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One Of LLVM's Top Contributors Quits Development Over Code of Conduct, Outreach Program (phoronix.com)
Rafael Avila de Espindola is the fifth most active contributor to LLVM with more than 4,300 commits since 2006, but now he has decided to part ways with the project. From a report: Rafael posted a rather lengthy mailing list message to fellow LLVM developers today entitled I am leaving llvm. He says the reason for abandoning LLVM development after 12 years is due to changes in the community. In particular, the "social injustice" brought on the organization's new LLVM Code of Conduct and its decision to participate in this year's Outreachy program to encourage women and other minority groups to get involved with free software development. "I am definitely sad to lose Rafael from the LLVM project, but it is critical to the long term health of the project that we preserve an inclusive community. I applaud Rafael for standing by his personal principles, this must have been a hard decision," Chris Lattner, tweeted Thursday.
His loss is of great benefit, in the long run. Anyone who would get mad like this is unfit for software development in the modern world. LLVM needs more hugs and less time and focus spent on boring old dry compiler code.
Less of him, more of women. All in all this is an upgrade for the LLVM community, congratulations.
I read the LLVM Community Code of Conduct and I don't see anything in it that should cause a hissy fit. It basically says to be nice to other people. But then again so did Jesus, and look how that turned out.
Much better to get this from the horses mouth, instead of Phoronix - http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html
I think outreach is a good thing. I don't see how actively encouraging diversity is a bad thing. I do believe that prolonged preferential treatment given to one population over another is not good. There are good reasons for short term preferential treatment in order to build a diversity, but after a while, preferential treatment versus evaluating someone based on their merits, causes problems.
So he's leaving because the "LLVM code of conduct" says incendiary things like "Be friendly and patient." and "Be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others".
Oh, and they're participating in an outreach program to encourage under-represented demographics to participate in open source project.
I guess that was the straw that broke the camel's back.
When I started writing software no one was pushing me into it or giving me special encouragement because I had the right chromosome or skin color. Good for you, Rafael.
Seriously triggered, needs his safe space again where he pretends everyone is on even footing.
Maybe he will learn how countless others have felt with the unstated rules of discrimination in so many projects, companies, etc.... People should be accepted into communities based on skill. That's not how things are. The disconnect between how things "should be" vs. how things "are." People can still be fired for being gay (or even perceived gay, although I think there is a lawsuit there because he was actually straight).
Don't like politics creeping in? GOP has been pushing identity politics since before Bush W with the whole marriage ban and sodomy laws, there is gonna be a push-back and people aren't going to like it. When it affects individuals it's going to come back on the individual level, which means communities.
Nice sarcasm.
It sucks when companies hire incompetent people just to check off checkboxes. In this case, how would anyone even know if the code was from a woman or a minority? It's the code that's important.
So you need women and minorities to be around you so that you could be a decent human being?
The requirements to be able to contributed to a project should be based on merit alone.
My god, social conservatives are such SNOWFLAKES.
From reading the original message it seems he is unhappy with culture, sex or some other thing trumping suitability for the job. I love working in an environment of totally kickass people, no matter where they are from or what sex they are.
But I don't want to find people different than myself who aren't the best and pretend that because they are all different somehow we will beat a team of great highly motivated people. It seems we are increasingly choosing diversity initially, vs talent initially.
It has nothing to do with social (in)justice.
Is is merely and exclusively bullies who were too weak to use their muscles or their egos to attack an terrorize others, but
who realized that by playing the victim, e.g. by being "offended" (Aka silly random accusations shaking your confidence house of cards. What are you? 13??) or "triggered" (Then get a therapy! How is your mental illness our problem?), one could leverage the power of the entire clueless mob.
And a reason could *always* be found. Like Cardinal Richelieu of Inquisitions infame, who said he only needed seven lines written by the hand of the finest man, to hang him. (They would have shameraped him [I just made that word up, lol] for saying "man", " ableism" [hands, neck? lol])
Can't tell if serious or trolling.
As usual, SJW-ism has an effect of demonetization and loss of trust from the normal majority consumers, leading to loss.
- Hasbro for example managed to bankrupt the GI Joe brand by employing SJW writers into their comic, ruining the brand value.
- Marvel keeps losing money over the new female "muh womyn power" Captain Marvel, who keeps being rehashed and forced in apparent desperation yet keeps failing and not making returns.
- Disney's Star Wars has now lost trust among prop sellers, a first in the brand's history. Shelves are filled with unsold TLJ "womyn powa" toys which are going to be written off as a major financial loss for both the sellers and Disney. Now sellers have no alternative but to scrutinize all future Disney's Bolshevik marketing projections and force increased costs on Disney as a risk tax. Disney even lost a potential market of 1.3 billion people in China which cites "Baizuo" and "Low IQ (SJW) writing" as critiques.
- Video Game developers appealing to a vocal minority of SJW's who don't even pay for games but rather gather around a single "representative" professional critic/influencer via bubbled social contacts to engage in mob criticism/coercion, who are merely there to support that one career critic against products they don't even care about; resulting in a loss of the core majority of consumers and a net loss in revenue due to appeal to vocal minority over majority.
It's like the religious preachers who exist to preach against products they don't use with fellow church member mobs, yet who are mistaken in ignorance by the object of criticism as consumers.
- FreeBSD suddenly forcibly coercing/demanding from users to become political "ambassadors" by a Code of Conduct copy pasted from some feminist wiki, completely unrelated to the object of the community or their initial interests in becoming part of it. Result? Skilled staff loss.
- SJW publications such as Salon forced into adwall.
- The GNOME foundation running short on money because they wasted it on "The Outreach Program for Women" and such social (in)justice investments.
Examples keep on appearing exponentially with each day.
Oh, and of course if you can't find a way *you* might *feel* attacked, you can always take a random minority, real or just made up, and be attacked by proxy.
In any case, you would have the entire blind spineless public dumpinion on your side.
Oh man, Nelson Muntz would have *loved* to have *that* kind of power!
He says the reason for abandoning LLVM development after 12 years is due to changes in the community. In particular, the "social injustice" brought on the organization's new LLVM Code of Conduct and its decision to participate in this year's Outreachy program to encourage women and other minority groups to get involved with free software development.
This paraphrase deliberately attempts to mislead the reader into thinking he is anti-woman and anti-minority.
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermai...
The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2). This goes directly against my ethical views and I think I must leave the project to not be associated with this.
He is in fact against discrimination and Outreachy's exclusionary nature.
What the fuck is LLVM?
Why should I care?
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
be friendly and patient,
be welcoming,
be considerate,
be respectful,
be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others, and
when we disagree, try to understand why.
the only part of this that I can possibly think he might object to is the fifth one, which some people might consider suppressing free speech, but this is elaborated in the next paragraph as meaning:
Harassment and other exclusionary behavior aren’t acceptable. This includes, but is not limited to: Violent threats or language directed against another person. Discriminatory jokes and language. Posting sexually explicit or violent material. Posting (or threatening to post) other people’s personally identifying information (“doxing”). Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms. Unwelcome sexual attention. Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
all of which seem reasonable. If he wants to violate what seems to be pretty bare-minimum standards of what should be considered acceptable behavior, I'd say that he should leave the community. And not join a different one.
All from people who have ZERO IDEA of his real motivation and making all sorts of wild claims of how LLVW is forcing core coders to have to accept shitty code from women and minorities.
Gimme a break. Why does everyone need to throw a temper tantrum why they quit anything and post a long rant of how a project has "lost its way".
His objections are more like objecting to discriminating on the basis of race, gender, and sexual preference. That was the last straw for him Do you support that?
I don't.
Some people support this only when it discriminates against the people they think should get an advantage. There's different ways to justify this. Everyone mostly agrees that basing discrimination on hate and prejudice is wrong. Other people think basing discrimination on an aggregate unfairness of baked in identity is OK. I and many others think discrimination is just across the board wrong. Some people don't want to be part of groups that advocate this form if discrimination.
To give you an example, a white, poor kid wouldn't be eligible for the Outreachy program. But a rich black kid would. How is that fair?
I agree he should have just left and quit instead of playing the victim. There's no evidence he himself was victimized or harassed from this new code of conduct.
otherwise all you get is lockerroom talk.
I get it, and I agree with him. If I were the main creator of something, and suddenly instead of being all about code, working out logic facts and figures everything started to be about how people 'feel' then I'd get the hell away from that hot mess too.
We are looking to create, not to socialize. Placing socializing as a top priority on a logic problem over getting work done is insane.
The other thing is, we do not all want to be nice all the time. If I am just a volunteer contributor then I should be able to be racist, mysoginistic, all inclusive, homosexual, heterosexual, pansexual or any shade of human you prefer. What these directives are doing is attempting to tell us all how to think feel and act which has nothing to do with coding logic or creating. They want us to be someone we are not to fit a narrative of reality which we do not even really know is good or bad in the long run, we just know it's popular think at this moment in time.
At any rate, you can all demonize him all you like but the man volunteered for 12 solid years, did an amazing job and has decided to leave causing a gaping hole and potentially the death of the entire project. If they were looking to help the projects then they have failed by alienating the developers.
Can you hear that? It's him crying like a little bitch. I read this yesterday and laughed.
It's your typical tldr white trash political conservative crying like a baby.
Everyone is equal!!!!!!! I say they are!!!!!! There are groups that say they aren't!!!!! Bullshit!!!!! I quit!!!!!!
...Oh, and they're participating in an outreach program to encourage under-represented demographics to participate in open source project. I guess that was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Yes... an outreach program that was planning to hire one (1) intern from an underrepresented population.
One.
What is the obsession of people who *actually* believe there is no difference between men and women?
(I personally met two of them! So they are very real.)
Don't they realize that that implies that anything different about women is inferior? Aka the very sexism they pretend to be against.
