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Next, unfortunately, is The Pacific Solution: we send them to prisons in Nauru and PNG.

I just wish this was a joke, not reality :-(

This is about the third comment I have started typing a reply to, and I'll post this one because I just can't let another one slide.

By what criteria (and where did you derive them from) are you judging the US Vs Syria? What do you say to Guantanamo bay? What would you say if you were incarcerated without any judicial proceeding for an indeterminate time without any access to the outside world, and subjected to torture? Would you say your captors showed great respect for human rights? What would you say if your country (palestine) was being bombed and locked down at will by an invading/collonising force (israel) going against the will of the world (read UN) where all the funds to support the oppressors is funded by another country (guess who) entirely? Would you say either the oppressors or their funders showed respect for human rights? What would you say of a country which places more black 20-30s in prison then college or saves the death penaly for black on white murders? Human rights? What about Florida in the Bush Gore election where Jed ensured he could deliver the states votes by first excluding 22,000 voters (95%+ incorrectly) and then controlling the count of the votes? Need I point out that the UN should be sent into the US to monitor your elections from now on (as they are all over the world) if you wish to vote in the UN anymore. What about a country that first massacred their indigenous people (oh look, Australia gets a look in aswell) and then proceeds to also import other "lesser" people to do their work (including producing children they can sell) and when they finally have to "give up on slaves" they simply imprison people instead and make them work for 23c/hour. You don't seem to be taking responsibility for the corrupt regime which runs your own country which you also put in place.

The point of the UN is that by allowing all countries to have a vote, the wild rantings of one nation (however powerful) cannot carry the opinion of "the world". Heaven forbid that W and his lap dog Tony could actually carry the UN vote alone on the basis that they have spent the most of weapons for the past 50 years!

When the US has it right you can all come back and start preaching to the rest of us how we've got it all wrong, in the meantime either close your borders and leave us alone, or respect our humanity, talk to us and stop telling us about your morals.

All men are created equal, though some are more equal than others?

Are you sure?

I only post anonymous because I don't want to be labelled a troll. I'm not,I'm just pointing out some facts.

They don;t exactly do a lot to minimise civilian deaths while they do it though. /a> 1,500 left homeless and two children killed, or how about this?,or this?

1. China People's Daily

The "China People's Daily" is run by the Beijing government and is the mouthpiece of the Chinese government. It has conducted a number of terrorist activities in Tibet. You can find some descriptions at Tibet Online and Amnesty International.

Further, operatives of the "China People's Daily" were stationed at the Chinese embassy in Serbia in 1999 when the embassed was hit by American bombs. The majority of people in China (which includes Taiwan Province and Hong Kong) supported the Serbian military aggression against the Kosovars. The Serbians executed thousands of men, women, and children in Kosovar in an attempt to remove them from Kosovo: the Serbia military raped the women and slit the throats of the children. The Americans sent military forces to Serbia in an attempt to stop the genocide. At the time, Chinese operatives of the "China People's Daily" operated secretly from the relative safety of the embassy and relayed communications to the Serbian army and helped the Serbians to defeat American electronic warfare. (reference: "NATO hit embassy on purpose")

The Serbian aggression against the Kosovars was strongly supported by the Chinese and is the first major case of genocide after the genocide of the Cambodians by Pol Pot. The Chinese also supported Pol Pot.

... from the desk of the reporter

What [pen] do [sic] the geeks of Slashdot use for writing?

Pens, like toothpaste and batteries, are a commodity. Most pens are identical in function, quality, and price.

So, which pen do we buy? In general, when we purchase a commodity, we should base our decision almost solely on ethical issues. What ethical issue? The issue is the country where the pen is manufactured. When we buy products made in a particular country, we indirectly lend our support to its value system. In particular, we should avoid products that are "Made in China" (which includes "Made in Taiwan" and "Made in Hong Kong"). You can find many reasons for avoiding products "Made in China" by visiting Amnesty International and Tibet Online".

You can also find some reasons at CNN. According to "Kill and cull: China rejects doctor's testimony", the Chinese forcibly remove the organs and skin from non-consenting prisoners on death row. Sometimes, Chinese "doctors" remove all the skin while the prisoner is awake and conscious. The bulk of the customers who receive these organs come from Taiwan.

... from the desk of the reporter

Both incidents were great tragedies, but I think you're belittling Kent State. Four students were killed, one paralyzed, and eight more injured by the deliberate firing of national guard troops. From Tiananmen Square, according to Amnesty International, they have accounted for, "155 dead and 65 wounded", which is a far cry from the thousands you cite (although still an order of magnitude greater than Kent).

I don't think it's inappropriate to compare these incidents. On one hand, the victims of Kent State eventually did receive some small reparation while the Chinese government has yet to make amends to it's victims. However, both incidents were caused by social upheaval clashing with conservative policies.

So everyone should be a rational economizer, busy calculating their individual costs and benefits, and acting accordingly. Right?

Wrong. Human economic motivation is driven by two principal impulses: selfishness and compassion. Still, there is considerable variation across societies.

First consider Western society. Capitalism and free markets are essentially driven by selfishness. Each consumer and producer wants to maximize her own gain, regardless of the outcome to other consumers and producers. Adam Smith claims that selfishness is the only driving force. Is he right? Of course, not. Western consumers frequently prefer to buy environmentally friendly products that are neither the cheapest nor the highest quality. When organizations like the Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition advertise that certain companies receive a failing grade on how they recycle used computers, those failing companies suffer a drop in sales. Furthermore, Western consumers frequently donate money and time to organizations like Amnesty International (AI) yet receive no product or service in return. So, clearly, compassion is a strong component of economic motivation.

However, the degree of selfishness and compassion varies across societies. Consider Taiwanese society. When Westerners like the Americans withheld investments from China after the brutal incident at Tienanmen Square in 1989 in order to force Beijing to change, the Taiwanese immediately seized this window of opportunity and poured money and technology into China, completely thwarting any American economic sanctions. (reference: "Reality of Taiwan") Note also that all the Taiwanese companies mentioned in the environmental study done by the Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition received failing grades. Why? Most Chinese in China (which includes Taiwan province and Hong Kong) simply do not care about the environment. They prefer to buy the cheapest product even if it damages the environment. Since the main customers of the Taiwanese companies do not care about the environment, those companies will do nothing to protect the environment. As for human-rights organizations like AI, most Chinese reject its principles. The Chinese are overrepresented in the business and engneering colleges of American universities but are underrepresented in meetings of AI. (You can verify this fact by just attending an AI meeting.) So, clearly, compassion is almost non-existent as a component of economic motivation in Chinese society.

Other societies fall somewhere between the two extremes of Western society and Chinese (or Taiwanese) society.

... from the desk of the reporter

Not that I agree with you about the U.S. State Department, but would Amnesty International be any better? And trust me, the people in "the infamous camp X-ray" aren't there for violating copyrights.

I'm not so sure I like the idea of the Chinese going haywire blocking spam sites, even if spammers are evil, and even if our mail servers have most netblocks registered in China blocked to start out with. As several other posters hint at, free and unfettered access to information is a good thing, and something that can only help Chinese (and every other society)--if the government is encouraged to start blocking sites, I can see the potential for abuse. Not like they do that sort of thing already.

What I wonder, though, is whether the spam site operators will fall into the category of repressed individuals, and start using some variant of a distributed proxy (just the other way around) to get around this sort of restriction?

In any case, I think the Chinese government should be encouraged to use more traditional means to deal with spammers and their ilk--after all, let's face it, it's what we've all been dreaming of doing to Sanford Wallace and the rest of the DMA.

"Now you too can choose from the best quality peoples' labor camps, right on the internet!" Bang.

Dude, I'm a conservative liberal gun-toting hippie who thinks that systematic crimes against humanity are a Bad Thing. Where did you get these strange ideas about Amnesty International? Amnesty International supports your views re segregation. Amnesty International certainly does not support the status quo if that status quo involves the systematic and egregious brutalization of people.

You seem to know absolutely nothing about the organization. Maybe you think it's criticized certain sacred cows who inhabit your pasture, but you're probably wrong about that. I think you must have AI confused with some other organization. But if you check out the organization, you'll find that it is against all manner of barbaric practices, not just the ones you happen to think are okay. You really have to stop getting all your news from Fox.

If you can't bring yourself to do anything else, at least read their front page. On it you'll find criticism of many governments.

Look at the page! They complain about Israel, Russia, Congo, Liberia, Serbia, Brazil, Vietnam, and many others. They even criticize Canada, for heaven's sake. And it has absolutely nothing to do with some nefarious plan to "segregrate the world by sex and religion." Where the hell did that come from? Check out the site. They want Mexico to do something about all the women who've been murdered in Juarez in late years. They're concerned about 100 pro-democracy organizers in Myanmar who've disappeared recently, many of them into unmarked graves, no doubt. They want the prisons in Afghanistan to be rebuilt-- the prisons are in such bad shape that violent prisoners can't be kept in custody, which is contributing to the current Afghan lawlessness. Some of those bandits are perfectly willing to kill U.S. soldiers. You're really against this? Really? You and all the Young Republicans who've weighed in on this issue are speaking from embarassing ignorance.

Unless you find the torture and murder of political prisoners to be acceptable, then you ought to get behind Amnesty International, at least to the extent of not spouting nonsense about them in a public forum.

You know, what I really think this all reflects is the appalling inflexibility of both the liberal and conservative mind. Conservatives dislike AI because it attracts so many liberals. And some liberals dislike AI because it takes a principled stand against brutal reprisals, even against folks liberals think deserve brutalization, such as certain deposed fascist dictators and their storm troopers.

You would think, if there were any rationality in the world, that all decent people could agree that torture was generally a Bad Thing, and making an effort to stop it a Good Thing.

But apparently not.

If you must fall into the role of jingoist and ideologue by demonizing publications of vaguely defined enemies, at least try to be a little more accurate... "women aren't allowed to drive"--indeed! But only in the US supported regime.

And in other news, bacteria still run the planet.

Hmph. At the risk of sounding like a leftie:

All very Orwellian and Big Brother, the whole experiment was brought to an end by the CIA sponsored coup d'etat on the September 11th, 1973.

Why is this "Orwellian and Big Brother[ish]"? You seem to forget that the "CIA sponsored coup" was actually a pretty bloody affair itself... More than 3000 people "disappeared" (tortured and fed to the fishes), some because they were just suspected of left-of-center sypathies.

But don't take my word for it, read the following:
Amnesty International 1, Amnesty International 2, Amnesty International 3, Human Rights Watch, and even this week's Economist, etc... I could go on, but you get my drift.

Hmph. At the risk of sounding like a leftie:

All very Orwellian and Big Brother, the whole experiment was brought to an end by the CIA sponsored coup d'etat on the September 11th, 1973.

Why is this "Orwellian and Big Brother[ish]"? You seem to forget that the "CIA sponsored coup" was actually a pretty bloody affair itself... More than 3000 people "disappeared" (tortured and fed to the fishes), some because they were just suspected of left-of-center sypathies.

But don't take my word for it, read the following:
Amnesty International 1, Amnesty International 2, Amnesty International 3, Human Rights Watch, and even this week's Economist, etc... I could go on, but you get my drift.

Hmph. At the risk of sounding like a leftie:

All very Orwellian and Big Brother, the whole experiment was brought to an end by the CIA sponsored coup d'etat on the September 11th, 1973.

Why is this "Orwellian and Big Brother[ish]"? You seem to forget that the "CIA sponsored coup" was actually a pretty bloody affair itself... More than 3000 people "disappeared" (tortured and fed to the fishes), some because they were just suspected of left-of-center sypathies.

But don't take my word for it, read the following:
Amnesty International 1, Amnesty International 2, Amnesty International 3, Human Rights Watch, and even this week's Economist, etc... I could go on, but you get my drift.

However, there is something that very few people know. Namely, the Taiwanese constitution, the highest law of the land in Taiwan, supports the geopolitical objectives of mainland China. Specifically, the constitution states that Tibet is part of China. The Taiwanese education system teaches children that Tibet is part of China.

While the Chinese army regularly beats, tortures, and kills Tibetan nuns, the Taiwanese insist that Tibet should be integrated into China. Meanwhile, the Taiwanese demand that the United States of America (USA) sells weapons to them. This hypocrisy is disgusting.

Furthermore, after the Tiananmen Square incident in 1989, the USA and other Western countries immediately curtailed or froze investments into mainland China. The intent of these economic sanctions were thwarted by Taiwanese duplicity. How? The Taiwanese seized this window of opportunity and provided any money or technology that the Americans refused to provide. Starting from 1989, the Taiwanese circumvented the sanctions and poured investments into China. Taiwanese investments in China have grown at double digit rates and have reached the level of $50 billion in more than 50,000 businesses in mainland China.

Please read "Understanding Taiwan: Security Threat to the USA".

The USA must immediately terminate the Taiwan Relations Act (TRA) and stop selling weapons to Taiwan. The time has come to end the relationship of hypocrisy with Taiwan.

... from the desk of the reporter

Personally a lot of the Chinese I know think of the Taiwanese as people who can't speak proper Mandarin...They also believe that Taiwan should be part of China again.

85% of the Taiwanese consider themselves "Chinese" and also support the idea that Taiwan is part of China. They also support the idea that Tibet is part of China.

Remember Tibet? That place is where the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) have tortured and killed Tibetan nuns and priests. Please visit the websites for Amnesty International and Tibet Online.

While the Chinese PLA is committing gross violations of human rights in Tibet, the Taiwanese support a Taiwanese constitution that insists on integrating Tibet into China. Furthermore, the Taiwanese education system teaches Taiwanese children that Tibet is part of China.

In the United States of America (USA), the majority of spies who steal American technology to give to Beijing were born or grew up in Taiwan. Another unusual aspect of these spies is that the majority help Beijing for no financial gain whatsoever. They help Beijing simply because they consider themselves Chinese and because, according to the spies, China is the motherland.

Please read "Understanding Taiwan: Security Threat to the USA".

The time has come to end the hypocrisy and the nonsense from Taiwan. Americans should cancel the Taiwan Relations Act (TRA) and should stop selling weapons to Taiwan.

... from the desk of the reporter

So all they had to say against Taiwan was that they have the death penalty? (and they seem to be in the process of abolishing it.) So what do you think of USA?

... and do not forget to compare to USA (And as long as people are killed and tortured software piracy is a minor issue to me)

The Amnesty International report for Taiwan. And for China Software piracy, is, by comparison, piddling. (And in any case, the PRC is hardly a paragon of virtue.)

The Amnesty International report for Taiwan. And for China Software piracy, is, by comparison, piddling. (And in any case, the PRC is hardly a paragon of virtue.)

You know the US is also know to abuse human rights quite a lot!

By contrast, UNIX failed to gain significant marketshare against the onslaught of Windows because there were simply too many incompatible operating systems called UNIX.

If this Japan-China-Korea operating system (JCKOS) gains any significant share in Asia, then we will have 2 incompatiable operating systems: JCKOS and Linux. JCKOS will be similar to Linux but incompatible with it.

What could be the motivation for this stupidity? Japanese society, as a whole, is a Western society, and Japan has slowly been moving from a 2nd-rate Western nation to a 1st-rate Western nation like the United States of America (USA). Unfortunately, due to Japan's proximity to Asian countries like the brutal totalitarian regime called China, there has always been a tension between (1) Japanese bureaucrats who lean towards Asia and (2) Japanese bureucrats who lean towards the USA and the rest of the West. The Western Japanese have usually prevailed over the Asian Japanese. A key example is the USA-Japan defense treaty.

Unfortunately, occasionally, the Asian Japanese prevail in certain matters. We, Slashdotters, should send an e-mail to the Japanese embassy in our Western nations and tell them that this idea for an independent JCKOS is hurtful and harmful to the open-source movement. Also, do the Japanese really want to work with a brutal totalitarian regime like the Chinese, who have routinely beat and kill Tibetan nuns? (reference: Amnesty International and Tibet Online).

... from the desk of the reporter

I didn't forget; I don't live in the US. Since the US has the death penalty and an armed police force, I don't think they're a good baseline when it comes to human rights.

Perhaps you meant the report for the UK - where I live - which does't have the death penalty nor torture and has less than half a dozen suspicious deaths in custody in the past decade, and where most of the human rights violations revolve around the imprisonment of freedom fighters rather than physical abuse of citizens.

You forgot the link to the Amnesty International report on the US for comparison. Yes the Chinese judicial system CAN BE brutal. It does not mean we should let Chinese ISPs get away with hosting spammers because we don't agree with what their Government does to political opponents.

Given the Chinese record on human rights, your concience might be better served by NOT reporting it to any Chinese government body whatsoever.

I wouldn't sleep at night knowing that my spam complaint had lead to a dozen people being rounded up, tortured and shot, but I can assure you that this wouldn't trouble the Chinese Ministry of Commerce one jot.

Spammers deserve prevention and punishment, but nobody deserves what the Chinese judicial system dishes out.

Amnesty International 2003 report on China

To suggest that such organizations should actual spend more time trying to figure out what is right, or what is the best course of action for all will just bring a harangue about one's naivity.

More people need to know that this is how politics work. Most are taught that voting is doing their part in politics, but that isn't even half of it. People need to "associate" with others of like mind or like profession to help exert influence. This is the ideal behind which political parties were created.

I actually wish more people would become members of an association if only to vote for who the Board Members of their PAC should be. This is the real way to effect laws in the US as it is the Board Members who have oversite of the PAC's lobbyist(s). I wish more geeks (no offense, to me it's a compliment) would think of that next time they're at Frys buying yet another $30 hub or wireless mouse. It's not money itself that is the key, it's where the money goes. If you're sick of stuff like this bullroading and want to change it, you know how to do it.

I'll step off the soapbox now...

• Estes Social Progress Report
  
• Health Care Indexes
  
• UN Human Development Index
  
• HHS Global Health Report
  
• Amnesty International Report on US
  

1. NextVision N6 by Viewsonic
2. Sony SXGA LCD monitor
3. Sony stereo system
4. video/audio cables

While you enjoy your time shopping for this equipment, please remember that when you buy products made in a particular country, you indirectly support the value system of that country. So, please avoid products that are made in China (which includes Taiwan and Hong Kong). At Amnesty International and Tibet Online, you can find plenty of reasons to avoid products "Made in China" (which includes "Made in Taiwan" and "Made in Hong Kong").

"you cheer on a country with such a horrid human rights record simply because its software ideals appear to align with your own."

Yeah, why not?

You're a fucking moron.

Our government makes some colossal blunders - every government does. But to compare the United States (the largest foreign aid contributor in the world) to a country like China is ridiculous.

Did you compare AI's report on the U.S. to their report on China? Don't bother answering, because I know you didn't.

The highlights of the U.S. report consists of the detention of 600 foreign nationals arrested in military combat (boo fucking hoo) and the fact that we still exercise the death penalty. The China report details the systematic detention of TENS OF THOUSANDS of Chinese citizens for expressing dissenting opinions. "Torture and ill-treatment remained widespread and appeared to increase".

If you were a Chinese citizen and had posted the same comment, you could very possibly wind up in prison.

Get a fucking grip. No, better, move to China.

... glass houses, stones, etc...

Let's just say that your local media is more likely to tell you that another country is Bad(tm) then tell you about the stuff your own country is up to.

I'm not condoning any form of human rights abuse, I'd really like to live in a nice, happy, peaceful world, but let's face it; the west is not exactly utopia either. I saw a post around here the other day from a chinese /.r who pointed out that whilst China's gov is slowly getting better, ours is quite quickly getting worse.

I'd rather buy Chinese than American... they're less of a threat to world peace.

BTW, you should see the things Amnesty has to say about U.S. foreign policy.

At Target, you will probably find 3 or 4 brands of rechargeable batteries. Since all the brands are about the same in performance, you should select the brand based on country of origin. Remember. When you buy a product, you indirectly support the value system in the country of origin. In other words, avoid "Made in China". You can find enough reasons for avoiding "Made in China" at Amnesty International or Tibet Online . "Made in China" also includes "Made in Taiwan" or "Made in Hong Kong".

"Made in USA", "Made in Japan", or similar Western-country label is usually a safe bet in terms of (1) the quality of the product and (2) the value system in the country of origin. As an example, consider the Energize Rechargeable Batteries.

Now that's what I call spin!. Bravo!.

Djindjic was receiving major financial backing from the US. He also handed over Milosovic to the US against the will of the people of his country. Furthermore, he was allowing major Serbian companies to be bought and taken over by foreign, particularly american, companies. Dissolving of Yugoslavia was again done against the will of the people. Kostunica was head of Yugoslavia and he was against US policy. So dissolving of the nation into its two autonomous regions stripped whatever control Kostunica had.
Djindjic was assassinated, but I doubt that had anything to do with the US. That was because of his ties to organized crime.

Bill Clinton did not "help turkey" ... Finally I would not take the word of a socialist party web site as the absolute word on any issue let alone this one.

So dramatically increasing arm sales to Turkey as the oppression of the Kurds was reaching its zenith is not considered "help"?
Here are some non-socialist links.

Mostly to fight drugs. Again I disagree with the policy but he inherited that one too.

The US has been giving the Colombian government millions in support, Clinton just increased it to billions. And no astute person takes the war on drugs seriously. Since US involvement with Colombia, drug shipments from Colombia to the US have increased year after year. The Colombian government officials, and especially their associated para-militaries, have openly admitted their drug trafficking. The real policy in Colombia is supporting facist drug-runners against marxist drug-runners (and letting the peasants in the middle get crushed).
Ironically, this support may now stop completely under the Bush Jr. administration because Colombia has not granted total immunity to all Americans from prosecution in the ICC.

Please don't mention East Timor without also mentioning Kissinger, perhaps the most evil war criminal of all time.

The Clinton administration increased weapons sales to Indonesia as the oppression and murder of the East Timorese peaked. The US also tried to prevent the UN from doing anything to stop the murders being carried out by its client state.
Kissinger.

The sanctions ... . he did ease them up a bit.

Do you have a source to verify that?
You may not like socialist sources, but that's better than having no source at all.

Why waste political clout when you know you are going to lose?

To try to save peoples lives.

Now that's what I call spin!. Bravo!.

Djindjic was receiving major financial backing from the US. He also handed over Milosovic to the US against the will of the people of his country. Furthermore, he was allowing major Serbian companies to be bought and taken over by foreign, particularly american, companies. Dissolving of Yugoslavia was again done against the will of the people. Kostunica was head of Yugoslavia and he was against US policy. So dissolving of the nation into its two autonomous regions stripped whatever control Kostunica had.
Djindjic was assassinated, but I doubt that had anything to do with the US. That was because of his ties to organized crime.

Bill Clinton did not "help turkey" ... Finally I would not take the word of a socialist party web site as the absolute word on any issue let alone this one.

So dramatically increasing arm sales to Turkey as the oppression of the Kurds was reaching its zenith is not considered "help"?
Here are some non-socialist links.

Mostly to fight drugs. Again I disagree with the policy but he inherited that one too.

The US has been giving the Colombian government millions in support, Clinton just increased it to billions. And no astute person takes the war on drugs seriously. Since US involvement with Colombia, drug shipments from Colombia to the US have increased year after year. The Colombian government officials, and especially their associated para-militaries, have openly admitted their drug trafficking. The real policy in Colombia is supporting facist drug-runners against marxist drug-runners (and letting the peasants in the middle get crushed).
Ironically, this support may now stop completely under the Bush Jr. administration because Colombia has not granted total immunity to all Americans from prosecution in the ICC.

Please don't mention East Timor without also mentioning Kissinger, perhaps the most evil war criminal of all time.

The Clinton administration increased weapons sales to Indonesia as the oppression and murder of the East Timorese peaked. The US also tried to prevent the UN from doing anything to stop the murders being carried out by its client state.
Kissinger.

The sanctions ... . he did ease them up a bit.

Do you have a source to verify that?
You may not like socialist sources, but that's better than having no source at all.

Why waste political clout when you know you are going to lose?

To try to save peoples lives.

But I have been to Egypt, and my parents have been there twice. It is a fantastic country, allthough you'll see bottomless poverty like I have seen in no other place. Egyptians, like most arabs, are very friendly and respectful people, very proud of their history and their country, with good reason I might add.

