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iPhone Tracking Ruckus Ongoing

Trailrunner7 writes "A pair of Apple customers has filed a lawsuit against the company, alleging that Apple is invading their privacy by collecting location data about iPhone and iPad users without their knowledge." and theodp noted that the iPhone tracking 'Bug' is actually patent pending... which makes it harder to buy the mistake argument. As if that's not enough fun, South Korea, Italy, Germany and other countries are all looking into it.

353 comments

  1. feature? by galaad2 · · Score: 2, Funny

    it's not a bug, it's a feature!

    --
    root@127.0.0.1
    1. Re:feature? by afex · · Score: 3

      all jokes aside, i actually thought this was really cool when i found out....the map of my parsed backup data (made with the windows version called iOStracker or whatever) was really interesting and i had a great time playing around with the data.

      call my a cynic, but i always sort of assumed this was going on.
      heck, i assumed they logged it on the *CELL TOWER* side of things, not on the phone itself, which is arguably better because at least you can destroy it/prevent it this way. maybe I should be happy?

    2. Re:feature? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd be interested in how many other vendors have implemented such said "features".

    3. Re:feature? by tripleevenfall · · Score: 3, Informative

      Cell towers always logged which cell you were connected to.

      What cell towers didn't do was log on the device side, a detailed record of your lat/long movements, which can then be tied to businesses, paths of travel, personal interests, spending patterns, and your daily comings and goings.

      These things were also not done on a handset containing a myriad of other personal data it could be linked to, and not on handsets that have other applications which are granted access to this data (which the user isn't aware exists).

      They also didn't back this data up to PCs, most of which are windows PCs, which are insecure by definition.

      In short, they had access to exactly one piece of data, what cell tower you were connected to at a given point in time. This is a fantastically intricate web of personal information.

    4. Re:feature? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're holding it wrong!

    5. Re:feature? by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 2

      heck, i assumed they logged it on the *CELL TOWER* side of things, not on the phone itself, which is arguably better because at least you can destroy it/prevent it this way. maybe I should be happy?

      For the truly paranoid, there's an app (for those who've done a jailbreak) to empty the file regularly : untrackerd.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    6. Re:feature? by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 4, Informative

      What cell towers didn't do was log on the device side, a detailed record of your lat/long movements, which can then be tied to businesses, paths of travel, personal interests, spending patterns, and your daily comings and goings.

      They do on their side though. For an example see here. (Thanks to FrykD for pointing this out to me in another slashdot discussion.)
      God knows how they are protecting this data or who has access to it, at least I can take steps to protect my data.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    7. Re:feature? by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      All of them.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    8. Re:feature? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correction - None of them. Not this way. Not doing this. I know - they are so lame.

      Apple fanbois have now resorted to FUD. The end is near?

    9. Re:feature? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NOW? Apple fanbois have been using FUD against Windows, Linux and Android for yonks.

    10. Re:feature? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and a decade ago the FCC "passed legislation" that required the cell phone providers to collect this info. And now the government is inquiring into this practice? Talk about fucking inefficiency!

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    11. Re:feature? by worx101 · · Score: 1

      Wasn't there a sorta subdued outrage not too long ago about Microsoft keeping track. And didn't some people jump down GOogle's throat for logging peoples locations using android also?

    12. Re:feature? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      As the commentor above mentioned, they are logging his phone usage, if he is not doing something on the network, they cannot locate him. They are only showing the tower he is connecting to. Apple is doing more then this.

    13. Re:feature? by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      As the commentor above mentioned, they are logging his phone usage, if he is not doing something on the network, they cannot locate him. They are only showing the tower he is connecting to. Apple is doing more then this.

      They log him when his phone isn't off. Apple does far less.

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    14. Re:feature? by ikeman32 · · Score: 1

      it's not a bug, it's a feature!

      Yeah that's what Microsoft says about it's products. But seriously privacy is an illusion we give our selves to feel secure. How dare Apple shatter that illusion. *insert sarcasm at any point in this message.

    15. Re:feature? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      only when there is a network event, switching towers can happen frequently, with no user intervention. Apple logs this too.

    16. Re:feature? by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      Proof? Thought so.

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    17. Re:feature? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      we can both agree that both versions of logging user location suck, I wouldn't wipe my ass with an Iphone, but that was before this came out. Now I am confident I am correct in avoiding them.

    18. Re:feature? by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      Good for you - get "spied" on the exact same way by your Android then. As for your complete lack of proof, like I said "Thought so".

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
  2. dumb summary again by timster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "mistake argument" isn't claiming that the whole location history implementation is a mistake, it's claiming that it's intended to be a cache, not a permanent archive. Nothing in the patent has anything to do with this.

    --
    I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    1. Re:dumb summary again by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Please explain how the following claim would have any utility at all if it is supposed to be just a cache:

      10. The method of claim 9, further comprising: querying the database for at least a portion of the location history data; retrieving network information from the database that is responsive to the query; translating the network information into position coordinates; displaying a map view; and displaying markers on the map view as a timeline according to the position coordinates, the markers indicating the location history of the location aware device for the time span. .

    2. Re:dumb summary again by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That's purely semantics. It is a cache of visited locations stored in a database, that database can be queried in the way the patent describes.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    3. Re:dumb summary again by DustyShadow · · Score: 1

      Airplanes have been doing for a long time what this invention claims:

      "1. A computer-implemented method performed by a location aware device, the method comprising: configuring a processor of the location aware device to collect network information broadcast from a number of network transmitters over a time span; and storing the network information and corresponding timestamps in a database as location history data. "

    4. Re:dumb summary again by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But how is there any utility with providing that for a cache that might have been deleted 2 minutes ago?

    5. Re:dumb summary again by smelch · · Score: 2

      Are you being serious right now? A cache is there so you don't have to go through a relatively expensive process to get some data. It is not there for you to save data that would otherwise not exist and patent it for use in generating a timeline of where you've been on a map. Sure, you can do that with a cache, but you wouldn't ordinarily specify that in the patent. Tracking, maybe not. Cache, certainly not. Its the difference between cached pages and your browser history.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    6. Re:dumb summary again by COMON$ · · Score: 1

      Yes, this whole situation is blown way out of proportion. This is just another case of the general public realizing that if you have a network connected device you can be tracked. I mean seriously, is it that ridiculous of a concept that a Mobile network provider tracks it's nodes? Seriously? You want to be anonymous on the network? Ok you can switch your own damn towers, manager your own private traffic and route it properly over your own routers spread through the world...

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    7. Re:dumb summary again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as airplanes do not compete with Apple, they can continue doing it without fear of being sued.

    8. Re:dumb summary again by HermMunster · · Score: 1

      This is precisely the problem with this sort of technology. Even if the consumer agrees to tracking they don't really know what is happening. Frankly, it's not possible for them to agree at all. How can someone say that they don't agree, to the EULA, after paying upwards of $500 (or more) for the device. This puts you in a position of having to agree to a EULA (that you didn't have a stake in creating) with contractually obligating clauses that you don't understand and that you don't know precisely what they are doing, and what they are doing the information?

      Even Steve Jobs is rewriting red and blue. Morpheus says to Neo that he has the choice: the red pill will send you back and the blue pill forward. Neo chooses the red pill accepting that he'll just forget everything and go back to his comfort zone. So, Morpheus hands him the blue pill. Neo then exclaims that it's the red pill he wants, and Morpheus redefines red as blue and forces blue on Neo. This is about having the power to influence knowing you have the ability to control the outcome no matter what choice those you influence make.

      Listen, if they are tracking they are tracking. It's precisely that. To the consumer they think that the tracking is just for that session and not long term with the belief that the information won't be passed on or used in any other way. Then they find out that in fact they are being tracked. The Jobsian reality distortion field then goes into full effect with Jobs exclaiming that it is the red pill even though it's blue.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    9. Re:dumb summary again by lcarnevale · · Score: 1

      I don't know how this works in the US (in terms of legal matters), but I live in Argentina, and we have a sort of protection against abusive service contracts (the pre-accorded contracts service providers use that you can't negotiate). So, if you sign a contract in which you can't modify a clause by negotiation you can sue if you think it is abusive, then it's up to a judge and lawyers to determine if you are right or wrong. In this case, the EULA is a kind of pre-accorded contract that you can't negotiate, so I think there must be some kind of laws protecting the people from accepting something that is abusive, and as you point, after you paid $500 to find out you don't agree to their policies.

    10. Re:dumb summary again by Stan92057 · · Score: 2

      Just because they can, doesnt make it right.. There is no good reason for them to keep our movements logged other then the police with a search warrent. Advertisers have NO business tracking anyone unless given permission.

      --
      Jack of all trades,master of none
    11. Re:dumb summary again by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      Please explain how the following claim would have any utility at all if it is supposed to be just a cache:

      10. The method of claim 9, further comprising: querying the database for at least a portion of the location history data; retrieving network information from the database that is responsive to the query; translating the network information into position coordinates; displaying a map view; and displaying markers on the map view as a timeline according to the position coordinates, the markers indicating the location history of the location aware device for the time span. .

      Does cache mean the same thing to you as it does for example, a dictionary? It says "for the time span..." right there in your quote, did you read it? Time span == Cache duration. Since when does a cache need to have expiration times to be a cache anyway??1!

    12. Re:dumb summary again by sribe · · Score: 1

      Please explain how the following claim would have any utility at all if it is supposed to be just a cache...

      OK

      ... querying the database for at least a portion of the location history data...

    13. Re:dumb summary again by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      "the network information can include transmitter identifiers (IDs). For example, Cell IDs can be tracked and recorded. The Cell IDs can be mapped to corresponding cell tower locations which can be used to provide estimated position coordinates of the location aware device. When a location history is requested by a user or application (e.g., through an API), the transmitter IDs can be translated to position coordinates of the location aware device which can be reverse geocoded to map locations for display on a map view or for other purposes."

      In other words cell-id and location is cached, then later when you are at a visited location instead of doing the expensive triangulation you hit the cache to get the location.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    14. Re:dumb summary again by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      By that definition any file on the device would qualify as a cache. However, in computer engineering, Cache has a very specific meaning and use and as it stands now this does not qualify as one. Until it's "fixed", it's a database.

      14. A system, comprising: memory configured for storing a database; and a processor coupled to the memory, the processor configured for collecting network information broadcast from a number of network transmitters over a time span; storing the network information and corresponding timestamps in a database as location history data; receiving a request for location history; and responsive to the request, translating the network information stored in the database into position coordinates.

      20. The system of claim 14, where the database is configured to be searchable by a user of the location aware device.

      Looks like they are planning to store that location data with the phone's MobileMe account. The cache deleted after syncing?

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    15. Re:dumb summary again by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      I don't understand, nearly everything is cached using sqlite databases because they are so easy to use and Apple would know when entries are expired, there is no option to empty the cache manually.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    16. Re:dumb summary again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, this whole situation is blown way out of proportion.

      pfft.. if Microsoft had been discovered harbouring a secret file on their devices logging your every move, then you'd see what proportions we are able to go to around here :)

      So far I'm surprised how easy Apple is let off on this here. Especially interesting with the people defending this practice with the argument that network operators are tracking you anyway. How the heck is a log at the network operator you in sivilized countries need a court order to access an excuse for logging your every move on the damn device, with who knows what access opportunities, for Apple, for apps/advertisers, for hackers (iPhone OS security not exactly bulletproof, to put it mildly).

    17. Re:dumb summary again by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      No, it's a cache. Think of it as a sort of DNS cache: this cell-id points to this location. Eventually you would have to do the lookup again because you have no control over the cell-id's, so you expire data in the cache. Of course the cached data can also be used in other ways, which the patent describes. Big surprise: data can be mined.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    18. Re:dumb summary again by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's purely semantics.

      Speaking of "semantics". Did you notice how the summary's title describes the "ruckus" over Apple's collecting of users' location data?

      Any other company and it would have been a "scandal" or an "outrage" but because it's Apple, it's a "ruckus" as if the people complaining about their whereabouts being tracked were just a pesky bunch of kids who were beating pots and pans together and bothering the adults who were just trying to do what's best for everyone.

      "Ruckus", indeed.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re:dumb summary again by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 0

      That's purely semantics.

      Speaking of "semantics". Did you notice how the summary's title describes the "ruckus" over Apple's collecting of users' location data?

      Any other company and it would have been a "scandal" or an "outrage" but because it's Apple, it's a "ruckus" as if the people complaining about their whereabouts being tracked were just a pesky bunch of kids who were beating pots and pans together and bothering the adults who were just trying to do what's best for everyone.

      "Ruckus", indeed.

      1) if this were any company other than Apple (maybe MS) there wouldn't have been 7 stories on the front page in a week (so far.)
      2) no one is being tracked, it's a local cache of data.
      3) this information was publicly available for a long time, it was in fact even in a book.

      Ruckus sounds about right to me.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    20. Re:dumb summary again by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      1) Call your congressman, MP or whatever you have in your country.
      2) Ask them to make a law
      3) ???
      4) Peace of mind

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    21. Re:dumb summary again by stewbacca · · Score: 3, Funny

      I prefer brouhaha when discussing issues of minor interest as if they are issues of national security.

    22. Re:dumb summary again by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      3) this information was publicly available for a long time, it was in fact even in a book.

      Really? "In a book" you say! You know what else is "in a book"? The tax laws of the United States.

      I would hardly say that something being "in a book" means that it's widely known, especially considering how many people crack a book any more.

      2) no one is being tracked, it's a local cache of data.

      This one is the weakest argument of all. You know what else is a "local cache of data"? The cookies in my browser's cache and companies use cookies to "track" people all the time.

      I'm surprised that here on Slashdot someone would actually say that something being "in a local cache of data" means that it's harmless.

      Can you tell me where in Apple's EULA it says that they'll be collecting (locally or remotely) information about the users' whearabouts?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    23. Re:dumb summary again by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      Ah. Updated after a sync and the data retained elsewhere.

      From: http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/secret-iphone-feature-tracks-owners-whereabouts-042011

      While that information isn't shared with Apple, it is retained even when iPhone users update their hardware, suggesting that Apple had plans to use the data at a later time.

      The notification & unencrypted part needs to be worked on but I'd actually use this I think. Find a great restaurant by accident. Swear you'll note the address, then don't. Now, you can remember when but not exactly where? Or simply wonder if you left your phone at work? Parental controls? Want to know where your kids are? ( Verizon already does this with some of their phones. )

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    24. Re:dumb summary again by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Just FYI, all data on the iPhone is backed up when you sync (including caches, etc.) This is so if you replace your phone and you restore from backup it is in exactly the same state as your previous one.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    25. Re:dumb summary again by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      There's no point to providing an pretty interface to historic data if that historic data it just a cache that should only comtain the last 25 seconds of data, or the last 3 hours of data.

      It's not a description of a temporary cache, it's a description of a creating and using a data source for location information.

      of course just because you have a patent/patenf application doesn't mean you are doing that in everything you make that shares some vague characteristics with it.

    26. Re:dumb summary again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who says you have to delete the entire cache when you expire information? Typically you just delete the oldest records.

      And anyway, a patent's claims are often far removed from the actual products it relates to. They will try to claim every probably use case, even those not practiced by the product, because in case prior art knocks out some claims, you can fall back to the remaining claims to keep the patent application from getting rejected completely.

    27. Re:dumb summary again by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      Please explain how the following claim would have any utility at all if it is supposed to be just a cache:

      Please explain why Android stores the same information in a cache when its useless in a cache?

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    28. Re:dumb summary again by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      There's no point to providing an pretty interface to historic data if that historic data it just a cache that should only comtain the last 25 seconds of data, or the last 3 hours of data.

      Please explain why the Android's cache isn't time constrained.

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    29. Re:dumb summary again by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      That's purely semantics.

      Speaking of "semantics". Did you notice how the summary's title describes the "ruckus" over Apple's collecting of users' location data?

      I noticed it didn't contain the word "Android" even so they keep the same data, and are attacked by the same people making a "ruckus" over Apple. Odd that you didn't.

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    30. Re:dumb summary again by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      By that definition any file on the device would qualify as a cache. However, in computer engineering, Cache has a very specific meaning and use and as it stands now this does not qualify as one. Until it's "fixed", it's a database.

      14. A system, comprising: memory configured for storing a database; and a processor coupled to the memory, the processor configured for collecting network information broadcast from a number of network transmitters over a time span; storing the network information and corresponding timestamps in a database as location history data; receiving a request for location history; and responsive to the request, translating the network information stored in the database into position coordinates.

      20. The system of claim 14, where the database is configured to be searchable by a user of the location aware device.

      Looks like they are planning to store that location data with the phone's MobileMe account. The cache deleted after syncing?

      A. the file fits the definition of cache you gave. B. No it doesn't "look like they are planning to store that location data with the phone's MobileMe account". Where did you get that idea from - not from what you quoted. Note how it says "storing the network information", not "storing over a network connection".

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    31. Re:dumb summary again by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Why?

      That's completely irrelevent to anything being discussed.

    32. Re:dumb summary again by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      What Apple is doing also fits the definition of "permanent log file."

    33. Re:dumb summary again by Comboman · · Score: 1

      if this were any company other than Apple (maybe MS) there wouldn't have been 7 stories on the front page in a week (so far.)

      And if this were any company other than Apple, there wouldn't have been 7 stories on the front page about them releasing a phone that's identical to their current phone except that it's white. Being a publicity whore is a double-edged sword, it cuts both ways.

      --
      Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    34. Re:dumb summary again by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      You obvious Apple bitterness aside, I actually disagree. Since the file stays on the phone and isn't transmitted to Apple then really what should be a minor issue has turned into ridiculous hyperbole and hit whore headlines simply BECAUSE it was Apple. This has been blown WAY out of proportion and it's a great way for sites to get tons of free hits, because Apple news means traffic.

    35. Re:dumb summary again by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      You obviously have some issue with Apple. Your ridiculous slant on this, like Apple is getting off scott free, indicates you've got some Apple hate issues to work through before you can make anything resembling an unbiased commentary on the issue. And you air of superiority aside, your comments above show you obviously didn't understand his points.

      1. This was NEVER secret. All this information was known long ago. Hence this is just a huge PR stunt by the "researchers" and trumped up hysteria by media and bloggers (and now Senators).

      2. It's a LOCAL cache. You are NOT being tracked. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your anger and disinformation.

    36. Re:dumb summary again by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      B. No it doesn't "look like they are planning to store that location data with the phone's MobileMe account". Where did you get that idea from - not from what you quoted. Note how it says "storing the network information", not "storing over a network connection".

      In part, from: http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/secret-iphone-feature-tracks-owners-whereabouts-042011

      "While that information isn't shared with Apple, it is retained even when iPhone users update their hardware, suggesting that Apple had plans to use the data at a later time."

      They are keeping that data. Why? Just to fill memory and they needed some data and location data just happened to be handy?

      Cloud storage just seems the next logical step for the addition of such things as better parental controls and, of course, data mining. With that data, If a user searched for a place, the results could be ordered by search term relevance and not only by how close they are to the user's current position but also to how close they are to the places the user most frequents.

      Mind you, I use Google Latitude so I'm in no position to bust on Apple for doing this. That convenience has a cost though and you'd have to be an idiot to not see what the plan is for this type of data.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    37. Re:dumb summary again by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      B. No it doesn't "look like they are planning to store that location data with the phone's MobileMe account". Where did you get that idea from - not from what you quoted. Note how it says "storing the network information", not "storing over a network connection".

      In part, from: http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/secret-iphone-feature-tracks-owners-whereabouts-042011

      "While that information isn't shared with Apple, it is retained even when iPhone users update their hardware, suggesting that Apple had plans to use the data at a later time."

