Slashdot Mirror
The Riddle of Baghdad's Battery
Jodrell writes "The BBC has an interesting article about a 2,200 year old battery discovered in Iraq in 1938. It is basically a clay pot containing a copper/iron core immersed in an electrolye solution (probably acidic vinegar). The article talks about how this priceless artifact as well as many others, from the same civilisation that invented writing and the wheel, could be threatened by the impending war."
It's not a battery! It's a chemical weapon! Call Hans Blix!
Some would say that removing Saddam is more important than any priceless artifacts.
Read some history. Iraq is not populated today by the same peoples that invented this device or "discovered the wheel" as you say thousands of years ago. The Islamic faith and the migrations of Arabic peoples into historically Persian regions over time has erased the cultural legacy of these peoples you refer to.
i just have one question. how can you call this a battery? correct me if i am wrong but it wasnt until the 1700's that humans discovered electricity and began trying to control it and use it.
this priceless artifact sounds more like someone droped a spoon or fork into a bottle of vinegar and forgot to take it out until a couple of mellinia later.
Don't get me wrong, I think the old battery is neat.
HOWEVER
I think it's really sad that "what about the battery" is even considered a worhty concern in the war issue. Regardless of your side on the issue there are peoples lives involved here. Hawks you're concerned about the threat to American lives, and doves tend to be concerned about the threat to the Iraqi people's lives.
Either way, concerns about an old clay pot seem to pale in comparison
I've got a 4.2 million year old 4.1GHz Pentium VI Xeon.
The article talks about how this priceless artifact as well as many others, from the same civilisation that invented writing and the wheel, could be threatened by the impending war.
And I suppose the artifacts never had anything to fear from Iraq being run by an expansionist, sadistic madman who is known to do things such as setting whole oil fields on fire.
Sorry. I looked everywhere for guilt, but just couldn't find any.
So we either (possibly) lose some priceless artifacts, or we lose priceless lives when the next terrorist strike comes.
I know which one is more important. Do you?
was the big stone-carved vibrator that went with it...
Tired of being "punished" by the Slashdot $rtbl since 2002. I'm now over at http://soylentnews.org/ .
This is just another example of why aggressive archaelology is generally a bad thing. Archaeologists, whose real aim is to 'advance science' which just so happens to translate into not ever having to leave academia and get a job, make it their aim to uproot and document everything.
Once all the evidence and traces, which happened to have survived all the years for various reasons, is housed in steel and glass buildings, we can be assured that within a few generations it'll be reduced to dust.
Two hundred years from now when they've perfected some sort of x-ray telemetry measurement and can 'view' tombs without doing anything at all to disturb their contents, there won't be any tombs left undisturbed.
But Johnny won't have had to go out and get a job after graduating. He's got tenure now.
If it were not for their fundamentalist Islamic beliefs for the last 2,000 years, they would not be wallowing in their own feces at the bottom of the intellectual food chain. Nothing kills a culture's intellectual potential than the fantatical devotion to invisible people living in the clouds. Imagine the potential of man that has been wasted because of his fear of death and the need to soothe that fear with belief in myths and fairly tales.
Oh yea, Joseph, its not your kid but don't worry, I'm still a virgin because "The Holy Spirit" hit it, not your brother...
Subsequently, the defense department has changed Homeland Security status to Condition Copper, indicating a potentially shocking situation.
Agreed. Anyway, how many priceless artifacts have been destroyed by the massive tunneling the Iraqis have done to hide weapons. I am sure that preserving antiquities was not their highest priority.
Worst. Sig. Ever.
The article states:
Though this was hard to explain, and did not sit comfortably with the religious ideology of the time, he published his conclusions.
How did identifying it as a battery conflict with religious ideology of the time? I'm truly curious. Any suggestions?
I mean, it couldn't have been because there's no passage saying "And then God invented the battery and said it was good".
Did it confict with the European idea that they were the center of science and religion?
"It's a tarp!" -- Dyslexic Admiral Ackbar
that's quasi-oxymoronical.. :)
...when he invaded Kuwait in 1990 and his soldiers ransacked the museums:
r aq 1/000801a.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/i
Tom
The Army reading list
oops... I must be tired, instead of than the liberation of millions of Iraqis, I've read "than the liberation of millions of oil barrils"
Under the right circumstances, ordinary pieces of metal (like plumbing) exposed to acid can make "batteries" by chance. More intriguing is the "un batteried" iron obelisk I recall hearing about in India--an iron monument that has resisted rusting for hundreds of years.
I think it's likely that the ancients put some vinegar in this metal container, discovered that it corroded badly, and threw it away.
Of course we can't rule out that they knew something about electricity, but I think we need some clay tablets describing the use of electric devices to confirm it before we can say "ancient battery" with confidence.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
It can't be!! It is!!
Its a precious Rimbaldi artifact. Its part of a weapon! Send in Jennifer Garner and the CIA goon squad. A little spandex, a red wig, and it will be ours!
anything i tell you will cloud your opinion.
Let it go.....
So that's how Junis was powering his C-64...
This article would have been a lot more interesting if the reporter hadn't of drug his politics into the article. The fact that batteries were being made 2,200 years ago is cool is hell and stands alone as an article. But the reporter insisted on speculating about the war and what it could possibly do, blah, blah, blah. Please, stick to the facts. They are far more interesting.
And the Greeks kept electric eels in big wading pools and would walk into the water and get zapped. It doesn't mean they knew what electricity was; they just knew it felt cool to get a mild shock.
I don't see how they can assume these are batteries when there is no evidence of wires or mechanical devices that would use the electricity.
A few months ago I saw something on the Discovery Channel talking about all of this. They found similar things (bowls/pots with acid in them) in South America too. They said all of these most likely were for magical purposes (cool shock or possibly even coating/electro-plating jewelry), but not batteries.
Karma: NaN
1) This artifact and the rest of the Museum of Baghdad will be completely untouched by any US miltary action. (What Saddam does is another matter.)
2) We will never hear another word on this subject from the BBC or anyone else.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Never mind that since History endlessly repeats itself, technology gets discovered, forgotten and discovered again...
It's not because people worship Pazuzu instead of Jesus H. Fucking Christ (you know, the god that got nailed) that they are stupid...
Noone wasted time worrying about the art and archaeological treasures in Holland, France or Germany when they liberated Europe from Hitler.
With todays much more precise technology, it's unlikely that archaeological sites would be affected at all.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I have a 5000 year old generator and a 3000 year old television...
Hot or Not Babes
News, ALL the frigin time
My family has tried for generations upon generations to keep this sacred battery safe from the clutches of simple men. Now, all is lost. I wonder if I can get rid of this stupid pink bunny birthmark on my ass...
I also reply below your current threshold.
It's funny that you mention this... given that FRANCE HAS HUGE OIL INTERESTS IN IRAQ. Do you need me to repeat that. I said FRANCE HAS HUGE OIL INTERESTS IN IRAQ. In fact, you might say that their opposition to the war is due them losing $Billions in oil investments. Of course they would have you believe otherwise, and it isn't being widely reporting, since the media is anti-war. But check it out--it's true.
Besides, if the US really wanted Iraqi oil, they could just lift the trade embargos. Much, much simpler, a lot less costly, and bloodless.
This "its all about oil" argument is a complete liberal cop-out. They can't come up with a real argument so they say it's all about oil. Equivalent to name-calling.
Dear Iraq,
Please move your national treasures and priceless artifacts from all likely bombing areas. Don't worry about moving troops or weaponry, they are fine where they are.
Thanks,
USA
as well as the Conspiracy nut in me wonders if this IS the reason we're going to war; to hide this and other archeological finds in the area where civilization on a human scale first began...but then again, I could be wrong.
This is the first war ever fought in the region in the last 2,000 years? Were people concerned about artifacts when Iran and Iraq were blowing the crap out of each other? Were people concerned when Saddam was constructing enormous builings for his personal use?
Perspective... It's not just for breakfast anymore.
No sig, sorry.
The war is about oil right? As always Bush wants to capitalize on his own oil business and such. So where does this battery come in? It's obvious Saddam is working on alternative power sources!! Bush is scared shitless that Iraq will harness clean, plentiful energy and begin exporting these advanced clay pot fuelcells!
If only the wise and intelligent people who invented that battery were running Iraq right now. But, like nerds in high school, these people are too easily disposed of.
The acient art of glassworking was lost and rediscovered. Embalming was lost and rediscovered. The number zero disappeared, and was reinvented. Maybe the battery wasn't used to its full potental, but there are lots of fun and interesting things batteries can do, and I see no reason why someone acient person accidently discovered electricity, and then used it for entertainment, or starting fires.
~~~
Click here, you know you wanna!
How much German, Japanese, and European history was destroyed in the early 20th century? Is history more important than the present? I believe there was a quote, maybe from Tokien, which said something about the folly of being more proud of who your ancestors were than who your children are. Some countries are willing to trade the freedom and safety of their children to preserve the memory of their ancestors. France did it in the early 20th, and they are apparently willing to do it again today. I, personally, don't have much respect for this type of elitist cowardice. If the destruction of a pottery battery will save a couple hundred Iraqi civilians from being detained, thrown in jail, and tortured, it's worth it.
Public use of any portable music system is a virtually guaranteed indicator of sociopathic tendencies. -- Zoso
Innovative.
Here everyone was wringing their hands at the potential for Saddam Hussein to use Iraqi civilians as "human shields" in the event of U.S. attack.
Now we're moving on to "archeological shields", as if prospect of humans casualities weren't enough.
[I'd say the U.S. mistimed its Afghanistan venture, though, since the Taliban had enough time to actively seek out and destroy that giant Buddha relic.]
"Provided by the management for your protection."
To say oh we cant go to war because there might be some artifacts that will be destroyed by it. Is pritty lame reasioning because these artificats have been around durring a lot more war then we will go thew in our lives. That area of the world is basicly War Central and has been sience before these artificats were created. So if dont go to war what will stop these people from testing their weapons and distroying these artifacts themselfs when testing their own armament. Or just by digging holes to hide there ileagal stuff.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
..they mention "Hero's engine"
Wasn't the guy named Heron? The same guy with the nifty formula for getting the area of any triangle by just knowing the length of the sides?
Let s be the sum of the sides a,b and c divided by two
s=(a+b+c+)/2
The area T of the triangle is then:
T=(s(s-a)(s-b)(s-c))^1/2
Can't say I can trust a scientific article that doesn't even get the names right.
"GNU's not Unix....it's Linux" / Kami "kokamomi" Petersen
[Dr Craddock] suggests a cluster of the batteries, connected in parallel, may have been hidden inside a metal statue or idol.
He thinks that anyone touching this statue may have received a tiny but noticeable electric shock...
Now, That's What I Call Entertainment!
Let's install these in some of the more fundamentalist places of worship.
I'm not really a web designer, I just play one on the Internet.