And by extension, why should men and women not like different things? People of different nations, ages, cultures, genes, etc, do. Why must there be fixed quotas? Because, again, that implies inferiority of anything but the "straight white male" they say they despise so much (but mostly are themselves!). Making it the sneakiest and hence most vile form of discrimination.
Yeah, you are probably right. They do not give a single shit about social justice. Only about compensating their own inferiority complex.
I suspect he is a SJW 2.0.
The next step in the arms race.
Aka a SJW who gets offended/triggered/"shameraped" by SJW-memes themselves.
And, true to SJW philosophy, that does not require any relation to reality. All you need is that you *feel* (or "feel") discriminated.
So good on him for using their own weapons against them.
But bad on us, as it is just validating that kind of sneaky asshole behavior.
I know the "editors" are really dead spider husks in old cobwebs, but explaining abbreviations in a summary is one of the basic things they should be doing.
Isn't that one of the highest forms of posting?
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a difficult battle. - Plato
If you don't like the code, comment on the PR, point out problems and weak points... but if you have to resort to anything that would violate those community standards in order to it then your points probably aren't that valid and perhaps you are not the great coder you believe yourself to be.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
You don't?
Yeah, that's about what I thought this departure was about. If it's encouraging women while simultaneously *dis*couraging men, then yes, it was perfectly logical for him to leave.
I don't want a space saved for me, who (at the moment) knows next to nothing about coding or programming, instead of giving it to someone empirically better, who may just possess a different set of physical characteristics from me, that they had no choice in possessing from birth: like a man.
It's a disgraceful, pitying move to suggest that women *cannot* compete in a tech environment without a leg up or some kind of "diversity" push.
Code is code. It's the greatest equality in the world and I won't step easily up into a tech position just because I was born with a vagina. Said physical traits wouldn't help me be a better coder, so it'd be irrelevant to the process of coding.
Anyone suggesting I need a leg up where I don't is being sexist. "A poor little woman wanted to enter the tech industry or join a tech project! Awww, poor baby, here's a position I give to you out of pity because it's all TOO HARD FOR YOU TO DO YOURSELF."
Shite, this is tiring to see over and over again over the last several years.
I'd like people of any gender to tell me when I suck ass at something, or I'll never improve. This emphasis on emotions over logic, especially in tech, is making women weaker, not stronger. If you can't handle being told that your code is shit from someone more experienced, then you joined that business/project only for yourself, not for the greater good of that business/project.
I wish I didn't have the power women have today to summon up mobs, violence, infinite "help the poor women now!" studies and to ruin people's careers if they say or do the "wrong thing". Only psychopaths or sociopaths would want the power to crush a little less than half the human population at will.
Just because we have a vagina and we can? That's sickening.
They actually have this in their CoC:
"Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. "
They follow by saying they condone "reversism's". In other words if you are white male or female you can be openly harassed within the community because you are considered privileged. What the hell has happened to these projects?!
When it comes to politics and activist managers, the first to go are always the most capable. LLVM is an extremely useful toolkit. Hope work continues to improve it, but it sounds like there will be a significant slowdown on development.
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html
https://llvm.org/docs/CodeOfConduct.html
The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that
openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2). This goes
directly against my ethical views and I think I must leave the project
to not be associated with this.
[1] http://lists.llvm.org/pipermai...
[2] https://www.outreachy.org/appl...
What if the group was "white straight dudes under 30 only" would giving money to this group still be ok?
It's rather rich to preach tolerance of other tribes and at the same time actively promote and give money to clubs whose only requirement for belonging is tribal purity.
I don't see how it is possible to preach tolerance while actively supporting and funding tribalism while not becoming a hypocrite in the process.
If you want more diversity or whatever there are ways to get there that don't involve nurturing tribalism.
Yeah, never complain about bankster campaigns such as this one!
OBEY!
I'm not surprised that this stuff turns some people off and causes them to say "fine, enough is enough. I was here for the code."
Most free software projects, nobody ever even sees you. If they don't seem to like your contributions, it's probably not because they are big wacist toxic masculine meanie weenies.
Codes of conduct are unnecessary. If you can't handle working with assholes you are the one who will benefit from an adjustment.
If he had just left without saying anything, people would be made uncomfortable, which the CoC does not allow.
From https://www.outreachy.org/appl...
"Outreachy Eligibility Rules
You must meet one of the following criteria:
You live any where in the world and you identify as a woman (cis or trans), trans man, or genderqueer person (including genderfluid or genderfree).
You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander"
So, there you go. If your skin color isn't acceptable, no internship for you.
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
From reading the original message it seems he is unhappy with culture, sex or some other thing trumping suitability for the job. I love working in an environment of totally kickass people, no matter where they are from or what sex they are.
But I don't want to find people different than myself who aren't the best and pretend that because they are all different somehow we will beat a team of great highly motivated people. It seems we are increasingly choosing diversity initially, vs talent initially.
If your hiring strategy is to wait for the best people to show up instead of actively looking for them in every nook and cranny, then you deserve diversity hires.
If you go all Moneyball, and actually LOOK for "totally kickass" people you'll find diversity by accident.
What ever happened to, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"? Diversity is irrelevant when you only know people by their email addresses! Just because I'm using the name of an old white philosopher doesn't mean I'm not a young black instagram model!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Except, of course, that this is predicated on the assumption that they're replacing competent people with less competent ones. Which is the usual strawman propped up to justify rebellion against such dangerously stifling policies as "consider other people's feelings".
And even in a meritocracy, one's merit isn't judged solely on the code they output. Code is generally not worth it if it comes with the price tag that of what these policies are trying to prevent. Someone who cannot tolerate being upheld to a basic level of decency without fear of repercussion is someone who is offsetting their other virtues by turning others away from the project. So to do those who turn a blind eye to ongoing abuses while complaining about their own comfort levels. We are costing ourselves people of merit to spare others much less discomfort.
At some point we need to remember that we're human beings surrounded by other human beings, not just drones who can ignore everything but our code output. We need to interact with people not just on our own terms, but on theirs as well. Refusing to do so when the ask is so trivial only reflects poorly on us. If all that truly mattered was the code, then we would not have these societal issues to begin with.
For a while we've seen attempts like this in the open source world.
Want to muscle your way into an OSS project, despite lacking the talent or skill (or willingness) to contribute anything other than drama, identity politics, and an insatiable urge control others (or remove them if they don't fall in line)? Force a Code of Conduct (which is often explicitly racist and/or sexist, dismissive of merit, and vague enough to be selectively enforced) down its throat! It even works on the largest, most influential projects, and lets you dictate developers' behavior on unrelated corners of the web!
http://archive.is/4vV8z
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...
http://todogroup.org/opencodeo...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kotak...
http://contributor-covenant.or...
http://developers.slashdot.org...
https://www.reddit.com/r/freeb...
No, but if you cannot tolerate simply being upheld to acting kindly to them, then that doesn't speak well of your decency.
As we've learned before, Google sees itself as being on some kind of social mission. They are not content to just give you good products and services, they intentionally USE those to influence you. I think this is an excellent case in point. If your skin color is not one that Outreachy likes, no internship for you. Likewise with your sexual preferences.
What does ANY of this have to do with writing good code? Absolutely nothing. It's all about Google and Friends using their platforms to force their belief systems on the rest of us.
It is very near time to ditch Google, to say nothing of the other technology giants. They're not content to stay in their lane and make good products, now they want to EVANGELIZE. If I want evangelism, I go to church.
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
His actual words from the mail list:
"The last drop was llvm associating itself with an organization that openly discriminates based on sex and ancestry (1,2). This goes directly against my ethical views and I think I must leave the project to not be associated with this."
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermai...
The code of conduct doesn't just land from Mars. It's the result of various people in the team agitating for change. The CoC might well be being promoted to give people who have a political agenda, not a coding agenda, the opportunity to gain more control.
Software rewards a high degree of discipline, a coherent technical approach. It's sometimes necessary to prune code contributions that are rubbish in spite of the fact that this might hurt someone's feelings of self-worth. When this happens its easier to blame another's bias than your own incompetence.
It would be interesting to know the level of code contribution, and its quality, from the promoters of the CoC.
Among other aspects, he's not getting paid for being the fifth highest contributor of submissions for LLVM, and yet for some reason he's being told that his contributions aren't as important as potentially getting more token women contributions.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
If you go all Moneyball, and actually LOOK for "totally kickass" people you'll find diversity by accident.
While I think that notion is a product of wishful thinking, I believe prioritizing diversity hires is an equal dose of delusional thinking.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Plenty of situations where the code is "not even wrong". How do you explain to the person that their reasoning is wrong? The act of explaining will whoosh right over them. The rate at which these situations occur is low, but they happen all the time.
Sometimes I just want to say "I figured this out on my own when I was 8 years old in about 30 seconds", because it's true. Here, let me do your job for you.
I'm not trying to come off rude, just being realistic. In every single one of these cases, the person never learned from their mistake because they never understood the mistake in the first place, even after hours or days of hand-holding, explaining the reasoning. The next time there's a "same crap, different pile", they don't realize it because the situation is not perfectly the same even if abstractly identical.
Can't stand the heat?
Then you get out of the kitchen.
Spoken like a true underling of a globalist, cultural Marxist corporation.
I am a recruiter from Google and I want to hire you!
WE don't generally have these issues. It's not coders that do and non coders that fuck everything up. Coders understand all that truly matters IS THE CODE.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
These are the official requirements for the program he objects to, copy/pasted from their web page:
--
You must meet one of the following criteria:
You live any where in the world and you identify as a woman (cis or trans), trans man, or genderqueer person (including genderfluid or genderfree).
You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander
--
They have decided to explicitly NOT treat people the same. You MUST be transgender or something in order to participate in the program and get the benefits.