      Pure conjecture - "we can't think of anything they can use this data for now, so obviously they don't use it for anything now, so they obviously plan on using it for later". The fact that all data on an iPhone that Apple thinks is useful for the operation of the device is backed up, and that this means it carries over to other devices synced to the same machine was obviously alien to them - because hey, telling your new device all the things your old device knew about is half of the fun of buying new stuff, right?

      Anyway. what does this have to do with MobileMe?

      As for your question what the data can be used for: guesstimation of position without having to access a database over the net (wich BTW would prevent evil Apple from knowing where you are right now), for use as the starting point for Assisted GPS. I wouldn't be surprised you cold use it for this even when you couldn't get any internet access if just one of the closed WiFi access points around was in the cache.

      But ask yourself the question: if the data can only be used later, why does Android store basically the same data (only limited to a smaller number of data points).

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    38. Re:dumb summary again by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      It also fits the definition of "SQL database". Do you have a point?

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    39. Re:dumb summary again by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      Why?

      That's completely irrelevent to anything being discussed.

      It wasn't until you decided that "cache" meant time constrained. So answer the question, or drop your silly definition.

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    40. Re:dumb summary again by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

      Why?

      That's completely irrelevent to anything being discussed.

      It wasn't until you decided that "cache" meant time constrained. So answer the question, or drop your silly definition.

      Sorry, it was irrelevant until you made it relevant.

      --
      Fandroids hate facts.
    41. Re:dumb summary again by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      Pure conjecture

      Yeah it is.

      I'm not saying that the data isn't being used now and "can only be used later". I'm saying it's very handy to keep permanently for later use in other applications that can benefit from having that history. Quite frankly, if someone is that concerned, don't carry around a GPS device.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    42. Re:dumb summary again by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      It's irrelevant because what Android does or does not do has exactly nothing to do with whether a patent claim makes sense when refering to a temporary cache.

      Why would I bother looking up some details about a product I don't care about to explain something that makes no sense anyway?

  3. Patent Pending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple Patent Application #54955959938734

    Mobile Phone - A device that makes and receives telephone calls. The device sends and receives data wirelessly, and is powered by an internal battery.

    1. Re:Patent Pending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that was patent #8675309JENNY.

  4. OMG big brother... by gbrandt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Everybody take a deep breath. The log does not go to Apple, it stays on the phone. Apple is not tracking anybody, your phone is...but its your phone so where is the problem.

    Worst case, maybe they should have encrypted the file.

    Big Deal.

    1. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hear Apple has this app store thing, and batteries that are a pain to replace...

      Long story short, to access your phone, all they have to do is wait.

    2. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem comes when you have states like Michigan where the police are allegedly downloading information from a smart phone in a minute or two and then, conceivably, can use that location information against you any way they want. Big problem.

      http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/michigan-police-being-questioned-for-extracting-smartphone-data/
       

    3. Re:OMG big brother... by mikael_j · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hush now, don't ruin a good anti-Apple flamefest. You're not giving the haters a chance to proclaim that they've never used, never owned, never wished to own or even seen an Apple product in real life but they're still horribly outraged and this great assault on their human rights by the evil empire led by the great satan, Steve Jobs.

      Yes, I'm exaggerating but I can't help but be slightly baffled by the hordes of people who seem to think that Apple is somehow more powerful in the world of computing than Microsoft or that they are "more evil" than MS has ever been. Not to mention the fact that about half of them swear they've never used a mac or iDevice in their lives yet they are experts on the subject...

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    4. Re:OMG big brother... by cpu6502 · · Score: 5, Funny

      >>>its your phone so where is the problem.

      When the cop pulls you over, and decides to take your phone for further examination, and discovers you've been attending (the horror) Libertarian and Ron Paul "Campaign For Liberty" meetings. Followed by a radio call that he's obtained a "suspected terrorist" and is bringing the suspect back to the station for questioning.

      *
      *Background: The U.S. and a few State governments distribute leaflets that Libertarian and Paul supporters are potential domestic terrorists and/or militia members.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    5. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for your thoughtful and erudite response.

    6. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe they see that you recently went shopping for a Casio watch: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-casio-wristwatch-alqaida?INTCMP=SRCH

    7. Re:OMG big brother... by Altus · · Score: 1

      This is a legal problem, not a technological one. If you don't want cops using your cell phone against you like that the solution is to make it illegal.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    8. Re:OMG big brother... by arkham6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, but the problem is that apple is not tracking anybody, its that apple is not tracking anybody....yet.

      Also, there is the issue of why the phone is doing this in the first place. Why spend the time programming this 'feature' into a phone unless its going to be used for something.

      Just because apple isnt doing anything evil with this data does not mean they could not later, or someone else could make a trojan to gather this data now that its widely known.

      Apple is getting stomped for this, and rightly so.

    9. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anytime.

    10. Re:OMG big brother... by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hush now, don't ruin a good anti-Apple flamefest. You're not giving the haters a chance to proclaim that they've never used, never owned, never wished to own or even seen an Apple product in real life but they're still horribly outraged and this great assault on their human rights by the evil empire led by the great satan, Steve Jobs.

      Yes, I'm exaggerating but I can't help but be slightly baffled by the hordes of people who seem to think that Apple is somehow more powerful in the world of computing than Microsoft or that they are "more evil" than MS has ever been. Not to mention the fact that about half of them swear they've never used a mac or iDevice in their lives yet they are experts on the subject...

      These are mundane issues concerning device design and business decisions. It is not some vast unknowable thing that can only be experienced. It can be researched and anyone willing to do that can acquaint themselves with the facts. If you think someone is misinformed tell him where he is factually incorrect.

      I admit I may be misunderstanding you, but what you're doing there seems like dismissal. It's similar to the tactics of the worst "anti-Apple" types and therefore it won't reveal the error of their ways. Right now, you say they probably don't own Apple devices. You say that like the following never occurred to you: maybe they don't own an Apple device because they did some research before spending the money and learned ahead of time that such devices wouldn't suit their needs. I'd consider that person more pro-active and likely more wise than someone who blindly invests in something and ends up dissatisfied when the information was out there the whole time.

      So if someone does own an Apple device and has complaints about it, what then? Are they now hypocrites for buying something they later decided they didn't like? Does worrying so much about their character do anything to address the legitimacy of any complaint they have about the design of the device? I don't believe so.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    11. Re:OMG big brother... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      I hear Apple has this app store thing, and batteries that are a pain to replace...

      Long story short, to access your phone, all they have to do is wait.

      Assuming, of course, you don't use one of the several third-party battery-replacement services.

    12. Re:OMG big brother... by whiteboy86 · · Score: 1

      Correction, the location database is stored naked on the PC/Mac syncing side, so the problem is affecting PCs too (any malware can take a look...).

    13. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "First they came for the Apple-product-owners,
      and I didn't speak out because I wasn't an Apple-product-owner."

      If Apple does this and gets away with it, then everyone else will also do it and get away with it. And then we're one step further in a direction many of us don't want to go in. I applaud everyone who is outraged and speaks their voice. Freedom of speech is the shit.

    14. Re:OMG big brother... by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Or to not use a cell phone that does that. but that's made difficult when it's done without telling you...

    15. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Michigan, the governor can also waltz into your town and dissolve your elected government.
      In Michigan, you can vote, but it doesn't matter.
      In MIchigan, you can be taxed, but your representation will be chosen by the governor if you elect the wrong people.

      Michigan is not a state of free people, it is hardly surprising that this is ongoing.

    16. Re:OMG big brother... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      The problem comes when you have states like Michigan where the police are allegedly downloading information from a smart phone in a minute or two and then, conceivably, can use that location information against you any way they want. Big problem.

      http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/michigan-police-being-questioned-for-extracting-smartphone-data/

      Not that I am defending the privacy invasion by the police in ANY way; but is that location information fine-grained enough to say where, to a certainly, you went? I mean, unless you're talking about a rural area, where places are far enough apart to pinpoint, isn't it just guesswork to say "You visited thus and so" in a congested urban location?

    17. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what if you volunteered your cellular phone to the police, ICE, or DHS agents because you believed you had nothing personal on it because you merely use it as a phone or to download (and immediately delete) messages or emails, and simply didn't know there was an unencrypted log of your global position sitting on it? Sure, that may not have been smart, but perhaps you had to catch a flight for an important meeting and decided a harmless bit of privacy intrusion wasn't something to miss a flight over? People make these kinds of decisions often--they hand over their devices to corporate security personnel, airport security, government workers. When they do so, they are considering privacy, and the information they have stored on their devices. However, they were making uninformed decisions, because they were unaware that on their phones (and apparently on computers they synced their phones to) was sitting an unencrypted travelogue.

      Sure, the police, corporate security, and DHS agents probably didn't know that either. But maybe they did. Or maybe they copied an image of the device/hard drive, and now they can mine data they collected months ago.

      Yes, this sort of behavior is unethical. So is sneaking into your office, copying an image of your device or hard disk when you're not around. Apple isn't responsible for people doing that. However, for users of Apple products, they need to make informed decisions about security when it comes to their computers and handheld devices, and perhaps many users would have made different security decisions (about locking things away from thieves or family members or unethical coworkers or competitors at conferences) had they known just what sensitive information their device was storing.

      No, it's not Big Brother-esque. It's just incredibly lazy and stupid.

    18. Re:OMG big brother... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      Based on the articles, it's pretty clear you were traveling along a highway. That's more than enough to say you were in that area.

      There is some debate over how accurate it is, since it isn't 'true' GPS. The fewer the towers the less accurate it is apparently. But in congested cities? Might be able to pin you down to a block at a certain time. And that's *plenty* to hold you for further questioning if they want too.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    19. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "When the cop pulls you over, and decides to take your phone for further examination, and discovers you've been attending (the horror) Libertarian and Ron Paul "Campaign For Liberty" meetings."

      Good luck trying to figure that out from approximately km-scale precision unless they regularly hold their meetings in the middle of a gigantic field somewhere or on a small island surrounded by plenty of water. It's cell tower positions, not the phone's GPS position. Upon searching your phone the best they get is a list of cell phone tower positions where you were within a few km. Big deal. That's like saying "phoned from somewhere in downtown Kansas City on the 5th of November". They could probably figure the same thing out from gas station receipts or a train ticket, and it's sufficiently vague that your date with that Libertarian hottie at the Ron Paul meeting will probably go unnoticed.

      All Apple needs to do is clear the cache more frequently. Problem solved.

    20. Re:OMG big brother... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      Android is already doing this.

      That said, all Apple is doing is making it *easier* to do. Phones have long tracked your location, they just didn't store it in a readily available format that an officer could read while standing next to your car.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    21. Re:OMG big brother... by Jazzbunny · · Score: 1

      Do you have any reliable sources for your claim? F-secure says using the default settings your data is sent to Apple twice a day.

    22. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Apple would prefer the phone *not* be yours, right? Apple, and all of these other tech services industries, can't keep making the claim that they can change EULA's and ToS's whenever they want because the OS/Software/System/Etc is actually theirs and not yours -- but then turn around and claim that it *isn't* theirs when it isn't convenient.

      If Apple keeps arguing that the OS, software, etc on your devices actually belongs to them, then this file also belongs to them, and by virtue of it being on your phone, it already belongs to Apple. Your phone doesn't have to send it to anywhere, if the software isn't yours, the service isn't yours, and all the included data isn't yours, then this file doesn't belong to you either. So who does it belong to? Apple. It's already their's, whether sent or not.

      This story is bigger than just this situation with Apple. This needs to apply to Sony and PS3's, Google and Androids, Valve and Steam, etc, etc. This case needs to set a standard on ownership regulations, and what these companies can actually claim. It's been far too long for this to be addressed.

    23. Re:OMG big brother... by brooklynwry · · Score: 2

      With all due respect, this is not a problem with the functionality of the device, rather a problem with the state's ability to peer into things and interpret them in ways it shouldn't. Apple concealing this database would make it slightly more difficult for police to deduce something about you, but it certainly doesn't stop them - the only thing that would stop the "problem" you're describing would be reform of pertinent laws.

      For one thing, admissibility in court hasn't even begun to be established. This location information is loose at best, and flat-out-wrong in a lot of cases (apparently I've been to Jamaica a few times in recent years; I must have been under the influence at the time as I've no recollection).

      To put it simply, it's reasonable to wish that Apple wouldn't leave personal or private information exposed. It's reasonable to expect that of yourself, as well - one shouldn't leave their phone about, it's full of *personal information*. So in order for any breach to occur, both Apple and end-user must fail at this "reasonable" responsibility.

    24. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not what apple told Congressman Markey and Barton http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/2011/04/applemarkeybarton7-12-10.pdf

    25. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 2

      No, it is not enough to track you with any real precision. I looked at my own data using the binary that was linked in the earlier article about this - There appears to be very little certainty, other than showing a "general region" of where you were. It's not a running tally of every point you've passed through in the past year. It *appears* to have an approximately ~75-100 mile radius of my actual location, and seems to be more properly a database of the locations of *cell phone towers my phone has connected to*. Even that's fuzzy, because there are points showing up which are absolutely *not* in any location I've visited in recent memory, and points which I haven't come within hundreds of miles of in years.

      Certainly enough imprecision that using it as the sole evidence to convict or accuse me of a crime would be laughable.

    26. Re:OMG big brother... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1, Informative

      I just assume Ron Paul supporters and libertarians are racist women haters.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul/Newsletters_sandbox#Ron_Paul_newsletter_controversy

      In 2006, Paul joined 32 other members of Congress in opposing the renewal of the 1965 Voting Rights Act, originally passed to remove barriers to voting participation for minorities.

      Opposed to Civil Rights Act of 1964.

      Paul introduced the Sanctity of Life Act of 2005, a bill that would have defined human life to begin at conception, and removed challenges to prohibitions on abortion from federal court jurisdiction.

    27. Re:OMG big brother... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Correction, the location database is stored naked on the PC/Mac syncing side, so the problem is affecting PCs too (any malware can take a look...).

      PEBCAK: encryption of the backup can be turned on by checking a single checkbox.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    28. Re:OMG big brother... by mdarksbane · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Still doesn't really matter, because the phone company has this information on you anyway, and the DOJ has been claiming they can access it without a warrant for years.

      Personally I'm *much* more worried about the personal location history on ATT's servers that I *don't* get a notification if the police sniff, than anything that is sitting on my own device.

    29. Re:OMG big brother... by Coldmoon · · Score: 1

      ...Big Deal

      So you are of the opinion that it is ok to have a database; whose existence appears to be a mystery to about 90% of the public; that keeps detailed location data for an indefinite period of time (ref: years); that is unencrypted; that can be accessed not only by thieves, but Law Enforcement as well; that can be used to provide a detailed time-line map of where you have been; is not a big deal?

      Are you really that apathetic? No wonder we are loosing our freedoms at an ever increasing pace...

      --
      Coldmoon over Dark water...
    30. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 4, Insightful

      its that apple is not tracking anybody....yet.

      Sounds like a job for the pre-crime division! I find it terribly amusing that we're speculating about Apple's possible nefarious use of this technology at some indeterminate point in the future, in a thread labeled "OMG big brother."

    31. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's pretty serious if it's used against you. Mine shows me all over the place within 2-3 miles, despite it being on my desk the whole time.

    32. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 1

      You're right - by default. It's worth noting that this data is not accessible if you encrypt your backups.

    33. Re:OMG big brother... by mikael_j · · Score: 1, Troll

      Oh, I have no problem with discussions about this and related topics. I'm just fed up with the slobbering hordes of "anti-fanboys" who show up every time Apple is mentioned (there is a similar but smaller reaction for Google, Microsoft and most other high-profile tech companies, Apple seems to be the main target for the "cool to hate" crowd and has been so for a while now).

      These commenters rarely contribute to the discussion, don't bother reading up on the issues at hand and instead tend to just resort to fear-mongering, misinterpretations and of course outright name-calling.

      This is an issue that should be discussed but the vast majority of comments I've seen so far have been along the lines of "APPLE SI TEH EVül!!1 STAEV JOBS IS SUING IS SATTEILT IN ORBIT TO TARKC UR POSISHION!!! ANY1 STIL USING CRAPPLE IPHONIE IS AN IDIOTS OR A FAGET 4 STAVE JOBS CAWK!!11one" (really, when venturing outside of "geek circles" and onto the internet at large that isn't very far from a very large number of comments I've seen although most have worse punctuation and don't use all-caps, the caps-lock is pretty much implied from the tone of the posts though)

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    34. Re:OMG big brother... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      That's for location services, which can be turned off. It's been established that that has nothing to do with the file in question.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    35. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My biggest concern would be that Apple collected the information and then left it lying around ( unencrypted yet )! I find this extremely irresponsible.

        It's almost like they teamed up with a crime syndicate.

      Very big deal.

    36. Re:OMG big brother... by macs4all · · Score: 0

      Based on the articles, it's pretty clear you were traveling along a highway. That's more than enough to say you were in that area. There is some debate over how accurate it is, since it isn't 'true' GPS. The fewer the towers the less accurate it is apparently. But in congested cities? Might be able to pin you down to a block at a certain time. And that's *plenty* to hold you for further questioning if they want too.

      It's pretty clear that it is simply a database that is used BY THE PHONE for two purposes (and ONLY two purposes) :

      1. To help prevent DROPPED CALLS, by keeping a running database of nearby CELL TOWERS.

      2. To provide COARSE-GRAINED "location" information for "Location Services".

      BTW, in case you didn't know, every CELL CARRIER keeps this same information for EVERY cell phone, by LAW, in perpetuity. Sucks, I know (and agree); but no one forces you to use a cellphone.

      Apple isn't using this information. The phone is.

    37. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh ok, thanks for letting me know. I'm going to stand idle until Apple does use this information in a way I don't approve, then I'm going to be REALLY mad about it! Not a moment too soon though. /sarcasm

      Apple go caught with their pants down, exhibiting big brother behavior, thankfully before they were able to do anything with it. We're well within reason to let Apple know this is unacceptable double standards.

    38. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Android equivalent is opt-in. When you check it, the system explicitly states that you are opting in to share your location data and asks if you're sure that's what you want to do.

    39. Re:OMG big brother... by chispito · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't you be upset if you found out that you were carrying around a location logger for the last year? Law enforcement doesn't have to subpoena anything, it's all right there within reach if you are arrested for anything. I am not paranoid about US law enforcement in general, I just don't feel this is necessary and has the potential to be easily abused.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    40. Re:OMG big brother... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Oh, I have no problem with discussions about this and related topics. I'm just fed up with the slobbering hordes of "anti-fanboys" who show up every time Apple is mentioned (there is a similar but smaller reaction for Google, Microsoft and most other high-profile tech companies, Apple seems to be the main target for the "cool to hate" crowd and has been so for a while now).

      These commenters rarely contribute to the discussion, don't bother reading up on the issues at hand and instead tend to just resort to fear-mongering, misinterpretations and of course outright name-calling.

      You are exhibiting all the symptoms of cult-like behavior. You've got a set vocabulary of names to use for your perceived opponents, and stereotypical behavior sets to cast them into.

      That makes you one of those Apple zealots that 'The Rest Of Us' have had to deal with for decades now. We're always happy to tell people like you to fuck off, btw.

    41. Re:OMG big brother... by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between "be upset" and "lash out with rage based mostly on baseless speculation and preconceived notions", the latter is what bugs me. Those who immediately jump to "APPLE IS EVIL!" and make up "facts" based on the most inflammatory headline about the subject they could find (I've seen several major newspapers state outright that Apple was "tracking where you go" which was of course the "fact" all the Apple haters jumped on, not the articles that described in detail just how consolidated.db was used and stored).

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    42. Re:OMG big brother... by markkezner · · Score: 1

      That is not a sane default. Apple products are made to be useful to the inexperienced. Such users would typically not even consider configuring such things.