If Iraq cared so much about it's battery then it would
1. Disarm and get rid of it's weapons, as has been demanded by the US and the UN
2. Stop supporting Osama bin Laden and terrorism in general
3. Stop gassing it's own citizens
4. Stop threatening it's neighbors and attacking Israel by funding suicide bombers
5. Go to a democratic society as reasonable world standards dictate
6. Stop pursueing nuclear weapons to launch at the US and Israel
If Iraq does not do this then anything that happens to it is it's OWN fault, not the fault of the United States. My God I see people here that apparently value some old battery more than the twin towers. Never for get 9/11 and never let the bastards win. There is no prize for second place in this war.
Some would say it's not.
and those people we would call weak-willed moral relativists.
If it's important enough to start a war (or, more precisely, continue a war, since Iraq is violating the cease fire agreement of the gulf war), then an ancient artifact is certainly acceptable collateral damage.
You may disagree wether or not we should invade Iraq, but the decision is not made lightly. The importance of an (already studied) artifact is irrelevant in comparison.
Moreover, It takes courage to advocate and perform an unpleasent but neccessary action. It takes none at all to come out in favor of puppies and kittens, children playing in the sun, and M-16 barrels being used to hold flowers.
Guess what? Bush, Rumsfield, Powell, and Blair value those things to. But these things will not happen in Iraq, or the middle east, by simply wishing them into existence.
Unless, of course, you believe that Saddam only poses a threat to his own people, so why should we care?
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
To everyone who thinks the wars is all about oil--it is, to France. FRANCE HAS HUGE OIL INTERESTS IN IRAQ. Do you need me to repeat that? I said FRANCE HAS HUGE OIL INTERESTS IN IRAQ. In fact, you might say that their opposition to the war is solely due them potentially losing $Billions in oil investments. Of course they would have you believe otherwise, and it isn't being widely reporting, since the media is anti-war. But check it out--it's true.
Besides, if the US really wanted Iraqi oil for cheap, they could just lift the trade embargos. Much, much simpler, a lot less costly, and bloodless.
This "it's all about oil" argument is a complete liberal cop-out. They can't come up with a real argument so they say it's all about oil. Equivalent to name-calling.
FEISAL: And I must do it because the Turks have European guns, but I fear to do it; upon my soul, I do. The English have a great hunger for desolate places. I fear they hunger for Arabia. LAWRENCE: Then you must deny it to them. FEISAL: You are an Englishman. Are you not loyal to England? LAWRENCE: To England and to other things. FEISAL: To England and Arabia, both? And is that possible? I think you are another of these desert-loving English. Gordon of Khartoum. No Arab loves the desert. We love water and green trees. There's nothing in the desert. No man needs nothing. Or is it that you think we are something you can play with? Because we are little people; a silly people; greedy, and barbarous, and cruel. Do you know, Lieutenant, in the Arab city of Cordoba were two miles of public lighting in the streets when London was a village?
* a merry live and a short one
People with Religion kill Science. Ask any Ph.D. who has been ousted from Bush II's science councils in favor of a wild-eyed Methodist preacher.
Many great scientists/philosphers/astronomers have come from the Arab world; indeed, I'd have a hard time doing binary without the handy '0' they gave us (ever wonder why our numeric system is called 'Arabic', not 'Roman'?) Even the algebra (al-jabr) is a product of an enlightened Muslim civilization.
"Praise God, and Pass the Ammo!" Idiots.
Similarily, when the Taleban was destroying ancient Buddha's should this have been a reason to invade all by itself?
I hate how every news article has to somehow relate to the cause of the day ...
Well, of course since the overwhelming evidence condems Saddam, the liberal - kook- Democracts and others (BBC-French-German) have to make up other stories to prevent war because they don't want us in there to discover how much those countries were helping Saddam build this shit.
-------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. --Ozzy
Just because they were ONCE a great and mighty civilization does not justify allowing them to contimue down they path they are today.
Maybe, just maybe, if they tried contributing more to mankind then terror and oppression, they wouldn't be facing what they are today.
But then again, maybe not risking the first battery is more important than ridding the world of a menace and a tyrant.
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
The first casualty of war is truth, but that truth may exist in many forms.
One has to wonder how many wars have destroyed vital technologies and pieces of history.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
Sounds suspiciously like something Erich Von Däniken would have forged.... Chuck "Results! Why, man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work." T.A. Edison
To argue that a war should or should not be fought based on possible damage to historic artifacts is foolish. While such damage is a tragedy, it is nothing to the loss of human life. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the life of the night watchman at an archeological site than all the artifacts buried there.
You can argue whether war with Iraq is justified, whether it will (or will not) in the long run save more lives than it will take. You can argue about the U.S. motives for the war or any of a thousand other things, but the decision to go to war or not should have nothing to do with a people's historic contributions or lack thereof. While the preservation of artifacts should enter the discussion about how to prosecute a war (i.e. don't intentionally shell that museum), it is today's people that should be the concern - Iraqis, their neighbors, and the rest of the world community.
Everything else - ancient batteries or modern oilfields - they're just things.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Hitler had already liberated said artifacts.
WHO? 'Scuse me, but there is a big wide world outside of America. Kindly don't be so parochial.
those artifacts are going to be destroyed by the arrogant, oppressive and foolish actions of Saddam.
You know he does not have to keep picking fights while keeping his thumb on his own people.
This is nothing but lip service to those that believe that war is not the answer to this. I don't want the war or its costs either, but I also am tired of Saddam.
Choices, choices....
Blogging because I can...
I can't believe that this was moderated as a troll. It's 100% true!!! For the all the bitching about censorship that Slashdotters do, you think they would be a little more liberal when it comes to their own opinions. But nope, an alternative viewpoint comes along and poof! It's censored!!!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Or, more to the point, apparently nobody cared enough to go check it out after Desert Storm.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Let's just forget about the past 30-50 years where the entire region has been going between war with Iran and war with itself. Those wouldn't have damaged any artifacts.
I'm also sure Iraqis thoroughly check sites before they drill for oil or build "factories."
Geee, and all this time I thought it was some americans that figured out electricity...
rewritting history.....??? Or defending the history currently written?
How importanmt are these artifacts again?
Don't confuse anti-Bush administration, anti-war or anti-hypocrisy for anti-americanism. The are distinctly different. I'm not anti-american, but I am anti-war and I was on that march in London. And don't go confusing anti-war with pro-saddam either.
So maybe they should be completely "unbiased" like the Rupert Murdoch controlled media channels?
They dont mention that one Saddam's pet projects is removing any trace that any religious belief other than Islam ever existed in the region.
That means destroying any and all artifacts that point to any other belief system ever preceding them.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
So, presumably, the US patent office (which, as we all know, will have properly researched for prior art) will grant Saddam a patent tomorrow on batteries & electroplating.
That will somewhat put a block on Bush's war mongering when Saddam doesn't grant licenses.
..don't you think it will survive another?
We won't be using cruise missiles on MUSEUMS, after all.
The latest Slashdot meme.
Come on! Batteries are meant to be thrown away. And if it's so oldd it's bound to be leaking and useless, so chuck it out please!
-- Cheers!
This must be the most pathetic anti-war stretch to date.
We must stand by and permit the torture and murder of unknown tens of thousands of Iraqis by the Hussein regime, and condemn an entire generation of Iraqis to lifelong misery and terror, because the alternative has the remote chance of destroying an ancient battery!
The priorities of the author are certainly on display.
French fries indeed!
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Apprentice - "Look, master, I have invented what I shall call THE BATTERY"
Master - "And what is that battery of yours, young apprentice?"
Apprentice - "It produces electricity, master!"
Master - "And what does this electricity you talk about do?"
Apprentice - "Well, um... nothing really right now, but I'm sure that in a few centuries..."
Master - "You know, I think that wheel thing you came up with last week might be slightly more useful right now... and stop wasting our precious vinegar!"
The French are trying to protect Saddam because of the interests of the French oil companies, owned by the French government.
bullshit!
if it was the case, he would have first removing his prime minister (Tarek Aziz is christian)
again, Irak is not Saudi Arabia!
It would almost certainly have been used at full potential as it is unlikely that they had invented voltage regulaters.
All my previous sigs now look like this one, I wish they were permanetly recorded when used.
As a dove, I'm concerned about American lives-- this strategy of preemption will not result in a safer world. Even if the war itself is bloodless, the occupation will not be.
Now go home before you get the newspaper.
Game, set and match.
Score one for the guy with the mirror who's not afraid to look in it.
Since you seem to be a "it's online - it has to be true" guy here is a link: USA: US Begins Secret Talks to Secure Iraq's Oilfields
There are far to many bits of that article to quote so I really hope you read it through. It is also said (although not mentioned in the article) that it's also already decided which foreign companies are going to control the oil "of the iraqui people". Dig the net, find out.
By the way, did you hear about the US plan of protecting hospitals and schools and historical artifacts in Iraq? Me neither!
Cheers
$HOME is where the
-- silver_p
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
People keep implying that there is an inherent infinite value in human life. "The life of the night watchman is more important than all of the artifacts in the museum." I hate being the one to tell you this, but human life is not magically special, above all else in this world. My life and your life are not more important than the pursuit of knowledge.
Sure, I would rather destroy an old artifact than be destroyed myself. However, there comes a point at which the benefit of society outweighs the harm to an individual. Let's pretend that deep in the basement of an Iraqi museum lies an undiscovered bacterium that miraculously cures HIV, and there is one night watchman guarding the museum. The US accidentally bombs that museum, vaporizing everything contained therein, including the watchman and the bacteria. Which is a worse loss?
I don't have a rational answer to that question, but I know that, were I that watchman, I would gladly sacrifice my life to prevent the destruction of the museum. And you could make the argument that saving the bacteria would save more human lives. That is a valid argument, but how do we know that we are not destroying a similarly precious discovery when we destroy priceless relics from the past.
This battery will probably not benefit humanity much, but this is why many people devote their entire lives to the pursuit of knowledge.
Here: http://www.policyreview.org/summer93/cheney.html
Excerpting:
Policy Review: It is now two years after the spectacular victory of the United States and its allies in Desert Storm. What objectives were achieved during this war?
Cheney: The best way to evaluate Desert Storm is to consider what the world would be like today if we hadn't fought and won this war. If we had taken a pass on Saddam's occupation of Kuwait, by today he would have the eastern province of Saudi Arabia and would sit astride about 50 percent of the world's oil reserves, which he could control directly when you add up Kuwaiti, Saudi, and Iraqi oil reserves. He'd be able to dominate the rest of the reserves in the Persian Gulf. And he'd have nuclear weapons. We had to stop this from happening. And we did.
--
Notice how the nukes are clearly a secondary consideration.
--
P.R.: You got out of Iraq without going all the way to Baghdad. Are you worried that Saddam Hussein is still in power today?
Cheney: I'd rather he were not in power, but I don't see him at this point as a threat to any of his neighbors. In that part of the world, I'm more concerned about Iran. Saddam is unable to sell oil; without selling oil, he can't generate the revenue he needs to rebuild that military machine we destroyed. The Iranians aren't faced with that situation; they have access to the world's markets, they are selling oil, and they are using some of that revenue to regenerate their forces and expand their capabilities. For example, they're buying diesel-powered submarines and MiG-29s from the Russians.
