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2003 Big Brother Awards

MacRonin writes "Privacy International today announced the winners of the 2003 Big Brother Awards. One of the judges, estimable Dr Ian Brown of the Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR), writes: "It was alternatively amusing and depressing to be one of the judges for these awards. RIP and data retention played a large part in our deliberations..." ... Read more at The Register (UK) - 2003 Big Brother Awards: The Winners. and Political News from Wired News - Blair Tagged as Privacy Threat."

189 comments

  1. Contrary to popular belief... by Gortbusters.org · · Score: 3, Informative

    The most invasive company was Capita, a data management business that develops the software used in many of the government's data-mining schemes.

    Try again next year MS!

    --
    --------
    Free your mind.
    1. Re:Contrary to popular belief... by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      That awards looked like are for UK only "big brothers", else they will choose over Blair the big-big-big brother that is lives across the ocean.

    2. Re:Contrary to popular belief... by EinarH · · Score: 1
      The judges of the 5th annual UK Big Brother Awards have today (Tuesday 25th March) announced this year's shameless winners.

      AFAIK, MS is a US-based company...

      But maybe they could have won because of their global market share?
      Or a "MOST INVASIVE FOREGIN-BASED COMPANY" -award?

      --

      Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

    3. Re:Contrary to popular belief... by g_attrill · · Score: 2, Funny

      http://www.capita.co.uk/

      (logo with strapline "Your Professional Support Services Resource")

      "This website is currently undergoing essential maintenance.

      Please call back later."

    4. Re:Contrary to popular belief... by Xilman · · Score: 1
      Try again next year MS!

      Roger Needham, the posthumous winner of a Winston award, was the head of MS Research in Cambridge. He was still actively working for the company until a few days before his death from cancer a month ago.

      Paul

      --
      Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate
  2. Privacy Now More Than Ever by John+Leeming · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Given the upcoming Patriot Act II and current laws, it's good to know that there are those still willing to say the Emperor has no clothes.

    --
    "Eustace? Eustace? Are you there? Are you there?" = John Leeming
    1. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by EZmagz · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The sad thing is that there's fewer and fewer people willing to SAY that the Emperor has no clothes these days. Education is a big factor I'm sure, as John Q. Public doesn't have a clue as to what's going on with all the disgusting new laws and acts *cough* Patriot II *cough* that are being (or about to be) passed right under his nose.

      And honestly, why would he? The average person (at least here in the US) doesn't think about their personal freedom and liberties like the average /.'er does. Honestly, I didn't either until the Patriot Act was passed. Politics bore the hell out of me...but when I realized that the US gov't turned into an Orwell-esque made-for-shitty-t.v. movie, I raised an eyebrow. And I try to educate people when possible about what's going on that ISN'T going to be on the nightly news at 10pm.

      I'd insert the famous "Those who are willing to sacrifice personal liberty in the name..." quote, but it's been beat to death and I'd only be preaching to the quior. Fact is, it's a scary world out there that's getting even scarier. And as long as John Smith's golf game isn't directly affected in the middle of suburbia, ignorance will remain to be bliss.

      --

      "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned for SEGA. ..."

    2. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      I'd like to see that chick in the Verizon commercial without any clothes. I don't know about the upcomming Patriot Act, but I do know that my dick would be up and cumming.

      Do you have any idea how difficult it is to masturbate to a 30-second commercial? You could sit around all night nursing a stiffy, and they try to rub one out real quick when the spot comes on. What I did what fill a VCR tape up with that commercial, and then basically wack to a "loop" of that hot bitch forgetting her phone again and again. I can also edit out that clueless punch and his loser friends that way.

    3. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by voiceofthewhirlwind · · Score: 1

      >The average person (at least here in the US) doesn't think about their personal freedom and liberties like the average /.'er does.

      It's not like Germany ever threatened the liberties of the average racially pure German who kept their mouth shut (the majority of Germans, in other words). </GODWIN VIOLATION>

    4. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Maeryk · · Score: 1

      The sad thing is that there's fewer and fewer people willing to SAY that the Emperor has no clothes these days. Education is a big factor I'm sure, as John Q. Public doesn't have a clue as to what's going on with all the disgusting new laws and acts *cough* Patriot II *cough* that are being (or about to be) passed right under his nose.

      You sound like an informed rabble rouser.. Care to tell me a right you have lost? or one you stand to lose? (Not a flame.. an honest question)

      Maeryk

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
    5. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Maeryk · · Score: 1

      It's not like Germany ever threatened the liberties of the average racially pure German who kept their mouth shut (the majority of Germans, in other words).

      Yep.. and its not like I have lost a right under Ashcroft/Bush. Course, I'm a law abiding citizen..
      so I guess maybe I'm less concerned with rights regarding, say, how I get out of having drugs in my car once I am hauled into jail for it.

      Personally, i think I lost a lot more rights under (during) the Clinton administration than I have under B/A. The assault weapons ban/crime bill, specifically.

      Maeryk

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
    6. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by sconeu · · Score: 1
      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    7. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Mac+Degger · · Score: 0, Troll

      What, you want grenade launchers too? How about a nice cozy Abrahms tank? Or a SCUD launcher? Or why not a nuke? I mean, you have a right to bear arms (although several courts are getting rather fed up by the fact that the ignorant public thinbk that the second amendment grants them the right to bear arms...it doesn't, as the supreme court has had to explain in exasperation many times over: google for it), so why not have a nuke? Or some anthrax? I mean, your government has that, so why shouldn't you?

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
    8. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by teromajusa · · Score: 1

      The right to privacy comes to mind. But since your a law abiding citizen, I guess you don't really need privacy do you?

    9. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by voiceofthewhirlwind · · Score: 1

      Personally, i think I lost a lot more rights under (during) the Clinton administration than I have under B/A. The assault weapons ban/crime bill, specifically.

      Right, your preferred freedom is gun ownership, while many others enjoy being safe against unlawful search and seizure (the 'unlawful' in that amendment isn't that useful, because as we're beginning to see congress can just pass a law to make any search and seizure lawful).

      To a large extent, having all the other rights, especially privacy, reinforces your right to own a gun. If the police can't scan all your emails, tap your phone, or look at purchase histories, they aren't going to find out about your gun and arrest you. And that goes for all the rights not specifically enumerated- the less the government can do to violate your privacy, the less they can pass enforceable laws against things you keep private or reasonably quiet.

      Freedom of speech is even more fundamental- it means you can speak out against laws that restrict other rights and maybe even get the laws change, even if you've already had your privacy invaded and have been arrested (your loss may be others gain, if you speak loudly enough).

    10. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by OneEyedApe · · Score: 2, Insightful
      A few Examples, pulled from http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/john-ashcrof t/

      The right to freely monitor the activities political and religious groups without a criminal pretext.

      New restrictions on open hearings and the public's right to receive information through the Freedom of Information Act.

      The ability to stamp down on the dangerous menace of librarians who tip off the media to federal subpoenas of borrowing records.

      Permission to monitor conversations between lawyers and suspects, on those increasingly rare occasions that suspects are allowed to have lawyers.

      The ability to detain Americans in prison indefinitely without trial or criminal charge.


      And to follow this up:

      Dramatically loosening restrictions on secret government surveillance of citizens, including on phones, e-mail and bank accounts.

      Adding a "deport at will" option allowing the Justice Department to circumvent inconvenient immigration laws.

      Expanding terrorism investigations to allow the Department to revoke the rights of anyone within about six degrees of separation of an actual terrorist act.

      Criminalizing the use of encrypted e-mail.

      Increasing the list of federal death-penalty crimes.

      Allowing the government to desecrate the graves of deceased victims of terrorism without permission from families.

      Restricting access to information about corporate pollution and environmental crimes. This would, incidentally, not only prevent private citizens from researching toxins in their backyards but would even restrict the ability of local governments to get information about environmental crimes in their own neighborhoods.

      --
      Life sucks, but death doesn't put out at all....
      --Thomas J. Kopp
    11. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Care to tell me a right you have lost? or one you stand to lose?

      Well, if you're a member of an unpopular political party (like the Greens), you lose the ability to use the airport. Good luck getting elected.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    12. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by gowen · · Score: 1
      Well, if you're a member of an unpopular political party (like the Greens), you lose the ability to use the airport
      You mean if you're a member of an unpopular political party and act like a total twat, you lose the right to use an airport.
      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    13. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by lucifuge31337 · · Score: 1

      Care to tell me a right you have lost? or one you stand to lose?

      Well, if you're a member of an unpopular political party (like the Greens), you lose the ability to use the airport. Good luck getting elected.


      Would you care to explain what in the hell you are talking about?

      --
      Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
    14. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Maeryk · · Score: 1

      Again, tell me a right you have lost. You listed a number of things the Government changed, but you have yet to mention a right you have lost.

      In what way have these laws restricted your ability to do what you did before they were enacted?

      Now.. as far as this one:

      Restricting access to information about corporate pollution and environmental crimes. This would, incidentally, not only prevent private citizens from researching toxins in their backyards but would even restrict the ability of local governments to get information about environmental crimes in their own neighborhoods.

      I find that somewhat hard to believe. It is a really nice blurb, phrased to anger the anti-business folks out there, but I would like to know exactly what makes these things so.

      (I suspect it has something to do with some sort of top secret place somewhere in Nevada, that some greeny was screaming about, or something.)

      Maeryk

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
    15. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Maeryk · · Score: 1

      What, you want grenade launchers too? How about a nice cozy Abrahms tank? Or a SCUD launcher? Or why not a nuke? I mean, you have a right to bear arms (although several courts are getting rather fed up by the fact that the ignorant public thinbk that the second amendment grants them the right to bear arms...it doesn't, as the supreme court has had to explain in exasperation many times over: google for it), so why not have a nuke? Or some anthrax? I mean, your government has that, so why shouldn't you?


      Uh.. we were given the right to keep and bear arms so that we could resist tyranny. Whether that comes from an outside invader, or from the the government. Remember.. the framers of the constitution had just witnessed exactly what a dedicated group of people with "military weapons" could do to free a tiny country from a huge military force. (timing was really good too.. )

      I dont want a tank.. but I do want some clarity in the laws.. and I want to know why a handle makes a gun more dangerous.. or why a 40 round fixed magazine is better than a 40 round removeable magazine.

      Im not so concerned with what they "banned".. most of them were cheap import junk anyway.. I'm more concerned with the fact that it pretty much criminalizes millions of gun owners who have broken no laws.