      --
      Dangerous, sexy, turing complete: Femme Bots
    43. Re:OMG big brother... by kevinNCSU · · Score: 1

      Like any Ron Paul or Libertarian event attender is going to consent to a search of their electronic devices without a warrant ;)

    44. Re:OMG big brother... by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      That's preposterous. They aren't going to stop you and take your phone for no reason other than snooping. If you happened to be wearing a casio F91W wristwatch, then you were just asking for it.

    45. Re:OMG big brother... by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem comes when you have states like Michigan where the police are allegedly downloading information from a smart phone in a minute or two

      Please stop spreading this nonsense. This isn't "insightful", it is inciteful. There are no allegations, at least no serious ones, that the Michigan State Police are doing any such thing. The only allegation is that they COULD do it because they have a piece of equipment that could do it.

      Not even the ACLU has found anyone who has claimed they are doing it. All it would take it one person to stand up and say "this happened to me" and the ACLU would be all over it. They aren't. They're "investigating" the policies by putting in FOIA requests. The ACLU doesn't need FOIA, they need a victim, and apparently they haven't got even one of those to sue on behalf of.

      The link you provide is just another one of the "they could be" flamebait articles. They "can" do this. That's all it says. Well, no shit. So can a lot of other people who have bought the CellBrite system. It makes no claims that it is happening. It doesn't even pretend to say that there is even one known victim of this "big problem", as you call it. It DOES try to make it an issue of minority rights by telling us, in essence, "think of the minorities this is happening to." Think of the children.

      COULD DO is not the same as IS DOING. Until there is some shred of evidence that it IS being done, stop claiming it is.

    46. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to say "enhance" !

    47. Re:OMG big brother... by smelch · · Score: 1

      Your definition of racist and women hater are so skewed it makes me wonder if you really know what it means to be racist or sexist. Actually it doesn't make me wonder, it lets me know.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    48. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is used for something. And it's actually been explained on Slashdot several times, in very informative detail. It makes sense for the phone to have this database of information specifically so that the phone does NOT contact an outside source for information (ala Android) and instead maintains its own database of information. This cache actually _increases_ your privacy. It should be encrypted, yes, but its existence is actually good for you.

      I'll let you look through the other discussions on the topic to find a very informative and detailed description of why this is so - the posts exist and are worth the read.

    49. Re:OMG big brother... by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      You are exhibiting all the symptoms of cult-like behavior. You've got a set vocabulary of names to use for your perceived opponents, and stereotypical behavior sets to cast them into.

      So according to you if a person has "a set vocabulary of names to use for perceived opponents" (I never claimed they were my opponents, I claimed they were disruptive to discussions about the subject at hand) and is able to identify "stereotypical behavior sets to cast them into" that is all that is required to reliably determine that the person is a cultist?

      That makes you one of those Apple zealots that 'The Rest Of Us' have had to deal with for decades now. We're always happy to tell people like you to fuck off, btw.

      I've never owned a 68k or PPC mac. So much for "decades". I have however owned two Intel-based macs. I've also owned dozens of other computers running everything from MINIX and SV-BASIC to Plan 9, Windows Vista and IRIX. I'm not saying Apple and their products are flawless, I'm saying that screaming that they're evil without even bothering to check the facts isn't really getting us anywhere as a civilization.

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    50. Re:OMG big brother... by smelch · · Score: 1

      But if you DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE DOING THIS then why would you turn it on? Are you saying it should be a matter of course that we encrypt everything? Maybe we should check all of our food for poison before we eat it too, and wear gas masks at work just in case.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    51. Re:OMG big brother... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      BTW, in case you didn't know, every CELL CARRIER keeps this same information for EVERY cell phone, by LAW, in perpetuity

      Yes I do know that. The cop pulling you over for speeding does *not* have access to that information and needs a damn warrant to get it. (not getting into whether the warrant thing is even true anymore (thanks GWB!).

      Apple isn't using this information. The phone is.

      Really? You don't see this data being misused in *any* way going forward? That its stored in plain text on PCs when you sync?

      I'm not worried (much) about Apple using this data, I'm worried about other people using this data that Apple has so conveniently collected for them on *my* phone.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    52. Re:OMG big brother... by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      In Michigan, the governor can also waltz into your town and dissolve your elected government.
      In Michigan, you can vote, but it doesn't matter.
      In MIchigan, you can be taxed, but your representation will be chosen by the governor if you elect the wrong people.

      [Citation needed]

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    53. Re:OMG big brother... by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      ...but its your phone so where is the problem.

      ding! ding! THAT is the problem.

      It isn't my phone. Not according to the 50+ page EULA I agree to every time I install a 0.99 cent piece of software. Not according to AT&T who hides a fee in my service plan to cover the cost of the subsidy since I didn't pay full price for it. If it was my phone, then I could open it up, remove the SD card, insert it into my computer, delete the file, and modify the directory permissions so that the file could never be created again.

      I can't do any of those things, and I probably agreed to a license that says I won't try them, won't reverse engineer it, and won't badmouth the company that did it. So... whose phone is it?

      I agree with you to some degree: it is in my pocket and as long as the phone doesn't send the file to anyone it doesn't matter. But the file shouldn't be there in the first place, and Apple is acting very fishy so clearly something more is happening. We need to remain vigilant against this stuff.

    54. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Call it a pre-crime if you will, but the general approach of industry is to exploit the value of all things to the fullest extent possible within the bounds of the law. When an industry spokesperson tells me "We're not going to use it - honest" I can't help but roll my eyes. Challenge: Show me the statute, the law, which expressly prohibits your "use" of the data? You can't can you? There's no law prohibiting it, ergo THEY ARE GOING TO USE THAT DATA FOR PROFIT. If said profit comes at your expense then so be it - there's no law that says expressly that I have to be nice to you either. Even if there was we could ramble on about what 'nice' means anyway - much like the 'unlimited' in your unlimited data plans you're subscribing to.

    55. Re:OMG big brother... by ArcCoyote · · Score: 1

      What I find sad is how the ACLU is focusing on Michigan, when just about every PD with a computer forensics lab has one of these devices or similar.

      Michigan police aren't downloading smartphone contents during routine traffic stops. They aren't even doing it for routine arrests. Only when a search warrant is served that includes the phone.

      If you have a passcode on your iPhone, they need to seize the computer you sync it with to enable the UFED to image the phone. They're not going to get that unless they serve a warrant, and if they have that, they have your backups anyway.

      Another good reason to have a passcode: Just to be safe, if you get pulled over for any reason, turn your iPhone off. Don't try to wipe it or do anything shady, just turn it off "so it won't interrupt you while you're speaking with the officer." If by some chance your vehicle is searched and the officer turns it on, it will be locked. If the phone is passcode locked, the contents of the phone are not 'in plain sight' even if the phone is.

    56. Re:OMG big brother... by smelch · · Score: 1

      Microsoft hated less than Apple? I hardly think so. Not here. Not anywhere.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    57. Re:OMG big brother... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The description of the operation is that it helps with improving the speed at which location services obtains a lock. It's used solely as an internal cache, but when sync'ed, it's stored in cleartext on the host computer (otherwise it would never have been found, as scanning all data sent to Apple has never revealed this being sent back). It's an optimization for location services which operates even with location services turned off.

      Now, I may be wrong, as that's what Apple is seeming to indicate, and there's absolutely no evidence to the contrary, but that doesn't exclude some master plan where this was just the first step.

    58. Re:OMG big brother... by gbrandt · · Score: 1

      Right, so we might as well stop selling knives, because someone might stab someone in the future. Or stop selling guns, or stop selling axes, or matches.

      All these things COULD be used to do damage.

      Where do you draw a line, and why do you draw it. I suspect its arbitrary.

    59. Re:OMG big brother... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      But if you DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE DOING THIS then why would you turn it on? Are you saying it should be a matter of course that we encrypt everything? Maybe we should check all of our food for poison before we eat it too, and wear gas masks at work just in case.

      To protect your contact database, your call history, your sms history or any data your apps save ? There's a bunch of reasons you would want to encrypt your phone backup, kinda the point of why it's even an option.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    60. Re:OMG big brother... by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Deciding when a woman can have birth control, thats not sexist, men know better than women.

      Calling Martin Luther King as a "pro-communist philanderer" and to Martin Luther King Day as "hate Whitey day." "Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities." Saying the Los Angeles riots of 1992 only stopped when it came time for "blacks to pick up their welfare checks". None of that is racist or sexist, just good old common sense.

    61. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *Background: The U.S. and a few State governments distribute leaflets that Libertarian and Paul supporters are potential domestic terrorists and/or militia members. [citation needed]

    62. Re:OMG big brother... by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh, I have no problem with discussions about this and related topics. I'm just fed up with the slobbering hordes of "anti-fanboys" who show up every time Apple is mentioned (there is a similar but smaller reaction for Google, Microsoft and most other high-profile tech companies, Apple seems to be the main target for the "cool to hate" crowd and has been so for a while now).

      These commenters rarely contribute to the discussion, don't bother reading up on the issues at hand and instead tend to just resort to fear-mongering, misinterpretations and of course outright name-calling.

      This is an issue that should be discussed but the vast majority of comments I've seen so far have been along the lines of "APPLE SI TEH EVül!!1 STAEV JOBS IS SUING IS SATTEILT IN ORBIT TO TARKC UR POSISHION!!! ANY1 STIL USING CRAPPLE IPHONIE IS AN IDIOTS OR A FAGET 4 STAVE JOBS CAWK!!11one" (really, when venturing outside of "geek circles" and onto the internet at large that isn't very far from a very large number of comments I've seen although most have worse punctuation and don't use all-caps, the caps-lock is pretty much implied from the tone of the posts though)

      It's possible that I am about to bring up a distinction that means something only to me. Having said that ...

      Let's assume for argument's sake that you have characterized the anti-fanbois with complete accuracy. Here's my question: why do you consider it something you need to straighten out? Does not Apple have a marketing department, PR people, official spokespersons, the ability to launch marketing campaigns, etc.?

      Just about the only time I don't feel that way is when Linux is the subject. You could call that a bias, I suppose, but it's quite unique for a bias because I have an objective reason. There is no single corporation that owns Linux. There's no marketing department anyplace that represents all of Linux. Maybe Red Hat has marketers that represent Red Had Linux but they don't own Linux itself any more than I do. Most of what they'd be marketing is along the lines of paid support. In the absence of one central representative entity, it is mostly the relatively decentralized community of uses and enthusiasts who perform most of the advocation and support.

      I am humbled by the comparison between how much I have benefitted from using Linux and GPL software, when that is compared to how much I have personally helped out. But I do help out. I try to answer forums, though most of the time I am helping people I know personally to understand and master this OS. I can actually get personally involved, pitch in, contribute some effort. I can be an actual part of the Linux community, however small. Therefore I do have some kind of stake in it, in a way that I don't have a personal stake in the success of Microsoft or Apple.

      Why does someone who presumably is not an employee of Apple feel so strongly about others who badmouth Apple or its products? That's what is difficult for me to understand.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    63. Re:OMG big brother... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So you are of the opinion that it is ok to have a database; whose existence appears to be a mystery to about 90% of the public; that keeps detailed location data for an indefinite period of time (ref: years); that is unencrypted; that can be accessed not only by thieves, but Law Enforcement as well; that can be used to provide a detailed time-line map of where you have been; is not a big deal?

      If being understood by the public was a requirement to being legal, then Puerto Rico would be a state and Hawaii wouldn't be. Your cache on your computer can, based on your cache settings, hang around for years and be accessible to thieves and Law Enforcement (not sure why you capitalize that, but if you did, I'd better too, else Law Enforcement may come after me). People are happy with their cache being available with similar settings in a "database" (that I'd call a file system, but it's still a database) that is a mystery to about 90% of the public. So why do you assert that something almost the same on a phone now is so vastly different than what's been on computers for 20 years?

    64. Re:OMG big brother... by JWW · · Score: 2

      It would be fun to see Apple explain this at the congressional hearings they're going to inevitably be dragged into.

      Oh, congress, thank you for protecting my rights from BIG BAD APPLE!!

      Wait, you've given a mandate to the cellular companies to collect this same data and hand it over to law enforcement whenever they ask.

      What exactly are you upset at Apple about again?

    65. Re:OMG big brother... by Calibax · · Score: 2

      I'm not a zealot - I actually purchased a Xoom. I do have to agree with the grandfather post that the anti-Apple crowd are just over the top. Far worse than the Anti-Microsoft crowd ever was.

      For example, someone points out that Google also stores the same data, apparently for the same reason. The immediate reaction isn't "Oh, maybe there's a valid reason" it's "Just because Google does it, doesn't make Apple anything other than a bunch of liars who are stealing my positional data".

      The anti-Apple crowd just aren't interested in facts or a reasoned debate. "If you're not on our side you're an Apple zealot" appears to be a common opinion.

      As the parent post demonstrates well, the anti-Apple crowd have no trouble attacking anyone who they feel is not supporting them. No facts needed, just an ad hominem attack combined with name calling.

    66. Re:OMG big brother... by JWW · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't you be upset if you found out that you were carrying around a location logger for the last year?

      Nope.

      I honestly can't think of a time in the last year where I'd be really concerned about someone knowing where I was.

      Also, I point to facebook and foursquare as an example that others aren't very concerned either.
      I never post my location to foursquare or facebook but millions of people do.

      Also, we're talking about a local cache here, not a public site where someone can search a time and date and see where I've been.

      It comes down to this. In order to do any of the nefarious things mentioned in all the sensationalist media coverage of this, I have to lose physical security over my device. And as anyone well versed in security knows, if you lose physical security, you don't have any security.

      Yes, yes, it will probably be prudent for Apple to cut back the amount of data cached, and possibly encrypt it on the phone (however even with the data encrypted on the phone, you've already lost physical control of the device in most scenarios, so decryption is just a matter of time anyway).

      I forsee an opt-in for location caching coming in the next iOS update and I plan on saying, "ok, track my location".

    67. Re:OMG big brother... by MimeticLie · · Score: 1

      I recall reading in the comments on that last article that the software had a "fudge factor" built in so that people couldn't use it for stalking. You would have had to edit the source yourself to get an exact picture of what data it was accumulating.

    68. Re:OMG big brother... by mpaque · · Score: 1

      ...Big Deal

      So you are of the opinion that it is ok to have a database; whose existence appears to be a mystery to about 90% of the public; that keeps detailed location data for an indefinite period of time (ref: years); that is unencrypted; that can be accessed not only by thieves, but Law Enforcement as well; that can be used to provide a detailed time-line map of where you have been; is not a big deal?

      Ah, you should probably be aware that the phone company does this already for all cell phones. The database can be queries by any 'authenticated agent', a person with an account and password, such as a law enforcement officer. Social engineering works well, too. The US Justice Department classifies this information as 'routine business documents', not requiring a warrant.

      If you don't want your location history known to others. do not carry a cell phone.

    69. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billanalysis/Senate/htm/2011-SFA-4214-S.htm is an analysis of the bill the AC is most likely referring to. Oh and as a note it took less time to find it than type [citation needed].

      -- Require the State Treasurer to declare the local government in receivership and appoint an emergency manager, upon confirmation of a financial emergency.
      -- Authorize the emergency manager for a municipal government to disincorporate or dissolve the municipal government, and recommend consolidation with another municipal government.

    70. Re:OMG big brother... by pmontra · · Score: 1
      I think it's too early to judge what Apple is doing but

      1. To help prevent DROPPED CALLS, by keeping a running database of nearby CELL TOWERS.

      the ancient pre-millenium GSM phone I had years ago was one of those old voice-and-sms-only little things but it didn't drop calls. I don't have any evidence supporting my claim but I bet that it didn't store any cell tower location in any local database. How can a cell towers database make better something that was already working? (genuine question, no sarcasm intended).

    71. Re:OMG big brother... by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but the problem is that apple is not tracking anybody, its that apple is not tracking anybody....yet. Also, there is the issue of why the phone is doing this in the first place. Why spend the time programming this 'feature' into a phone unless its going to be used for something. Just because apple isnt doing anything evil with this data does not mean they could not later, or someone else could make a trojan to gather this data now that its widely known.

      This was voted up as "insightful". God, I hate these morons.

      For half a point of Slashdot credentials each: Come up with at least two valid reasons why some Apple developer created this database.
      For another half point of Slashdot credentials: Explain why Apple has no need to store this data on a phone in order to get the data.
      For another half point: Explain why the iPhone app store gives Apple the ability to withdraw apps from your phone (which so far has never been used).

    72. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      translation - "leave apple alone" (in a loud chris cocker voice)

      big kid on the block eh - when it comes to computers your market share is dropping according to the stats...

      it's only the fancy mp3 jukeboxes that have allowed jobs to build apples' pile o' cash. that and the fact that his customers are so utterly ignorant when it comes to technology that you can practically sell them anything, as long as the marketing is top notch.

    73. Re:OMG big brother... by mr1911 · · Score: 1

      isn't it just guesswork to say "You visited thus and so" in a congested urban location?

      The police will not guess. In an investigation the question of why your phone data is they way it is will be asked numerous times in multiple ways. Any answer you give that is not exactly like your other answers to the same question will be held up as proof that you were inconsistent and dishonest with the investigators.

      If your phone doesn't track your location, that is one less pool of data you do not have to defend yourself against.

      --
      This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
      Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
    74. Re:OMG big brother... by smelch · · Score: 1
      Lengthy response here, but I want to say up front that I understand its easy to call me a racist after reading this. I think its a damned shame that people buy the argument, but I know I have nothing against other races. Try to not box me in as a racist as you read these responses.

      Deciding when a woman can have birth control, thats not sexist, men know better than women.

      That's not the argument. The argument is when does life begin. You can frame it that way if you would like, but calling abortion birth control is a little bit heinous. If he is talking about Plan B that's even still not sexist, its just his opinion on when a person becomes a person. Projecting that belief as sexism is complete bullshit as the line of when a person becomes a person is obviously a gradient. Where do you place it? When the toes leave the vagina walls? Oh, shit, maybe that problem isn't so cut and dry and calling anybody that disagrees with you sexist is complete bullshit.

      Calling Martin Luther King as a "pro-communist philanderer" and to Martin Luther King Day as "hate Whitey day."

      No, that isn't racist. Martin Luther King is not exempt from any criticism just because he did some good things. If its true its true, if its not he's wrong and possibly said it only because he is racist, but that statement is not racist by itself. You have yet to establish that Ron Paul thinks whites are superior or black are inferior to any other race. Replace Martin Luther King with Bill Clinton and you tell me if it's still racist. As for the second part, "hate Whitey day", perhaps it does feel that way to whites sometimes, that doesn't mean he is a racist, that just means he thinks on Martin Luther King day white people get a lot of criticism. Which I would guess is true and in school we teach a lot of stuff that makes white kids feel guilty leading up to MLK day. You don't have to agree with that, but expressing that sentiment does not make him a racist and in no way even insults minorities.

      Saying the Los Angeles riots of 1992 only stopped when it came time for "blacks to pick up their welfare checks".

      Percentage of blacks on welfare in LA in 1992, do you know it? Do you think maybe it did have something to do with it? Does me thinking that it might have make me racist or make me analytical? If you think racist then I think race is too important to you.

      Is homophobia sexism now? If so, you got me there. Ron Paul is probably against homosexuality, but I know he at least supports their right to be gay even if he would rather them do it in private or not at all. To be honest, I think we could all do with keeping our sex lives a little more private. I would of course never propose a law to that effect, and I doubt Ron Paul would either.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    75. Re:OMG big brother... by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Hmm... do I get that right that at some level of government, they are drawing the conclusion that militia members are all potential domestic terrorists and should be treated as suspected terrorists?

      Who was it again that wrested control of the USA away from England? It sure wasn't the professional armed forces.

