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Newsflash: sex isn't binary, after all, and intersex people are collateral damage in the pseudochristian jihad against LGBT folk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_i...
http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/...

Hopefully with the election of Trump and the destruction of the Republican and Democrat establishments we can relegate neoconservatism to the ash heap of history, along with the worst of leftist identity politics.

Would you support paleoconservative "bathroom bill" policies that discriminate against people with the disability of having been born intersex?

Quit lying. Here's what you wrote:

they have a vestigial and unexpressed male chromosome

What they have is a body that doesn't respond to testosterone. And guess what - the X chromosome is involved. And that is NOT what you said. "Vestigial male chromosome." You make me laugh. The "Y" chromosome is already much smaller than any other chromosome -50 genes as opposed to 1600 on the X.. Most of the genes that were originally on the Y chromosome are now on the X chromosome. And there are mammals with ONLY XX genes, no Y.

So now we have 2 genes that can turn a female into a male, and one of them is not located on the Y chromosome! How can that be? It turns out that SRY is probably just a facilitator that allows a more critical gene (or genes) to function, by blocking the action of another opposing factor. Can the magic of genetics do the opposite – turn a male into a female? Indeed it can. A gene on the X chromosome (the chromosome one typically associates with “femaleness”) called DAX1 when present in double copy in a male (XY) mouse, turns it into a female.

So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.

In fact, there’s a whole lot more to maleness and femaleness than X or Y chromosomes. About 1 in 20,000 men has no Y chromosome, instead having 2 Xs. This means that in the United States there are about 7,500 men without a Y chromosome. The equivalent situation - females who have XY instead of XX chromosomes - can occur for a variety of reasons and overall is similar in frequency.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. With the brain autopsies and the brain scans, we know that the "wishing" is because the brain acts in part like the opposite sex, because it resembles the opposite sex to a certain degree, in critical areas. There's no "wishing" involved - just a realization that sex and gender both begin and end in the brain.

We have known for decades that male-to-female transsexuals don't get the testosterone signal at 12 weeks. It's simple enough to track - the finger bones are developing at the same time, and testosterone also affects the lengh of the fingers. Less testosterone results in a hand with finger lengths more aligned with women than with men - longer index finger, shorter ring finger. Normal levels of testosterone cause the opposite effect. Extremely high levels of testosterone cause the ring finger to be almost as long as the middle finger.

And where does this testosterone come from? The fetus. If the genes that govern release of testosterone in the gonads fail to do their jobs, the various parts that are developing at that point develop more as female than male - and that includes the brain. And it's entirely due to the fetus' genes.

You said you knew about this stuff, and it's obvious you don't, or your would have known about all the science done since 1995 showing brain development is different in transsexuals because of that failure to release testosterone as the brain cells start dividing like crazy. The testes will most likely function to produce testosterone at other critical stages, otherwise - when they don't, you end up with a baby that for all intents and purposes is a female, even if it's xy.

You're allowed to have your own opinion, but you are not allowed to have your own set of bs facts, and use them to insult transsexuals, including myself, by implying that we "wish" to be the opposite sex, without any biological or genetic basis, when in fact it's those very genes that fail to send the "make testosterone" signal at a critical time of development.

Less than 0.1% of births are intersex / ambiguous genitalia / ambiguous sex.

Said another way, more than 99.9% of births are male or female.

http://www.isna.org/faq/freque...

I'm pretty sure I don't want to know the answer to this, but what exactly is "ambiguous genitalia" and how many people actually have it?

It's called intersexed, and here is some stats and more information on it. For years, doctors would just say "well, we can't tell, so take your pick boy or girl, and then the kid grows up and says 'WTF?' " because it was an arbitrary choice.

For some people, gender identity is a little more complicated than "penis or no penis" -- I've known a couple of trans people over the years, and once had a co-worker who began the process after I'd known him as 'he' for several years.

Trust me, nobody would go through all of that stuff (the reaction of people, the hormones, the discrimination, the cost, the upheaval to your life, the surgeries, people telling you you're going through a phase) unless they were REALLY certain that was what they needed.

I won't claim to understand it fully, or even be able to explain it well. But I do know these are real things, and that the people going through them have to deal with a lot of stuff which I sure as hell wouldn't wish on anybody.

I started using gender appropriate language, long before this PC business became the scourge it is today. My motivation was that it did not seem appropriate to to use 'he' or 'his' in situations where gender was not relevant.

Often 'he' is used in a phrase that clearly applies to everyone in a group, so we end up with phrases that apply to an individual, just look at rules applying to multi player games.

