]

I had a friend that lived in Boston for a long time. The traffic problems are so bad throughout the city that the people of Boston (a majority) wanted this to happen at all costs. This is a huge undertaking and I wish luck to all those who worked to complete it. One thing that I am not sure about (I should ask him), is what is the mass transit like in Boston? Do they have subways and busses that are easy and cheap?

Re:The Big Dig

[Anonymous Coward]

> Do they have subways and busses that are easy and
> cheap?

Yes. Traffic would come to a complete screeching halt if they didn't exist.

Re:The Big Dig

[Frothy Walrus]

Most of us up here in Boston just want the damn thing to end. It's getting there -- they've finished the bridge and lots of ventilation buildings, and they are starting to close up some of the massive holes they've dug.

Mass transit in Boston is pretty good. you can go anywhere on the subway for $1, and the buses do a decent job of coverage too. The thing that sucks is that the subway turns into a pumpkin around 12:30am.

Re:The Big Dig

[Anonymous Coward]

The Boston mass transit system (MBTA) has the oldest subway lines in the country and is more or less useless as a result. It's $1.00 for subway fare, unless you're taking the green line in from the metro-west suburbs, where it can be more. The bus system and the commuter rails are expensive as hell if you take it more than 15 miles or so and you're using it for work every day. As far as the auto traffic goes, I've sat in traffic for more than an hour at 11 p.m. at night coming into from north of the city on I-93. Every day, all day, you're guaranteed to hit a ton of traffic anywhere inside the I-495 belt if you're on a major road.

Re:The Big Dig

[Shynedog]

The Big Dig has indeed been going on for over a decade now. As a Boston resident, I'm definitely tired of it. But to be fair, it's not behind schedule simply due to incompetant beaurocrats (although there are plenty of those). The project itself is the single most complex undertaking of civil engineering in the history of the U.S. Any project of this scale is going to have delays.

They actually have a pretty good website It has a really neat gallery of huge aerial photos, as well as some great maps of the whole thing. A good time-waster, if you enjoy looking at maps.

Re:The Big Dig

[markhb]

Boston has buses, subways, and commuter rail, all run by the T. For opposing viewpoints, take a look at ne.transportation[NNTP] [HTTP].

-- Rest of my .sig: "be the majority of voters"

Re:The Big Dig

[Anonymous Coward]

living in Boston, I can attest to the fact that traffic is a mess. However, the Big Dig is part of the reason for the mess. Also, according to some projections, once the Big Dig is finished the new capacity it creates will be just enough to deal with the growth in traffic expected.

As some people say: If you plant roads you will harvest traffic.

Also, in order to pay for all the cost overruns, the only good thing in my opinion, a new subway line, was cut down to a bus line. Bostons subway system is in urgent need of repairs and upgrades.

Re:The Big Dig

[dubiousmike]

Subway and bus system is ok, though at times of the day is far too crowded to even get on when it arrives. Where the "T" can't be found, buses can. The coverage is commendable. Having said this, you would think that its pretty decent.

But alas, I lived in Brighton (part of Boston - uses Boston police force) which is about a 10 minute drive from my work (near South Station, heart of Big Dig). For me to take pulic transportation to work, I had to use a combination of bus and "T" or just another bus that was few and far between. It would take me at least an hour to get to work via public transportation with either method.

This is why I moved an hour south of Boston and drive (or occasionaly bus) to work. My rent is now 1/3 of that in Boston and my travel time is the same as before. Of course, my commute also contributes to the traffic problem. I am 55 miles south - commute ranges from 60 to 90 minutes. Commute home can take longer at times.

FYI, there is a commuter rail that is planned to extend into the town (Fall River, MA) I live in in a year or two. This was supposed to actually be up and running by now. Unfortunately, the budget for the commuter rail is tied to the Big Dig as well. So when the Big Dig f's up and needs more money, they push back the expansion of said commuter rail.

Exasperating. :P

Re:The Big Dig

[Anonymous Coward]

The Boston mass transit system (MBTA) has the oldest subway lines in the country and is more or less useless as a result ... Every day, all day, you're guaranteed to hit a ton of traffic anywhere inside the I-495 belt if you're on a major road.

I understand and share your frustration, but your description is greatly exaggerated. The Green line, west of Copley, is the T's ghetto, but the Red line (north of JFK) and the Orange line are great.

As for traffic, a reverse commute on 90 (out to 495, or so) works quite well. I frequently drive to Salem, MA and New Hampshire by way of Route 1 and 95. Coming home at eight or nine in the evening is no sweat (but good luck finding street parking!).

Re:The Big Dig

[drunken monkey]

I believe the silver line (buses using alternative fuels) was put into place because a new subway was impractical to build.

What boston needs a line that goes in a circumference, cutting through and connecting the other lines which are radial, originating from downtown.

narbey

Re:The Big Dig

[dhogaza]

No, it's not just due to incompetent beaurocrats. This is Boston, after all, and there's been the traditional overhead of corruption, too. In fact, the dude who was project manager until one or two years ago has been blackballed by the Feds, i.e. will never be allowed to manage a federally-funded project again.

Not only did the project go over budget by a big chunk, but a big chunk has been unaccounted for (or was during the days when I was spending about three weeks out of every eight in Boston, days which came to an end 15 months ago).

No one knows for sure where all the money has gone, though anyone familiar with Boston is not surprised nor unable to make a few guesses.

Re:The Big Dig

[drunken monkey]

I agree, when I was in Watertown a few years ago (I'm back there again), I used to take I-90 heading west. It was great. It fact I got 2 speeding tickets on my way to work.

narbey

Re:The Big Dig

[Anonymous Coward]

Try coming into town from north or south of the city. I commute from the north and it is terrible until 6:30 or so Mon-Thurs and later on Friday. The T does suck though, it stops running too early, even in the middle of the day I've had to wait 25-30 minutes to change from the orange line to the red line at downtown crossing, and it really doesn't cover that much of the city. And don't get me started on the buses...

Re:The Big Dig

[monkeydo]

From the website:

The solution is called the Central Artery/Tunnel Project (CA/T) now under construction by the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority.

Shouldn't the abbreviation be "CA/T P"? Seems appropriate.

Re:The Big Dig

[pivo]

One major traffic problem that the Big Dig should help with is congestion due to automobile traffic to the airport or Route 1 from West or South of the city. I'm talking about the Mass pike connection to the new Ted Williams tunnel, which means that a majority of this traffic will no longer have to slowly wind it's way through downtown. This should be a major boon for many people, though it won't solve all the problems. This part of the Big Dig is on track to open in November of this year.

Another big improvement is that there are few exits in the new tunnel, so people going through town will take the tunnel and not have to slow down for people entering and exiting, and people going in or out of Boston will use the surface roads. Hopefully by segregating traffic this way things will move more smoothly but who knows.

The subway situation is, as you say, terrible. The worst crime of the Big Dig is the lack of North Station/South Station rail connection. I had to tell some scared young girls traveling by themselves at South Station the other day that they had to get on the Red Line, then change to the Orainge Line to get to North Station. They almost cried, and this situation isn't going to change when the Big Dig is done. I hate the silver line (bus) too, but at least it's an option where there wasn't one before.

Finally, I walk to work from Boston to Cambridge and I think more people should try this, or at least take public transportation. Even if it takes the same amount of time, riding the train leaves you free to read or play with Linux on your laptop. Isn't that better than sitting in traffic?

Re:The Big Dig

[goliard]

what is the mass transit like in Boston? Do they have subways and busses that are easy and cheap?

As a "car-free by choice" Boston-area resident: fuck, no.

The MBTA is massively erratic. Different lines (both bus and subway) get different levels of service. Most of the other commentators in this thread have talked about the Green Line, which is abysmal (runs *in* traffic on several routes). I live on the northern arm of the Red Line, which is fantastic; however, it splits into two southern arms which are, definitionally, half the frequency of the unified northern arm. Thus it takes a Harvard professor half the wait to get a train to Boston Common as it does a housewife in Fields Corrner, despite them both being "on the Red Line". The Orange line is fast, but is essentially a commuter line, connecting impoverished residental areas to downtown; at times it is no more frequent than every 20 min, and is usually overcrowded and filthy. And so on.

The busses are a valient attempt to make something work in what must be the most bus-inimicable metro area in the US. But they still suck. For comparison, the MUNI in SF publishes (or did when I lived there 10 ya) a massive book of bus schedules, to which the busses run, +/- 2 minutes; it had many "timed connections" throughout the city whereby one bus would not leave a certain stop until another bus had dropped of (transferring) passengers. That's inconceivable in Boston. There are NO timed connections, in the entire bus system. You have *no* idea when one bus drops you off when the next bus will really be along. Busses regularly get 5 or 10 minutes behind schedule -- in part because this is traffic hell, and there's nothing to be done about it.

Re:The Big Dig

[ostiguy]

Correct. One of the big debates is what to do with the "green spacE" that will be recovered when the central artery is destroyed, and this open area downtown results. No one seems to advocate affordable housing (I don't mean low income, I mean, 2 bedroom condos for under 250k). The space isn't contiguous - so people who advocate a model similar to the Ramblas of Barcelona, or more parks are crazy.