Most of the people I work with in open source, I don't know anything about their sexuality and I don't care. Not one bit. I care about the code - does it work, and has it been tested to be be sure that it works. Requiring me t inquire into someone's sexual preferences in order to determine how to process their code submissions would turn me off greatly as well.
Or your ability to code has nothing to do with a slippery slope and apologists like you.
At what point is it relevant or necessary to even mention or deal with the things you have problems with when dealing with a project involving code? You can only be racist or sexist if you actually say or do racist or sexist things. It's really simple. Here let me show you:
Good
"This code is horrible. It's poorly documented, its hacky, and it breaks other functions. These are good places to start in making this not terrible."
You're addressing the code, not the person.
Bad
"This code is horrible. Maybe if your tits were brains you'd know how to at least document this garbage. Were you on the rag when you wrote this....Jesus just go back to making babies and let the men do the work."
You've addressed the person and only acknowledged the code like once or twice.
If the point of writing code was to make a program work, don't you think you should be concentrating on the code? It's totally asinine to bring anything else into it.
Seems to me he was upset about people prying into him:
I cannot take is how the social injustice movement has permeated it. When I joined llvm no one asked or cared about my religion or political view.
I don't want anyone interrogating me about my beliefs and views, so I don't blame him for leaving
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
It's the twisting of the word "discrimination" to be always bad. Discrimination is something everyone does everyday. How is it being used? Just to exclude women and minorities? That's bad.
Read it. He's explicitly against discriminating based on sex and ancestry.
Are you discriminating against a restauraunt that was in the news for an E. coli outbreak? That's not a bad use of discrimination or unreasonable.
He supports discrimination based on merit. You've said absolutely nothing useful here . . . not about Rafael, anyway.
I am friends with one of the people who I believe founded and I know co-organizes Outreachy. I don't agree with her politics in certain regards. For instance I have signed a statement of support for Jacob Appelbaum who was accused of sex ???crimes??? but was never charged and the entire "evidence" was refuted by supposed accusers once people figured out who those accusers were (since it was a third party who brought on the attacks). Jumping to fire someone because of emotional baseless accusations for instance should be resisted. It's dangerous and in the case of free software projects undermines the very real objectives of such projects: developing software to do something.
The point that I'm trying to make here is that bringing in minorities is a worthwhile cause. However it should not come at the expense of others and emotional nonsensical arguments should be discarded. Someone is being accused of rape? Where is the evidence? If no evidence discard. Women and other minorities should be treated fairly and efforts to bring them in should not be funded by anything other than voluntary contributions specific to that effort and should be done outside of the software project.
A better approach to codes of conduct is to simply prohibit non-project communications. You should not be using a project to project women's outreach or some environmental cause. It's not because these aren't worthwhile endeavors- but rather because they are outside the scope of a free software development project.
I am a victim of violence. I've faced fear and persecution my entire life. I don't appreciate hate crime laws and I don't appreciate those wanting to banish those they dislike. It's reverse discrimination and that too is morally reprehensible. Hate crime laws and other policies like this frequently end up making things worse for other minorities-or even create a new persecuted minority- for example hate crime laws have resulted in activists being punished more harshly for merely using not-so-nice words against police (police being added as a protected class). I don't support murdering jews- but I don't think that matters when it comes to whose contributing to a free software project so long as they don't partaken in advocating the murder of jews within the project. Murdering jews is off-topic. And if someone is advocating that they should be told to quit it. The same is true of someone who is advocating womens outreach within a project.
"Identity politics" is the latest buzzword from people who are, ironically, obsessed with identity politics.
In other words if you are white male or female you can be openly harassed.
Is this something that happens to you a lot in the Ubuntu and Python communities? If this is not an issue for you maybe you can think of an reason why we would need such rules.
"resort to anything that would violate those community standards in order to it then your points probably aren't that valid"
Classic. So the validity of a statement is measured against how it aligns with a CoC. Amazing. Linus better hope they don't adopt such a CoC for the kernel. He will no longer be a great coder and all of his points will probably no longer be valid.
And, should a woman who is not victimized or harassed just leave and quit instead of playing the victim when a company has policies that are discriminatory and effect others?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
> Maybe if your tits were brains
Standard programmers AKA obese white men, insult each other this way all the time. Why treat women differently?
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
The highest contributor is Chris Lattner. I'm willing to bet he's the founder/leader of llvm. I also willing bet it's his wife/girlfriend/sister/unspecified_relative Tanya Lattner who is responsible for this bullshit. It was her, after all, who wanted to partner up with that puke-inducing Outreachy organization that specifically discriminates against whites or cisgendered men. I don't see her name on that list of top contributors in TFA, so I suppose this is how she contributes to the project instead?
May this project crash, burn and rise from its ashes as a fork run by a meritocratically-minded group where the only property of your skin that matters is its thickness, your gender is only a problem if you make it one, and the only disability that gets you sympathy is RSI.
This one is taken. By humans.
"Oh wow -- for once in your life, there's something you aren't entitled to! How does it feel?"
Is that what we've been striving for? Here i thought it was to be inclusive and more diverse; to give everyone the same opportunities white straight men have historically enjoyed. Was I wrong?
Because apparently you consider it progress, even a victory, if we just make life shit for straight white men too.
Oops. The mask slips. It was never about equality; it was about revenge.
And no, the link does not give the full story. Again, SJWs are requiring gender/race/other discrimination and submission to their views to force their screwed-up beliefs on everybody and they do so in a project where skill and insight is critical. Whenever skill and insight is critical, you _cannot_ be welcoming to newbies. You can only take the best and they have to prove their skill. Anything else kills the project. This is not some socializing club, this is hardcore engineering. Of course, for a project of this size, it takes a while to die, but it is going to happen now by basically keeping anybody away that primarily cares about technological excellence.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Such a bunch of nonsense.
Wake me up when wages are more or less equal, when there are as many women in tech as men (give or take a generous 15 percent margin of error), when there isn't as big an asymmetry in violence between sexes...
*That* day we won't need a program as Outreachy, which is *explicitly designed to compensate* the perceivable skew we have, and thus has to discriminate in favour of those who traditionally are at disadvantage.
Yeah, giving up power feels sometimes funny, but believe me, at the other end awaits a better world, for us all.
Oh, btw. old white male here.
Let's be clear. That organization practices reverse discrimination in order to bring more women and minorities into the industry.
And that purported "reverse" discrimination consisted of a single internship set aside for somebody who is not a heterosexual white male.
That's it: one internship.
If he's triggered by having even a single internship devoted to trying to address barriers to entry for women and minorities, I'll say that this wasn't the problem; it's just the excuse he's giving.
These are the official requirements for the program he objects to, copy/pasted from their web page: -- You must meet one of the following criteria: You live any where in the world and you identify as a woman (cis or trans), trans man, or genderqueer person (including genderfluid or genderfree).
You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander --
While I get that that may be upsetting that they're trying to act in an affirmative action mindset, I believe that the whole point of this is to get more of these individuals who can do the work as well or better than some who may already work with projects, into the project to do the work. The idea that they're going to stop accepting code from cis hetero men just because they're trying to encourage these people to take part is asinine.
"Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
Outreach? Seems they're knifing leaders, instead...
Why do you always assume these diversity rules are just checkboxes to pick up unqualified people.
Often companies have setup artificial barriers to prevent diversity, despite qualifications.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
That worked out well for James Damore.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Among other aspects, he's not getting paid for being the fifth highest contributor of submissions for LLVM, and yet for some reason he's being told that his contributions aren't as important as potentially getting more token women contributions.
That's an interesting perspective. How did you conclude that his contributions weren't as important as "getting more token women contributions"? The group he objects to being associated with is specifically about encouraging under-represented groups to participate more often in open source. It literally has no effect on his contributions.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Here's some data: by an informal count of gender-recognizable top 1000 kernel contributors to Linux kernel I did several years ago, there were 8 women (I recognize western and slavic names, first names I didn't recognize were skipped). A more thorough count of all "key" packages (as defined by testing migration criteria) in Debian Stretch, where I tried to guess gender based on first name, ldap, ~60 seconds of web search for that person -- shown 0.9% of last uploaders being female, with each female having only 60% packages on the average (although, with low population of data, this last figure might be not significant enough).
your data is interesting. You go on to make a conclusion, however, that is not based in any way on that data. You conclude "Thus, I believe this is approximately the natural gender ratio of skilled software engineers." However, your data would just as reasonably fit a conclusion "Thus, I believe that there are things in the software community that discriminate against women and drive women away from the community."
Like, perhaps, constant and unrelenting harassment:
http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/brotopia-emily-chang-tech-sexual-harassment/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/28/google-lawsuit-sexual-harassment-bro-culture
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-silicon-valley-so-awful-to-women/517788/
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/23/google-bro-culture-led-to-violence-sexual-harassment-against-female-engineer-lawsuit-alleges/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/technology/women-entrepreneurs-speak-out-sexual-harassment.html
Since one of the things he was objecting to was a code of conduct saying
Harassment and other exclusionary behavior aren't acceptable. This includes, but is not limited to: Violent threats or language directed against another person. Discriminatory jokes and language. Posting sexually explicit or violent material. Posting (or threatening to post) other people’s personally identifying information (“doxing”). Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist terms. Unwelcome sexual attention. Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
I think he doesn't have any interest in solving this problem.
Not really true. Companies hire incompetent people all the time. Companies almost never hire the best and brightest, and incompetent white males in the industry far outnumber the competent white males by an order of magnitude. If we're really going to be fair here, then incompetent women and minorities need to be hired just to catch up.
It's a hypocritical double standard when a competent woman or minority is not hired because they don't meet certain quality standards when at the same time the bozo with no skills gets hired because he got a recommendation from a friend.
