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I think of postal service employees, who I don't usually think of in cubicles. I think of the FBI, the US Geological Survey, the Coast Guard, the Navy, NASA.

Many of those might be depressed cubicle workers, but that's the case of most American workers. And they're probably more depressed now as the Republicans follow their own massive expansion of government labor under Bush/Cheney (but perfectly typical of all "Conservative" Republican presidents) with destroying jobs (and the product market demand those jobs create) during Obama's administration.

But despite our Republican-led attacks on government workers (and workers generally), the American people do still expect the best of them. Whether we give them an underpaid cubicle, or a space capsule, or a mail truck, to work in.

by yours truly in 'DailyKos

That right there is just one of the many reasons why the concept of settling other planets is so *#$#@$* difficult.

To live on another planet -- to merely stay alive -- requires a whole raft of modern technology. And each modern technological component has a whole chain of component inputs for parts and manufacturing consumables, and each of those has a whole chain, and each of those, and so on down the line. And as much as we might like to pretend that we can just narrow things down to just a few parts or materials, you really can't. Try substituting nylon for teflon in a container that holds hydrofluoric acid or teflon for nylon in a high-abrasion part and see how well things go for you, for example.

Plastics are a key critical part of modern technology, and there's thousands of them. Perhaps you could do with a couple dozen -- *maybe*, if you engineered each and every component carefully (a massive undertaking when you're saying, basically, "reinvent our modern industrial base"). So we need to have whole oil refineries and chemical plants operating on... wait, what? Oil, Mars?

Right. So before you can even get to those oil refineries and chemical plants -- launched at absurdly expensive prices -- you have to have a way to make oil in the first place, on a planet that has none. This means some combination of the Fischer-Tropsch/Sabatier processes. Which means taking in and compressing the trace atmosphere, isolating the CO2 from the other gasses, reacting it with a steady stream of hydrogen from a water electrolyzer (fed by an ice mine) over a catalyst bed at high temperatures, and then fed into the refinery. And of course, every part will steadily corrode, moving parts will break, etc, and you need supply chains to produce *each and every part*. Every seal, every coil, every valve, every surface coating, every lubricant, every hydraulic fluid, every sensor, everything. In your whole refinery and chemical plant. And everything that goes into making those parts/materials -- not just their raw materials, but their production-process consumables? You have to be able to make them, too. And so on down the line.

It's really a horribly daunting challenge, a colony that can completely support itself. Mostly support itself, with freighters of parts and replacement equipment /low level consumables showing up every few months? That's not that bad. *Completely* independent? That's centuries in the future at best.

A while back I did a whole series going into this sort of stuff in more detail over here:

Beyond The Space Elevator: A Glimpse Of Alternative Methods For Space Launch
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: Where Will We Begin?
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: Who Will Bring It About And Why?
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: The Industry Dilemma

That right there is just one of the many reasons why the concept of settling other planets is so *#$#@$* difficult.

To live on another planet -- to merely stay alive -- requires a whole raft of modern technology. And each modern technological component has a whole chain of component inputs for parts and manufacturing consumables, and each of those has a whole chain, and each of those, and so on down the line. And as much as we might like to pretend that we can just narrow things down to just a few parts or materials, you really can't. Try substituting nylon for teflon in a container that holds hydrofluoric acid or teflon for nylon in a high-abrasion part and see how well things go for you, for example.

Plastics are a key critical part of modern technology, and there's thousands of them. Perhaps you could do with a couple dozen -- *maybe*, if you engineered each and every component carefully (a massive undertaking when you're saying, basically, "reinvent our modern industrial base"). So we need to have whole oil refineries and chemical plants operating on... wait, what? Oil, Mars?

Right. So before you can even get to those oil refineries and chemical plants -- launched at absurdly expensive prices -- you have to have a way to make oil in the first place, on a planet that has none. This means some combination of the Fischer-Tropsch/Sabatier processes. Which means taking in and compressing the trace atmosphere, isolating the CO2 from the other gasses, reacting it with a steady stream of hydrogen from a water electrolyzer (fed by an ice mine) over a catalyst bed at high temperatures, and then fed into the refinery. And of course, every part will steadily corrode, moving parts will break, etc, and you need supply chains to produce *each and every part*. Every seal, every coil, every valve, every surface coating, every lubricant, every hydraulic fluid, every sensor, everything. In your whole refinery and chemical plant. And everything that goes into making those parts/materials -- not just their raw materials, but their production-process consumables? You have to be able to make them, too. And so on down the line.

It's really a horribly daunting challenge, a colony that can completely support itself. Mostly support itself, with freighters of parts and replacement equipment /low level consumables showing up every few months? That's not that bad. *Completely* independent? That's centuries in the future at best.

A while back I did a whole series going into this sort of stuff in more detail over here:

Beyond The Space Elevator: A Glimpse Of Alternative Methods For Space Launch
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: Where Will We Begin?
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: Who Will Bring It About And Why?
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: The Industry Dilemma

That right there is just one of the many reasons why the concept of settling other planets is so *#$#@$* difficult.

To live on another planet -- to merely stay alive -- requires a whole raft of modern technology. And each modern technological component has a whole chain of component inputs for parts and manufacturing consumables, and each of those has a whole chain, and each of those, and so on down the line. And as much as we might like to pretend that we can just narrow things down to just a few parts or materials, you really can't. Try substituting nylon for teflon in a container that holds hydrofluoric acid or teflon for nylon in a high-abrasion part and see how well things go for you, for example.

