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Kind of a tangent, but fwiw the Vatican no longer handles its own prosecutions or imprisonments. Under the Lateran Treaty of 1929, the Vatican has autonomy in policing, but prosecution is handled by the Vatican handing the prisoner over to the Italian court system and requesting them to be prosecuted:

At the request of the Holy See, or by its delegate who may be appointed in single cases or permanently, Italy shall provide within her for the punishment of offences committed within the Vatican City, save and except when the author of the offence shall have taken refuge in Italian territory, in which event he shall immediately be proceeded against according to the provisions of the Italian laws.

> Banned Bibles? What in the world? No, you could read them and study them.

Uh, you might to read up on your history.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/banned.htm

Reams and reams of documentation with full source information is here: Bible Possession Once Banned by the Catholic Church!

(recall that airplanes can survive instant conversion into a convertible).

Specific example being Aloha Airlines Flight 243 - the photos prove that dr2chase's words do not exaggerate what happened.
Of the over 90 people on board, the only one who died was a stewardess who got swept out

Could the underwear bomber have done any worse than what happened on Aloha airlines flight 243?

has anybody established that punching a hole would take down the whole plane?

Aloha Airlines Flight 243 suffered explosive decompression on April 28, 1988, but landed safely.

Here is an image of the plane after it landed.

the riaa is as if the monk scribe's union rose up and sued operators of printing presses

Actually, they did, or at least the Catholic Church as a whole fought the widespread possession of the bible. In many ways, monopolies act the same regardless of their target market, which is why you see a lot of corrupt popes back in the day.

the decompression itself would fuck up the plane big time and kill a bunch of people, if not bring the plane itself down.

Hhhm... Exaggerate much, do you?
A little bullet hole ain't going to do anything.

There's reality-based experience that says cabin de-pressurization won't have anything like the effect you describe. Doesn't anyone remember Aloha 243? The top of the plane peeled right off (not just a wussy little window blow-out) at altitude. There was one fatality, a flight attendant who wasn't strapped in. The pilots landed the plane safely.

As for mixing the explosives being "certainly possible" I think you should look at the Perry Metzger article I've also cited elsewhere.

Nazism was not "Christian," and you won't be able to find any evidence of that (aside from some website run by such as yourself, making yet more undocumented claims to that effect).

You mean no evidence other than every single relevant fact? Are you off your meds, or do you just know nothing whatsoever about the subject and just felt like lying?
Extremist religiousness is a critical part of fascism. Christianity just happened to be the common religion chosen by the Italian and German fascists just as it has been chosen by the current fascist administration of America.

some examples pulled from this website which I do not run and which lists numerous sources for the facts that prove you to be either hideously ignorant or a liar:

In 1929 Mussolini signed the Lateran Treaty with Pope Pius XI. This established Catholicism as the official religion of the State, gave the Pope increased political powers, gave papal sovereignty to Vatican City, ensured that the Catholic religion would be taught in all schools, compensated the Pope with $90 million for the loss of papal property since 1870, and cemented broad Catholic support for Mussolini.

In Hitler's 1920 NSDAP 25 point agenda, point number 24:

        We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence and do not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

        The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

What was ultimately important in Germany was a belief in God, whatever form that belief took, as this 1937 article on education, Educational Principles of the New Germany; What Schools and Parents Need to Know About the Goals of National Socialist Education, states:

        Life comes from God and returns to God. All life and all races follow God's ordinances. No people and no race can ignore them. We want the German youth to again recognize the religious nature of life. They must realize that God wants the individual as well as the whole people, and that they lose contact with life when they lose contact with God! God and nation are the two foundations of the life of the individual and the community. We want no shallow and superficial piety, rather a deep faith that God guides the world, that he controls it, and a consciousness of the relationship between God and each individual, and between God and the live of the people and the fatherland. The National Socialist state will promote such a deeply religious educational system. We want parents to support and strengthen this by honesty and by good example.