> I believe that the whole point of this is to get more of these individuals who can do the work
Perhaps so. I can't guess how many people involved actually thought that they are missing out on a bunch of trannies who for some reason couldn't submit code without being specifically invited. I don't know how many of the people of involved were raised on virtue signaling.
What I DO know is that the actual results they are getting is that people who can and DO work full time on the project are leaving, because they want it to be about the code, not about people who wish they didn't have a penis.
But everyone works with people who are not the best, I don't care what project you are on. Maybe you can say you got the best out of the limited pool to choose from, but you didn't get the best in every position. Every project always has a small subset that are just hangers on, doing the minimum necessary to not get fired.
And this is LLVM, no one gets "hired" there. The code of conduct basically just says treat your coworkers with respect, which unfortunately had to be spelled out in detail because of socially incompetent people who don't know what respect means.
Would he have left if it were another organization like Outreachy but it only gave scholarships to students of low income households? Why do people of privilege get so upset when someone tries to help people who are usually marginalized or not given (or can't find) opportunities? You can't help the world by making everything equal when in reality it still won't be equal.
Thou must respect me
I donâ(TM)t respect anyone, youâ(TM)re all scum.
Add in the âoeI am outragedâ or âoeI am the victim hereâ assertions, and itâ(TM)s not hard to see that the world is getting shittier.
It used to be that you automatically gave other people respect. Now itâ(TM)s mostly an automatic âoeScrew youâ approach to others.
> You're assuming correlation implies causation
No, I'm assuming that if there's a historically under-represented group then it may be due to any number of factors--some of which may be addressed by spending a little effort actively trying to boost participation.
Sure, you can choose to look at it as a form of discrimination. Or you could develop a thicker skin and go back to your Ayn Rand novel.
my post was an adequate summary of both.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
He's leaving because the intern program openly discriminates based on gender, sexual orientation, or ancestry. Basically, they won't hire a white American male as an intern.
You're pointing to a specific outreach program, not to LLVM's entire intern program.
So LLVM only discriminates part of the time. What percentage of discrimination is OK? 10%, 25%, 49%, ...?
And since when is an "affinity group" == "discriminatory group"? Is a Christian sunday school class discriminatory because it doesn't allow non-Christian teachers? Is my college alumni organization discriminatory because you have to be an alum to join? Do you want 10,000 more examples?
All that happened here is that in your messed up self-centered universe you interpreted "let's get more LGBT/women into tech" as "let's get rid of all those cis straight white males in tech".
Why is it that bullies and narcissists always resort to crying and leaving the playground the moment someone stands up to them? It is so tiresome. The sad part is how often they successfully twist and manipulate their way into making their victims feel as if standing up was bad.
Mr. Lattner's response was beautiful, handling this temper-tantrum without allowing the manipulation strategy to succeed. Mr. Lattner should be applauded.
... policies which pretty much flatly state "white men need not apply" ...
Actually the policy is "white cis men need not apply". White men who are trans, queer, etc are welcome.
Thought someone would have noticed this typo in Outreachy's core requirements before now.
be friendly and patient,
be welcoming,
be considerate,
be respectful,
be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others, and
when we disagree, try to understand why.
The first 5 of those really conflicts with the traditions of compiler development. My experiences have always been a bunch of very intelligent people screaming at each other and aggressively trying to demonstrate their rightness and technical superiority. (I've never be in the LLVM community, so I don't know how it compares)
It's more than waiving dicks around. It's about showing who has the biggest brain. It's sort of a cross between a meritocracy and Lord of the Flies. It's probably not healthy, nor the most practical way to operate. But I do see the behavior in various degrees in many projects that are technical, specialized, and isolated from the rest of the industry.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
He's too tender to work on a project which intends to use an outreach program to bring in one intern.
Good for them.
You can only be racist or sexist if you actually say or do racist or sexist things.
What the fuck does being racist or sexist have to do with it.
It's all down to what you can be accused and lynched of. If you want a recent example, investigate the situation James Damore found himself in.
Okay, I'll concede that you probably neither know nor care about the gender, gender identity, sexual orientation or ethnicity of any of the OSS projects that you participate in.
But I'll make a wild prediction: most of the people participating are cis-male, white and straight, and a majority of that number are all three at once.
See, the problem is less that you don't know, but that I can make such a bold claim without knowing exactly how each project is made up, and almost certainly be right. (I do, of course, accept the possibility that I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.)
Encouraging people that are outside the current OSS community can't hurt anything. These are people that are underrepresented, and I bet there are a lot of people out there that are never encouraged to go into it, or are actively discouraged from being there. I know two women that work at Google that consistently face men talking down to them, despite them both being experts in their field. One of them has a male assistant who is constantly telling people that come over to talk that he's just the hired help, and my friend with the PhD is actually the person that the visitor needs to talk to. Many men don't know what to do with that, and continue to try to talk to the assistant, hoping against all hope that maybe it'll just work out if they pretend a woman isn't in charge.
A couple simple anecdotes, consistently backed up by every woman I know in tech. Trans and queer people have their own struggles with being hired at all.
To object to this program is really the height of eye-rolling fragility. This organization just wants to make the pie bigger, not take anyone's slice of pie away, and this guy can't deal with that. Good riddance. The 'one great person' fallacy needs to die—his contributions will be missed, I'm sure, but someone will take his place. Even Lattner himself wasn't irreplaceable.
when there isn't as big an asymmetry in violence between sexes...
Women suffer less violence than men, at least as objectively measured in terms of deaths per 100k inhabitants. As such, reducing the asymmetry can mean either decreasing violence against men until it reaches the same level women enjoy, or increasing violence against women until it reaches the same level men endure. I guess you're proposing the former, right?
Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
He's not entitled to fairness in the family courts.
Shit, he's not entitled to justice from the justice system.
He's not entitled to 80% of the scholarships and bursaries out there. Make that 98% if you exclude sports ones.
He's not entitled to vote without putting his life at risk.
He's not entitled to the same life expectancy as half the population.,
He's not entitled to equal education.
Hang on. Remind me, what the fuck _is_ he entitled to?
And here is the real false dilemma, wonderfully presented. You don't have to care, and are in fact being encouraged to not care. Even you're hiring people. Outreachy isn't a program set up to replace all hiring practices, just for affirmative action. If you already happen to have a demographically-representative set of people working with you, you don't have to use it. However, until that day arrives, programs like Outreachy can help you to rectify that situation. Which apparently threatens some people who never had to worry about such things before, and who think that the current discrimination scenario is better because it hasn't affected them yet.
And you're the reason Outreachy is needed.
You are about to say why it is not.
they are less likely to get a good education, less likely to have access to computers when young, less likely to have a supportive social environment and so on. These disadvantages are real.
Indeed they are, so instead of fixing anything hard you disadvantage other groups so the mental gimps can belong. Before anyone from one of those groups would have been considered an equal though more rare; after mandatory diversity everyone assumes anyone from those groups are lesser creatures just let in to meet some diversity goal. It's much worse then for truly competent minority workers to actually get recognized as competent, is that really what you wanted?
s/old white male/cuck/
Because hiring a white guy will definitely help people from groups who are traditionally underrepresented in tech?
It's a 3 month internship to help underrepresented groups get a foot in the door. By definition, that's going to to include the groups that are most represented.
Yes, I agree. A code of conduct that says you should be nice to people?!
He isn't objecting to a code of conduct that only says be nice to people; it says other things too.
Yes, I already pointed this out and linked to the actual code in my first message in this thread.
Learn to read previous messages in the thread before commenting.
Incredulity.
Just can't see his point, can you?
You're trying very hard not to.
And fuck this "just leave" attitude. They WERE the community.
Look at the people doing the polarizing.
They are intentionally destablizing communities.
The 'good' example would also run afoul of some codes of contacts, as the tone may be considered too rude.
Also, when someone is rude to someone else, without even *knowing* their race/gender identity/etc, the offended person has on occasion asserted they were the target of hurtful language because of their situation relative to one of those groups, despite lack of any hint of references to that early on.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
the same opportunities white straight men have historically enjoyed
Is that what we are doing then? Reparations for historical disparities in opportunity? Given that such historical discrimination is very country, region, and culture specific, how do you account for that? How do you account for the fact that poverty (not orientation, race, or gender) is the biggest factor in opportunity inequality? White Americans are by far the largest segment of those in poverty--60% (25+ million of 42 million), more than twice the number of black Americans.
Oh, what's that? You don't believe poor white Americans suffered from missed opportunity? Well then, in 30 years are we going to have a "white heterosexual male" reparation to address their eventual missed opportunities due to current and future "reparation" policies? No? So... this is all just another form of racism and sexism then.
Do all of those "traditional" disadvantages still apply to the present, too? What about what people would rather do with their lives instead of being in tech? Maybe they want to be a garbage person and get a lot of money for a dangerous, dirty job instead of one that requires (comparatively) more skill? Does it matter? Of course it does, because any imbalance in any field of work is obviously because someone *made* it that way unfairly, not because people are individuals and have a right to choose what they do with themselves.
P.S. Nice "I'm actually a (NICE) white guy" disclaimer. You *do* have to say that to show you're not evil like the rest, after all, no pretending you haven't committed original gender/skin sin when you were just a baby. :P
I agree, this is some weird shit. Good for him for quitting. I think this SJW stuff has hopefully jumped the shark.
Been a dev for 16 years. If any of my coworkers in that time talked to anyone or any race or gender like that, they'd rightly be fired before they finished the sentence. And it's never happened. Because that's not how normal people behave.
Your privilege is showing.
Look at Poettering. Ok, maybe not.
Just looked at the projects to which he is known to contribute.
* pulse
* avahi
* systemd
Pulse became stable for me in late 2017. Before that, it crashed 5+ times daily.