Plastics are a key critical part of modern technology, and there's thousands of them. Perhaps you could do with a couple dozen -- *maybe*, if you engineered each and every component carefully (a massive undertaking when you're saying, basically, "reinvent our modern industrial base"). So we need to have whole oil refineries and chemical plants operating on... wait, what? Oil, Mars?

Right. So before you can even get to those oil refineries and chemical plants -- launched at absurdly expensive prices -- you have to have a way to make oil in the first place, on a planet that has none. This means some combination of the Fischer-Tropsch/Sabatier processes. Which means taking in and compressing the trace atmosphere, isolating the CO2 from the other gasses, reacting it with a steady stream of hydrogen from a water electrolyzer (fed by an ice mine) over a catalyst bed at high temperatures, and then fed into the refinery. And of course, every part will steadily corrode, moving parts will break, etc, and you need supply chains to produce *each and every part*. Every seal, every coil, every valve, every surface coating, every lubricant, every hydraulic fluid, every sensor, everything. In your whole refinery and chemical plant. And everything that goes into making those parts/materials -- not just their raw materials, but their production-process consumables? You have to be able to make them, too. And so on down the line.

It's really a horribly daunting challenge, a colony that can completely support itself. Mostly support itself, with freighters of parts and replacement equipment /low level consumables showing up every few months? That's not that bad. *Completely* independent? That's centuries in the future at best.

A while back I did a whole series going into this sort of stuff in more detail over here:

Beyond The Space Elevator: A Glimpse Of Alternative Methods For Space Launch
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: Where Will We Begin?
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: Who Will Bring It About And Why?
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: The Industry Dilemma

That right there is just one of the many reasons why the concept of settling other planets is so *#$#@$* difficult.

To live on another planet -- to merely stay alive -- requires a whole raft of modern technology. And each modern technological component has a whole chain of component inputs for parts and manufacturing consumables, and each of those has a whole chain, and each of those, and so on down the line. And as much as we might like to pretend that we can just narrow things down to just a few parts or materials, you really can't. Try substituting nylon for teflon in a container that holds hydrofluoric acid or teflon for nylon in a high-abrasion part and see how well things go for you, for example.

Plastics are a key critical part of modern technology, and there's thousands of them. Perhaps you could do with a couple dozen -- *maybe*, if you engineered each and every component carefully (a massive undertaking when you're saying, basically, "reinvent our modern industrial base"). So we need to have whole oil refineries and chemical plants operating on... wait, what? Oil, Mars?

Right. So before you can even get to those oil refineries and chemical plants -- launched at absurdly expensive prices -- you have to have a way to make oil in the first place, on a planet that has none. This means some combination of the Fischer-Tropsch/Sabatier processes. Which means taking in and compressing the trace atmosphere, isolating the CO2 from the other gasses, reacting it with a steady stream of hydrogen from a water electrolyzer (fed by an ice mine) over a catalyst bed at high temperatures, and then fed into the refinery. And of course, every part will steadily corrode, moving parts will break, etc, and you need supply chains to produce *each and every part*. Every seal, every coil, every valve, every surface coating, every lubricant, every hydraulic fluid, every sensor, everything. In your whole refinery and chemical plant. And everything that goes into making those parts/materials -- not just their raw materials, but their production-process consumables? You have to be able to make them, too. And so on down the line.

It's really a horribly daunting challenge, a colony that can completely support itself. Mostly support itself, with freighters of parts and replacement equipment /low level consumables showing up every few months? That's not that bad. *Completely* independent? That's centuries in the future at best.

A while back I did a whole series going into this sort of stuff in more detail over here:

Beyond The Space Elevator: A Glimpse Of Alternative Methods For Space Launch
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: Where Will We Begin?
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: Who Will Bring It About And Why?
The Colonization Of Other Worlds: The Industry Dilemma

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/12/08/926903/-American-MadeWhere-to-find-it-(UPDATED-Dec-11,-2010)?detail=hide&via=blog_674989

Yeah, unions sure are evil! Thanks, Slashdot! Let's ignore instances of striking workers helping scabs to make sure they don't get hurt. (Link: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/19/1008575/-As-Verizon-uses-inexperienced-replacement-workers,-delays-mount). Let's also ignore that they're trying to cut their wages and benefits even as Verizon has experienced record profits.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED:-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

PERTINENT QUOTES/EXCERPTS:

"According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HBGary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other. Then, to top it off, the team can actually automate some functions so one persona can appear to be an entire Brooks Brothers riot online... And all of this is for the purposes of infiltration, data mining, and (here's the one that really worries me) ganging up on bloggers, commenters and otherwise "real" people to smear enemies and distort the truth... "

and

"They are talking about creating the illusion of consensus. And consensus is a powerful persuader... And another thing, this is just one little company of assholes. I can't believe there aren't others doing this already. From oil companies, political campaigns, PR firms, you name it. Public opinion means big bucks. And let's face it, what these guys are talking about is easy."

and

"To the extent that the propaganda technique known as "Bandwagon" is an effective form of persuasion, which it definitely is, the ability for a few people to infiltrate a blog or social media site and appear to be many people, all taking one position in a debate, all agreeing, for example, that so and so is not credible, or a crook, is an incredibly powerful weapon."

---

MAN - WHAT A PACK OF LITTLE PLASTIC WORMS & JERKS! I, for one, would NEVER trust them again, as they operate largely on DECEITS online - I personally cannot STAND that type online (they think they're "*smart*", & that they're fooling others, but they're only fooling themselves & were EXPOSED IN IT too!)