      I think you are confused.

      Maeryk

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
    16. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by TarPitt · · Score: 1
      ...I guess maybe I'm less concerned with rights regarding, say, how I get out of having drugs in my car once I am hauled into jail for it.

      The naive believe that police would never, ever plant drugs on someone just to set them up. Setting up political dissidents on drug charges did in fact occur many times at one point about 30 years ago. Then it was opposition to US government foreign policy. Perhaps now being too vocal about owning deadly weapons and demanding the right to do so.


      This is one reason criminal defense attorneys advise folks to never allow police into your home, even if you are sure you are innocent of any crime. This is a reason innocent people should support the rights of the accused.

      --
      If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
    17. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Maeryk · · Score: 1

      The naive believe that police would never, ever plant drugs on someone just to set them up. Setting up political dissidents on drug charges did in fact occur many times at one point about 30 years ago. Then it was opposition to US government foreign policy. Perhaps now being too vocal about owning deadly weapons and demanding the right to do so.

      Yeah.. but that has been going on for as long as there were police! Nothing has changed in the last three years! And being too vocal about owning weapons? Ruby Ridge and Waco were under Clinton/Reno.

      I support the rights of the accused.. and I havent yet seen conclusive evidence that the accused have lost any rights. I have seen it made easier for law enforcement to GATHER evidence.. but I have yet to see a law that says "we can trump up charges out of nothing."

      I'm sorry.. but I dont view breaking the law as a cat and mouse game. I also think that the numbers of totally innocent people being "set up" is fairly low. (Remember.. they had to get Al Capone on Income Tax issues.. )

      Maeryk

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
    18. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Mac+Degger · · Score: 1

      No, I'm not confused...second result of a quick google search gives a pretty close description of what the american courts think, and have thought, for at least a hundred years:

      http://www.guncite.com/journals/senrpt/senrpt24. ht ml

      Look for the second paragraph. And check out court records.

      And as a side note, the militias were of no consequence; Americans got their independance only due to the fact that the French sent in troops. Many, many sources mention the fact that the armed militias did more harm than good. Read some memiors by the generals of the times.

      As for your last point...well, I can see that that is valid. It just reminds me of the parallels with certain smoking laws in the US.

      I think you're misinformed.

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
    19. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by usotsuki · · Score: 1

      It's ten o'clock.
      Do you know where
      your freedoms are?

      -uso.
      (Freedom? What's that?)

      --
      Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
    20. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by usotsuki · · Score: 1

      We're guaranteeed by the Bill of Rights the right to "KEEP AND BEAR ARMS" - I'd say - if the Bill of Rights is infringed, we should consider the US dissolved! What are arms? I have the right to have my own fscking MISSILE SILO if I so choose. Full of fscking NUCLEAR WARHEADS. Hey, "Keep and Bear Arms" ! And I don't give a fsck about anyone who disagrees with me. :E

      -uso.

      --
      Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
    21. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by usotsuki · · Score: 1

      Snopes is an urban legends site.

      -uso.
      Daily reader of alt.folklore.urban

      --
      Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
    22. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, try reading the information you post.

      Claim: Green Party activist Nancy Oden was denied permission to fly because she represents a political party that opposes the bombing of Afghanistan.
      Status: False.

    23. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Dausha · · Score: 1

      Now, see, you list a lot of things the law states. However, these laws do not deprive a resident of the United States of a right, only a Constitutional amendment repealing a right (similar to the 22d that repealled Prohibition) can deprive one of said right.

      It is practically a matter of course that various rights organizations, to include the ACLU, will find suitable pretext to elevate these laws to the attention of the Supreme Court. Regardless of how one may feel about the Court personally, or politically, it does its best to ensure one's rights are not trodden upon because of overzealous legislatures or the President himself. Checks and balance at work.

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
    24. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by jhylkema · · Score: 1

      Bzzzt! Wrong, troll boy.

      Your claim is an old chestnut, and an easily refutable one at that. Despite what the propaganda you posted claims, the courts have not been unanimous with regard to the Second Amendment. Furthermore, an eminent legal scholar, one who writes law-school textbooks on the Constitution (i.e., has forgotten more than you'll ever know about this issue), begs to differ with you. Further, many state constitutions contain provisions giving individuals the right to keep and bear arms.

      In order to avoid embarrassments like this one in the future, try posting something other than Sarah Brady's talking points.

      Class dismissed.

    25. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err. That was my point.

      Moron

    26. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by gowen · · Score: 1

      Indeed. And in this case, its debunking the one about Green Party activists being singled out for rough treatement... Sheesh

      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    27. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Mac+Degger · · Score: 1

      Wow...ok, so it's not a unanimous decisions by all the courts of the land. Not surprising.
      You also qoute one imminent scholar who disagrees with the interpretation. But reading trhough the peice, it becomes obvious that he is arguing for a reinterpretation.../because in most cases, the courts (in a jurisprudencial and historical manner) have viewed the second ammendment to be interpreted as I stated and linked to/!
      You can attack the source (hey, as I said, I just googled), but you still haven't discredited the content. You've actually made my case for me :) Especially that last sentence of your second paragraph; that's exactly the point! Second ammendment doesn't automatically grant the right to bear arms, but puts it in the state's hands to grant (or not grant) that right.

      And I resent being called troll boy. Especially by someone who presents his case with an opinion peice which contains information which proves himself wrong.

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
    28. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by Dave2+Wickham · · Score: 1

      /me keeps his bare arms...

      Uhh...

    29. Re:Privacy Now More Than Ever by jhylkema · · Score: 1

      A glutton for punishment, are we? Well, here goes.

      Wow...ok, so it's not a unanimous decisions by all the courts of the land. Not surprising.

      Hey, YOU made the claim that it was.

      You also qoute one imminent [sic] scholar who disagrees with the interpretation.

      WTF is an "imminent" scholar? He's not a scholar yet but is about to be one? Sorry, but you have to be literate before you can argue the finer points of constitutional interpretation.

      But reading trhough [sic] the peice [sic], it becomes obvious that he is arguing for a reinterpretation . . .

      No, he is not arguing for a "reinterpretation." He is arguing that the individual rights reading of the Second Amendment is the correct one, even though he would like that not to be the case. RTFA!

      From Prof. Levinson's article:

      I cannot help but suspect that the best explanation for the absence of the Second Amendment from the legal consciousness of the elite bar . . . is derived from . . . the perhaps subconscious fear that altogether plausible, perhaps even "winning," interpretations of the Second Amendment would present real hurdles to those of us supporting prohibitory regulation.

      Be that as it may, please explain to me why the term "people" in the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Tenth Amendment means individuals, yet the word "people" in the Second means the sovereign. If none of this makes any sense to you, may I suggest retaking civics?

      You can attack the source (hey, as I said, I just googled), but you still haven't discredited the content.

      I just discredited the content - the reading of the Amendment, Dr. Levinson's article, AND the fact that your source is nothing but anti-gun propaganda. Be more careful next time.

      WHY do I feed these trolls??

  3. It's a shame.... by Lord_Slepnir · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's a shame that the awards are for the UK only. Then again, it would be boring to see an awards show where every award either went to John Ashcroft or the MPAA / RIAA.

    1. Re:It's a shame.... by TopShelf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh come on, the credit-reporting industry has got to be a major contender here. They have a huge impact on the financial lives of American consumers, but their data is notoriously unreliable (at added cost to consumers) and its use is clouded in obfuscation (i.e. credit score calculation). Add to that the increasingly broad use of that information (like insurance rates), and you've got an odds-on perennial favorite...

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    2. Re:It's a shame.... by bottlerocket · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Here's a quick bio on the esteemed John Ashcroft for those wanting to brush up on their knowledge of one of the 21st century's greatest leaders.

      Don't worry if reading all that detail about his life feels invasive. He's got a dossier on you, too.

      --
      where the comment ends and sig begins
    3. Re:It's a shame.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
      Quoting directly from the linked article:
      The 2003 US BBAs will be held on 3 April 2003 at the Computers, Freedom and Privacy Conference in New York City.

      It's only in the second paragraph. C'mon, surely even Slashdotters can read that far.
    4. Re:It's a shame.... by Angry+White+Guy · · Score: 1

      Slightly O/T, but doesn't he look like the smoking man?

      --
      You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
    5. Re:It's a shame.... by fatcat1111 · · Score: 1

      Hm, I wonder if that's why the article indentifed Experian as a major contender for first place...

      --
      How Politicians Lie: http://www.factcheck.org/
    6. Re:It's a shame.... by TopShelf · · Score: 1

      Exactly - that's why I responded to the parent that focused soley on Ashcroft and RIAA. The credit companies should be up for a group award, in my consideration (especially since I'm looking at a refinance right now)...

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    7. Re:It's a shame.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It is the second paragraph, but calling the article/link "Privacy International" cause me to assume it was a link to "Privacy International" and not an article.

      Personally I did click on that link before reading the comments here, but I could see why someone would think it wasn't an article.

    8. Re:It's a shame.... by Highwayman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you want an international perspective try the main page Big Brother Awards homepage. They have links to a couple more countries. This is an interesting award, but I am sure it doesn't really compare to the the much less public tactics that you would find here. The big brother awards thing is a little skewed towards the west. The lack of places such as North Korea and Turkmenistan may just attest to the efficiency of such countries' big brother tactics. Hard to compete with such things like the old East German Stassi room filled with jars of scents of know dissedents for use by tracking dogs. I think these awards are quaint compared to somebody beating you unconscious in a third-world basement.

    9. Re:It's a shame.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are separate Big Brother awards for the US. The 2003 awards for the US will be announced in April. (Link)

    10. Re:It's a shame.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, they did have this award for the US, but Big Brother got to it before it was published.

      Hold on, some one is knocking at my door......

    11. Re:It's a shame.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe the US BB awards are on April 5th. which is Doubleplusgood.

  4. Amateurs, all amateurs by burgburgburg · · Score: 5, Funny

    A.G. John Ashcroft and crew: "Stop having thought crimes and we won't have to arrest you."

    1. Re:Amateurs, all amateurs by Xrc65kl · · Score: 2, Funny
      >> A.G. John Ashcroft and crew: "Stop having thought crimes and we won't have to arrest you."

      Given Dubya's recent rhetoric on Iraq, shouldn't that be "...we won't be forced to arrest you" ?

