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There's a shortage of talent in nursing, so we need to figure out how to get more skilled men into the field.

Right? We need to have nursing programs that EXCLUDE women? 'No Women need apply'???

Is that right?

You WANT to exclude women from nursing programs, so we have 'balance'?

http://www.aamn.org/

There are actually lots of initiatives to get more men into nursing including scholarships for nursing programs available only to men.

The American Association of Men in Nursing would like a word with you about the lack of men in nursing careers.

"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are PLENTY of people who care about the lack of men in nursing careers, and who are actively trying to increase the number of men in that field.

You just don't hear about it, because:
1) You do your best to remain ignorant because it doesn't suit your biased worldview;
2) You don't hang out in places where the nursing industry is discussed. I guarantee that on the nursing equivalent of Slashdot, there's discussions about how to get more men interested in nursing.

This canard gets trotted out every fucking time this topic comes up, and it's roundly debunked every time, and the MRA's keep on coming back shouting about how nobody talks about the lack of men in nursing. How you get "Interesting" mods is beyond me.

Why isn't there a similar push to get men into kindergarten education or nursing?

But there are similiar pushes.

Acknowledging it just doesn't fit your pre-ordained conclusions.

Why isn't there a similar push to get men into kindergarten education or nursing?

Well, there are actually. There are advocacy groups like the American Assembly for Men in Nursing and there are loads of groups who think it would be good to encourage more men in teaching (e.g., look here).

Now, these groups don't tend to get as much media coverage. You're correct. And that you may legitimately wonder about. I don't think it's any mystery why you don't hear about such groups on Slashdot -- a piece on that stuff wouldn't get much response, but put up an article about women and tech, and you're bound to get hundreds of screaming comments (=pageviews = ad revenue).

But there ARE people out there who are concerned about getting men in other professions -- particularly because we have a shortage of good nurses and good teachers (though for teaching the biggest shortage areas are places like high school math and science, a place where a lot of men happen to have qualifications).

As to why we don't see a specific push for male kindergarten teachers, I think it has to do with a much more disconcerting gender bias these days, which is the suspicion of any contact between men and small children likely means "pedophile." Seriously, there was a daycare near where I lived a few years back that hired a man to work with the preschool kids, and I heard parents talking and wondering things like, "Why would a MAN want to spend so much time with such young kids??" Or even "I'm okay with him being around to help out, but he shouldn't be doing things like changing kids or taking them to the toilet alone!"

From my perspective, the current pedophile hysteria is a much more disturbing gender issue than a lot of stuff we talk about... and it's largely targeted at males. (Note that child abduction and abuse rates are much lower than in the past; we just tend to hear about them a lot more often nowadays. Also, note that stats show the vast majority of sexual abuse has always been targeted at underage teens. Those cases make up most "sex offenders." The number of true PEDOphiles who are going to abuse preschool kids is orders of magnitude smaller, yet that seems to be what most people worry about. What they should be concerned about is inappropriate contact with their teenage son or daughter.)

Anyhow, all of this concern about young kids and men reinforces traditional stereotypical gender roles within the family, who is the "caregiver" in the family, etc.., which ultimately influences stuff like the fact that most men don't want to do nursing. (Where would a man have the kind of nursing "caregiver" role modeled for him by another man, unless his dad was unusual in taking a more active role in the family or something?) So personally I'm not so much concerned about trying to shoehorn more men into nursing and kindergarten, but I am somewhat concerned about the societal implications of why there are so few.

And personally I'm really glad that my son had the privilege to have a male kindergarten teacher, who by all accounts seemed to be an excellent teacher and role model.

(I'm not going to comment on the whole women in tech thing, just noting that there are issues are men and careers too.)

I just want to know when they'll be producing Nurse Boy

You might be interested in contacting the American Association of Men in Nursing, to ask if you can assist with that endeavor.

and Teacher Man

You should probably contact the MenTeach organization, as well.

Now, I'll sit here patiently and wait for you to rabidly denounce these sexist gender warriors trying to oust women from their well-paid jobs and force men into roles that they've clearly expressed a preference against! Can't wait to see your outrage when you find out about these organizations!

I just want to know when they'll be producing Nurse Boy, and Teacher Man. I can't get worked up about the topic of the lack of women in STEM if we're not going to be equally worked up about the lack of men in traditionally female careers.

OTHER people are worked up about it and a trying to do things about it. You just won't hear about it on in the neckbeard-centric tech-career-obsessed Slashdot.

https://www.discovernursing.co...

http://www.aamn.org/

Get back to me when there is outrage that men are only 10% of the population in teaching and nursing careers. Why aren't we channeling funding to make teaching and nursing careers appealing to male students?

