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You responded selectively, ignoring how he uses download. Let's focus on the essence:

just to try out an artist.

There ya go. There is no current try-before-you-buy except Top40 rotations on pop stations, and they play only singles from a fixed rotation. DJs are a thing of the past, so how does one get exposed to new material?

I do it via eMusic - for a reasonable price, I get n downloads per month, plus free stuff every day. All of it in MP3 format with no DRM. And there's no shortage of indie music freely available on the web - Salon's Audiofile is good for a daily fix, and Insound and Pitchfork have huge amounts of stuff up for grabs. Just the tip of the iceberg.

If there's something from a major label that I want, I either buy it or copy it from an actual, real-world friend who bought it, which IMO is fair use.

Pitchfork
Insound
Epitonic

One of the cool things that Pitchfork has been able to do is translate their on-line success into off-line events as well. We attended the Intonation Music Festival a few weeks ago and it was great. It's encouraging to see other entrepreneurs start with a reasonable investment on the web instead of going broke the traditional way.

The internet has definitely leveled the playing field for the small guy.

...I'm an ardent supporter of independent music. My advice would be to seek out an indie label with good distribution and venue connections - if they can help out with CD packaging/reproduction and access to places to play, you're a few steps ahead of the game. Chances are they'll leave the marketing decisions up to your band for the most part, leaving your band in better control.

The smaller labels know that they have to form partnerships with musicians rather than act as parental figures as the large conglomerates do. If you keep each other happy and manage to make enough money to keep both you /and/ the label going, you have a decent shot of making music a career. Plus, you get to make more of your own decisions concerning direction, growth, etc.

I'm very fond of insound.com

I'll just point out that this is just another reason to buy vinyl. You can always rip it back onto your computer, iPod, etc.

I have yet to see a copy protected CD from any of the labels I usually buy from - as a matter of fact, many of them are making their music available as ultra high qualioty Lame VBR MP3s through eMusic.

More people need to check out the free mp3s at Epitonic and Insound to get a taste of what's available from indie labels - virtually all of it in unprotected formats, and virtually all of it far better than the slop the major labels dump out on Clear Channel. Check out The Streets - "Fit But You Know It" at Insound - catchiest single I've heard for years! Great stuff!

Thought we already covered this topic. Alas...

In my attempts to kick my Kazaa habits, I find that many artists offer mp3s on their homepage. Also, try some of these sites:

• Epitonic
• Insound
• eMusic NOTE: Subscription service
• Warp Record's Bleep NOTE: Must pay for mp3s, but they're very high quality codes -- for you lame monkies out there, @ -aps)

Most mp3s available on the 'Net are from Indie groups. Definately check out band webpages, and label webpages (ex. Kill Rock Stars always is offering up the goods)

Don't be scared of buying cds though. It's by far the best way to aquire mp3s.

cos basically we want to reform it, so we can start actually buying CD's and so on again, right ?

Look... there are thousands of independant labels out there putting out music that's just as good as (and often better than) the major labels. Not only that, but there are plenty of sites where you can learn about this independent music. The All Music Guide covers quite a few non-RIAA bands with tiny distributions. If you're not sure which bands are part of the RIAA, there's the RIAA Radar, which will tell you which bands/albums send money to the RIAA. As far as distribution, Forced Exposure, In Sound, and several other outlets (including the music download services) offer tons of RIAA-free music.

Personally, I'm very taken with these labels:
IDEA Records
Beta-Lactam Ring
MEGO Records
Drag City Records

Here's my issue. The RIAA will die a slow, painful death. This is inevitable. Don't worry about it. Small labels are just as capable of recording, producing, packaging and (to a lesser extent) distributing music as the RIAA. If you, as a consumer, will do a little research, you can find a whole world of underground music -- sure it isn't on the commercial radio stations or MTV, but it will play in the same CD player that all your RIAA CDs play in. Nobody's really being locked out. It is very different in the software industry, but you all know abou that...

If everyone started downloading legal music instead, we would make short work of the RIAA, because people would start buying CDs from indie bands, and seeing their shows, instead of enriching the major labels every time you buy a Britney or New Kids CD. The RIAA would also have no cause to complain - these music downloads are not copyright violations because the artists give you permission to download them.