  5. Across-the-Pond Comparison by onthefenceman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'd be interested to see a comparison of civil liberties between the UK and the US. Video surveillance of public parks and streets is astoundingly common in England, as are photo-radar traffic cameras. However, based on what I've read I think the US has the upper hand in communications surveillance of net traffic and phone lines.

    --
    Have you seen my stapler?
    1. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, for starters, American children are implanted with ID tags, which broadcast things like name, address, and favorite foods.

      In the name of homeland security, of course.

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
    2. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by oliverthered · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Umm... your at War and the propaganda machine is running at full speed.

      The UK government was proposing that all ISP's retain data for 3 years. etc......

      Maybe you run more wire taps in the US, but in the UK they just keep the data, no wire taps required.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    3. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Maybe you run more wire taps in the US, but in the UK they just keep the data, no wire taps required.

      Actually, and not that I agree with even this, the data to be retained was simply the logs. ie where you are visiting, who you are mailing, who you were phoning and for how long. They would not have been required (or even allowed) to keep the actual data of any transmission (ie what was said).

      Since there are so many ways to avoid being caught in ISPs logs (running your own mail server, using a foreign proxy, ssh, etc, etc) I think it would maybe have been a good idea to let them set these laws before they get a clue. All they will get from the ISPs log of my mail will be all the spam I don't have to bother picking up by running my own mail server.

    4. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought they put unique Isotope rations in McDondonalds food. (even though fat people are easy to spot and follow)

    5. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You'd be amazed how much they can get from phone and credit card records, shopping patterns etc... (buy everything in cash).

      Phone conversations are regually lisened into (It's all digital, not 'wire tap' required), just to check everythings 'ok'

    6. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The black market will always operate outside of the government, no tax, no law etc... It's the reqular people that get caught by the invasion of privacy.

    7. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by benjiboo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Apparently we have more CCTV cameras here in the UK than anywhere else in the world....

      From the CCTV Surveilance regulation campaign: The United Kingdom leads the world in the deployment of Closed Circuit Tele Vision camera technology. However, we seem to have no coherent, legally enforceable rules or regulations which ensure that Public CCTV schemes are run properly. This website aims to open up a debate about the extent to which powerful technologies such as linked CCTV camera systems, neural network facial recognition , car number plate recognition, multimedia image databases etc. are being applied in the UK.

      Why, in the UK, is television reception controlled by licences, backed up by criminal penalties, but no licencing is required to install linked CCTV camera systems?

      Are CCTV surveillance systems vital to keep order on our streets, or are there substantial civil liberties problems to be addressed ? Has the cost effectiveness of Public CCTV surveillance systems been oversold ? Is crime reduced or just displaced next door ?

      --
      Vacancy for signature. Apply within.
    8. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Dephex+Twin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "We're at war" is the justification for what's going on in the US? Yeah, the infringement on our liberties just started last week...

      Besides, I thought the UK was in on this too.

      --

      If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. -- Carl Sagan
    9. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by JW555 · · Score: 1

      seek and ye shall find....

      Privacy and Human Rights 2002

      You'll be wanting part 3, link right at the bottom.

    10. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The UK started increasing it's army recruitment about 6 months before 11/09.

    11. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by markh1967 · · Score: 1
      Actually, and not that I agree with even this, the data to be retained was simply the logs. ie where you are visiting, who you are mailing, who you were phoning and for how long. They would not have been required (or even allowed) to keep the actual data of any transmission (ie what was said).

      I think this is possibly worse than keeping everything. I used to make a point of replying to all spam with a fake error message. I don't think it helped reduce the volume by very much but now I'm on record as sending lots of emails to some very dodgy addresses.
      This is quite worrying.

      --
      Input error. Replace user and press any key to continue.
    12. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Blue+Stone · · Score: 1
      Quite.

      These surveillance laws are really there to monitor the general public. Any terrorist or competent evil-doer, will evade the survillance and go about doing their thing, without any increased chance of being noticed (because of these laws.)

      This is what makes me think these laws really are a breach of out human rights: that they are unrealistic in their claims to be about monitoring for terrorist activity.

      They impinge upon our right to free association (the chilling effect upon that,) and our right to not be subject to indiscriminate monitoring; just because an official doesn't look at the data until someone requests it, does not mean you're not being monitored all the time.

      The war on Iraq/Terrorism is to uphold our freedoms...and to that end, we're taking away your freedoms!

      We have left the Silicon Age. We are now entering the Satire Age: where life becomes satire.

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    13. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by beekr · · Score: 1

      Is it too late to add the "electric fence" option for my 2-year-old?

    14. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 1

      It's the 'War On Terror'. That ones a few years old.

      By the way, are we winning or losing that one? I haven't heard anything about it for several months...

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    15. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes, the war on terror. I've heard about that on TV, but they told me it was the same war as the war on drugs.

    16. Re:Across-the-Pond Comparison by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      I heard that there are more dirty bums living on the streets ready to mug us any second.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  6. Stand recognised by Jim+the+Bad · · Score: 3, Informative

    Glad to see Stand got a 'Winston'. Long overdue.

    --
    -- And when Justice is gone, there is always... Force. --Laurie Anderson, "Oh Superman"
  7. Thank goodness by Linux-based-robots · · Score: 5, Funny

    Thank goodness I live in the States where we don't have to worry about privacy issues! :P

    1. Re:Thank goodness by JUSTONEMORELATTE · · Score: 1

      One of my neighbors started to worry about privacy issues, but he's refs-unpersons now.

  8. Worst public servant by Neophytus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Worst Public Servant: London Mayor Ken Livingstone, whose traffic-reduction plan relies on a network of 700 surveillance cameras posted around the capital that photograph car license plates to enforce a new fee for driving during rush hour.

    I would disagree. Livingstone's system visibly cut traffic (certainly on the first day, since then the pictures havn't been plastered all over TV) and anyone can note down your registration plate anyway. In central London you cann't have ten lane wide payment barriers, nor can you widen roads or build flyovers. Something needed done, and this seemed drastic but as far a I can see it was one of the only viable options.

    1. Re:Worst public servant by oliverthered · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't think you fully understand, Livingston said that the Cameras were duel purpose
      1: the traffic thing, fair enough I say, more people should work from home.

      2: the we will use face recognition and catch everyone and anyone(evil nasty terrorists) in our security ring.

      That's an breach of privacy and trust.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    2. Re:Worst public servant by MartinG · · Score: 1

      Which part of the text you quoted are you saying you disagree with?
      As far as I can see you haven't disagreed with any of it, except maybe "worst public servant" and that was being said in the context of privacy invasion whereas you seem to be disagreeing in the context of traffic problems.
      If this were "traffic problem awards" you might have a point.

      --
      -- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz .@adgimnoprstu
    3. Re:Worst public servant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "the Cameras were duel purpose"

      Cool - we get to improve congestion problems and catch bearded fuckwit stone-age nazis at the same time!

      Face it, people - most people don't give a shit about all your tin-hat bullshit. Cameras are here to stay. Time to STFU?

      "Stop breaking the law, asshole" - Jim Carey (Liar Liar)

    4. Re:Worst public servant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop making laws that make me a criminal then.

      What happens if you didn't know you were breaking the law until they come and take you away.
      Oh and stop being a Black, Native American, Gypsie,Jew while your at it, law breaker.

    5. Re:Worst public servant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you mean `smoking hash` then that law is slowly burning away around the world. I'm more concerned with losers who rape and murder people than the rights of soft drug users. (And yes, obviously all drugs should be legal)

    6. Re:Worst public servant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the US and UK governments have just started murdering people in Iraq, does that count?

    7. Re:Worst public servant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .. like the 'frarming equipment' sent to Iraq

    8. Re:Worst public servant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, i'm in favour of more cameras there too. Unfortunately the US government wants the truth covered up.
      Fortunately, there are media outlets like Al-Jazeera:
      http://cryptome.org/us-blackout/us-bl ackout.htm

  9. Security vs. Freedom by Webmoth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Security and Freedom are mutually exclusive. When the Guvmint proclaims "we need to do this in the name of security," you can bet your freedoms will be trampled in the process.

    --
    Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
    1. Re:Security vs. Freedom by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Security == Job secrity for those in charge.
      (If I had a gun I may have shot Tony Blare by now)

      Freedom == The people you employee (the government) won't stop you from doing somthing(well today anyhow).

      Just think, in 10 years time the Nazi's will be inpower, it's a good job were keeping records of all the Gypsies, Native Americans, Arabs, Jews, Blacks, Sick and UnEmployeed are now.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    2. Re:Security vs. Freedom by aero6dof · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would argue that Security and Freedom are not exclusive at all. Furthermore, in the long run, freedom is the best guarantee of security.

    3. Re:Security vs. Freedom by sporty · · Score: 1

      Not really. Sometimes security provides freedom. I.e. I'm free to vote, and security prevents people from taking that away. People can't (shouldn't be able to) vote for me, I can't be physically detained from voting etc etc..

      In truth, security can have any varying affect on security.

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

    4. Re:Security vs. Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Hopefully, they'll be Grammar Nazis, so I don't have to read idiotic, poorly worded and mispelled posts like this on Slashdot anymore! Good thing Slashdot is keeping records of all the atrocities carried out against the English language!

    5. Re:Security vs. Freedom by Carbonite · · Score: 1

      If I had a gun I may have shot Tony Blare by now

      Well, I hope Big Brother didn't read that. I'm not sure what the law is in the UK, but in the US it's rather serious to threaten to harm/kill the President. Of course, you actually threatened someone named Tony Blare, who likely has no special laws protecting him.

      --
      ich muß mehr Kuhglocke haben
    6. Re:Security vs. Freedom by fatcat1111 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      While this is in practice generally true, this is actually false. Some good reads on the subject: Simson Garfinkel's Database Nation, and The Transparent Society by David Brin.

      From the former:
      Many people today say that in order to enjoy the benefits of modern society, we must necessarily relinquish some degree of privacy. If we want the convenience of paying for a meal by credit card, or paying for a toll with an electronic tag mounted on our rear view mirror, then we must accept the routine collection of our purchases and driving habits in a large database over which we have no control. It's a simple bargain, albeit a Faustian one.

      I think this tradeoff is both unnecessary and wrong. It reminds me of another crisis our society faced in the 1950s and 1960s -- the environmental crisis. Then, advocates of big business said that the poisoned rivers and lakes were the necessary costs of economic development, jobs, and an improved standard of living. Poison was progress: anybody who argued otherwise simply didn't understand the facts. Today we know better.