Boston is such a mess, and so bureaucratic that the only new housing is for the insanely rich because its such a bother to get anything built.

ostiguy

Re:The Big Dig

[dubiousmike]

I would also add that Universities being such a huge part of Boston, that students have also played a big part in the increase of rent in the area.

When looking for housing, plan on competing with students for it, including internatational students who seem to have more money than God.

If you don't secure a place to live in May, you will have a difficult time finding anything other than a complete sh1thole for $1500 a month ($2000 if you want 2 bedrooms). Don't forget that you will pay at least $100 a month for parking.

Re:The Big Dig

[jnik]

I'm not a Boston resident (but I intend to be so within a year and have visited a bit). It's painfully obvious that the Dig is necessary to reunite the North End with the rest of the city...good on its own merits and gets the historical stuff connected with downtown, making life easier for the tourists. In the meantime, of course, the situation is worse.

As far as the overall effectiveness of the T, I've been pretty impressed. It's cheap and works; beats mass transit here in Grand Rapids hands-down of course, but also bests the CTA (just got kicked off the L this weekend "no trains further north tonight, sorry") and, IMO, the Washington Metro--which is pretty nice but infrequent and expensive.

Re:The Big Dig

[ipjohnson]

2 bedroom condos for under 250K ... which "boston" do you live in?

Re:The Big Dig

[Anonymous Coward]

I am 55 miles south - commute ranges from 60 to 90 minutes. Commute home can take longer at times.

Your joking, right? I used to live about 12 miles from my work in Tyson's Corners (N.Va), and my commute times were 30 - 45 minutes. Anyone who's speed during the average commute even approaches the speed limit has no cause to complain.

Re:The Big Dig

[dubiousmike]

Ah. My wife's family is from that area (about 20 min). I find that although Mass drivers are crazy, they can at least drive fast. Washington area drivers are pretty awful. It can snow a half an inch and traffic nearly stops. I don't envy you, even though that's a beautiful area.

I wasn't complaining about my current commute though. I was complaining about how getting around Boston pretty much sucks and I can live an hour away, save money and still have nearly the same commute time.

Re:The Big Dig

[RegularFry]

Yeah, we get that in London, too. Except it's not as cheap. Every so often, some politician or other tries to bring the idea of a 24-hour tube service to the table, only to have it swept away by the next scandal.

Just a side note, as I

[BigBir3d]

was growing up, I lived in Denver CO. Honeywell was very big there in the '80s. It was widely known that they (Honeywell) could not be trusted for much, aside from sending bills. This is not a surprise (BD problems).

How is this technology and programming that they are doing supposedly doing new? Is this not the stuff of any underground base? How many underground installations are there in this country with a similar setup? Was Honeywell involved? If not, who?

Too late now of course...

Project Management

[SexyKellyOsbourne]

Though government waste -- and that's what the entire project is -- is always bad, at least in this instance they're looking out for the public's safety, unlike private corporations that often neglect to do so.

Project managers unable to handle scope creep may demand unreasonable schedules, but thank Cthulhu in this instance that they are not deploying the code ahead of time and deciding to patch it later!

Re:Project Management

[LordHunter317]

That not true. The code is deployed in two phases, Phase I, which is jsut enough to make the roadway work; and Phase II, which is what we need to make the roadway completely functional. A new version of the software is installed in field about every 2 months or so, though it will be less once the roadway opens (as we can't afford the down time an install takes).

Re:get some more

[iceman80231]

No, get rid of the existing h1b's and put the Americans they fired back on the project.

Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[wls]

I don't understand how the software developers are holding up laying of the infrastructure. One would have thought that the software would be fairly independent of the media on which it operates.

It can happen

[tiltowait]

Remember the Denver airport opening delays because of the baggage system bugs?

Re:It can happen

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah, like that's the real issue at Denver Airport...

favorite quote

[skydude_20]

Larry Bossidy, the just-retired CEO of Honeywell, one of the Dig contractors that may contribute to delayed openings of the tunnel sections, is in town tomorrow to give a speech at the Marriott Long Wharf to promote his new book. The title? Funny you should ask. It's called "Execution: The Discipline of Getting Things Done."

Re:IWNRTFA

[DLWormwood]

Why is it assumed that every article on /. pertains just to you?

The Big Dig is a massive highway tunneling and reconstruction project to solve some of the serious gridlock problems Boston has. Since Boston competes with New York for convention attendance, this is relevant to many business travelers. (And MacWorld was once held there, and my be held there again.)

I know this, and I'm not even from there! You see the Dig mentioned regularly on other news sites from time to time; been going on for years now.

Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because of the Federal Aid Highway Act (FAHA) of 1956. Impressed by the autobahn's usefulness during WWII, Eisenhower wanted the same thing to be available in the U.S. in case the damned Russians ever invaded and we needed to move a lot of troops quickly. All major cities and their airports were supposed to be accessible, and the Big Dig was funded because it connects I-90 to Logan airport. The tunnels are also able to withstand heavy conventional bombing. Pretty damned cool.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[sphealey]

Comeon, dude. The Interstate Highways were indeed funded as a defense project - in the 1950s. The situation changed a bit in the early 1970s when US metro areas went from the "1 car + public transportation + ankle wagon per family" model to the "number of licensed drivers + 1 autos per family" model of transit. In case you hadn't noticed, this produced a big increase in the number of cars on the road, and hence traffic.

Boston was hurting in a big way (pun intended) due to trying to cram 1980s traffic down 1700s streets. Something had to be done. Whether the Big Dig was the right thing or not, and how efficently it was carried out, can be debated. But let's not bring poor old Dwight into it!

sPh

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Big Dig is also an attempt to fix some of the massive problems caused by the original highway system which destroyed many stable urban neighborhoods.

The highway projects of the 60s carved up cities and destroyed tax bases from coast to coast. We're only now coming to grips with what it has meant for living patterns.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[stratjakt]

Actually, the Eisenhower dollars were to be meted out back in the 50's and 60's.

Boston had already jumped the gun, and spent their own cash building their SkyWay, which turned out to be an utter piece of crap.

So in the 70s they realized it was worthless, it divided the city in half, was ugly as hell, and couldn't support anywhere near the amount of traffic they had. So they came up with the idea of moving it all underground.

Now, they couldnt afford it. So they went to congress with the notion that "hey, we didn't use up our eisenhower dollars, so you can give them to us now".

Critics noted that Eisenhower wasn't president anymore, and the dollars for the Interstate plan at the time were a 'use it or lose it' type of thing. Many cities and states didn't use their entire allotment - they can't just go to congress now and ask them to pony up the dough.

They got preliminary approval, but then Reagan scrapped it, calling it pork-barrel politics. Which it was.

Funding was eventually re-approved, and here we go. Pissing away billions to correct a localised inconvenience.

Most non-bostonians call it the Money Pit.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, I like Ike as much as the next guy, but I was merely pointing out the precedents that allowed the Big Dig to be federally funded. And I do realize that Boston's status as the "hub of the universe" ;) helped her curry favor in D.C.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[avoisin]

The tunnels are also able to withstand heavy conventional bombing.

Clearly, this is a design claim that needs to be tested. I'll call the military.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[TheReverend]

Funding was eventually re-approved, and here we go. Pissing away billions to correct a localised inconvenience.

Yeah, but it pays my salary, so I'm happy with it ;)

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[ashultz]

I've always thought of it as "our local answer to corn subsidies."

At least we're not being paid NOT to build a highway.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[Anonymous Coward]

I replied to a similar statement earlier, but FAHA set the precedent for federal funding of interstate highways. A desire to remain compliant with old strategic plans and the usual politics secured the funding. It's no more of a "money pit" than the various agricultural subsidies of the Mid-west. Non-Bostonians are just envious that they don't live in the "Hub of the Universe." Heh.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[John Harrison]

At least we're not being paid NOT to build a highway.

Actually, that is exactly what happened. Boston didn't want to make the sacrifices needed to have a real freeway going through downtown. Now they come up with the idea of an underground freeway, to not have to relocate anyone. This is crazy. Instead of having to make the hard decisions, billions upon billions of dollars are spent on a luxury that is only affordable because the federal government is funding it. If every city decided they wanted to move their freeway underground at great expense do you think that MA would support it?

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, are a luddite. If you ask people across the US whether the interstate highway system was a good or bad idea, the approval will be overwhelming.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not from Massachusetts, are you?

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[ashultz]

Boston already has a real freeway running through town. In fact, Boston is probably the reason your downtown doesn't - it was demonstrated to be a dumb-ass idea.

And Massachusetts already pays out for subsidies in your state anyway, so yeah, we do support it.*

*This is guaranteed no matter what state your from. Foreigners may feel free to feel smug until they look at their own governments.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[John Harrison]

My point was that when funds were offered earlier to make a improvements to the central atrery and they were refused because Boston didn't want to tear down any buildings in exchange for a better freeway. So they purposely didn't build a normal freeway when given the chance and now billions are being spent.

There is no way that Big Dig style projects will be approved again. The Big Dig is a well recognized fiasco. There is no way that the federal government would allow a project of such magnitude to be paid for in each state simply to keep some buildings from being torn down. They'll tell them to tear the buldings down and have the people relocated. This is what happens in freeway projects elsewhere.