--
Nah, can't be about the oil.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
I can't believe an article from 2,200 years ago is still readable now, and surely the BBC should hand it over to a museum
Powered by onion juice.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
They certainly use it to power their missile guidance systems.
What more proofs do we need ?
We must attack ! Remember The Maine^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H9/11 !
Nothing in the article or the submission is critical of your proposed moral war or your distinguished president. The knee-jerk shouting down of dissenting voices is not warranted here. However, your patriotism has been noted. You make Baby Jesus proud.
How could ancient Arabic science have grasped the principles of electricity and arrived at this knowledge? Seems the author was totally clueless about ancient history as Sassanian and Parthians had notthing to do with "ancient Arabic" but were Persian (yeah, number 3 in the axis of evil!)
The UN isn't doing shit. The UN has never done shit. The UN will never do shit.
The UN is a joke.
And you've got some wrong-ass ideas about war. What if we'd stayed out of WWII? Oh yeah, that's right, you probably hate Jews too, so it's ok if they'd all gotten killed in death camps. It'd be ok if Germany walked all over Poland and Czechoslovakia and Russia, killing people by the millions, as long as no American boys took a bullet. As long as we avoided war *at all costs*.
And what then? What then, after Germany won the continent? Hitler had aspirations of world conquest. You think he would have left us alone? Shit.
The US is going to remove Saddam from power to prevent him from gaining access to nuclear weapons. He's already gassed his own people to death, the chance of him using a nuke is high. And whether he uses it on his own people, or on the US, or on Israel, or on anyone else in the world, it would still be worse than any war.
Off the top of my head...
- Pol Pot - Cambodia (executed almost 25% of the population of his country)
- Castro - Cuba
- Stalin - USSR
- Idi Amin - Uganda (OMG...killed 300k of his own people)...hiding out in Saudi Arabia now
- Franco - Spain (killed over 10k political opponents but many were communists so it was okay)
- Pinnochet - Chile (installed by CIA, thousands tortured, executed, or simply disappeared)
While I believe Saddam is a "bad man" the fact that he's "killed his own people" seems to not justify pre-emptive and unilateral military action by the U.S. if we look at it historically.Hell, what's the difference between pulling out a 10 year old photograph of a lifeless child from the use of poison gas by Saddam vs a 30 year old photograph of a child running down a road with her skin hanging off her body like tattered rags as a result of a "chemical" bomb dropped during the Nixon administration?
Also, this comparison to Hitler is getting a bit tired. Hitler was aggressively invading neighboring countries of our Allies whereas Iraq has briefly occupied one country in the past 20 years if you ignore the incursions between Iran & Iraq during the 80's.
Give it a rest...
Interesting, but why not just open a thread entitled "OK, let's cut the crap. What are the arguments for and against invading Iraq," or something to that effect. At very least, I suspect it will get one of the highest post rates in Slashdot history.
As to the Baghdad Batteries, the final quote is excellent:
Let's hope the world manages to resolve its present problems so people can go and see them.
Dr Paul Craddock
I can think of better reasons to avoid war, but what the hell.
It is truly amazing what technology existed far before previously preconceived notions. It's a shame there is not much indication as to what the Battery was used for but the article has some interesting hypophysis on that. I personaly like the one about the Tingling idols.
http://www.englishfirst.org
I agree partly with the statement that human life is allways more important BUT, iraq is somehow of the mother of all archeologicall sites....
My friend, most of the bible's stories has iraq as a background. Not only writing, but navigation, maps, law.... a large host of things where made in the area.
So lets gravitate to the middle, we can agree that war is allways a pitifull, incredibly animal and uncivilized thing.
We can agree that human life is more important than any piece of clay.
We can agree that iraq is one of the most important and amazing sites. The origin of western civilization.
So now, should america nuke it?
So now, should iraq nuke anyone else?
So now, should israel nuke iraq?
Is any of this justified over some oil, saddam's manhood (or lack thereoff), religious and nationalistic (practically fascist) arab feelings?
No, No No No.... im tired of all... im tired of germanies, france, russia hipocresy (they have allways been ruthless with their colonies, murderers as any powerfull nation).
Im tired of the US allways protecting the interest of the incredebly pitifull american "culture". Fucking bunch of barbarians that, come on, drool over fucking pecan pie or big-macs (that says a lot about a country).
Im tired of the damned arabs with their cocky attitude, thinking the truth is what they hold when mostly they arent even refering to the profets words, but to their own bloody local traditions (look up what the q'ran of omar says, versus to what the rest of the books say....the qran is pretty peacefull, the rest of the stories are bloody shows of animality and disgrace).
Humanity is inexistant, we are all sick, noone has the moral pull to convince anyone. All have ulterior motives, and yet, they will decide....i just hope an asteroid fucks us up before we do.
And there..... we are back to where we started.
NO SIG
Damn those pesky terrorists
This can only mean that they perfected wireless technology. A bunch of l33t g33ks they were, if you ask me.
I thought a 'battery' was a group of 'cells'.
now go run before I get the newspaper out on you.
More precise technology?
"could be threatened by the impending war"
As opposed to the wars that they have been fighting on and off for decades?
moo.
Wow! what a coalition.
Say again, how many of this pimp nations will be actually spending a penny or sending a marine on the war vs Iraq?
My other OS is the MCP!
Whoa! Damn! This dude is on to something! Wow, he must watch Fox TV or read Newsweek, those bastions of pacifism and respect for international law!
I am humbled by such an acute insight, such pithy observation. I would never have noticed by merely reading or watching "the media." Thank God Anonymous Coward has opened my eyes to the truth!
And while you're at it, tell me why Sadam needs to be off the country, if not for US control of oil. US don't need oil from Iraq, they get most of theirs from Venezuela and Kuwait (you didn't believe the USA helped kuwait out of good will back in '91, do you?). It's not about getting oil, it's about CONTROLLING oil.
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
Under the right circumstances, ordinary pieces of metal (like plumbing) exposed to acid can make "batteries" by chance. More intriguing is the "un batteried" iron obelisk I recall hearing about in India--an iron monument that has resisted rusting for hundreds of years.
... the secret seems to have died with the makers.
That is very interesting in its own right. However,
I think it's likely that the ancients put some vinegar in this metal container, discovered that it corroded badly, and threw it away.
They've found at least 12 such primative batteries, so unless they were throwing away a bunch of defecting jars that all mysteriously resembled batteries far more closely than simple storage jugs, I think the idea that they suffered a little accidental corrosion and threw it away is rather unlikely.
Virtually everyone believes these were primitive batteries, and used as such, but not to drive bronze age equivelent walkmans or the like. Rather, some believe it may have been to imbibe idols with magical "shocking" capabilities to lend credence to local religious cults, an invention that occurred likely by accident, reproduced by trial and error, and then applied (secretively) by the priests of Baal (or whatever cult was popular at the time) as a way to convice people of the divinity of their statue.
That they were batteries designed to deliver a low amperage, fairly low voltage electrical current is pretty widely accepted. Why they were made, and what they were used for, is really anybody's guess at this point
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
The US and Russia created the monster that is Saddam. Is the US and Russia blameless in the attrocities commited by Iraq's nut case dictator? Hell no. Before people start yapping off about how Saddam needs a butt kicking, they should also be the first in line to volunteer 20 years of their life repaying the people of Iraq for placing a nut case in power. If you're too damn lazy to go learn about history and get a clearer picture of how we got to the current sad state of international affairs, you're vote shouldn't count. A democracy made up ignorant self-righteous fascist shouldn't be using Morality as the reason for war. Go and read history people!
It is bizarre reading these posts and seeing people quote as fact the propaganda of the American government and media.
That the American public is completely unfamiliar with the modern history of Iraq and with their own government's history of creating instablity in the region is quite shocking. I think it's the reason why Americans swallow whole the misinformation and outright lies spoon fed to them by their media and politicians.
After WWII and continuing today, the UN mandates the teaching of the Nazi era to all German school children at all levels, in an attempt to ensure that Germans cannot hide from the legacy of the last world conflict.
I think that a similar UN mandate is warranted here. The uninformed/misinformed American public are creating real difficulties for the world by supporting extremist politicians in their government. I would like to see the U.N. step in and make an effort to teach American school children some basic facts about life outside the U.S. and the long history of America's damage to the wider world. Such an effort might go a long way towards helping Americans learn to behave in a civilised manner both as individuals and as a society.
American media (which we see here in Britain) is absolutely shocking. The only examples of blatant propaganda that come even close to it are Stalinst-era Soviet broadcasts and the works of Goebels in Nazi Germany.
It would be too much to ask that the power structures behind the American media begin to show Americans the truth, but perhaps with a U.N. education effort for young Americans they will become less susceptible to the lies that they are force-fed and gleefully regurgitate here in such a repugnantly belligerent manner.
I agree. The risks of potentially hurting the gutenberg press were much higher than freeing millions under naziism. We should have stayed in bed, or just rolled over like the french.
The artifacts will just be lost once more as they were thousands of years ago, only to be dug up again in the future when they're worth even more.
I read some where (forget where) that some archeologists see part of their job as educating the public about human history in the hopes that people will act more civilized. If more people appreciated and explored other cultures, there would be far less physical conflicts. Have we already forgotten WWI, WWII, Crusades and hundreds of wars before that? Are leaders like Saddam, Bush and numerous other so dumb and egotistic to see that cooperation is the key to longivity. Have anyone of them studied game and economic theory, like zero sub?
Sanctions have already killed millions of Iraqis from maulnutrition and lack of medicine. Millions of others, are now dying from cancer do to Americas use of hundreds of thousands of depleted uranium rounds during GW1 which will continue to irradiate the area for the next 4 billion years. Millions of others are dying because the water treatment facilities were destroyed by America during GW1. Millions of others are dying because hospitals have no electricity to make oxygen. Before GW1 the biggest health problem for children was obesity. Now 10,000 of them die every month.
So stop pretending that you give a fuck about millions of Iraqis. You're not fooling anyone.
..all the PETA freaks would be out protesting war too.
The United States is getting less and less of it's oil from the Persian Gulf, but Europe, Korea and Japan still get much of thier oil from the Gulf.
Iraq in 1980 attempted to take control of Iran's oil which spiked oil prices around the world and messed with the Asian and American economies. In the mid 1980s Iran and Iraq started targeting oil tankers (Iran went after Kuwait and Iraqs, Iraq after Irans) which also spiked oil prices for a time. In 1990 Iraq took Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia with invasion, which spiked oil prices. In 1991 Iraq set fire to nearly 1000 oil wells and spilled millions of barrels of oil into the Persian Gulf in an attempt to destroy the desal plants in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.
So it can easily be argued that in this case regional stability and oil are about the National Security of the United States.
Even if the United States was getting a tiny amount of oil from the Gulf, Japan and Koreas dependance on this oil and the damage to thier economy from Iraqi attacks in the Gulf would make it in the United States national interest to remove an unstable leadership from Iraq.