* I'd suggest reading the whole article in the link I put up above & not only because of the quotes I pulled from it to get your attention here, but also because it largely BACKS THE FACT THAT EVEN PSEUDONYMS DON'T MATTER, because they're easy to create via alternate email accounts, TOR endpoint proxies usage, OR anonymous proxy server usage on the part of those seeking to be "many from 1"!

(Yes, I'd read that folks - because it MAY ADVERSELY AFFECT YOU ONE DAY ALSO & be "levelled against you" (I hope not)... & I KNOW I've had it happen to me, here, & others spots online (I busted clone52431/clone53421 & others doing it in fact, the "trolltalk.com" pack of admitted trolls around here in fact)).

I don't KNOW if A. Barr is the one behind that specifically, but I am fairly SURE he worked for they iirc... & they're pretty damned LOW imo @ least (anyone who uses that b.s. online? Is what I call a "NOT MAN"... & a weasel!)

APK

P.S.=> That's for anyone that tries to say I am "full of it", etc./et al - though I know that most of you KNOW this type of crap really does go on online, & how/when/where/why IF NOT BY WHOM as well...

... apk

This really bothered me, don't know about the rest of you:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED:-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

PERTINENT QUOTES/EXCERPTS:

"According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HBGary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other. Then, to top it off, the team can actually automate some functions so one persona can appear to be an entire Brooks Brothers riot online... And all of this is for the purposes of infiltration, data mining, and (here's the one that really worries me) ganging up on bloggers, commenters and otherwise "real" people to smear enemies and distort the truth... "

and

"They are talking about creating the illusion of consensus. And consensus is a powerful persuader... And another thing, this is just one little company of assholes. I can't believe there aren't others doing this already. From oil companies, political campaigns, PR firms, you name it. Public opinion means big bucks. And let's face it, what these guys are talking about is easy."

and

"To the extent that the propaganda technique known as "Bandwagon" is an effective form of persuasion, which it definitely is, the ability for a few people to infiltrate a blog or social media site and appear to be many people, all taking one position in a debate, all agreeing, for example, that so and so is not credible, or a crook, is an incredibly powerful weapon."

---

* I'd suggest reading the whole article in the link I put up above & not only because of the quotes I pulled from it to get your attention here, but also because it largely BACKS THE FACT THAT EVEN PSEUDONYMS DON'T MATTER, because they're easy to create via alternate email accounts, TOR endpoint proxies usage, OR anonymous proxy server usage on the part of those seeking to be "many from 1"!

(Yes, I'd read that folks - because it MAY ADVERSELY AFFECT YOU ONE DAY ALSO & be "levelled against you" (I hope not)... & I KNOW I've had it happen to me, here, & others spots online (I busted clone52431/clone53421 & others doing it in fact, the "trolltalk.com" pack of admitted trolls around here in fact & years ago from arstechnica people @ Windows IT Pro -> http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/internals-and-architecture/the-memory-optimization-hoax#feedbackAnchor (Jeremy Reimer mainly))).

APK

P.S.=> That's for anyone that tries to say I am "full of it", etc./et al - though I know that most of you KNOW this type of crap really does go on online, & how/when/where/why IF NOT BY WHOM as well as why...

... apk

Well, currently people are fleeing from stocks into bonds: stocks fall while the government can sell bonds with record low interest. In other words, somehow S&P's rating doesn't prevent the markets from seeing low growth estimates as the real problem, so they don't buy S&P's rating. The US government can borrow money as much as it wants, but instead of putting their money to beneficial uses with longterm positive effects (such as infrastructure spending), they rather spend it on unemplyoment insurance and the like. How could their priorities be any worse than that? And where are the tax increases?

As for the role of Obama, I'll gladly refer to Tom Tomorrow

This really bothered me, don't know about the rest of you:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED:-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

PERTINENT QUOTES/EXCERPTS:

"According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HBGary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other. Then, to top it off, the team can actually automate some functions so one persona can appear to be an entire Brooks Brothers riot online... And all of this is for the purposes of infiltration, data mining, and (here's the one that really worries me) ganging up on bloggers, commenters and otherwise "real" people to smear enemies and distort the truth... "

and

"They are talking about creating the illusion of consensus. And consensus is a powerful persuader... And another thing, this is just one little company of assholes. I can't believe there aren't others doing this already. From oil companies, political campaigns, PR firms, you name it. Public opinion means big bucks. And let's face it, what these guys are talking about is easy."

and

"To the extent that the propaganda technique known as "Bandwagon" is an effective form of persuasion, which it definitely is, the ability for a few people to infiltrate a blog or social media site and appear to be many people, all taking one position in a debate, all agreeing, for example, that so and so is not credible, or a crook, is an incredibly powerful weapon."

---

* I'd suggest reading the whole article in the link I put up above & not only because of the quotes I pulled from it to get your attention here, but also because it largely BACKS THE FACT THAT EVEN PSEUDONYMS DON'T MATTER, because they're easy to create via alternate email accounts, TOR endpoint proxies usage, OR anonymous proxy server usage on the part of those seeking to be "many from 1"!

(Yes, I'd read that folks - because it MAY ADVERSELY AFFECT YOU ONE DAY ALSO & be "levelled against you" (I hope not)... & I KNOW I've had it happen to me, here, & others spots online (I busted clone52431/clone53421 & others doing it in fact, the "trolltalk.com" pack of admitted trolls around here in fact & years ago from arstechnica people @ Windows IT Pro -> http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/internals-and-architecture/the-memory-optimization-hoax#feedbackAnchor (Jeremy Reimer mainly))).