      --
      How Politicians Lie: http://www.factcheck.org/
    7. Re:Security vs. Freedom by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      It's not a threat.
      1: I don't have a gun
      2: I may have.

      It's ok to say things like that.

      Give me a Gun and I'll shoot Tony Blare.
      now that's a threat.

      Tony Blare isn't the Queen so It's not high treason either.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    8. Re:Security vs. Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeh, there called Americans.

    9. Re:Security vs. Freedom by sLaSh_N_bUrN_(.Y.) · · Score: 1

      What you would or would not argue makes no difference. What type of examples, proof, or ideas would you use in your arguement? Just saying I will argue against you, is not constructive.

    10. Re:Security vs. Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Security and Freedom are mutually exclusive. When the Guvmint proclaims "we need to do this in the name of security," you can bet your freedoms will be trampled in the process

      Repeat after me, Mr. Ashcroft...
      "Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety, deserve neither liberty or safety"

    11. Re:Security vs. Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please widen you're admonishment to the original poster saying they're exclusive.

    12. Re:Security vs. Freedom by sbeitzel · · Score: 1

      You would be wrong, but you may certainly argue that way.

      Freedom == capability. Security == ensuring that unauthorized capability does not exist.

      Therefore, security implies both the notion of authorization (and some restrictive authority) and the explicit placing of restrictions upon freedom. Merely arrogating to oneself the role of restrictive authority, as libertarians and fascists advocate, does not change this truth, nor does the communist or democratic vestiture of this role in some selected group of people.

      --
      Oh, go on, check out my job.
    13. Re:Security vs. Freedom by Blue+Stone · · Score: 1
      It's a daft way of looking at the issue, IMO.

      What is really at stake is: Security from whom?

      Terrorists or Government?

      Freedom from what?

      Terrorist bombing and crime, or Government fascism and control?

      We want freedom and security from both. But the government is effectvely taking away the threat of terrorists et al. (or at lest making the claim that they are) while ramping up the threat from themselves.

      Personally, I'm not sure there's that much difference between a terorist blowing you up, or suffocating in a police stranglehold.

      Whether it terrorists or a fascist State, the result is the same: the people live in fear.

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    14. Re:Security vs. Freedom by Cyberdyne · · Score: 1
      Not really. Sometimes security provides freedom. I.e. I'm free to vote, and security prevents people from taking that away. People can't (shouldn't be able to) vote for me, I can't be physically detained from voting etc etc..

      Depends what you mean by security. People here seem to be taking it as meaning physical security: not getting blown up, robbed etc. Personally, I'd define security as "keeping rights [i.e. freedoms] secure". Obviously, it's difficult to exercise any given freedom while dead, but there's much more to it than that. Enforcing the Fourth Amendment (or local equivalent), for example.

      My view is: as long as individual's rights are respected, the system's OK. Secret wiretaps on suspects? As long as they're properly authorized by a judge, that's OK - the system the EU or UK (I forget which) proposed, of "All ISPs and telcos must retain every log about everyone for 7 years, just in case" is totally unacceptable. On the other hand, I do recognise we need some mechanisms for investigation or monitoring of criminals and suspects: search warrants, telephone intercepts, etc. I'm just not convinced the existing systems need major changes!

    15. Re:Security vs. Freedom by Unregistered · · Score: 1

      wrong. percieved security and freedom tend to be, but security doesn't always conflict. do you think the terrorists would have been able to hijack those planes if people were allowed to carry guns on planes?

      Of course, the GOVERNEMNT'S freedom does tend to be dependant on reduced freedom, but that's a whole different problem.

    16. Re:Security vs. Freedom by freestyle-fiend · · Score: 1

      > Security and Freedom are mutually exclusive.

      Security of what? When my freedoms have been taken away, I have a little less to enjoy my security with.

      Total security is unattainable. You would have to give up a lot more than what you think of as your freedoms to achieve total security. Total security would involve never cosuming anything not prescribed to you, never leaving home alone *or* after dark and never using motor vehicles or routes used by motor vehicles. Even then, you would not be safe from age or violence. Face it. Recent security scares concern a threat that is inevitable, while recent security 'improvements' seek to achieve something that is not possible.

      This is not to say that all security measures are bad, just that the costs involved should also be considered. For example, security loopholes for domestic flights in the US have been closed. Even if there is no benefit from this, it does not matter, because nobody is severely inconvenienced by the measures. However, invasive privacy violating searches based on weak suspicions can only be justified if they achieve a level of
      success that is just not possible.

      > When the Guvmint proclaims "we need to do this in
      > the name of security," you can bet your freedoms
      > will be trampled in the process.

      So governments should not be trusted to talk about security truthfully, or to attatch so much value to it. They intended to remove our freedoms anyway, security just provides a useful justification.

  10. In Soviet Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Big brother is watched by YOU!

    1. Re:In Soviet Russia by Zemran · · Score: 1

      And in Britain we watch "Big Brother" ...

      --
      I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
  11. Of course, a parking space tax within the area by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Would have had a similar effect but without the need to spend £120 million initial investment and put the citizens under continial surveillance...

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
    1. Re:Of course, a parking space tax within the area by Ed_Moyse · · Score: 2, Informative

      Which London already has of course. You need to buy parking permits for most councils in london, and there are extremely large fines (normally £80) if you park in a space without one, or without paying about £2 per hour. That didn't stop congestion, and the money (about £140 million a year if I recall) raised went to individual councils rather than being spent on public transport.

  12. Re:The really scary thing about Blair by Angry+White+Guy · · Score: 1

    At least in his pursuit of justice his morals will (hopefully) keep Bush somewhat in check.
    Ahhh, the right thing to do, but for all the wrong reasons. That sums up my opinion of the current world leaders.

    --
    You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
  13. Hmm... by Peterus7 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What about Australia?

  14. Re:The really scary thing about Blair by TKinias · · Score: 1

    scripsit Angry White Guy:

    At least in his pursuit of justice his morals will (hopefully) keep Bush somewhat in check.

    Yeah, it's worked so well this far.

    --
    In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
  15. traffic laws enforced by cameras by pmineiro · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Worst Public Servant: London Mayor Ken Livingstone, whose traffic-reduction plan relies on a network of 700 surveillance cameras posted around the capital that photograph car license plates to enforce a new fee for driving during rush hour.

    I'm going to argue in favor of this strategy of enforcing traffic laws (speeding, stop signs, etc.) by video.

    First, I think it's a fairer approach. As we all know, being pulled over for traffic offenses is biased. Minorities and those driving tricked-out racer cars are more likely to get pulled over. The videocamera is totally unbiased. Of course, we must be careful to guard against bias in determining where these video units are deployed.

    In addition, I can't count the number of times attractive female (just) friends of mine have cried/clevaged their way out of various traffic tickets. Doing that in front of the camera might make them popular on the internet, but won't get them out of the ticket.

    It's also very easy to beat a traffic ticket by pleading not-guilty, moving the court date several times, and counting on the cop not to show, thus winning the case for lack of evidence. This latter strategy both shifts court costs to the public (no court fees collected when not guilty) and favors those who have enough time or a flexible enough job to handle the requisite scheduling. This strategy would be stopped dead by the permanent and available nature of video as evidence.

    Cops *have* died during traffic stops, either by being shot (purposefully) or by being run over (accidentally). So, traffic stops are dangerous from the police perspective, and probably creates some citizen-police tensions as some police are on guard during them. Video minimizes unnecessary, dangerous, and potentially explosive contact.

    Finally, I feel personally that this will lead to *less* invasive search, not more, because I don't have to worry about a cop searching my car for drugs, guns, or whatever he thinks I might have now that he had a valid reason to pull me over.

    -- p

    1. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by Carbonite · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As we all know, being pulled over for traffic offenses is biased. Minorities and those driving tricked-out racer cars are more likely to get pulled over.

      I agree that drivers of "tricked-out racer cars" will get pulled over more often than someone driving a beige Volvo, for example. This doesn't necessarily mean that the type of car increase the chance of being stopped. Driver of these "race cars" tend to race them. They tend to drive above the speed limit, sometimes, way above. This makes them likely targets for traffic stops.

      The issue of minorities being targeted leads into the issue of racial profiling. It's still very unclear to what extent racial profiling is practiced or even if it exists at all (during traffic stops). Studies have produced results to show both prove and disprove its existence. I believe that the vast majority of police practice behavior profiling, not racial profiling. If minorities are being pulled over in disproportionate numbers, could it be possible their behavior is the cause? I honestly don't know but it does seem to be very politically incorrect to suggest such a theory. Perhaps an automated system could prove useful data for this debate.

      --
      ich muß mehr Kuhglocke haben
    2. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      SO your sitting at a stop light and notice the trck approaching you from the rear is not slowing down. As a intelligent being, you move into the intersection and get out of the way.

      Now the automated system is sending you a ticket. One that will be near impossible to get out of, because, you know, computers don't make mistakes.

      A human being can make a judge ment and say, perhaps they shouldn't be ticketed.

      How many times will the system ticket you if you are speeding? If I am speeding, I get a ticket and then slow down. An automated system would ticket me over and over and over.

      So now an automated system is trusted more then you are.
      This is already a problem in stores. You are leaving a store, then suddenlt some infernal machine is beeping and flashing. So now you are in a position of proving your innocences to the shop keeper*. as a personal note, I will not stop because of that, nor will I let anybody stop me and check my bag as I leave a store. I urge others to do the same.

      Traffic cameras are only used as an alternate tax.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by Maeryk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now the automated system is sending you a ticket. One that will be near impossible to get out of, because, you know, computers don't make mistakes.

      I have driven for 15 years, and had three jobs that required driving 8 hours a day. I have _never_ run a red light to "avoid" someone behind me coming up fast. Have you? It's a straw man, in my opinion.

      How many times will the system ticket you if you are speeding? If I am speeding, I get a ticket and then slow down. An automated system would ticket me over and over and over.

      Heres a thought.. DONT SPEED! Howsabout that! I _hate_ chugging down the highway at highway speed, then suddenly being down to 45 (where the limit is 55) because some paranoiac at the front saw a cop and is now "making up" for going 70 before.

      So now an automated system is trusted more then you are.
      This is already a problem in stores. You are leaving a store, then suddenlt some infernal machine is beeping and flashing. So now you are in a position of proving your innocences to the shop keeper*. as a personal note, I will not stop because of that, nor will I let anybody stop me and check my bag as I leave a store. I urge others to do the same.