In fact, Boston is probably the reason your downtown doesn't

While we are at it, I live in Brookline, so I consider downtown Boston to be the downtown nearest to me since I regularly walk to it.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[ashultz]

You must not spend much time downtown. I'm pretty glad that they didn't take the money to tear down other buildings and keep the elevated highway. It's an amazingly horrible structure.

Boston built the present highway a long time ago with state money. You would have preferred them to take federal money to build _another_ elevated highway? Or to increase the size of the present one? I'm so glad you weren't in charge.

And as far as I can tell, the Big Dig is only a fiasco fiscally. As far as construction, it's running pretty well, it just costs more than they originally said. I would, however, bet that it doesn't cost more than the original instigators thought it might, they just couldn't get that passed.

I'm looking forward to when the highway goes down and we have more park space downtown. Once that happens, I think we will see it done in other cities with similar layouts to Boston (there's no point in trying it in LA, too many highways and too little dense downtown).

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[smithmc]

Do you have any idea what it would have cost to relocate people instead? Have you ever ''seen'' where I-93 runs? Imagine trying to build a ground-level freeway through the middle of Manhattan, for instance.

Re:Why Federal $$$ Are Being Used.

[John Harrison]

$20 billion is a lot of money. Besides that, it wasn't as built up when the money was originally refused.

Not reassuring

[catfood]

Says the Boston Glob article: "Project engineers are more optimistic than the auditors."

Oh. Okay then.

Tolls

[Tycho]

So how much will it cost to drive on the highways in Boston after the Big Dig is completed? And why did everyone else in the country have to pay for something that will potentially not be free to drive on?

Re:Tolls

[crow]

Actually, the tolls are going up on other highways. The Big Dig is mostly I-93, which will remain free. The tolls have already gone up on I-90, and are projected to go up again later. The only part of the Big Dig that will have tolls is the new tunnel to the airport. I expect they could do the accounting to say that that tunnel is the part that the state paid for.

Though I would much prefer higher gas tax an no tolls whatsoever. The Mass Pike is a huge patronage system that exists primarily for the sake of providing perks for the powerful and connected. (Note, for example, that they didn't reduce the number of tolltakers when over half of the cars now use automatic EZ-Pass style transponders.)

Re:Tolls

[Anonymous Coward]

The tolls on the mass pike have almost doubled to make up some of the lost money for that waste pit in boston. I live in Western Mass, and personally I feel the same way. I'm never gonna use the god damn thing. I want to find a picture of what it was before the dig, I really dont think whats there now could be worth all the money thats been wasted on it.

Re:Tolls

[Atzanteol]

Many of the tolls on the Mass Pike (I-90) have already been doubled due to cost overruns. This has greatly upset people because those who are coming from the west on the Pike aren't the ones who will be gaining an advantage from the Big Dig.

Local politics are going nuts over this...

Re:Tolls

[tyen]

I'm never gonna use the god damn thing.

As long as Massachusetts citizens continue to embrace welfare pork barrel politics and voting professional looters into office, don't act surprised when shit like this happens. Same goes for all the other states in the country.

Re:Tolls

[drunken monkey]

a toll free exit from I-90 near boston:

exit 17 for Watertown

narbey

Re:Tolls

[crow]

Yes, there is one section that you can travel on without paying tolls. One of the Pike's directors has been saying that every time a car uses that exit, the Pike loses money. They're pushing to get tolls put on that exit (apparently there used to be tolls there some years ago).

When I'm elected supreme dictator of Massachusetts, I'll disband the Turnpike Authority and use gas taxes to fund the roads.

Re:Tolls

[Planesdragon]

Yes, there is one section that you can travel on without paying tolls. One of the Pike's directors has been saying that every time a car uses that exit, the Pike loses money. They're pushing to get tolls put on that exit (apparently there used to be tolls there some years ago).

The westernmost stretch of I-90 is "zero-cent toll." When we drive from Albany to my mother-in-law's, we get a ticket a few miles past the NY/MA border, and then hand the ticket to a real person when we get off.

The RIGHT way to do this would be to scrap all of the "zero-toll" booths and build one "everyone stops" booth midway through the state. Or to charge tolls (even small ones) for the western stretch.

When I'm elected supreme dictator of Massachusetts, I'll disband the Turnpike Authority and use gas taxes to fund the roads.

When I am granted supreme godlike power and rulership of the world, remind me to 'elect' you as supreme dictator of MA.

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[Peyna]

That mindset is part of the problem. Most likely what happened was they needed something done a different way than originally planned, and since they assume software is the easiest to change, they put the burden on them to conform to everything. My guess is they tried to separate the software from the rest of the system and just assume the software would be easily able to change and keep up with everything else as needed, when instead they should have been developed together and treated as parts of a whole.

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[TheReverend]

That's pretty much what's happening.

Why Should You Care?

[N8F8]

If you are an American a decent chunk (>$13Bil) of FEDERAL tax dollars has gone to pay for the "Big Dig" boondoggle in Boston. If you are looking for a reason why the Federal Government should be neutered from anything that isn't Federal in nature, this is it. If you want to know what the future is for a Democratic Party run government, this is it.

Re:Why Should You Care?

[daoine]

a decent chunk (>$13Bil) of FEDERAL tax dollars has gone to pay for the "Big Dig" boondoggle in Boston.

That's likely due to the fact that the road involved is Interstate 93, which is grossly incapable of handling the current traffic loads through downtown Boston. The fact that it's an Interstate means that the Federal Government funds a portion of the construction.

Re:Why Should You Care?

[N8F8]

Yeah, building a subsurface highway through downtown Boston was definetly for the convenience of Interstate travellers.

Re:Why Should You Care?

[daoine]

Actually, it is.

I93 runs from Northern NH straight through Boston to I95. It is also currently a parking lot for most of the day/night. Funding the Big Dig is quite akin to what *will* happen to the Atlanta Connector within the next few years. Interstates that run through major cities get enormous amounts of trucking and car travel. They need upkeep.

Re:Why Should You Care?

[Blob Pet]

uh...Most of the budget overruns and scandals surrounding the Big Dig have occurred during the tenures of the last 2 and the current Republican governors of Massachusetts...Bill Weld and Paul Cellucci, who sometimes will admit that they could barely keep a straight face when confronted about the overruns, and Jane Swift, who went bezerk and fired a couple of Mass Pike Board members who refused to raise tolls. They were eventually reinstated by the Supreme Judicial Court, but not before one of them Christy Mihos - a Republican - ponied up his own money to ensure Mitt Romney got the support for the next gubernatorial race....Good times.

dam GCOS field again

[zenst]

I bet its all down to that lovely GCOS field and what to do with it these days (reas /etc/passwd format if you want too know more on this lovely field and no it has no relationship to that lovely OS in the 80's called GCOS that ran on DPS hardware). You can bet this would never have happened with good old COBOL/TDS and a cluster of level 66's.

Re:IWNRTFA Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing is, the democrats threw out the republican mayor's plan because it catered to special interests and here we are almost 20 years and BILLIONS of federal tax dollars later and all we have is a bunch of democratically controlled special interests digging a big hole. Gotta love it. Those self-righteous bastards.

Of course..

[stratjakt]

Like any gigantiforous project thats so overbudget as this, the programmers are the first to get scratched, in favor of another backhoe or bulldozer.

Then they're the first to be blamed when the entire project is late.

Unlike the other aspects of this project, they can't gauge progress or work yet to be completed based on tons of dirt moved, or number of steel beams installed.

So when Skeeter McPencilneck comes along to audit the project, he can't see a little progress chart with solid numbers, and of course its the software team to blame.

I'm reminded of a story one of my prof's told me, slightly off-topic but shows how 'real world' managers deal with coders.

Some General was overseeing the design and creation of a new fighter plane, and was busy going from team to team measuring the weight of every last nut and bolt used so he could nail down the operating specs.

So he gets to the software control team, and asks them "how much does your part of the system weigh?"

The team replies "Well, nothing sir"

The General is incredulous and miffed at the answer. He storms around the office until he finds a pile of punchcards. He holds them up and says "A-Ha. These have weight! You lied to me."

And the team replies "No, sir. The software isn't the punchcards - it's the holes in them"

Sidebar:

That city should have had to just stick with the useless skyway they pissed away all their dollars on. What a waste.

Lots of cities have terrible traffic problems. I'm stuck halfway between Baltimore and D.C., both could use a new multi-billion dollar traffic infrastructure.

Re:Of course..

[Allaria]

That city should have had to just stick with the useless skyway they pissed away all their dollars on.

FYI: It is the only main highway that goes through the city. It is condensed down to two lanes at a point in the city. At the moment, it is faster to take surface roads with tons of lights to get through the city than it is to go on the highway. Unless, of course, you're driving at 2am. The population is growing. Chances are, in a few years, you wouldn't be able to get through at 2am cleanly.

Re:Of course..

[bluestar]

Lots of cities have terrible traffic problems. I'm stuck halfway between Baltimore and D.C., both could use a new multi-billion dollar traffic infrastructure.

And when the Big Dig is finished, and Baltimore, D.C., Manhattan, Detroit, Chicago, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. see how cool it is, they'll know how to do it because we'll show them how.

Re:Of course..