Uh, there are organizations dedicated to fixing these problems -- like here or here or here.

You can argue that we don't provide enough attention to these issues, but there are plenty of people who care deeply about gender divides in these professions and are thinking hard about how to encourage more men to join.

Oh, because male students get to choose careers while minorities and female students are weak and unable to pursue the repressed interests that statistics say they must secretly harbor.

Or perhaps there are social stereotypes and biases that affect career divides. You may not be aware of this, but men encounter serious bias problems when they try to enter primary or preschool education (due to overblown pedophile scares), and while male nurses are becoming more common, they are almost universally derided in popular culture. (Remember Meet the Parents, anyone? That movie, and its sequels, were pretty much continuous riffing on the apparently ridiculous idea that a man should be satisfied in a nursing career.)

Nobody's asserting that there's a "glut of men" in nursing. Archangel Michael suggested that "why does nobody seem to care about the lack of men in nursing?" To which serviscope_minor replied, "Whenever somebody says this, people show how that's false, and that people DO care about the lack of men in nursing, and you can't have missed this, as you've been around Slashdot for a while. Google, chump."

And he's right - people DO care about the lack of men in nursing. You just don't hear about it here in your insular little slashdot bubble.

There's even an organization dedicated to, and I quote from their own statement of their positions:

[...]
2. AAMN exists and is organized to promote the recruitment and retention of men in nursing. We are actively working to position AAMN as the voice for men in nursing, able to speak the needs of and contributions by men as a targeted demographic.

3. AAMN has been organized for more than three decades. Today we are a vitalized professional nursing organization with a rapidly growing membership base. We are vibrant and prospering.

[...]

7. AAMN will further expand on its expertise on men in nursing and promote gender diversity and inclusion. This will lead to improved gender balance in nursing schools and the workforce, gender retention, and gender opportunity.

Yep, there's nobody who cares about the lack of men in nursing at all. You sure nailed it.

Well, except for this, headlined "Male Nurses Break Through Barriers to Diversify Profession," with a sub-heading of: "Advocates call on men to join the nursing profession to create a more diverse nursing workforce and help curb a projected shortage of nursing that threatens to undermine care."

And this, with an abstract that reads: "This literature review examines the ability of the nursing profession to recruit and retain men in nursing schools and in the nursing workforce. The authors consider such educational barriers as role stress, discrimination, and stereotyping, and explore questions of male touch and the capacity of men to care. In identifying challenges faced by men entering or working in a profession in which women predominate, the authors hope to promote actions on the part of nurse leaders, educators, and researchers that may address issues of sex bias and promote greater sexual diversity within nursing."

Yep, nobody at all cares about the lack of men in nursing. Except the nationwide organization dedicated to it with upwards of 2000 members. And the various articles, both scholarly and popular, which are written about the problem.

Anybody who claims that "there's never any outcry" over this is ignorant, and guilty of not having performed even the most cursory research. Anybody who *remains* ignorant does so willfully, and loses any possible grant of rationality or logic to their arguments.

Nobody's asserting that there's a "glut of men" in nursing. Archangel Michael suggested that "why does nobody seem to care about the lack of men in nursing?" To which serviscope_minor replied, "Whenever somebody says this, people show how that's false, and that people DO care about the lack of men in nursing, and you can't have missed this, as you've been around Slashdot for a while. Google, chump."

And he's right - people DO care about the lack of men in nursing. You just don't hear about it here in your insular little slashdot bubble.

There's even an organization dedicated to, and I quote from their own statement of their positions:

[...]
2. AAMN exists and is organized to promote the recruitment and retention of men in nursing. We are actively working to position AAMN as the voice for men in nursing, able to speak the needs of and contributions by men as a targeted demographic.

3. AAMN has been organized for more than three decades. Today we are a vitalized professional nursing organization with a rapidly growing membership base. We are vibrant and prospering.

[...]

7. AAMN will further expand on its expertise on men in nursing and promote gender diversity and inclusion. This will lead to improved gender balance in nursing schools and the workforce, gender retention, and gender opportunity.

Yep, there's nobody who cares about the lack of men in nursing at all. You sure nailed it.

Well, except for this, headlined "Male Nurses Break Through Barriers to Diversify Profession," with a sub-heading of: "Advocates call on men to join the nursing profession to create a more diverse nursing workforce and help curb a projected shortage of nursing that threatens to undermine care."