      Who was it that was given protection in the constitution just in case the government became too authoritarian and overreaching?

      Who is it that makes the USA somewhat unique in the modernized world, providing an armed force in defense of the country that is not directly controlled by the government?

      Who is it that is no longer allowed to carry the same weapons as the government-funded forces?

      I'm not even American, but I sure can see a bit of an issue/conflict of interest here....

    76. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to the developer, the binary linked in the earlier article was written to not show the exact data, only a randomized region.

      Go read the actual article.

    77. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't "insightful", it is inciteful.

      Nice homonym usage.

    78. Re:OMG big brother... by sessamoid · · Score: 2

      Or to not use a cell phone that does that. but that's made difficult when it's done without telling you...

      Or don't bring a cell device that you can be tracked by to such meetings if you wear tin foil hats all day. All cell devices track you.

      --
      "No, no, no. Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."
    79. Re:OMG big brother... by Vaphell · · Score: 1

      have you read it?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul

      Opposed to Civil Rights Act of 1964.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Voting_Rights_Act
      He felt the federal interference mandated by the bill was costly and unjustified because the situation for minorities voting is much different than when the bill was passed 40 years ago.
      The bill also mandated bilingual voting ballots upon request, and in a letter opposing the bill for this reason, 80 members of Congress including Paul objected to the costly implications of requiring bilingual ballots. In one example cited in the letter, the members detailed how Los Angeles spent $2.1 million for the 2004 election to provide ballots in seven different languages and more than 2,000 translators, although one of the requirements of gaining United States citizenship is ability to read in English, and another California district spent $30,000 on translating ballots per election despite receiving only one request for Spanish documents in 16 years.

      Opposed to Civil Rights Act of 1964.

      http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul188.html
      The Civil Rights Act of 1964 gave the federal government unprecedented power over the hiring, employee relations, and customer service practices of every business in the country. The result was a massive violation of the rights of private property and contract, which are the bedrocks of free society. The federal government has no legitimate authority to infringe on the rights of private property owners to use their property as they please and to form (or not form) contracts with terms mutually agreeable to all parties. The rights of all private property owners, even those whose actions decent people find abhorrent, must be respected if we are to maintain a free society.
      The Civil Rights Act of 1964 not only violated the Constitution and reduced individual liberty; it also failed to achieve its stated goals of promoting racial harmony and a color-blind society. Federal bureaucrats and judges cannot read minds to see if actions are motivated by racism. Therefore, the only way the federal government could ensure an employer was not violating the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was to ensure that the racial composition of a business's workforce matched the racial composition of a bureaucrat or judge's defined body of potential employees. Thus, bureaucrats began forcing employers to hire by racial quota. Racial quotas have not contributed to racial harmony or advanced the goal of a color-blind society. Instead, these quotas encouraged racial balkanization, and fostered racial strife.

      Paul introduced the Sanctity of Life Act of 2005, a bill that would have defined human life to begin at conception, and removed challenges to prohibitions on abortion from federal court jurisdiction.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Abortion-related_legislation
      Paul calls himself "strongly pro-life" and "an unshakable foe of abortion." However, he believes regulation of medical decisions about maternal or fetal health is "best handled at the state level." He believes that, for the most part, states should retain jurisdiction, in accordance with the U.S. Constitution.

      so the man is a hardcore follower of the constitution (a truly rare trait these days) and a supporter of strong property rights - how uncool...

    80. Re:OMG big brother... by Vaphell · · Score: 1

      damn, i messed up a bit. 1st point is mislabeled Voting Rights Act, obviously it should be not Civil Rights Act

    81. Re:OMG big brother... by MBaldelli · · Score: 1

      No, it is not enough to track you with any real precision. I looked at my own data using the binary that was linked in the earlier article about this - There appears to be very little certainty, other than showing a "general region" of where you were.

      You know, Sprint used to do something of the sort with this back in the day when CDMA was first/second generation. Working at a Sprint PCS store, when a customer was having problems with connectivity, we would take their phone to the back area and update the CDMA tower table in them. Presto, it worked again. If not then it might be something wrong with the phone and further testing would be required.

      But the thing is, it's not the same. The difference is that this information is being accrued in a database on an iPhone is not necessarily known to the owner, as the EULA has it buried in so much legalese that it takes a lawyer to find it. Further it's attaching latitude and longitudinal information to the tower location that is completely unnecessary to such a cached database. After all -- cellphone towers have unique IDs. Some of them contain the geographical information in it's ID, most though are obscure and are contained within databases of the cell phone providers that put them up in the first place. And the cell phone -- in this case the iPhone -- have positively no need for such cached geographical information.

      Which raises the question, why does a database contain Cellphone Tower IDs with geographical locational information? It's going to be utilized for some reason. And those reasons are chilling even to the casual mind.

      Even that's fuzzy, because there are points showing up which are absolutely *not* in any location I've visited in recent memory, and points which I haven't come within hundreds of miles of in years

      Do you remember all the routes you take? Can you remember having to take detours? Lord knows I do... But that's only because I'm on a bike, and it means I'm going to be pedaling more than normal. People in automobiles on the other hand don't. They only seem to complain when it's going to cost more to fill their tank of gas; not because they had to go 10 - 20 miles out of their way when going from point A to B.

      --
      "The truth points to itself." - Kosh, Babylon5
    82. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe the people you should be worried about are NOT the police!!! I don't want anybody who has 1.5 minutes of my time to have detailed access to everything in my life.

    83. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dont want cops looking in my trunk. The solution is to CLOSE IT. And to demand to see a warrant if he asks to look inside.

      An unencrypted file is "plain sight". Like an open trunk. It does not matter if anything illegal is in the trunk.

    84. Re:OMG big brother... by guspasho · · Score: 1

      And 150 degrees is not that much hotter than a sauna, even if you are a frog in a pot.

    85. Re:OMG big brother... by cheeks5965 · · Score: 0

      My $7 dialup plan provides more data (>15 GB) than $40 verizon wireless (5 GB). Pathetic.

      How do you figure this? Let's OM it: 56 kbps (that's dialup, right?) ~ 8 kbytes per second ~690 mbytes per day. Oh I see what you did there. If you maxxed out your dialup connection for every second of the month you could download ~15gbytes. I see your point, I guess... but perhaps there's no need for caps on dialup connections because:

      * even if one could download 15GB monthly the average usage is probably much less than 1GB

      * dialup goes over the phone network which is not resource constrained, as opposed to the wireless network in which bandwidth is precious.

      So, in short, get off your high horse, I guess? recognize that things happen for a reason, not just to screw you over?

      Also, not to make you feel bad, but my $30 ATT ipad plan gets unlimited wireless for $30. Of course, this is in SF, so the speeds are equivalent to dialup...

      --
      -- Flame me and I will happily flame you back. Bring it!
    86. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 1

      Which raises the question, why does a database contain Cellphone Tower IDs with geographical locational information? It's going to be utilized for some reason. And those reasons are chilling even to the casual mind.

      Let's consider that question for a second. Why would they need it? I can think of performance reasons why caching the tower coordinates would be useful. The iPhone knows it's connected to tower ID "ABC", and also within range of towers DEF and MNO; Now, if it has to go out and look up the coordinates of those towers in some phone company database over the data connection, that could take some time, and be wholly dependent on signal strength, other traffic on the network at the time, etc. etc. Then, once it gets the location of that info, it needs to fire that back to the mapping software, plot the points, download map data around those points... you could be looking at a lot of latency. If you're in an area with cached tower locations, then the phone can start downloading map data immediately, without the intermediate step of "look up towers X, Y, Z, then send those coordinates to the map software, and start downloading data around them." I don't find that thought particularly chilling, though I do concede that there is a *potential* for abuse. At this point, asking questions about what the data is used for, and who has access to it, is reasonable. Freaking out and yelling about how Apple is "tracking our every movement" is not.

      Do you remember all the routes you take? Can you remember having to take detours?

      I know that the route between my home outside of Boston and a place up in mid-NH where I recently visited comes nowhere near Portland, Maine; At no point during the weekend was I less than 60 miles from Portland, and yet my iPhone log shows me spending quite a bit of time in and around downtown Portland during that weekend.

      Likewise, my data from a few days ago, where I was at home - quite literally all day long, shows me having "appeared" at numerous places within a ~75 mile radius of where I live - and literally, 2 of the points are over 100 miles apart, straight-line distance. So either my phone is taking fabulous day-long vacations without me, or the iPhone "tracking database" is wildly inaccurate as a method for determining exactly where I've been, and what my movements are.

    87. Re:OMG big brother... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's pretty clear MY PHONE was traveling along a highway. Prove I was in possession of my phone at that time then get back to me.

    88. Re:OMG big brother... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Prosecution: "So I see here Mr. Americano, that in the past year, you've been located roughly within 70-100 miles of your home. Can you explain that to the jury?"

    89. Re:OMG big brother... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      My MacBook Pros sure are an expensive mp3 jukebox...

    90. Re:OMG big brother... by Altus · · Score: 1

      How exactly is an officer standing next to your car going to read this data?

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    91. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 1

      It's my understanding that saunas are generally operated between 70 and 100 degrees C. I'd say that 150C is quite a bit hotter than a sauna, even if you're a lobster in a chafing dish.

    92. Re:OMG big brother... by swb · · Score: 1

      Can that device just be connected to an iPhone and actually read the whole filesystem? How does data protection affect access to presumably encrypted data like mail stores, etc?

      I keep reading mixed things with nothing terribly definitive.

    93. Re:OMG big brother... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      No, it's people like you who draw conclusions that aren't there to be drawn. Thanks for proving his point.

      Where in fact did he exhibit symptoms of cult-like behavior when he said he grows tired of people complaining about the big non-issue of the day because it's Apple/Google/MS, et. al?

      Oh, that's right, you are projecting your insecurity and think just because he has nothing damning to say about this Apple story he must be a kool-aide drinker, when indeed, there probably isn't much to this story after all.

    94. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ok, here's a big hint

        - that "pro" label on your computers doesn't really mean that they're not jumped up toys for clueless idiots who suffer from that not uncommon combination of technical ineptitude and smug elitism.

      of course you've bought into your brand so completely that self-deception is easier than critical thinking - but i just wish that for one moment you could realize how incredibly pathetic it appears to others.

    95. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 1

      Think of how easy all those cold cases will be to solve now. Tonight on Law & Order:

      DA: "So, you ADMIT that you were within 100 miles of the place where a crime was committed, on the day a crime was committed?"
      Defendant: "Yes, I suppose I was."
      DA: "And did YOU rape and murder the deceased? After all, we can place you within 100 miles of the crime at some point on the night it was committed!"
      Defendant: "No, being somewhere in the general area of the state where a crime was committed doesn't mean that I committed it."
      DA: "I beg to differ, sir. I beg to differ. Your Honor, I move that we skip the rest of the trial altogether, and simply remand the defendant to Guantanamo Bay."
      Judge: "Sustained. Bailiff, take the defendant into custody."

      TNT: We Know Drama.

    96. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to the new Verizon TOS, "flaming" is not permitted, and can result in the cancellation of your service. That's an awful lot of offline /. users.

    97. Re:OMG big brother... by bugs2squash · · Score: 2

      Sucks, I know (and agree); but no one forces you to use a cellphone.

      Nor is anyone forced to travel by air, or to use a computer, or a library or to walk around downtown...

      But I sure am getting sick of being barred from any modern human activity if I should want to go about my business without enhanced levels of surveillance.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    98. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You keep on repeating Google does the same. NO THEY DO NOT. Read and understand who does what, and how and what can happen to that 'data'. Steve has to finally release his whole faggot army from his bedroom, it seems.

    99. Re:OMG big brother... by DocHoncho · · Score: 1

      What difference does it make anyhow? Most iPhone users are going to be syncing to their Macs, and we all know Macs are un-hackable. The poor slobs who are using Windows deserve whatever happens to them.

      --
      Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
    100. Re:OMG big brother... by guspasho · · Score: 1

      And you call yourself Americano?

    101. Re:OMG big brother... by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 1

      Read the patent and then you'll know. Apple considers it a feature that would allow you a temporal overview of where you were and when, which I for one would find a cool feature for people who are hiking or other long-distance journeys where such data could be interesting and useful. The puzzling question is why they're using the relatively unreliable cell phone tower triangulation rather than the perfectly good GPS data.

      Apple's only mistake was in not encrypting this, and even that's debatable, as you need physical access and quite a bit of technical savvy to access it, at which point you already have the physical device in your hands and all the other data it includes (photos, emails, addresses, etc., which nobody else expects to be encrypted, either). Every cell phone company on the planet also collects this data as a matter of course, and they are more than happy to hand it over to the authorities in exchange for a subpoena and/or a small fee. This is a whole lotta fuss from the tin-foil hat department over something relatively obscure and non-exploitable (again, you have to have the physical device before you can actually do something about it, and that particular security flaw covers every computer in existence).

      --
      "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
    102. Re:OMG big brother... by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      by the hordes of people who seem to think that Apple is somehow more powerful in the world of computing than Microsoft

      It was a little less than a year ago when Apple fanboys were busily proclaiming that Apply had overtaken MS in market cap

      or that they are "more evil" than MS has ever been

      They've got different target markets. MS is evil in its business dealings, Apple specializes in anti-consumer evilness.

      about half of them swear they've never used a mac or iDevice in their lives yet they are experts on the subject...

      Because they generally aren't complaining about specific implementation issues (other than laughing at antenna issues) so much as the company's attitude and mindset, which you don't need to own a device to know about.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    103. Re:OMG big brother... by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      the vast majority of comments I've seen so far have been along the lines of "APPLE SI TEH EVül!!1 STAEV JOBS IS SUING IS SATTEILT IN ORBIT TO TARKC UR POSISHION!!! ANY1 STIL USING CRAPPLE IPHONIE IS AN IDIOTS OR A FAGET 4 STAVE JOBS CAWK!!11one"

      I'd say that the vast majority of comments have been mature and legibly typed, albeit with varying degrees of FUD. The only instance I see that is similar to the example above is, well, the example above.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    104. Re:OMG big brother... by gutnor · · Score: 1

      Why does someone who presumably is not an employee of Apple feel so strongly about others who badmouth Apple or its products? That's what is difficult for me to understand.

      Actually quite the opposite: why would an Apple employee cares about an insignificant (relatively to Apple target demographic) group of people. The only reasonable reason to care at all about what people on slashdot say is if you think/feel you belong. (I count rabid fanboyism for whatever "cause" in the unreasonable category) . When you think you belong, you start to get tired when the other member of the community start critisising/defending X on a continuous basis with the same empty/idiotic argumentation.

      In any case with he high level of anti and pro Apple present, there would be nothing that an Apple PR could really do - I mean sometimes you think that most the post have been written by both Jobs and Ballmer kids.

    105. Re:OMG big brother... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      BTW, in case you didn't know, every CELL CARRIER keeps this same information for EVERY cell phone, by LAW, in perpetuity

      Yes I do know that. The cop pulling you over for speeding does *not* have access to that information and needs a damn warrant to get it. (not getting into whether the warrant thing is even true anymore (thanks GWB!).

      Apple isn't using this information. The phone is.

      Really? You don't see this data being misused in *any* way going forward? That its stored in plain text on PCs when you sync? I'm not worried (much) about Apple using this data, I'm worried about other people using this data that Apple has so conveniently collected for them on *my* phone.

      Considering that the data appears to be a REALLY low-resolution version of where you MIGHT have been (it seems to only be storing the location of CELL TOWERS), I really don't worry about this info.

    106. Re:OMG big brother... by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      That's irrelevant since being tracked isn't the issue. The issue is having some data available to a particular type of retrieval.

    107. Re:OMG big brother... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      I think it's too early to judge what Apple is doing but

      1. To help prevent DROPPED CALLS, by keeping a running database of nearby CELL TOWERS.

      the ancient pre-millenium GSM phone I had years ago was one of those old voice-and-sms-only little things but it didn't drop calls. I don't have any evidence supporting my claim but I bet that it didn't store any cell tower location in any local database. How can a cell towers database make better something that was already working? (genuine question, no sarcasm intended).

      How do you know that it didn't store a temporary database of nearby cell towers in RAM or in Flash?

      Seriously, how do you think that seamless hand-offs happen?

      The only difference here is that Apple used their database API to store the locations, rather than some array in RAM.

      I'm as paranoid as the next person; but there seriously is NOTHING to see here. Honest.

    108. Re:OMG big brother... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      Such fine details are going to be dealt with by lawyers. *After* you are arrested. IANAL, but me thinks it's pretty standard logic that if a person's cell phone was tracked, likely it was that person who was in possession. It's not 'proof' but if it corroborates a suspicion, you will be detained.

      There's a chasm of difference between proving in court and the standards an enforcement officer has to meet to decide it's reasonable to detain you.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    109. Re:OMG big brother... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      isn't it just guesswork to say "You visited thus and so" in a congested urban location?

      The police will not guess. In an investigation the question of why your phone data is they way it is will be asked numerous times in multiple ways. Any answer you give that is not exactly like your other answers to the same question will be held up as proof that you were inconsistent and dishonest with the investigators. If your phone doesn't track your location, that is one less pool of data you do not have to defend yourself against.

      It DOESN'T track YOUR location; as you have conveniently ignored, everyone who has looked at the database confirms that it is keeping a database of recent CELL TOWERS. As one poster pointed out, one that was in his database was 75 miles away.

      But, don't let FACTS stop the Apple Hate!

    110. Re:OMG big brother... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      using this perhaps?

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    111. Re:OMG big brother... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Sucks, I know (and agree); but no one forces you to use a cellphone.

      Nor is anyone forced to travel by air, or to use a computer, or a library or to walk around downtown...

      But I sure am getting sick of being barred from any modern human activity if I should want to go about my business without enhanced levels of surveillance.

      But, in this PARTICULAR case, it really IS a tempest in a teapot.

      As you have no doubt read by now, all of the people who have actually LOOKED at the database confirm that ALL that is being stored is a database of CELL TOWER locations; NOT YOUR LOCATION.

      But don't let the FACTS outweigh or mitigate your Apple Hate.

    112. Re:OMG big brother... by macslas'hole · · Score: 1

      I've looked at and modified the software in question. It bins the records in space and in time. The bins are 1/100 degree (0.6 nm, ~1.1 km, ~0.7 mi) on a side and one week in duration. The app's UI is a browser control. The binned data is submitted to a web server and the browser control renders the response. I don't believe the "fudge factor" has anything to do with stalking, but is about not throwing too many data points at that server. I have looked at the actual data in sqlite. My observations agree completely with the GP.

      --
      Life's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
    113. Re:OMG big brother... by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      from the people who have actually 'studied' this issue:

      http://radar.oreilly.com/2011/04/apple-location-tracking.html
      "Our best guess is that the location is determined by cell-tower triangulation, and the timing of the recording is erratic, with a widely varying frequency of updates that may be triggered by traveling between cells or activity on the phone itself."

      It's not the tower locations, and is probably related to Assisted GPS used on iPhones

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    114. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although I don't currently own an iDevice myself, most of the people I associate with do. And I can say with certainty that I've never heard a single one of them complain about anything other than dropped calls on AT&T (something my Pre is wonderful at as well). In fact, it's my non-Apple using friends, associates and colleagues who are often the most critical of the platform. I think this same mindset is reflected in online forums as well.

      The point being, those who have the most issues with the iPhone 4 death grip, the ever-popular "buggy iTunes" and Apple's locked-in, walled garden don't even use the platform. And while I won't discount their opinions, I do tend to place more value in the opinions of those who actually use the platform.

    115. Re:OMG big brother... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Hush now, don't ruin a good anti-Apple flamefest. You're not giving the haters

      As per my sig,

      "Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument."

