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> Nobody with a brain is going to go looking for a BIOS and try and install the Phoenix browser on their chip,

Yes, just because you don't, doesn't mean other people won't. In fact, Phoenix sells a Web Browser in the bios. This is why Phoenix (the company) would go after Phoenix (the gecko based browser), and not Phoenix Mail and Phoenix (the science software)

> that the people who have created the Phoenix internet web browser change the name of their product.

Which Phoenix internet web browser? The one Phoenix makes, or the one that Mozilla makes?

> There is no likelihood of confusion between the Phoenix browser and your BIOS products.... It bears no relation to your products.

See the confusion now?

> The Phoenix browser does not even make money. It is an open-source product.

True, but if Phoenix doesn't project it's trademarks, then it loses them, and more hostile people than a few open source developers can take advantage.

And Phoenix has also been used in the area of web browsers. Perhaps the Mozilla.org developers should look at what is and isn't trademarked before chosing names, eh?

One question:

Why does this seem like nonsense to you? Phoenix Technologies and Mozilla's Phoenix both make browsers [1] and [2]

Seems like quite a bit of confusion can be gleamed. Perhaps try looking up information before you decide to spam inboxes that they'll probably ignore anyways.

> Or is there a selective method of choosing so-called infringers?

No, it's just that Phoenix Mail is not a web browser.

Phoenix, while primarily a BIOS company, also has sold a web browser for a long time.

But the problem is that Phoenix also makes web browsers

Sounds like a good trial case to me.

> Why they would be so nice to sting into this one only project?

Because Phoenix Technologies also makes a browser. If Mozilla had made a science simulation software called Phoenix, I'm sure there wouldn't have been a problem.

Trademark law doesn't always depend on who invented the word first. It's mostly about who uses it in a particular field first. Broadly computers, and specifically, browsers. Here is Phoenix's browser, and Mozilla/AOL/TimeWarner's browser.

Seems that a potential Phoenix customer could get confused.

That's right. It's called "firstview connect", and it actually runs an embedded Linux kernel (that's what the page says, anyway).

What are the chances of Phoenix (the embedded browser) to be actually based on Mozilla? I think Phoenix (the company) is right asking Phoenix (the project) for the name change, but they should do it very, very politely. Like an open letter asking to please change the name. Otherwise they'll look like a bunch of hypocrites when they go ahead and use Phoenix (the really good browser) in Phoenix (the BIOS).

You know, the name does get confusing when talking about this...

Ah, but get your facts straight. Phoenix (the company) isn't just in the buisness of BIOS's. They've also made a browser for a number of years.

In the case of a trial, I'm pretty sure that Phoenix Technologies would win quite easily.

I guess you've never heard of Phoenix FirstView Connect.

This sounds like a strong case of infingement to me against the Phoenix (as in, Phoenix, the gecko based browser) developers.

Use Phoenix Technology's handy user feedback page and let them know what you think of them bullying our open source project:

If we all throw a stink, maybe they'll back down.

Legally, the Phoenix browser does not infringe on Phoenix Technologies' trademark any more than the University of Phoenix, the City of Phoenix (or even the City of Phoenix). However, notice they said "The kind folks over at phoenix.com" - Phoenix Technologies has every right to be unhappy about about the Phoenix browser, and if they have politely asked the name to be changed, then this really isn't a legal issue. The Phoenix browser can be renamed simply to be nice.

IANAL, and I have no idea what I'm talking about. This is Slashdot after all. :-)

Isn't there a limit to what you can claim as infringement? If they were making their own BIOS chips and calling them "Phoenix", I could understand. But AFAIK, Phoenix Technologies doesn't make web browsers.

Yes, they do.

I've NEVER seen a computer with Phoenix bios.

Heard of the "Award Modular BIOS"? That's a Phoenix BIOS as well.

http://www.phoenix.com/en/products/firstview+conne ct/default.htm

From the site: "Providing industry-leading, standards-based support such as HTML 4.0, CSS 2.0, DOM 2,0, Javascript 1.4 and Flash 4 with a small code size, FirstView Connect was designed specifically for the emerging Information Appliance market and is ideally-suited for adding new value to both traditional and next-generation digital devices."