I've been purging Avahi since it first showed up and used 200% of the CPU on my dual core system.
Systemd ... needs 5+ more years before it is ready for production. A few times a day, I have to try to understand WTF!
Ok, so some assholes write sucky code.
"it is critical to the long term health of the project that we preserve an inclusive community." -- Chris Lattner
From the Outreachy Elegibility Rules: "You must meet one of the following criteria:
You live any where in the world and you identify as a woman (cis or trans), trans man, or genderqueer person (including genderfluid or genderfree).
You live in the United States or you are a U.S. national or permanent resident living aboard, AND you are a person of any gender who is Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander"
So white men, Asian men, and Middle-Eastern men are excluded. This is "inclusive" in the same sense that war is peace and slavery is freedom.
Classic. So the validity of a statement is measured against how it aligns with a CoC.
Classic. What if a CoC says: "Statements must be empirically true."
Your argument is stupid on its face.
Amazing. Linus better hope they don't adopt such a CoC for the kernel. He will no longer be a great coder and all of his points will probably no longer be valid.
Nope. He may still be a great coder, and all his points may even be valid. He'll just no longer be welcome to contribute to that project, and that project will consider themselves better off for it, which is their right.
You just love twisting logic into knots to make a point, don't you?
You're a big fan of ReiserFS, no doubt.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Cool, you sound like a sane individual.
Unfortunately your "good" example would have you literally marched out of the door by security at Google, if you were a white person and the developer you were speaking to were not.
Merit is dead. They call it an instrument of white supremacy.
Respect based on skill or accomplishments is racist and sexist.
Yeah, so true. Fuck Republicans.
Hey, did you see Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Apple, and Twitter's latest Diversity Reports that they release every 3 months, tout constantly whenever possible, and broadcast to the drooling masses of leftists who base purchasing decisions on those numbers?
> If you already happen to have a demographically-representative set of people working with you, you don't have to use it. However, until that day arrives, programs like Outreachy can help you to rectify that situation.
I don't know, or care, how many people I work with call themselves "gender-free", how many enjoy sex with women, or any of that. All of that is SO completely irrelevant to work. You and they seriously think that when I'm reviewing code submissions, to make sure they work correctly and have appropriate security, I should make sure to ask who the coder sleeps with? It's okay to introduce a security problem, if the coder has sex with multiple people over the age of 70, I guess? Your thinking is just bizarre.
> You don't have to care, and are in fact being encouraged to not care.
What part of "requirements: you must be transgender" do you not understand?
Sounds like you live in the bay area? 99.99% of the world isn't San Francisco. Open source projects especially are world-wide endeavors, and by far most people world wide are not "cis-male, white and straight, the majority of that number are all three at once".
Heck, even in your little bay area garden, most people aren't male and straight, if you haven't noticed.
And you get back to me when there are as many women in sewage as men.
And you get back to me when there are as many women in lumber as men.
And you get back to me when there are as many women in construction as men.
And you get back to me when there are as many women in garbage as men.
And you get back to me when there are as many women in special forces as men.
Why do we need to absolutely have 50% parity in clean, well paying, safe office jobs, but not dirty, dangerous, well paying jobs?
Why do men have to get dirty, get injured, and get killed?
Why do men have to get killed in war to protect women?
Why do we have to protect women by sequestering them in towers of office cubicals?
The answer, White Night, is that you, and others like you do not want equality.
You want extra special right for one group of people, and less rights for another group of people.
You want some decisions to be made not on merit, but on skin color and what people have in the crotch.
You want revenge.
It does not matter that the 30 something white male was never racist, sexist, classist, or any other 'ist'.
What matters is that they are white and 'deserve reverse discrimination' to pay for crimes of other people, in another time in the past, that they are not even related to.
That is called bigotry
I will never support bigots.
You are a bigot.
I don't support you.
Among other aspects, he's not getting paid for being the fifth highest contributor of submissions for LLVM
With 2.7% of contributions. IOW his contributions are dwarfed by the team which is why the person wiht the highest number of contrbutions thinks the COC which keeps most of the team together is the best way forward.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
In reality it depends. Culture eats process for breakfast.
Fact is that culture dominated by some group or gender may develop to be overly hostile to external and different inputs. This goes both ways, but only feminist side is addressed until now.
I'm not convinced bigotry in other direction is the way to go, but somehow such circlejerks need to be opened up somehow. Sometimes enforcing acceptable behaviour has no other alternative.
Most basketball players are tall and black. I think they should start inducting short white people for diversity reasons. Forget about quality, the team needs diversity regardless of results! Yes!
"Want to muscle your way into an OSS project, despite lacking the talent or skill (or willingness) to contribute anything other than drama, identity politics, and an insatiable urge control others (or remove them if they don't fall in line)?"
Lattner contributed over 5x as much as this guy, and supported all this stuff. He was there long before too.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
then yes, please leave. I've dealt personally with a few 'smart assholes' in my time, and in the end I usually find out that they aren't half as smart as they'd have you think, but they sure are assholes.
The code of conduct isn't particularly onerous, and if you can't behave decently, then your mamma didn't beat you enough. Please go hide from the world in your basement, making bigoted comments on XBox live.
A thousand pounds of wood moving at 300 feet per minute. Don't get in the way.
That shit is getting old, and nobody is buying it any more.
the industry. It isn't blue haired SJWs that have got us to this point. Is LLVM trying to create the BEST software or are they abandoning that goal and choosing to appease the perpetually offended. It is a lie that women are being stopped entry or being discouraged from tech jobs. A woman in tech, even in the 1990s would get an interview to see if they HAD THE SKILLS. People gravitate to what they are interested in, WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT, and what they WANT TO DO. That's how FREE MARKETS work and create wealth. You can't force people into jobs just to full-fill the wet dreams of some hand-wringing SJW. The guys who fix the roads get paid A LOT more than you think and women are under-represented in that field also, Maybe they don't want to stand in the sun all day and maybe they don't want to sit behind a keyboard all day. You can't fix personal choice.
Faith: Belief in Truth. Superstition: Belief in Falsehood.
I bet this will get those evil females to stop hating you and finally give you the pussy you deserve!
Congratulations on missing my point.
Damore has been publicly castigated for being supposedly misogynist, despite at no point actually being sexist.
What part of "IT'S ILLEGAL" do you fail to understand?
Encouraging minorities and women to apply? Hell yeah, I'm all for it, please do! But do it legally, for fuck's sake.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
May this project crash, burn and rise from its ashes as a fork run by a meritocratically-minded group
You're not interested in a meritocracy. What you are proposing is an assholeocracy with some sort of minimum standard for skill.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I'm not twisting logic. It is YOUR logic. You said: "resort to anything that would violate those community standards in order to it then your points probably aren't that valid". How is that even logical? A valid point is valid no matter how it is presented.
Thank you and all who think like you for trying to help my kid, who is both black and female. It's appreciated.
My kid, a black woman, does not in fact need your condescending "help" to contribute to any open source project. It's just patronizing and insulting for you to act like she can't do whatever she decides to do, on your own merit with her own skills - to say that she needs your help.
What she needs from you guys is for you to instead spend that time proofreading and unit testing your own shit, so she doesn't have to spend her time fixing your mistakes. The thing is, she's smarter than you guys. She's even smarter than Bruce, and Bruce is a pretty smart guy.
If there was a program to accept an intern, open to anyone regardless of skin tone or sexuality, and outreachy went out, and recruited just non-white non-male people to apply to that program, that would be *encouraging*.
By explicitly running a program that turned away any white males from even applying, they were going a step beyond. Rather than engaging in "encouragement", they were automatically filtering out people of an undesirable color and undesirable sex.
A good way of deciding if a policy is a good one, is for you to write it, and let other people swap out any racial or sexual orientation terms as they want to. If any formulation of your policy, when swapped around with terms defined by your ideological enemies, sounds bad, then it is.
Outreach means going to find underrepresented minorities, and encouraging them to apply for a job.
A job opening might usually get 99% cis-white male applicants, but with outreach, you could change that ratio to say, 50% underrepresented minority, 50% cis-white male. No guarantee the cis-white male won't win, but you change the pool of applicants. That's outreach.
Exclusion means opening up a job position *only* for underrepresented minorities. 100% you'll exclude cis-white males. This is immoral discrimination.
I am confident that your kid can do whatever she wants. The problem is that I need 100,000 more like her. And some number of those kids are perfectly capable of the job, but have impostor syndrome or some other deficit in self confidence, etc. That is not a racial issue, but on top of everything else it keeps them from getting the employment they deserve.
Bruce Perens.
Damore did not disagree that attracting women to work at Google was a bad idea. He posted that he believed the methods Google was using would not work. He posted this on a private group inside Google set up specifically to discuss controversial topics. Someone else leaked this to the world at large and Google caved to the pressure of people of poor reading comprehension.
I must commend you for abiding by the Slashdot standard of starting with a set of biased facts and never changing your mind.
Posting to undo some moderation because I only partially agree with what they said. There still seems to be a lot of discrimination out there but I am do not know how this can be a huge deal in an internet based project, unless you have a name that identifies what 'group/s' you can be in. Maybe it is time for these projects to insist on using 'fake' names or even numbers.
You don't really get that this is a threaded discussion do you?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Let me put this in terms you may understand: ...
Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is discrimination is
Yup. Read the Labor Relations Board findings. Damore wasn't fired because of his views, but because he was aggressive about pushing them on others to the point of disrupting the workplace and getting his memo leaked.
If you can't get people at work to agree with your political views by calmly discussing them when appropriate, you should stop trying to convince people at work.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Some coders, sure, and that's a good thing. Others have assorted prejudices and inflict them on others.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
They want equal outcomes for all, not equal opportunities. Remember that.
Commies keep trying it and it keeps failing.