      I can't help but be slightly baffled by the hordes of people who seem to think that Apple is somehow more powerful in the world of computing than Microsoft or that they are "more evil" than MS has ever been.

      Nope, they are easily 20 times more evil then MS, they are just 20 times smaller. Perhaps that is why you are baffled.

      Apple like lock-in far more then MS. Apple feel the need to control every aspect of the product. Apple dictate you must buy their hardware, Apple dictate you must distribute applications by their distribution channel, Apple dictate what browser you are permitted to use, Apple dictate that flash is not permitted regardless of if you want it or not. MS has done nothing of the sort. They never even tried to cripple Steam when GFWL was floundering, MySQL runs fine on Windows Server.

      I'm no fan of MS but they aren't intrinsically evil, MS are greedy and evil is merely a side effect. If saving kittens was highly profitable, MS would be the foremost kitten recovery service in the world. All Microsoft wants is your wallet, once you've paid your yearly Danegeld MS will leave you be until next year. Apple on the other hand want your wallet, mind, body and soul. Complete control no matter how much you pay them.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    116. Re:OMG big brother... by technomom · · Score: 1

      Ask the guy who got arrested recently because someone sat outside his house with a Pringles can-boosted wifi antenna and downloaded gigabytes of child porn through his unsecured home network. Ask him if he cares whether or not he is convicted of the crime or if his life was made miserable just by being accused and held for the crime based on circumstantial proximity based electronic evidence. Ask him how laughable that was.

    117. Re:OMG big brother... by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      Now you're just spreading FUD.

      Apple like lock-in far more then MS.

      Have you ever visited a company that's running all-MS software on the servers and desktops? Ever seen one of these companies try to switch away from MS?

      Apple feel the need to control every aspect of the product.

      Which product?

      Apple dictate you must buy their hardware

      Well, they do sell a system comprised of both hardware and software but it's not like you're forced to buy their solution, you can just as easily use someone else's software and hardware.

      Apple dictate you must distribute applications by their distribution channel, Apple dictate what browser you are permitted to use, Apple dictate that flash is not permitted regardless of if you want it or not. MS has done nothing of the sort. They never even tried to cripple Steam when GFWL was floundering, MySQL runs fine on Windows Server.

      I'm putting these together just to show how you're switching back and forth. Here you are comparing desktop/server versions of MS Windows to iOS (the mobile device OS from Apple).

      Also, Apple and MS are both after your money, no surprise there. The difference is in business model, the MS model has long been to control the entire ecosystem by becoming the alpha predator, Apple's strategy is to dominate "their" niche completely.

      The whole "mind, body and soul" thing you're going about sounds more like paranoia (or you confusing a handful of rabid Apple fanboys with Apple, the company).

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    118. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 1

      Oh NOES, won't somebody think of the chilluns?!

      In this case, you would be arguing that they could convict him of downloading child porn solely because he happens to own a router that sits within 100 miles of where the child porn was downloaded. If you're truly suggesting that that's what happened, you're going to need to provide a lot of more of a citation than "ask that guy, you know, the one who got arrested recently."

    119. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Why does someone who presumably is not an employee of Apple feel so strongly about others who badmouth Apple or its products?"

      Actually most of the employees probably don't care all that much. It's just a job.

      But the people who own shares in Apple... now there's a group who will care. My guess is he has a few shares and gets all concerned when he feels that bad-mouthing might lose him a few bucks.

    120. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, /. or FF logged me out and I discovered it only when I clicked Preview. I don't want to login, be sent back to the home page, look for your message again and paste the answer (this is a very nasty /. bug) so I'm doing it as AC but I'm pmontra.

      How do you know that it didn't store a temporary database of nearby cell towers in RAM or in Flash?

      Seriously, how do you think that seamless hand-offs happen?

      The only difference here is that Apple used their database API to store the locations, rather than some array in RAM.

      I confess that I don't know how cell hand over happens. Let's say that knowing the position of a cell tower is important for the algorithm (maybe sensing the transmission power is a better hint for choosing the right tower to connect to but, as I said, I'm ignorant). Let's say that those locations are stored in RAM: there is no way somebody can extract them from there. Let's say they are in Flash storage, forever (but given the size of the device I think it would be a cache of the last N towers): again it's very difficult to extract them. In the case of the iPhone those data are in plain sight in any PC/Mac used for backing up the phone. That's a big difference and that's bad security.

      And note that Apple still didn't explain why they are storing that information on the phone. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with calls hand over. That's why my very first line was "I think it's too early to judge what Apple is doing".

    121. Re:OMG big brother... by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      The only allegation is that they COULD do it because they have a piece of equipment that could do it.

      Why would they spend money on a piece of equipment if they do not intend to ever use it?

    122. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, /. or FF logged me out and I discovered it only when I clicked Preview. I don't want to login, be sent back to the home page, look for your message again and paste the answer (this is a very nasty /. bug) so I'm doing it as AC but I'm pmontra.

      I'm with ya on that one! (and for similar reasons why you are posting as AC; so am I; but I am macs4all...

      I don't know if this happens in FF, but on Safari on OS X, when I come from my email app (gmail) to reply to someone like you that has replied to a comment I made, not only will /. NOT let me log in on the "reply" page; but, even MORE annoyingly, everytime I click in the "Comment" box to start my reply, it JUMPS to the top of whatever mini-thread it has generated. ONLY after I click and bang on the keyboard a few times, or cursor-down to the comment box (!!!) will it not yank control out from under me!

      For a "geek" site, /. has some of the world's most f-ed up forum code!

      But anyway, the thing is, the data is simply too coarse to be useful to anything BUT the phone. It isn't even fine-grained enough to be useful for marketing purposes. So, I really do believe that this comes down to an iOS OS dev. using the tools at his disposal (Database API) to keep track of some stuff that a phone with less on its mind (dumbphone) would keep in RAM. Remember, RAM in a smartphone is a precious commodity; Flash, notsomuch.

      CAPTCHA: Packets

    123. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unhackable? I really hope you're kidding.

    124. Re:OMG big brother... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      The problems comes when you have . . . . stupid government. THAT is the problem we should be concerned about. The iPhone location data should definitely be temporary instead of cumulative, and it should be encrypted and unaccessible by any other app, but stupid government is a far bigger issue. Stupid government means we have Michigan scumbags ready to steal phone data, it means we have retards in Washington that demand hearings about a topic they were informed of almost a year ago.

    125. Re:OMG big brother... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Well, let's examine your post. First, Apple market share is growing. And its year over year growth has outpaced the PC industry for several years now. Apple is exploding compared to the PC market right now.

      iPods definitely did help Apple, but they are simply a byproduct of Apple's way of doing business. iPod, iPhone, iPad, MBP, etc. Build great products and the customers should like them. I know this hurts your attempt to be cool with your Apple bashing, but Apple is doing well financially because Apple is building products that people want. Marketing may get some early sales, but it won't let you sustain sales of a crappy product. Apple is taking off because Apple is getting it right. About the only ignorance I see in all this is your misinformed opinion.

    126. Re:OMG big brother... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      ok, here's a big hint

      - your inability to understand what people like about Apple products doesn't exactly put you at the top of the intellectual gene pool. Your attempt to portray "others" as looking down on Apple customers shows your ignorance and bias. While there are lot of people who don't like or want Apple products, there are also others who DO. And, believe it or not Einstein, they arent' clueless. They see there is more to a product than spec lists and a count of how many USB ports a device has.

      Look, if you can't understand something then at least do the world a favor and shut up about your ignorance. I just wish that for one moment you could realize how incredibly pathetic it appears to others as you parade your stupidity flag up and down the street.

    127. Re:OMG big brother... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstand his post. Someone who researched a device and decided it didn't fit their needs is completely different than the blind hatred exhibited by status seeking pseudo intellectual tech geeks that seem to come out of the woodwork when the name Apple is mentioned. I think that is his complaint and it does have merit.

    128. Re:OMG big brother... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Maybe he's not an Apple zealot, but rather someone who sees all the anti-Apple hysteria as a bit ridiculous. Pointing that out doesn't make him a zealot. Stereotypical behavior does not mean it is inaccurate. Most stereotypes have more than a grain of truth to them, which is why they originated in the first place. His commentary on the Apple haters, whether he is a zealot or not, is right on the mark. It's become a bit pathetic to see how predictable the comments are from those gnash their teeth at the mere mention of anything Apple.

      Your little vulgarity at the end speaks volumes to what camp you belong in.

    129. Re:OMG big brother... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      You're right, Google does not do the same. Apple keeps the tracking file on the phone, Google transmits it up to the Don't be Evil Googleplex several times an hour. It appears that Google could easily be WORSE.

    130. Re:OMG big brother... by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "The anti-Apple crowd just aren't interested in facts or a reasoned debate"

      - No truer words were ever spoken. The often portrayed opinion was the only reason people bought Apple was the look "cool". I think it's become fashionable to try and look "cool" by bashing Apple now. It seems we have a lot of status seeking folks that want to be with the "in crowd" by looking down on anyone who likes Apple products.

    131. Re:OMG big brother... by causality · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstand his post. Someone who researched a device and decided it didn't fit their needs is completely different than the blind hatred exhibited by status seeking pseudo intellectual tech geeks that seem to come out of the woodwork when the name Apple is mentioned. I think that is his complaint and it does have merit.

      I was aware of this but perhaps I did not give it the consideration it deserves. I do understand why you would place emphasis on it. Now that you've caused me to think it over, I believe it deserves more emphasis than I originally gave to it.

      I suppose I would reconcile the two positions thusly: a lot of the "haters" depend on feeling like they are listened to and engaged and taken seriously. They're like trolls this way. Perhaps my post de-emphasized the difference between the "haters" and those with reasonable objection because I unconsciously didn't consider the "haters" worth a moment's thought, so I automatically focused on what remained.

      A more deliberate, conscious rejection of them, a willingness to ignore them if you like, in order to move on to better and more worthy posts, might be just the solution. I don't really see a point in trying to reason with them. People who take a religious stance on a factual matter generally do that because they don't like reason to begin with. You can't reason with someone who doesn't value reason, it just doesn't work. You can show them up before an audience, such as this one, but that tends to just make them more vocal and belligerent. Above all, it tends to make them feel validated that you take them seriously enough to offer opposition.

      I guess that takes us back to my previous question of why anyone feels a need to straighten them out. Let them be religious. It seems so important to them.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    132. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The anti-Apple crowd just aren't interested in facts or a reasoned debate"

      - No truer words were ever spoken. The often portrayed opinion was the only reason people bought Apple was the look "cool". I think it's become fashionable to try and look "cool" by bashing Apple now. It seems we have a lot of status seeking folks that want to be with the "in crowd" by looking down on anyone who likes Apple products.

      The anti-Microsoft people were never interested in facts or reasoned debate either just looking cool for the sake of looking cool. Go figure.

    133. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      penes is the proper form of the plural

    134. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 1

      And you call yourself Americano

      Is this a trick question?

    135. Re:OMG big brother... by guspasho · · Score: 1

      150 degrees *Celsius* in a sauna?

    136. Re:OMG big brother... by Americano · · Score: 1

      I clearly said that 150C was significantly warmer than a sauna... I thought I was pretty clear about that, so I'm not sure why you seem so confused.

    137. Re:OMG big brother... by mr1911 · · Score: 1

      Do you really think "we have proof you were at X location" is really any different than "we have proof you were in the vicinity of X location" makes any difference when you are forced to defend yourself against data that shouldn't be stored in the first place?

      --
      This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
      Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
    138. Re:OMG big brother... by DocHoncho · · Score: 1

      Duh. Everyone knows Macs are first in Pwn to Own.... just trying to add a little levity to a discussion that is growing increasingly shrill.

      --
      Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
    139. Re:OMG big brother... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really think "we have proof you were at X location" is really any different than "we have proof you were in the vicinity of X location" makes any difference when you are forced to defend yourself against data that shouldn't be stored in the first place?

      Posting as AC because I'm sick and tired of /. web monkeys not being able to write frickin' forum code:

      Depends on whether you have a crappy attorney or a good one.

      So, you're postulating that a smartphone OS requires no data to carry out its functions as a cellphone?

      If so, enjoy your dropped calls every time you move from cell to cell.

    140. Re:OMG big brother... by mr1911 · · Score: 1

      So, you are postulating that a phone must maintain a database of your location for the past year to function? Then how do all of those non-smart phones work without the location database? Here's a hint for you - a cell phone does not require a database of your past locations to function as a cell phone.

      Seriously, that is the stupidest post I've read in a long time. I would have posted that as an AC too.

      It is OK if you want to drink the Kool-Aid. Just admit that you want to drink the Kool-Aid and be done with it.

      --
      This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
      Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
  5. From running the 1984 ad by Beelzebud · · Score: 5, Funny

    to becoming Big Brother, they've come a long way.

    1. Re:From running the 1984 ad by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 2

      Yes, there was that golden period between when they were reviled for being a "toy" OS and when they were reviled for being too successful.

      That was a good 6 months.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
  6. Re:Been said before, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    by (1706743)?
    Name GET fail.

  7. And in the end by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple gets free advertising.

  8. What a crock by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 0

    Except they aren't tracking anyone. I understand that countries are investigating to protect their citizens, the other two sound like typical litigious americans.

    --
    If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
  9. smoke is there any secret where we are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why one might want to hide from being surveiled, profitsized, unchosen, defunctdead etc... is anyone's guess. after interpreting the genuine native elders leadership initiative sponsored teepeeleaks etchings, one immediately realizes that there's really no where to hide, but the reasoning behind wanting to is sound.

  10. The patent by future+assassin · · Score: 2

    Umm isn't this pretty much what the telcos store anyways already in their own databases? The';ve used this info already on the First 48 hours show.

    Ohh my I just noticed this in the patent write up "A computer-implemented method" Damn how silly of me its different because a computer is now doing it.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    1. Re:The patent by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Umm isn't this pretty much what the telcos store anyways already in their own databases? The';ve used this info already on the First 48 hours show.

      Good catch!

    2. Re:The patent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The big difference is that the government has to request the information from the telcos and have *foundation* for that request. Your telco doesn't sniff what wifi networks you are using, doesn't push advertising to your phone, and is generally restricted in what information that can share with affiliates.

      I read something just other day about this info being uploaded to Apple every 12 hours. I can't confirm this, but it is possible. If they can remove an app from your phone, how hard do you think it is for them to pull the contents of this file?

    3. Re:The patent by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      I read something just other day about this info being uploaded to Apple every 12 hours. I can't confirm this, but it is possible. If they can remove an app from your phone, how hard do you think it is for them to pull the contents of this file?

      False, that's Location Services (which can be turned off.)

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    4. Re:The patent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The telco's need a warrant to release that info, the phone database just gets copied with no judicial oversight. Big difference to me anyway...

    5. Re:The patent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The telco's need a warrant to release that info, the phone database just gets copied with no judicial oversight. Big difference to me anyway...

      Except you are (conveniently) forgetting one thing: The data is nowhere near fine-grained either in location or time buckets to make it useful for any law enforcement purpose.

      And since the Omnibus Communications Act of 1994 (I think that's what it was called), Law Enforcement does NOT need a warrant to get MUCH more fine-grained information, including real-time GPS.

      Welcome to the future: Bend over and spread 'em!

      And Apple had NOTHING to do with THAT!

      CAPTCH: Reform

  11. Letterman: Top Ten Apple Excuses by theodp · · Score: 0

    From the Home Office in Cupertino:
    9."So...you don't want us doing that?"
    7."Who doesn't like to be tracked like a wild animal?"
    6."I just wanted to know where you were 24 hours a day because I love you"
    3."Relax, we were just taking your private information and selling it"
    1."That's nothing -- we also take photos of you in the shower

  12. Point Less? by ags1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't having a cell phone (especially one with apps that can access the GPS location) always track able by someone? Don't get me wrong I don't like the idea of being tracked, but the only way your going to achieve this, is to leave your cell phone at home.

    1. Re:Point Less? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most 'tracking' capabilities in your phone are used with explicit approval from the application, can be disabled, and have utility. And certainly the publication of that data is voluntary.

      This is not that. Though time will tell if Apple is, or will be, slurping this data back to their datacenters. Such is the problem with such a closed platform, who knows wtf is going on unless you hack on it or trust the manufacturer to be honest... which is hard with Apple. They're usually very closed about what they're doing... with anything.

    2. Re:Point Less? by aztektum · · Score: 1

      When I worked at a Sprint store a detective came in with a warrant asking if we could triangulate a phones location. Being the nerdy repair tech at the store, he was passed on to me. I referred him to the local business office where the network engineers were. We couldn't in-store, but I knew the engineers could.

      This was 2-3 years before the iPhone. Tower triangulation may not be as accurate as GPS coords, point is cellphones have always been somewhat trackable.

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    3. Re:Point Less? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Really? So if you turn off location services - which Apple says will prevent logging of location data - it still logs your data? That would, indeed by interesting news.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    4. Re:Point Less? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      gps location is done competely on the phone. the sattellites don't know they're being used by this or that devce, so if the phone doesn't store the data then no it's not trackable.

  13. Re:Been said before, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AHAHAHAHA

  14. Hmmm by riegel · · Score: 1

    Tracking the locations of cell towers != tracking a user

    --
    http://p8ste.com - Web based Clipboard
    1. Re:Hmmm by j-turkey · · Score: 1

      Tracking the locations of cell towers != tracking a user

      So - at what level of resolution does tracking become a problem?

      --

      -Turkey

    2. Re:Hmmm by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      It could be accurate to the millimeter and it wouldn't matter, it's only a problem when that information falls into the hands of anyone but the user. That is NOT happening.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    3. Re:Hmmm by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Tracking the locations of cell towers != tracking a user

      Is that the granularity of the database?!?

      Damn, people are paranoid! (sometimes rightly so; but not in this case).

      So, people are whining that the database kept to minimize call-drops when switching cell-towers (and to provide COARSE location data for Location Services) is now transmogrified into having a big-red-blinking-light attached to the top of your head?!?

      Sheesh!

    4. Re:Hmmm by riegel · · Score: 1

      If a cell tower tells the phone its location doesn't it make sense to save that so the same question doesn't get asked over and over again?

      --
      http://p8ste.com - Web based Clipboard
    5. Re:Hmmm by itsenrique · · Score: 1

      Says who? It's being stored in plain text on the computer end and in the phone. You think people who have the tech knowledge that may wish to use this information (to make money or catch someone cheating or whatever) haven't heard the news?

    6. Re:Hmmm by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Yes like any information you have, you have to protect it, what's your point ? If you gain access to someone's phone or pc the location history is going to be the least of your worries.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
  15. Maybe not the phone's location. by losthought · · Score: 3, Funny

    Take it as you will but this dude seems to think this data isn't actually a log of where an iPhone user has been. He claims it is actually location data of the cell towers the iPhone has seen. Obviously that kind of data could give rough location data but not with any granularity or meaningful accuracy.

    I do have an iPhone and have looked at my own data with the Tracker app. On the surface I would have to say there is some validity to this guy's claim because the location data on my phone included places I haven't been within 10 or 20 miles of ever. With that said I still installed the untrack app on my phone to dump the tables in the database where this data is stored, but that's mainly because my Tinfoil Hat Wearer's Club membership agreement required me to do so.

    1. Re:Maybe not the phone's location. by varmittang · · Score: 1

      Possibly, or it could be GPS messing up and plotting you in the wrong spot. I have ad it happen a few times. I will open Google Maps and it will put me about 10 to 50 miles off, then quickly fly back to where I'm currently located.

      --
      -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
      12345
      -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  16. Just look at the patent.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    "Claims:

    1. A computer-implemented method performed by a location aware device, the method comprising: configuring a processor of the location aware device to collect network information broadcast from a number of network transmitters over a time span; and storing the network information and corresponding timestamps in a database as location history data."