      I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you dont have anything in the bag you didnt pay for. But I kind of welcome those systems, because I know it keeps prices down. It may not stop _real_ accomplished shoplifters (like the guy I know who used to carry the tool to remove the trackers/dye-packs) but I suspect the majority of thefts are "cause I can" rather than people who are really into shoplifting. (Low number of career shoplifters vs relative high number of people who are kept honest by systems like that).

      Maeryk

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
    4. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by Kragg · · Score: 2, Informative

      This isn't really about enforcing traffic laws by video - it's about the inner London congestion charging.

      I fully agree that snapping speeders is an excellent idea. If you're doing 120 mph in a 70 zone, then you should be photographed, and ticketed.

      What PI are talking about is the fact that every driver who enters central London is photographed. While this is ostensibly in order to catch offenders who haven't paid their (£5) congestion charge for that day, the result is that the time and location of their entry into London is stashed in a database, regardless of whether they paid or not.

      The government currently say they won't use that information for anything, but it seems to me that having such a superb source of tracking info available is going to mean that this database gets requested by the police and/or defendants in all manner of cases to prove where people were at particular times.
      Welcome to the start of the Big Brother age in Britain.

      ...Of course, having said that it's not really practical for the Transport For London crew to actually throw that data away... that wouldn't make sense unless they were actively trying to promote individual privacy. Which they aren't. Hence the award.

      --
      If you can't see this, click here to enable sigs.
    5. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by roskakori · · Score: 1
      SO your sitting at a stop light and notice the trck approaching you from the rear is not slowing down. As a intelligent being, you move into the intersection and get out of the way. Now the automated system is sending you a ticket.
      so the camera records you driving into the intersections, followed by a truck out of control. guess how difficult it will be to prove you didn't break the law on purpose?
      An automated system would ticket me over and over and over.

      i'd expect such a system to give an visual or audible indication that you are speeding.

      don't know about the u.s., but some european countries have boxes beside the street taking photographs of speeding drivers. if you are too fast, you will notice the flashlight of the camera...
    6. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by White+Roses · · Score: 1
      If you're doing 120 mph in a 70 zone, then you should be photographed, and ticketed.

      No, you should be stopped, questioned as to why you are going so fast, and possibly arrested.

      What if I'm doing 120 because I am not cognitively aware that I am going 120? Say, I'm drunk?

      So, in my drunken stupor, I get photographed, and get a speeding ticket mailed to me three to six weeks later. But that night, after the picture was taken, I also mowed down 4 pedestrians and fled the scene. Now, is it possible that someone down at traffic control will realize it's the same car? Sure, possibly.

      Nice consolation for the families of the 4 dead.

      Traffic cameras are a bad idea. They don't stop someone from breaking the law, they just collect fees for the government. It also seems to shift the burden of proof: the fact that your car was photographed means it was you, and now you have to take the time to prove it wasn't, rather than the other way around.

      Scenario: bad mailing address attached to the license on the car. If this supposed driver had a hope of never being pulled over by a person, he could just keep on driving, no insurance, no worries about a revoked license. With cameras "making the bust," all he has to do is be hard for the cameras to locate for prosecution. Just think of the number of violations he'd have to accumulate before it became serious enough to warrant a concerted search.

      Scenario: your white minivan's license plate is swapped with another white minivan's plate. Someone else does the speeding, you get the ticket, and the hassle of proving it's not your car. Think those cameras can resolve VIN numbers?

      Anyway, nevermind the arguments against cameras. As long as they are keeping our streets safer, right?

      --
      Do not touch -Willie
    7. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by cpeterso · · Score: 1


      SO your sitting at a stop light and notice the trck approaching you from the rear is not slowing down. As a intelligent being, you move into the intersection and get out of the way.


      You are probably safer to be in a car that is rear-ended than a car in from the side in the middle of an intersection. And if your car is rear-ended, then the driver in back is guilty, by legal definition. If you drive through a red light into the middle of an intersection, then you may be at fault for a collision.

    8. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by Kragg · · Score: 1

      I kind of agree... but given that you can't have cops everywhere, speed cameras do act as an incentive to people (even drunk ones) NOT to speed in the first place.

      Whatever else you have against cameras, they're cheap and at least partially effective at stopping speeders (ignoring the fact that ours are purely an incentive since 99% of them have no film in anyway).

      But the key difference in terms of this argument is that they only go off if you're speeding. Whereas the congestion charge ones photograph everybody, in order to ensure that you're not dodging the congestion fees, and that data is then stored even if you weren't dodging the fees. Which is arguably an invasion of privacy.

      --
      If you can't see this, click here to enable sigs.
    9. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by Goth+Biker+Babe · · Score: 1

      "Heres a thought.. DONT SPEED! Howsabout that! I _hate_ chugging down the highway at highway speed, then suddenly being down to 45 (where the limit is 55) because some paranoiac at the front saw a cop and is now "making up" for going 70 before."

      That's the argument against exact cut off at the speed limit. If a driver is going to be pulled the moment they go over the speed limit they'll spend forever driving around staring at the speedo rather than concentrating on the road. If you give them a leaway then they'll not worry about it so much and actually look where they are going.

      Anyway it's not a speed that kills it's going too fast, where too fast is subjective. If it's raining or foggy you should have a lower limit. If there's more traffic then lower the limit. If it's a fine sunny day and there are few cars around, raise the limit. On a motorway early on a fine summer's Sunday morning which is total empty, crank the car or motorbike right up [1] (As I have done on the bike 130+mph it was fun)? What's going to happen? You won't hit anything because there's nothing to hit, you can see for miles and the road surface is good. Driving in a residential area or past a school you need to keep it right down because kids are about.

      In the UK they have implemented variable speed limits on a section of the London Orbital Motorway and it appears to work well. Cameras enforce the speed limit which varies according to conditions. It apparently reduces both congestion and emissions. The bigest complaint from the motoring organisations is that it doesn't increase the speed limit above the UK National Speed Limit (70mph) where appropriate.

      Technically speed limits aren't necessary in the UK as there is there are the two catch all offences of "Driving without due care and attention" and "Dangerous driving". And if you're driving too fast then you are surely driving dangerously. So in an ideal world speed limits wouldn't be required because people would assess the conditions and drive appropriately. Unfortunately this isn't an ideal world and some people are just plain bad drivers.

      Absolute speed doesn't kill. In appropriate speed kills absolutely.

      [1] Of course this is where legal!

    10. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by gdanjo · · Score: 1

      Don't you think "the government" has thought about the points you bring up? Don't you think they are trying to make us "somewhat happy" so we don't vote their arse out of office?

      Case in point: We recently got a permanent speed camera put on a busy road. I have personally sped through these cameras several times without getting a ticket. Friends of mine have sped through it and got nabbed.

      Then he told me what he was doing: He was overtaking all the cars, doing 20km/h over the limit on the whole stretch of road, then slamming the brakes when he realized the camera was close.

      I, on the other hand, had "drifted" past the limit by only around 5 to 10km/h, and eased the speed back when I realized it.

      So, can we now assume that the sending of a ticket is somewhat disconnected from the low-level function of "blinkenlights" when you speed?

      Dan ...

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Information wants to be valued.
    11. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by Happy+go+Lucky · · Score: 1
      First, I think it's a fairer approach. As we all know, being pulled over for traffic offenses is biased.

      Mostly in favor of the cops stopping drivers worth stopping. I'm not going to waste my time on a soccer mommy who's one second late on a light when I also see a redneck driving an uninsurable 1969 Dodge Dart, weaving and braking erratically. One's a under-$100 muni court ticket. The other one's probably a drunk. We don't get DUI fine money, but who gives a damn about that?

      In addition, I can't count the number of times attractive female (just) friends of mine have cried/clevaged their way out of various traffic tickets.

      You'd be shocked at how rarely that works, at least here in the western US. Showing flesh and turning on waterworks are guarantees of turning a warning into paper, with just about everyone on my department. You really want to beat a ticket from me? Be insured, keep your license and plates current, and don't lie to me or play head games, and my business card will be the only piece of paper you get from me.

      It's also very easy to beat a traffic ticket by pleading not-guilty, moving the court date several times, and counting on the cop not to show, thus winning the case for lack of evidence.

      It doesn't work anyway. Court clerks are wise to it, to the point that it's a bitch getting a re-schedule of a trial date. The right to trial doesn't imply anything about a right to weasel out by causing a trial to be delayed forever.

      Cops *have* died during traffic stops, either by being shot (purposefully) or by being run over (accidentally). So, traffic stops are dangerous from the police perspective, and probably creates some citizen-police tensions as some police are on guard during them.

      About a quarter of all line-of-duty slayings in the US occur on traffic. Being hit by cars isn't included in that stat.

      Video minimizes unnecessary, dangerous, and potentially explosive contact.

      Not to mention utterly-necessary contact. What do you think happens on a stop?

      I've already run your plate by the time you know I'm behind you. When I light you up, you're probably nervous. "Is he going to hang paper on me? Shit! Did I pay the last one? Do I really get a phone call if he arrests me for not paying the last one???" Or words to that effect.

      We're evaluating: Does he have sixteen used car stereos in the back seat? Eyes clear or bloodshot? Is that bottle's label for Aquafina or cheap vodka? Does he maybe even have a pretty good reason for driving 20 over, one that would get him out of a citation? (Yes, it happens. I'm willing to be convinced.) Is his license suspended? Is this an insurance proof, or just an agent's business card? (Both a big deal: insurance cheats are a pretty big reason for the rest of our rates being so high.)

      Cameras can't evaluate. They don't exercise judgement. People can. A drunk driver (revoked as a habitual traffic offender) with five stolen TV's in the back will get a mail-in ticket, assuming his license plate is actually valid with correct information. He'll wipe his ass with it. What to do then? And the average person like you or me will be annoyed, write a check, and probably not experience the emotional trauma of the stop, which is what usually negatively reinforces the unacceptable behavior (the traffic violations) anyway.

      If governments need to do revenue collection, I can think of an easier way. Punitive taxes on immigrants from California, for instance. The cameras SUCK for law enforcement or public safety purposes, though.

    12. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by Maxwell'sSilverLART · · Score: 1

      I have driven for 15 years, and had three jobs that required driving 8 hours a day. I have _never_ run a red light to "avoid" someone behind me coming up fast. Have you?