Probably the best known site for downloading MP3s is of course MP3.com . See especially their genre index . Click the link. You will be quite astounded at how many genres there are.

Unfortunately the website usability of MP3.com is atrocious, and their streaming audio seems to be buggy - I can't get it to work in either Explorer or Mozilla. To get an MP3 file to download to your hard drive, you have to register, which I'm sure will result in merciless spamming. May I suggest registering with a throwaway email address from spamgourmet ?

The Open Directory Project has Bands and Artists and Styles indices. Not all the artists offer downloads, but the site says they list 48,000 artists and I imagine many of them offer downloads.

There are better sites for hosting MP3s than MP3.com. Some of them allow you to buy the band's CD from the same page as the MP3 download. Among them are The Internet Underground Music Archives, CDBaby, Epitonic.com, Lulu, SoundClick, Matador Records and insound .

Monotonik provides BitTorrents with zip files containing 60 to 100 MP3s apiece available here.

If you prefer the higher quality, patent-free Ogg Vorbis files you can find several download sites here . Ogg Vorbis players are available for many platforms - WinAmp will play them on Windows, and I understand iTunes on Mac OS X supports Ogg now. There are open source Linux ogg players and encoders, even an open source fixed-point decoders for embedded applications where the CPU doesn't have floating point hardware.

There are also peer-to-peer applications for distributing legal music. See Furthur Network and konspire[2b] .

Unfortunately, musicians are often not very good website designers, so poor usability is a significant obstacle to getting music directly from artists' websites. If you're a musician, and you'd like to know how you can improve your website so more people will download your music, please read my article If Indie Musicians Wanted Their Music Heard....

Finally, there is the problem of finding the music that's actually worth listening to. The labels do serve the (somewhat) legitimate purpose of picking out the good from the bad. But we can do that ourselves with legal downloads by using collaborative filtering, for example by downloading our music with iRATE, which you'll find at

Probably the best known site for downloading MP3s is of course MP3.com. See especially their genre index. Click the link. You will be quite astounded at how many genres there are.

Unfortunately the website usability of MP3.com is atrocious, and their streaming audio seems to be buggy - I can't get it to work in either Explorer or Mozilla. To get an MP3 file to download to your hard drive, you have to register, which I'm sure will result in merciless spamming. May I suggest registering with a throwaway email address from spamgourmet?

The Open Directory Project has Bands and Artists and Styles indices. Not all the artists offer downloads, but the site says they list 48,000 artists and I imagine many of them offer downloads.

Better sites for hosting MP3's than MP3.com are Epitonic.com and insound.

If you prefer the higher quality, patent-free Ogg Vorbis files you can find several download sites here. Ogg Vorbis players are available for many platforms - WinAmp will play them on Windows, and I understand iTunes on Mac OS X supports Ogg now. There are open source Linux ogg players and encoders, even an open source fixed-point decoders for embedded applications where the CPU doesn't have floating point hardware.

There are also peer-to-peer applications for distributing legal music. See Furthur Network and konspire[2b].

I'm sure if more people availed themselves of the wide variety of music available for free download, we will make short work of both the RIAA and ClearChannel. Our lives would also be richer for it.

"music nowadays completely SUCKS!!" is your opinion which you definitely have the right to say.

i must say though, that i find the statement wrong and seems to come from someone that fell out of the loop and doesn't "understand" the kids and their music. i am by no means a youngster and i can't say that i have watched mtv or listened to clear channel radio in years. there are many great artists out there and taking the DIY route that make compelling and innovative music. many can be found on such independent labels as:
matador records
desoto records
thrill jockey records
kill rock stars
dischord records

just to name a few, there are many many others. some places to buy independent music and distributors of:
parasol records
southern records
insound

Depends what style of music you like. Some good places to check out are sites like epitonic & insound. They carry or have reviews of lots of good indie stuff, and a wide range of styles.

If you like punk/indie rock/hardcore, check out Dischord, Reptillian, Ebullition, Level Plane, Magic Bullet, Kill Rock Stars, K Records, Drag City, Happy Couples Never Last, Three One G, Load Records, Robotic Empire, Sound Virus, Exotic Fever, Lovitt... There are hundreds more. Most of these labels have MP3s of their bands, so check em out and see if you like em.