Japan's movement towards Australia in the Second World War didn't threaten the United States directly but it was in our national interest to support them.
the quote that you pasted is a standard polititian answer. Later inte the article (or was it earlyer) there is a similar answer to another question. That's standard behaviour and tells you there's someone told them what to say and not to deviate from it.
The US doesn't control german or french assets _litteraly_. But they (actualy the corporations backed by the government) have a lot to say in the global market. They put a lot of pressure on other governments and companies wich practicaly _is_ to control them. I guess it's ok if it would be a two-way thing, but it's not. Do you remeber the steelindustry "support" given by Bush in a matter that kills what the US som mutch fights for - free trade. That's just one example of how much real influence the US (gov and corporations) has. So they don't have to 0wn anything or "put up a flag and start bussiness". In conclusion, look for comanies, not governmental organs practicing pressure/power. it's not that evident at first, but you will start seeing the pattern.And I really don't believe Saddam has any plan to protect anyone elses but his own skin (and maybe his closest relatives). I'm not a Saddam supporter! He is a warmonger as good as they come, but so is his cousin the empty warhead G Dubya Bush.
I'm too tired and busy to continue this discussione but if you insist.. ;)
Cheers!
$HOME is where the
-- silver_p
I would expect nothing more than a story like this from the bbc, they are known for their liberal reporting. I wouldnt be suprised if they came out and said saddamn hussein himself shits out gold nuggets.
People die. You know this. People die. People die all the time. It's part of the great game called life.
More people die and will die by other causes (such as road traffic accidents) in the USA this month than in all the terrorist attacks on the USA ever.
When people die civilisations move on. They evolve.
Civilisations need history and artifacts to survive... otherwise they die.
If you destory the literature and the history and the libraries and the museums and all the archelogical evidence to remove just one tyrant from power then you are losing.
In one hundred years we will all be dead (baring a miracle) and Saddam Hussein will be as distant a memory and as relevant to our descendants as Napolean or Kubla Khan are to most of us now.
Yet the "battery" will be AS relevant to our descendants as it is to us. A look back into the past and a glimpse of the ancients, their lives and civilisations... and a definite reason to look forward into the future.
cheers
front
If the so-called battery is destroyed, who is to blame? I say the ones who caused the war. And that would be . . . . . SADDAM!
I remember watching some show where they discovered a compass that was powered by a piece of copper submerged in grapejuice and, on this show, was touted as being the world's first electric battery.
The dang arabs prolly stole that thing from them Greeks!
...spike
Ewwwwww, coconut...
Yea, what do we care what happens to a bunch of non-white people. And you can't compare Bush's Iraq to Clinton's Bosnia. Bosnia wasn't a threat to the US but the Bosnians were white therefore worth sending a military in to free. Iraqis aren't worth the lives of our US military men and women. You tell 'em phutureboy! Put that ban on sending in the military to protect the lives of those with tan!
By the way, what detergent do you use to get the stains out of your sheet?
What does this say about intellectual property? If the batteries were used for electroplating (one possibility) people kept them and there principal secret so that they could profit from them. Likewise , Hero's engine also mentioned in the article.
If the principle and functioning of these batteries and the steam engine had been studied and the knowledge shared, as such things were in the 18th and 19th centuries, science and the industrial revolution could have started around 200 BC.
The patent system was meant to encourage such sharing but it seems that it is helping to keep ideas and methods away from the public instead.
I remember Wheel lets you build chariots, and writing lets you build the library to increase science output, but I don't remember there even being a battery advance for back then.
Yeah, big mistake *(not your fault, the propaganda is really thick right now, it could happen to anyone who doesnt pay attention)
You (humorlessly) wrote:
Dear Saddam,
We assisted you in defeating a common enemy. In the hopes that you would see the light, and become a productive member of the world community. This you have not done. You continued in your hopes of Middle Eastern domination, and were found guilty by the United Nations. You have repeatedly violated the terms of your parole, and are now being brought to task.
However, if you feel tough enough, try it. But do it as a man. Do not hide behind civilians, artifacts, or other non combatant entities. Bring your forces out to play openly. Don't hide your AAA in schoolyards. Don't park your tanks in suburban neighborhoods. You play nice, and we'll play nice.
Come out of your bunker and lead your troops. It will make the whole process much easier on everyone involved, especially your people.
Ever yours,
The Rest of the World.
So that last bit should read:
Ever yours,
The American Empire(tm) (A tiny little division of the British one)
Correct that little number and we'll be all set.
Let's not forget the United States's constant and abiding torture and harassment of Weed dealers... By placing them in prison for long periods, seizing their assets, and levying large fines against them.
Let the torture end... let freedom ring...!
if you think the batteries are impressive, you should see the ancient walkman
in ancient greece, a dude invented the steam enguine, well actualy, a metal sphear that held water and had 2 exit pipes pointing in oposit directions and then it was placed on a rod so when the water boiled and the steem released the spear would spin at a high rate of speed (it was an experiment to proove things can be moved with out human's touching them. he also invented a few other minor things so that if he had put them together and tried to come up with a way to use them together, the industrical revolution could have started back then!!
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
The Learning Channel did a very nice special about this last year. An archeologist cross referenced the Hebrew garden/creation story of Eden with material from the Sumarian mythical Edin. Moden Iranians have turned the place into a dump, but if you move up into the surrounding mountains it it beautiful.
There's a saying around the Middle East that goes something along the lines of:
"They write the books in Egypt, print the books in Syria and read the books in Iraq."
Anytime you see a word that begins with al such as algebra or algorithm, you know where it's from..
-- jimmycarter
I feel the need to invoke Godwin's Law.
"Most sources date the batteries to around 200 BC - in the Parthian era, circa 250 BC to AD 225. Skilled warriors, the Parthians were not noted for their scientific achievements."
Warriors made it, huh? How ironic.
-- Boycott Shell
Oh NO!
Greenpeace will attack Iraq.
"The article talks about how this priceless artifact as well as many others, from the same civilisation that invented writing and the wheel, could be threatened by the impending war."
I believe I've heard of a civilization with written texts (The Vedas) more than 6000+ years old. The Hindu civilization in India.
-Shaunak.
probably got stranded in 200BC and was trying to charge his GBA batteries... ~SL
And of course, you are of the authority to determine whether my life is equal to that of a few hundred people or some bacteria. Sorry, but my life is worth a billion or so people. So is yours.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
One rather interesting use for the batteries: Electroplating gold or silver onto base metals such as lead. This would be the next best thing to the legendary philosopher's stone, and one can imagine ancient Iraqi traders raking in a fortune selling gold plated leaden objects to unsuspecting buyers.
My rights don't need management.
Israel ? And what was Donald "lets invade" Rumsfelds job during the 80s... err selling chemicals to Sadam.
We know, beyond any reasonable doubt that the US has helped Israel get WMD, we also know its sold them to Britain as well.
So there are two official cases where it has happened. And officially the US and Britain supplied billions of dollars of arms equipment to Iraq during the Iran v Iraq war.
What else do we know
1) CIA trained Bin Laden and many people in Afghanistan against the USSR, many of these became the Taliban.
2) The US supplied weapons to terrorists in the Iran/Contra scandal.
So yes, apart from these cases and lots more there is no evidence at all to say that the US has potentially the dirtiest hands on the block.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I wish I could moderate article submissions. How can this wrtieup possibly lead to actual discussion? It seems like it was written to inspire the political baiting that is passing for a discussion in this thread...
If you were an Oil man and say it cost you $14 to produce a barrel of Oil which would you prefer
1) Cheap Oil that is sold at $20 a barrel
or
2) Expensive Oil that is sold at $80 a barrel.
Now simple me says that an Oil man would prefer 2.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
point.
Iraqi army -- CHARGE!
(ducks)
Instead of using 1000 bombs to take out a particular military target, we now try to only use 1.
That is considerably more precise. It also avoids most of the casualties associated with a modern European style war.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Hmmm, do Nuclear, Chemical and Biological weapons help preserve these artifacts for future civilizations to enjoy? The lesson here is that once a civilization existed there that could do more than just simply murder each other and anyone else they didn't like the look of. Lets all abandon reason for some trinkets... after all when someone is coughing up a lung they will smile and say, "Yes we are all dying horribly and my children are all dead... but archeology is worth it"
It is bizarre reading these posts and seeing people quote as fact the propaganda of the American government and media.
What is truely bizarre is that you manage to write so much, but give no examples of this propaganda. While I agree with you that the American media has a tendancy not to question statements by American leadership, this post is another example of ignorance (and arrogance?) toward American media and Americans in general.
The real tragedy here is that many Europeans truely believe that America is a country filled with mindless drones who believe everything they read and that everything they read is a lie. This is simply not true.
Many Americans have differing beliefs, and many (american) media outlets do reflect this heterogenecity. Examples include the 100,000+ people that marched in San Francisco against military action in Iraq. Or last night, Dan Rather's interview with Saddam Hussein. Do you think the Bush administration wanted that aired? Many newspapers have written in editorial pages reservations about the Bush administration stance. Ignorance is everywhere, and perhaps that smell is coming from your own back yard and not your short wave radio...
-Sean
Remember clipping the terminals of lots of 9V batteries together in series. That gave a VERY noticable shock. I doubt these would have thrown a spark though but it would be feelable with sweaty fingers if they connected them in series..
Eat at Joe's.
I know it is a bit of old news, however I have several pictures available for you to see. That url also includes video: here.
... but it is now.
(Sorry, it requires quicktime due to the format of the digital camera. Also, I couldn't hyperlink the movie for some reason) of the scene.
I am also hosting an short video of an independant journalist interviewing the types of individuals that attend these protests. The quicktime video can be seen here
Your best bet to download those is to right-click and save.
Now, I'm sure I will be modded down for this since most of the posts here are liberal and anti-war, however the last film reinforces my opinion of the anti-war individuals roaming this country. Obviously no one wants war or people to die, however these protestors simply do not have a full grasp of the situation at hand.
Recently Janeane Garofalo said it best "It wasn't hip to protest during the Clinton administration"
--I love this stuff, just love it. Ancient artifacts that suggest a much more advanced civilization than what mainstream scientists will admit to. The funny part is, it really DOES blow a lot of the current accepted beliefs. There's another one you can find with a google, and that's the evidence in india of a long ago past nuclear war.
You know that scene in the indiana jones movie where the ark of the covenant gets wheeleed into a huge gov warehouse to be forgotten about? I believe it! I think they do stuff like that when they can get away with it and when embarassing stuff shows up! Ha!
It ~is~ about the oil, but not how most people think. Bush doesn't want the Iraqi oil, he wants to keep the oil prices high, so his friends in the oil industry can benefit. He doesn't even need to go to war; the prices are already artificially high. We'll know for sure in a year or five, when Bush is no longer president and takes a nice position in the oil industry, like Cheney did after his governmental service. I don't know this for sure, of course, I am just judging by Bush's actions. Who am I to know the mind of Bush?