There are so many other examples that it is extremely hard to believe that you could have done any research whatsoever into the subject before spouting that ignorant nonsense. Try actually using your brain once in a while, it'll make the world a better place for everybody.

Koochie koochie!

If this plane could fly I don't think a few windows missing is going to hurt.

A rather low resolution image is
Here
Probably a better example is Aloha Airlines flight 243, which looked a whole shitload worse.
Check out the picture on page 2
Only one fatality, which is kind of amazing if you look at the pictures (flight attendant blown out).

http://zalus.koga.hu/lotrdvd.gif
Said tongue in cheek since I'm buying all the LOTR DVD's...

Here's a nice map for fans...
http://www.aloha.net/~shaug/pix/lotr/middle-earth_ 1161x1024.jpg

--
Peace

Do you really think that five guys armed with box cutters are going to be able to kill a plane full of people with nothing to lose? Or two guys armed with guns?

If you're going to go watch the first shot and you want to party, hang out at the airport the night before. Mojave proper is dead.

Secondly, when the wind kicks up the night before, don't go home discouraged. It was gusting up to 70 mph around 3 am the last time around and when the sun came up, the gusts completely died off.

Don't expect to have a great view of what's happening. The spaceship is tiny when it's 200 feet away and invisible when it's 10 miles away. Maybe this time around, they'll turn on a smoke generator just before they launch so you know where to look but then again, they may not. Last time, the craft was almost directly in the sun and it was awfully hard to see until it was spewing smoke.

While you're there, be sure to check out the Aloha Air plane that peeled its skin in midflight. It's next to the two rightmost 747s that are parked half a mile northeast of the viewing area.

>"Hate speech" only refers to speech that is intended to incite violence against individuals or groups.

"Hate speech" which incites violence, such as the bible, for a true example.

As an atheist, I really shouldn't care, but as someone who believes that only in a society where people don't have to discuss their true feelings (not matter what they might be) behind closed doors can we begin to make progress towards ethical and decent conduct, I have to say censoring the bible and emebllishments on it is just plain wrong.

Otherwise we will end up with secret societies (KKK) that remain outside government radar and do far more illegal and unethical things than uttering offensive language.

....not to mention the inevitable lawsuit from Charo

Actually, come to think of it, I cant' seem to recall a single one. Can you?

Pilots carrying handguns on their planes used to be routine, and in fact, when carrying US mail, required by the federal government.
When this person speaks of complex systems, he's obviously forgetting one over-riding principle: KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.
When you give pilots guns, do what other federal agencies and the majority of police departments do- each pilot is responsible for their own firearm, and must have it in their possesion at all times. So yes, they carry it through the gates, and security checkpoints. They certainly don't hand them over at any time to the high school dropouts who clean the plane or run the security checkpoints. They would carry the gun on them, on their hips, or maybe some quick draw holster at their controls (only while their seated.) They should be required to take lessons in weapons retention, so that terrorists would have a harder time getting the weapons from them.
Think about it carefully- when terrorists bust through the cockpit doors, they're going to be close, and their going to be nicely framed targets in a little doorway. Assuming the pilots are vaguely aware of whats happening in the cabin behind them, they're going to be prepared to annihlate one or multiple attackers.

Stun guns and other non-lethal methods often don't work well for single attackers, and are useless for multiple attackers.

Picture this scenario: Terrorists, armed with whatever, try to take over the plane. They are highly trained in improvised weapons and hand to hand combat and there are four of them (a la 9-11. Dealing with the single air marshall that mightbe there would be easy- have one guy start everything, and when the Air Marshall jumps up to take care of the first, the others get out of their seats and take care of him. Presumably, this would be alot of commotion, and the pilots would hear it from the flight attendants, through the doors, our through a cabin monitor of some sort.

Now once they have the cabin under control, they go for the cockpit. They bust through the cockpit door (even if it is reinforced, it won't take long) Here's where the scenario splits.