If you like metal, check out Relapse or Hydrahead.

Some of my favorite bands (which you should be able to find in the above sites) include Tragedy, Orchid, the Oath, Saetia, Page 99, Usurp Synapse, Q and Not U, Fugazi, Lightning Bolt, Books Lie, Killsadie, Pig Destroyer, Mastodon... and the list goes on. (Note : I didn't check all the links, just typed what I was pretty sure they were. Use google if one you want is broken.)

However, for anyone experiencing such anti-RIAA sentiment, I would point out that some of the finest and most groundbreaking music today is released by labels who are not part of the RIAA. (99.9% of artists ARE involved with ASCAP and BMI, but as I understand it, these organizations are separate from and not quite as evil as the RIAA.)

For example, some of my favorite sources of music are Darla Records, Drag City Records, Teen Beat Records, Matador Records, Merge Records, Misra Records, etc., etc. Many of these record labels are actually NICE to their artists and fair to the consumer (the average cd price is maybe $11-14). Also, online stores like Other Music and Insound do a fairly good job of filtering new non-big-five-media-company music. This is, of course, a small slice of the available pie, focused around my particular listening habits. I know that it is daunting at first to try and find music outside the mainstream that suits you, but you really only need to find a few artists or labels to truly open the flood gates.

My point being, there IS music being made for you that does not diectly suport "the man." Find a record label you like and begin to branch out!

www.insound.com has everything you could possibly need plus some killer vinyl in their "annex"... many mp3s as well.

Joe

If you don't like the RIAA, don't buy their stuff. There are a lot of really great bands on independent labels because of the economics of the music biz. They know they can make just as much or more money (and retain far more creative control) by being on a small label and touring. Shopping may not be quite as convenient because their music is often not carried by the big chain stores. It's worth the extra effort though because, unlike most of what the major labels put out, these bands don't suck.

Some great bands on indie labels include:
Sarge
All Natural Lemon & Lime Flavors
Sarah Shannon (ex-singer from Velocity Girl)
The Dismemberment Plan
Future Loop Foundation
Helium
The Poster Children
Anna Waronker (former singer for That Dog)
Rainer Maria
Glade
The Jeyds

Some online places to shop for indie music include:
Insound.com
Parasol Records
Restless Records (Golden Palominos, They Might Be Giants, Flaming Lips, etc.)
Matador Records (Helium, Pizzicato Five, Bettie Serveert, etc.)
FuturePopShop.com

Go here! Now! I'm not sure about Insound's UK shipping policies, but they frequently have 20% off on vinyl, and I remember a few free shipping specials. Most records are well under US$10. Of course, I just blew my moderator points by posting to this thread, but I just had to jump in there.

just maybe not companies as large as the current ones.

Yeah, and they're called indie labels. Labels like Tree, Matador, Dischord, Touch and Go, et al. These record companies produce artists because they love rock and roll. They sell CDs for US$11 and LPs for US$9. They play at small venues for US$7 a ticket, and the artists respond to their emails. I have recieved shipments from Insound that would make any punk rocker wet his/her pants for under $30. Wake up, people! We will not be any worse off without major labels.

Hi there. Fuck you. Check out Insound for the ill shit. Also, I might add that anyone who thinks radio music is good for anything but a laugh can go pound sand. The indie music scene actually encourages the listener to "pirate" (not my word) their music. That's because most of their money is made from playing live. You know, actually playing their instruments in person for money.

The fact still remains that pop music is what most people listen to.

Well, "popular" is what "pop" is short for. Of course, the term "pop" has been applied to unpopular music with a similar catchy-ness, like Jets to Brazil or Apples in Stereo. The point is not that people listen to crap, but why do they?

There is plenty of choice out there and whether you listen to Led Zeppelin or The Beatles, who mind you, were a pop group still with plenty of fans, is a choice.

Not if listening to indie music is nearly impossible, like it is in most of the 'burbs, and the Midwest in general. I live in Dallas, a no-man's-land for national indie acts. Whereas there's an all-ages show every night at 100 different venues in NYC, we might get one or two a month. How are kids supposed to shake off the influence of crap radio when there are no alternatives?