They should dig through their old military warehouses and get the ark of the covernant that Indiana Jones got for em back in the 1930s. As long as the US troops didn't look at it, legions of tormented ghosts would melt the Iraqi's eyeballs without damaging any artifacts at all.
Eat at Joe's.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Would evil men kill for absolute power?
The US is crooked, any and all ideals you hold true as an american citizen are being used to control you. You are a pawn and a slave, you are not free. Until you open your eyes, you are blind.
This battery, as well as many other things were found in locations that were known to be occupied by shamen/medicine men of the time. It is believed they used these very small currents to reduce some of the muscular pain of their patients, much as doctors would use it today on athletes and such.
This goes on to my point. A lot of these technologies did exist, but until civilization got to the right state of mind as to how to use it (i.e., Renaissance, Scientific/Industrial Revolution), these "hi-tech" items were nothing more than knick-knacks.
You know I just replied to another post derailing the ignorance of Americans and the lies of the American media. Germany and France have huge interests in Iraq and both helped arm Iraq (indirectly):
France and Germany protect Iraq ties
-Sean
"The article talks about how this priceless artifact as well as many others, from the same civilisation that invented writing and the wheel, could be threatened by the impending war."
I place having Iraq as a civilization free enough to make NEW discovereies is better than hanging on to some old battery to remember a past glory.
Troll? Whatever. A blatant troll (the top parent) gets modded up and a reply (with examples) gets troll?
-Sean
Related link: Click here for the epitome of technology.
--- Ban humanity.
This battery, as well as many other things were found in locations that were known to be occupied by shamen/medicine men of the time. It is believed they used these very small currents to reduce some of the muscular pain of their patients, much as doctors would use it today on athletes and such.
This goes on to my point. A lot of these technologies did exist, but until civilization got to the right state of mind as to how to use it (i.e., Renaissance, Scientific/Industrial Revolution), these "hi-tech" items were nothing more than knick-knacks.
I have read/seen on TV that they (ancients) used the battery to plate (gold maybe) idols and religious items.
Maybe they were one of the first scam artists 'Ya it's solid gold'......
Imagine a beowolf cluster of these!
Anyone notice that the ICON that represents this story is a picture of a JEW ???
LOL!!!!!
What they are describing could easily be a cell ... but 'battery' is used in place of 'cell' in everyday language so I think it's OK.
OTOH the article gets really sad when it tries to get technical - it tries to put cells in series to bump the voltage for electroplating (you need a minimum voltage, but after that parallel is much more usefull because the plating rate is proportional to the current). The later on it talks about putting cells in parallel when it should mean series .... (for shocks)
What about the native American culture ?? Its hardly ever mentioned in the USA.It seems that not too many people in the US gives a damn about it, as if only the Europeans were the first people on the continent and made it their goal/game plan to wipe it out, and wipe it out they have. So bombing to oblivion Iraq and its cultural history by the Bush government shouldn't even raise an eyebrow.Its obsecene that the same people (Rumsfield, Dick Cheney etc) that went around in the 1980's providing Saddam with WMD so that they could defeat the Iranian Government now prance around teh world stage as if they are holier than though.Wait I just realised, there's oil under them Iraqi museums !!
Its a pity that the US media is just plain chicken when it comes to GW BUSH Jr and his cohorts, as there were some really lively and intellectual debates in the US regarding this war back in Sept/Oct2002.
Bin laden's next poster campaign will have a pic of GW Bush on it.. with Wee Need u !!
Most of the Arabic discoveries weren't new and exciting - they were lost information of the Greeks.
...
Basically, after Rome fell, there were two major 'camps' in the world. Over in the West, you had the Europeans, who were having a great time for themselves practicing forms of oppression on their citizens.
Over in the East, you had the Arabs, who sat around translating and reading Greek textbooks all day.
Damn the Romans!
I love it that the US Govt. is trying to say that if France etc. use the veto, they'll go ahead anyway and them using the veto will undermine the UN.
The US is the most vociferous user of the veto and has used it 46 times.
The next highest is France with..... 19 times.
The veto's fine it seems, unless it goes against them when they really, really, really want something (and Rumsfeld's threatening a temper tantrum or something if he doesn't get his way.)
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
For a brilliant and entertaining read about many other ancient inventions check out this book.
And at the risk of stretching credulity there is some conjecture that the Ark of the Covenant may have had the dual characteristic of being a very large capacitor -- two large gold plate surface areas with an acacia wood core -- which may explain its dangerous properties. That is, if the high-priest had impure thoughts, or didn't follow the manual, he would get killed by a lightning bolt. Legend had it that attendants would tie a rope to the high-priest's ankle and in the event of an untimely death they could pull him out instead of risking another's life.
Perhaps it contained a battery of Bagdad cells?
Don't fucking tell me that the US is protecting me from my own government. This is absurd. Don't you mind your own shit? I'm just fine the way I am. Go away!
The plan is this
First we free the Oil,
Then the liberate Iraqis,
Lastly the free artifacts.
The author is just getting over excited over nothing.
Capitalism: unequal distribution of wealth
Socialism: equal distribution of poverty
the only country to use small pox or nukes against civilians is the US.
It is bizarre reading this post and seeing someone quote as fact the propaganda of the British government and media.
That the British public is completely unfamiliar with the modern history of America and with their own government's history of creating instablity in the world is quite shocking. I think it's the reason why Britons swallow whole the misinformation and outright lies spoon fed to them by their media and politicians.
After WWII and continuing today, the UN mandates the teaching of the Nazi era to all German school children at all levels, in an attempt to ensure that Germans cannot hide from the legacy of the last world conflict.
I think that a similar UN mandate is warranted here. The uninformed/misinformed British public is creating real difficulties for the world by supporting appeasionist policies. I would like to see the U.N. step in and make an effort to teach British school children some basic facts about life outside the UK and the long history of Britain's damage to the wider world. Such an effort might go a long way towards helping Britons learn to behave in a civilized manner both as individuals and as a society.
British media (which we see around the world) is absolutely bland and boring. The only examples of blatant propaganda that come even close to it are post-modern French films and the works of Germans.
It would be too much to ask that the power structures behind the British media begin to show Britons the truth, but perhaps with a U.N. education effort for young Britons they will become less susceptible to the lies that they are force-fed and gleefully regurgitate here in such a repugnantly belligerent manner.
That is not correct. Iraq during the best of times only exports a fraction of what it is capable of exporting. They keep production down and maintain vast reserves in order to keep oil prices from getting too low. They also have older less efficient technology and a shoddy infrastructure. Replacing Saddam with a US Puppet would enable a MUCH higher export rate and thus drive prices way down.
I read that in the New York Times and WSJ months ago, but I'm not googling for it right now.
Please note this is a factual/economical correction and says nothing about my beliefs and opinions about war.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
In December, 2002, the Arcaeological Institute of America reaffirmed its standing resolution calling upon all governments to "protect ancient sites, monuments, antiquities, and cultural institutions in the case of war." Unfortunately, the U.S. is not a signatory to the Hague Convention which explicitly provides for such protection.
A few years ago, Archaeology Magazine also ran an excellent story on the problem of looting since the Gulf War -- Stolen Stones: The Modern Sack of Nineveh. It's worthwhile reading about how the chaos of war led to widespread sacking of these archaeological sites.
ancarett, historian and zombie gamer
very very funny how the general /. liberal bias shows up on all of the right wing conspiry theories.
It also shows a lack of factual knowledge and lack of logic. I guess that's why liberals have a hard time seperating their 'emotional' attachment to issues even when there is factual evidence that their belief is invalid.
.. if Saddam Hussein did it, then it's okay for the U.S. to do it too.
Using your logic, it would be perfectly acceptable for Bush to use VX gas on demonstrators in New York.
The US was partnered with the USSR when it was busy arming countries like Iraq. Also, it is not proven that the US has helped arm any other country with weapons of mass destruction. This claim is pure conjecture on your part.
What about Isreal?
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Listen, it is confirmed that Saddam has killed a plethora of his own people. It is confirmed that this same dude has mysteriously not accounted for most of the chemical weapons cataloged during the early 1990's. It is also confirmed that this SOB sent out 3 ships floating around the Indian Ocean with most of these "missing" weapons. He must be stopped period. No ifs and or buts. Most of the Peacequeers(Hollywood limosine liberals) talking out against the the war are ones with a political agenda and because of Bush. None of these people lifted a finger whilst Clinton was bombing aspirin factories on Baghdad. Make me sick how two faced these hippocrates are. As far as France, Germany, and Russia are concerned they have "business" dealings with Iraq worth billions of dollars. Selling arms-turning Mirage jets into anthrax cropdusters. These countries only care for their own economivcs interests. They don't care for the rest of the world. Wait,wait,wait is there game. I do not agree with Bush on most issues. I think he has been spoon fed by daddy most of his life. I hate his siding with corporations all the time but in the case of IRAQ he is dead right!!!
watch american moderators rip you to pieces
Does anyone remember Bin Laden? Isn't he who we were after FIRST?
*Whisper Whisper*
What does passing the buck mean?
g
The US is planning to occupy and re-build Iraq, which means that they know they will have to pay for anything they break. So it is highly unlikely that the bombing this time around will be as extensive as it was last time around, and even last time no attempt was made to bomb them back into the stone age. That strategy dates back to Vietnam when carpet bombing was all the rage.
If you want to know what Iraq will look like after the war, take a look at Kosovo.
I can buy an 8 pack of batteries at the store down the street for $1.99.
Honestly, is this the best the anti-war types can come up with now? Let's not be so quick to forget that we almost lost WWII because countries like the US didn't get involved soon enough. Now the US is getting ridiculed for this? Not to mention Britain and others (pretty much anyone but Germany/France). How quickly we forget our history...
then I'd hate to see the vibrator it goes into! ;)
from the same civilisation that invented writing and the wheel
Many Slashdot story submitters must not have come from this "civilisation", because they obviously don't know how to spell civilization properly.
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
"than the liberation of millions of oil barrils"
that's barrels, dork.
Sanctions have already killed millions of Iraqis
An I supose your stance would be to continue with the santions forever...
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth as the saying goes.
I think it's time to replace our world leaders with small shell scripts............
i don't get it. so what if a 2200 year old battery is destroyed by the war. the batteries we make nowadays are a hole lot better, and i'd rather have a new one than an old one.
sincerely,
president george w. bush
Perhaps we should inquire with the folks in India, Scotland, and Ireland about the history of benevolent British cultural influence.
Oh, and Your Majesty? The Indians would like their jewels back from your crown.
I read Slashdot almost everyday and i think this is the first post about Iraq since about over one year...
Considering the importance of the subject (by the time i write these lines theres is near 1000 reply), i don't understand why Slashdot don't have posted Iraqi related stories before ?
Maybe i'm paranoid... but is there someone who censor this subject ?