APK

P.S.=> That's for anyone that tries to say I am "full of it", etc./et al - though I know that most of you KNOW this type of crap really does go on online, & how/when/where/why IF NOT BY WHOM as well as why...

... apk

Riiiiiight. So starting not ONE but TWO wars while, for the first time EVER in our nation's history, instead of raising taxes on the wealthy like in every. other. war. having a president go "Hey ya know what, teh rich are only up to 85% of teh wealth! That ain't right, lets give em more MONIES nom nom nom" didn't do anything because.....what? The magic Texas fairies pulled magic money out their teeny tiny asses?

Sadly what is wrong with this country can be described in a single sentence..."Give teh rich more MONIES! Nom nom nom". After all lets take a look at what that policy has gotten us so far. We had Trickle Upon (80-88), Voodoo economics (88-92), Hey lets set up trade deals with countries with NO environmental nor worker laws (92-00), the above "Lets start two wars while LOWERING taxes on teh rich LOL!" (00-08) and finally "Bailout teh rich baby, bailout teh rich!" (08-Present).

The truly sad part, and why the poster above you with their description of republicans as cartoon villains is entirely apropos, is that if they cared about the country instead of their kickbacks and enriching themselves they would see what both the data and common sense tells us, namely that higher taxes on the wealthy increases economic growth and creates more jobs and anyone with the slightest bit of common sense would understand that if they get taxed if they hoard it the rich will instead INVEST it in new businesses, duh. The rich hoard, the poor spend. Is this REALLY so hard to understand?

Apparently it is, because to those on the right there is only ONE answer, the one that they cling to like a greedy child clinging to the candy jar..."Give teh rich more MONIES! Nom nom nom". No jobs, high unemployment? Why "Give teh rich more MONIES! Nom nom nom".A single illness wipes out your family, companies like GE get tax breaks and bailouts and then send the factory to India? "Give teh rich more MONIES! Nom nom nom". illegal immigration, rampant crime, children going to bed hungry in America? "Give teh rich more MONIES! Nom nom nom"..

A truly wise man once said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" and if things continue along this path, with ever swelling masses of the poor while the top 1% hold more than 90% of the country's wealth at last count? Well I predict they'll be some watering in our future. There have been plenty of examples in history to what happens when wealth becomes to concentrated, too many poor. The French Revolution and Pol Pot come to mind, neither outcome was very pretty for the wealthy.

Read the decision. The ruling is that this is not a violation of this individual's free speech because the information being presented is for mere business, rather than political, purposes.

Now contrast that with "Citizens United" and other recent court rulings that have held corporate commercial speech is absolutely protected by the First Amendment.

Now take a look at the recent unprecendented wave of corporate donations and junkets being flooded into the judiciary, including the Supreme Court. For the first time in history, we have Supreme Court justices openly accepting small fortunes from various interests that appeared before them.

We've got an awful lot of corruption to clean up in the judiciary before we can expect to get fair and logical decisions out of them again.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED:-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

PERTINENT QUOTES/EXCERPTS:

"According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HBGary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other. Then, to top it off, the team can actually automate some functions so one persona can appear to be an entire Brooks Brothers riot online... And all of this is for the purposes of infiltration, data mining, and (here's the one that really worries me) ganging up on bloggers, commenters and otherwise "real" people to smear enemies and distort the truth... "

and

"They are talking about creating the illusion of consensus. And consensus is a powerful persuader... And another thing, this is just one little company of assholes. I can't believe there aren't others doing this already. From oil companies, political campaigns, PR firms, you name it. Public opinion means big bucks. And let's face it, what these guys are talking about is easy."

and

"To the extent that the propaganda technique known as "Bandwagon" is an effective form of persuasion, which it definitely is, the ability for a few people to infiltrate a blog or social media site and appear to be many people, all taking one position in a debate, all agreeing, for example, that so and so is not credible, or a crook, is an incredibly powerful weapon."

---

* I'd suggest reading the whole article in the link I put up above & not only because of the quotes I pulled from it to get your attention here, but also because it largely BACKS THE FACT THAT EVEN PSEUDONYMS DON'T MATTER, because they're easy to create via alternate email accounts, TOR endpoint proxies usage, OR anonymous proxy server usage on the part of those seeking to be "many from 1"!

(Yes, I'd read that folks - because it MAY ADVERSELY AFFECT YOU ONE DAY ALSO & be "levelled against you" (I hope not)... & I KNOW I've had it happen to me, here, & others spots online (I busted clone52431/clone53421 & others doing it in fact, the "trolltalk.com" pack of admitted trolls around here in fact)).

APK

P.S.=> That's for anyone that tries to say I am "full of it", etc./et al - though I know that most of you KNOW this type of crap really does go on online, & how/when/where/why IF NOT BY WHOM as well...

... apk

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED:-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

PERTINENT QUOTES/EXCERPTS:

"According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HBGary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other. Then, to top it off, the team can actually automate some functions so one persona can appear to be an entire Brooks Brothers riot online... And all of this is for the purposes of infiltration, data mining, and (here's the one that really worries me) ganging up on bloggers, commenters and otherwise "real" people to smear enemies and distort the truth... "

and

"They are talking about creating the illusion of consensus. And consensus is a powerful persuader... And another thing, this is just one little company of assholes. I can't believe there aren't others doing this already. From oil companies, political campaigns, PR firms, you name it. Public opinion means big bucks. And let's face it, what these guys are talking about is easy."

and

"To the extent that the propaganda technique known as "Bandwagon" is an effective form of persuasion, which it definitely is, the ability for a few people to infiltrate a blog or social media site and appear to be many people, all taking one position in a debate, all agreeing, for example, that so and so is not credible, or a crook, is an incredibly powerful weapon."