In short: It's a small-footprint web browser. <sarcasm>Gee, that's *totally different* than the Mozilla project's Phoenix, which is a small-footprint web browser.</sarcasm>

Hrmmm...that does add a bit to the mix. But their words are ``designed specifically for the ... Information Appliance market and is ... suited for ... digital devices.''

They're embedding the thing---a very different operation from building an end-user application for a general-purpose computer. (Would you consider embedding Phoenix? :-) Now the interesting points are:

• Their trademark says nothing about the HTML, &c., part of their output
• They call it FirstView Connect, not Pheonix, the embeddable browser
• When did Phoenix-the-browser start up vs. when did Phoenix-the-company start making HTML-enabled embeddable goodies?

  Google finds nothing for ``firstview connect 1'' (or 1.0), the earliest to turn up is 2.0 in a Real Networks press release dated 1 November 2001.

  Phoenix-the-browser released 0.1 all of two months ago (September 2002), but there's a reference to a (likely unrelated) ``Phoenix browser'' dated 6 January 2000. (It's about half-way down the page.) If anyone has cause to gripe, it's those folks!

I still claim there's zero point zero chance of the products being confused in the minds of their customers, in either of the two completely-separate target markets. And trademark protection is supposed to be about confusion and mis-perception, not attempted ownership of a word.

To be told more than anyone but a trademark lawyer would want to know, check out the USPTO's trademark page, or their FAQ.

The question of ``trademarks for competing products'' is addressed in Trademark Acceptable Identification of Goods and Services Manual , which lists all the different categories which will be considered for registration, from `Abacuses' to `Wholesale travel agencies'. (What, no zippers? :-) They've got five (5) subcategories of `Computer cursor control devices'---go look it up.

The one that looks closest to Phoenix, the browser, is

Computer software for accessing information directories that may be downloaded from the global computer network

With that background, we can now check out Phoenix(the bozo)'s site.

Their full name is Phoenix Technologies, giving absolutely no clue as to what they actually make or do. We find mondo marketing buzzwordmanship (``Connect with Phoenix Technologies for Strategy2003'' ``undisputed device-enabling and management software leader'', &c.). The divisions listed on that front page are

OEM/ODM
System Builder
Distributor/Reseller
Software Developer

Searching on ``Phoenix Technologies'' turns up three entries. two of which are still in use (``live''), with serial numbers

• 2625542, and
• 2484133

(The raw entries (not the links above) also include:

Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TECHNOLOGIES" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN

Thus, they build stuff no normal human would ever go looking for, so only a geek would have to ``care for the differentiation'', which is why it counts. Any conflict between the two Phoenixes is purely in the minds of the greedy.

That said, of course, ramming it down their throats in a court of law is a lot more costly than a name change. However, if they could find a lawyer to write a letter pro bono, it might be enough to do the job.

I certainly hope the browser folks give the letter a try.

The webpage of FirstView Connect 2.0 clearly states that it includes a browser, with Flash and Java and JavaScript.

And about the modem and recovery thingy: I hope it includes a LAN connection with PPPoE/DHCP/fixed IP addresses. Otherwise I would have problems to connect to anywhere.

Of course, if it's more an information appliance, then typically a ISP will hand yout those, and it will be adopted to the ISPs networking standards.

That said, the latest PhoenixBIOS does support booting from a USB storage device.

New and experienced users alike face some tough hurdles when trying to get running on a new computer. From connecting to the Internet to learning about and managing their PC. How do they get started? What do they need? How can they get these essential tools? Usually, it takes a computer expert to navigate the Internet and locate, access and install the latest Internet technologies for communication, entertainment, education and business. Most users don't even know what they're missing.

automatically packaged and installed

An 18 month old Phoenix press release

talks about 'Audio Visual Intellectual Property technology'

AVIP looks dusty and looks as though would require wide industry support from hardware manufacturers and it doesn't yet have that...

While trawling through Phoenix's site, do be sure to check out the link to inSilicon %^/

.vortex

I'm glad more people are beginning to realize that headless operation capability is a great asset to people who have to manage UNIX systems, and that having hardware support for such management is critical. Most UNIX systems vendors (such as Sun) have had this for years now.