Setup mentoring centers directly in those communities, open to anyone in the community. By sheer demographic force, you'll hit the under-represented minorities, but you'll do so without being discriminatory. Since hey, that white kid with native parents living in a ghetto neighborhood in Detroit is also disadvantaged. Certainly moreso than a rich black male from San Francisco.
The trick here is that you can't fix the problem is all you do is put up more barriers - you have to increase the pool of qualified applicants, and that's hard, slogging work through not only the educational system in the ghetto, but the culture of "keeping it real" that denigrates academic success and being "too white".
You would be TERRIBLE to work for. The problem isn't your team, it's YOU. YOU are the one who wants everyone else to bow to your whim. You don't want competition. You want to micromanage. It would be a shitty working environment.
You can encourage more minorities to apply for a job, increasing their representation in the applicant pool, without discriminating against any other applicants.
However, if you explicitly exclude applicants based on being straight, white, and male, you're actively discriminating based on sex, sexual orientation, and gender.
Fighting discrimination with more discrimination is like fighting rape with more rape. Just stop raping.
It all sounds extremely reasonable until someone paints you as a tiny David Duke for your microaggression.
The day you show up with a bikini girl on your hawaiian print shirt or wear a qipo when you're not Chinese, or really who knows what. I had someone tell me monkeywrench was racist.
A few people are chased out of the project this way and then replaced with the right kind of people and then collectively they can up the ante on this sort of shit.
How is that any different from the diversity crowd pushing their crap down everyone's throats? It's not as is this CoC forcing talent to accept viewpoints that have nothing to do with the contributions or project mission.
The freer the society, the fewer women in STEM. Are we to force women to study things that they aren't interested in?
https://www.theatlantic.com/sc...
Where are the programs to get more males into teaching? Shouldn't that also be a big problem that we need to discriminate to solve?
Why does this door swing only 1 way?
"I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and diligent -- their place is the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief."
Kurt von_Hammerstein-Equord.
All this SJW stuff comes from the stupid diligent - they're diligent and trying to force their way in -- but they're stupid (as far as this project is concerned) as they can't actually cut it as useful programmers on this project; so they're trying to make their stupid mark. You can see the problem when stupid/diligent conflict with clever/lazy...
Traditional OSS was all clever/lazy - the stupid were simply excluded. Now, they can muscle their way in.
I think you need to look at why the women aren't interested in tech. There is still a very large nature vs. nurture question there which the "more free" societies may not yet have addressed.
Bruce Perens.
You did not post a link to this organization that he does not like. See anything wrong with that picture??
From the link: "Outreachy internships are open internationally to women (cis and trans), trans men, and genderqueer people. Internships are also open to residents and nationals of the United States of any gender who are Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander."
Here is an in depth article at the Register.
As an aside, here's Huffington's post view of diversity.
Welcome to segregated America 2018. Racism and discrimination has returned. Identity politics has turned into a raging wildfire.
Thanks for making the stand Rafael, really.
You're looking at this wrong.
Under-representation is a problem because there are people that currently feel excluded from OSS, and they feel excluded partly because of the bad behaviour of some people in the OSS community, and also because after years of not being encouraged to be around, some people have decided that it would be nice to throw some encouragement to those under-represented groups.
Nope. Wrong to the nth degree.
Wanna code? Get a laptop, hook it to the next internet outlet and get going. Nobody is stoping you. It's easyer than ever, even for poor fat black lesbian girls. And - pro tip - on the internet nobody gives a flying f*ck about your race, gender or your sexual interest. And most people don't even know. Guess why so many weirdos are into coding? If however you have a neat project going, people will come, pull your code and eventually contribute. And if your a good coder and manager - even if you're at times a douche in the real world (Linus Torwalds comes to mind) - your project will fly. Wether you're a women or a black guy - nobody effing cares. Seriously. Angela Merkel is an old lady. If someone gets in her way, she squishes them like a bug and she actually does the hours it takes to be a chancellor. Nobody cares wether she's a woman or not. Not these days. 200 years ago maybe. But not today and shure as f*ck not on the intarweb.
You're welcome.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
The sheer insanity of this clause is that in practice "safety" means "my feelings" and "privileged people's comfort" means "their livelihoods".
Google has some scope to discriminate in favour of "underrepresented" groups and still fill a room with talented people. But you can't "fix" the entire employment sector this way. Even if everyone is given the exact same opportunity to work in this career, doesn't mean that everyone who ends up choosing this work will represent the same breakdown as the entire population.
I'm not saying that the current environment is giving people the same opportunities, and I would support measures to improve that situation. But blindly discriminating against talented people based on them being white males isn't the answer.
09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
Your logical fallacy today is: Tolerating the Intolerant!! Congrats!
Tolerating the intolerant is a divide by zero error. It is not a "thing."
You conservatards really like using that one though.
This person speaks truth.
MMMMMM, the hypocrisy is juicy. A conservative telling someone to accept people as they are, when you can't. I mean, would we even need these CoCs if it weren't for the fact that Mr Asshole can't stop calling people fags? Why can't they just accept and "learn to tolerate those with different beliefs and values from their own"?
Whoa... Whoa... A minimum standard for skill? Lunatics, every one of them....
Code by random walk and user rating is the only way forward.
The whiniest assed white guys complain about one internship to combat a system that implicitly favors them. The whole point of this is to reach out to people who are traditionally excluded. So the guy is not from America so may not understand the way American bias has been constructed so he gets a weak pass for not bothering to learn about the thing that so upset him, but Americans complaining? C'mon get a grip and go learn some American history, 20th Century American History -- the stuff usually excluded from textbooks because it sets off too many sensitive nerves.
All this SJW stuff comes from the stupid diligent
No it doesn't. It comes from people who are trying to create a world in which people are treated with respect irrespective of their sex, skin colour, social class, ethnicity, language, self-identification or any other characteristic not directly related to the work in which they are engaged. It seems staggeringly simple to me. Which part of it do you disagree with?
I thought with open code projects ( and the very few I was doing in the 90's),
You did your joy, posted the fixes and kept going ( I liked bug hunting and code optimization ).
if you are a drama queen, your access was removed from the project, by the project leader.
You could always get the source code and fork over to something new.
if you see me, smile and say hello.
The group he objects to being associated with is specifically about encouraging under-represented groups to participate more often in open source.
The group he objects to being associated with specifically discriminates against people who state anything that can be construed as critical towards peers when they belong to a "protected" group.
It literally has no effect on his contributions.
Until he may say something that could be construed as negative towards "protected" individuals.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Well put. Maybe in another light, we can also say, we are trying to become more human, like star trek, a better class of ourselves.
As we approach becoming human, we will have to deal with people that want right now, and truthfully, is a slow process to make a change.
1865 April the American civil war ended. 2018 black men are still considered suspects at Starbucks.
Busing started in 1972-74 ish, to help poverty-stricken kids get to the better schools on the other side of the tracks, I just recently read about a school where that ended and it went back to being a low achievement school.
Real Change is in action like this, where failure might happen, but a few will come from it better, and slowly it grows.
if you see me, smile and say hello.
What a joke. Damore responded in a intelligent manner to people who were 'aggressively pushing their political views at work' & you call him the 'asshole'...yeah, you really looked in to this didn't you? All you read was about how HE was the asshole & assumed it was true. Thanks for playing, especially for providing such an ironic closing sentence.
There is no such debate it's false dichotomy. Also in Scandinavia the social pressure is in the noise these days.
You people are really communists eh? Forcing the populous to conform to your distorted worldview regardless of their desires. Damn I thought it all ended on 10.11.1989. BTW as someone who has lived in the 'equity paradise', I for one will fight you every step of the way, though sometimes I wish you'd win and learn what the revolution does to its children. If not for the millions of innocent people that you'd kill before that I'd just sit and laugh...
Lick those capitalist boots!
Ahhhhhh - good old nepotism. Par for the course in Surveillance Valley.
#VirginMaleFeminist
When something gets infected with these codes of conduct, it's like the idiot light on the dash of your car that warns about oil.... it's a sign something is aleady wrong. These racist and sexist poicies that are always presented as anti-racist and anti-sexist, and which insist on regulating the thoughts, words, and expressions of people would NEVER just organically arise amongst hardcore geeky developers looking for the best way to make a system perform a task, they are introduced by SJW fanatics after they have already burrowed into a group like termites in a piece of fine woodwork.
Sorry silverspoon broham, your socjus Newspeak has lost its shiny. EVERYONE knows your anti-democratic CoC is a tool for witch hunting. Fuck off, bigot.
I'm quite sure I didn't write that abortion of a sentence you just quoted me on.
Time to up the meds, amigo.
You mocked someone for the apparently obscene notion that alignment of a statement measured against *a* CoC, as if that were a logic violation.
It isn't if "don't be full of shit." is the stipulation violated.
What you want is the freedom to say whatever the fuck stupid bullshit you want in a group and them to be forced to continue accepting you. No, go play with yourself in the corner, kiddo.
Never heard of it. I looked it up, still don't know what it stands for.
He's entitled to free insults from rich dumb "social justice" hypocrites, of course.
You lost me at "cis-". Why do you feel it necessary to use hate speech?
A minimum level of skill!! What a fucking outrage! How dare these Nazis want someone capable of doing something to do something!
And he'll be ousted the second someone doesn't like his code review asking for an improvement, because he's a fucking white male perpetrating white meritocracy.
Your bullshit lies worked 5 years ago. We've seen the end game.
#SocialJusticeRacism
No, it literally is the exact fucking opposite.
From the article, he is quitting explicitly because they are promoting an agenda which directly and unapologetically discriminates against asian and white males, in the rotting sheepskin lie of "equality".
Actual equality would be providing opportunities for everyone regardless of their skin color or sex... You know, the actual definition of "equal"?
You fucking imbecile.