A. The first guy gets hit with a taser the pilots might have (or blocks it completely with a seat cushion shield.)The others then use whatever they have to kill or subdue the pilots, and take control of the plane. The air force sends up an F-15 and drops the airliner like a bad habit, Hopefully over a rural area. All onboard are lost, maybe some on the ground. National treasures are safe.
B. The terrorists bust through the door. The pilots have the plane locked into autopilot so they can deal with the issue at hand. The shoot the first terrorist. The second. The third. Whats left of the fourth after the air marshall, whom the terrorists already killed, dealt with him. Maybe they're such poor shots they accidentally shoot one person on board, maybe two. The plane lands ASAP (this takes at least 15 minutes from cruising altitude.) Innocent Casualties: 1 or 2, tops. Terrorist casualties: 100% & mission failure. The air force saves a $70,000 Air to Air missle for a target drone.

The crypto-gram article discounts the fears of airliner integrity, so I'll be brief. Suffice it to say, if this airplane can land safely from 24 000 feet, a few bullet holes don't mean shit.
Other concerns:
We can't trust pilots with guns
Most pilots are ex-military that carried guns all the time when flying for the Air Force. Besides, we trust them with a $40 Million dollar aircraft and 100-400 passangers; why not a gun?
Someone innocent might die
Better than losing the entire plane. Even if they try and fail, I sure as hell prefer a fighting chance with a solid advantage.
The pilots should focus on landing the plane, or engaging in manuvers to through the terrorists off balance
How can the pilots land the craft if they're dead? How can they land it if they're doing crazy manuvers? How can an air marshall do his/her job under crazy manuvers. Answer to all: They can't.

Pilots should be armed, end of story. The prospects look reasonably good for this becoming a reality through legislation, though the feds are bound to fuck it up by making it too complex and cumbersome. I think the same legislation also limits liabilities to airlines in case of accidental shootings in a crisis situation.

We've know they're out to kill us, and if they come here to do it, let's send them to Allah without us.

I was driving one of my 8 series (an M Tech believe it or not, we're talking a potential 200 MPH + ). Anyhow, on a country road we were forced to slow down (I don't speed BTW) because some loon had been pulled for speeding. Anyhow 5 minutes later, said loon is behind and harrassing me 'cause I'm only doing 30 in a 30 zone. I hope he gets banned 'cause he just doesn't understand.

[BTW, Driver Psychology is a useful link for those who are interested in the other major component of traffic -- or simply have a friend they want to keep from killing themselves on the highway]

I used to take my friends to a cabin in Laconia, NH for Thanksgiving each year. One year, (early 80's) we brought several (Apple II) computers with us and attacked this problem, coding and discussing it as we conducted our usual festivities. The joke was that we'd win a Nobel Prize (The Peace Prize, we decided) and the undying gratitude of the Billions in the Next Millenium.

Alas, coding/modifying the digital automata took most of our time , and none of us had more than a couple of years driving experience. (Yikes, I can't believe it even ran in something like real time on a 64K machine with 191K floppies (this was before hard drives for personal computers) running on a 8/16 bit CPU at a true speed of 1/2 MHz) We never made our breakthrough -- and the hangovers on the last day of that trip made several of us repress the memory of the entire weekend.

Well, here we are, hard upon the next millenium, and I was wondering what software is out there that could implement a digital automata traffic simulator. We had notebooks full of elaborate scenarios - traffic light synchronization, types of accidents, ambulances, cars going in/out os various types of commercial parking lot entryways, etc. It was a low-res SimCity of traffic. -- much more fascinating than it sounds. (And hey, if a million late night hackers can't solve traffic, then we should go back to the single wheel and start over)

Can anyone suggest a program - perhaps Object Oriented - that would let me repeat and expand on my original experiments? I *still* drive differently because of what I learned (At last! Driver's Ed that means something!)

His homepage is http://www.ender.com/~icee/.

He dated a girl who later committed suicide, partly due to his idiocy.

He used to hang out on EFNet #depression.