However, my first impression of this card is "too little, too late."

First, as an earlier poster pointed out, it's ISA only, not PCI (and server-class motherboards supporting ISA are quickly becoming extinct).

Second, look at that card! It's frigging huge! It looks more like a FPGA prototype; I'm sure the designers could have it converted to a single chip ASIC and make the card 75% smaller.

Third, the last thing many of us who are maintaining machines with 1 or 2 rack unit heights is another card to try to fit in there. Some of us would like to use what little room we have for things like Gigabit Ethernet cards.

Finally, I'm not sure there will be much need for this in a few months. Award (now Phoenix) has a gorgeous ServerBIOS (which Intel is using on all of its new server motherboards) which supports serial console support. We're using one of their motherboards in all our new systems (I believe that VA Linux Systems uses them too) and we think they kick ass.

However, even serial console support isn't perfect. After all, how do you send the three-finger salute over a serial line?

There's more to this story...
Phoenix has been working on putting some kind of internet service called Phoenixnet built into the BIOS. It seems like the kind of thing you'd want in a dedicated web appliance, but I don't know if the two are related.

http://www.phoenix.com/phoenixnet/phoenixnet.html

The situation is much worse than the summary implied. Advertisements would occur not just at boot time. According to the ZDnet article, "an Internet Service Provider like AOL could theoretically put its sign up icon directly on the desktop of any PC that uses the Phoenix start-up software." In other words, the message would not just be at boot-up. While Linux users would presumably not get such an icon, the situation for MS users is scarier than other posters have realized. I've already sent a complaint to Phoenix and praise to AMI.

Company Contact
Toni Goodrich
Phoenix Technologies Ltd.
(408) 570-1000
toni_goodrich@phoenix.com

Public Relations
Kristin Jones
Walt & Company Communications
(408) 496-0900
kjones@walt.com

Be nice, but let 'em know how you feel about this BS.

The Phoenix web site gives their main E-mail contact as toni_goodrich@phoenix.com

may the lord have mercy on her soul...

Here's an e-mail addresses for Phoenix. If you use Phoenix's BIOS, or intend to in the future, sending them a polite and thoughtful message expressing your feelings is a probably a good idea. However, I wouldn't bother e-mailing them if you have no intention of ever buying their products.

Anyways here an email contact for the company that they listed on this web page:

Toni Goodrich
Phoenix Technologies Ltd.
toni_goodrich@phoenix.com

Here's an e-mail addresses for Phoenix. If you use Phoenix's BIOS, or intend to in the future, sending them a polite and thoughtful message expressing your feelings is a probably a good idea. However, I wouldn't bother e-mailing them if you have no intention of ever buying their products.

Anyways here an email contact for the company that they listed on this web page:

Toni Goodrich
Phoenix Technologies Ltd.
toni_goodrich@phoenix.com

... so it's unclear whether switching to Award would save you from the demons. See this for proof of ownership, but there's no doubt other places as well.

Basically with a Sun machine, you can attach a console to the back and watch the boot process, right from the point where the PROM detects no keyboard present and redirects the console to the serial line. It doesn't matter whether or not you have a video card present for the machine to boot.

On a PC, depending on the BIOS you can or can't get away without a keyboard being present. However none (with the exception of the one I'm going to mention) will let you boot without a video card present. If the card is there then that is what will be your console.

Now people were talking about using the SERIAL CONSOLE directive, or just running getty on the serial line, to redirect it and thats fine, provided the machine boots that far. With a Sun, if it fails to boot because of a problem with the hardware, or misconfiguration in the PROM (BIOS equivalent) you still have console access. On a PC you don't.

Now Phoenix have just brought out a new BIOS which will let you redirect the console to a serial line in the same way as a Sun does, i.e. you can get to the BIOS from the serial line, edit parameters and force a powercycle. This is an immensely cool idea. In the ISP I worked in (one of the largest in Europe) we used vast amounts of PC based UNIX machines (OpenBSD, NetBSD and FreeBSD) none of which we could do this with.

Check out http://www.phoenix.com/platform/ser verbios.html and scroll down to the bit about Serial Remote Console.

HTH HAND

Joe
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