I'm just going to leave this here... And the wage disparity may not be as big as the perception is, though I don't have the articles at my fingertips. (As I recall, the ones that show the largest gaps did not do a proper apples-to-apples comparison of the positions held by the women in the study.) But I still fail to understand why there's this dire need to get more women and more non-"caucasian"-cisgender men in this specific field. The lack of them is not in of itself a problem any more than a lack of male nurses is in of itself a problem either. I grew up as more or less an outcast among my peers due to my interest in computing. I'm sure many others who are my age or older that work in this field had similar experiences, at least in certain countries.
Personally, I would rather have actively good developers rather than ones that merely pass a minimum standard of skill. But you're welcome to choose otherwise.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I remember it wrong or the internet was this place where people was an anonymous nickname and people rated you on the base of how you contribuite? If i don't remember it wrong it was what has created so much great projects and ideas ( and some *really* nasty things too :) ).
What if your comment is not perceived to be "welcoming" in the sense these CoCs prefer, bringing identity politics to the world of software engineering?
"Welcoming" is a relative to behaviour in general. If you show the same attitude to the person you are supposed to be "welcoming" to, due to his/her inborn special quality, as other random contributor without those qualities, you are not welcoming.
At that point you are breaking the ambitious CoC. You should either praise a commit more than its technical merit, or at least keep your mouth shut not to break the welcoming attitude. At the point where merge would really need to be refused, but any non-sugar-coated explanation on quality would be perceived as a racist or otherwise minority (eh, women as a minority!) attacking action as CoC would have opened an avenue to interpret it so, everybody has to start being dishonest regarding their values, and the value of chosen CoC.
Merging code which doesn't fulfill sufficient technical quality would lead, when repeated, to inevitable quality debt, often to the point it demands massive rewrites later on. This is the reason why Linus takes no bullshit as an excuse. The kernel would simply fall into an unrepairable junk if he would. Not merging would put "welcoming" attitude written down to these CoCs at question; what does it mean if in practice? Do non-technical merits or minority statuses even need to be mentioned in a CoC if they don't really mean anything on day-to-day development?
In my opinion, only place of "welcoming" on these CoCs is to disallow people from preventing people from joining the "community" on basis of their background. But once they have joined, that welcomeness is done; all code and all emails written should be judged by technical merit only. Actually starting to refer to identity politics after that point should lead to being forced out of the community, not upwards on it.
I can easily see why SJWs don't approve. I also see why Linux the kernel still exists and why the attitude Linus has on making it stay so is the only sane approach in the long term.
Are you shaming someone for the number of sexual partners they've had? How very patriarchal of you.
I've experienced being talked down to by male and female colleagues at various points throughout my career. It is quite possible that they were not actually talking down to me, and I only perceived it. I also talk down to people when they don't seem to understand what I'm trying to tell them. If being talked down to is a real problem for anyone, they're overly fragile.
As for your assertion that one is fragile to protest reverse discrimination or affirmative action, I make two points. There is a position to fill, and some people are excluded from it based on their sex or color alone. This is part of a wider trend away from the principles of meritocracy. To stand firm on ones principles is not an act of fragility. Wherever positions of power are not filled on merit, society at large is adversely affected.
Imagine if we insist that the sciences start accepting as fact the submissions of uneducated people chosen based on criteria other than merit. That's the end-game.
"assholeocracy"
I'm gonna use that
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The labour board thought he was sexist. I'm willing to bet that the court agrees when his lawsuit finally matures.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I've never gone more than three sentences without referencing someone's tiddies. Sometimes I use it as a greeting.
That's probably why he was talking about Tanya Lattner, who has not contributed 5x as much. You know, the one who actually suggested the Outreach program...
The SJW stuff comes from morons that think cute and cuddly words are enough to put a lustre on atrocious actions. You know, like Soviet.
Here's a guide to help you.
If you think there's a difference between an asshole and a rectal exit then congratulations, you are dumb enough to qualify for the chuch of social justice. If you think discrimination is acceptable based on the skin color of the victim, then you will fit right in. If you think everyone is equal but some are more equal then others... And of course, if you think differences between the sexes are all cultural and we are all the same but men are biologically determined to be rapists, you just might win a SocJus award.
Hope that helps.
#MeToo #MeToo #MeToo #MeToo. What guy wants to work in an environment where the next lawsuit and or threat comes?
I'm a white cis-male with a disability. Their policies doubly discriminates against me. People with disabilities are underrepresented. Lets bash some people in the head until they get brain damage, that way companies can improve their disability hire metrics.
I find it curious how certain "discriminated" minorities, often quite strongly politicized ones, want to get in projects which they observe to be full of political problems.
Expense of starting a new software project is basically zero nowadays. On the age of widespread open source and free, polished version and project management tools, forking an existing project is easier than ever. Still, I haven't heard of a single (at least successful) project where these do-gooders would have concentrated on doing their own work, instead of forcing others to their political straightjacket.
Believe it or not, this is not new behaviour. I remember reading a programme publication of a certain, established and mainstream Social Democrat party in Europe from 1920s or 1930s. It was about socialization of property, such as factories and whatnot. What really struck me on the programme was not that they planned to take over others' property under control of their political agenda, but that they actually actively supported the idea of letting capitalists first develop their businesses to fully formed form before taking them over.
Some people are not afraid of hard work and to start from scratch. Some people are very eager to see themselves as repressed, and entitled to take advantage of work others have done without any association with the political agenda or project of the "entitled."
No matter how wrong "politically incorrect" the views might be, I do value those who do more than those who demand. After all, someone has to do things in order them to get done. A compiler doesn't write itself on basis of a strong political programme, but as a result of effort put to writing of a compiler.
AC writes foaming rage filled rant and gets +5. Wow.
Grow up you lot! Women, trans, gay, black, asian, etc are people. (I can't believe I have to say that.) What they think counts too. Yes, people without a lot of power actually matter.
That's what all this is really about, other AC: You are losing your clear (unearned) power advantage and need to have a good cry about it. Go on, let it out. It helps.
Capcha: "repress" - how joyfully appropriate.
That's it? You're not gonna grill him on telling other people what they're thinking?
The labour board thought he was sexist.
Yup. It's not that Damore himself was sexist, but that this labour board THINKS he was/is sexist.
Basically what people do to you all the time when they downmod. They THINK you're some SJW flamebaiting troll. So they downmod you based on what they THINK you are, not what you think you are.
The labour board told Damore what he was thinking, and when he (and his supporters) object, they're called trolls, alt-right nutjobs, freeze peach warriors, etc.
Totally agree.
Best person for a job is the best person for a job. Saying you want someone who is "good enough" and has some other attribute that fits a "gap" you're trying to fill means you're not being capitalist at all. It also isn't democratic when you think about it. You have to look at polarising movements for such thinking. Sending a man to die in war is ok - but we don't want to send in the women! Well, men's lives matter too - and deserve the same respect. So saying we need more women or blacks or indians, mexicans, gays, trans-genders, or what ever your flavour - in a given position in a given sector - doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're generalising, and saying women make better teachers, or tall people are better at basket ball - then you may be correct - but employment should be based on an individual's merits, not some other attribute. So any movement that encourages one demographic at the expense of another is not a movement I can get behind.
Microsoft trotted out a blind buy on stage to convince the world he could develop code in Visual Studio. Very moving to see him achieve something - but at the same time, what the audience of developers could plainly see, he spent about 2 minutes figuring out. So extrapolate from this - a comparison with another developer who is not blind, and clearly, the more advantaged person would be the better employee - if this oen test were the only criteria. In other words, best person for the job is teh right person. Encouraging groups of people to consider a career in technology by telling them how easy it is, and that anyone can do it - and that Obama learned to program in one afternoon... come on! If it really were that easy, we'd be better off working for Walmart.
The truth is, people don't want in. Why? Because despite all the programmes to promote the industry - things are not really getting easier - they're getting harder, more complex. We talk about being lazy! But we acknowledge there's far too much to know just to be effective. We as an industry are in a big mess. Promote that! See what happens. The industry is a hot potatoe, and no one wants to get stuck with it.
We don't have a "labour" board. Fuck off, Mohammed.
Or into nursing.
The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
Acceptable to whom, Kimosabe?
You missed the part where he said women were biologically inferior at tech.
Ok, snowflake.
Presumably the diversity people aren't actually disrupting the workplace. It isn't a matter of disagreeing with viewpoints, it's a matter of what is done.
It seems fairly common to have dissenting views from the majority, get obnoxious about it, and blame any negative reaction on the views, not the presentation.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
It sure does, guy who will never in his life have his resume skipped because his name is Julie or Malik.
You sure are solving all the world's problems right now.
It would be nice to quote the pasaage in question and not merely assert its existence.
Ezekiel 23:20
Presumably the diversity people aren't actually disrupting the workplace.
Actually, they did. It wasn't Damore who leaked the memo publically to create more disruption via outside pressure (Damore wrote his memo for internal discussion).
It isn't a matter of disagreeing with viewpoints, it's a matter of what is done.
No, it is about viewpoints, just not the one you may be thinking of. The disagreement of viewpoints isn't over anything related to gender discrepancy in STEM/Google or the topic of Damore's memo, but over what feelings and intentions Damore's words meant
One side insist his was thinking of sexist/bigoted things when he wrote those words meant to disrupt the workplace, and the other side (the side that includes Damore, who you'd think knows what he's intentions and thoughts were) says that's not what he meant.
Or put it in other words, it wasn't about what was done. It was about the intent, and it's just one big he said she said, with one side saying Damore intended to be sexist/discriminatory/bigoted/disruptive/etc and the other saying he's not.
You can tell this is about intent and not actions if you read the labour board memo. It mentions how Damore should have known better on what his memo would do to the workplace. Telling other people they "should have known better" is just a euphemistic way of telling them what they're thinking, how they should think, and blaming the victim.