    I can generate that kind of patents as fast as I can type. Let's see...

    1.A computer implemented mechanism to count from computer-defined 0 to an arbitrary computer number in an efficient way.

    3. The method of claim 1, where the result is stored in a database.

    4. The method of claim 1, where count begins from an arbitrary number.

    5. The method of claim 1, where the counter is incremented by a computer-defined step that is not an integer 1.
    ... Should start building my "portfolio" asap.

    1. Re:Just look at the patent.... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      "Claims:

      1. A computer-implemented method performed by a location aware device, the method comprising: configuring a processor of the location aware device to collect network information broadcast from a number of network transmitters over a time span; and storing the network information and corresponding timestamps in a database as location history data." I can generate that kind of patents as fast as I can type. Let's see...

      1.A computer implemented mechanism to count from computer-defined 0 to an arbitrary computer number in an efficient way.

      3. The method of claim 1, where the result is stored in a database.

      4. The method of claim 1, where count begins from an arbitrary number.

      5. The method of claim 1, where the counter is incremented by a computer-defined step that is not an integer 1. ... Should start building my "portfolio" asap.

      Exactly!

      And Apple, like all big "tech" companies, patents a LOT of things they have no intention of implementing; or, which, for a variety of reasons, never see the light of day.

      Just because someone was able to use a patent search engine, does NOT mean that the patent had anything to do with a shipping product.

  17. It's a GPS! by Telvin_3d · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This whole thing is incredibly bizarre. People are complaining that their GPS knows where it's been. Think about that. Next they will be complaining that their phone keeps track of their calls. The horror!

    The information doesn't even get sent anywhere. It is collected by the phone for its own use. Sure, when you back the phone up to your computer this gets moved along with everything else. Darn Apple for backing up your phone when you tell it to back up your phone. How thoughtless. You'd think they would at least include an option to encrypt it so that no one could... oh, wait they did. With a single easy-to-use checkbox option.

    Seriously, if anyone out there is this paranoid about anyone going through their backups or phones then a smart-phone is probably not the tool for them. If anyone really is going through your backups they have physical access to your computer and phone and your position history is probably the least of your worries. Grow up. Yes, the iPhone (and every other smartphone) keeps more information then phones (or anything else) did twenty years ago. They also do more things than anything did twenty years ago. That's the selling point.

    1. Re:It's a GPS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that. They have a list of every Email and text message sent and a history or every website you visited.

      Oh my god does the world know about this? I have to inform everyone on facebook after I finish up loading my tagging myself in photos that have geo location tags in them.

    2. Re:It's a GPS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This whole thing is incredibly bizarre. People are complaining that their GPS knows where it's been. Think about that. Next they will be complaining that their phone keeps track of their calls. The horror!

      In Soviet Amerika, GPS helps THEM find YOU.

    3. Re:It's a GPS! by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      By the same logic, you shouldn't worry about having a secret zipper on the back of your pants. It's on your pants, there for your own use. Nobody has unzipped it yet, so it must be benign.

      Don't worry, no one is going to pull down that secret zipper and screw you.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    4. Re:It's a GPS! by second_coming · · Score: 1

      Surely the fact that the data is not currently being used is irrelevant. Once the data is copied to your computer when you perform a sync you are then wide open for any future virus that may target that information. How someone could actually make use of that information I couldn't say but it is a very real possibility.

    5. Re:It's a GPS! by medv4380 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      NO it's not GPS. If this was GPS then the results would be far more accurate. If I want my smart phone to know where I am so that it can suggest a store or pretend to be my in car navigator then I will turn on the GPS. If I want it tracking my movement using WiFi data then I will turn on the WiFi locator so that it can do that instead. They are doing something that you cant actually turn OFF by tracking you using the Cell towers. It's a feature that is unnecessary since it has GPS that i can turn on if I need it. If someone needs to legally watch me and track me using my phone then Law Enforcement can go get the paperwork and they can get better information from the Cell companies and even track me in real time. This makes no sense as to why it even exists. Except maybe to allow someone to spy on me by getting a hold of that file.

    6. Re:It's a GPS! by ptbarnett · · Score: 1

      NO it's not GPS. If this was GPS then the results would be far more accurate.

      It's Assisted GPS. The WiFi and cell tower transmitter location data is used to assist the GPS.

      From a cold start, GPS takes a long time and a lot of power to determine an accurate position. If the GPS knows approximately where it is (and what time it is), it knows what satellites are above the horizon and can "lock" much faster than if it has to figure it out on its own.

      The assistance for GPS is necessary for it to work as you expect: turn on Google Maps (or any other app that uses the location services), and it determines your position within a few seconds.

      The cache is nothing but an optimization: if the phone didn't keep it, it would have to query Apple's online database every time location services were requested to get the positions of the transmitters the phone can hear. That would increase the time to solution, and use more of your monthly allotment of data.

    7. Re:It's a GPS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to understand GPS a little better. Look up a-gps (assisted gps). Ordinary gps can take ages (up to 12 minutes) to get a lock on your location. This database speeds things up, especially in urban locations where your phone may not have clear line of sight to the sky.

      Also look up skyhook location services. This is not just an Apple issue. All smartphones are reporting their location to do the things that they do.

      This is not directed at you personally, but the quality of technical understanding on Slashdot has plummeted over the years now, to the point that these issues result in discussions like this.

    8. Re:It's a GPS! by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      This whole thing is incredibly bizarre. People are complaining that their GPS knows where it's been. Think about that.

      Yes, think about that. For what reason does my GPS need to know where I've BEEN? I can understand it wanting to know where I AM, and where I might BE (for mapping purposes), but there's really no benefit in knowing where I WAS, unless I want to specifically map my path.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    9. Re:It's a GPS! by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      Why does the cache need to exist save the last access of tower location? Getting the location of a tower takes a second or two, plenty of time to speed up your GPS acquisition. If I am traveling in Los Angeles, there is precious little benefit in knowing where a tower was 8 months ago when I was in Bangkok, Thailand.

      .
      Additionally, acquisition from a cold start should take less than 30 seconds (unless you have a really poor chipset); with a single, quick hit on the cell tower server (I use an HTC Touch Pro 2 and it has a "QuickGPS" app that does just that - ping's Verizon's servers about the position of the current tower I'm talking to) to get the position of the tower I'm connected, that GPS acquisition should be in the sub-3 second range.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    10. Re:It's a GPS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it's not GPS. Like the parent said, It's AGPS.

      And of course Apple won't allow you to turn it off. How else do you think the "WiFi locator" works? By having all iPhones continuously sending home the locations of wireless access points they found! The larger the database, the better it works!

    11. Re:It's a GPS! by ptbarnett · · Score: 1

      Why does the cache need to exist save the last access of tower location?

      So that it doesn't have to ask for it again, repeatedly. It's a network optimization.

      I agree there's no reason to keep the location of a tower your phone heard 8 months ago, and that's where I think Apple messed up. Google's methodology of limiting the size of the cache to the newest 50 cell towers and 200 WiFi APs is a better solution, although I can think of a case where the WiFi cache needs to be bigger.

      Microsoft claims their phone isn't caching the transmitter locations at all. I think that's the worst of all possibilities, because that means that the phone is querying their server every time (and with a random, but unique ID). They also admit to retaining it for an unspecified period of time. That basically puts more than the information currently on the iPhone in Microsoft's server, completely out of your control.

      Additionally, acquisition from a cold start should take less than 30 seconds (unless you have a really poor chipset); with a single, quick hit on the cell tower server

      30 seconds is a long time for people that are using an app that needs location services, and aren't aware of the limitations. And you're right: a single network request is enough, but Apple uses/maintains their own location database (as does Google and Microsoft). However, it requires network access, which may not work at the moment -- and the cache will probably have enough information to approximate the phone's position.

      There's one location service that you WANT to work under the worst conditions: 911. However, I'm not sure if the "enhanced 911" required for the cell phone companies uses the phone's GPS or if they rely on their own system that is independent of the phone.

  18. You know what surprises me? by JustAnotherIdiot · · Score: 4, Funny

    That people are surprised by this.

    --
    What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
  19. Re:Been said before, but by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

    >>>I've a special place in my heart for 'em.

    Ditto. Apple lost my loyalty when they stopped using the superior Motorola 68000/powerpc and switched to Intel. That's almost as bad as if they decided to switch to Windows OS, or install MS-IE as their default browser.

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
  20. fewer unwashed, armies flocking to cradle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fiction comes true again. some of the most lethal theater ever sciptdead. we must focus, on the images, of our right to serve god, given by god, to the chosen ones, to distribute to our rulers, who in turn assign us our right to serve god, in the most effective way, which is destroying god's (& in turn, our owned) enemies. on to mebotuh, weather permitting.

  21. JUST LEAVE STEVE ALONE !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Leave him alone !! He just wants to be Steve in the time he has left !! Why won't you just leave Steve alone !!

  22. not essential for a smartphone by 1800maxim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Reading your comment would make one think that location tracking and location history is part of being a "smart" phone. There's nothing in the smartphone that requires this behaviour.

    The problem with this data is that
    1) A user cannot erase it analogous to clearing cache/cookines on a PC
    2) It is purposely hidden from the user
    3) Law enforcement in states like Michigan can download this information WITHOUT a warrant
    4) Potential for abuse by apps and / or people who will stalk you/spy on you unbeknown to you.

    Not to mention, that this is just wrong. There are certain inalienable rights (or at least they are supposed to be there), and a right to privacy is one of them.

    Any such system should be opt-in ONLY.

    1. Re:not essential for a smartphone by Telvin_3d · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The right to privacy from your own phone? You realize that this is the thing that you use to send you conversations with people over the air through a series of third party servers? If you are afraid of your phone hearing your conversations or your GPS knowing where it is then it is long past time for you to check out of modern society.

      Purposefully hidden from the user? In the same sense that the rest of the system files are busy in the background running the system.

      And yes, these kinds of things are necessary in a smartphone. At least as long as a smartphone is defined as more than a regular phone with a big-ass screen.

    2. Re:not essential for a smartphone by kevinNCSU · · Score: 1

      3) Law enforcement in states like Michigan can download this information WITHOUT a warrant

      No, Law enforcement in Michigan are being accused of doing so (interestingly enough, not by anyone who had it done to them), there's a difference. Law enforcement in Michigan can also shoot you in the head for no reason but that doesn't mean they're allowed to. It's simply the ACLU looking into why they have a device. The device your talking about Michigan police using is the Cellebrite UFED Physical Pro, you connect via a cable unless you have access to cause the phone to accept a bluetooth connection. You'd be hard pressed to do this as a police officer without asking for the suspect's phone and consent for a search. Otherwise you're taking it forcefully at which point you've opened yourself to a lawsuit and all the evidence is now void.

    3. Re:not essential for a smartphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? What could they possibly want with that data?

      The point is, if your stalker/spouse/parents/evil mastermind wanted to know where you were last Tuesday they can get that data fairly easily from your phone, or even from the backup of your phone that sits on your PC/Mac. The best that could be managed prior to this would be to find out where you are NOW by contacting the authorities and getting a court order to track your mobile signal.

      The phone never asked permission to collect this data, and there is no way to switch it off without affecting the phones normal operation i.e. turning off the GPS.

      If you can't see a problem with this then you are deluded.

    4. Re:not essential for a smartphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      go suck a dick, aspie

    5. Re:not essential for a smartphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They need a warrant or owner permission in Michigan to download your data.

  23. You all hate the free market by bmo · · Score: 2, Funny

    Whatever is good for companies is good for society. The Magic Invisible Hand of the Free market will eventually give everyone what they want. Why are you against free markets? Why are you against freedom? Why are you against the Best Economic System On Earth (TM)? Why *can't* Apple do what it wants with its own phone operating system and phones? You don't own iOS - you only have the temporary right to operate it. It's a license agreement, not a bill of sale. If the phone collects data on you, that's because it was designed that way. Page 25, subsection c, footnote 1 of the iOS license agreement allows this and you consented when you acquired the phone.

    This is being used to track terrorists! If you are against this, you are for the terrorists!

    Seriously people, THINK.

    abj V arrq gb tb gnxr n sevttva' fubjre nsgre glcvat gung.
    V srry qvegl.

    --
    BMO

    1. Re:You all hate the free market by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 2

      It's a shame you aren't a farmer-- you're good at making straw men.

    2. Re:You all hate the free market by ravenscar · · Score: 1

      LOL - read the comments above. People aren't nearly as concerned about Apple getting the information as they are about the government.

  24. Really??? by Nautica · · Score: 1

    What do you think the cell phone providers do? They store cell phone location information all the time and give it to law enforcement when needed!

  25. Re:Been said before, but by spheric_harlot · · Score: 1

    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but Apple switched over to the Dark Side when they ditched Motorola 680x0 and formed an alliance with the mortal enemy, IBM, to forge the PowerPC. THAT was earth-shattering. The switch to Intel has been nothing but positive for them - and us, as users. Also, Apple actually did pre-install MS-IE as their default browser for about five years, from 1998 up until Safari was released, whenever that was.

  26. RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by IBitOBear · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dude, the fact that apple doesn't collect that information by default at the present time doesn't help _you_ or any other member of the Reality Distortion Field...

    (1) Any app at any time including IOS updates has that information at its disposal, so iFarmville now knows where you spend most of your time and when you are not home. So maybe does any active advertisement ware and those free-but-buy-stuff games your kid is playing.

    (2) Your phone is PRE-tapped as far as law enforcement is concerned. If I put a GPS anklet on you now "just in case do do something later" would you be fine with that? If I say it also "does iTunes" does it make it retroactively okay?

    (3) I can "give you" an app and that app can now tell me how much time you spend shopping and where you shop down to the department of the store (couple meters).

    (4) God save you if you get divorced or become subject to any legal fishing exiditions.

    Suppose some legal person gets a hard on for the legal pursuit of you. I decide you are a child predator because that helps me get reelected. I take your phone log, makes excerpts of it, and "notice" in front of the Grand Jury and the actual Jury that you spend an awful lot of time near a preschool. Now _you_ never noticed that your coffee stand of choice is right next to some kinder-care place in the same strip mall, or if you did, you didn't care at all. But _there_ _you_ _are_ spending every morning watching the kiddies come and go "according to your phone" and the way someone has chosen to take data and "reimagine" your intent.

    Less Obviously: If I took the iPhone you have in your hot little hands, and computed all the time-distance values "near" roads, how often would you "be speeding"... lets just use that to set your car and health insurance rates shall we? Do you have an app from your insurance company on your phone right now? Will you never have such an app? Are you _sure_?

    The question isn't who is getting the data by default, its a question of where the data _might_ go and what it says about your past to some creative mind somewhere.

    Don't paint me as "all hysterical" though. I have latatude on my Android devices. I know about the _actual_ cache in Android as opposed to the full journal in iPhones. Every day I walk into a number of places where cell phones are forbidden for security reasons. I have been fully briefed about the background cost in lost privacy to having a hot phone in my hands for more than ten years.

    IOS _has_ stepped over a very bright line, but we are boiling frogs here, and the Reality Distortion Field is just letting the iFrogs cook faster.

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
    1. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 5, Informative

      I believe you are SERIOUSLY misinformed about exactly what this database is and where it is accessible

      1) Any app as in any DESKTOP application on your mac that you willfully install knowing it may do this and provided your backups aren't encrypted. iFarmville (assuming the i means it's for iOS) CANNOT access this database, ever.
      2) Your phone is not pre-tapped, the database cannot be accessed on the phone without hacking/jailbreaking. Further, law enforcement would have a much easier time getting the location from the cell phone companies which can give them REAL TIME data.
      3) You could give me a desktop app that does this, provided I don't have my backups encrypted. You could give me an iPhone app that does this, but it will tell me that it's tracking me.
      4) This would be no different from someone being hired to follow you, they can draw the same (incorrect) inferences about your habits.

    2. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Pure honesty here: as a very satisfied Apple user I had an interesting reaction while reading #2...

      >(2) If I put a GPS anklet on you now "just in case do do something later" would you be fine with that?
      What?! God no!!
      >If I say it also "does iTunes" does it make it retroactively okay?
      Hmmm, wait a minute...

    3. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by LoganDzwon · · Score: 3, Informative

      (1) Your just flat wrong. no app can access the cache info. (2) that doesn't even make any sense. The phone doesn't track it's actual position, it only tracks each cell tower's location and the last time it's seen it. It isn't even a running log, if it see the same cell tower again, it updates the time stamp, it does not create a new entry. (3) they have that. it's called loopt. They have it for Android also. How is that relative? (4) I agree, but again completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. ANY info you can get out of the cache data you can get via the operator of the cell towers. In your case you'd need a court order either way. At lest if you had the iphone you'd have your own data without a court order. Your political example would be have to based on logs from the call company. the iOS logs are neither accurate a enough, nor dated in a such way to be useful for your proposed purpse. You would only be able to see the most recent time that I connected to a cell tower in with-in range of a school, ( average US tower has about a 4 mile diameter.) Again, there is not nearly enough data to compute the rate of travel.

    4. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Suppose some legal person gets a hard on for the legal pursuit of you. I decide you are a child predator because that helps me get reelected. I take your phone log, makes excerpts of it, and "notice" in front of the Grand Jury and the actual Jury that you spend an awful lot of time near a preschool. Now _you_ never noticed that your coffee stand of choice is right next to some kinder-care place in the same strip mall, or if you did, you didn't care at all. But _there_ _you_ _are_ spending every morning watching the kiddies come and go "according to your phone" and the way someone has chosen to take data and "reimagine" your intent.

      Well, gee... it sure is convenient that we live in a world where circumstantial evidence is all that's needed before calling up a jury, right? And it sure is convenient that after I show up every morning to the same coffee stand, and spend a significant amount of time there, nobody recognizes me as "that guy who stares at the cute girl behind the counter" or "that guy who does the daily crossword puzzle." Attempting such a weak case would be political suicide.

      Less Obviously: If I took the iPhone you have in your hot little hands, and computed all the time-distance values "near" roads, how often would you "be speeding"... lets just use that to set your car and health insurance rates shall we? Do you have an app from your insurance company on your phone right now? Will you never have such an app? Are you _sure_?

      In order: Rarely, yes please, no, I sure hope I do someday, and yes. I'm sorry, was there a point you were trying to make?

      I have absolutely no problem with people or companies knowing my actions. I follow applicable laws, and I know how to sue those that don't. If the insurance company promises me (in a legally-binding way) that recording me driving safely will lower my premiums, I'd be happy to bring a salesman to work with me daily. If they just want to put a radio beacon in my car, that's fine. An app would work too, I suppose. If, after presenting a record that appears to be safe, they don't lower my premiums or explain what I did that was unsafe, I do have a few lawyers I visit regularly.

      As you can probably tell from my sig, I have little respect for the folks who think they have some absolute right to behave however they want, to the detriment of society at large. If an app from an insurance company can shift insurance premiums more heavily towards those who increase costs, I'm happy with it.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    5. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by ArcCoyote · · Score: 2

      (1) Any app at any time including IOS updates has that information at its disposal, so iFarmville now knows where you spend most of your time and when you are not home. So maybe does any active advertisement ware and those free-but-buy-stuff games your kid is playing.

      WRONG. Apps on the phone can NOT get the information in consolidated.db. They can access the location services API, which uses consolidated to assist GPS, but only if you approved them. And there is a off switch for that.

      (2) Your phone is PRE-tapped as far as law enforcement is concerned. If I put a GPS anklet on you now "just in case do do something later" would you be fine with that? If I say it also "does iTunes" does it make it retroactively okay?

      WRONG. LE needs a warrant for anything on your phone. And if LE wants the locations of the cell towers you've used, along with direct triangulation of your position, they can serve a warrant to your provider.