Has the Patent run out on this? It still seems to be working, and who knows how long the orginial law says how long the patent is. If the originial patent was for the lifetime of the product, I would expect that Energizer, and Duracell and all those other battery makers to star forking over the dough. Remember there is nothing worse than a patent thief!
Support archeology- create craters!!!
France, Germany and Russia all have heavy investments in the Iraqi oil industry. They have been working on getting huge follow on expansion of their involvement as soon as the UN lifts its sanctions. France, Germany and Russia all know if the US kicks Saddam out of power all their back office deals are down the tube and the rebuilding of the Iraqi economy will be handle by US firms.
France and Russia have been selling arms, duel use technology and nuclear technology to Iraq for the last 35 years. The Iraqis will continue to refuse to destroy the Al Samoud 2 missiles as ordered by the UN. They will whine and complain and drag their feet for years as France, Germany and Russia continues to support them in the UN Security Council.
I think the US should just state for the record an extension of the MAD deterrence policy of the cold war. ONLY they should tell the world "Okay we'll leave Iraq alone BUT if a terrorist group, any terrorist group, uses a WMD against the US, the US will use fusion bombs on the capitols of all nations that are currently refusing to deal with Iraq's weapons programs now."
Piracy is still taking place around S.E. Asia. Wanna bet that's going to be suppressed soon? Or maybe there already are armed merchant ship decoys wandering around waiting for attacks.
1. Buy oil and store it
2. Make oil prices go up (e.g. going to start a war in Middle East)
3. Sell the oil you stored
4. Profit
Iraq has the 2nd biggest oil reserves in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is number 1, Kuwait being number 3.
Yeah, you wouldn't believe the hassle I get in trying to practice my Viking heritage. Believe me, it's much faster to drive across the country than try to take my battle axe on a plane.
Not like America didn't ship arms, supplies, and even troops to Europe to help the allies before Pearl Harbor was bombed...
"I don't believe for one second that this is primarily about oil, but it certainly isn't about the national security of the U.S.
And you don't think that he might, just might sell WMD to terrorists?
I think if he and Al Quaeda (sp?) have a common enemy, they might join forces. AND, can you really take Bin Laden's word that he doesn't like Saddam? How do you know he is not just saying this to make the USA look bad for going to war with Iraq? Saddam and Osama are buddies, there are even Al Quaeda "summer camps" in Iraq, even the librals admit that! Buddies back each other, and thats what they are doing by professing to dislike the other. And if the intent is not clear, they don't want Saddam to lose WMD. With out those, they are reduced to less damaging attacks on the "free world".
I certainly see the games being played here, too bad you and a number of other people are having a fast one pulled on you... you probably simpathized with the CBS/Dan Rather interview with Saddam and believe he is really after peace and harmony.
So clearly, this IS ABOUT THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE USA.
But you probably won't believe me, and the rest who see the games going on, until a nuclear weapon is detonated in the smack center of a major US/UK/Israeli/other fredome loving nation's city.
I think he was battling stomach cancer.
Thats what he died of I hear.
Doesn't really matter, it's probably a dead battery by now anyway.
No, wait, before you mod me down for trolling, what I should have said is if Iraq has this old dead battery we should let Sadam build any weapons he wants and pretty much do anything he wants.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
The BBC is government owned.
I wonder if it spends much time condemning the British Empire's colonialism in the region.
What is the use of that, I already have lots of flat batteries... Battery technology hasn't improved much in 2000 years it seems.
According to Bush, it's a cold fusion nukular (sic) device.
You are willing to concede that they may have used these things for electro-plating jewellery (i.e. an industrial use of electricity, still commonly used today) but you still claim the devices are not batteries.
Would you care to clarify your definition of what a battery is?
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
The total cost of war will add up to billions of US dollars. Rehabilitating Iraq after such a war will add billions more to the cost. Oil prices are already soaring and effecting us already at the pump.
Think about it. IF it was primarily about OIL, there is a FAR cheaper way for the US to get their hands on it. The US should fire their accountants/economists/stategists if this was the case. They could easily screw other countries out of their oil.
Alright folks, this is obviously just an excuse to talk about the war, so let's talk about it. I'm announcing a challenge the antiwar contingent on slashdot (clearly the majority). This is not flamebait. I am asking for non-aggressive answers to an honest question. If you accept the challenge then respond: Do not mod me down to censor me.
Everyone seems to be in agreement that Saddam is an evil man. He's killed and tortured many of his own people, launched regional wars of aggression, in both cases using weapons of mass destruction. As many point out, the US in the past has made great mistakes in its foreign policy. But that has nothing to do with the present. The decision to create this monster in the past does not suggest we should allow him to continue now; on the contrary, it suggests we should slay the monster we created and repay our debt of honor to the Iraqi people.
We also have the problem that inspections in the past have failed; they did not find his biological programs (those were revealed by a son-in-law who defected, who Saddam murdered in retaliation for this revelation). Neither did they "contain" Saddam, who kicked out the inspectors in 1998, and we have every reason to believe that his weapons programs will continue and the inspectors will either be fooled or kicked out once again if the US military stands down. Neither will such supposed containment deter Saddam from passing these horrific weapons to terrorists or otherwise supporting them, leaving no fingerprints behind.
If Saddam is allowed to develop a nuclear weapon, we can expect to see a situation worse than North Korea today. Saddam's stated goal is to dominate the region, which will cause turmoil in several ways: 1st, the world economy will be thrown into chaos, as the Middle east is the main source of energy. 2nd, it will start a regional nuclear arms race, as neighboring states attempt to counter Iraq's nuclear force. 3rd, saddam's genoicidal and murderous practices will be expanded to millions more. Finally, we will have no defense against terrorism if Iraq is allowed to develop a significant deterrent.
And yes, Iraq is involved in terrorism. The main plotter behind WTC attack #1 (1993) was Ramzi Yousef, an Iraqi agent. Iraqi agents also tried to assassinate George H W Bush in 1993 along with the emir of Kuwait. There have been high level contacts throughout the 90s between Iraq and al-Qaeda, and although many speculate that the two are too "ideologically different" to cooperate, they seem to like each other enough to call their men to support each other, from the looks of their press releases. Saddam openly pays $25k to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. We know from surveillance and defectors that Iraq was training airplane hijackers at Salman Pak before September 11th. We also know that Iraq, a police state where no one gets in or out without permission, is harboring al Zarqawi, an al Qaeda associated terrorist who also has connections with the terrorists found with Ricin in Europe.
So here's the challenge: in the face of the the terrorist threat, the regional threat, and the oppression and murder of the Iraqi people, what would you do? Do not respond by making personal attacks on President Bush. Do not respond by pointing out past US mistakes. Just tell us what you would do.
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
we should bomb them I think
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
wouldn't a bomb for iraq be nice
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
kaboom!
My motto is: Never give up - unless it's harder than you want it to be.
Are you smoking something? There isn't a civilization on earth that's lasted 2200 years.
--Rob
"Small, green, and split three ways."
Towards the Singularity.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The Mother of all Batteries?
Huk huk huk.
I remembered reading a while back a theory that the Arc of the Covenant was actually a battery. This (so the article claimed) was the reason that when people touched it they died. It was an interesting theory.
I did my best to find a link to such a writeup, but Google keeps sending me to sites about UFO's. I can't speak for the validity of the site, but here is a mention of the theory. Right down to him referring to the Arc as 'Old Sparky'.
What a strange choice for describing where static electricity is noticable.
And I didn't know it was infectious. So that's where computer viruses come from! I never knew.
Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagena
-l
Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
I think if he and Al Quaeda (sp?) have a common enemy, they might join forces. AND, can you really take Bin Laden's word that he doesn't like Saddam? Ok, so Iraq sells weapons to terrorists. Lets think about how this justifies a war for a minute. The U.S. has funded, trained, and supplied terrorists (Al-Qaeda). Im sure we still are and in 20 years we will be catching it in the ass from the same people who we are now funding, supplying, and training to fight the "war on terror". Shouldn't the rest of the world attack the U.S. for funding terrorists? Also, please stop calling the US a freedom loving country. We are a freedom loving people, but the government is not freedom loving. Every day our freedoms are reduced even more and eventually they simply will not exist. Think about this: you can read whatever you want on the Internet, even if it is counter to U.S. policy, BUT you will be watched and logged by the FBI, CIA, etc...Now think about those agancies' record on civil liberties and you can judge for yourself wether or not the US is a freedom loving country. Do yourself a favor and read 1984. Note that "Big Brother" is always at war with somebody, and then look back on the last 50 years of U.S. history. Its just one war after another, and the "war on terror" is by defenition never going to end. Surveilance of every citizen is just the tip of the iceburg. Your right; games are being played. A reporter asks Ari Fleisher (sp?) why Americans should believe the Governemnt about Iraq considering how we been defrauded in the past (Gulf of Tonkin). His response: Its not about wether you can believe our government. Its about wether you can believe Saddam Hussein. That statement shows that the government thinks that we have been conditioned to believe anything. How can trust in our government not be an issue? The Bush administration is dangerouse. The U.S. is now a rogue state, working outside of the United Nations. Disarm George W. Bush in 2004!
Do me a favor and double it!
I'm all of a sudden reminded of the illuminatus trilogy.... there is a part involving an island called "fernando poo" which the american government is led to believe is being occupied by chinese and russian forces, even though it is not. of course, russia and china can't withdraw forces that are not even occupying the place... but russia comes up with a quite absurd scheme to smuggle forces into fernando poo, and then publicly take them out. All because the american gov had fictionalized info. I've felt parallels in current events to that book for a long time, though the book is fiction.
See, and when we told Saddam he wouldn't have a pot to piss in he thought we were joking. ;)
-FF
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
Searched Google for for "Osiriak", like you requested. this is one of the articles I found. Was that the support you wanted for your point?
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
From down here in Australia I certainly hear you and the millions of other Americans who don't agree with Bush... the millions of people who protested around the world against the war, the millions who are just trying to ask "WHY are you really wanting to attack this country?"
And I damn well hear the presidents and prime ministers who effectively said "Eh, they don't know what they're talking about".
Well f*ck you, you damn arrogant politions... I thought the whole point you're trying to push with this 'war on terror' is that DEMOCRACY is the aim, is the wonderful chalice we should all be aspiring to... but it seems in order to enforce that very view across the world, you are going to IGNORE the views of the very people you are supposed to be SERVING! Great demonstration of democracy there!
So, I hear what you're saying, many of us Australians do... so don't take the general USA bashing personally... it's aimed fair and square at your government, not you personally.
(And slightly off topic, I was recently at a concert where Ani Difranco performed, and she very elloquently summed up how herself and so many other Americans feel at this time, with their government doing things that they hate.)
Granted Clinton sucked, but I don't think he was the worst. What about these morons?