      No, I haven't been in that situation, but I do run red lights. About three times a week; corner of Goddard Ave and Flood St, in Norman, OK. I ride a motorcycle. Anybody who rides is well familiar with the fact that lights with sensors frequently don't trigger on motorcycles; if my bike doesn't trip the sensor, I don't get a green light. I have two options. 1) Wait an indefinite period of time for a car to show up and trip the sensor (maybe all night, if I'm going home late), or 2) run the damned light. Guess which I choose? I've asked several cops, and they all say I'm making the right choice. If I ever get pulled over, I'll explain it to the officer, and every cop I've talked to has told me that he'd forego the ticket in that situation. Tell me how to get a machine to understand that. No, I don't want to go to court--I have better things to do than take a day off work to fight a ticket that could have been avoided by a little human contact.

      Somebody else mentioned pulling through an intersection to make space for an ambulance to pass; I, too, have been in that situation. Not three days a week, mind you, but it's happened. Should I have been ticketed? The cop (it was a cop, not an ambulance) apparently didn't think so, as he didn't ticket me. Another example of human judgement. You never know when that will come in handy.

      On top of that, those cameras are notoriously inaccurate; I remember reading one case of a lady who received a ticket from a camera system. She wrote back to the police department:

      I swear, under penalty of perjury, that I did not run that red light. I further swear, under penalty of perjury, that your system cannot tell the difference between that SUV and the sporty coupe I drive. Is this enough to correct your error, or do I need to swear at you some more?
      Rather damning, really--the cameras can't even tell the difference between an SUV and a sport coupe.

      Short answer: no, the cameras are not a good idea. The idea that computers don't make mistakes--even when they do, and grossly--will make a mockery of justice.

      --
      Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
    13. Re:traffic laws enforced by cameras by armb · · Score: 1

      > SO your sitting at a stop light and notice the trck approaching you from the rear is not slowing down. As a intelligent being, you move into the intersection and get out of the way.

      > Now the automated system is sending you a ticket. One that will be near impossible to get out of

      Unless, as an intelligent being, you think of writing back pointing out the truck in the photo evidence. It's not like these systems work with no manual intervention at all.

      --
      rant
  16. Re:The really scary thing about Blair by Angry+White+Guy · · Score: 1

    I am reserving judgement on Blair until after the war. If he prevents the prolonged U.S. occupation of Iraq and prevents the U.S. from planting damning evidence in the event that there are no chemical weapons, then I'm glad he went in. That being said, he's (for this moment anyways) a weenie.

    --
    You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
  17. The even scarier thing is.. by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 0, Troll
    His drooling idiot of a trans-Atlantic friend with even more nuclear weapons.

    Together they are the original odd couple
    'tum-tee-tum-tee-tum tum-tee-tum tum-tee-tuuum-tum'.

    1. Re:The even scarier thing is.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Do you find that chick in the Verizon commercial attractive? If not, you must be a faggot. Every time she comes back and says "I forgot my phone" and that dude reaches for the wrong one, I just about cum in my pants. I wish George Lucas would digitally remove the guy and his asshole friends, and take her clothes off.

  18. Our hatred for the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    The reason the US is so reviled abroad is that your government has committed evil in your name. You've supported brutal dictators, you've torn down democracies, you've bombed civilians, you've supported invasions of sovereign territory.

    The real way to stop terrorism is to stop pissing people off so much that they're willing to die just to slap your face. "Shock and Awe" isn't going to stop terrorism, unilateral action isn't going to win friends.

    Swallow your pride, work through your anger, stop killing so many people. Please.
    1. Re:Our hatred for the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of saying you hate America as a whole, why not say you hate our government? They're the idiots who got the ball rolling on this, not us. They're taking our hard earned money and spending it on this senseless war.

      You might have a point, except for the fact that 75 to 80% of the American people support the action in Iraq.

    2. Re:Our hatred for the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason the US is so reviled abroad is that your government has committed evil in your name

      That's not true! The rest of the world hates us is because they are jealous of our standard of living! George W. said so himself, and he would never lie to us! Sheesh!

    3. Re:Our hatred for the US by kemkerj · · Score: 1

      So, when the US tries to oust a brutal dictator (2 MILLION people killed by Saddam Hussein), we're to be "reviled" by the world?

      Okay. Sure. I follow your thinking.

      Also, when the US gathers a larger coalition of allies than has ever been seen in the history of the world, that's "unilateral" action?

      Well, there you go again.

  19. Not all "Big Brothers of the Year" are Bad Guys... by sssmashy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Big Brothers Big Sisters of America

    Meet the 2002 National Big Brother and Big Sister of the Year

    Richard Gandarillas and Devin Little Brother Devin is determined that his match with Big Brother of the Year Richard Gandarillas will be the longest one ever in the history of Big Brothers / Big Sisters of America.

    "He is a Big Brother you can talk to. We have a lot of fun together, and he also helps me with my problems," says Devin. "He talks to me about things that can help me now and in the future."

    Big Brother Richard calls their friendship "outstanding." "Devin is a bright, charismatic, 11-year-old who enjoys any challenge," he says. "He is blessed with the spirit of youth and the passion to learn, which I am eager to share. He is a great kid, and I expect someday will be a great man."

    According to Richard, "The high point of my relationship with Devin can't be summed into one event. I recall the first time Devin trusted me enough to open his communication. Today, we can't wait to have conversations and share our thoughts. In our years together, we've taught each other a great deal."

    In addition to his relationship with Devin, Richard is involved with Greater Columbus' BBBS in Schools program and has three school-based Littles. He has also been instrumental in developing the agency's first bilingual program for Hispanic students.

    Before moving to the Columbus area and being matched with Devin, Richard had a Little through the Lynchburg, Virginia affiliate. "Big Brothers Big Sisters came into my life when the time was right for me to become involved," he says.

  20. Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These are the UK Big Brother Awards! The American awards don't happen till April 3rd. Could ya change the article title to reflect that, por favor? I kinda don't wanna be lumped in with the lymies...

  21. Re:I'm not kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    It's played a lot on Cartoon Network. Watch Courage the Cowardly Dog tonight and you'll proably see her. It is a little odd to be watching Courage with your pants around your ankles tho, let me tell you.

  22. Re:The really scary thing about Blair by TKinias · · Score: 1

    scripsit Angry White Guy:

    If he prevents the prolonged U.S. occupation of Iraq and prevents the U.S. from planting damning evidence in the event that there are no chemical weapons, then I'm glad he went in.

    That's an interesting perspective, but I fail to see how we'd know, at least for another fifty years... It's not like BBC will run a story: ``Paras Prevent Yanks Planting Evidence.''

    That being said, he's (for this moment anyways) a weenie.

    Not a weenie, just a Tory with a red shirt ;)

    --
    In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
  23. Re:The really scary thing about Blair by voiceofthewhirlwind · · Score: 1

    It's a delicate balance, as others can see his support as giving too much legitimacy (putting the 'coalition' in the 'Coalition of the etc.') to the war effort.

    I haven't follow Blairs actions in detail- but your line of argument would only hold if Blair was strongly principled enough to look out for manufactured evidence and/or has not staked his support of the invasion primarily on the possible existence of Nuke/Chem/Bio weapons.

    As for reserving judgement, this is my drowning-witches test: In extreme situations, a principled person should be able to follow an unpopular and possibly just plain wrong course of action with ulterior respectable motives in mind, and then accept all consequences (jail, lost re-election, lost face) without complaint. If Blair knows and accepts poor judgement now and afterwards, then he's probably doing the Right Thing. So, I say, curse Blair aloud and but silently praise him for the small good he may be trying to do.

  24. Kazaa by silvakow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How did kazaa not make the list? They collect demographic information from every computer that is on its network.

    --
    In the long run, we're all dead.
    1. Re:Kazaa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because these were the UK awards... and I believe (like the oscars) the events have to have started in the year in question... since Kazaa has been around for more than 1 year(I think atleast... if it hasn't don't rip my head off) I am not sure it is eligable...

  25. Re:MS to win award anyway! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NOT! These awards seem only for open source. Not Big Brother but UCOSA.

  26. We ALREADY know about MS, people! by Mulletproof · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Instead of beating the dead horse, induct them into the Hall of Fame already!

    --
    You need a FREE iPod Nano
  27. Re:The really scary thing about Blair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blair has consistantly stated that the U.N. would play a key role in the rebuilding of Iraq. This is a welcome change from the U.S. doling out contracts to their friends and supporters. But like I said, this remains to be seen. And for all of you ready to jump all over me re: the Haliburton subsidiary contracts et al, My stance on that matter is taht I think that it's a conflict of interest to have a contract go to Cheney's friends, but I don't think that one contract was enough to start the war. We're all aware of opportunism in office. We cannot hold one's government to be completely beyond reproach. That would put them on the level of Gods, and that's no good for anyone.

  28. Which state is UK again? by YetAnotherName · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's near Oklahoma and Utah, right? I mean, I hardly recognize this "Governor Tony Blair."

    --
    No, I'm not Amero-Centric.

    1. Re:Which state is UK again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try looking for him under the American spelling of his name... Tony Blah.

  29. amen by EvilStein · · Score: 1

    I really couldn't agree with you more. I don't know.. *I* never gave Experian/etc ANY right to my financial information. Why should they have it? Why can't I say "remove any information you have regarding my SSN xxx-xxx-xxxx, now!" and have them do it?
    Annoying.

    1. Re:amen by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > *I* never gave Experian/etc ANY right to my financial information. Why should they have it?

      RTFFP. Read the Fuc^H^Hine Fine Print.

      Everything you sign at a bank, whether it be to open a checking account, apply for a loan, or apply for a credit card, has fine print.

      Usually that fine print will say "We may also share customer information to credit bureaus and similar organizations" somewhere in it. In order for you to get the loan, they need to know your creditworthiness. As a condition of getting your card, or your bank account, you allow them to send that information back to the credit bureaus.

      Don't like it? Don't apply for the card, loan, or account.

      Of course, every bank does this, so if you really don't like it... you won't get any credit cards, loans, or bank accounts.

      But there's nothing in the law that requires banks from demanding the right to shar^H^H^Hell your customer information -- but balancing that, there's nothing in the law requiring that you do business with banks.