Marylin Manson and Rob Zombie sure aren't pop [...]

Oh, really? Multi-platinum arists are underground all of the sudden? Everybody's definition of "pop" is different, but come on...

but anti-pop is just as big a market and they are simply cashing in on all the teenaged boys trying to be cool[...]

Fred Bizkit and crew (POD, Linkin Park, et al) are just as popular as Brittney. Real anti-pop (think Fugazi, At The Drive In, underground hip hop, etc) is a tiny, tiny segment of the music market (less than 1%) with a monopoly on quality. Check out Insound for the best bands you've never heard. No, I do not work for them. Get a record player. Go out to local shows and small national acts when they show up in/near your town. Grab your town's alternative music weekly. There's a lot of great tunes out there made during the last five years.

It would be great if the radio had more variety and more challenging music. That's unfortunately impossible right now, with the way the 'biz works. Who knows, maybe we can change that.

take a stand! Kill the RIAA... download limewire now! Put these money hungry weasels to death! http://www.insound.com/machine/guide.cfm

This is a classic example of people's reaction to a product with less intrinsic value than its purchase price. Instead of the Industry spending all its money on making sure Napster doesn't trade any of its works, why doesn't it add value to those works above and beyond the music data, in order to bring consumers back to paying for them? I still buy vinyl, even though I've got about every song I could ever want on mp3. Why? Because there's no comparison between the feeling of holding a shiny black (or red or clear) LP, with all of the elaborate liner notes, distro catalogs, etc. that you get when you buy a real record. Plus, I can get a 7" (aka 45) for two bucks from Insound, with free shipping a lot of the time. Maybe the Industry needs to lower the price of CDs until they make sense to buy because it's easier than stealing them, instead of making them harder to steal, so that the consumer grudgingly buys them. A consumer that buys your product and doesn't like it will eventually figure out a way to get it without paying. The RIAA's problem isn't Napster, it's that they've finally gotten busted for selling a product for about double what it's worth, and offering no more value than stealing it.

Maybe they could allow you to register the CD on the artist or label's site, and get access to better concert seats, discounted merch, "club-only" early ticket sales, etc.

Attention: RIAA- Put the value back in your products, or we'll keep stealing them!

Imagine the wealth of information about actual listener responses a working tip system would collect.

I would suggest that this information be available to everyone- listeners, performers and middle men.

For more on this subject, see Busking as a Form of Online Compensation at InSound.com.

I'd like to see a "tip" button on media players. It's the natural place for it. There could be provisions to auto-tip favorite performers/songs, as well as a tip budget manager built in.

No fuss finding artists this way- like tossing a coin in a hat.

For more on this, see Busking as a Form of Online Compensation at InSound.com

TipJar.com sets up accounts based solely on e-mail addresses. You can cover your tips via check, or through PayPal. There is no charge for the service. For more on this subject, see Busking as a Form of Online Compensation.

Well, Simple Machines doesn't really exist as a record label anymore. But, killing two birds with one stone, you can find them on the web at:

The Machine at Insound

It's recommended reading for those of you who say hilarious things like "bands can make money from touring".

Check out the following labels. They are non-RIAA, big enough to be available on CDnow, and many band on them rock:

dischord(fugazi)
touch&go(GVSB, Shellac, Man or Astroman)
thrill jockey (tortoise, trans am)
desoto (burning airlines)
quarterstick (june of 44)
alternative tenticles (dead kennedies)

That's just scratching the surface.

Also check out:
Insound
Indypopradio
Pitchfork

For indie new, reviews and audio streams.

For info on starting your own, check out the document written by the folks at Simple Machines, an influentual but now defunct indie label.

There's no monopoly on talent! Go out there and support indie rock. Hell, I can barely remember the last major label album I bought! (Ok, ok, it was the new Modest Mouse)

spreer

Insound is the snazziest music shopping site I've come across. I'm not familiar with your progmetalwhatever, but for stuff that I'm interested in (minimalism, ambient, Japanese noise, improv, esoteric older stuff)---as well as basic college radio faves---Insound is great. They have an embedded interface to the (apparently defunct) All Music Guide, so you can learn a lot about artists that you've only heard of in passing.