Also I don't see the point of mentioning gender unless it is relevant to the discussion, so using 'he/she' mentions 2 genders. What if the individual was born with no genitalia, some people are, so to be politically correct we should not exclude them - so now we need to use 'he/she/it'. But what about people with characteristics of both male & female (but we should not use the word female as its last 4 letters are 'male' - if we are to object to using fireman on the basis that the last 3 letters are 'man') the mind boggles. If you do any research on the gender statistics of babies, you will find that a small but significant number of people are born not clearly of either gender, or that they are born of apparently one gender but naturally transform into the other.

"Consider the captain of a warship, his primary responsibility is keep afloat. He will be very conscious of this when faced with a possible engagement with superior forces."

Clearly this would apply to most, if not all captains, regardless of gender. so it would be better written as:

"Consider the captain of a warship, their primary responsibility is keep afloat. They will be very conscious of this when faced with a possible engagement with superior forces."

but not the following, as it implies that warships each have several captains or that it might not apply when a warship only has one captain, at any rate it looks clumsy:

"Consider the captains of warships, their primary responsibility is keep afloat. They will be very conscious of this when faced with a possible engagement with superior forces."

but the following is even more clumsy:

"Consider the captains of warships, his/her primary responsibility is keep afloat. He/she will be very conscious of this when faced with a possible engagement with superior forces."

///////////////

Most people are totally unaware, that a small but significant proportion of people are born neither clearly female nor male. Also some people are born as 'clearly' female and change into males at puberty. Of course which gender you identify with is controlled by your brain, and this might be at odds with your physical characteristics - this is more widely known, so I won't do additional research here.

ttp://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003269.htm
[...]
If the process that causes this fetal tissue to become "male" or "female" is disrupted, ambiguous genitalia can develop. The genitalia makes it difficult to easily identify the infant as male or female. The extend of the ambiguity varies. In very rare instances, the physical appearance may be fully developed as the opposite of the genetic sex. For example, a genetic male may have developed the appearance of a normal female.
[...]


http://www.isna.org/articles/ambivalent_medicine
[...]
Frequency of Intersexuality

Aside from the apparent presumption that “normalizing” surgeries are necessarily good, I suspect that ethicists have ignored the question of intersex treatment because like most people they assume the phenomenon of intersexuality to be exceedingly rare. It is not. But how common is it? The answer depends, of course, on how one defines it. Broadly speaking, intersexuality constitutes a range of anatomical conditions in which an individual’s anatomy mixes key masculine anatomy with key feminine anatomy. One quickly runs into a problem, however, when trying to define “key” or “essential

... doesn't mean they need to deal exclusively with binaries.

TFA alludes to this issue with the "gallery of misidentifications", but doesn't get as far as asking surely the most important question: what exactly does this software claim to determine? It's clearly not "biological sex", because you can't determine that from a photo (even a full-body naked photo) -- what about the 1% of people who are born intersex? And it's definitely, definitely not gender, which you could only ascertain by asking that individual.

Whilst one potential application mentioned (analysing crowds for marketing purposes) seems vaguely sensible, any system using photos to try and identify an individual's gender is reactionary, oppressive and doomed to failure.

There is the issue of what makes a person gay, straight, or bi.

It goes beyond that. Unlike what most people think not everyone is either male or female. Some people are born with body parts that are "male" and "female". Genetically females are said to have two X Chromosomes, XX, while males have an X and a Y, XY. However some people are born with XXY, XXXY, and XXXXY karotypes. These people are said to have ambiguous genitalia and are called Intersexuals. The more commonly known name for them is hermaphrodites. I don't know but the South African female athlete who's been in the news because of the question of her sex, with some saying she's not female, may be one.

Falcon

You personally might not encourage traditional gender roles, but the culture around you, including friends, relatives and the media, probably does.

Probably, and with good reason. Research such as this and similar indicate that gender identity is more biological than cultural.

Unfortunately there's still so little research done on the more outrageously rare (we think) Intersex conditions, often because of sheer emberressment. Think how terrible it must be to be a self-fertilising hermaphrodite. Or to be a really spectacularly gorgeous-looking girl, who at age 17 or so finds out she is actually genetically male but with Complete Androgen Insensitivity (hence 100% female-looking rather than the 90-something most women are).

Or worse, those women born with 5-alpha-reductase-deficiency, who turn into guys late in puberty. Though many 5ARD cases are male-brained so it's a dream come true rather than a nightmare. Or maybe a guy with CAH (Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia) who finds out he's actually genetically female. Or neither 46xy (male) or 46xx (female) but 47xxy (Kleinfelter). Have you had your karyotype checked lately?

Yes, it's fine to make jokes about people like that - unless you're one of them, and have to deal with something like Ideopathic Partial Sex Reversal, meaning "well, it's a good job you've always thought you were a lesbian trapped in a male body, as your body isn't male any more. Not quite fully female either, but we can fix that surgically now.". 9 Cases I know of. Including me. Worst thing is, I'm no longer lesbian. Something to do with vassopressin receptors we think.

