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Japan, China & South Korea May Develop OS
v1x writes "Reuters reports that Japan, South Korea and China are set to agree to jointly develop a new computer operating system as an alternative to Microsoft Corp.'s Windows software. It is said that if the plan matures, the three nations are likely to build upon an open-source operating system, such as Linux, and develop an inexpensive and trustworthy system."
It seems like if they want the most bank for the buck they should just work on Linux and create their own distribution. Something like Redflag Software Co., however I doubt countries such as China would be interested in something so open as Linux. Unless they had other motives such as installing filtering code deep in the kernel or something to block access to content they don't want you to see.
As a subscriber to Slashdot, I saw, "Japan, China & South Korea May Develop OS" ... "In the Mysterious Future." Just thought I'd share that. Kinda funny thing to see.
Windows apps, a la Lindows?
If Japan were really planning on doing this, they would do it themselves. China would as well, I believe. I wonder who is really behind this effort?
The three nations are likely to build upon an open-source operating system, such as Linux, and develop an inexpensive and trustworthy system.
Aka: They are going to take Linux or BSD Sources, change some strings and compile them into their own kernel.
-- Put crudely, the world is an extremely large problem instance. (Russel/Norvig Artificial Intelligence)
Instead of corporate lethargy and resistance to change...
We'll have government beaurocracy and spy agencies trying to include sneaky backdoors!
Seriously, though, this doesn't excite me very much. Kinda like China's CPU... and DoD's Linux... although they may make interesting contributions and suggest different approaches to security. And I haven't read the article, so I'm wondering whether it'll be a joint effort with separate translations, or if they'll just go with English.
"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants." --Thomas Jefferson
.. an OS with East-Asian language support built in. If it's halfway decent, I can see it being used in cybercafes all over the globe. It'll sure be a lot easier than, as I've some Japanese travellers have to do, log on at a cafe, trying to install Japanese character sets/keyboards . They'll be able to send emails in their native language/character set right off the bat.
Released, too, under a virulent license like the GPL? Would the governments have to release sources of their modificiations?
((lambda x ((x))) (lambda x ((x))))
Why not just channel that energy into linux?
It will save time,money and help provide the rest of the world with a good,free OS.
"Comedy's a dead art form. Now tragedy, that's funny."
This is a ripe time to force some huge donations from the behemoth!
Before everyone comes out to commend this as countries embracing open-source software, it needs to be pointed out that the obvious result of the effort would moreover be the creation of a system with the real, ubiquitous support for the unique Asain languages, in which Windows has always been lacking...
A framework for developing the system would be set up during meetings by government ministers in mid-September, followed by committee meetings involving private-sector specialists from each of the three nations in November.
1) An operating system designed by a committee is going to fail.
2) An operating system controlled by a government is eventually going to be oppressive and restrictive.
J'aime mieux les méchants que les imbéciles, parce qu'ils se reposent. -- Alexandre Dumas
A few years ago microsoft beleived the web was just a game and they were not really interested in it. Then it occured to them that it wasn't going away and there was big money to be made so they jumped into the arena with Explorer, started bullying everyone around, and gave us the tag. I wonder how long it will be before they decide that open source software, and linux in particular, aren't going away and decide they need to be player to stay on top of things. Suddenly we have a microsoft linux distributions that is terrible, breaks a bunch of standards, but is well marketed.
Will it be open source?
Will it be an os designed to screw people over? (as in, drm, tcpa, etc)
Will they simply steal OSS and release it with few changes without honoring the gpl?
Will it be in other languages and availabe to foreigners?
These people are notorious for stealing ideas, and in most cases, modifying them into something better then claiming them as their own. I don't trust foreign companies and goverments any more, and in some cases, less, than I trust my own(US). What is the community to do if they steal it and start selling it stateside?
Candy-Coated Knowledge
an OS to compete with Windows will be made in Finland.
Pull the other one.
KFG
It'll probably end up being a Windows clone so that license fees will not have to be payed to Microsoft. However, Microsoft itself being a behemoth takes years to make new versions. Remember how long it took them to create the NT line that lead up to Windows 2000 and XP? I can't imagine these three countries being any more efficient. Though I will give them credit for their workaholic culture.
ReactOS is getting there and it is Windows compatible.
A programming language is an interface between the machine and the programmer. If a language makes security holes nearly impossible to avoid, you need a better language.
My friend at work from china is a PS2 freak and was mentioning how most of his favourite games are japanese and arent even available here. It seems like China, japan and (south) korea share a common font and any game made in japan enjoys a huge market within those countries.
By making an OS together, they could probably build one from scratch with their native language support without English as the intermediary anywhere in the processes.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
Where do I sign up!?
welcome to MS's nightmare all developing nations working together to do linux based OS to not only get users but alos developers...
so when is the Redmond ligths out party?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
I wonder if Microsoft would be able to block its sales in the US, as people have mentioned here for other interesting systems developed in Asia.
;-)
Let's see; what was the name of that high-reliability open-source OS that that the Japanese are using for things like autos? What ever happened to the notepad computer running linux that was announced over there several years ago, but which is only available in the US with Windows installed?
(What, me paranoid?
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
blink tag was a netscape invention, not M$. in fact, IE never supported the tag. (Probably because it was invented by Netscape, not because it's annoying as hell.)
Microsoft might lose, what, $20 in revenue? Piracy is so bad in Asia, it's a wonder anyone can sell any legit software there, at all.
Must post in Plain Text Mode in order to show my tags!
They will probably write it in Engrish
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
A framework for developing the system would be set up during meetings by government ministers in mid- September, followed by committee meetings involving private-sector specialists from each of the three nations in November.
It looks like a good plan, but I hope the execution is not flawed.
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
This sounds nice and ideological. In keeping with that, it'll be Aspect-Oriented, written in Lisp, and written by smiling students straight out of image libraries
((lambda x ((x))) (lambda x ((x))))
Hmmm sushi! apt-get install unagi-roll
w lib/unagi_4.2.1-11_all.deb Error reading from server - read (104 Connection reset by peer) [IP: 208.185.25.38 80] /jokey joke/
Faired to fetch http://http.us.debian.org/debian/main/fish/raw/ra
E: Unabre to fetch some archives, maybe you are a stupid round eye or try with apt-get instarr caucasianlib0-2.0-dev?
1. It is not "design by committee" - it is policy making by committee.
2. It is not "a government", it is multiple governments which don't all always agree on everything.
Establishing *infrastructure* is beneficial for everyone, so cooperation like this should be welcomed. You might see policy development being slow because of government involvement, but that's how it is when large organizations are involved.
RTFA.
It's quite possible that they don't agree to the terms of the GNU License.