[ipjohnson]

Actually software progress is or atleast should be very measurable. There should be goals and milestones set periodically and if you meet them your on schedule if you miss them then something needs to be corrected (i.e. schedule , man power, etc. ).

I work large contracts all the time and thats how we measure progress.

Re:Of course..

[ikewillis]

Yes, adding more people to the project, that'll bring down the development time.

You work "large contracts" yet you've never read the Mythical Man-Month? For shame...

Re:Of course..

[Dokta_C]

Errrrm, no. In London we've decided to ban private cars from the centre of the city.

Re:Of course..

[blibbleblobble]

"And when the Big Dig is finished, and Baltimore, D.C., Manhattan, Detroit, Chicago, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. see how cool it is, they'll know how to do it because we'll show them how."

It's quite cool to have a city small enough to walk across during a strike on the underground trains.

All we need now is excellent train links to the rest of the country. Oh, wait!

Yep, you can take your car to London. Pretty strange idea though. Anyone who needs to get anywhere uses the underground, and anyone who really needs to get somewhere uses a bike or motorbike.

I tried walking around US cities; they're no fun!

Re:Of course..

[Jay L]

Lots of cities have terrible traffic problems. I'm stuck halfway between Baltimore and D.C., both could use a new multi-billion dollar traffic infrastructure.

Well, D.C. at least is getting a nearly-a-billion-dollar infrastructure improvement: the redesigned Mixing Bowl.

Re:Of course..

[Ultraken]

That's why you want to have plenty of milestones; if you start slipping on early ones, you still have time to correct understaffing and other problems. If you miss the later ones, then MMM definitely applies.

Big Dig? Delayed?

[frenetic3]

Inconceivable!

The Present AND Future For The Republicans:

[Anonymous Coward]

Is available by going to:

Chump-in-ChargeShack

Be Patriotic: Smoke Amerikan Grown Tobacco and Marijuana!!

big dig

[darwin0001]

Any one else think there is some sort of hidden government bunker underneath it all? I

Re:big dig

[Anonymous Coward]

There isn't. A bunch of my friends in the laborers union (Local 22 represent!) worked there. It's just a boring old tunnel.

Clean Air

[linderdm]

I know this isn't exactly about the article (software related), but I saw a television program on Discovery or TLC or something recently about the Big Dig, which described the ventilation system would make the air INSIDE the tunnels CLEANER than the air OUTSIDE!

what caused this delay?

[k3v0]

it does take quite a while to read all the EULA's for any MS components in the loop...

more like:

[Frothy Walrus]

1. Sell out your construction company to an Irish mafia project
2. Chill out for about 20 years. Take your time doing anything. Make sure you hugely overstep your price quote.
3. PROFIT !!

I-93

[Anne_Nonymous]

I-93. Where else can you park in downtown Boston for free?

MORON

[Anonymous Coward]

There already *is* a road around it (Rt. 128, 8 lane highway for the most part) and I-93 (6 lanes in Boston proper, 8 lanes in the suburbs) *is* basically a bridge over it. These did not alleviate the problem, so they decided to dig a tunnel to help.

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Proof that what I learned 2 weeks ago in Software Engineering is indeed accurate. =]

It's funny. Laugh.

[Betelgeuse]

Boston's Big Dig will be ready to open on time

This is quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read on slashdot. "Open on time"?!?!?!? How can you say that for a project that is already years behind schedule and billions (or maybe just millions) of dollars over budget?!

Regan the democrat....

[MosesJones]

Err that well known "Democratic Party" Candidate and President Ronald Regan signed up to the funding of the Big Dig, funding was continued by another Democratic leader called George Bush.

See those things waving at you in the distance ? They are the Facts, wander over and see them some time.

Re:Regan the democrat....

[MagikSlinger]

See those things waving at you in the distance ? They are the Facts, wander over and see them some time.

It is a well established fact that the Republican party and the Facts are well separated. The Democrats are closer to them, but just keep their eyes closed and keep an imaginary version of reality in their mind's eye.

Re:Regan the democrat....

[AlgUSF]

I don't know who tought you American Government/Civics, but doesn't congress do appropriation bills?

I believe the Dems held congress during the Regan, and Bush(41) administrations. It was probably like "Mr. President, we won't pass your defense appropriation if you don't pass our pork barrel highway through Boston".

Re:Regan the democrat....

[Xerithane]

...funding was continued by another Democratic leader called George Bush.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Re:Regan the democrat....

[leviramsey]

Yeah, and Reagan was a Democrat, too.

You think the parent was being a wee bit sarcastic?

Think, McFly, think!

Re:Regan the democrat....

[Anonymous Coward]

He was being sarcastic, duh.

More roads

[YrWrstNtmr]

Building more roads to combat traffic congestion is like buying a bigger belt to combat obesity.

Re:More roads

[TheWickedKingJeremy]

Funny - but true... Cure the symptoms instead of the problem.

As a Boston resident it is painfully obvious that a fraction of the cost of the Big Dig directed towards building a state-of-the-art train system would have been far more effective, and long-term, solution.

Re:More roads

[dubiousmike]

where can I get one of said belts? :P

Re:More roads

[Saeger]

Yeah, sometimes treating the symptoms is more profitable than curing the cause.

e.g.: the U.S. inching towards a police state and manufacturing consent for GulfWar2 in order to combat the "evildoing terrorists", rather than reexamining years of arrogant foreign policy that pisses these millions of people off while we pretend to think they're just "jealous" of our freedom.

...Okay, I'm done.

--

"bureaucrats"

[YetAnotherAnonymousC]

I don't think anyone on Slashdot can spell "bureaucrats" (I had to use the dictionary)
So let's just call them "crats" or, if you are 133t, "crat$" (notice, I am obviously not 133t)

So this isn't completely Offtopic: Yes, the Big Dig is really just a jobs program.

who cares - what is really important...

[AssFace]

is that traffic still sucks. as long as I can blame that on programmers, then I see no need to worry.

I think every city should have massive holes in the ground that reroute all city traffic in spastic patterns for years.

otherwise, life just gets boring.

The sun will burn out in 2.5 billion years...

[Thatto]

They'll have to finish the dig by candle-light...oh yeah it's a tunnel Absence of the Sun shouldn't affect it. SHOULDN'T...

Earthquake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe it or not, Boston is on a major faultline that is well overdue for a decent earthquake (6.0-8.0). (I remember in the 80s they believed it would hit before 2000).

The best part is...Boston is mostly on landfill, my guess is they should worry about mother nature a little more since all it'll take is a few minutes to wipe out the years and years of work and billions of dollars spent.

I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[LordHunter317]

The problem is not the programmers. Its the **** software we were given to work with.

The problem starts with the fact that we are the second contractor to pickup this problem, and we are required to adapt the first contractor's software to our needs. The software we have been given to work with is shoddy, badly coded, and still targets VAX C (even though it runs on an Alpha). Problems tend to crop up, and no one here really understands the system, including our contractors from the original system.

We also have all sorts of problems hiring (due to problems both on our side and their side of the table). We are never given enough money or time, and everyone here is vastly overworked.

The CA/T (Central Artery/Tunnel, or the BigDig) doesn't understand our needs or concerns, and getting help from them and their reps is like pulling teeth. Its like going to a frickin' Wrestling match, with petty arguments and name calling and bullshit all around.

Their requirements are frequently illogical and unclear, meaning time has to be spent on fixing the requirments that could better be spend on coding. We have all sorts of reliablity problems with the Alphas and assoicated hardware. It also takes about a pound of paper work and 3 days to be able to do anythign to the production systems in Boston.

The project is just one political mess, and to be honset, we are the CA/T's bitch, and get blamed for anything. The truth is that ev eryone is behind schedule, and that even if we are late deliviering, it will not matter because the tunnel will not be physically completed anyway. Kinda hard for the software to work if there's nothing out there for it to work with.

Ok, enough ranting for now. Feel free to reply or e-mail questions.

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[drunken monkey]

thank you for some of this inside info and perspective.

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[rodbegbie]

Forgive me if I misquote:

* It's not our fault, it's the previous contractor's.

* It's not our fault, it's management.

* It's not our fault, it's the client.

* It's not our fault, the requirement are fuzzy.

* It's not our fault, it's the politics.

Well, bad news, bucko: Welcome to the software industry. You've just used up your quota of excuses. You cannot bitch about a project until the next fical year.

rOD.

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[Snotnose]

That finger pointing rings a bell. I used to work on Globalstar, the Qualcomm/Loral attempt at satellite phones. We had a huge deadline and there was no fricken way it would be met. We also had a launch of our first 12 satellites coming up soon. They were on a Russian Bird with something like a 25% failure rate. We all watched the launch live. When it, ahh, forgot to deploy the satellites before hitting the ground we all looked at each other and had looks of relief. Sure enough, Russia took the hit for G* being 6 months late, when in fact nothing from software to the antennas to the phones were ready yet.

I still think they picked a known faulty booster to ensure the finger of doom pointed away from "the good guys".

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[TheReverend]

Luckily we don't have any other projects to bitch about.

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[poot_rootbeer]

The problem is not the programmers. Its the **** software we were given to work with.

Oh come on, four-star software sounds pretty good to me. You're scoring it on a five-star scale, right?