Warren Harding: Teapot dome scandal
Andrew Johnson: failure to rule during reconstruction
Millard Filmore: ineptitude resulting in Civil war
Franklin Pierce: See Filmore
James Bucahnan: See Filmore and Pierce
Ronald Reagan: Iran/Contra, James Watt, worst deficit spending ever
Ulysses Grant: corrupt administration, I don't remember specifics
Richard Nixon: Watergate, Secret bombing of Cambodia and Laos
Andrew Jackson: Trail of Tears, perversion of Federal system of government to National System of governement
George W. Bush: PATRIOT act, appointing John Ashcroft, detaining of citizens without trial and due process
Also throw in the pro-business plutocrats (I want to say Taft or McKinnley, but I'm not too sure on this) of the late 1800's and early 1900's whose lack of fiscal regulation resulted in the Great Depression.
Being "at War" is a legal term. Congress has not
passed a declaration of War signed by a sitting president.
Since, as CT has stated previously: "We focus on technical news here, and geek humor, and free software. Not on international politics."
/. going down. Not censorship. I apologize about that, since apparently /. can now support the load. The news source for the above is Pacifica Radio's Iraq coverage, and in particular Prof Chomsky. I'm sorry for the spelling mistakes. This morning Pacifica claimed it was illegal again according to US law, but I am no lawyer. However, the US did ask for the right to take military action in November, and the Security Council refused them. Why ask if they did not need it? I got a lot of email about this, about a 1/3 supportive, mainly non-US, and 2/3s against, mainly US. To the extent that I believe democracy is about questioning government motives, something I have not seen on US-media, I do not apologize for this post. I do think it is stuff that matters, and if I were not ill I would have come up with better sources. I am sorry though, about the reaction it caused. Further info is in Liberation and Democracy Now. World reaction is not all favorable.
At least he didn't disable commments, à la Sengan:
US and UK unilaterally attack Iraq
Posted by sengan on Wednesday December 16, @02:30PM
from the lots-of-geeks-work-in-the-defense-industry dept.
2 hours ago, the US and UK started an attack on Iraq. Under international law, this attack is illegal as it was not approved by the UN security council. In fact the UN security council has rejected repeated US requests to authorize it. Under international law, this is a war-crime. Under US law it is illegal, since Congress was not asked to approve it. (CT:Sengan is wrong here. Under Executive Order, Clinton can do this) The Pentagon estimates that 10,000 people will be killed. There are disturbing reports that Richard Butler, chairman of UNSCOM, has been in consultation with the US to draft his reports. Moreover, Cofi Annan, UN-head did not instruct Butler to evacuate the arms inspectors -- the US did. France, Russia and China have voiced opposition. Of relevance is that tomorrow, Clinton was to be impeached since most of the congress members wanted him impeached. Indeed, the Senate told the Whitehouse that he would be impeached tomorrow unless he bombed Iraq.
Comments are disabled, as I expect a lot of people will believe the US/UK side of the story and will consider this story flame-bait or political. Lots of readers have submitted the story, so some of you are interested. I personally am disgusted at my country's behaviour (the UK) which always follows the US lead, because it believes it has some sort of special relationship with the US... yeah, right. Also, notice that the attack (5pm EST, 1am Iraq time) happened to be timed for prime-time US-TV, just like the Libya attack. Remember that Iraq was an ally of the US, and the US shipped Iraq weapons of mass-destruction, such as chemical weapons. Indeed, after the Gulf War, when the US was supposed to be enforcing a no-fly zone, Iraq used chemical weapons against the southern Shia Muslims.
Update: 12/16 08:53 by CT: I enabled comments. I didn't think it fair that a gag be placed here, especially not considering Sengan's fairly inflammatory statements. I won't bother harping on my political beliefs here, you guys can state your own. Feel free to refute the huge number of flaws in Sengans of writeup- including the fact that Legally a president can, under executive order declare military operations without congressional approval.
Update: 12/16 10:20 by CT: I'm getting a boatload of email about this thing, and I have no choice but to post this form response and to beg people to lay off until tomorrow at noon when I'll be done with my exams. I really don't wanna retake History next semester.
It was inappropriate for Sengan to disable comment posting and use Slashdot as his personal soapbox. I reenabled comment posting as soon as I noticed. I'm really sorry about this, it was inexcusable.
This story was inappropriate for Slashdot. We focus on technical news here, and geek humor, and free software. Not on international politics. That said, I give authors free reign to post stories on what they see appropriate. In this case, that free reign bit me in the ass.
The article has several mistakes, errors, and inaccuracies. The comments list many of them over and over again.
I really need to continue studying or I'm gonna bomb this exam, and I really don't want to retake a class next semester.
I'm sorry.
Update: 12/16 11:45 by S: I disabled comments in order to avoid
You people crack me up. *wah!* War is bad! *wah!* "We're computer geeks who think we understand foreign policy!" Get over it, and stop putting yourselves in a position of supposed intellectual superiority.
I understand that most of you couldn't care less that Saddam tortures and kills his people. You are probably the same people who would have ignored Stalin's atrocities because they "didn't harm anyone else". Iraq's leader has stated objectives that include controlling the entirety of the Arab world and its oil. So certainly, let's let him go so that he can lead Iraq to becoming another WW2-era Germany or current-era North Korea.
Or, perhaps you could consider this. Liberate Iraq so that the rest of the world can have access to the historical treasures of the Cradle of Civilization.
Feel free to continue your "witty" political banter.
Walgurf
Sadam relieves volunteer human shields and replaces them with priceless artifacts. Volunteer hippie shields at a loss to find new place to hang out and smoke their pot. More details to come.
Er, what the hell? Bombing Iraq will only lead to more hatred of the United States around the world. And how do you know there will be another terrorist strike, and that bombing the shit out of Iraq will fix it?
Quit your bitching. Do some research and either reply in a positive manner, or go away.
It's no wonder Americans ignore the international community in general. You people whine too much.
Walgurf
unless the administration has a personality disorder... Did Rumsfield suddenly realize that giving WMD's to Sadaam was a bad thing, maybe even immoral? If you pay attention to the news you will realize that the dead in Iraq have been balanced by those we allowed to die in Afghanistan...by preventing humanitarian aid. Stop the catlap argument that this is about human rights...it's not - wake up!
In America, we provide sources for our quotes. That way, it doesn't look like we're making them up.
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
After the Enlightenment, there were civilizations more advanced than Europe? Really? I know that `advanced' is the squishiest of terms, but I'm really wondering which ones, since the rest of the world was still stuck with feudalism or tribalism, and didn't have anything like science going on...
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Isn't this like saying the U.S. should not have gone to war in Afghanistan because the ancient statues of Budha might be destroyed.
Oh wait...nevermind.
Okay, no library here, and I don't think I can acquire and read the referenced book before the discussion gets archived. So, I'm going to ask you to summarize.
What about the Chines inventing gunpowder, clockwork, beaurocracy while the Europeans were sitting around in caves? What about the entire middle ages in Europe, which were essentially a thousand years of degeneracy and decline?
And how come the middle east is "The West" when it's the cradle of civilization, but "The East" when you want to invade?
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
I tend to agree. --Interestingly, the currents required to stimulate healing biological responses have been described as vanishingly small by Robert O. Becker, who spent a life time researching this line of inquiry. --Why and how salimanders are able to regrow limbs while more complex animals cannot; how cells can and do dedifferentiate on the DNA level, (which throws cold water on the while stem cell research parade). . . Among other things.
It's annoying that the bulk of interest here seems centered on U.S. bombing campaigns. Especially on a tech-news site!
-Fantastic Lad
During the Gulf War, Iraq attempted to launch terrorist attacks on American targets but they proved to be fairly incapable of doing anything on their own.
Today, with war a near certainty, Iraq is outsourcing its terrorism to fundamentalist groups, most notably in the Philippines.
Prior to this, Islamic fundamentalists and Hussein hadn't worked together because, well, Hussein is an "socialist apostate" who'd been using his chemical weapons to kill countless muslims. With the US bearing down on both of them, they're now entering into an temporary alliance of convienence.
So basically, our "war on terrorism" is forcing into existance the kind of alliances we presupposed going into it. Fantastic.
(a) Iraqi Rape Squads? Unless you can back that up with some kind of reference, I'm shelving that term with "slot-jacket ass panderers" as meaningless.
(b) Ha! We'll fix that soon enough in any case, when we start dropping fire on them. Burn, small brown children, burn!
As I read over the great history lesson being presented, I note two omissions:
i ju dgment/inus_ijudgment_19860627.pdf
The anti-terrorist campaign in Afganistan was a failure. Bin Laden is still free.
The only country ever tried for terrorism in the World Court is the United States.
http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/inus_
All things considered, don't you think the US motives are at least suspect (as well as anyone elses)?
And for all the discussion... wow, look at those MEMES go.
And I would like to see the damn batteries (preferablly under peaceful circumstances).
Anti-war wankers on parade.
Worst was probably too strong a term. Your list certainly contains better canidates (I certainly don't agree with all of the entires on your list ;) for that honor.
I had to laugh though at Grant, because my wife is a decendant of Grant, so in order to keep the peace I have had to tuck away all of my Grant comments. He is one of the finest examples of why high ranking military officers should be barred from running for elected office.
The problem with this article is that it ignores two things. First, it depends mostly on the statments of Howard Teicher, who is a known liar (and even perjured himself in a sworn affidavit, where he made most of these claims), and second, it mentions NSDD-114 out of context but ignores the contents of NSDD-139, which made "unambiguous" the US refusal to support the Iraqi chemical & biological weapons programs.
Wow! Impressive claims, especially when made against the Post, who are, y'know, an actual newspaper. You'll pardon me if I give them a little more credence than some blowhard on Slashdot who can't be bothered to find references for his opinions.
So, can you back any of that up, or are you just making it up as you go along?
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Look.
Baghdad is old.
It has been old when the Bible was written.
It has survived a lot of wars. It will survive this war.
And that is a Good Thing in my book.
my
"I'm hoping that you're from one of those once-superpowers-that-we-saved-your-ass in 50 years ago."
Was that by any chance Britain? Which the Commonwealth countries were fighting to save from the start of the war? Only took a bit over two years for the US to get involved, at least an improvement over World War 1 where it took the US three. You do realise that in the darkest days of 1940, when Britain came very close to an armistice, the US was nowhere to be seen?
Admittedly prior to 1942 the US did provide arms on cash terms, bleeding the empire dry and creating a boom which ended the Depression, while US-owned companies like Ford and Open provided most of the Werhmacht's trucks. Milo Minderbinder from Catch 22 had nothing on the USA before Pearl Harbour.
When the money ran out, Lend-Lease was enacted *because of pressure from US industry that would have collapsed if it hadn't been for Commonwealth orders* and sent the US back into a depression.
Remember what it took to get the US involved in Europe in World War 2: after Pearl Harbour Germany declared war on the US!!!
"defend whole continents from a succession of aggressors" my arse...
and next to the batteries, they found a 2,000 year old walk man and a few CDs. Nothing too interesting, though. Mainly dinosaur rock.
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
Then what? You wait and see how people fight back with mutant powers? Psychic terrorism maybe? Go watch sci-fi instead of reality shows, please.
You can't take the sky from me...