And this, with an abstract that reads: "This literature review examines the ability of the nursing profession to recruit and retain men in nursing schools and in the nursing workforce. The authors consider such educational barriers as role stress, discrimination, and stereotyping, and explore questions of male touch and the capacity of men to care. In identifying challenges faced by men entering or working in a profession in which women predominate, the authors hope to promote actions on the part of nurse leaders, educators, and researchers that may address issues of sex bias and promote greater sexual diversity within nursing."

Yep, nobody at all cares about the lack of men in nursing. Except the nationwide organization dedicated to it with upwards of 2000 members. And the various articles, both scholarly and popular, which are written about the problem.

Anybody who claims that "there's never any outcry" over this is ignorant, and guilty of not having performed even the most cursory research. Anybody who *remains* ignorant does so willfully, and loses any possible grant of rationality or logic to their arguments.

It's fairly common to have programs specifically for underrepresented groups, especially if there is a goal of changing traditional perceptions that led to that underrepresentation. With gender it works the other way as well, with male-targeted programs in traditionally female occupations, such as those run by the American Assembly for Men in Nursing.

In principle none of these occupations have to do with gender, but due to the significant imbalance and cultural attitudes around it, I think being a man in nursing, or a woman in programming, can be a bit weird, different from just "any other job".

And yet only ONE of those industries is up in arms about the gender imbalance, even when there's a clear demand in both?

Yes, it's not like there's a 30-year-old organization dedicated to things like:

• Encourage men of all ages to become nurses and join together with all nurses in strengthening and humanizing health care.
• Support men who are nurses to grow professionally and demonstrate to each other and to society the increasing contributions being made by men within the nursing profession.
• Advocate for continued research, education and dissemination of information about men's health issues, men in nursing, and nursing knowledge at the local and national levels.
• Support members' full participation in the nursing profession and it's organizations and use this Assembly for the limited objectives stated above

What's funny is, you're so myopic you don't realize that advocating for more diversity in these fields is so NON-controversial that people don't remark on it. Huge amounts of money and time are being poured into getting more men interested in nursing, yet whenever anybody suggests that a male-dominated field should intentionally try to be more diverse, there's this ridiculous shitstorm on "news for nerd" sites like this.

Oh, and here's the kicker:

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics...

Show me a study that supports the assertion that women in IT make more money than their male counterparts, I dare you.

How come there aren't any people complaining that there are VASTLY more women in nursing than men.

There are. For example, have a look at organizations devoted to recruiting more men, like the American Assembly for Men in Nursing or the "Are you man enough to be a nurse?" campaign. Also see various studies and concerns about the issue on the Minority Nurse page. It's really a complicated issue, and organizations like this have really been trying to figure out recruitment efforts.

Maybe there should be more "people complaining" about this issue, but your assertion that "there aren't any" is just untrue. The fact is that we have a shortage of qualified nurses that is only projected to get worse, and many of these organizations, many hospitals, etc. would be extremely happy if they could get more male nurses, or get more men who are currently unemployed or in crappy jobs in this economy to go to nursing school. But it doesn't help the stereotype when just about every portrayal of a male nurse on television or film is usually made to be the butt of jokes and ridicule.

http://www.menteach.org/resour...

http://aamn.org/

http://www.oregoncenterfornurs...

Nursing schools started doing some outreach to men in the early 2000's. It's not as much as I'd like to see though and they really don't do a good job of advertising that they do so. I am seeing more male nurses, but it's still rare. I'm in "social services" myself, working with persons with disabilities, which is majority female...but more men there than in nursing or other types of "social services". But I'm GLBT and thusly not the "Typical male"

Strangely EMT's tend to be fairly diverse representative of society as a whole, at least here they are.

Where is the same level of enthusiasm about training blue collar men for an "exciting career as a nurse, nurse practitioner, etc.?" Those are high paying, skilled, wildly disproportionately female-dominated positions. They could easily accommodate an influx of men.

Uh, there ARE significant initiatives to try to get men into nursing. The American Assembly for Men in Nursing is an organization specifically dedicated to the cause. They even have a YouTube channel dedicated to stories from male nurses trying to convince men to join up. They have a dedicated initative to increase the number of male nurses by 20% by 2020 (the "20 X 20 Choose Nursing" campaign). And then there are other miscellaneous advertising campaigns, like the "Are you man enough to be a nurse?" posters.

Why no interest? Because if we suddenly gave men the opportunity and incentive (ex aggressive recruiting, preferential college admission, etc. ) to pursue those fields, a lot of women might be pushed out and that'd be "sexist."