Cwippy: Howry Cow! I see you writing note! You want me assist you?
My company spent a lot of time making a Unicode version of one of our larger web applications, and it does well in the Japanese market. Japan (and I guess Korea and China) are largely excluded from the Western market (as consumers) because of the complexity of supporting their character sets (Katakana, Hirigi, and Kanji in Japan alone).
So Japan, Korea, China share the need for coherent Unicode support in their software at OS and application level. This is something missing from anything one can put together today in the West, either using Windows or Linux.
So this move makes sense, though given the history between these three countries, somewhat unlikely. Perhaps after the successful football world cup, someone has been thinking...
Anyhow, I've said several times that it seems an obvious thing for governments to do, especially ones outside the reach/grip of the US hegemony: invest in local open source, both to encourage the development of local IT and to save money by buying less American junk. China, India, Brazil: these are the countries where the likeliehood of a serious home-grown OSS "industry" is most likely.
Before the "destroying value and US jobs" mob get here, I'll just add my voice saying it's a good thing and all success to them.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
meetings by government ministers
this gonna be a cometee thing, am I right?
Why wouldn't they even consider Mac OS X? The Xserve is a very cheap solution to deploy. eMacs are sub $800 iMac CRTs (still made for edu & gov) are sub $700 iMac LCDs are sub $1000 - G5's are looking like they will be the 4 year without obsolescence computer and could possibly be a long term 7-8 year solution - as most Macs are.
This sounds like to me that some "out of work linux" lobby has managed to hoodwink Asia into some FUD.
Can anyone say WHY 1/4 of the world's population NEEDS a proprietary system? I can understand a move away from an insecure system, but not away from standards are commercially produced hardware and software.
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
that is all.
2) An operating system controlled by a government is eventually going to be oppressive and restrictive.
The Australian Broadcasting Corporation, owned by the Commonwealth Government of Australia, has recently been criticised of being biased. *Against* the Government.
Look out!
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
A committee is a group of individuals who all put in a perfectly good color and it comes out gray.
1) An operating system designed by a committee is going to fail
Why is it going to fail? Has a committee never worked? Isn't this what happens more or less in large companies, ones that build large software systems? For every Linus, there is probably hundreds of incredibly complex pieces of code designed by committees of programmers and managers.
2) An operating system controlled by a government is eventually going to be oppressive and restrictive.
WHY?! Please, take off your tinfoil for a while and go out for some air. not everyone is out to get you. Maybe they just want to offer their citizens, and especially the companies in their country a compelling alternative to American made products with poor support for their languages.
I think the OSS movement should get nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize - getting China to cooperate with Japan is not easy.
I spent some frustrating months trying to swap files back and forth with a Japanese company. If we had been able to convince our respective corporate IT departments to use Linux, it would have been a lot easier.
Yeah, I forgot to change the sign on the site to TeenDot: News for kids. Boring crap for trendy geek wannabees.
My bad,
Rob
Whatever happened to China's Red Flag Linux? They have Server and Desktop flavors available.
doesnt freebsd have a committee?
oh yeah, i forgot that bsd is dead. =)
Gyrate Dot Org - "Where high-tech meets low-life"
Hasn't Japan always made things cheaper and more reliable than the US?
If they can make it run Windows software users can soon start bragging about using Windows, much like the guys riding a Harley.
the impending doom that is the SCO lawsuits?
Besides all the comments that say it won't happen there is the possibility that some interesting things might come of such a project.
They are allowed to do such a thing, or at least try.
It is possible that they start from scratch but can avoid all the hard lessons learned by others. And they don't seem to have political constraints to deal with as TinyOS did.
The Japanese are well known for their technical abilities and expertise and long term perspectives. China is known for their numbers of people that can follow direction. And South Korea is known for their ability to imitate product look and feel.
Is it possible that such mindsets can produce a rock solid OS that is easy to use and safe from attack?
Probably! So lets how they are open source, so we all can learn from them.
Like Python!
Is it just me being too old or is there AdaOS written all over the article
There is small OS in AdaOS waiting to get out.
Yes, and it's called Linux
Anonymous Cowards Unite
(karmacollectortag)
Maybe I am just cynical, but how can China really be embracing OSS when they are the ones with the infamouse 'great firewall'?
In my opinion, they would simply make it so that they (the govt.) are the only ones who handle security etc, so no outside info can get in.
christ...this is like saying people jump higher wearing nike's than they do in reeboks.
their design paradigms need to be re-evaluated...every language you program has the SAME end result...machine code. programming in c or c++ is not going to make sofware less secure if you KNOW WHAT THE "F" YOU ARE DOING.
bottom line, c and c++ provide the flexability for system programmers to control every aspcet of thier code...if a routine call is flawed...then write a new one that isnt...or learn to program better...dont blame it on the damn language.
The only OS mentioned is Minix and he refers to it that if you are tired of everything just running under Minix you might give his kernel a try. Hardly a rousing sales pitch except to geeks.
That is btw Microsofts biggest problem with linux. Where MS got to meet growth targets and keep market share. Linux is free of all that. If one person still enjoys tinkering with it it has met 100% of its goals.
Remember that it is companies like Redhat and Suse that can fail. Linux cannot fail. Neat isn't it.
Disclaimer I am talking about the kernel here. The GNU part has of course always had higher ambitions according to its founders.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Funny, my wife has no problems using Windows 2000 to read and type Chinese on her computer. Previous versions certainly sucked (I have first hand experience on this having lived in Taiwan for 5 years and had to set up both Linux and Windows computers. And until a few years ago getting it working under Linux was no walk in the park) but the support for the very large variety of input methods for Chinese is pretty impressive.
I think Apple could provide a poweful BSD base for the new OS along with good Unicode and Graphics support. If they could convince these 3 countries to start with MacOS X or Darwin they would take a big step forward for market share. Of course there is the issue of hardware costs along with the OS being proprietary or not. I am sure one goal of this new asian-based OS is that they will not be reliant on the US for software. In the very least they could work closely with the development efforts of this new OS to ensure it is MacOS X compatible so they would have an existing set of applications ready to use from day one.
Also for Linux, it is somewhat dated already and I sincerely believe that. But I mean this more in a sense of desktop Linux vs server Linux. The X Windows system is lacking in many areas and other efforts like the open source Berlin or Apple's Quartz is a big step forward. The constant duality of KDE vs Gnome is always an issue. Sure it is nice to have options, but it can also be difficult to understand for new users. When MacOS X came out I was a little upset that there was no theme support, but I quickly accepted it and realized that I should be using the applications instead of making the display look different every other day. And changing the look and feel only serves to confuse users and make tech support more difficult.