      I choose to do business with banks because it's more convenient. I'm paying for a pretty high level of convenience with a relatively moderate cost to my privacy. I happen to loathe my bank and the way it hawks my data, and likewise, I loathe the way I have to, every frickin' year, tell them "no, I don't want 5 inserts for vaccuum cleaners with my credit card statement, you fux0ring d0rx!". Of course, I loathe all other banks equally.

      If a bank were to show up that actually respected its customers' privacy, I'd gladly do my business with that bank. Of course, some morons must buy their vaccuum cleaners through credit card bills, otherwise the ads wouldn't show up, so someone must be making money by doing this. I therefore suspect that my mythical "PrivacyBancorp" would be less profitable for its shareholders, and would soon be bought out by a more profitable bank, rendering the point moot. But I dunno - privacy geeks tend to be into computers, and thus have good jobs - maybe they're a good market segment, so maybe there's a buck to be made in keeping customer data as private as the law allows.

      At the moment, I lack the $500M or thereabouts required to start my own frickin' bank and find out for myself. Anyone wanna set up a PayPal fund? :)

    2. Re:amen by lewp · · Score: 1

      You bring up a good point, though. Wouldn't there be a market for a bank that didn't have all this fine print?

      I know I'd sign up, even if it cost me a few bucks a month over First Union (who has pissed me off a few times lately, anyway).

      --
      Game... blouses.
    3. Re:amen by freestyle-fiend · · Score: 1

      > I ... suspect that my mythical "PrivacyBancorp"
      > would be less profitable for its shareholders, and
      > would soon be bought out by a more profitable bank,

      Right. This might not be achievable through the traditional shareholder-owned banking model. In any case, trusting an organisation that works for someone else (shareholders, not cutomers) seems... um... brave.

      However, there are alternatives. If a bank was owned by the state or by the customers, then even if providing a good service hurt its profitability, then there might not be an oppotunity for a rival to take it over.

      If a bank (or something like one) was owned and run by the state, then it ought to be run in the interests of voters, which will include most customers. If it is run in the interests of voters, then it can afford lower profits than private sector competitors. It can consider the value of providing good service in its own right, rather than guaging success by profit, even though it will be expected to contirbute to state funds. Here in the UK we have the National Savings Bank (http://www.nationalsavings.co.uk/). Unfortunately, they don't lend money (governments themselves always want to borrow), and government is the source of much of our privacy worries, so perhaps this is not the solution.

      Cooperative organisations (owned by customers) have no goals other than serving their customers. Unless doing so prevents the service from being provided, customers are able to make a cooperatively owned finacial organisation protect their privacy. Selling of personal information can certainly be stopped. Of course, less money will be made this way, but all of the profit are kept by the customers. The result is that even if a bank offers you the privacy you desire, it will come at a financial cost. However, if a cooperatively owned 'bank' protects your privacy, then you still get better value than you would from a bank, because you get the profits as well (while a bank would take profits for shareholders by setting less generous interest rates). Here in the UK, we have cooperative 'banks'. They are called 'building societies'. Traditionally, they have not provided credit cards and cheque books, but some now do. I believe they provide unsecured loans, mortgages and savings products with better value than banks.

  30. Whatever floats your boat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..But personally, I'd prefer knowing that the Empress has no clothes.

    Mmmm. Naked sovereigns.

  31. FUD Alert? by Ed_Moyse · · Score: 1

    When did he EVER say they were going to use facial recognition?

  32. Open this up to the USA by Jackmon · · Score: 1

    Come on! Ashcroft would kick everyone's ass.

  33. Link allert by oliverthered · · Score: 1
    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    1. Re:Link allert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, hear him! He's got an extra 'l' as well!

    2. Re:Link allert by Ed_Moyse · · Score: 1
      Fair enough, I'd missed that.

      The original poster made it sound much more orwellian though - as far as I'm concerned, that sounds fair enough. They're not tracking everyone, but if a car is flagged ... elsewhere in that article he says that 1 in 10 cars in london isn't registered, and isn't insured. I guess this system will get them off the roads at least, which has to be a very good thing.

  34. classic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can dig it.

    That was excellent.

  35. One more to add to this list by TarPitt · · Score: 1
    The FBI has ruled that unverified infomration may now be included in the National Crime Information Center . This database is restricted to law enforcement use only - citizens are not allowed to view their own records. Background checks for employement in many cases rely on this database. Formerly, only information known to be accurate was to be included. This requirement has been lifted because "it is administratively impossible to ensure compliance." (e.g. too damn hard for us..)


    Expect now all sorts of rumor and innuendo to be included, such as results of police activity spying on lawful political groups.

    --
    If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
    1. Re:One more to add to this list by Dausha · · Score: 1

      I hope you do not mind a couple of nits being picked. First, it was the Justice Department, not the FBI, who "lifted a requirement Monday that the FBI ensure the accuracy and timeliness of information about criminals and crime victims before adding it to the country's most comprehensive law enforcement database." (From your cited article) I'm sure this is just the Telephone Game at play.

      Without a more detailed look into what the new criteria are, exactly, it may be presumptuous to state that any old 'rumor or innuendo' is suitable grounds. Otherwise, I could whisper that Slashdot supports copyright violations and upon that whisper alone surveillance would be made of every member--guilt by rumored association.

      Fortunately, in reading the article you cited second, it looks like the Mayor of Denver took charge of the situation, admitting that the Police were overzealous. However, there remains a litmus test of criminality. Just because a peaceful protest is being conducted does not mean criminal acts are not involved--and this does not mean that criminal acts *are* involved, either. Living in DC and knowing a few cops, I hear all sorts of anecdotes of criminal behavior conducted within peaceful demonstrations. I have also witnessed a few first hand.

      Furthermore, the ACLU seems to be doing its civil duty to confront such abuses.

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
  36. You *literally* lost your right to due process... by JohnDenver · · Score: 1

    Not a flame.. an honest question

    My response isn't just to you, but to others who don't think losing freedoms aren't that big a deal.

    Imagine one day you were arrested for being a terrorist (I know the idea is silly, but bear with me) planning on performing a terrorist act.

    Given the current state of affairs, President Shrub could label you, an American Citizen, an "enemy combatant" and throw you into military detention indefinitely without the right to talk to an attorney to plead your case.

    He did it with Jose Padilla (The Dirty Bomber).

    *EVEN* South Africa allowed Nelson Mandela to talk to his attorney.

    Realistically, You're not a terrorist, and I doubt people have a personal vendetta against you. After all, you're no rabble rouser. Even if you were, I doubt President Shrub would throw you into military detention for being a rabble rouser. He still has to justify it to the apathetic masses. He wants to get re-elected, right? ...but when he threw Jose Padilla in military detention, not many people batted an eye. He actually got away with throwing an American in miltary detention, which would have been difficult to impossible a couple of years ago, EVEN if he was a terrorist.

    People who aim to take away your personal liberties aren't stupid. They either do it by justifying it with special circumstances (exception to the rule). If they persist with special circumstances long enough, the exception to the rule tends to become the rule.

    I don't consider myself THAT informed, but I came up with "due process rights" pretty quickly , which wasn't even LEGISLATED. Let me repeat that: They took away your due process rights without legislating anything, let alone ammending the constitution.

    Is it REALLY unlikely they won't abuse the Patriot Act and Patriot II legislation if they clearly don't respect due process?

    By all means, Love your Country, NEVER Trust Your Government

    --
    "Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
  37. EXPERIAN by oliverthered · · Score: 1

    They were up for nomination (GUS the parent of Experian also owns Argos who were up for nomination too).

    Experian is a credit, car-data, everything you've ever done or want to do, data-warehousing company. (I only deal with injury fraud and car insurance none of the real nasty stuff)

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  38. Correction by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

    Ruby Ridge happend in 1992. Clinton was sworn in in January, 1993.

    Anti-Government site about it:
    http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firear ms/en force/rubyridge/

  39. YOU LOST YOUR RIGHT TO USE LINUX!!! by JohnDenver · · Score: 1

    Again, tell me a right you have lost. You listed a number of things the Government changed, but you have yet to mention a right you have lost.

    What were you expecting? Lost your right to take walks after 10:00 PM, or use Linux as an operating system?

    The right to privacy and due process is not so much about the freedom to do things, it's mostly about protecting the public from corrupt government officials who abuse thier powers.

    Traditionally, wisely, and conservatively, power has been balanced with accountability and/or transparency. Every official must be either accountable for thier actions. To ensure that an officials actions can be held accountable, they must be transparent to a third-party/public to prevent an official from concealing corruption.

    I feel like a mother telling her son that we live in a dishonest world. "You NEVER give your money to a stranger, even if he says he'll give it right back with 100% interest." (Do you know how many people STILL fall for that kind of scam?)

    --
    "Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
    1. Re:YOU LOST YOUR RIGHT TO USE LINUX!!! by Maeryk · · Score: 1

      What were you expecting? Lost your right to take walks after 10:00 PM, or use Linux as an operating system?

      Yeah.. thats what I'm expecting. I keep hearing people crying a river about losing rights, and I have yet to see one that has been lost. If we are becoming increasingly right wing and fascist in this country, why arent the people parading around with pictures of Bush ne' hitler in protests being arrested, harassed?

      What rights are going away? My right to threaten and harass someone in email? My right to send "anonymous" information? (Bear in mind.. I dont think you ever _did_ have the right to anonymity). People keep screaming about the Ashcroft assault on rights, but I see no-one bitching loudly about the rights assault on medical information. That was quietly slipped through.. and the "information" packets they send you are about as comprehensible as those stupid homeland security pages.

      Traditionally, wisely, and conservatively, power has been balanced with accountability and/or transparency. Every official must be either accountable for thier actions. To ensure that an officials actions can be held accountable, they must be transparent to a third-party/public to prevent an official from concealing corruption.

      And how has this changed? Can they suddenly bring me to trial, and provide a bunch of evidence against me without saying how or where they got it? Bear in mind.. right to search and seizure still doesnt mean that a judge is going to agree with them. The balance is still there, and that balance is the judge/jury. I dont fear being tried by a judge wearing black jackboots and a mask.

      Maeryk

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
  40. well what about the right to assemble? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check this link to an oregon senate bill.
    http://www.infowars.com/print_oregon_742.ht m
    You will be defined as a terrorist if at least
    1 person in a group planned to disrupt traffic.
    oh and it is life in prison.