      (3) I can "give you" an app and that app can now tell me how much time you spend shopping and where you shop down to the department of the store (couple meters).

      Nifty. If you allowed the app to use Location Services.

      (4) God save you if you get divorced or become subject to any legal fishing exiditions.

      Your first example shows you have no idea how dirty politics or the legal system works. Every accusation has some basis in fact, because all politicians are kinda dirty. No one is going to try the creeper angle on evidence that flimsy. And if you tried to take that crap into a courtroom, the judge would probably throw his gavel straight at your head. Assuming that steaming pile of 'evidence' was allowed, who do you think the jury will believe as soon as your lawyer points out the Starbucks you frequent is in the same radius, and your receipts prove you were there, not to mention the WiFi hotspot at said Starbucks is the 'proof' in the location log...

      As for insurance companies... they are already offering potential policy discounts for 'safe driving'. The catch? a dongle that goes on your car's OBD-II port, recording your speed, acceleration, braking, and how much you drive. You upload the data to your PC, then send it to the insurance company... now that's really being Big Brother, and you still have to opt-in.

      "Android.. Android... as opposed to iPhones.. iFrogs" You're already in your parents' basement, right? Time to go to bed, little fanboy, you're getting cranky and paranoid.

    6. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I found your perspective very interesting, especially #4. It really made me think and I'll remember your example. You were kind enough to mention how you got this perspective:

      "Every day I walk into a number of places where cell phones are forbidden for security reasons. I have been fully briefed about the background cost in lost privacy to having a hot phone in my hands for more than ten years."

      Without mentioning anything that goes over the line about the actual place you can't be for security reasons - could you mention more of this briefing? I find it very interesting. In particular, I have a hard time understanding why - other than if you are not trusted not to take photos and smuggle them out - a live cell phone would be forbidden anywhere (except a plane in flight). And the photo example actually doesn't concern whether the phone is "live" (it is just as big a threat on this point in a radio-dead 'airplane mode') Could you elaborate? Thank you - and thanks for the insightful post.

    7. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry but i can't understand when you've got your mouth full of s jobs' cock. finish what you're doing and then please start again.

    8. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Errr... what?

      1) Any app as in any DESKTOP application on your mac that you willfully install knowing it may do this and provided your backups aren't encrypted. iFarmville (assuming the i means it's for iOS) CANNOT access this database, ever.

      How would a desktop application know (quoting GP now) "where you spend most of your time and when you are not home"? Surely you see the difference between "the subject uses his computer at home" and "the subject spends a lot of time at his friend's home while his friend is at work"?

      2) Your phone is not pre-tapped, the database cannot be accessed on the phone without hacking/jailbreaking.

      I don't know what the GP meant by "pre-tapped," except, I suppose, that there might be legal precedent stating law enforcement has a right to request this data. If you're ever arrested, they can get the data off your phone, at which time it's the equivalent of having followed you around (even when they never did).

      3) You could give me a desktop app that does this, provided I don't have my backups encrypted.

      Again, what? How could an app that's sitting on your desktop Mac at home know where you are when you're not at home? Clearly this doesn't seem to be an issue for you, but it certainly is for everybody else.

      4) This would be no different from someone being hired to follow you, they can draw the same (incorrect) inferences about your habits.

      It would be different, and if you don't see that you're blind. A person hired to follow you around actually has to follow you around. That costs time and money. This way, all the attorneys have to do is subpoena the information that they already know is on your phone. Second, an investigator that follows you around has to take the stand and give testimony against you, and your attorney has the right of cross-examination. "Did my client appear to be looking at the children? Which table was he sitting at, and which direction was he facing?" With automatically gathered location data, it merely has to be presented by the prosecuting attorney and, in the jury's eyes, it's up to you to shoot holes in this "factual, computerized data." That's a big, big difference.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    9. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      The court order part isn't really true (nor false), as it seam (a very grey area of the law) if you have the phone on you any cop arresting you for any reason can fiddle with it. add to that the fact : there are tools to extract a lot of info from any phones. And you have a recipe for disaster.

    10. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      I have absolutely no problem with people or companies knowing my actions. I follow applicable laws, and I know how to sue those that don't. If the insurance company promises me (in a legally-binding way) that recording me driving safely will lower my premiums, I'd be happy to bring a salesman to work with me daily. If they just want to put a radio beacon in my car, that's fine. An app would work too, I suppose. If, after presenting a record that appears to be safe, they don't lower my premiums or explain what I did that was unsafe, I do have a few lawyers I visit regularly.

      There : the nothing to hide argument .... very very dangerous !

    11. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Further, law enforcement would have a much easier time getting the location from the cell phone companies which can give them REAL TIME data.

      Not exactly. In some states police are allowed to search your phone at a traffic stop. Pulling someone over on a pretext and then downloading their entire unencrypted location history would be extremely easy.

      This would be no different from someone being hired to follow you, they can draw the same (incorrect) inferences about your habits.

      Tailing someone costs time and money. Nobody has to hire Apple if the data is already there.

    12. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 3, Informative

      How would a desktop application know (quoting GP now) "where you spend most of your time and when you are not home"? Surely you see the difference between "the subject uses his computer at home" and "the subject spends a lot of time at his friend's home while his friend is at work"?

      The database from the phone is stored in the backup of the phone on your desktop, the database on the phone is inaccessible to software on the phone. Hence it requires a desktop application in order to access the database.

      I don't know what the GP meant by "pre-tapped," except, I suppose, that there might be legal precedent stating law enforcement has a right to request this data. If you're ever arrested, they can get the data off your phone, at which time it's the equivalent of having followed you around (even when they never did).

      Or they could ask the cell phone companies for the exact same information that is stored in the phone (as they are keeping that same information on their servers).

      Again, what? How could an app that's sitting on your desktop Mac at home know where you are when you're not at home? Clearly this doesn't seem to be an issue for you, but it certainly is for everybody else.

      See above. The database of locations is not software accessible on the phone, only in the unencrypted backups on a regular computer. It's not an issue for me because I chose to encrypt the backups by clicking the check box.

      It would be different, and if you don't see that you're blind. A person hired to follow you around actually has to follow you around. That costs time and money. This way, all the attorneys have to do is subpoena the information that they already know is on your phone. Second, an investigator that follows you around has to take the stand and give testimony against you, and your attorney has the right of cross-examination. "Did my client appear to be looking at the children? Which table was he sitting at, and which direction was he facing?" With automatically gathered location data, it merely has to be presented by the prosecuting attorney and, in the jury's eyes, it's up to you to shoot holes in this "factual, computerized data." That's a big, big difference.

      You're right, they would have to pay a PI. Or they could put a tracking device on you. Or they could ask the cell phone company for the exact same data that is on the phone. If the government or someone with with sufficient resources wants to track you - they're probably gonna be able to track you.

    13. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      It would seem the laws in your country are broken, not really a problem with the phone. No amount of encryption is going to protect you in a police state.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    14. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      In my country the laws are fine. At least for now, an election was forced and the bills introduced in parliament to facilitate this kind of things died.
      I was speaking of yours (I'm assuming you're south of us). See posts bellow about something in Michigan, and the "plain sight" thingy.

    15. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by burne · · Score: 1

      Further, law enforcement would have a much easier time getting the location from the cell phone companies which can give them REAL TIME data.

      Not online is telco-data realtime, it's also accurate. The data in my iPad has miles of error and sometimes unexplainable data. Since I bought my iPad I haven't been outside my country, but it nevertheless contains data suggesting I've been to the UK and Germany. It shows me being in the north-west of the Netherlands (for ten minutes) while I was attending a meeting in the east and I have 12 people to vouch for my presence and most will remember my iPad since I gave a keynote-presentation with it. None will remember me teleporting to Den Helder for ten minutes.

      Any law-enforcement officer willing to use data like that deserves the scathing reactions it will produce. 'reasonable doubt', remember?

    16. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by burne · · Score: 1

      Auto-correct fail:

      'Not online is telco-data realtime, it's also accurate.' should be 'Not only is telco-data real-time, it's also accurate.'

    17. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      I'm actually in the EU, so I'm good thanks :-)

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    18. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      "Did my client appear to be looking at the children?" would be a pretty hard question to answer by subpoenaing cell phone location records...which is precisely why these concerns are so comical. Please please PLEASE introduce "evidence" of my whereabouts from my phone log without any other substantiation of what I was doing. Any public defendant could win that case.

    19. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by guspasho · · Score: 3, Interesting

      1) Ever? All it takes is Apple deciding to offer it as available to app developers. Did you notice the patent pending in the summary? This is there so Apple can make a profit off of it.

      2) Did you not read the stories about the cops in Michigan? They will get this information from you at a routine traffic stop, no warrant or even suspicion required.

      3) iTunes doesn't encrypt backups by default. What percentage do you think turns on encryption?

      4) Except following tens of millions of people for their entire lives can get expensive. This makes it exceptionally cheap and easy, and therefore much easier to abuse, and not just on a case by case basis but en masse.

    20. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Phones aren't allowed into any SCIFs (lookup SCIF for yourself). Not because the people with the phones aren't to be trusted, but because the phones can be activated remotely without the knowledge of the owner. This has been shown to be true...a cell tower can turn on a phone in the off position and activate the microphone. Even though that seems very unlikely, people are really dumb and will do something they aren't supposed to with their phone, not out of spite, but out of stupidity, so the simple solution is to not allow them in.

    21. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4) This would be no different from someone being hired to follow you, they can draw the same (incorrect) inferences about your habits.

      This is what is forgotten. I keep seeing people claim ridiculous things about this near meaningless data. Encrypt your backup AND watch your back.

      Hell, I could look at your public social profiles and pretty much figure out where you are and have been.

    22. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Pla123 · · Score: 1

      You are a bit naive.
      Any time law enforcement or a company wants the info, all they need to do is tell Apple to install the "real-time" reporting app over the air.
      Or maybe the "feature" is already a service of the OS just not activated - a single SMS may turn it on.

      Btw, it will not only start tracking from time of activation, it will report all previous history since you bought the phone.

      All this is speculation but that is the point - what is possible because all of the history is stored without your control.

      What if your boss asks you for your logs while you were sick. You can't refuse cause he knows you have the logs. (of course you shouldn't work for a boss like that in the first place...) You can't say I deleted it cause you can't delete it ;)

    23. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by akvalentine · · Score: 1

      You can refuse because your boss has no right to that information. Even if your boss stole your phone to get the data, there is no way he can prove you were the one using the phone at the time. Just say you we at home in bed and you loaned the phone to a friend for the day.

    24. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      Oh sorry them, my assumption was incorrect :-)

    25. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by molnarcs · · Score: 1
      You may have a point there except:

      "2) Your phone is not pre-tapped, the database cannot be accessed on the phone without hacking/jailbreaking"

      Apple can access it any time (there is no evidence though that it does, except copying it all over the place). They could have issued an iOS update that made use of that data at any time in the future... And since intentionality of this database is well established now, it just makes sense that they actually wanted to do so. It sounds unreasonable that they just collected the data to have it sit around on every iDevice you have without using it. I think, as many speculate (and this is not far fetched at all) that this data could be used as a selling point to ad partners - I mean not even Google has that kind of info on you, and unlike Apple, you have full control over what they have and can clear it if you wish so.

    26. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fanboi detected. Enjoy being exploited, dipshit.

    27. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you know that the database is not accessible to software on the phone? It may not be available to non-apple iOS software but how do you know that Apple's own apps don't have access? How do you know that the database is not being encrypted and sent to Apple every so often? Do you track every bit of data which is sent from your phone? Maybe that "check for updates" is sending the new data from the database back to Apple as a encrypted chunk. Maybe that phone home feature is sending it, wasn't there a ruckus regarding the iPhone phoning home at a certain time every day a few months ago?

      The system is closed, you cannot tell what the phone is doing with the data without hacking it. Even with the iPhone being hacked, would a app being able to monitor the file for accesses by the system or whether it was being sent home to Apple? Practices like that have been done for many years by root kits on windows and the *nixes. It would be trivial for the OS to be able to do it.

    28. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      1. The database is inaccessible to normal user-installed apps, but presumably it is used by some part of the OS or there would be little point collecting it. Do you trust Apple with this data? Are you sure they will never make an API available for "select partners"?

      2. Having the data available on the phone or a PC bypasses some of the usual legal checks that are required to get the same data from the phone company.

      3. The phone company probably doesn't bother to triangulate the position of each phone. They keep logs of which tower a phone was using but if there is any location data it is going to be a lot less accurate than what the iPhone keeps.

      4. How long does the phone company keep this information? Are there any similar limits on the iPhone's database? Two years is the norm in Europe.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    29. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      If the government or someone with with sufficient resources wants to track you - they're probably gonna be able to track you.

      What about a spouse? They won't have access to your cell phone company's tracking data, and they probably wouldn't want to shell out money for a P.I. right now (... or know where to find one...), but they have very easy access to your desktop computer and might know that your backup password is the first name of your oldest son, just like any other password that you have.

    30. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if it see the same cell tower again, it updates the time stamp, it does not create a new entry

      I'm sorry but you're not correct on this point. The iPhone DOES create multiple entries per device, that's part of why people are so upset. It's not necessary unless you want to track people's movement, which is what Apple's patent is showing they intended to do. Note that the Android OS only stores one entry per device, and updates that single entry- that might be where you're getting confused.

      Now, I'd like to note that Apple isn't being smart about HOW they're storing the data on the phone, but it looks to me more a matter of poor programming than anything malicious. They've stated that they don't upload your tracking information unless you've opted-in to their Location Services, just like Google doesn't upload your tracking info unless you've opted into theirs. The main difference is that with Android, the cache will get flushed on a regular basis, and in fact you can turn Location Services off and then back on and it'll flush it out. There currently is no way to flush your cache on the iPhone without doing a factory reset, or rooting the phone and manually clearing it out.

      You are correct that in normal circumstances an app won't be able to access the iPhone's log file. (It's a log, not a cache, because it is not limited in size and does not expire like a cache does). But if you have your iPhone "jailbroken" aka rooted, it can very well be accessed by an app.

      ANY info you can get out of the cache data you can get via the operator of the cell towers.

      This is not quite true. First, not all cell towers can talk to all phones, so in some cases a tower simply does not see a phone which a different tower does see. However, the phone will see both towers, and log them as it stores what it sees, not just what it logs onto or registers with.
      But the phone also does this with every wireless access point it sees. And it doesn't even have to try to log on to them, it stores what it sees. Plus, most people use cheap access points which don't really have much in the way of logging the devices which DO connect to them.
      And that's not even counting the hassle with figuring out who owns which towers and access points, and getting a judge to approve all the warrants necessary. It's much, much easier to get a warrant for a single person's cell phone, which has ALL the data wrapped up in a nice package. Despite what you seem to think, the courts HAVE upheld the police's right to download your entire cell phone's data set during even a routine traffic stop.

    31. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by he-sk · · Score: 1

      You're right, they would have to pay a PI. Or they could put a tracking device on you. Or they could ask the cell phone company for the exact same data that is on the phone. If the government or someone with with sufficient resources wants to track you - they're probably gonna be able to track you.

      That may be true, but it isn't a good reason to give law enforcement yet another option of tracking you.

      Also, I think one reason for the outrage is that it gives other attackers an easy way to track your (past) movements that wasn't available before to them (non-law-enforcement people like, say, a disgruntled spouse or relative). The police can get your location data from the mobile carriers, but the average person can't. Now, they don't have to, because all they need is to steal your phone for a few moments.

      --
      Free Manning, jail Obama.
    32. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BUT instead of hiring someone to follow boring You who never leave the basement, can just phish all the log files of millions to see who is the most vulnerable or exploitable, and don't need authority to access cell company server.

    33. Re:RDS astroturf for the First Post Win? by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      The database from the phone is stored in the backup of the phone on your desktop, the database on the phone is inaccessible to software on the phone. Hence it requires a desktop application in order to access the database.

      OK, I see what you're saying now. But we're back to the fact that the phone records the data in the first place, which I think is the root of the complaint, no? Whether you access it from the desktop or from the phone somehow, the fact that it exists to be accessed is the problem (provided, of course, that this whole issue doesn't turn out to be bullshit, which is starting to sound like is the case...).

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
  27. You lost my loyalty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when you claimed the powerpc was superior.

  28. Re:Been said before, but by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    I bet your partner hears you murmuring 'Altivec' at night when you're asleep.

  29. Untrackerd causing problems? by jgtg32a · · Score: 2

    Has Untrackerd the "fix" caused problems for anyone else? My phone (3gs 4.0.1 8A306) randomly dies and refuses to boot unless I'm plugged into a computer or am holding the home button down while it boots. I'll admit it could be a coincidence but this foolishness started within 8 hours after installing this.

    1. Re:Untrackerd causing problems? by brkello · · Score: 1

      It seems bizarre to me that you would even think of preventing it. But then I remember, I am on Slashdot...where paranoia reigns supreme. The phone already tracks your location and record other location based information like the last cell towers you connected to. Why would you care if it records that data at a finer grain. There is no real knowledge that this information is being taken off the phone...and now you have installed a 3rd party app without really knowing who the people are who wrote it. Heck, they could have just put something on your phone that extracts that data to them.
       
      If you really care about your privacy, you wouldn't get a device that can track you down to a few meters.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  30. Good Showing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Apple FanBoys are certainly gathering to defend this round in their ever expanding customer abuse portfolio.

  31. In soviet russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Phones track YOU...ermm wait!

  32. In other news... by joh · · Score: 3, Interesting
    1. Re:In other news... by QuasiSteve · · Score: 1

      Your one-liner omits the all-important part that separates it from the iOS (and Android) issue:

      Microsoft did stress is that if location services are disabled on the phone, then any and all location information, including the device IDs, is no longer sent to the company.

      The question ars should have asked Microsoft is whether enabling GPS and -disabling- location services through WiFi and cell towers is possible and whether doing so will also prevent location information to be sent to their servers.

      Note that for WiFi and cell tower positioning to work, you almost have to send the basic information to a server as the alternative is to download a database of wifi hotspot IDs and cell tower IDs ahead of time and let apps correlate against that. That works okay for a small region - not so much for e.g. the entire continental United States. I would be very surprised if iOS and Android used the latter model.

      Pretty much a non-story there except for also sending the DeviceID along. Though odds are that if you're essentially communicating with microsoft's servers and their services, the DeviceID isn't the only identifying metric; unless it were open to anything making a query.

  33. android does it too by josepha48 · · Score: 1

    Android does this also, so I wonder if apple gets their patent does this mean android will have to stop? It seems like something obvious that the government would want, oh wait there was a movie about this, sort of, Eagle Eye. Very big brotherish IMO and I'm sure there will be more suits to come.

    --

    Only 'flamers' flame!

  34. The patent works against the tracking argument by NameIsDavid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As many have stated for days now to no avail, the iPhone consolidated.db log does not store and user location data. Even the patent indicates this. To understand this better, consider how both iOS and Android devices estimate user location when GPS is not available. They triangulate based on position relative to cell towers and wi-fi APs, which, in turn, requires the phone to know the location of these reference points. Since towers and APs don't transmit their own coordinates, phones need access to a position database. There are two ways this access can happen. The phone can either access the info over the internet, with all attendant delays, or it can maintain a local database and go off-phone only when there is no hit in this cache. But how can one keep this local database from becoming too large? Limit it to those cell towers that the user has connected with in the past, since those are the ones the user is more likely to be near in the future. This leads to a file on the phone containing location coordinates of towers and APs to which the phone has connected. Not user location data ... reference point data. And not in linear time, but only the most recent encounter with each reference point. In other words, the consolidated.db file. The Apple patent claims exactly this.

    1. Re:The patent works against the tracking argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words "Steve you are explaining it incorrectly". If these guys hadn't so many fanbois shilling for free perhaps they would have hired proper PR?