---

* I'd suggest reading the whole article in the link I put up above & not only because it largely BACKS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN MY ORIGINAL POST - but, because moreso, that it MAY ADVERSELY AFFECT YOU ONE DAY ALSO & be "levelled against you" (I hope not)...

Yes... it's disgusting there are PAID TROLLS that do this, but it does go on, like mad!

APK

P.S.=> That's for anyone that tries to say I am "full of it", etc./et al - though I know that most of you KNOW this type of crap really does go on online, & how/when/where/why IF NOT BY WHOM as well...

... apk

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED:-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

PERTINENT QUOTES/EXCERPTS:

"According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HBGary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other. Then, to top it off, the team can actually automate some functions so one persona can appear to be an entire Brooks Brothers riot online... And all of this is for the purposes of infiltration, data mining, and (here's the one that really worries me) ganging up on bloggers, commenters and otherwise "real" people to smear enemies and distort the truth... "

and

"They are talking about creating the illusion of consensus. And consensus is a powerful persuader... And another thing, this is just one little company of assholes. I can't believe there aren't others doing this already. From oil companies, political campaigns, PR firms, you name it. Public opinion means big bucks. And let's face it, what these guys are talking about is easy."

and

"To the extent that the propaganda technique known as "Bandwagon" is an effective form of persuasion, which it definitely is, the ability for a few people to infiltrate a blog or social media site and appear to be many people, all taking one position in a debate, all agreeing, for example, that so and so is not credible, or a crook, is an incredibly powerful weapon."

---

* I'd suggest reading the whole article in the link I put up above & not only because it largely BACKS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID IN MY ORIGINAL POST - but, because moreso, that it MAY ADVERSELY AFFECT YOU ONE DAY ALSO & be "levelled against you" (I hope not)...

Yes... it's disgusting there are PAID TROLLS that do this, but it does go on, like mad!

APK

P.S.=> That's for anyone that tries to say I am "full of it", etc./et al - though I know that most of you KNOW this type of crap really does go on online, & how/when/where/why IF NOT BY WHOM as well...

... apk

Trade secrets like the socke-puppet armies? Or perhaps targeting Americans for the banks and CIA? Or perhaps false flag operations, government sanctioned hacking for the alphabet soup agencies, etc. Blackmailing journalist not touting the party line.

Trade Secrets. Right. If the trade is protecting the good 'ole boy network. What the hell are security trade-secrets? Security through obscurity? I doubt this guy was about to provide a list of documents with the nuclear codes. This is about how the tools are being wrongfully used.

Don't forget that if you put 6 of them in a room you wouldn't even be able to get them to agree on what's for lunch!

That is one of the really sad things about the USA, the fact we only have one party now. In Europe they have lots of different parties with different beliefs and have to have a coalition, here we have the "Give teh rich more MONIES! nom nom nom" party and then we have the Ds for dumbasses, that can't agree on shit and spend all their time bickering with each other until people get so fed up with their bullshit they vote for the "more MONIES! nom nom nom" party just to get rid of the dumbasses whining.

Personally I don't think it is really gonna matter in the end what the dumbasses or the nom noms do, we will end up with our own Arab spring. You have lost over 42,000 factories in a single decade and students buried alive in student loans (the next bubble to burst) that go straight from the graduation ceremony to the unemployment line yet we have companies following the how not to hire an American video like its a how to book and bring H1-Bs over as fast as they can shove them on a plane, and the business districts in the south look like Escape from New York thanks to all the abandoned buildings.

People will only put up with shit for so long before the powderkeg blows, and I would argue we are seeing that fuse get smaller every day. it really wouldn't take much to get the people to follow our own crazy Austrian, as frankly anything is better than what we have now. Hell if they keep stretching the military and sending them into one shithole after another I wouldn't even be surprised if some general decided a junta was in order, and most Americans? like I said better than what we've got now.

Thank you, you responded to the "libertarian" (Libertarian I've found is a code word for "extra fucking greedy rich white guy") in much better manner than I ever could have. What I do love is for all their screams about "gubment taking my monies!" they never seem to answer why if their "give the rich more monies!" theory held true then why when taxes and corporate handouts have never been better for the top 5% are we in such a mess? Why if trickle down and "give the monies to teh rich they'll create teh jobz!" is a sound theory are we not better off than we were 20 years ago?

The answer is simple, when you lower taxes you make Americans MORE expensive to hire since the payroll tax breaks are based on the upper tax. Bigger upper tax? get more money back when you hire labor. Lower tax? The labor becomes MORE expensive. although I'm sure that since this info is on the Daily Koz he won't read it because it is "socialist" which is like more evil than Hitler in their book. No Godwin intended.

But you are absolutely right that when you lose 21,000 factories in less than a decade while CEOs from the 60s made 80 times what the worker did and now make on average over 500 times? What you have is the start of our own Arab spring. The sad part is they are hoping for another depression IMHO, as the rich made out like bandits while the poor starved in the last one. But they are wrong, the poor won't go silently into that good night again. they will arm, they will read the anarchist cookbook, they will mobilize and they WILL fight. It ain't gonna be pretty but when BOTH sides of the aisle are handing out as much to the rich as they can with a "let them eat cake" attitude? Frankly I don't see any other outcome.