Apple was bold enough to scrap OS 9 and move forward with OS X (based on NextStep) because they knew it was a better starting point. I hope China, Japan and South Korea decide they want something better than what Linux and X11 provides.
Brennan Stehling - http://brennan.offwhite.net/blog/
^_^
Hello Kitty my arse
Yet again an Asian country is deciding to use government action to fund an attack on an existing market. Why is our government never going to do anything to respond? Why is it that we have to compete with a culture that lets its people work for 2 cents a day cloning other people's products with government money?
The US should not even trade with these people.
This is my sig.
You don't say! Well, I feel like a moron...
-1, Stupid
To control their destiny? To not have their infrastucture held hostage to foreign export controls? (Can we say PS2/PGP/Supercomputer/Clinton/USA? There, I knew we could.) And since when did American hardware/software (less than 1/20th the world's population) define 'standards'? Standards should be in the data, implementation is still free and open. That's why we have Macs, Suns, StrongArm and PCs. Right?
A 1995 Mac is still a viable platform? Slowly backs away, smiling and nodding, making no sudden moves.....
This may seem like bait, but if these three countries really do work on a joint effort, don't you think they're going to deliberately ruin the software out of hatred for one another ? They may be geographically close, but they're night and day when it comes to politics and century-old grudges that have lost their meaning. There's a reason why most of them are still stuck in the dark ages: it's because they're too busy infighting to realize the whole world has passed them by.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I know it, my brain skipped a beat. Does that sometimes, it's a software problem.
Thank you for pointing it out.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
Cool, what do you suggest? C#, VB, or COBOL perhaps?
In other news Theo De Radt (the shill of OpenBSD) today announced that he was moving to Japan to adivse the tri-country coolition on security matters. The West sighed in relief.
What if it is just turtles all the way down?
So many of you have turned to racist stereotyping to ask the question of whether the software will fail.
Work ethic should not be a part of this thread. I'm sure many of you spend endless nights coding, coffee, and masturbation.
It is not the "oriental community" -- try SE Asian.
"Sneaky Asian" stereotyping is also unfounded.
Hentai, yeah that's original.
Engrish, yes, 'cause all those Asian shirts in the U.S. are written correctly. Especially all these new tattoos.
Are you guys gonna start posting Tiananmen square and Vietnamese (cause everyone knows it goes together) napalm pictures like they do on fark.com? That shit is so funnnnnnnnny.
...redundant, of course, but so is the lament for Asian language support :)
heh
About 1 year ago, this was announced and spoken of. It was at the time thought that it would be Linux with wine.
It is Linows for the far east.
Funny thing is, it will work and will allow other countries to compete against the near monopoly that the USA has on software unless the US software companies start moving to Linux. But MS is trying to stop that with help from a number of friends in high (or low ) places.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I hope they do for Linux what Apple did for BSD--give it an effortlessly-useable GUI. That's the sort of thing the open source community has not shown itself capable of doing. Although commercial interests Red Hat and Mandrake have made progress in this area.
Another amateur radio disaster narrowly averted! Damn those Linux holes!
They are not against the government, only against John Howard and other non-socialists. Once a leftist-socialist is in office they will be pro-government again.
Same as the BBC.
This is a load of crapola. Taiwan (which rejects international copyright law) and China (which has switched to Linux anyway) maybe, but Japan and South Korea?
How would you like it if somebody lumped together the US, Mexico and Cuba?
By contrast, UNIX failed to gain significant marketshare against the onslaught of Windows because there were simply too many incompatible operating systems called UNIX.
If this Japan-China-Korea operating system (JCKOS) gains any significant share in Asia, then we will have 2 incompatiable operating systems: JCKOS and Linux. JCKOS will be similar to Linux but incompatible with it.
What could be the motivation for this stupidity? Japanese society, as a whole, is a Western society, and Japan has slowly been moving from a 2nd-rate Western nation to a 1st-rate Western nation like the United States of America (USA). Unfortunately, due to Japan's proximity to Asian countries like the brutal totalitarian regime called China, there has always been a tension between (1) Japanese bureaucrats who lean towards Asia and (2) Japanese bureucrats who lean towards the USA and the rest of the West. The Western Japanese have usually prevailed over the Asian Japanese. A key example is the USA-Japan defense treaty.
Unfortunately, occasionally, the Asian Japanese prevail in certain matters. We, Slashdotters, should send an e-mail to the Japanese embassy in our Western nations and tell them that this idea for an independent JCKOS is hurtful and harmful to the open-source movement. Also, do the Japanese really want to work with a brutal totalitarian regime like the Chinese, who have routinely beat and kill Tibetan nuns? (reference: Amnesty International and Tibet Online).
Asia is heavily divided, and there is lots of mistrust going on between those countries. I know in my MBA program students from Japan, South Korea and China barely even talk to each other due to historic tensions and conflicts. I am wondering what level of cooperation will there be between those countries in developing this product? Will they be able to cooperate sufficiently to make anything meaningful?
That is the whole point. Windows and Linux have hundreds if not thousands of people who have viewed every line of C code and these bugs are still there.
If their first priority was security then they would use Ada.
anyone remembers PC98 japanese standard ? i hope they will succeed this time ...
This post is displayed with recycled electrons
It's called global competition, and it's been going on for decades.
You know your computer was probably manufactured in China or Taiwan, right?
And your TV.
Maybe your car. Hell, maybe even your fucking toaster.
The point is, if you feel so strongly about this kind of thing, there are plenty of things you can be doing (or avoid doing) to vote with your wallet.
Peace,
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Why don't they just switch to Mac OS X? It's has native Japanese language support and it works great. It also comes out of the box with about 10 nice fonts installed. You can even switch to Japanese language menus. Excuse me, but DUHHHHHHH.
Incidently, a lot of Japanese who are living in the US use Mac OS (all systems).
28FEB2003 ZDNet: "Microsoft signs pact with Chinese government allowing them to view Window's source code." 31AUG2003 Reuters: "China, Japan, Korea to develop Window's replacement." 31AUG2003 Bill Gates: "Doh!"
SCO is a small U.S. company fighting a large U.S. company in a battle they can't win. China is a world super power with over one billion people and nuclear weapons. Do you really think China cares?
Saying the X-Window System is "lacking in many areas" without identifying the areas you think are lacking is baseless criticism. Berlin is unfinished and has a tiny selection of applications compared to the X Window System. Apple Quartz is proprietary; nowadays we should prefer open-source.
You're totally ignoring that humans are writing the code. No one can always right perfect code--so why choose a programming language that lets you make those errors?
if a routine call is flawed...then write a new one that isnt
huh?!? then it's already to late. the whole point is to write something that doesn't have flaws the first time. You are only going to be able to totally eliminate things like buffer overflows when you use a programming language that doesn't let you have them.
A reasonable first step, and one suited for such a consortium, would be to go through all major open-source software and convert it to 100% Unicode-enabled, put all the text into resources, and provide resource files for each of the national languages. Then check all the code back into the major open-source projects.
Obviously with the economies they have, Japan, China and Japan are going to want an OS that does a good job of consumer electronics audio video. Linux at the moment is weak at audio/video and user interface. Windows is also inadequate (although more adequate than Linux) at these tasks.
The article states they might build on Linux. That would make alot of sense. The guts of Linux are solid, it's the user experience that is weak. Laying a 21st century Audio/Video/UI over Linux to create a new OS would leave the current Windows/OSX/Linux/Unix systems behind in the 20th century, to which they all basically belong.
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Yes thats right. The leftist socialist BBC really hates the current Socialist Labour Party. They can't wait for the Tories to get back in power so they can criticise them for a war or something.
Open-source sucks
((lambda x ((x))) (lambda x ((x))))
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
The monitor is ViewSonic, which is a private label of a screen made in Japan.
The car is a Chrysler, but my next car will be either a Ford or a GM.
I avoid buying things made in China. However, since Walmart has no problem waving the flag while it subdizes the export of US jobs, I guess sometimes I do get stuck.
I vote with my wallet, and I vote with my vote as well. Free trade is a joke.
This is my sig.
But will it support my hardware
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Please understand that I do use windows and think it to be a wonderful OS, for certain tasks. As a game machine it is without equal. Sure games crash but then they push the system to its limits and lets face it game producers are hardly know to produce bug free code itself.
For every other task I have gotten fed up with microsoft. I am now running a 2003 machine and it is just as crash prone as xp as 98 as 95 as 3.11 and as dos was. My linux desktop has not had single crash. Oh opera crashes all the time but I do a "killall opera; opera" and it is back exactly where it crashed. Try that with IE or for that matter with Mozilla.
I don't want to see MS fail or driven into the ground. I want market forces to force them to stop adding eye candy and now fix the bloody core itself. Has anyone else noticed that 2003 wich supposdly should have new buffer overflow protection has so far been affected the same as all the other NT's out there?
Perhaps you can compare it to the american car industry wich kept making its cars flashier with more and more chrome attached while they became less reliable and ever greater gass guslers. Enter the japanese with tiny boring cars that worked and they forced the americans to finally change.
So the east to the rescue again. I will belief it when I see it, they haven't even gotten a logo yet everyone knows opensource needs a cute logo, but for now I prefer to be positive.
mmm What about the penguin from Evangelion, Pen Pen as the logo? Pen Pen
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Good. Open-source rocks
((lambda x ((x))) (lambda x ((x))))
1) An operating system designed by a committee is going to fail.
What? You mean like Multics? But that's everywhe... oh...
Ada is secure becasue you can't develop code with any degree of efficiency.
Thats BS and you should know it. If you don't, you are not only anonymous, but ignorant.
Here is a start for you to educate yourself.
How about ...
... Asian-ux.
Chi-nux
It's simpler, or
At the deepest level, I would suspect they wan't something with source code in an asianic script instead of C++. This would make it a LOT more accessible to their populations. It would also be a source of national/regional pride since they wouldn't have to use a foreign language in order to build software.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
"All I ask that they please write it in a language other than C or C++."
Please.
Yes, the world would arguably be a better place if applications were written in higher-level languages. But system-level stuff like operating system kernels? A relatively low-level language is required. Heck, some of the stuff that operating systems do requires assembly.
How about... RICENIX ?
Welcome to worm.com
Hacked by Chinese!
Now, not only have you "open-source" folks helped corporate America in their brutality of the American people (economic slavery by an entity that is only defined on paper), but now the even-worse folks in China will use all your expertise and hard-work to further their efforts to dominate their people to produce more cheap plastic trinkets for the idiots in the US.
.sig generator too pissed off to generate :-( :-) true peace & happiness is only a wish away...
One poster's sig said it best: "Think free as in working for IBM for free." Now you can add: "Think free as in helping the folks who massacred peaceful civilian protesters in Tieneman Square."
I know y'all have good hearts, want to give stuff away and generally dislike greed, but if you developed a nuclear weapon, would you just "share" it with any person who said "yeah, I'd like to use that"? Cmon. There is probably no greater weapon at anyone's disposal than information, and we all know that China has no interest in its free flow (and you have to ask yourself "does America?" really?).
I'll leave my work closed-source, thank you, but share it with any individual pursuing freedom for all, peace among all groups of people and sustainable prosperity for all persons on Earth. The rest of `em can write me a fat check.
Get a clue.
-bmac
Manual
go to www.mihr.com anyway
Brief History of Character Codes
It's going to be hard to name anything based on "Linux" for them.
Japanese don't have L, so they would name Ri-nu-so
Chinese don't have pure R, and it would be Li-nu-ks there.
I don't have a clue on what would be the least multiplier, but definitely it would be bizarre.
For most people who just use office apps and browse the internet, a 1995 Mac is an EXCELLENT platform.
Use the HURD, microkernels are the way of the future :)
Joking aside, I hope they don't use Linux - it would be good to see this scale of effort into something new, hell maybe even a microkernel based OS.
Linux is doing fine without them, and maybe they could increase the competition...
1) An operating system designed by a committee is going to fail.
2) An operating system controlled by a government is eventually going to be oppressive and restrictive.
Of course if this were true then TCP/IP (yes I do not it is not an OS) would be obsolete and the Internet would have long since been abandoned.
Right wing libertarians need to do better than spout this "government is evil" tripe. It's a sort of trotskyism in reverse, and it's just as boring and stupid.
we have SpamOS, the world's first spam-promoting OS.
(I haven't seen any non-spam mail from these two countries yet).
An interesting alternative way that was tried a few years back was by a company called Prime. They wrote their OS (Primos) in Fortran. I used to program on their machines back then and it worked surprisingly well.
The company lasted around 15 years but then foundered for various reasons:
- They sold minicomputers and the market died a horrible death when mass-market PCs became available which offered somewhat less performance (back then) for 1/1000 of the price. The economies of scale.
- Just when they were having to tackle this threat (the mid 80's), another company launched a very hostile takeover bid. The measures that Prime took to fight this company off sucked away so many resources that they were doomed.
Pity, they made good machines.I know very little about BEos. Was in *nix compatable? (not necessarily a plus, *nix's design is not perfect) and was it written in C? (probably yes).
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
So, what you're saying is that there is no advantage in using one programming language over another? REALLY?
Why aren't we writing everything in PL/I, FORTRAN 66, ALGOL 68 and COBOL today instead of C and C++? After all, as you point out, its all machine code at the end, right?
Oh, its those language features.
Well, maybe there is a reason for picking one language over another after all. Gee, who would've thought that a language with specific features can actually assist you in the process of writing reliable software.
The bottom line is that C and C++ as languages, not to mention the various implementations and libraries, have some serious issues when it comes to writing reliable software that methadology changes alone aren't going to cure in a practical sense. You admonition to just "learn to program better" as a work around for the problems in C isn't helpful. Your suggestion to rewrite the C library, apparently on a routine for routine basis when you figure out its broken, just points to how bad off things are.
There is at least one other (more actually) language that offers the low level control of C, the object orientation of C++, more buit-in safeguards in the language to help catch bugs and prevent stupid errors: Ada 95. With GCC supporting it maybe more people will try it. It is a better language for software engineering, but I doubt that it will ever really be popular. Most people would rather just hack away than attempt to do any serious work in the design phase.
C is powerful, but like a chainsaw it makes it too easy to cut your own leg off. There are other tools just as powerful, and a whole lot safer for all involved.
They want "an inexpensive and trustworthy system", get real.
I completely disagree ...
we may be 1/20 the world's population (actually it's 1/8 to be accurate) but we consume 40% of the world's goods!!! AND we house 60% of it's wealth - excluding oil empires - so YES we should set standards!
It sure is! I'm typing this on a 1995 mac (Powermac 7600). 2 years ago I upgraded the processor to a G3 with a simple daughtercard swap. It's currently running the latest OSX release. It has 560mb of ram (out of a possible 1GB), 18GB scsi and 60GB ATA-133 hard drives and a year-old CD-RW. I also installed a cheap USB card to connect my digital camera.
-- "At Microsoft, quality is job 1.1" -- PC Magazine, Nov. 1994
I wish our government would pay us to work and develop an OS that doesn't look like swiss cheese.
ps the software you hawk on your website is retarded. Nobody wants to be insulted by a puppy for playing checkers poorly. I wish some Asian would make a better one running off a tamagochi or some shit.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
you are bad.
Standing at the very edge of my imagination, I peered into the inky void and realised -- I couldn't think up a new sig.
They could write it in Ada or Modula-3. I can't think of a reason why you couldn't write 99.9% of an operating system in Ada. Compiler and computer technology has advanced quite a bit since the days of UNIX V7 and the Portable C Compiler.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
The Japanese have far too much pride in their product to allow mistakes out the door.
If you claim that Japanese companies consider exporting Engrish to be an embarrassment, then please explain the quality of text in the opening cut scene of the Sega Genesis version of Zero Wing.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Less than 20% of the population of Japan was even BORN at the time of WWII. And, I suspect, neither were you. And OF that 20% that were alive during WWII, the bulk of them were toddlers at the time, and had nothing to do, whatsoever, with the war.
Mention "Nanking" to the average Japanese person of my generation, and he/she'll probably just think it's just some new Pokemon. These are not the same warmongering types as their distant ancestors. I *DO* have a handful of Japanese friends my age; some born here in the US, some immigrants. And they are the nicest, most non-violent, people you could imagine; and have sort of an innocence of the evils of the world about them. Certianly, they are far more virtuous than YOU, as your own post proves.
And the country as a whole has have made an astoundingly admirable transition from wartime imperialists to exporters of Pokemon, Hello Kitty, and Dance Dance Revolution; and cars end electronics superior to those you'll find anywhere else. Truely a much better example of "swords to plowshares" than you'll find anywhere else.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
All I ask that they please write it in a language other than C or C++. Linux has tons of security holes. Most of those security holes exist only because the software was written in one of the least secure languages in the industry.
How the fuck did this flame-bait shit get modded "Interesting?" Moderators, lay down the crack pipe.
In fact, there is no such fucking thing as a "secure language" or "non-secure language." A language is just a language... applications are secure or not secure depending predominantly on factors like:
The skills of the programmers working on them
Corporate culture
Software process
etc.
and not the language they are written in. Now granted, certain languages may *emphasize* security, or make it easier to achieve good security, but no language is intrinsically secure or not-secure in and of itself.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
Comment removed based on user account deletion
programming in c or c++ is not going to make sofware less secure if you KNOW WHAT THE "F" YOU ARE DOING.
Of course, the programmers who created C didn't, because they created gets, which is unusuable unless a buffer overflow is part of the design.
if a routine call is flawed...then write a new one that isnt
I bet you wouldn't mind if you were driving a car, and tried to put into the wrong gear, it blew up. There are so many buffer overflows that cause major security holes that could be fixed by using a different language. Good engineers build things that take into account human failability.
+5 Funny
There is no good engineering reason to build an independent operating system (OS) -- i. e. one which is independent of Linux. However, there seem to be political reasons.
The open source proponents don't believe that working on free software is giving the chinese anything. (Or IBM for that matter)
Of course they don't believe that (nor is that their intent), but what people believe is actually often very far from the truth. Open source software is giving the software to *anyone/everyone*. If they steal it, use in a proprietary product and don't acknowledge it (you think the Chinese govt is going to abide by the license(s) that OSS incorporates?), the only recourse is to sue, and I don't think that the open-source movement has the resources for all that. And as a low-level programmer, I don't want to be the one who has to try to figure out exactly what compiled modules are stolen by disassembling and comparing - yuck!
My point is that we software folks tend to be rather socially conscious (broad overstatement, I know) - even Bill Gates gives *tons* of money in charity each year. I would rather see the results of our hard work go to creating a source of money to promote the free flow of information (here in America as well as in countries like China). Giving our technically superior work to those who abuse others only hurts ourselves in the process. Ne?
Peace & blessings,
bmac
I think it makes sense. Windows is packed full of vulnerabilities that from a strategic standpoint, are unacceptable to even home users. When you consider the needs of unicode languages, they should also come up with a new keyboad standard too.
Rindows?
To think that they'd invest all that time, research, energy, and human sweat into creating a whole new operating system, especially when they are so short of the special expertise needed to achieve such a Herculean task! But perhaps we've seriously underestimated the eastern powers. We could be falling behind; we could be in extreme danger as a result, besieged from all sides by our ever-powerful enemies, no longer able to pursue the American Dream. That is why we must skip sending a man to Mars and instead finance a manned expedition to ...Pluto!
*WE* should not attempt this because it is easy, but because it is *hard*. By sending the first man to Pluto, we will send a message to the other countries of the world: don't FUCK with us. But don't worry, whenever we actually get that man to Pluto, we can get him to put up a nice plaque on some big boulder on Pluto with some nice magnanimous platitudes written on the plaque, and we'll capture it all on television and make sure the astronaut doesn't flub his lines.
Now, to those who would protest this exercise because of its expense, I would remind them that I didn't say that once we got the man over to Pluto, we don't necessarily have to bring him back. And if that doesn't shut you up, I volunteer for the mission myself!
" I would be more than happy to suck your dick" of course he would, being a proud member of the Gay nigger association! What else could you expect?
I predict they'll make huge progress on this joint effort, but then the project will fork because of huge problems accomodating all the different 16-bit character encoding schemes and the disparity in the number of nukes each country has.
Saw a note that California, if it were a country .... it would be the 4th largest GDP in the world!!!
Yell & scream & rant & rave... it's no use... you need a shaaaave ~ Bugs Bunny
Cool, what do you suggest? C#, VB, or COBOL perhaps?
I suspect that the parent poster would appreciate a completely secure kernel written in.... ForTran... No buffer overruns but of limited utility....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
CTLR-ART-DER
AT&ROFLMAO
31AUG2003 Reuters: "China, Japan, Korea to develop Window's replacement."
31AUG2003 Bill Gates: "Doh!"
Third I hope the don't start writing the programs in Chinese in the hope of avoiding the best virus and worm writers - who I doubt would go thru the trouble of learning Chinese to be able to penetrate this new system ...
...
Why does it matter to you what language they write their programs in (although from what I know most Chinese programmers write their programs in the same programming languages we do). Chinese does not seem suited for prorgramming in, and most Chinese programs do speak English.
Fifth One Great Wall of China is more than enough. We don't want a "Great Wall of China, Japn, and Korea," and no matter what they say, it is NOT going to be the Eighth Wonder of the World
What is this? They want to make their own operating system, that's all. It's not the beginning of these countires shutting themselves off from world trade. I personally doubt the usefulness of such an initiative, believing the best OSs come from programmers, not governments. But could you imagine the value of an operating system designed for Asian languages? Imagine if you were using an operating system that had been translated from Russian. It might be workable, even decent, but it would never be quite perfect for you. The same applies for these languages, although even more so with Chinese character sets.
I understand Korea's desire to be involved but it makes less sense to me because their language is completely different from the other two. Perhaps they're hoping to make it a compatible with all Asian languages? Cool.
Let's not forget about the fact that the South Korea is the most "wired" country of all. With their communication ability, they could probably insert more reliable communication functionality into their OS.
buffering...
Different country, different set of copyright rules... And remember its the 'goverment', they can change the rules as they please.
Doubt it will be released as OSS, they cant have the hidden anti-freespeech and backdoor controls revealed, can they?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
they've treated to nuke them all of they wouldn't develop 'Windows for the communist masses'.
Indeed. Developing a fully-functional and modern Operating System would be a great achievement for all of Asia, whose peoples sorely lack contribution to programming worldwide.
I suggest you read Slashdot
....it won't be inexpensive.
...it won't be trustworthy.
I have been living and working here in Osaka for ten years and throughout that time have yet to find a government group that does anything "cheap". Everything is done as a "marunage" which means jacking up the price by hiring a company which hires a company which hires a company to do the work. Most likely most of the work for this will happen in China. I worked at a company that sold the equivalent of an 80 dollar US
because the government will make sure there are all kinds of neat little "secret" ways to get access. That is to say the committee in charge of security will most likely have lots of LDP party members who have never touched a computer involved and they will be saying things like "now, its gonna be used by the government workers and the public be so we gotta be able to have remote root access!"
Sound familiar to anybody?
Like China, Japan, and South Korea can agree to anything other than hating each other
At some poit Isaak Newton discovered that an apple falls down due to gravity. Moreover, he describe his idea mathematically. For centures all people use that idea for their work. Do they steal Newton's idea?
For one more time: no one can steal any idea from you as it doesn't belong to you. The historical fact of discovering the idea belong to you. But the idea - not. It has been existing in this Universe always, before you. And it will be existing forever, even after you.
But for one thing I am very glad about your post: you call software as ideas:
"These people are notorious for stealing ideas, and in most cases, modifying them into something better then claiming them as their own".
That's right. Software is just one or another notation of various computer-related ideas. Therefore, it is not possible to steal the software.
So leave them alone. If they want to use software, modify it and even sale modifications - no problem. All they have to do is just follow licenses and copyrights. If they will modify Linux and sell it along with the source code of their modifications - what's wrong with it? RMS will be just happy. And I don't see any reason why they would not want to open source their modifications? Especially in a socialist/communist China, where all IP belong to the People :)
Less is more !
If we learned anything from history, it's that these three countries can NEVER work together. Throughout history, two or three of these countries were ALWAYS at war. Times of peace of were few and far between. Even now, they hate each other. Look at sports competitions. One them wouldn't care if they lost to a western country, but they're forever shamed if they lose to one another. Korea, for example, could care less if they lose to the U.S., Germany, Zimbabwe, etc. But they'll kill to beat Japan. Same with China.
And you expect them to hold hands and create something as complex as an operating system? Maybe they can create an application. Maybe they can create something (anything) if only two of the countries were involved. But all three? No fucking way! The Chinese are too arrogant, Koreans too sloppy and Japanese too snobbish for anything to get accomplished. Add to this the fact that their governments will get involved, and this whole idea borders on being farcical.
Don't get me wrong, I wish they could work together, and I would love for them to create a windows replacement (God knows we need it). And I remember having problems with Korean and Japanese in the days of windows 95. It's pretty much gone after Win98se came out though. Now, it's pretty well done and I use Korean windows as my main OS.
However, it will never work. Take it from a person who know the history and culture of all three of these countries, it simply will not work. If by some miracle of heaven, they were to create even a working basis, they would not know how to share the glory. I mean for chrissakes, they bicker about how Korea seeded Japan, China seeded Korea, etc. even to this day. They're constantly knocking down each other's language, mythology, culture, history, education, looks, fucking patterns, so on and on.
If any of you out there really, truly believe that this ludicrous idea will be realized in any form in our lifetime, you have another serious think coming.
Following the fact that it's at least mostly communist countries developing this, the obvious (yet horrible, as my karma will take a gigantic hit) thing to do is something that is not favored, I guess...
In Soviet Russia, OS develops you!
SCO files lawsuits against the countries of China, Japan and Korea! Anyways, all joking aside, they are gonna have one tough task up ahead of them. Even though Japanese borrowed characters from the Chinese, they are used in totally different ways. In Chinese, each character represents a certain sound, and that's it. You string together words like you normally would (phonographic), the only problem being that there is about a zillion characters. Japanese, on the other hand, is ideographic. Each group of characters is read differently depending on the context. So each character can have several different phonetic sounds associated with it, depending on the other characters immediately preceeding and following it. And that's just Chinese and Japanese. I don't even know the complications that the Korean writing system would bring to the table. The best idea I can think of off the top of my head is to map each base character, ones that are most frequently used to create other characters, to each key on the keyboard and use some sort of shifting to access them and string them together.
I hope our future Asain Masters care about us. No Really no troll.
All those improvements mean its no longer a 1995 Mac. Hell, some of those pieces weren't hardly available in 1995 (560 megs of ram in '95? 78 gigs of scsi/ata-133 speed hard drives?! a usb digital camera?)
/. Nevermind. Go back to NOT thinking, just like the sheep you are...
Com'on now. Think. Oh, crap this is
I looked at that site - I run linux, I have none of those vulnerabilities. Apart from a handful of kernel vulns, those are all applications with bugs, not _linux_. phpsysinfo is _not_ linux (grabbing a random vuln off their list).
If I have a CGI script that contains the line
print `$FORM{'REQUESTED_COMMAND'}`;
or a C/C++ equivalent routine, then would you say it was a "security hole"? It permits the remote execution of arbitrary code, so surely it must be a security hole?
There is no OS, and there can be no sufficiently functional OS, that is invulnurable to that "security hole". If you show me such an OS, I'll show you an OS which is unable to run simple CGI scripts, and thus not sufficiently functional.
YAW.
Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
"""
Of course, the programmers who created C didn't, because they created gets, which is unusuable unless a buffer overflow is part of the design
"""
Bullshit. What makes you think that every piece of code that uses gets will suffer buffer overflows? Why can't a forked pair of tasks have an internal and private interface using gets? I can give you a 10 line example that you won't be able to exploit if you're really stuborn.
Of course, I'd never use it myself, I typically don't trust the coders on the other side of the interface to code themselves out of a wet paper bag, so paranoia is generally worth it.
Just because it's broken doesn't mean every usage of it causes something to break. Even broken matchsticks can be used to separate tiles when renovating your bathroom.
YAW.
Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
Come on. Do you really believe China, Japan and South Korea can work together well enough to produce a good product? We're talking about a government sponsored project for creating a good OS. Privatized companies, which are FAR more efficient than governments already have a hard enough time doing this. Best you will get is a mediocre Linux distribution.
The point isn't whether the people involved work for government or private sector. It's that "ministers" instead of "specialist" are laying the groundwork for the plan.
At least that's a valid point... hopefully that's what he was aiming for.
filed under the 'one more group trying to reinvent the wheel' I cannot see why they simply do not use a flavor of Linux. They can easily modify the source to fit their specific security needs, and they will not have to waste years catching up with the rest of us.
-Cnik
WTF is this? This guy posted the same exact thing twice in this topic, and both have been modded 3+ funny.
:rolleyes:
I think this guy is a karma whore.
eTrade SUCKS
What about a name? I saw someone suggest Asianux. Assuming they base it off a linux or *BSD kernel ("all your base are belong to us" will finally be realized) I suggest they use this to underline their rejection of SCO's claims by calling it AUX.
China, Japan, and South Korea, getting together for anything? I know some Chinese folk, and the hatred between those three groups is palpable. They must really perceive U.S. interests, as represented by the proliferation of Microsoft software, as extremely threatening.
The other scenario would be that the screaming incompetence of Microsoft, as evidenced during the last few weeks, is a more powerful force than years of bitter intercultural hatred. It would be funny to see MS spin this - with XP you can fly, but Win2003 will bring about world peace!
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
Project Pink. Now everone say it with me: HAHAHahahAHAhahAHAHAHA! Get real. This has about as much chance to fly as an airplane made out of gauze, popsicle sticks, and chewing gum.
;)
It flew once, hundreds of inches above the water. So there.
As Japan, China, and South Korea all have different written languages (I don't know by how much they differ tho), it seems they would have to settle on one particular language.
And for the life of me I cannot think of a programming language that is actually written in a Far Eastern language at all. If there is one, I would like to know how it compares to C, java, etc.
-phish
Asian computer users just want their OSes to work without fuss. Using linux means you have to understand the geeky insides. Just because there's a GUI (and a nice one in KDE) doesn't mean its easy to use.
Japanese people in particular HATE using computers. There's still a nerdy stigma attached to it like how it was in North America in the 70s-80s and home PC users prefer Mac because it doesn't remind them of their work environment.
This new OS will likely be based on standards, easy to use, and will treat CKJ users as first-class citizens. Linux has the worst IMEs I've ever used. The word suggestions were totally off, the installation wasn't that easy, toggling between roman characters and Japanese wasn't always easy and sometimes I had to shut a program down and start it up again to use it in English, and lastly the Japanese font rendering hurt my eyes. Only die hard PC fans in Japan use it.
BeOS even beats Linux out in Japanese support and ease of use.
I bought my Chrysler before the merger.
What's ignorant? Of course I know that companies are outsources and overseas out the wazoo. But I need a car and so I try to buy the car that is a compromise between what is best for me and my community.
I used to work for RCA. Believe me I know that there has not been a picture tube manufactured in the United States since RCA went down the tubes 20 years ago. Still, were there a decent screen made in the USA, I would buy it.
The issue for me is that I was a staunch believer in free trade - I supported Reagan in a liberal high school, and I believed that at some point the promises of a better society would happen. They simply have not. None of the promises of globalization and rampant capitalism have yet to materialize despite having 20 years to run this experiment.
I'm waiting for the world to get a better standard of living, but, every indicator out there shows the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, and at a rate higher than they did in the supposedly oppressive 1960s. It used to be that everyone could afford college, and now it is moving more and more out of reach. It used to be that everyone could afford a new car, and those are moving out of reach. To own a house, both the mother and father must work.
There used to be a notion in the United States, that, if you worked hard enough, you could get ahead. That was the American dream. Now, if you work hard enough, your job will get shipped overseas. I can't understate the corrosive effect that this will have on our society, and if you can't see that, then you are the one that is ignorant.
This is my sig.
Talk is cheap, unless it's slander, but show me the OS. Show me the OS. Show me the OS.
Granted, Japan, Korea, and China are not well known for their software prowess, but Computer Associates' Jasmine database is a Fujitsu product.
Which brings me to my question: I will be undertaking a project to create a massive object-oriented database, with individual objects possibly several gigabytes in size. Anyone have experience with Jasmine? Does it live up to the Computer Associates hype? Or is it just another piece of crap?
programming in c or c++ is not going to make sofware less secure if you KNOW WHAT THE "F" YOU ARE DOING.