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[dillon_rinker]

time has to be spent on fixing the requirments that could better be spend on coding

If time would better be spent on coding, shouldn't you just code to the requirements you're given?
(grinning, ducking, and running)

Clever sig

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[LordHunter317]

Unfortunately, its all true. Everyone here is doing their job on time. Essentially, we end up waiting on everyone else so we can get their work done. Its sorta like I can't build a house if I don't get my wood on time. Well, I have plans to build the house, but no wood to build it with. Believe me, if everyone else did their job we'd be done Phase I by now.

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[TheReverend]

Except it wouldn't work at all if we did that ;)

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[LordHunter317]

Try coding this (rough example as I'm under NDA):

Req 1. The polling time shall be 3 seconds, and shall not be able to be changed.

Reg 3457. The standard polling time shall be 3 seconds, and be configurable by the operator.

This is a REAL example. Which one do I do? Huh, punk? Feelin' lucky ;)

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[Anonymous Coward]

Would be interresting to know in which language(s) the stuff is written...

Anyone?

C#?

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[plumby]

I'm asssuming that you are also in the software industry. If we all take the attitude of 'well, that's the way the industry works, tough', then it'll never change. I get sick of people telling me to stop whinging about things that are wrong on the grounds, that 'that's the way we do things around here'.

If it truly is someone else's fault (having not worked on this particular project, I have no idea whether it is or not), then why not whinge about it, until the other people sort themselves out? I've complained loudly to senior management about at least half of those problems on various projects throughout my career, and I've (eventually) managed to convince them to fix most of them. Don't be such a defeatist.

Re:I'm a programmer in BigDig...

[TheReverend]

mostly C/C++, think there's some Fortran stuff left over, and some DCL scripts.

Fred Brooks on Projects...

[pjdepasq]

Does the Build One To Throw Away principal apply to projects like this?

Re:Fred Brooks on Projects...

[Alien Being]

Apparently it does.

The original central artery was built as an elevated roadway which divides the city, looks horrible, and sucks to drive on.

The big dig *is* v2.0. The complexity of this project is mostly due to the fact that it is being built on and around the existing patchwork (v 1.99.99 ?)

The web page looked fine

[puppetluva]

I guess everyone figured that the software was working fine because the Big Dig web pages all said "Under Construction."

Misunderstanding

[Anonymous Coward]

Turns out the Big Dig was a big ol' misunderstanding. They were trying to dig up enough talent for the Red Sox to win a pennant...

Re:Misunderstanding

[connorbd]

We've got two twenty-game-winning pitchers (and a few other really good ones on top of that), at least two of the best batters in the majors, a front office that now actually gives a shit since the team was sold, and the Sox are still out of the playoffs. There ain't enough talent in the world to get this team past friggin' July, never mind to the pennant. /Brian

$5,000,000 contract available

[HillClimber]

And they still need more help... The "Security Contract" is still open for bidding. It includes video surveillance equipment and a 400 Gig DVR. Anyone interested?

Re:$5,000,000 contract available

[GigsVT]

400 Gig DVR

Hrm, My house has 120 GB of digital video survelliance camera recording time...

Seems like a pretty weak system for the money they are offering. From what I read there, that contract shouldn't be worth more than 500,000-1,000,000 tops, and that's being generous.

Re:$5,000,000 contract available

[Sloppy]

Heh, then go for it! :-)

Somehow I have a hunch that if nobody has touched it yet, there's probably a good reason.

Re:$5,000,000 contract available

[GigsVT]

Good point.

Re:IWNRTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

Rebuild their highways?

Putting railings on bridges, I hope.

Facts back At You...Veto Override

[N8F8]

Kennedy, Senator Edward M. -

U.S. Senator who ensured the passage of the Surface Transportation and Uniform Relocation Assistance Act of 1987. This act included the federal funding for the Big Dig. President Ronald Reagan had vetoed this bill earlier that year. The senate voted to sustain this veto. Senator Kennedy allied with West Virginian Senator Robert Byrd to force a revote in the senate to override Reagan's veto. The revote was approved. At that point Kennedy and others put pressure on the deciding vote, namely, Senator Terry Sanford of N. Carolina. They threatened to pull tobacco subsidies to North Carolinian farmers. Under this pressure, Sen. Terry Sanford changed his vote and the Big Dig bill became law in April of 1987.

Re:Facts back At You...Veto Override

[Anonymous Coward]

Burn!

Re:Facts back At You...Veto Override

[spoon42]

Boo. Surely some of the credit goes to Bud Shuster, former PA Representative. ("Former" due to some bribery or other scandal.) Who, as chair of the Transportation Committee, got more highway improvements for little hick towns on US 30 than for, say, Philly.

Fuck politics.

Mod parent up.

[TheReverend]

I'm a programmer on the project also, he got everything exactly right.

Re:Mod parent up.

[Anonymous Coward]

He got everything right for every project I've worked on.

Maps and Pictures

[Grip3n]

If you're not familiar with what the Boston Big Dig is, you can visit:

http://www.boston.com/beyond_bigdig/ (Warning: Flash) for extensive information

or the 'official' web site at:

http://www.bigdig.com/ for more information

Yet you have time to read /.

[gatkinso]

Get back to work, you.

Re:Yet you have time to read /.

[TheReverend]

We're multitasking :p

Re:Yet you have time to read /.

[LordHunter317]

Lunch break you fool. Lunch break.

Besides, I'm only the intern. Its not like I'm important *rolls eyes*

Re:Yet you have time to read /.

[Thomas Charron]

Well, as someone who drives around Boston from time to time, I can say..

If you can multitask, then you can be doing twice as much work..

*Whipping sound.. Drum beats..*

Re:Yet you have time to read /.

[TheReverend]

you can be doing twice as much work

Doesn't mean I want to ;)

Re:Yet you have time to read /.

[Thomas Charron]

Tell me your make, model, and licence plate number.. ;-) We'll find you. After all, it's all your fault that the hole took years to dig. Shesh. They scooping dirt, and what are YOU doing? READING ./? How DARE you!

Re:Yet you have time to read /.

[TheReverend]

I doubt that me reading slashdot had any effect on the actual digging :p

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[LordHunter317]

That's roughly exactly what's happening.

As we perfer to say:

We're their BITCH!

Re:IWNRTFA

[smittyoneeach]

What does it do for those of us living in just about any other city?

Excavates your wallet.
Kinda chaps your quiddick, don't it?

Presidents DON'T control the budget

[Brian_Ellenberger]

Congress controls the budget, not the president. Congress was mostly controlled by the Democrats at the time the dig was approved.

The President only gets to sign or veto whole spending bills. They have little control over the specifics. Presidents can send it back and say "you have spent too much" but it is politically impossible for him to say "take this out, put this in, take these 3 things out, put these two in". That is why I wish the President had a line-item budget veto. A Republican congress tried to give a Democrat president (Clinton) but was overturned on Constitutional grounds (probably for good technical reasons). But I wish they would amend the Constitution on this one.

Brian Ellenberger

Ummm. how about this...

[psxndc]

Maybe the Big Dig is delayed because the workers were going out to bars on their lunch breaks and getting tanked. Fox News ran a story (can't find it online) on it about a year ago. The constructions guys were having like 8 or 9 beers and then going back to work. Lovely

psxndc

Re:Ummm. how about this...

[Anonymous Coward]

thats common in the northeast.
I live in RI, when my house was being built, wed come to check on the progress, there were always beer cans everywhere.

When we finally moved in we noticed crooked walls, inlevel surfaces, lots of things screwed up, even a door that opened the wrong way.

Hey Intern...

[TheReverend]

Our staple remover is broken down here, can you come down for a second?

Sure, blame the programmers.

[mesozoic]

Who cares that the project is already drastically overbudget and behind schedule? Does it really matter that there is evidence of money being skimmed off the top? Has anyone noticed that some of the subcontractors for the project have since gone out of business?

Nah. Just blame the computer geeks.

Re:Sure, blame the programmers.

[TheReverend]

Oh yeah, not to mention we've been given the most ridiculously obsolete software that we've had to adapt to this project... and the requirements change every few minutes, usually to something completely illogical...

Re:Sure, blame the programmers.

[janda]

...and the requirements change every few minutes...

You mean you actually get minutes between requirement changes?

Where do I send my resume?

Re:Sure, blame the programmers.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know for a fact that the big dig is one big corrupt mess. My cousin runs a tire shop that does a lot of construction companys tires. You tend to hear things.

Quote

[Eric Seppanen]

The IPCS work "controls the critical path to roadway openings," the Deloitte auditors wrote. "There is virtually no history available to determine whether the compressed [system and software] testing period that the Project hopes to achieve can in fact actually be achieved."

"Compressed testing period" means they're behind schedule, and they're going to cut corners actually testing their stuff. Bad bad bad.

I've never heard of a "compressed" schedule actually working. It usually means that the programmers submitted a schedule detailing how long things would take, and management turned around and rewrote the schedule to hit a specific target date. It means the schedule is a fantasy made up to satisfy some PHB.

I'D RECOMMEND YOU USE LINUX

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to be the answer to just about everything else.

I know my taxes go into a big hole in the ground..

[raehl]

But I didn't know the hole was in Boston.