And why do they want the economy to crash and burn?

Because they're shorting it and stand to make a bundle.

Yet another nuke absolutist. We need power, therefore we need nuke power? No we don't.

How can you talk about "one of the lowest risk, cleanest" power sources in this story? Didn't you notice that today floodwater entered the plant building after its protective berm collapsed yesterday - the story we're discussing here? Did you know that

NRC inspectors concluded that at flooding levels above 1,008 feet, the plant "would experience a loss of offsite power and loss of intake structure" and water pumps providing essential cooling water to the plant.

In that case, "the plant would be incapable of reaching cold shutdown" with normal operations -- a fundamental safety requirement imposed by the NRC.

Did you know that water was now at 1007 feet today? That upstream continues to flood, and the lake now completely surrounding the plant will last until at least August, during which any extra rains would push the flood back to and past 1008 feet? Past the 1010 feet that are the top of the walls?

How about what happens when this plant goes Fukushima, or even a fraction of it? When its extremely toxic stockpile washed down the swollen Missouri, poisoning all the downstream land now flooded but later necessary to return to being America's most valuable farmland?

You say "all things considered" so easily, but you've considered nothing. You're not qualified to say what's acceptable here. Stop posting and get out of the way of people working now to limit these nuke catastrophes to just the few we've had. And insulate your house some more, so at least you're doing something worthwhile to get us out of this mess.

These people who are "targeted" are only targeted if they broke the law. Is the immigration law broke and in need of fixing? Hell yes. Does that make it "right" to just hop the border and do as you please? No. If you think it does, try to illegally immigrate to Mexico and see how that goes.

But the problem is, they're targeting all non-whites (admittedly, primarily Latinos), using SB 1070 as a shield, under the name of fixing the "illegals" problem -- which is a fancy, modern, more socially acceptable version of a racial slur against Latinos. Believe the previous one was "wetback?" Maybe "beaner?" I'm not hip with bigot lingo, unfortunately.

When you're stopped at a traffic stop because you happen to have brown skin, that's targeting. It's racial profiling, and it's wrong. SB 1070 just attempts to give them some form of legal cover for what is disgusting behavior.

And that's the long and the short of it. For all the outcry about "illegals taking our jobs" (that would be the jobs they're finding in Georgia that they can't fill without illegals), for all the rage and fury that people who didn't have the good sense to be born the white decedents of previous immigrants, this law, and the culture behind it, is wrong. Absolutely wrong.

Ethically, morally, intellectually. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Worse still, it's a smokescreen, a scapegoat to try and pawn problems off on a socially soft target. A shell game for morally inadequate politicians, drunk on power and desperate to stay relevant.

If these people were really interested in actually fixing the problem, they'd join with the Democratic Party and work on the real immigration reform they've been trying to get hammered out. They're not. It's too useful as a wedge issue to get the ignorant masses out and voting, and pawn serious problems off on an easy scapegoat.

I suppose we should just be glad they're not talking about labor camps for illegals and the unemployed yet.

A state mirroring federal law, is anti-immigrant. I mean seriously here. You have the feds who refuse to enforce the law, you have a state creating a law that mirrors it, and they're anti-immigrant? Hardly. Anti-illegal immigrant indeed and I have no problems with that.

Close! Actually, The Obama Administration has reduced the number of illegals for the first time in 20 years. Contrast to the Bush Regime, which was openly attacked by members of the rabid right for not being hatemongery enough.

Oh, and the Dems re-introduced comprehensive immigration reform, but don't worry, the Republicans will kill it again, under the "No, we'll need that wedge issue in 2016" theory of government.

Source of death threats is likely sock puppet army software by HBGary or similar, commissioned by USA federal government, discovered by anonymous hack.
Probably the source of lots of climate denial posts all over the web.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED:-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All?detail=hide
Link to government solicitation document not working, lucky the document is copied inline for our records.

That's very nice, but it doesn't explain why the Arctic and Antarctic ice is melting. We have temperature observations in the ocean and from satellites also. They all show warming. It's nice to show some pictures of temperature stations in parking lots and pretend that they invalidate all temperature measurements because you find the warming to be inconvenient.

Or better yet Comrade, prosecute them in the Hague for crimes against humanity for daring to be skeptical about it. Maybe we could outsource it to the PRC, they seem to be pretty good at that kind of thing; hey, the prison thing would be easy for them to manage. $0.40 for the .38 cal bullet...

Hey, we can even call them Deniers, to build an association between Holocaust Deniers and Climate Change Deniers. That'll make it easier to round them up and send the out for re-education or for the tough cases "Carbon Sequestration;" (now, where did we leave all that Zyklon B?? I just saw it...) for the Father La.. errr, for Mother Earth!!

Oh, wait, (no) (one) in the (west) would want such a thing! I'm sure they're just Rethuglicans... uhm, never mind.

I believe this is the bill, intuitively titled Small Business Additional Temporary Extension Act of 2011. Apparently, this bill was "amended" by removing and replacing the entire text with the PATRIOT ACT renewal!