Uh, no. The main difficulty in recruiting male nurses has to do with stereotypes of the type of caregiving differences between doctors and nurses. (If you want even more info, here's a whole Powerpoint presentation from the AAMN about the various issues involved in recruiting men.)

LOTS of organizations are actively trying to get more men into the nursing profession. Because of social stereotypes, though, most men aren't interested in trying. This has nothing to do with "sexism" or trying to keep men out of the profession.

Where is the same level of enthusiasm about training blue collar men for an "exciting career as a nurse, nurse practitioner, etc.?" Those are high paying, skilled, wildly disproportionately female-dominated positions. They could easily accommodate an influx of men.

Uh, there ARE significant initiatives to try to get men into nursing. The American Assembly for Men in Nursing is an organization specifically dedicated to the cause. They even have a YouTube channel dedicated to stories from male nurses trying to convince men to join up. They have a dedicated initative to increase the number of male nurses by 20% by 2020 (the "20 X 20 Choose Nursing" campaign). And then there are other miscellaneous advertising campaigns, like the "Are you man enough to be a nurse?" posters.

Why no interest? Because if we suddenly gave men the opportunity and incentive (ex aggressive recruiting, preferential college admission, etc. ) to pursue those fields, a lot of women might be pushed out and that'd be "sexist."

Uh, no. The main difficulty in recruiting male nurses has to do with stereotypes of the type of caregiving differences between doctors and nurses. (If you want even more info, here's a whole Powerpoint presentation from the AAMN about the various issues involved in recruiting men.)

LOTS of organizations are actively trying to get more men into the nursing profession. Because of social stereotypes, though, most men aren't interested in trying. This has nothing to do with "sexism" or trying to keep men out of the profession.

When I start seeing movements to increase the dearth of men in the fulfilling career of nursing, I might start having some actual respect for efforts such as these.

It's been happening for a while, you just aren't paying attention. For example: http://aamn.org/aamn.shtml

Some people get stuck in a single solution mentality. There may well be less inherent motivation to join programming in women. But every time the point is even close to being raised, Slashdot seems to have a collective hissy fit and shuts down and refuses to talk about it. Which itself is a sign that there's probably a problem, because we can't even talk rationally about whether there's a problem.

And frankly, if you don't see discrimination against women in IT, you are really not paying attention. I say this as a man in software development. When we ask if there's a systemic bias, it doesn't mean "are you, briancox2, personally a sexist radical who advocates giving women 1/4 pay and rescinding the vote from them". I think a lot of people take it as a personal insult.

Absolutely be welcoming and warm in our acceptance of anyone. Totally agreed. And when we see inequality, think critically about the possible causes. Are women not interested? Are women too stupid (most agree that no, that's not it, but strictly it's a possibility)? Are women pushed out of the field intentionally? Are women pushed out of the field unintentionally by social factors? Are women pushed out of the field unintentionally by physical factors (as a ridiculous example, if upper body strength were correlated to typing speed)? Is it because women have better alternative options that men don't have? Is it because men have safety nets that women don't have, and thus men can choose a higher-stress occupation? Is it a combination of factors?

Is it possible that some of these factors are actually pushing women into the field, but other factors are stronger? For instance, hypothetically it's possible that women are actually much better suited than men at programming but they won't do it because they have a fulfilling career in nursing that men can't break into. I don't think anybody actually believes that one; I chose it specifically so that we wouldn't get off-point by debating specifics. I don't really know the answer and nobody on Slashdot is really talking about it. They've landed mostly on "it's 100% from natural preferences" with a few on the "umm, obvious pervasive sexism???" and just a couple "actually everyone is discriminating against white straight middle class men".

And yet a simple google search shows scholarly and serious articles discussing the issue of men's under-representation in nursing, including a very official-sounding organization known as the AAMN whose first goal is "Encourage men of all ages to become nurses and join together with all nurses in strengthening and humanizing health care."

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Men+in+nursing

http://aamn.org/aamn.shtml

I guess we should just conclude that these people are misguided, and that men are BIOLOGICALLY unsuited for nursing careers, rather than culturally and socially influenced. I guess we should also just conclude that the over-representation of young black men in jail also has a basis in their biology, rather than in the very real social and cultural issues affecting the black community? Hell, let's just declare every problem biological in nature, and wash our hands of it. Poverty? You're biologically unsuited to making money! Can't find a job? You must be biologically unsuited for it!

Nobody cares how many men are becoming ... nurses.