Big Mess

[honkey]

I live in MA. I use to commute through that mess called downtown Boston (by car a number of years, and by train for many years). Imagine what could have been accomplished if the billions (or less) was invested in a well planned and efficient commuter train system. The subway is a piece of junk. You need a freakin' umbrella UNDERGROUND during a rainstorm. I wonder when the ceiling is going to collapse. Most stations are a total eyesore. DC's subway system is a dream in comparison. Ever try the commuter rail system? The thing runs infrequently at best, and is packed to the teeth. Just imagine.. a train with every seat full, and passengers standing in the isles like sardines. Its fun, especially when the guy you are sitting next to stinks to high heaven.

I was in Japan a couple of times over the past few years. Now.. thats a well oiled commuter system. Their trains are clean, efficient, and more environmentally friendly than these loud diesel spewing smoke machine Amtrak monsters they use. Most of all, the trains are FAST and ON TIME. Their schedules are like clockwork, no and's or's or butt's. If it says it'll be there every 3 minutes.. a train is there every 3 minutes. Boston's train sytem sucks so bad, they had to put in a refund policy. If your train is 20.. yes thats TWENTY minutes late, you'll get your one way fare refuned. Whee. So generous.Did I mention? I was chronically late at least twice a month due to a broken down commuter train. That includes the other some thousands of other commuters that were delayed too. Every summer.. get a nice hot day, BLAM. Dead train. Ever sit in a train for 1 hour with no air condidioning? It gets up to like 100 degrees+. That consistently happens.

Now.. by the time they finish the Big Dig, the sprawl growing outside of the city will proportionately increase automobile traffic. By the time they are done, they'll need to expand once again. So when are we suppose to see any benefit?

OK.. one good thing. My company moved away from the city. About 1 hour west. I now live in the sticks and have a nice commute. The day I moved was the happiest day of my life. :)

Oh by the way.. my father worked for the MBTA for a number of years.. and my wife's cousin works for the rail lines in Japan around Kobe/Osaka. Ever hear of a train that senses the number of passengers onboard, and automatically adjusts the airconditioning systems appropriately? Well.. they have it in Japan.

Re:Big Mess

[Eccles]

OK.. one good thing. My company moved away from the city. About 1 hour west.

Seems like this is the real answer. Why do you need so many people in such a small area? There's plenty of room in the country, just spread out a bit. But no, we squash together like sardines in small regions.

Re:Big Mess

[Rotten168]

Not a fan of controlling urban sprawl, huh?

To sum it up..

[nolife]

I think the statement from Sergiu Luchian, the Dig's Intelligent Transportation Systems Manager, sums up the multibillion dollar project nicely. He states "I think we can do it."
I doubt he had that attitude when he initially applied for his position.

Re:To sum it up..

[jo.cool]

Actually, it was more like this.

On the day of his job interview, they asked him whether he could do the job. But poor Sergiu didn't think he could do it all himself.

So he went to Bechtel, and asked the rich well-dressed CEO to help him with the project. But the CEO said, "Can't you see that I just finished a big highway contract in North Carolina? I have to sit on my hands and milk their DOT for maintenance work. Can't you get someone else to help you?"

He said "I'll try" and continued on his way.

So he went to MIT, and asked the smart old professor to help with the Big Dig. And the professor said, "Can't you see that I have tenure, and that I'm old and tired? I'd rather get lots of money consulting than helping you on your impossible project. Can't you get someone else to help you?

Poor Sergiu was sorry, but he went on.

After a while he came to Honeywell Corp. He ran up to the president's office and said, "Can you help me build the Big Dig? It's so much work, and I don't think I can do it all by myself."

"Yes indeed!" said the president of Honeywell.
"I'll be glad to help you if I can."

So off they went together to Boston, puff puff, chug chug,

"I think we can do it."

That's GECOS, mainframe-boy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pronounced GEEK-oss.

General Electric Comprehensive Operating Supervisor.

It's for print stream headers, and the DPS6 in my basement is currently running LINUX off a RAID-5 array.

--Charlie

Re:That's GECOS, mainframe-boy.

[zenst]

Very nice [anybody/company with Level6/DPS6 or higher like a DPS9+ - this is your man if you want too see your old kit put too good use]. Is there anywere that offers old mainframe shell's - personly I fancy playing with George III on ICL kit again. If only to use the term buckets again and relive my 1st ever hack (pre hack) wich actualy involved recreating a garbage file - seriously. as a user you could create files and not zero-fill them, and as such got the previous contents. Now with some fishing you can get the console journal logs and the admins password. God it was easy in those days - seriously }->. *runs of back too the safty of his BSD based platforms*

Re:That's GECOS, mainframe-boy.

[zenst]

PS forgot to add that in those days systems were not exactly at there MTBF as they are now. Cyclying the load of placment of logs on diskpacks was common to spread the load on the actual disks. Mainframes arn't as reliable as they are made out too be - they just except the fact that things go wrong in not only software (OS) but in the hardware as well. That and operator/administrators (same thing realy on the context of admins in those days ;) actualy worked for there money having to do alot of things that have been automated not thru software but thru the reliability of hardware itself.

Subways fine, "Trolleys" suck

[alexhmit01]

There are 4 lines on the Subway system, and all are based upon getting people downtown. The subways head downtown and out. Within each of the 4 colored lines (5 if you count the new Silver Line, which is a fancy bus at this point, but will be a legit extension to the Subway system in 10 years when completed) there are some splits, where they go to different, yet similar locations.

This was useful when all employment/shopping was downtown, but presents some problems as the economy spread from downtown Boston. If you are going anywhere that requires switching trains, you will be spending a minimum of 30-45 minutes on your trip. Busses can help with this, as they cut between different lines, but until a few months ago the route numbers weren't posted and the website remains difficult to use. While commuters can figure out the busses to simplify their commute, it simply isn't practical for an individual trip.

Beyond that, the system gets really slow. I live out on the Green Line, which is the most residential of the trains. After Kenmore Square, they become "Trolley lines" that are above ground, but have a dedicated area for their tracks. This means that the trains can't pass one another if one gets bogged down, and there is no meaningful way to run express trains.

The road system is a collection of disasters because of Boston's heritage. Boston is unable to rework their roads without shutting down the city, and an execessive number of buildings are declared historical, stopping progress.

On top of that, the elevated central artery, which the big dig will replace, cuts through Boston. Now ask yourself who would want to live right near a highway (and walk underneath it), and you realize why the Central Artery trashed the neighborhoods. Walking under a highway is a strange thing, and it cuts neighborhoods apart. This results in social costs in excess of the traffic.

Part of the problem with the subway system is that it is too slow. Even in Rush Hour, it is faster to drive then take the subways. If the trains go above ground (the Green Line), they are stuck waitting for lights like cars, and they have a 30 MPH limit (same as the official speed limit) plus they need to stop.

An additional problem is the system only runs trains once every 10 minutes (most busses are every 30 minutes). This makes the subway painful for short trips. If you are only going a few stops, you might spend 15 minutes waitting for the train for a 5 minute trip.

Boston has transportation nightmares. Unlike New York, that does construction at night, all road construction is done during the day in Boston, including during Rush Hour. The unionized workers don't have to put in overtime, so sometimes jobs will involve ripping up a street on Thursday/Friday, then MAYBE getting to fix it Monday or Tuesday of the next week. However, if it wasn't planned that way, it may be a week or more before they return with equipment.

The Big Dig will help with the highway crunch, but won't solve the general problems in Boston. The only nice thing will be if the Big Dig does enough, then people will take Highways (they'd be faster than city streets for a change) which might alleviate some of the other traffic. More likely, driving to work in Boston will be more pleasant, so people will get more cars bringing us back to the status quo.

Well, at least the friends of the powerful were able to buy all the slumlands next to the highway that is about to become parkland. They're going to make a fortune on those luxury apartment complexes that used to be crack houses or slums.

Alex

Re:Subways fine, "Trolleys" suck

[rob colonna]

It should be noted that the Green Line "D" trains to Riverside do actually have their own right-of-way that is unfettered by cars or traffic lights, and runs all the way out to Rt. 128. It's faster than the B and C lines, despite going twice the distance, as a result. They also do tend to 'express' trains occasionally especially on days where there are baseball games, although admittedly, this just means chugging through the stations slowly, ringing the bell and ignoring the glares of the people waiting. The T ain't the Metro in Washington, but it works. Some survey said that 25% of people in the Boston area take public transportation to work, which is apparently a very high percentage in the US.

Re:Subways fine, "Trolleys" suck

[Joseph Vigneau]

This means that the trains can't pass one another if one gets bogged down, and there is no meaningful way to run express trains.

They could get around this by "expressing" trains on the lines. For example, every once in a while, you can get a Red Line from Park St. direct to Harvard (skipping three stops). I've also been on a Green Line D train that expressed from Fenway to Resivoir. I have no idea why they don't do this more often, particularly for Sox home games. The killer is when the driver has to deal with a rider in a wheelchair: the operator has to get out of the train, find a manually operated lift at the station (which looks like it was slapped together by the kids at the local vocational school), wheel the rider onto the thing, crank it up to car-height, let the rider wheel on, and then crank the thing down, fold it back up, and put it away. This operation takes at least five minutes, thereby delaying all of the cars behind it. Some stops have ramps that help this somewhat, but the operator has to pull the train to the exact location of the ramp, etc. I have nothing against the wheelchair people, but the T should be doing a better job expediting this process.. Many of these transfer process are manual: for example, when a train starts its journey from the Lechmere stop, the operator has to pull the train up, get out of the train, find The Crowbar, and manually switch the tracks. This operation has to be done at least once every ten minutes, if a train leaves from the alternate set of tracks.