Any senator NOT in the following list has some serious explaining to do:
Sen. Max Baucus [D, MT]
Sen. Mark Begich [D, AK]
Sen. Jeff Bingaman [D, NM]
Sen. Sherrod Brown [D, OH]
Sen. Maria Cantwell [D, WA]
Sen. Benjamin Cardin [D, MD]
Sen. Dean Heller [R, NV]
Sen. Patrick Leahy [D, VT]
Sen. Mike Lee [R, UT]
Sen. Jeff Merkley [D, OR]
Sen. Lisa Murkowski [R, AK]
Sen. Rand Paul [R, KY]
Sen. Bernard Sanders [I, VT]
Sen. Jeanne Shaheen [D, NH]
Sen. Jon Tester [D, MT]
Sen. Tom Udall [D, NM]
Sen. Mark Udall [D, CO]
Sen. Ron Wyden [D, OR]

Regardless of anything else they do for an artist, the facts that matter to me as a consumer are: The RIAA believes that it deserves to make money on non-RIAA-members' music, they list non-member (seventh question down) labels as members, legally attack individuals without sufficient evidence, extort money from massive lists of people....basically, they're the mob.

There's nothing they can provide to me that makes it worth doing business with the mob.

http://www.dailykos.com/ . It is a liberal blog. I don't know much more than that. (I have never read it. I've only seen the founder on talk shows).

http://www.revolutionaryviews.com/chris/Eclectablog/JoeHarrisOrders.pdf
http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/04/16/gov-scott-walker-reportedly-planning-financial-martial-law-in-wisconsin/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/15/967374/-UPDATEDx2And-so-it-begins-Emergency-Financial-Mgr-fires-entire-government-of-Benton-Harbor,-MI

When you post [Citation needed], do you actually bother to look? Or is it just a knee-jerk reaction to something you don't agree with?

you need to present some evidence that they did.

Oh, there's plenty of evidence. Too much, actually. Have you actually read the documented sighting reports for the original 1940s-50s wave of UFOs? It's a fascinating piece of history and has very little to do with the Steven Spielberg or Chris Carter media portrayal of UFOs as nuts-and-bolts saucers in the sky piloted by little grey men. Whatever UFOs were/are, they were witnessed by competent military observers - but they seem to inhabit a weird sort of grey zone between optical illusion and physical object. They appear, they're seen, sometimes they trigger radar, they don't do much, they go away, all in all they're pretty boring things. Little dots of light, mostly. The main thing we know is that they don't appear harmful (if you ignore the cases where multiple UFO sightings coincided with nuclear missile silo shutdowns/malfunctions). Bottom line is, we don't know what they are, but we know several things that they are not, and neither an invading extraterrestrial fleet nor an epidemic of synchronised mass hallucination seem to be really sensible explanations.

The UFO phenomenon is very interesting for this reason. But the personalities and politics which surround the field, ugh. Too much confusion, prejudice and conclusion-jumping by even the best writers (and I'd count Jacques Vallee - who by the way, was one of the people who really did 'invent the Internet' back in the day - among them. But even he gets way too paranoid.)

Wait, what? I kept paying for insurance for my daughter (who's generally healthy and therefore a source of income for the insurance company) instead of dropping coverage for her, and that caused rates to go up?

You probably think Republicans are good for the stock market too...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/31/962053/-Just-the-facts,-please:-Stock-performance-under-Clinton,-Bush,-and-Obama

these new mil-spec astroturfers

You may be more right than you intended.

...For a defense contractor with ties to the federal government, Hunton & Williams, DOD, NSA, and the CIA - whose enemies are labor unions, progressive organizations, journalists, and progressive bloggers, a persona apparently goes far beyond creating a mere sockpuppet. According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HBGary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED:-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Think you are on the wrong site, The Daily KOS is over here.

Ahhh... Let's cook-up another "Twitter Revolution".

"But for a defense contractor with ties to the federal government, Hunton & Williams, DOD, NSA, and the CIA - whose enemies are labor unions, progressive organizations, journalists, and progressive bloggers, a persona apparently goes far beyond creating a mere sockpuppet.

According to an embedded MS Word document found in one of the HB Gary emails, it involves creating an army of sockpuppets, with sophisticated "persona management" software that allows a small team of only a few people to appear to be many, while keeping the personas from accidentally cross-contaminating each other. Then, to top it off, the team can actually automate some functions so one persona can appear to be an entire Brooks Brothers riot online."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All

Here's a DailyKos post on the same subject.

Ai konzede.

It's interesting to note, though, that Obama talked about how high-speed rail would allow you to travel "without the pat-downs". I would have expected that he would be in the loop about the TSA's desire to extend airport-style screening to both rail and bus terminals, or that they've already carried out pilot tests doing just that. It makes the President look as if he's losing control when he doesn't appear to be aware what his own administration is doing.

Personal history of hatred, does a person develop it or acquire it?

Daily Kos has an interesting theory: he was mentally unstable and was pushed over the edge by the TV celebrities Beck, O'Reilly, et cetera (and not to mention Sarah Palin) who preach shooting in the head as a way out of the problems of the nation.

Damage control? Who's doing damage control on this? Sarah-- can you send one of your tanning beds down to the jail?, we need to get some color on that boys cheeks before we have him shot in front of the cameras.

Sarah? She was on a hit list for Kos

. ...Well, I'd argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week...

Giffords, Gabrielle (AZ-08)

Don't be upset that the violence incited by your party's leaders had led to assassination. Own it.

2010 will be primary season by Kos
Of course, this takes more than just bitching about your frustrations on a blog, damning a whole party for the actions of a minority more scared of Mr. 28% than of protecting the Constitution they swore to protect. This takes hard work. But now is the time to start.

And while people like me will focus on the task at hand this year, it won't be long after Election Day that we'll start looking at the 2010 map, looking for those great primary challengers.