If the genders were reversed, it would be like some man telling a woman that "she should have known better" not to have done that thing that made her man angry. "Baby why you make me hit you?"
You seem confused. SJWs want people to treat others with respect BECAUSE of their sex, skin colour, social class, ethnicity, language, self-identification or any other characteristic not directly related to the work. Meanwhile, sane people are telling them to fuck off and that they will continue their merit-based approach.
I read the post and yes, he is sexist. The point is that Google didn't want a sexist, misogynist employee as he will be most likely working with the other half of the population.
Except that I added the report of the Labor Relations Board to what the Damore partisans were saying.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The Labor Board also discussed what Damore was actually doing, not just what his views were.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Were people aggressively pushing their political views at work in the same sense? Damore was working inside a large population that didn't share his views, and saw things happening around him that he disagreed with, sure. That's not having other views pushed onto you in a disruptive manner.
I did read the Labor Relations Board ruling, which probably means I've looked into his behavior in more detail than most other posters.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The point is that Google didn't want an actively sexist and misogynist employee being aggressive with his views in ways that disrupted the company. You can be sexist and misogynist and still work professionally with women.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Which part of it do you disagree with?
The part where respect is automatic, severely devaluing it. If you want respect, you must earn it. Folks that insist that everybody gets respect, regardless of attitude or competence, do so because they are unable or unwilling to earn the respect of others.
You: "I'll create a world where people are forced to respect me!"
Nobody wants to live in the world you would create, except you.
hey dumbass. Studies show when people know your gender they are more likely to pick you if you are female. Your argument is wrong. See gender redaction studies.
The Labor Board also discussed what Damore was actually doing, not just what his views were.
That's irrelevant. What matters is the basis for the board's decision, and it wasn't based on what he "actually did", but what the board THOUGHT was Damore's intentions behind what he did.
The judgment is basically "ok, here's what he did. A bunch of it is protected by free speech, but there's a bunch that isn't protected by free speech. And we THINK when he did them, he had bad intentions/was wrongthinking, so Google can fire him for that"
You know as well as I do that there is no such thing as a meritocracy. This alleged "merit-based approach" is nothing more than a lie you, and others here, tell yourselves to justify antisocial behavior.
Ask yourself: If this was truly a meritocracy, why do underrepresented groups need to hide some aspect of their identity or risk being treated unfairly? The answer is obvious, of course. There is no meritocracy. They will be treated unfairly regardless of the quality of their work should anyone discover that they're not a 20-30 white male.
What I'm most interested in hearing, if you don't mind a bit of self-reflection, is why you so strongly want to deny that simple truth. Is it fear? Maybe you get a sense of satisfaction using abusive language? Do you think yourself superior because of your race, gender, or other property and want to maintain that belief? Something else entirely?
Required reading for internet skeptics
I only see this LLVM page regarding Community Code of Conduct, which doesn't include the content you claimed is part of their Code. Where did you get your content from (i.e. the part that begins, "Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort")?
Er no. I just poked around a bit on the LLVM and Outreachy websites and as best I can tell:
*This is about 1 internship slot, not the entire scholarship program (and not even that because it doesnt look like one happened with LLVM this year through Outreachy, period). Outreachy would provide funding for an intern in one of the underserved groups they cater to.
*It doesnt mean there can't be other interns outside that program
*This doesnt seem to effect the rest of LLVM's scholarship program
I'm hard pressed to figure out what de Espindola's problem is with this, or with the code of conduct which really seems to boil down to "don't call someone out because of race, gender, ethnicity, etc, and don't get upset if they tell you to go shove it in return"
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
That's SJW logic for you. Basically they can replace "and" with "because". "You said this code was shit and it was written by a lesbian midget" becomes "You said this code was shit because it was written by a lesbian midget".
And it's no defense that you didn't know. You suspected it, and even if you manage to exceed the bounds of logic by proving they you didn't suspect it, you still treated them the same way you would have done if you *did* know.
Shame on you!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
...and nothing of value was lost
It's not illegal. I'm going to assume that he knows it's not illegal and thus didn't consider that claim in his reply.
Required reading for internet skeptics
I know two women that work at Google that consistently face men talking down to them, despite them both being experts in their field. One of them has a male assistant who is constantly telling people that come over to talk that he's just the hired help, and my friend with the PhD is actually the person that the visitor needs to talk to. Many men don't know what to do with that, and continue to try to talk to the assistant, hoping against all hope that maybe it'll just work out if they pretend a woman isn't in charge.
It is great that you know some women. Did you also know that other women treat women in the work place worse than your examples of men treating women. They would expect the man to be in charge also, and would be ever worse in the way they treat the other women. It has been studied and is not a man thing.
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
Some group should just make a CoC that says SJW's are not allowed. Then the problem will be prevented in the first place.
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
I'm that Social Justice Warrior that some folks object to. What I have learned from this discussion is that if you really want to piss off the folks who don't like SJWs, having an affirmative action program is very highly effective. And you can start for less than $10,000 with this group: outreachy.org. Or if you don't have the cash, they can get it elsewhere and put a deserving person from a disadvantaged group (like a woman) in your organization for a 3-month internship. I am definitely going to make use of that knowledge!
Bruce Perens.
The labor board caved to public outcry, stupid SJW outcry really.
If I came to your house and brought I crowd with me, does that mean we can bully you because there are more of us than you? How about punch you or just kick your dog?
Suck that socialist dick.
OK jobless millennifail.
Women don't find Beta-males attractive, and feminists won't fuck you without their strapons.
Waaaaah! Treating other people the same way white men get treated is racist to white people!
Waaaaaaah!
Lesson learned: when abandoning a volunteer effort out of concern that it is becoming an environment where witch hunts can thrive, best not to say so to the hunters.
"I'm leaving for reasons I'd rather not share. Those who disagree with my reasons would get likely all butt-hurt and nasty if I did, and I don't need the aggravation. If in the future it turns out my reason for leaving is no longer reason enough, I'll be back."
Nope. Wouldn't work. If they didn't know, they'd try to guess. The guesses might even be worse than the reality.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
Well, the social justice warriors certainly can't code. Perhaps they will find someone else's coattails to ride on.
Stop forwarding discrimination and obey the law.
You sound positively deranged. Get help before it's too late.
The group he objects to being associated with specifically discriminates against people who state anything that can be construed as critical towards peers when they belong to a "protected" group.
Well that's just wrong. The CoC says you should be nice, and you can't criticize people for belonging to under represented groups. You can still constructively criticize work if it's done poorly.
Until he may say something that could be construed as negative towards "protected" individuals.
I see, since someone might get angry with him in the future for a bogus reason, so he's going to become a hermit. So wise.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
"Is that what we've been striving for?"
Yes. In the end almost all these programs come down to being driven by revenge. There is an angry glee in the "how does it feel now?!?!?!?!" smug tone.
These are not people who want to elevate anything, they simply want to feel the rush of revenge. They are trolls.
Are the women of today genetically less capable of grasping code than the women of 30 years ago? Nonsense.
Your statement is intentionally obtuse on multiple fronts.
- The fact a group is underrepresented does not necessarily imply they are not capable, that is your own assumption chosen to incense people.
- Coding today is significantly different than what it was 30 years ago. Everything is different about it, the market, the pay, the environment, the ecosystems. Making assumptions about what people would do today based on the people that did it last century it's like being surprised fewer people like 80s disco today.
If they CAN do the work as well or better then they've already been hired. If they CAN do the work at all they've been hired. Tech right now is under such scrutiny about being sexist and racist they're willing to hire pretty much anybody that has bare minimum capabilities as long as they're a minority, woman, or gender-deviant.
A large part of the problem is that people think software development is some cushy easy job. The reality is that it's extremely stressful and time consuming. Often, women get a whiff of how unbelievable the conditions are and nope the fuck out. Men are far FAR more willing to accept running their social life and health into the ground for decent pay. If you want more women in tech, tech needs to start treating employees like they're real people. Of course, once you get all the benefits included into the package the take home pay will be ground into nothing.
Women, on average, are unwilling to throw away so much of their life to work. Those women who are willing... ALREADY HAVE HIGH PAYING JOBS. Career focused people make money at the expense of happiness, the reason they get paid so much is that it has to be worth everything else in your life. You either don't have children or you rarely get to see them. You don't get to take weekends off because there's still work that has to be done, you friends are partying and you're working. Spouse? They'll be alone a lot so you have to consider if the pay is worth THAT too. No spouse? Good luck finding one who is willing to put up with you barely being available that isn't just in it for your money.
Most high paying jobs require sacrifices, and men (on average) are more willing to make those sacrifices. It's part of how men are raised, to be expendable and provide. To be useless is essentially to be dead, and it's the source of a lot of depression in men. It makes men socially primed to take jobs that pay well regardless of conditions. That's the reason you see men in development (and sanitation, and construction, and pretty much every dangerous job).
If you want women in tech, you'd have to change the entire structure of tech to be less stressful. If you make tech more welcoming, the wages will drop since there will be more people willing to do the job. The premium rates aren't because they're men, it's because they know the job is extremely rough and they have to find the people who are capable and willing to do it.
Fun fact: Based on the US population vs the demographics of the tech industry
*drumroll*
White people are underrepresented in tech.
This is because Asians are grossly overrepresented in tech. Literally every other race is underrepresented because Asians have 3x the representation in tech vs their population. So yeah! Any non-Asian would be "traditionally underrepresented in tech". But that's inconvenient because you can't just blame white people for the problem.
By forcing tension and ostrisizing people?
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
There speaks a clear expert on sex and sexuality.
No, being nice to each other by being nice to each other. It's funny that no-one ever answers the simple question "Which part of it do you disagree with?".