    1. Re:well what about the right to assemble? by Maeryk · · Score: 1

      text follows:


      A BILL FOR AN ACT
      Relating to terrorism; creating new provisions; and amending
      section 19, chapter 666, Oregon Laws 2001.
      Be It Enacted by the People of the State of Oregon:
      SECTION 1. { + (1) A person commits the crime of terrorism if
      the person knowingly plans, participates in or carries out any
      act that is intended, by at least one of its participants, to
      disrupt:
      (a) The free and orderly assembly of the inhabitants of the
      State of Oregon;
      (b) Commerce or the transportation systems of the State of
      Oregon; or
      (c) The educational or governmental institutions of the State
      of Oregon or its inhabitants.
      (2) A person commits the crime of terrorism if the person
      conspires to do any of the activities described in subsection (1)
      of this section.
      (3) A person may not be convicted of terrorism except upon the
      testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act or upon
      confession in open court.
      (4)(a) A person convicted of terrorism shall be punished by
      imprisonment for life.
      (b) When a person is convicted of terrorism under this section,
      the court shall order that the person be confined for a minimum
      of 25 years without possibility of parole, release to post-prison
      supervision, release on work release or any form of temporary
      leave or employment at a forest or work camp.


      Provision one PROTECTS your right to peacefully and freely assemble, not the other way around it.

      I think there is a difference between conspiracy and planning. Besides it requires "overt action" and two witnesses thereof. I doubt "planning" in your head counts as overt action, by ANYONES judgement.

      BTW: it doesnt mention "traffic" per se.. it mentions "commerce and transportation systems of the state" which means busses, trains, airplanes, etc.

      And yes, I utterly agree with this. If you want to protest the war, do it in the park. If you do it across the highway while I am tryign to get home to pick my kid up from school, well, thats not peaceful assembly anymore, thats deathrace 2000, as far as I'm concerned.

      Maeryk

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
    2. Re:well what about the right to assemble? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah but when large groups of people gather
      there is generally some sort of overflow that
      could possible obstruct a bus. If I believed
      that everyone was totally honest this bill
      would be no problem. But if someone could get
      5 mins. of fame by saying they knew you wanted
      to be a bad guy. You are screwed. This just makes it easier for people who have power to abuse
      that power.

  41. Dead U.S. Soldiers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Aljazeera videos of the dead U.S. soldiers and POWs are up at http://fuckthat.org.

  42. Re:Hmm... Australia by the_raptor · · Score: 1

    Well "our" governement tried to push through a bill to add to the powers of ASIO (Australian Security and Intelligence Organisation) for a third time just at the start of the war. The bill would have allowed the government to hold even children (who committed double-plus ungood thoughtcrimes) for weeks with out informing any one. Fun.

    James

    --

    ========
    CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
  43. OT: on speed limits by mi · · Score: 1
    Heres a thought.. DONT SPEED! Howsabout that!

    This would've been a great solution, but the speed limits are much too low where I live. AFAIK, they are also too indiscriminate in most of the world -- they don't take into account the quality of the car (its suspension, breaks, and tires) nor the quality of the driver (a NASCAR participant at 85 mph is a safer driver than an 80-year old at 50 -- especially, with a turn-light blinking for the last 10 miles).

    Montana's law, that allowed any "reasonable and proper" speed was recently struck down as too vague :-\ I'd love a system, where someone could run through (and pay for) a higher classification for her/his car and him/herself to get authorization to drive, say 40% above speed limit, or something... But this is far too offtopic.

    I _hate_ chugging down the highway at highway speed, then suddenly being down to 45 (where the limit is 55) because some paranoiac at the front saw a cop and is now "making up" for going 70 before.

    "The only car, that does not slow down at the sight of a policeman is a parked one". (Don't remember the source).

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:OT: on speed limits by Maeryk · · Score: 1

      Montana's law, that allowed any "reasonable and proper" speed was recently struck down as too vague :-\ I'd love a system, where someone could run through (and pay for) a higher classification for her/his car and him/herself to get authorization to drive, say 40% above speed limit, or something... But this is far too offtopic. \

      My uncle lives in Montana. this is how it was explained to me. Montana didnt have a speed limit, at all, but paid the "fines" (lack of federal money) to the gubmint for that privelege. As soon as it "got round" to the rest of the country, lots of people started showing up in Montana cause there was no speed limit. Lots of people started doing 90 through towns, hitting moose, and generally causing huge amounts of trouble (and accidents) they never had before with "the locals". So the speed limit was changed.

      Maeryk
      (which goes to show you, people will be idiots, at least some of the people, all of the time)

      --
      Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
    2. Re:OT: on speed limits by mi · · Score: 1
      My uncle lives in Montana. this is how it was explained to me...

      There might be something to his explanation, but the real reason, as I stated, was that the "reasonable and prudent" (I misquoted originally) was considered too vague.

      doing 90 through towns

      All I ask for, is being able to go at 90 on a multi-line limited access highway legally in my recent issue Jetta. This would cut down my regular Boston-NYC commute by an hour each way... But nooo...

      (which goes to show you, people will be idiots, at least some of the people, all of the time)

      Show me? I never disputed this...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  44. Don't move to New Jersey then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  45. Running a red light by wowbagger · · Score: 1

    I have been in cases where I have been stopped at a red light and run it - divided road, I was in the right lane, another car was in the left lane, and an ambulance running hot was coming up behind. I checked the intersection, gunned it, ran the light, and immediately pulled over on the other side to make a hole for the ambulance. I conjecture the driver of the ambulance appreciated my efforts.

    So there are the rare occasions that it is needful to run a light.

    Also, Montana did have a speed limit, even during the "reasonable and prudent" days. If you were hauling along at 100MPH and passed a trooper, he was probably going to have a talk with you, unless the road was damn straight and you were in a vehicle that was competent for 100MPH - damn rare circumstances.

    But yes, there were the idiots who couldn't understand what "reasonable and prudent" was, and when they got a ticket would fight it in court, saying "Unconstitutionally Vague! I want a Number!". So finally Montana had to change.

    A pity. Back in 1997 I was on vaction in that area (heading from the Black Hills of South Dakota to Yellowstone). I maintained an average of 90MPH on I-90. Of course, I *was* being reasonable and prudent - the road was basically empty save for me, I was driving a 1997 Grand Marquis (think Police Intercept but plush), and if I couldn't see at least a minute down the road I slowed down. I was being "reasonable and prudent", and now due to stupid people I can no longer do that - a capsule view of our society today.

    I swear - give me a time machine (I already have the scoped rifle), and I'd be considering looking up Dr. Spock for what his stupid ideas have done for society.

  46. It doesn't have a �5/day by Moderation+abuser · · Score: 1

    Tax on any space used for parking a car, so, no, it doesn't already have a tax on parking spaces...

    --
    Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
    1. Re:It doesn't have a �5/day by Ed_Moyse · · Score: 1

      I don't understand what you mean - it is virtually impossible to park a car in central london without paying. Unless you live in central london, it costs far more than £5 a day to park there. The key point about this system though is it only charges people if they go into london during certain hours... it's free off-peak, so I can drive in to meet people in the evening.

  47. Re:The really scary thing about Blair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least in his pursuit of justice his morals will (hopefully) keep Bush somewhat in check.

    Was that supposed to be tagged as 'Funny'? Bush's morals are what got us here - he's convinced whatever he does is blessed by God.

  48. Re:The really scary thing about Blair by Angry+White+Guy · · Score: 1

    Firstly, the blessed by God falls on Rumsfeld before Bush, and secondly, I was talking about Blair's morals. I hope that Blair acts as the sober voice of reason in this conflict, but alas, the die has bin cast, hasn't it?

    --
    You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
  49. Rights and Freedoms aren't the same things... by JohnDenver · · Score: 1

    I think there's a little miscommunication going on here. Apparently, when someone mentions "rights" to you, your definition isn't inclusive enough that it includes protection from the government. You seem to be equating rights (n. 6a-6b) with freedom .

    In this case: We're talking about legal rights (Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature) AS protections which were designed to protect citizens corrupt government officials wielding their power unjustly.

    Our friend "OneEyedApe" listed the protections (RIGHTS) and freedoms that we lost.

    First of all, I'm all for hunting terrorists, and I'm even for the invasion of Iraq. I'm also for the protesting (not their goals, just their protests) as I think I believe they are playing a key part in showing the world that not all Americans are daemons. If it weren't for them, I believe we would truly be having an undeclared holy war much like Israel/Palestine.

    You're not talking to a liberal hippie who's just following the crowd chanting anti-corporate ideology. If you check my posting history, you'll see that I'm consistently for free market and free society but most of all I believe that these things can only be achieved by continuing the tradition of limited authority and transparency in government positions.

    I understand the government is an integral institution that needs to crack down on organized crime, corruption, terrorism, and everything else that plagues society and prosperity. I also understand that organized crime, corruption, money laundering, and other illegal activity can easily permeate itself WITHEN the institutions which are supposed to protect us from crime and corruption.

    Laws, Regulations, and Rights are all subject to circumvention. Criminals, Politicians, and Industry have been circumventing these protections for years. It doesn't necessarily mean politicians and industry is bad (sometimes criminals aren't bad). What it does mean is that we need to give them incentive to keep honest people honest, and make life more difficult for people who wish to not abide by the law.

    I suggest you take another look at OneEyedApe's list of lost rights we lost, and then consider how as a criminal, corrupt politician, or lobbyist group could abuse these circumstance.

    I invite you to take an active roll researching newspapers for past stories about corrupt politicians, criminal organizations, whistle-blowers, blantent lobbying, and read how they circumvent existing protections, let alone with when the protections are gone.

    Having lived in the third-world, where politicians respect rights about as much as you seem to respect them, I can personally attest as to how thier lack of rights and protections from corrupt government officials stagnates any chance for prosperierity.

    I thought I would include a brief example of how one MAY lose your rights (There are many ways of taking peoples rights away).

    1. Someone finds an exception to the rule. (Pinky inserted into anus)
    2. Others test exception, try variations of the exception. (Index finger inserted, followed by Middle finger, and Thumb)
    3. People start testing things that appear to be exceptions, which aren't exceptions. (Two fingers)
    4. Person discovers form of exception which circumvents the purpose of the rule entirely. (Three fingers)
    5. Everybody uses this unique exception. (Anus is fisted and bleeding at this point)

    ...and that's how the exception becomes the rule...

    I understand that many of hippies don't understand the complexity of the situation, but don't throw away this orthodoxy just because they can't explain why it's necessary.

    --
    "Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce