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A world where everyone has to pay $15 to buy any book because Public Domain ceased to exist is a damn sight better than a world where those books don't exist.

Possibly. However, I have two problems, both relating to overly broad protection of derivative works: First of all, parody is not copyright infringement, but such a case can often be too expensive for an individual to defend. Second, it can be proved that there exist a limited number of melodies in Western musical scales. If somebody manages to get a perpetual copyright on every single melody, then no future songwriter will be able to write anything new.

The argument currently being made that the laws are not specifying a limited time because Congress will just extend it in the future is very shaky legally.

Hypothetical law: "Resolved, That it is the policy of the Congress of the United States to enact a 20-year copyright term extension every 20 years." Legal or illegal?

It's MY statement, not theirs. They can go write something of their own if they have something to say.

What if most of the 30,000 possible "statements" have been used up?

At least some authors/publishers are not that dumb.

I just read a great book that talks about "Inappropriate Technology" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. The book is available for free at the Baen Free Library. It is a great read and was very enjoyable. Really puts a different perspective on "good" and "bad" technology. Funny that they used the same term for the show.

Actually.. no. One side has put up at least on example with concrete numbers. Here it is: Prime Palaver #6. Sharing makes the copyright holder more money. Granted, this case is books not music where the experience rift between the downloaded version and the store version is greater but it is still the only hard and backed-up numbers we've seen to date.

"We've yet to see hard numbers on what the marketing effects of piracy are," McNealy noted.

What happens to basic plotlines? What happens to literary devices? What happens to _words_?

Art does not occur in a vacuum. All artists stand on the shoulders of those who came before. We rely on previous generations and our contemporaries to provide us with inspiration, to open new directions to pursue, to give us something to react to.

You implicitly insult Shakespeare, who recycled material constantly. You insult Picasso, who truthfully noted that great artists steal. Hell, you insult Spider Robinson who's specifically rebutted this stupid argument before.

Total originality would be completely alien and incomprehensible. It's worthless. A mixture of original and derivative elements is absolutely necessary. There are multitudes of excellent derivative works in existance. Disney's had their fair share.

But good writing pops up in surprising places -- I've read fan fiction that was not only superior to the original source material, but could probably do quite well if it were released commercially.

Honestly, what the hell do you think countless generations of now-unknown people did but retell each other's stories, changing them slightly as they went along? It's a good thing, and absolutely to be encouraged! (which is why we do, if you actually bothered to study the intent of copyright law)

Cobra is from Zahn's earlier writings.. can't remember if it's back in print at the moment, you may have to comb used books stores. It's a very decent example of military sci-fi, but has an... aged feel. Much the same tone as a lot of novels from the Vietnam war era.

I haven't read too much of Zahn.. Warhorse was an interesting standalone, and not too stereotypical.
The Thrawn trilogy is very good, IMHO head and shoulders above the rest of the Star Wars novels. Spinneret was a good, light, read. Deadman switch is, well, weird. It's a suspense novel, so it isn't nearly as good a read the second time, but was quite riveting the first time.

.. just checked. Cobra, and it's sequels (which I have not found) are all out of print.

If you like Military Sci-fi, I heartily recommend David Webber's Honor Harrington series. The first two books in the series are available in the Baen Free Library.

"Melancholy Elephants." Available online at baen here.

Spider Robinson's story

Yes, this is good reading about this very issue. Go read it right now.

" '[Endless copyright would be the] worst psychic trauma the race has yet suffered.... There are eighty-eight notes. ...I do not know the figure for the maximum possible number of melodies-- too many variables-- but I am sure it is quite high. I am certain that it is not infinity..... Do you know what it is like to be a composer these days, Senator?' "

For the people who can't quite manage to read dense legal briefs, there is another great writer who has tried to get our message across, and succeded rather well. Spider Robinson wrote Melancholy Elephants to get the point across to people who don't care. If you know someone who figures that this just doesn't matter to him, and doesn't want to be bored by discussing it, loan him this short story.

If I wear out a paperback rereading it multiple times, I will sometimes buy the hardcover instead of buying another paperback. I did this with The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

If it's one of top three favorite authors, I'll buy the hardcover. I don't want to wait 6-9 months for the paperback, I want my Lois McMaster Bujold novel now!

And since this is Slashdot, I'll put in the obligatory open source plug. Most of Bujold's books are published by Baen Books. Baen Books has free introductory chapters online for most of its new books, paid web subscriptions for many books, and a few complete books online for free in its Free Library. I'll close with a quote from Eric Flint in his introduction to the Free Library.

In the course of this debate, I mentioned it to my publisher Jim Baen. He more or less virtually snorted and expressed the opinion that if one of his authors -- how about you, Eric? -- were willing to put up a book for free online that the resulting publicity would more than offset any losses the author might suffer.

The minute he made the proposal, I realized he was right. After all, Dave Weber's On Basilisk Station has been available for free as a "loss leader" for Baen's for-pay experiment "Webscriptions" for months now. And -- hey, whaddaya know? -- over that time it's become Baen's most popular backlist title in paper!

If I wear out a paperback rereading it multiple times, I will sometimes buy the hardcover instead of buying another paperback. I did this with The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

If it's one of top three favorite authors, I'll buy the hardcover. I don't want to wait 6-9 months for the paperback, I want my Lois McMaster Bujold novel now!

And since this is Slashdot, I'll put in the obligatory open source plug. Most of Bujold's books are published by Baen Books. Baen Books has free introductory chapters online for most of its new books, paid web subscriptions for many books, and a few complete books online for free in its Free Library. I'll close with a quote from Eric Flint in his introduction to the Free Library.

In the course of this debate, I mentioned it to my publisher Jim Baen. He more or less virtually snorted and expressed the opinion that if one of his authors -- how about you, Eric? -- were willing to put up a book for free online that the resulting publicity would more than offset any losses the author might suffer.

The minute he made the proposal, I realized he was right. After all, Dave Weber's On Basilisk Station has been available for free as a "loss leader" for Baen's for-pay experiment "Webscriptions" for months now. And -- hey, whaddaya know? -- over that time it's become Baen's most popular backlist title in paper!

Status quo is what it's all about, in many things.

The RIAA is afraid of things they don't think they can control. They don't want to lose the control, or even think about losing just a little of it.

A lot of the Big Bands, the RIAA's best little moneymakers, are afraid of someone better than them but less known stepping up and getting popular.

When authors objected to the idea of giving away books, who had the most objections? The guys with lots of books already sold and lots of money did.

Thanks are always appropriate, of course.

Thanks are always appropriate, of course.

Thanks are always appropriate, of course.

First chapters only. Compare that to Baen Books, who make many of their books available online, along with some interesting stuff in the prime palaver links to the left of the page.

There's a big difference between teasers and making the whole book freely available for download (but not redistribution ... a perfectly reasonable condition, I think).

First chapters only. Compare that to Baen Books, who make many of their books available online, along with some interesting stuff in the prime palaver links to the left of the page.

There's a big difference between teasers and making the whole book freely available for download (but not redistribution ... a perfectly reasonable condition, I think).

I think what LucasArts fears most is not that a fan will make a `better' Star Wars -- unlikely, too much resources required -- rather, what they're scared about is the lack of control over what they feel are their trademarks. Sad. This control-freakish attitude costs will cost them viewer in the long run, as Eric Flint pointed out a few stories ago.

I regret it. An interesting side-effect of people trying to maintain the old equality is forming and joining communities like Slashdot (discussion-oriented), Sourceforge (production-oriented) or Baen (product-oriented) in self-defense.

None of these things seem like a bad thing, though I do regret all the others who don't get the equal exposure they deserve. Google helps balance the scales, at least.

I've been wondering why some of the bigger names in the industry (those with a conscience, that is), like the folks in the Recording Artists Coalition, or people with huge clout like Stephen King, etc., don't get together and start their own media business.

It happens in the publishing business every so often, usually by editors. Baen Books was founded/is still run by science-fiction editor Jim Baen. Del Rey Books is now an imprint of a much bigger publishing house, but it was originally the baby of science-fiction author and editor Lester del Rey.

I don't know what the status of Del Rey Books is these days, but from the outside, Baen Books looks like a pretty cool outfit. They are pioneering unencrypted e-books at reasonable prices (Baen Free Library, Webscriptions) and they are one of the very, very few publishers who still read and buy manuscripts "over the transom" (not submitted through an agent). Certain big name sci-fi authors have moved to them from other publishers, so they must be doing something that makes the authors happy, too.

There are also a lot of minor record labels founded by musicians and minor people in the industry, but I have no idea if they are any fairer to their clients than the big labels.

I've been wondering why some of the bigger names in the industry (those with a conscience, that is), like the folks in the Recording Artists Coalition, or people with huge clout like Stephen King, etc., don't get together and start their own media business.

It happens in the publishing business every so often, usually by editors. Baen Books was founded/is still run by science-fiction editor Jim Baen. Del Rey Books is now an imprint of a much bigger publishing house, but it was originally the baby of science-fiction author and editor Lester del Rey.

I don't know what the status of Del Rey Books is these days, but from the outside, Baen Books looks like a pretty cool outfit. They are pioneering unencrypted e-books at reasonable prices (Baen Free Library, Webscriptions) and they are one of the very, very few publishers who still read and buy manuscripts "over the transom" (not submitted through an agent). Certain big name sci-fi authors have moved to them from other publishers, so they must be doing something that makes the authors happy, too.

There are also a lot of minor record labels founded by musicians and minor people in the industry, but I have no idea if they are any fairer to their clients than the big labels.

I would venture to suggest that the main reason dedicated e-book devices haven't taken off is that there isn't all that much you can do with them other than read an e-book...and in some cases, you can't even read any e-book you want, only the ones you buy from the manufacturer. Thanks, but no thanks.

Now PDAs, on the other hand, have a zillion uses...including e-reading. And those have shot right through the roof sale-wise, and there are apparently enough people who enjoy e-reading on them to keep at least a half-dozen major and who knows how many minor PDA-compatible or PDA-only e-book vending sites in clover.

For instance, I've been in correspondence with Lee Fyock of PDA-only e-book site Palm Digital Literature (nee Peanut Press), and while he can't reveal figures, he can tell me that business has been very good. Note that Peanut has been around for several years now, is adding new titles and authors constantly, and has been viewed as such a desirable property that it's been bought out not once but twice, the second time by Palm itself! That doesn't sound like strictly a publisher's dream to me.

I don't see Peanut, or Alexlit, or Fictionwise , or Baen Webscription, or any of the others as being in any danger of shutting down soon. So, clearly, there's more to this e-book thing than some people seem to think.

(Oh, and as for e-books being strictly a vehicle to impose content control, that's not necessarily entirely true either. See the Baen Free Library, Prime Palaver #6.)

I've leeched several books from their site since hearing about it, and have found 2 new authors that I'd never have tried out that I've added to my 'authors to check for whilst browsing bookstores' list.

Your point about dropping it in the bathtub is well taken. I haven't seen any that would survive extreme conditions very well. I wonder if the army has a 'militarized' version of Palm... unfortunately, the'd cost $5k each...

I have an RCA eBook. I'm starting to get to the point where I prefer to read via the ebook vs paper. The reasons?

* The ebook is readable in bed without any external light to disturb my significant other.

* I can read the hundreds (if not thousands) of books available for free on the internet from project Gutenberg and the like.

* I can load up 72MB worth of ebooks into the unit and as a result, not have to worry about not having something to read.

* It has a dictionary built in which is very helpful when you come across that word you go "what the heck is a ....."? You just click on lookup and then the word.

* Although I haven't used it this way, you can do notes and annotations into the ebooks.

On the battery issue, I chose the REB1100 because it has 20-40 hours of battery life. I think that 20-40 is conservative.

I saw someone else mention that color was needed. Although I can think of some cases where color would be nice (biology texbooks, art textbooks, etc.), for "paperback" reading, give me a good readable monochrome screen any day.

The main gripes I have are related to the slightly flaky usb support, the lack of a slightly dimmer backlight selection (20% is too bright for reading with the lights off at night), and the @#*$ publishers which think that they can sell an encrypted ebook usable only on this device (which might have a couple of year lifetime) at the same price that a paperback (which I can loan and share and keep) sells for.

On that last point, I will say that there are some publishers out there that have figured out that encryption is not good. In fact baen books have figured out that giving away books is a good way to improve sales, even of the books you are giving away!

I really think that quite a few of the naysayers out there about the ebooks haven't had one to play with.
No,
attempting
to read
a book on
a palmpilot
doesn't count.
You need
a big enough
screen
to be
able to
get more
than two
readable
words on
a line.

Having a decent number of words-per-line and page is a good thing. It also helps if you have enough resolution to set a serif font which is easier to read. The other thing is that the REB has done well is to be ergonomically designed so that the page advance button is right under your thumb when you hold it. This is the other major problem when trying to use a palmpilot as a comparison - the advance buttons are definately not under your thumb when you hold it in a comfortable reading position.

On the device mentioned in the article, it looks like this screen helps increase the viewable area. If this is the case, then I think it will definately be an improvement. I'm not sure about the color though - except I do recall from my early computer days that green was somehow determined to be easier on your eyes than white. Perhaps someone else can come up with a reference.

but why is Slashdot posting this blatant advertisement as a news story

Because it's been so long since stories about the Baen Free Library were posted (i.e. giving away electronic copies of books in print helps sell them, but publishing books yourself means that there is nobody to weed out the crap ones)

Katz, if you're really interested in reaching the widest possible audience, you might want to consider switching publishers.

The Baen Free Library has a wide selection of books you download off the net for free -- But before you ask, "well, how do I get paid?", you may want to look at the statistics they've posted for free downloads encouraging sales. I know I'd be alot more comfortable purchasing a book about a year w/ dogs if I could read part of it first.

Just my two drachma.

Can content like books be successfully "open-marketed" on the Net?
Yes.
Too bad Katz didn't.

Interesting site, thx. And certain Slashdot "regulars" may find This offering of particular interest!
; - )

Now to wait until Diplomatic Immunity comes out in May.

It's there. Everything you can read in the paperback copy is there. All the copyright and publishing info, lists of other books written by the author, laudatory quotes from the press, and the back cover synopsis are all there. If you doubt, here's the link to the synopsis for Mutineer's Moon.

Read the rest of his thoughts. He doesn't believe in unauthorized copying or sharing, and believes that the "information wants to be free" crowd are "ignorant juvenile delinquents (who don't, as a rule, even have the excuse of being juveniles)." Not that I'm totally in favor of abandoning copyright, but demonizing people with that belief should disqualify him from being a Slashdot idol.

Have a look around the site, and you'll find more material than you'll ever need attacking long copyrights.

Baen free library really is a great resource for anyone who needs to argue copyright. Take an 1841 speech to parliament, for example. Have a read. The articles there are every bit as interesting as the books.

Have a look around the site, and you'll find more material than you'll ever need attacking long copyrights.

Baen free library really is a great resource for anyone who needs to argue copyright. Take an 1841 speech to parliament, for example. Have a read. The articles there are every bit as interesting as the books.

Some people don't like the idea of being told that they can't copy music they created or others have made freely available.

"They created"? Eventually, it'll become impossible to write new songs. United States courts have defined copyright infringement on a musical work as the use of a "substantially similar" melody of at least four consecutive notes that are substantially similar to the melody of a copyrighted musical work. Given that there are only about 36,000 possible runs of four notes under a possible model of the "substantially similar" standard (transpose melodies to start on middle C, fold rests into previous note, fold notes outside an 11-note range inward an octave, quantize durations to short/medium/long, last note is always long), I'm afraid that the day will come when composers will no longer be able to write new music without accidentally stepping on a copyright.

Ok, one letter in favor of the Hollings bill, thousands and thousands opposed. That'll win 'em over...

Make that ten million dollars in favor of the Hollings bill and ten thousand opposed.

Any sensible author would agree with you. See the Baen Free Library site for an extended discussion of this topic. Because of this, I don't think we're likely to see MPAA/RIAA-style paranoia in the book field any time soon.

I guess these authors' point is that people who go to Amazon.com are prepared to buy new books, and that tempting these people to buy second hand hurts the authors' royalties. However, this point is to some extent invalidated because of the number or people who use Amazon.com as an informational resource.

But that's just not so. You're not being imaginative enough, and that's what I'm calling you on. The notion that there is nothing new under the sun is an old one. Personally, as an artist, I've always liked what Picasso said: "Great artists steal." There's a decent story by Spider Robinson with this concept as its theme, here.

I haven't been saying that you lack some necessary ability to think of these things properly -- just that you haven't been. I could say that you still aren't, but you aren't really addressing the substantive issue at this point. When you'd like to, feel free -- I'll be here.

Lastly, and I hate to harp on this, but what the hell, what you said wrt my .sig was: "However, your words, combined into this post, is. It is the idea that is copyrighted. While you do not want any sort of recognition for writting this (money or just a citation) does not mean it was not copyrighted."

That's not entirely accurate. While it is true that my post was (very, very briefly) copyrighted, it was the post, and not the general idea (roughly that there are limits to copyright and damn good reasons for them) that was copyrighted.

But what's key is the last point, which is wrong. I'd be more than happy to accept honors or money based on the content of my posts. Anyone that would care to make a donation is more than welcome to do so. I just don't demand it.

In fact, I could just as easily retain the copyright and yet refuse to accept any compensation, and (rather greedily) keep it all to myself. This is, for better or worse, a valid option. Copyright is, ultimately, about copying. The things you mention are factors, but are slightly tangental to the central issue.

I mention this because I feel there's nothing wrong with a bit of recapping, if only for posterity, and that it might help someone learn something, after all.

Now then, perhaps you'd like to return to your actual argument?

Here is a link to Melancholy Elephants.

Sure there are a small set of notes, and only so many ways you can arange any two notes in any tempo. After two notes, it is all in the arrangement, and composition.

The Yes! We have no bananas! case set the precedent that four notes is enough to get a songwriter sued in the United States. Given that there are only about 30,000 ways to combine four notes in the Western music theory (reply if you want a more detailed explanation of the math), it appears that the only reason songwriters haven't exhausted the melody space is that the big "all your right are belong to us" publishers have entered into cross-licensing agreements with one another. This is part of why you should write your legislators and request a repeal of the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act.

For a long time? Well, the original intent of copyright in the US and the UK is clearly to avoid a simple equating of rights and property, as others have pointed out. Just for entertainment, here's an early Victorian (Macaulay) on the subject (the whole thing is here, courtesy of Eric Flint)

Speech to Parliament, 1841

...I will take an example. Dr Johnson died fifty-six years ago. If the law were what my honourable and learned friend wishes to make it [term extended], somebody would now have the monopoly of Dr Johnson's works. Who that somebody would be it is impossible to say; but we may venture to guess. I guess, then, that it would have been some bookseller, who was the assign of another bookseller, who was the grandson of a third bookseller, who had bought the copyright from Black Frank, the doctor's servant and residuary legatee, in 1785 or 1786. Now, would the knowledge that this copyright would exist in 1841 have been a source of gratification to Johnson? Would it have stimulated his exertions? Would it have once drawn him out of his bed before noon? Would it have once cheered him under a fit of the spleen? Would it have induced him to give us one more allegory, one more life of a poet, one more imitation of Juvenal? I firmly believe not. I firmly believe that a hundred years ago, when he was writing our debates for the Gentleman's Magazine, he would very much rather have had twopence to buy a plate of shin of beef at a cook's shop underground. Considered as a reward to him, the difference between a twenty years' and sixty years' term of posthumous copyright would have been nothing or next to nothing. But is the difference nothing to us?...

Art and literature have no shelf life--they can be enjoyed thousands of years after the author has passed away. It is reasonable for the author to retain copyright to their work

So what happens when somebody owns a copyright on every possible melody? It makes it pretty damn hard for songwriters to create something new. See also bananas and elephants.

until at least the day they die.

Corporate authors do not die.

For 'code' the copyright lifecycle should be a lot shorter, as is the shelflife.

The current U.S. copyright law framework provides no way to distinguish between "code" and any other literary work. Remember, code is speech, and speech is code.

He argues against the "Enforcement! Regulation! New regulations! Tighter regulations! All out for the campaign against piracy! No quarter! Build more prisons! Harsher sentences!" (from linked page)

among his arguements (quoting from page) " The same thing happens when someone checks a book out of a public library ? a "transaction" which, again, dwarfs by several orders of magnitude all forms of online piracy. The author only collects royalties once, when the library purchases a copy. Thereafter. . ."

" The first is a simple truth which Jim Baen is fond of pointing out: most people would rather be honest than dishonest. "
" The only time that mass scale petty thievery becomes a problem is when the perception spreads, among broad layers of the population, that a given product is priced artificially high due to monopolistic practices and/or draconian legislation designed to protect those practices. But so long as the "gap" between the price of a legal product and a stolen one remains both small and, in the eyes of most people, a legitimate cost rather than gouging, 99% of them will prefer the legal product."

I think this cuts to the heart of the issue. I don't think many people will disagree that a paperback or hardback is really unreasonable, because it does cost some money to produce (toner/ink, paper, etc) and money gets back to the author/creator.

I and family usually spend a lot of our disposable income on books, and have an attachment to Baen's authors (particualarly David Weber, Steve White, and Eric Flint) and own almost all of Weber's, White's, Flint's books they have published. (To tell the truth, because we have lost books or given it as gifts, we have bought about 6 copies of "In Death Ground") I enjoy having some of them online where I can read them anywhere that has internet access.

You want profit? Then create it! Create it, pay for it or slag off!

That may be true for movies, but eventually, it'll become impossible to create new music. U.S. courts have defined copyright infringement on a musical work as the use of at least four consecutive notes that are substantially similar to the melody of a copyrighted work. Given that there are only 27,000 possible runs of four notes under the "substantially similar" standard (transpose melodies to start on middle C, fold rests into previous note, fold notes outside an 11-note range inward an octave, quantize durations to short/medium/long), I'm afraid that the day will come when composers will no longer be able to write new music that doesn't infringe a copyright.

What is the justification for distinguishing between corporate copyrights and people's copyrights?

I agree with you that copyright should last for a set amount of time, see here for a detailed analysis of that argument. It boils down to, why should Titus Andronicus get more protection in terms of years than The Tempest? A more modern example would be: why should my teen-angst poetry get longer copyright protection than the magnum opus I complete on my death bed in seventy years (hopefully)?

I go back and forth between what I think copyright should be, I imagine it must be much harder for those who actually make the decisions (well, it would be if they gave it any thought.) I find myself currently swayed by the argument that copyright should expire within the author's lifetime in order to give the author incentive to create more works. But I've also believed that an author should be able to prosper off of his work for the course of his life. Thoughout it all, however, I've firmly believed that copyright should never be a gravy train for the author's heirs (for example, I'd have Tolkien's work enter the public domain sometime between 1998-2013.) Children should stop living off of their parents, preferably sometime before the parents die, but you know how famous people are...

-sk

Hmmm I think you need to look at Baen for a publisher that "gets it".

Or better yet, try this or if you want free try this . No reason to pirate books when there are quality works available for free or low cost.

The Publisher?Baen Books

Check them out.

The Crazy Finn

She breathed a short laugh. "For all that I try to be all modern and galactic, that feels so strange. All sorts of men don't make it home for the births of their children. But My mother was out of town on the day I was born, so she missed it, just seems . . . seems like a more profound complaint, somehow."

-- Diplomatic Immunity , Lois McMaster Bujold, chapter 1,