  35. Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google is doing exactly the same thing with android.

    1. Re:Google by Overzeetop · · Score: 0

      Google is doing the same thing with EVERY service they offer. Did you know they can read all of your emails, including where and when you sent them?

      There is a price for convenience. Most of the time it is trivial. If the price is too high, people simply need to opt out. Turn of location services if you're paranoid, and opt for encrypted backups in iTunes. Just don't complain that your convenience is hampered as a result.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  36. Re:Been said before, but by ArcherB · · Score: 1

    What a long way Apple has come.

    I find it rather sad really...I used to be a Mac-guy (before Linux stole my heart), so I've a special place in my heart for 'em.

    Listen to the "Big Brother" character talking. For the first time, I heard him say, "... a garden of information..." I wonder if that garden is walled.

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
  37. doesn't anyone LIKE this feature? by Sebastopol · · Score: 1

    I kinda dig it. I'm keeping it turned on because (a) I like to see a history of where i've been, it's like a photo album of sorts, and (b) if it turns out I do get screwed on a privacy issue, it'll be a great historic lawsuit!

    --
    https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
  38. Apple: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not tracking my butt.

    Every government's lapdog.

    Yours In Miami,
    Kilgore Trout, C.I.O.

  39. It's about time... by U8MyData · · Score: 1

    ...that things like this are addressed and properly I hope. I remember a day way back when when our outfit used sendmail as the organizations e-mail platform. I recall, not necessarily looking mind you, finding the /var/spool/mail and "cat"ing my own mail box. I was astonished to see that my mail box was right there in clear text for anyone to see that had rights to do so, or a want/need. This is when I clearly understood where things were headed. Log everything and keep it forever, just in case there was a failure in something, right? The caveat is that this information can and is used to build profiles against people. I've been on the investigation side of things so I know a bit about it. The more we touch in the electronic world the more control we lose individually. Handy for law enforcement, someone in the know, someone with the connections, and someone with the money. I would welcome an electronic, internet, privacy bill of rights that would guarantee individuals some very clear level of protection from this kind of thing, even if people opt in to tracking/caching/monitoring. Data collection is only a piece of a given puzzle but can be very dangerous to anyone who has attracted the wrong kind of attention. But then again, a case will be made for national security or the need to protect the women and children that will eventually wind up killing such a landmark piece of legislation. Only my 2c.

  40. android does it too by josepha48 · · Score: 1

    Android based phones have this feature also, so if apple patents it I guess it will either have to be removed or licensed. Kind of obvious 'feature' to me, but too big brother-ish IMO.

    --

    Only 'flamers' flame!

  41. This is so stupid it hurts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. The Cell phone companies have had this data since 1998 for e911, any claims of privacy being invaded is completely void by this alone. So the lawsuit is frivolous.
    2. Caching the data on the cell phone (eg that's what the patent is describing) and what Apple asserts is a bug (not purging the cache at all) is easily solved by not storing the cache to RAM (so it's effectively lost when the device runs out of power) or only storing it to NAND when the device actively engages the location-aware abilities (because then it makes logical sense to.) In case you are a complete moron and never go outside to get a proper GPS fix, the cellular network and other fixed WiFi access points is how the iPhone is able to engage A-GPS.

    There is nothing to see here, there is nothing new. Storing the data on the phone is just common sense for location-aware, and I'd sooner believe this is a bug than some crazy "apple is tracking us" because apple never requests the data be sent to them. No it's the other way around, the phone goes "where is tower X located" and triangulates it's position based on the signal strengths of the surrounding towers.

    Phones that have a real GPS in them take several minutes to download to get a fix on the GPS satellites, which means you have to burn several minutes of battery life every time you go inside and outside again. Caching the last state of the GPS makes getting a fix on the satellite much faster. If the phone doesn't have a real GPS in it, then it gets virtual GPS coordinates by triangulating the towers, exactly the same way e911 does.

    Anyone who "would never have bought it had I know it tracks my location" needs to promptly sell their devices and never touch another cell phone. Because ALL cell phones track your location.

    Even devices that aren't "phones" but still engage 3G data track your location. So no Nooks or Kindles for you either.

  42. i just can't work it out... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why is this still such a huge story?

    i mean if you had a customer base that are as easily impressed by and as ignorant of technology as Apples', then wouldn't you want to know exactly where they were?

    from a moral perspective it's obviously quite nasty to treat your customers so badly - but then again, if you're sad and foolish enough to buy Apple kit then you certainly deserve everything you get.

    good luck to both parties!

  43. gov't isnt the problem, script kiddies are by laxguy · · Score: 1

    You people that are defending this need to realize that the problem isn't when the government or other legal body requires data on you. As you've all mentioned cell phone towers have basically the same data available to them and they are easier to subpoena than using your phone. The problem comes when this file gets dumped on every computer that you plug your phone into. What happens when you sync your phone onto a computer that has been compromised by *pick your favorite mal-ware/trojan*. The person that compromised that computer can suddenly have access to that file and then they have all that information. And don't say that it doesn't matter because cell phone companies have that data, because their version of the data is encrypted and protected and not easily accessible. The un-encrypted data from your phone does not enjoy those protections. The big deal about this whole thing is the fact that the file is not encrypted and there can be any number of copies on any number of computers. If apple had simply encrypted this data, and/or left it on the phone (not have it sync to your computer) then this whole problem would have been much smaller.

    1. Re:gov't isnt the problem, script kiddies are by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      The problem comes when this file gets dumped on every computer that you plug your phone into. What happens when you sync your phone onto a computer that has been compromised by *pick your favorite mal-ware/trojan*. The person that compromised that computer can suddenly have access to that file and then they have all that information. And don't say that it doesn't matter because cell phone companies have that data, because their version of the data is encrypted and protected and not easily accessible.

      Morons, bloody, bloody, bloody morons!

      A trojan or virus on your computer isn't going to look for a file containing information where you have roughly been ages ago. It is going to look for passwords, credit card information, bank details, go through your email, use your machine to send spam, or to host child porn if you are really lucky. Nobody bloody cares where you've been.

  44. i like it by applematt84 · · Score: 1

    i like being tracked where ever i go with no privacy.

  45. Opportunistic? by saldate · · Score: 1

    Does this simply seem like an opportunistic lawsuit to anyone else? Anyone with half a technical brain should realize that EVERY cell phone sold since shortly after 9/11 tracks your location, and that you're carriers retain this data... yet another legacy of George W. Bush. The only thing that's different about the iPhone case is that Apple was dumb not to obtain user consent, plus they stored the data in an unencrypted and easily obtainable format. I'm not saying it's right, but if you don't want to be tracked, leave your cell phone, passport, and possibly driver's license (depending upon where you live) at home... and that doesn't even consider the possibility of tracking via city CCTV or other means. What I'd like to see is some actual investigative journalism in the iPhone\Android case, and then watch the panic ensue. If you want to spawn true paranoia, consider that your precious iPhone / Android device might potentially be used to record everything you audibly say or do, text, post to Facebook, etc., and if desired, for those phones that support video conferencing, video of said events... and yes, I own an iPhone 4. If you're truly worried about privacy and the smartphone cases have your stomach in knots, then you're only scratching the surface. This is a systemic problem, not just an iPhone problem.

  46. Why not the US? by Mojo66 · · Score: 1

    Why are other countries looking into it but not the US? Isn't the true problem behind this, that information privacy isn't taken seriously in the US and that therefore companies can spy on their customers without having to fear any legal consequences? Who can blame US companies for doing what is legal in their own country? The solution has to be that information privacy in the US is taken as seriously as in those 'other' countries that are now looking into this 'locationgate'.

    1. Re:Why not the US? by greghodg · · Score: 0

      Yeah you'd think the USA would jump at the chance to launch a knee-jerk investigation into a story that contains so much misinformation that it might as well have come from the Weekly World News.

  47. collecting data without their knowledge? by NemoinSpace · · Score: 1

    If it's without their knowledge, Ummm, facepalm, like,
    how do they know?

  48. The problem is with putting the data in a database by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no problem in getting location data for making a phone call. There is a problem when that data is STORED for as long as you have that device.

  49. The Police Can Do Warantless Cell Phone Searches! by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 2

    >WRONG. LE needs a warrant for anything on your phone. And if LE wants the locations of the cell towers you've used, along with direct triangulation of your position, they can serve a warrant to your provider.

    You are flat out wrong on this, Grasshopper. At least in California, the police can search your mobile phone device without a warrant, according to a recent California Supreme Court decision. Anything on your phone is fair game for the cops without a warrant. I imagine that this will get appealed to the US Supreme Court, but if the rather liberal California court doesn't see a Fourth or Fifth Amendment right here, I can just imagine what Scalia et al.will do.

    --
    Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
  50. slashdot bait by greghodg · · Score: 0

    Wow, all the hysteria and misinformation about this from supposedly well-informed Slashdot readers. I guess you don't need to actually know anything about the subject except what you read on huffington or ars before posting. This entire topic is just flamebait here.

  51. Ridiculous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My god people! Let's fear shark attacks and struck by lightning while we're at it. While we're at it, let's get Cheney to run for president in 2012.

    1. Re:Ridiculous. by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Hey, Cheney in 2012? That's not funny. In fact it borders on a terrorist threat.

  52. Cell tracking by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    I believe cell tracking happened in the 90s and continues today. I remember reading about some legal case where they caught the murder from her cell phone (otherwise it was a perfect crime) and I think the data they used was gathered in the late 90s. Back then it may have only been logged for a short time but now they likely keep it forever.

    I have no issue with the Location framework's tracking system which by design makes it work as well as it does - I'd actually like it if apple published all the wifi data out there -- if you didn't know, there are already services and communities gathering wifi location info. Would be nice to pull up some site and get a google map with all the open wifi networks marked on it. One just can't compete against a dataset generated from iphones and macs moving about.

    I do however firewall apple from sending location data out of my network. The desktops do not need to know where they are. Mac OS has been doing location tracking since they put in the location framework; I think its a cron because I used to notice it every night when it was being blocked.

    I also seem to recall something in the legalese gave apple broad rights to anonymous data. If they missed something I'd think it would be more likely in the stuff for Mac OS X not in the iOS agreement.

  53. Re: "And yes, these kinds of things are necessary" by QuasiSteve · · Score: 2

    And yes, these kinds of things are necessary in a smartphone.

    Remind us again how storing location information (no matter how crude and how irregularly sampled) for extended periods of time, is necessary in a smartphone?

    Let's take what you're saying and apply it to the actual situation.

    You use your phone to send your conversations with people over the air through a series of third party servers -and- your phone stores some of these conversations as 8kHz 8bit.wav files in a location that is not normally accessible and you are not made aware of, for a period no less than several months.

    You wouldn't find that a little bit odd at the very least, apparently unnecessary and wasteful, and perhaps slightly - if not completely - wtf-worthy?

    Your example for GPS specifically sucks because with GPS, there is no transmission of data to servers. The GPS module gets signals from the satellites and uses that to determine where it is just then. I can turn GPS on or off. I can -choose- to use it, or not use it. Typically, unless I instruct the device to do so, it also doesn't log the location information. I say typically because obviously there do exist devices that are specifically made for that purpose. I don't think the iPhone counts as one, though.

    Everybody saying 'Android does this too' (ignoring the differences) or saying it's not so bad because it's your own phone, it's inaccurate, and on the desktop you can enable encryption, are oblivious to the simple question: why log this at all? I've seen no reasonable answer to this as of yet - merely speculation for targeted advertising, but that's all it is; speculation.

  54. Korea by crossmr · · Score: 1

    We can't even use our "Find my iphone" feature here in Korea because the government had it disabled for privacy reasons. I can send a message to the phone, lock it and wipe it, but I can't track it down. There is no opt in for it either as far as I can tell. So collecting and recording this kind of info would certainly upset them.

  55. Frivolous by brkello · · Score: 1

    Seems a bit greedy to me unless they actually have proof that it is sending that data out to anyone. I mean, the phone does have a GPS on it. It is able to connect to cellular and wifi networks which can help narrow down a location. It is obvious the phone knows where it is. Why would you think it doesn't store information. Heck, all cell phones store the last cell towers they were connected to. From that, I can tell you an approximate location as well.

    --
    Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  56. The GPS tracking would make a fine Doctor Who plot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Evil Aliens create an amazing app for the App Store and millions download it.

    Unbeknownst to the iPhone users the aliens use the handy GPS tracking features that no one knows about to home in on the persons using the phone.

    When the predetermined countdown reaches zero all humans within 1 meter of the iPhones are instantly teleported to Plant Z to become slaves of the Empire!

    Bwahahahaha!

  57. Re:The Police Can Do Warantless Cell Phone Searche by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They can search it if it's unlocked. If I can grab your phone off the table and go through your text messages, so can the police. If it's passcoded, it's a locked container. Not plain sight.

  58. Android does not do it too by mjwx · · Score: 1

    Android does this also

    Nope.

    Android has a cache of recently used locations that is overwritten fairly regularly. This information stays on the device. You need root level access to read the data.

    Apple is maintaining a database of locations that extends back for months. This information is transferred off the device. From here, anyone can read the data with a simple application.

    Also, the services that Google uses to track you are opt-in. You have to expressly accept the terms and conditions when install/first use Google applications. Apple did not make it known that they were even doing this.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:Android does not do it too by indiechild · · Score: 1

      You can encrypt the backup that iTunes stores on your computer, so not just "anybody" can read the data with a simple application.

      iOS isn't so different from Android in this instance. Don't let that stop the hate fest, of course.

    2. Re:Android does not do it too by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      The information from the Android device does NOT stay on the device, it is transmitted up to Google several times an hour.

  59. Why did you post this twice. by mjwx · · Score: 1

    But I'll correct you again. Android has a cache of recently used locations that is overwritten fairly regularly. This information stays on the device. You need root level access to read the data.

    Apple is maintaining a database of locations that extends back for months. This information is transferred off the device. From here, anyone can read the data with a simple application.

    Also, the services that Google uses to track you are opt-in. You have to expressly accept the terms and conditions when install/first use Google applications. Apple did not make it known that they were even doing this.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  60. If Google can get slammed by giorgist · · Score: 1

    If Google can get slammed for mearly collecting public view wifi info from open networks,
    and claim they did nothing to that info, I am guessing that Apple can and shoudl get slammed to teh 9th degree.

    A buit of fear might help ... and the only fear that works is if stock holders loose money because of some action.

  61. Wait- This isnt Sony? by gearloos · · Score: 1

    You sure this isnt Sony? jeeze it smells so much like something Sony would do. I guess having a little itunes power rubs off and Apple now is getting Media Company Syndrome. An ailment giving a delusional feeling of importance and power with the desire to make everyone conform... Borgish isn't it....

    --
    "Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
  62. Re:The Police Can Do Warantless Cell Phone Searche by witherstaff · · Score: 1

    I guess the little finger slide to unlock the phone doesn't count? Heck my android even has a little padlock symbol on it.

  63. Is everyone an idiot? by RedBear · · Score: 1

    Events like this make me feel like I might be the only sane, rational, non-retarded person left on the face of the Earth. I see far too many people blowing this off like it's really no big deal at all for your phone to keep your location history for years at a time. The stupidity of this is beyond belief. People are acting like this information isn't dangerous to you because it isn't being stored anywhere except on your own phone.

    What very few people seem to realize is that the biggest threat is not Apple or even the government. The danger comes from criminal elements who can far too easily use this information to make it far easier and safer for them to stalk, rob, murder or kidnap any individual who owns a smart phone. This data can be copied off your phone without your knowledge in a matter of seconds, so you may not even know the information has been stolen from you at any given time.

    The fact that this is only "relative" position information is another idiotic defense. Any fool should be able to take one look at the video posted by the recent researchers and see that a real time interpolation of the data points gives a remarkably accurate rendering of your activities over time. It is certainly more than accurate enough to tell any potential home invader when you are likely to be home, and just as important, when you are likely to NOT be within several miles of your home. Anyone who does not believe that this information is dangerous even to those who are not "high profile" targets is truly naive.

    When I allow apps on my smart phone to track me, I am doing it for a specific purpose and I fully expect that tracking to stop immediately when I quit the app. Allowing tracking in real time is completely different from letting any person or app have access to information about where I was two flipping YEARS ago and every day in between. It is truly insane to have hundreds of millions of individuals carrying around an easily accessible long term cache of their whereabouts for years at a time. It could be beneficial to the user to keep a cache for a week at the most. Three days would be safer. Anything longer than that is simply crazy, and endangers the user.

  64. Android version by kybred · · Score: 1

    Android supposedly has this same info. But my Android phone usually has the wrong location; when I'm at home it shows my location as at work, and vice versa. So if I commit a crime I'll have an iron-clad alibi!

  65. "yet", the word you don't seem to know is "yet" by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

    At least two applications on the phone has access to the data, that would be the application making the log, first is the one making the log, the second is the one keeping it in sync with the desktop.

    The main, public SDK may not publish an iCall for the iApp to real the iSpy database in a friendly widget *ahem* _YET_ *ahem*, but it is not in some walled secret garden of write-only-memory somewhere that is magically inaccessible from the CPU memory bus and file system logic.

    So we _know_ that iOS can and does read that data, we (you) just seem to think it doesn't matter because the data is more easily read by the iSpy/iTunes desktop application and anything else on your main Mac (like, say, an internet music store that would _never_ be interested in your shopping habbits...)

    So Apple has tried to patent/is patenting revealing the data THEY HAVE ALREADY COLLECTED as something that applications might be interested in... hrm... so apps cannot access that data *yet* but clearly Apple intends that they would have "some day soon" like maybe the next SDK update or two mayhaps?

    I _do_ beleive the log file is "an error" as that frog was not supposed to boil yet. I don't think the existence of the code sprung into existence by itself, mind you, but there doesn't seem to be any sort of "log rotate" to limit the size of the file and digest it nicely, so the code probably wasn't supposed to be "on" *yet*.

    Apple isn't afraid the RDF people are going to flee Apple, those guys never do because they are in the RDF and incapable of seeing iEvil as anything but progress.

    But now all the competitors _know_ about iSpy, and the leak happened before the iSpy announcement so "it isn't a feature" they way it would have been when officially announced. Dang, lost the edge. It would have been so sweet to see the other guys scramble to put logs into their phones once Apple had made that "patented feature" an RDS default.

    Besides, by the way, the Google Tracks application does this on Android on purpose, for user controllable and decided intervals, so Apple got caught spying 100% of the time, while Tracks only runs when I want to be tracked....

    But apple filed a patent first even if any such code is now a disavowed mistake, so they'll probably end up "owning" what other people already do.

    So yes, no app uses that data yet, but that's just "yet", meanwhile your phone has been tracking you for however long and the instant they turn it on, or you get a traffic stop, it will be like they turned it on years ago.

    You phone is "pre-tapped", that is, a tap order woudln't "begin collecting the data when the court ordered a warrant", it _began_ (past tense) collecting the data when the batter was installed and the warrant can "peer into the past". Might as well be loggin 100% of your calls today in case someone gets a warrant tomorrow to see what you said yesterday.

    Just like the carnivore email sniffer thing, just because nobody is looking at _your_ data _yet_, it doesn't mean that you should feel okay with the fact that it is already being collected without your knowledge.

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  66. The most amazing thing about this discussion by CheerfulMacFanboy · · Score: 1

    A discussion about patents where nobody claims even the most absurd of "prior art".

    --
    Fandroids hate facts.
  67. "mistake"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One could *maybe* buy Apple's "mistake" claim, if the company hadn't also applied for a patent on this privacy-invading technology. But the patent-pending status really demonstrates this to be a clear, deliberate, and blatant violation of Apple users' privacy. The company should be ashamed.