Who to primary? Well, I'd argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week. I've bolded members of the Blue Dogs for added emphasis.

Giffords, Gabrielle (AZ-08)

Kos isn't the only one.

Kanjorski on Gov.-Elect Rick Scott: "Shoot Him"
Congressman Paul Kanjorski, the Pennsylvania Democrat who just lost his seat to Hazleton Mayor Lou Barletta, a Republican, had another target on his mind before he lost his election.

"That Scott down there that's running for governor of Florida," Mr. Kanjorski said. "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him [sic] and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a damn crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks."

Hate radio?

LIBTALKER: TIME TO DIE
MALLOY (36:25): Well, keep it up boys, just keep it up, um except for one thing: you rat bastards are going to cause another Murrah federal building explosion, you are. And then - what is Beck - maybe at that point Beck will do the honorable thing and blow his brains out.

Maybe at that point, Limbaugh will do the honorable thing and just gobble up enough - enough Viagra that he becomes absolutely rigid and keels over dead.

Maybe then O'Reilly will just drink a vat of the poison he spews out on America every night and choke to death! Because that's what's gonna to happen, that's what they are pushing these right-wing, nut case, fringe, militia jerk-wads to doing!

I know you know that isn't even scratching the surface, or digging for crazy.... well... maybe Malloy. But don't kid yourself there either... I've heard way worse from Malloy.

March 23, 2010 4:49 PM on CBSNews.com:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001021-503544.html

so no link to where the crosshairs were on her face right? Here's a link to loony liberal DailyKos that targets her too.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/25/1204/74882/511/541568

Add to the fact that the guy is a loony leftwing

http://www.businessinsider.com/woman-who-says-she-went-to-school-with-alleged-shooter-says-he-met-giffords-in-2007-2011-1

But do keep on. It's amusing to see everything evil (up to and including stubbed toes) is because of the tea party.

Criticizing the government, protesting and even hating is not a problem. Violence and incitement to violence is the problem. I do not know a poster similar to the crosshair one against Bush. Surely not endorsed by a democrat governor (or VP candidate!). Nothing like this either: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2011/1/8/13371/41091/21#c21

Yes, when left protested against Bush it was all very peaceful and civilized.

Criticizing the government, protesting and even hating is not a problem. Violence and incitement to violence is the problem. I do not know a poster similar to the crosshair one against Bush. Surely not endorsed by a democrat governor (or VP candidate!). Nothing like this either: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2011/1/8/13371/41091/21#c21

Get on Target for Victory in November. Help Remove Gabrielle Giffords from Office. Shoot a Fully Automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly:
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2011/1/8/13371/41091/21#c21

This sounds an awful lot like incitement to commit murder. Is there any chance this tough guy will get charged?

Republicans are sore losers.

Not entirely well said:

Chinese Communism is a kind of socialism, that has some extremes of capitalism along with some extremes of capitalism.

should say

Chinese Communism is a kind of socialism, that has some extremes of capitalism along with some extremes of socialism.

But close enough I suppose.

BTW, while Paul is right to hate the current corporatist system, he's wrong where he says about the current system that Michael Moore hates "It has nothing to do with capitalism." It has everything to do with capitalism, as I said. It's capitalism gone too far: without regulation to protect the people from it (and it from itself).

Ron Paul is the most reliable voter (Appendix One, pg. 37) against any regulation that puts Greenhouse pollution costs on the real books, so economics can govern it properly. Paul is also a theocrat. He's a corporate anarchist: a "libertarian" who believes the government has jurisdiction only over the army and the police - and the police don't have jurisdiction over corporations (only the market has power there). Ron Paul is nuts. But even crazy people can tell that corporatism is killing us.

It's always a pleasure to listen to Dr. Paul...

Does that include when he says something racist? Or anti-science? Or ahistorical and against the separation of church and state?

Ron Paul is a fscking dingbat. That fact that he's right in this issue doesn't change that.

Isn't it a little early to call something like this "the most extreme and influential crowdsourcing"?

I agree. I have no idea why this is on Slashdot. It's not technology news. It's not even news at all.

Back in 2008, Rush Limbaugh tried something similar he called "Operation Chaos", where he encouraged his listeners to switch parties and vote in the Democratic Primary to get Hillary Clinton to win and later to keep her in to lengthen the Primary. The idea was that whoever eventually won would emerge weaker and would lose to McCain. Also, Republicans believed that there were more registered Democrats because of Operation Chaos, and when the election actually happened, they would be revealed as actually Republicans and McCain would win.

As we all know, it didn't work. Obama beat McCain handily. So if Rush Limbaugh, who has millions of listeners couldn't pull this off, how can an unknown website do this?

Moreover, I think it's misleading to suggest that "Democrats" are doing this. I expected to see a link to Democrats.org or to at least a high traffic Democratic Party website, such as dailykos.com. But no, this site has so little traffic that it doesn't even have an Alexa ranking In fact, searching for sites that link to this domain reveal not even Democratic sources, but Republicans (freerepublic.com is the #2 domain in results), so clearly this isn't catching on with Democrats. Whois is masked, so we don't know who actually owns the domain, but it's just as likely to be a Republican astroturfing organization.

So, how did this end up on Slashdot? Was this some sort of paid placement situation or attempt by the domain owner to drive more traffic to the site? Some lame idea of saying that "both sides 'do it' and engage in these types of silly games? Somebody has compromising photos of CmdrTaco? I guess we'll never know.