You know some readers will think I'm joking (don't blame them) or perhaps just crackers (don't blame them either). But we have the photos, blood tests etc. And may I refer everyone to the Intersex Society of North America for more details on various of the more common Intersex conditions. There are hundreds.

Sex is just a like/dislike thing, one among many. It's not worth this central role people, specially GLBTs, see in it.

OK, I don't want to troll, but I do want to inform you of something that you probably are not aware of. The Tomato in the GBLT sandwich stands for Transgendered. That also encompases Intersex or what most people like to (incorrectly) refer to hermaphrodites. We get lumped in with the "gays" because we get discriminated against just like them. DOMA? Yep, now we can't marry. Adoption? We'll see.

Hey, life isn't fair. The big difference is that we get to understand just how unfair that is from a very early age. The rest get to learn during puberty when they usually just decide to hide in the closet. We've already accepted it.

Let me tell you, when you have a condition such as this that can dominate your social outlook you tend to have it as a "defining characteristic" of your personality whether you like it or not. I'm try not to be political about things; I don't really want to care. Other people care. Other people want to define me by what I am. I'm sure that the other GBLT individuals get defined once they leave the closet. That's just the way things work.

I think that bringing this into WoW is silly. I don't bring this up because I really don't think it matters. I can, however, understand why people are making this an issue. They have been defined and descriminated and now they are vocal. More power to them, I guess. Maybe they'll change the world. ...or not. It is just a game.

You know what. You are absolutely right. It really isn't worth this. Maybe people like you can convince the rest of the world that it isn't worth the descrimination. Do that and the vocal GBLT groups might just not have anything to complain about. I'd be just fine with that.

LFG?

Gradually, men begin to disappear as old ones die and no new ones are born to replace them, until finally Earth is entirely populated by women.

Actually this could help save humans because as it is now the humans male is headed for extinction anyway... Generally what makes a human a male is the X chromosome. Most, not all (more explained later), humans have two sex chromosomes, either an X and a Y chromosome or two X chromosomes with females having two Xs. The SRY gene on the Y chromosome acts like a switch that controls male sexual differentiation. However the gene is decaying and will disappear.

The exceptions mentioned above are intersexuals commonly called Hermaphrodites. There are different types of intersexuals with different karyotypes. Some have the "normal" XX or XY but other may have XXY, XXXY, or XXXXY. Most intersexuals born with ambiguous genitalia go through Genital Plastic Surgery. However, no matter how they're medically treated and reared as children many don't fit into "normal" society and some may be considered "homosexual", gay or lesbian because they had their gender surgically altered, said ambiguous genitalia may include a larger than average clitoris or a smaller than average penis.

Gender, and especially gender identity, is in the mind. Sex may not be, but gender is.

You do realize what the cure for gender identity disorder is, right? Letting transfolk undergo treatment so that all the parts of them finally match up? Everything up to and including shock treatment has been tried before and none of it has worked.

But Klinefelter's does make someone quite a bit more feminine, even if they aren't a full woman, as you term it.

ISNA: http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency provides a stunningly different set of statistics.

And does it matter to this discourse if she does have a penis?

While I don't know for sure if I am a chimera, I was born with XX/XY sex chromosomes, something I only found out in my early 20s.

For many of us born this way we don't appear to be completely male or female and like most I was surgically "repaired" very soon after birth. This means I had what appeared to be testicles removed, testicles which MAY have permitted me to have children one day. Part of my body was stolen because I looked different. I was raised female, always felt that didn't quite fit, and it took me a lot of messing through courts to obtain my birth records. As I am now I have to settle with knowing where I fit originally, why I am like I am, and can accept living as a mostly normal female. By nature however, I was born part male part female. That's me. The chance to live and develop naturally was stolen from me.

It's fucked. Science continues to find so many variations on human development but society so often manages to force decisions on people. How odd that I was considered unnatural enough when I was born that doctors decided surgery was the only acceptable option, when my birth and very existence is just one more facet of nature.

For more info on how intersexed kids (chimeric or any other variation) are treated, see isna.org

If you think Circumcision is bad how would you like to Loose the whole thing?

Yes they take and do whatever they want to babies - including giving them Social Security numbers. By doing so they are the property of the state. Without one they can not take the child away from you when you ask if it weird to feel arousal when you nurse. Of course the state of Michigan was just protecting the child from sexual abuse when the mother was breast feeding.

Stupid but true tricks that mindless government does in the name of protecting you. And you wonder why the paranoids of /. are paranoid?

Ratting 4 - Just blowing off steam.