But, if a train does die on the tracks, they typically have "crossovers" every couple hundred of feet.. (This may not be true of the B/C/E lines, which run down Comm./Beacon/Huntington though.)

Unlike New York, that does construction at night, all road construction is done during the day in Boston, including during Rush Hour.

That's not entirely true... They work at night, particularly on Rte. 128, but sometimes up on I-93, too.

Re:Subways fine, "Trolleys" suck

[ostiguy]

All of the T is a two line system - that makes expressing and/or 24x7 operation damn near impossible. Repairs and dead trains mean irrecoverable loss of effective capacity.

Re:Subways fine, "Trolleys" suck

[Kaz Riprock]

Boston has transportation nightmares. Unlike New York, that does construction at night, all road construction is done during the day in Boston, including during Rush Hour. The unionized workers don't have to put in overtime, so sometimes jobs will involve ripping up a street on Thursday/Friday, then MAYBE getting to fix it Monday or Tuesday of the next week. However, if it wasn't planned that way, it may be a week or more before they return with equipment.

Not true. In fact, the MTA has gone through great pains and costs to work at night. One of the reasons costs are so high for the Big Dig (and something most people do not give it much credit for) is that in its initial plans, it was written that they would accomplish this monumental task with little impact on the status quo.

Quoting from their website:

The Central Artery project's unique challenge is the fact that it is being built in the middle of a city. Work of the CA/T project's magnitude and duration has never been attempted in the heart of an urban area, but unlike any other major highway project, the CA/T is designed to maintain traffic capacity and access to residents and businesses - to keep the city open for business - throughout construction. Highway projects of the 1950s and 1960s, when the interstates were first built, gave very little consideration to the communities in the path of the new roads, with disruption and dislocation the rule of the day.

I think they've done fairly admirably in this respect. To this end, they also have sound level testers who make sure that equipment used at night is run at a low enough level so as not to affect those sleeping nearby. They use specifically-designed shielding at the project where they work at night to dampen both noise and vibrations. In fact, maybe they've been doing such a good job at keeping it quiet that you didn't even think they were working.. :)

In the meantime, I also think a 15 year plan for a project this huge is reasonable and something still totally within their reach....software delays or otherwise. It's also interesting to note that a majority of the land recovered by removing the Central Artery's above-ground eyesore is going to be returned to the city in the form of parks/trees/grass as opposed to being auctioned out as lots for more building.

Somehow, I don't believe it.

[TrebleJunkie]

This seems to me like just one more in a very, very, VERY long series of excuses and fingerpointing as to why the Big Dig is taking so damn long and is so many times over the original budget.

Poor planning, kickbacks, under-the-table deals by a lot of mobbed-up politicians, engineering firms, state employees, laborers. THAT'S what's been wrong with the Big Dig -- or for that matter, Massachusetts -- since day one.

Re:Somehow, I don't believe it.

[connorbd]

I don't know about mobbed-up, but there are some very unpleasant operators on the Boston City Council that wouldn't need to be Connected (TM) to be dirty. South Boston (especially whatsisname, Jimmy Kelly, I think) seems in general to behave as though the entire city revolves around it; most of the commercial part of the waterfront is there, the Boston World Trade Center and the new convention center are there, the Red Sox considered relocating there, and on top of it all the place's most notorious inhabitants are dirt-poor Irish rednecks whose section of the city has the rep for being down there with the bad parts of Dorchester for slumminess (and the Boston Irish can be as clannish as any other ethnic group; my own family is part Irish from Brighton, and I do see it in certain older members). That is where all the kickbacks are going.

If there's Mob influence going on in the Big Dig, it's on the QT -- the New England organized crime scene has been a shambles for years (two words: "Where's Whitey?"). No, IMHO it's just a whole lot of people on the take on their own behalf. Linkage funds indeed... I'd be willing to bet the Dig budget would be half as much as it is if it wasn't for "linkage". /Brian

Automatic Air Quality Monitoring

[jakedata]

Seems to me that with all those cars underground we should be monitoring the quality of the air coming OUT of the tunnel, rather than that going in. On bad air quality days we could shut off the ventilators and give us pedestrians a break. Any of you project programmers want to put in THAT easter egg?

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[wls]

"This is the network of cameras, traffic-flow sensors, carbon monoxide gauges, and electronic signage, all linked to an Operations Control Center in South Boston"

Perhaps I imagine long strands of fiber optics or ethernet cables with the ability to plug arbitrary devices at the ends. Allow for high enough bandwidth, and even if you have to sit on driving technology to catch up, you still know how much data you can pump through a fiber.

It'd be really, really, really sad if no one planned the project out, or even worse, planned it out in such a way that it depended on specific transport media. Test labs and simulations ought to go a long way for telling if something is scalable.

We don't have a choice

[alexhmit01]

Some of us citizens don't get to vote in this state. We don't have elections in Mass, we have Democratic primaries...

Alex

Honeywell

[Anonymous Coward]

Turns out honeywell's software isn't quite ready.

Honeywell's software is never ready on time! We're finally ripping out something that Honeywell hasn't gotten around to finishing EIGHT YEARS! It isn't an isolated incident, either!!!

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[sglane81]

...they needed something done a different way than originally planned...

...software would be easily able to change and keep up with everything else...

...they[engineers] put the burden on them[software developers]...

Surely you must be joking. This never happens in software development.

I'd move back.

[SHEENmaster]

We may have better(if crappy) roads, but Boston has faster internet access and fewer racist jackasses than here in East TN.

I was born in PA and I've lived here in TN for 14 years of my 16 years. Any scholarships to CMU would be apreciated; I won't be an English major.

Re:I'd move back.

[Anonymous Coward]

Boston has faster internet access and fewer racist jackasses

I doubt it. Boston is the most racist city in the US. More racist than anywhere in the South.

Then again you're 16, and therefore don't know shit.

terrorism and the Big Dig

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine what would happen to Boston if another Ryder truck went off in the tunnel. I wonder what steps were taken to cover this since i blow in the tunnel might theoretically destabilize all the buildings above it plus destroy all the communications lines plus the subway lines.

Easy

[SuperKendall]

How long have you been doing corperate software?

You make the polling configurable as suggested by the requirements - of course the only option you can choose when configuring is... 3 seconds!

Then when they ask to add to the range, you note that the entire system was built around requirement (1), and that you'll need one year to add any other options.

Unless of course for brevity you've left out that the operator had to be able to change the polling to a certain range of values. Then you're toast.

Seriously though, good luck to all of you - I've been in projects with requirements like that before.

SAIC management?

[Anonymous Coward]

perhaps some SAIC or Northrup Grumann management is behind the software, and causing horrible problems from its inept approach to project management and resource control. Maybe none of the developers can ever get vital training or the hardware and software needed, while management gets 3000 dollar desktops in order to surf eTrade and ESPN.com faster.

Boston's Big Dig Delayed because of Slashdot?

[raehl]

Further invesitgation into software delays in Boston's Big Dig project traced the source of the problem to an internet technical news site, Slashdot.org.

A survey of the projects network logs showed that queries to the Slashdot website occured at an average interval of 37 seconds, or 3 minutes and 5 seconds per user assigned to the project.

Project spokesmen indicated that a planned installation of software to curb employee access to the website has been delayed due to lack of available programmers to do the installation.

Big Dig won't solve anything

[sbillard]

I commute I93 everyday. I doubt bigger roads with a better layout will solve anything. There are brief sections of highway with merging on-ramps. If the on-ramps are clear, some inconsiderate motorists in the right lane will dive into the on-ramp, pass you on the right, and force their way back into traffic. This generates a guaranteed bottleneck at every single on-ramp when traffic would otherwise flow. Basically, if its paved, its fair game - go for it. The painted lines mean nothing. Rules of the road mean nothing. Forget about common courtesy or common sense. NYC traffic is bad downtown, but we've got the most dangerous interstate traffic anywhere. Ohh the things I've seen would make great television.

Uhh no officer, its not road rage. Its my survival instincts.

I guess its a by-product of the years and years of detours and changing roadways. There is something inherently wrong with a system that has the slowpokes on the left and the speed demons on the right, unless, or course, you live in UK.

Don't forget the Tipper

[rogerz]

As with all appropriations bills, this one originated in the House. I've heard this highway bill called Tip O'Neil's farewell gift to the Commonwealth (hah, there's an oxymoron, for you) of Massachusetts.

However, obviously Ted slammed it home.

Back on topic...

[pjt48108]

Does anyone know any of the specifics of the integrated system they are using to manage operations after opening? Are they slaves to closed-source software or what?