You fell for it, the If you're against unilateral invasion of Iraq you support Saddam Hussein straw man argument. Well, cheer up, most people have. G. Bush has gotten some stunning mileage with it.
The fact is, if we all got together as nations and set up, ratified, enforced, and evolved a system of international law, we might be able to
Lawyers say hard cases make bad law; on /. , polarized, passionate argument makes for injudicious moderation. Here we see prime examples of incompetent, blatantly biased rating of posts. Whether you want to fix it or junk it as forever hopeless, the fact is moderation is a mess.
it's time to flush.
Clinton was not responsible for the CIA and FBI letting the WTC get blown up. I think that their own bosses were to blame; in other countries, managers take the blame because they are RESPONSIBLE for their own action (or inaction). Not here -- we'd rather point the finger at someone else.
Bush #1 ran the CIA, then the White House for 12 years. Nobody in his right mind now believes that Reagan was calling the shots. And our current snafu with Iraq is directly the result of actions Bush #1 took both at the CIA (giving Anthrax to Hussein) and in the White House (launching a war, then not finishing it)
During Clinton's 8 years in office, his domestic agenda was befuddled by Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, and hundreds of other Republican jackasses who would rather talk about cigars and stained dresses than fix our problems in education, health care, and social security. Yet Clinton came closer than any other world leader in bringing peace to Ireland and Israel. Clinton may have goofed around on the job, but he was 10x the president that we have now. I had a job and lots of prospects under Clinton; under Bush, my unemployment ran out and there are no F*cking jobs here in Chicago.
Bush #2 has filled his cabinet with cronies from his father's administration and also from the oil industry. Only an evil man would claim that we need an energy policy "based on oil consumption" -- yes folks, that's a real quote.
Don't blame me,
I voted with the majority.
A false dilemma is bad reasoning.
Don't be surprised if three generations from now the truth about the ancient battery is uncovered:
it was a mistake made in the future when someone went back to the past. They're probably laughing at us right now in another timeline because we don't get it.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
hes a man
What about this pot ?
WOW a 2200 year old battery !!!
I wanna know more !
I request everyone not specifically talking about the foreverready batter be modded to -1. That way I can find the useful information about this fascinating pot
Sex toys.
.8 volts...
Ah the pleasant tingling of
I recently sent this to my local newspaper as an open letter to my community. Seeing as this discusion is a thinly veiled pretext to vent on the Iraqi situation I thought I'd just wade right into that. (I have a comment on the battery elsewhere in the discussion.) Try to enjoy.
I am of an age that when I was in high school History was still being taught, not modified to make the kids feel good. I learned about how WWII got started. I was taught about Neville Chamberlain, the English Prime Minister who went to Germany in 1939 and got Hitler's reassurance about his non-aggression policy as Germany's Army, Navy and Air Force were being tooled to be the mightiest the world had ever seen. How he came back home to England with "peace in our lifetime" on his lips on the eve of Hitler's blitzkrieg through, first Eastern, than Western Europe?
People back then all wanted peace so badly that they were willing to accept any price to maintain the illusion. Then, after Poland was overrun, France and England declared war on Germany but did nothing as the tanks rolled across the Arden. The rest of the world held its breath waiting for somebody else to stop Hitler. Then Mussolini and Tojo, seeing that the world couldn't get off its ass, just went out and started grabbing huge sections of it for themselves.
Those are the people that we should wait for to 'help' us do something about Sadly Insane? Why? Do we need to watch the French surrender yet one more time? Why should Germany care, they have been protected for so long (by US) that they just want to maintain the status quo. Surely they learned something from WWII? Like, let somebody else take care of it while they are protected.
Who then should we wait on? The United Nations is the group of spineless, hollow people who told Sadly Insane to disarm 12 years ago 'or else'. Or else what, they'd tell him to do it again, and again, while he laughs and plays 'hide the bombs' with the inspectors? Sadly insane has had more last chances than Barbra Streisand has had final concerts. Maybe it's time to leave the United Nations to whither on the vine and leave US to take care of ourselves.
We would get a lot more respect from countries like N. Korea if they saw that we mean what we say. As it is they see us as gutless and without the resolve to do anything but rattle our sabers. I wonder where they got that idea? As hard as it is for good, honest, God-fearing people to understand that there are people who see compassion and kindness as signs of weakness, there are such people. Unfortunately some of these people have come to control weapons of mass destruction and have given the world little reason to believe that they would act with restraint if given half a chance.
When should we stop these people? Everybody seems to want to wait for everybody else but doesn't want anybody else to do anything out of fear of retaliation. This is circular logic. The despots will act unilaterally and without warning while that circle of thought spins itself and US into self destruction.
We've lost face in the world's eyes during the Clinton administration. All he'd use the military for was to get his personal scandals off of the front page. We were attacked no less than four times on his watch and he did something between little and nothing about it. We lost so much respect that a small bunch of cave dwellers brought down the World Trade Towers. Cave men for God sake!
This is about more than Iraq, N. Korea and Iran combined. If we don't regain our manhood as a country then we will be the targets of every yahoo with a will to do harm. Doing harm is easy, look at what a couple of screwballs did in Oklahoma city; regaining respect is very hard. There is only one way to do that in a way that these sorts of people understand.
Think about the former Soviet Union; did anybody attack them the way that we were attacked, or as often? Any idea why? I know why: any attack would have been met with sure and sudden retribution so harsh as to make the thought of the original act unthinkable.
Now, cave men attack us with our own planes on our own turf. Maybe they thought we were all Clintonian in our lack of self respect. They are wrong about me, they are wrong about G. W. Bush and his team. I surely hope they are wrong about the majority of us, or we will get more of the same, more and more frequently until there are none of us left.
The case has been made since Sadly Insane invaded Kuwait; and then it was made again when he expelled the inspectors some four years ago. There was no backbone at the helm of State then, there seems to be now. All we accomplish while waiting any longer is for him to be more and better prepared. The sooner we get in there the sooner done and the less lives (on both sides) lost. Why wait any longer? How many more must die?
If not US, who?
If not now, when?
Cave dwellers for God sake!
Now is the time.
We are the people.
United we stand or divided we'll surely fall.
Sincerely,
Aimé F. Watts, Jr.
aimew@sprintmail.com
Keeper of the terrible karma ---
Please
Battery
Any energy-storage device allowing release of electricity on demand.
A battery use for magical purposes is still a battery.
Can you explain what it means? It looks like "The French are of the monkies of something who eat cheese".
Stick Men
> "The BBC has an interesting article about a 2,200
> year old battery discovered in Iraq in 1938. It is
> basically a clay pot containing a copper/iron core
> immersed in an electrolye solution (probably
> acidic vinegar). The article talks about how
> this priceless artifact as well as many others,
> from the same civilisation that invented writing
> and the ***wheel***, could be threatened by the
> impending war."
So these guys could've been driving electric cars since, what, about 2000 years ago? *And* selling oil to the rest of us?
No wonder they were happy to torch the oilfields in 1991; we'd have all been walking while they were driving around with the top down, picking up chicks at will. Damn you Saddam; you and your whisper quiet automotive technology.
A 2200 year old battery? Where can I get one for a Sony laptop?
Cop that, Energizer bunny!
The BBC has an interesting article about a 2,200 year old battery ...
... how this priceless artifact as well as many others...
... threatened by the impending war.
This are is undoughtedly a hoax or a fake, If it was a battery it would show signs of electrolysis not corrosion, it does not it is also rather pointless without something to apply the power to, a light, motor, a transistor radio. It is probably an early 20th Century hoax or propaganda aimed at the appeasenicks and is to be expected from Saddam really.
However you don't expect this type of sloppyness from the BBC. The article makes the automatic assumption that the West will be bombing museums, and by implication, schools hospitals etc. This is just plainly absurd. The BBC seem to have dropped their usual impartiality and integrity on this whole issue and adopted a pro-appeasenick position.
Really, I appreciate all the "batteries of mass destruction" jokes, but isn't there a little bit too much off-topic political commentary floating up to the +5/Insightful (inciteful) level here?
Bah, nobody will read this anyway...
This Like That - fun with words!
They have been preparing terrorism for 2200 years !!!
Sorry, but the link to resolution 1441 is bad. However you can get there from here, or here (unless I goofed it up yet again...).
I remember an article on this c. 1965, probably Popular Electronics. It was assumed they were for electroplating. As such, I propose that they are absolutely invaluable historical artifacts. I don't think we have an souvenirs from the world's oldest profession, so these devices to separate a rube from his shekels are the next best thing.
Arran Frood investigates what could have been the very first batteries and how these important archaeological and technological artefacts might now be liberated by the impending war in Iraq.
War can liberate more than a people, a country, or a region. Culture, tradition and history also stand to benefit.
Iraq has a rich national heritage. The Garden of Eden and the Tower of Babel are said to have been sited in this ancient land.
In any war, there is a chance that priceless treasures will be lost forever, articles such as the "ancient battery" that resides defenceless in the museum of Baghdad. But with the current state of Iraq, they may as well be lost, given the limited access and importance these articles are assigned.
Trust me. This is an inactive account. Regardless of what the
Insightful and interesting.
:)
I found it to be one of the best comments made so far in this thread.
Ugmo, I think this one should be rated at least a four. But I think everybody ran themselves out of mod points today.
Great comment. (I still can't believe it is only a two. Oh, well at least one mod was on the ball)
Since I cannot do the real thing, please consider this a karma mod. In other words: good post!
You might be suprised, If you consider the fact that persons almost always remember being shocked, and the fact that you are indeed transfering millions of electrons with even the slightest voltage differential, you could argue that the shock slightly alters yourself on a moleculear level and does subtly change you in ways we still do not begin to understand.
Whether we go in now to Iraq, we go in later, somebody else goes in later, Saddam does it himself, he attacks someone or there is internal civil war it does not make any difference. These things are all threatened until a democratic government and civil society occur in Iraq that cares about history, preserving culture, preserving life, developing a future. The current government is a threat now and in the future and all the US can do is get it over with and give the Iraqis some peace from the 12 years of immoral containment and 30 years of dictatorship.
An american wouldn't flee huis home? Please! What you call America (the USA) was _founded_ by people who (for many different reasosn) fled their homes. Stop talking crap.
And about me being a coward, It's kinda hard to "stay home and fix it" whan you are 2 y.o. you sorry dumbass.
If you don't come up with better arguments next time I will not even bother answering...
Cheers!..
$HOME is where the
-- silver_p
Have you stopped beating your wife yet? ;-)
And wasnt the US who threatened Mexico (a non-permanent member of the Security Council) with severe economic sanctions and to forever tie-up in the US congress a visa waiver program for temporary mexican workers in the US?
Even though a visa waiver program would bring much needed dollars to mexican small towns all over the country, the whole of the country is firmly against the war and President Vicente Fox has stated that, despite the promises (and later threats) received from Bush and Spanish president Aznar, he will uphold our constitution which prohibits the country to engage in offensive war (as opposed to defending one's country), and also prohibits us from condoning other country's invasions.
No sig for the moment.