And indeed, islamist extremism is a serious threat to not only most Egyptians, but the entire region , and possibly the whole earth. But it is a problem because people do not have basic human rights. It is the obvious poverty problem. Unemployed people have too much time on their hands, and they are easy prey for extremists.

But they do not have the right to free expression, to peacefully protest, the suppression of the people is what is causing the problem.

In that situation, it is my sincere belief that the problems must be addressed by openness, by allowing people to speak, and by allowing them to participate in society. It is the only way to confront extremism, to insist on more human rights. When exposed to different viewpoints, extremism will be moderated.

It is troubling that if you go into the bazars, you'll hear everybody is a vocal opponent of US foreign policy. So, they have the freedom to say it as long as it is not heard, as long as it is uninfluencial. That is good and all, in many places they cannot do that, but they have very little freedom to say it out loud and clear, the torture chamber awaits you. This is the disturbing fact you never hear about. Everybody is so scared to islamist extremism, nobody thinks about their basic rights.

But, to combat extremists, the only thing you can do is to emphasize, they have rights too.

Mubarak certainly has many qualities as leader, but it is very important not to turn the blind eye to some severe shortcomings.

What this has to do with the Matrix is left as an exercise to the reader... :-)

Yeah right!. Or try this one!

>You fuck with America and you sign your death warrant.

I think this is the kind of attitude I'm talking about.

>apologise to the murderers

Of course not, but you seem to have a hard time working out who the murderers actually are. You must be one of the 50% or so of Americans who think Saddam had something to do with 9/11 right?

THE DUMBEST CRIMINAL ON THE PLANET - Kindly Contributor in Philippines GETS $3 from a Lad

You know, as much as this might get a chuckle out of just about anyone (hell, myself included), I have to say this:

The last thing I would ever do is turn somebody in to the FSCKING GHANA POLICE!

Hell, email scams piss me off just as much as anybody, but that's a fate that I wouldn't wish on just about anyone (except for maybe the Ghana police themselves).

Dominion

Here are some links referring to extra-territorial jurisdiction (or universal jurisdiction - the idea that some crimes are so terrible that every court has jurisdiction for the crime):

• Amnesty International statement on universal jurisdiction
• a UN resolution "Adopting the resolution by a recorded vote of 133 in favour to two against (Israel, United States) and two abstentions (Australia, Latvia), the Assembly reiterated its call for the repeal of unilateral extraterritorial laws that imposed coercive measures contrary to international law on corporations and nationals of other States."
• (html from google) Princeton PDF hosts an article titled "Multinational Pharmaceutical Corporations and U.S. Extraterritorial Jurisdiction". It has a nice description about some exceptions to absolute sovereignty, some of which are widely recognized, and some not.

The yesterday's Wall Street Journal had a front page article about this. There is no denying, he went to China (after paying off his mortgage and transfering the house ownership to his Christian wife) in October 2001, while telling friends he was going to Palestine (his family lives there). He said, he went there to search for business opportunities, but made no phone calls to China prior to going there -- FBI has his phone records. His friends he say he was becoming increasingly Muslim in recent years, but rejected violence. His lawyer (yes, unlike the really "disappeared" people, he has a lawyer) explains his sudden mortgage payoff by Islam's prohibition to borrow money at interest. May be. But there are plenty of other unanswered questions.

While the government's behaviour does seem heavy-handed to me, I see no reason to doubt their sincerety (as over-rated as this virtue might be -- the sincerety). He will not be the first innocent person in history to be held -- that's just the unfortunate drawback of the best legal systems currently known. But the evidence against him -- as presented so far to the public -- is not the weakest in the history of such legal systems either.

If you want to fight human rights violations -- consult Amnesty International. They spend time and money researching and fighting some real abuses. Just pick any one instead of charging nearby windmills...

They sold monitoring and censorship technology to the Chinese government, and weren't punished for it by the marketplace. So the chickens now come home to roost.

Really.

"Today is the deadline for males from the second round of Arab and Muslim countries and North Korea to register with the United States immigration authorities under new security rules. Amnesty International is calling on the US authorities to ensure respect for the human rights of non citizens and to review the special registration process to ensure that it is administered fairly and complies with the principle of non-discrimination under international law."

The phrase "Saddam gassed his own people" are getting tiresome. Saddam gassed the seperatist kurds in northern Iraq.

I suppose that makes it OK?

I suspect it is repeated over and over again to somehow draw attention away from the fact that NATO member Turkey are responsible for several massacres in the same area. At least they're not killing "their own people", right?

Those of us who give money and time to Amnesty Int'l have never, in any way, condoned this. The US State Dept has also pulled no punches in its human rights report on Turkey. But Turkey, at least, has something approaching a functioning democracy. Pressure in the form of govt reports, journalism stories, and conditions on entry into the EU may slowly move Turkey into a much better respect for human rights. Nothing like that was ever going to be possible with Iraq.

That's provably false.

Then, if the U.S. cares so much about human rights is it not attacking Saudi Arabia? Terrible human rights abuses go on every day, yet the U.S. is not only condoning it, it actively funds Saudi Arabia heavily, and uses it as an ally regularly.

Same goes for Pakistan, used as an ally in the Afghanistan conflict.

Where were they in Rwanda? Why didnt they go straight in?

Somalia has a huge hotbed of US hatred. It was basically an attack to put down the anti US sentiment. (Not sure how effective it was going to be to be honest)

In Serbia, democracy only came about due to UN involvement. Not the U.S. bombing, whatever you may think.

In Columbia, the U.S. funds terrorist groups to go around bullying and attacking farmers.

If you seriously believe that the U.S. has a good record when it comes to human rights and supporting human rights worldwide, I suggest you read this. (and that was published before the Iraqi invasion)

If you want to know what the U.S.'s moves are all really about, I would suggest you read a little bit more on this site.

Democracy isn't overnight.

Is that what you're still saying about Somalia?

We can better understand the American mentality by looking at the Middle East. Americans are totally silent when Israel have serious human rights issues in Palestine, or when USA themselves bomb the shit out of Iraq, killing many civilians. Oh wait, they are not only silent, they actually support the atrocities! You have the nerve to call Beijing a supplier of weapons, when USA is the largest weapon supplier in the world of all! I'm not condoning what the communists do, but to accuse Chinese in this way is pure stupidity on your part.

We can better understand the American mentality by looking at the Middle East. Americans are totally silent when Israel have serious human rights issues in Palestine, or when USA themselves bomb the shit out of Iraq, killing many civilians. Oh wait, they are not only silent, they actually support the atrocities! You have the nerve to call Beijing a supplier of weapons, when USA is the largest weapon supplier in the world of all! I'm not condoning what the communists do, but to accuse Chinese in this way is pure stupidity on your part.

If you want an international perspective try the main page Big Brother Awards homepage. They have links to a couple more countries. This is an interesting award, but I am sure it doesn't really compare to the the much less public tactics that you would find here. The big brother awards thing is a little skewed towards the west. The lack of places such as North Korea and Turkmenistan may just attest to the efficiency of such countries' big brother tactics. Hard to compete with such things like the old East German Stassi room filled with jars of scents of know dissedents for use by tracking dogs. I think these awards are quaint compared to somebody beating you unconscious in a third-world basement.

when un's "authority and jurisdiction" are convenient they are quoted. when they are inconveneint, they are ignored

It is the UN's authority and jurisdiction gave us this responsibility (not right) to act against Iraq this week. There are 17 unanimously passed UNSEC resolutions passed under the 7th chapter of the UN charter, which requires enforcement of the resolution in the case of non-compliance. Even France voted for this 17 times. The only people who are ignoring the UN are those who refuse to enforce the 17 resolutions that require the UN to act.

you do not know that iraq has these so-called weapons of mass destruction

Come on! Listen to yourself and this ridiculous stance you are taking. There is no dispute that Iraq had WMD -- it is a plain and simple fact. The UN resolutions required Iraq to destroy these weapons in the presence of UN Observers. Saddam waffled on this for 8 years and eventually kicked the UN inspectors out of the country and for the past 4 years (until last December) he had absolutely no supervision on his weapons program. You are insanely arguing that he secretly disposed of these weapons on his own even though he knew he had to provide proof that they were destroyed, and has been hiding the evidence even though he knew he would be attacked because of it. Give me a break!

In reality, he is harassing the UN inspectors, and has even killed his Missile chief because he didn't want the UN to pry any secret information from him. Does this sound like the actions of an innocent man who has already done everything we asked him to do?

they are not concerned about the "people of iraq" (except when convenient for public relations). you will notice that the "people of iraq" were never mentioned until two weeks ago

President Bush talked about the people of Iraq in his first state of the Union address 14 months ago. Amnesty International has been talking about the people of Iraq for years, as had the Human Rights Watch. If you have not heard people talking about the people of Iraq, it's because you haven't been listening.

the united states is only concerned about one thing: securing iraqi oil for american capitalism.

Ah. We get to the root of your argument. You are not anti-war, you are anti-capitalist. In fact, the entire anti-war movement appears to be motivated by political idealology rather than any kind of respect for peace or humanity. Otherwise we would have seen protests in the street when Clinton was bombing passenger trains in Kosovo and lobbing cruise missiles towards Iraq and Afghanistan. The deafening silence from the left when Clinton was in office doing the very same thing speaks volumes for your motivations today. You don't care one bit about Iraqi civilians or peace, you just don't like President Bush and see this as an opportunity to undermine his presidency.

I'm sure you have heard the oil rebuttals many times, but I'll give it another shot. Opening up the worlds 2nd largest oil reserves will only do one thing: cause oil prices to plummet. The US oil companies don't get the Iraqi oil because it has already been earmarked by the UN for the rebuilding of Iraq. The only thing the US oil companies get is a 30% reduction in revenue when oil prices drop.

Besides, if the US wanted to seize the worlds oil supply, why haven't we done anything in Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, or Kuwait (I mean, we already have troops there, and they don't have any mustard gas or VX waiting for us)? Or why didn't we do it in Iraq 12 years ago?

Ok, that's the introduction, here we go:

First, let me state that the alternative to war is not to do nothing. It is to do things more constructively, build rather than destroy.

Let me also state that I'm not in the "it's the oil" crowd. I think Bush honestly believes that he is on a God-given mission as the World Leader to save the world. But I didn't elect this moron, and neither did you. Unelected leaders are dangerous, regardless of who didn't elect them... :-) Especially when they're fanatically religious...

First, a bit of history: US officials visited Saddam in 1984, to restablish diplomatic ties, as Saddam was in a war with Iran, this was a great opportunity, and these officials saw no reason why they shouldn't establish diplomatic relations. Well, of course they knew that Saddam had been a despot since he seized power in 1979, and they knew full well that he had used chemical weapons against his own population as well as in the war against Iran.

But, what the heck, this war against Iran, that had to be supported, regardless of some puny WMDs. The delegation leader's name was Donald Rumsfeld. Yep, these guys are old pals. Cool, eh?

Where were you when Amnesty reported that Saddam Hussein tortured and murdered unknown tens of thousands of Iraqis when your current defence-head shook hands with him?

The problem with Saddam had been much easier to solve if the US had put some pressure on Saddam in 1984, rather than supporting the dictator. The US gave him the position he now has. And guess what, dictators sometimes have their own agenda. Who would have thought?

OK, so you can argue that old mistakes are no reason to stand down now.

True. But you have to realize that you have to do things differently than you did before.

Well, what happened in Kosovo, that's an example of the success of intervention? Well, I don't know about the murder rates right now, but the number of killings before and after the bombings were pretty much the same. No real improvement. Strengthen democracy? They can't even elect a president now, because everybody thinks that the whole thing stinks and nobody shows up at the elections. Yep, we'll just bomb some more in 50 years when tensions rise again. Slobo was thrown out? Sure, but at the 11th attempt. With Slobo in power, Yugoslavs tried to throw him from power over and over again. The silence from the rest of the world was overwhelming. Nobody cared, nobody listened. Half a million of the elite who were at the forefront in trying to overthrow him left the country in dispair. If they had been given just a little support, the whole catastrophy may have been avoided. As it is now, it is just a matter when the region explodes again.

If Saddam had actually had WMDs that were a threat, then urgent action may have been needed. But the evidence put forward by US administration sucks badly. It consistently falls apart on examination. Besides, it is backed by blatant lies and misinformation, that has no other purpose than scaring people. Such as "given enough high-grade uranium, Saddam can makes nukes within six months". Well, yeah, I'm a physicist, and I can do that too, but I wouldn't need six months!

At the same time, the same mistakes are committed over and over again. There are some of republics of central asia that are not democratic at all. In fact, they are highly oppressive. Even, it may be getting worse while we're watching. But, because they're now "allies", we're looking the other way, instead of supporting those working for democracy. It's the same story over again. It is the same reason why the US supported Iraq and Saddam, why they now support the oppressive regimes in particulary Uzbekistan and Kirgistan. They're only making it worse. Are you looking the other way now, because you president says that you should? Then please don't come shouting for bombs in 20 years from now!

It is time to think things over, and take a different path.

There is a huge, well-educated middle class in Iraq, and they are the key to overthrowing Saddam. Making sure that these people can start thinking about politics again rather than worrying about getting food on the table or a US bomb down their chimney is probably the best thing you can do to forward democracy in Iraq. They allready have to worry about Saddam's agents, so removing a couple of worries can only be a good thing. The problem is, Saddam knows it, and his power is now so well established, supporting those is going to be really, really difficult.

There's another path. Iran has made huge progress lately, pretty much in spite of US efforts. Most of the Iranian population is really young, and they don't want to take any more bullshit from the old moronic fundamentalists.

There is also a bunch of forward-thinking academics, who is not afraid to challenge the theocracy, and many internationally minded scientists.

Not long ago, Iran joined CERN. Yep, that's the european nuclear research organization. Those who are thinking "nuclear, iran, scary!" are missing the point, and need to RSFH (read some f* history).

Empowering these people in Iran is very likely going to light that candle of democracy in the region that Bush is talking about. Without bombs, without a war. Without USians becoming subject of hate all over the world. Without sacrificing human rights, like pretty much every US intervention has done in the past. It is going to bring about change made the people themselves, it is going to empower people in the entire region, possibly in the entire world to bring about change. It is what can make tyrants tremble.

You know, there are success stories when it comes to peaceful transitions, take Guatemala for example, Bolivia had also an extremely corrupt and violent government but popular uprising did the trick there. To some extent, the wide attention that South Africa got helped the transition there. Military action is not, and has never been the only way. But looking the other way, has never helped.

You're going to spend something like $50 billion on war, very likely. Imagine what you can do with those money, if you instead make an investment in empowering the people who wants to see change?