By the way, I always thought the Big Dig was a neat idea. Too bad they aren't doing it here in Michigan. We'd save on road salt costs. :-)

Re:IWNRTFA

[iabervon]

Actually, business travellers to Boston will not see any benefit from the Big Dig (except for not having an ugly highway in the way). Getting between the airport, hotels, and convention centers doesn't use the highway at all; you'd either take the subway or a taxi on other roads. While Boston traffic is kind of a mess, the traffic that the Big Dig is supposed to relieve is primarily people driving past downtown Boston getting squeezed onto a narrow highway winding among the office buildings, going between I-90 to the west, I-93 to the north and south, and the airport to the east.

Just a smokescreen

[/dev/trash]

The big problem was Ann Eppard and Bud Shuster's underhanded way of handing out contacts for teh job.

Re: Muni in SF

[Mark of THE CITY]

In 1997, and maybe before, Muni was no longer publishing timetables, being only willing to list service intervals on the back of its map.

They need upkeep.

[N8F8]

OK, if state roads need upkeep then pay for it with State taxes. If a roads primary purpose is to facilitate inter-state transportation then subsadize it with Federal tax.

The most cost effieient solution to the traffic problem, as seen in most cities, is an interstate BYPASS. BTW, part of this project included building the bypass. So, federal dollars paying to beautify Boston and make it more tourist friendly is nothing more than pork. Even PBS came to that conclusion.

Re:They need upkeep.

[daoine]

as seen in most cities, is an interstate BYPASS. BTW, part of this project included building the bypass.

Not quite. Not at all, in fact. Boston's bypass is I95 (also known as Route 128) which has no mention in the Big Dig Project Probably due to the fact that construction on the bypass was mostly finished in the early 60's. Now, the Mass Pike gets money from the CA/T Project, but it's not a bypass - it's a spur straight into the city.

Furthermore, while I see the gripe with spending money to put it underground - fact is, the road needed more lanes. If you've ever driven on it, you realize that when it goes past the North End and Fanueil Hall, there *is* no more room for expansion without massive demolition (which would trash some taller buldings and historical landmarks, and that just wouldn't be happening)

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[Jay L]

I don't understand how the software developers are holding up laying of the infrastructure. One would have thought that the software would be fairly independent of the media on which it operates.

What I gathered from the article was that both software developers AND cable-pullers were running late, not that the pullers were late because of the developers.

The pullers were probably delayed by the flooding in the temporary Fort Point Channel tunnels, as was everyone else.

Re:IWNRTFA

[Jay L]

Getting between the airport, hotels, and convention centers doesn't use the highway at all

I dunno, it might become quicker to get from Copley to the airport using the Pike instead of surface streets.. going westbound I don't remember seeing an exit 22, now that I think of it.

You curious little man...

[gatkinso]

....check the time stamp of the original post.

Corporate Geneology

[Detritus]

The company that is doing the software work on Big Dig is Honeywell Technology Solutions Inc. (HTSI), formerly Allied-Signal Technical Services Corp. (ATSC), formerly Bendix Field Engineering Corp. (BFEC). It has nothing to do with Honeywell in the 1980s. It started out as the field engineering division of Bendix Radio in the 1950s. Bendix was acquired by Allied in 1983. Allied merged with Signal in 1985. Allied-Signal merged with Honeywell in 1999. Even though the name and ownership has changed several times, it is still the same company that started out as a subsidiary of Bendix.

You want behind schedule?

[connorbd]

I mention elsewhere about the whole fiasco surrounding the construction of the Inner Belt in Boston and how it made the current Big Dig necessary... well, for those of you keeping score at home, I might point out that the project currently under way is probably the second or third incarnation of the plan -- even before I-95 was supposed to be finished through Boston they were already planning a third harbor tunnel (i.e. the Ted Williams Tunnel), a bit north of where it is now, starting on Fan Pier where there is now the Moakley Federal Courthouse. In other words, they were already planning a version of the Big Dig (rerouting 95 under Boston Harbor to Revere) long before the original I-95 would ever have been completed!

This probably would all have been finished some time in the late 70s or early 80s had everything originally planned been finished on schedule (which, barring those pesky residents in the way, would probably have been around 1968).

You think the Big Dig as it is is bad...

Just some more information...

floods and then some

[netik]

I worked for a small consulting company (when I lived in Boston) about 5 years ago that had to go in and assist the main architects for the big dig.

Their main office was completely flooded out (it was in a basement), and all of the critical servers, mostly individual sparc workstations running AutoCad, lived under the desks of the architects.

I poured gallons of water out of servers, and there was no centralized backup system anywhere on or off the premisis. There were a few tapes, but mostly it was lots and lots of plotter output, everywhere. Their admins were clueless, and they had no idea what they were doing (or how to fsck and recover the workstations, even!)

After seeing this, and living in Boston for many years, I had a good explaination of why the architects and the designers had so many problems: Little communicaiton, poor admin work, insane (and impossible) deadlines and even worse management.

I don't think the project will ever be completed. We all know the computer simulations prove that the project will be at or above capacity when it opens, and the process will need to begin anew.

The only real good that's come of it is that many new engineering techniques have been researched and tried out. It's just too bad they used one of my favorite cities as a testbed.

nothing good comes from htsi (honeywell aerospace)

[Anonymous Coward]

the aerospace side of honeywell has always been a big fucking joke. they want to waste time teaching six sigma insted of doing there job.

Please tell me why the hell did they think a software section in columbia maryland could do any
good in boston?

htsi does not want to pay software developers that have a clue.

PBS had a great program on this

[mynametaken]

I saw a great show on PBS about the history of this and the engineering complexity surrounding the project(s). It is massive. Excellent show if you can find it on your local listings. Here's the website:

http://www.pbs.org/greatprojects/tour/bigdig_1.htm l

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[LadyLucky]

Do you think that if we didn't call it software anymore, something a little more permanent, say... stickyware, people wouldn't change the requirements after the delivery date?

Cheers.

Oh, to have more "obese" cities!

[ArthurDent]

Funny comment, but the analogy don't work.

People get fat from eating too much. Cities get more prosperous from having more people be able to get there. Businesses can hire better people becuase the traffic doesn't stress them out. People are more apt to move in and help out the businesses in the city.

Now the question of whether the capacity of the new system will outweigh the demand is another matter, but the more people that are able to easily make it into the city the better.

Ben

Re:Oh, to have more "obese" cities!

[YrWrstNtmr]

No, they both need different solutions.
If you're fat, buying a bigger belt won't reduce your fatness.
Too much traffic congestion? "More roads" are not necessarily the answer!

Of course people need to get into the city. Find a way for them to do that which actually solves the problems (takes too long, too stressed out, nowhere to park, etc) instead of merely putting a bandaid on it.

A new road project is often overcapacity as soon as it is opened. That doesn't sound like a viable solution to me.

If you took a particular city, paved over everything. Roads and parking lots. Put in a 2 level tunnel/subway system. A 3 level overhead road system...Before long, it would still be congested!

Why don't we start looking for real, workable alternatives?

On time?

[LocutusMIT]

Ummm... I hate to break it to you, but they'd need a time machine to get the Big Dig done on time... :)

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[Anonymous Coward]

How about we just call it "Harderthananythingelseyouhavetodoware"?

Re:Software holdups...? That's kinda silly.

[wls]

The /. image that had been painted in my mind (not that from the article itself) was that you had these guys waiting to pull cable, but until the software side of things worked, they weren't going to run them. "Why string this copper if next week they decide they need fiber."

You're correct, of course, the article does say both are late. And that statement may be true, I have no reason to doubt it. But I viewed these as independent events.

When I had my house built, I had 25 pair CAT 5 strung to each room of the house before I even knew what kind of jack I was going to use the wire for. The way /.ers presented it, it would be like the foreman holding up production until I got my applications working.

I'm now pondering if by the time they get the infrastructure in place, will a better technology have come out.

Dallas has that!

[Anonymous Coward]

For 10 years (or so) Dallas had the rebuilding of North Central freeway.
Now that is finished, they are rebuilding the intersection North Central and I-635.
The fun thing was that North Central was open while they rebuilt it; wonderful training for driving on mountain roads or at LeMans.

I think the diference between Dallas and Boston is that after Dallas pi**es away our chunk of public money, we get a road that is better than the old one. From the posts, it doesn't look like the trafic in Boston will be better when they finish pi**ing away their money.

Automated toll collection

[geoswan]

Here in Southern Ontario we have a toll expressway with no toll-takers, and no toll-booths. Vehicles can exit or enter the expressway at speed. Transponders are required for trucks, but are optional for passenger vehicles. For vehicles without transponders the system takes a picture of the liscence plate. People don't like paying, of course, but it is very convenient.

Locals don't like that a new, very conservative, "business friendly" provincial administration came in, and sold the newly completed project to a private consortium, for a song. But that is another story. Here is a history.

Rome wasn't built in a day...

[CoachS]

If it was, Boston would've hired their contractors.

-Coach-

Last Post!

[alpg]

I got tired of listening to the recording on the phone at the movie
theater. So I bought the album. I got kicked out of a theater the
other day for bringing my own food in. I argued that the concession
stand prices were outrageous. Besides, I hadn't had a barbecue in a
long time. I went to the theater and the sign said adults $5 children
$2.50. I told them I wanted 2 boys and a girl. I once took a cab to
a drive-in movie. The movie cost me $95.
-- Steven Wright

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