So, apparently it is your contention that, over time, none of the programmers working on the Linux kernel, NFS, NIS, RPC, Apache, Sendmail, emacs, Xwindows, samba, ftpd, Windows NT, IIS, etc., etc., etc., have actually known what they are doing since all of them have produced all manner of security problems?
this is like saying people jump higher wearing nike's than they do in reeboks.
No, its not. Its more akin to saying that you are safer in a car that has seatbelts, airbags, antilock breaks, and a proximity warning system than in an old beater without any of the above. C is the beater, it provides few safeguards against all manner of programming problems.
Process only gets you so far. If all that mattered in the real world was process and all-knowing programmers, we would still all be writing almost all software in FORTRAN and produce it defect free. Last time I looked, most software was written in C/C++ and bug ridden. ( BTW - Don't kid yourself, people have done a heck of a lot of system programming in FORTRAN over the years.) If you can't identify the weaknesses of the C/C++ languages, particularly when writing large software systems, you don't know what you are talking about.
I find it ironic that you think that the "design paradigm" of programs needs to be looked at, but apparently not the "design paradigm" of programming languages, or the effect that their use has when used to produce programs, especially large software systems. Apparently you believe that there are no practical differences that result from using FORTRAN, B, BCPL, C, COBOL, ML, Basic, Pascal, Module 2, Occam, Ada, forth, Prolog, or Lisp since they all produce machine code. Right.
Before you spout off again, try spending some time perusing the material at the Carnegie Mellon Software Engineering Institute. You might learn something.
Of course, the programmers who created C didn't, because they created gets, which is unusuable unless a buffer overflow is part of the design
Bullshit. [...] YAW.
So there exist some rare situations where someone could possibly trust the other side enough to use gets, which most programmers wouldn't use and would gain you nothing over fgets, these situations being rare enough not to justify adding a function to the standard C library.
At best, there's a minor technical flaw in what I said; that hardly makes it bullshit or what I said all wrong. Plonk.
Ok, rephrased:
A student in Finland will create an OS for the fun of it, that uncexpectedly turns out to compete with Windows.
"If one person still enjoys tinkering with it it has met 100% of its goals."
Actually, when MS finally drops windows and sells it to a company in Utah, then that company will turn around and sue somebody big while claiming that Linux infringes on Windows 'IP'.
you sure about those "ministers" are not "specialist"?
Although it'd be a bitch to write system level code inside a sandbox.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
no matter how safe the car is...it wont help you if you are a shitty driver.
i dont recall, even once, arguing the fact that some languages are more adept for tackling certain types of problems...although, you cannot argue that c has been the language of choice of most system designers (using words like most means that i am acknowledging the fact that other languages have been used to write os'). i was just speaking out against the original posters instance that by using a different language...the result would be more secure systems...which is pure bullshit...you may be solving one set of problems...but there will always be new ones to complain about.
dude
Well the article is vague about what the private sector specialists are specialists OF but I should hope they would be better qualified than politician like a minister of anything.
Bullshit! I bought the machine in '99 (when it was almost 4 years old) because it was expandable. Although it shipped with only 32mb of ram and a 1GB scsi disk, it was built to accept up to 1GB of ram. It was built with the CPU on a daughter card for easy upgrades. It was built with 3 empty PCI slots. It's got the original motherboard, case & power supply. Sure, it's a better machine, but it's still the same machine. All I did was plug in stuff it was built to accept:
-- "At Microsoft, quality is job 1.1" -- PC Magazine, Nov. 1994
ADA and COBOL were both developed by comittee rather than by a company. And, Man, do they suck.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
If it's on the internet, it must be true. I don't believe this for a second.
Expect Trade restrictions on os and other software like quotas and tariffs. Hey! The US farmers already get paid not to farm!
You've go to be jokeing. China, Korea and Japan all
use very differnt languages; count four. Or the
five alphabetes used by these countries, all but
one of them is used in only one coutry.
"Asianic script instead of C++"? The linux kernel
is written in C, not C++, and the common language
between these three countries is English. And what
the hell does a spoken language have to do with a
compiled language?
Talk about waving the moron flag.
Hey moron, since when was Chinese a programming language? Stop being so afraid of Asia. Unless you work for Microsoft, this is a good thing. The enemy of your enemy is your friend.
All else being equal, that is true. But, it is widely recognized that some vehicles drive easier / better than others. In other words, some vehicles make it harder to be a good driver than others. C feels fast and light, but it has an unfortunate tendency to crash when used in building large software systems due to some design choices in the language.
It isn't just the case that "some languages are more adept for tacking certain types of problems," but in fact that different languages put to the same task can produce different results.
Here is one example, and here is another. Note that this is a separate issue from suitability or special abilities for a particular problem type. For example, Lisp and Prolog are (from what I've skimmed) 2x more efficient than Ada (and probably C) for coding AI related programs.
i was just speaking out against the original posters instance that by using a different language...the result would be more secure systems...which is pure bullshit...you may be solving one set of problems...but there will always be new ones to complain about.
There are two basic causes of security problems associated with the programmer (as opposed to the user): program design problems, and implementation problems. Program design problems aren't likely to be effected by the programming language per se, but the practices that a language encourages can effect program design.
"The tools we use have a profound (and devious) influence on our thinking habits, and, therefore on our thinking abilities". - Dijkstra
The second class of problems is implementation problems, or more specifically programmer errors. These can definitely be effected by the choice of programming language. There are no pointer errors in java because there are no pointers. Ada catches many problems that would have to be found during debugging with C, if they were found at all by the programmer. When the language makes a type of error impossible, or catches it at compile time, the programmer doesn't have to do it. The result is better code. In this case, more secure code. When that language encourages better program design, so much the better.
FWIW - Dijkstra had some strong views on programming languages and their suitability for use, including:
As a default language, C isn't the worst, but it is by no means the best available today either.
There were some efforts to create a korean programming language and its environment including the compiler in south korea a decade ago. One of the commercial product released in 1994 but died a few years later was called "SEED" named in the hope that it would be a starting point of such products. It wasn't an innovative programming language as it's an ordinary procedural programming language in which all the keywords were korean and all user-defined words could be written in korean language. Just check out seed.giffor its screen shot.
30 years ago these meant inferior products. This still applies to software. Who would pay money for this stuff?
> seed.gif
Forbidden /bacon/seed.gif on this server.
You don't have permission to access
Peckerhead!
Sure, it *could* be considered "secure," but are you telling me it's not possible to write exploitable, insecure code in Java or Python?
Java and Python give you mechanisms to help make your code more secure, but I still disagree that it makes sense to label the language itself as intrinsically secure.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
China already joined WTO
n/a.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"""
to justify adding a function to the standard C library
"""
I'd like to see your evidence that fgets predates gets.
For some bizarre reason I don't think you have any.
YAW, who has no problem having the last word.
Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.