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You took the words out of my mouth! I'm another satisfied Karma owner and am quite disappointed by this news. Especially since the Karma 2 (mentioned here and here) never came to pass and now it probably never will. I remember the days when Karma was still fresh on the scene and the Rio devs would hang out in forums to listen to feature requests and help people out. The Karma couldn't have been more perfect: features (FLAC, ogg vorbis, cross-fade, excellent battery life, killer base) form factor (yes it passes the one-hand test), value (20 GB for under $250 at one point). Sure it was a niche player, but it will be a tough niche to fill again.

Yeah, you have to use either RMM or RMM Lite (a java based app, transfers and controls the Karma over the Ethernet port in the dock) to transfer/edit files. Also, if you want to transfer non-music files you have to use "Rio Taxi". Not much experience with it (since my Karma is full) so I have no idea how well it works.

MSC support *was* promised in a future firmware update, but apparently making sure all of the RioDJ features work properly is taking some time (or it's been dropped, who knows).

I like Rio Music Manager, though. It's a very stable app, doesn't run anything in the background (ala iTunes), and in general doesn't do anything I don't want it to do. It's not the huge "Buy Music/Sort Music/Play Music/Play Movies" mess that iTunes is (I hate large programs :\ )...

Hope that's helpful, more information on the Rio players can be found at Riovolution (forums are useful, read/post on them before buying any DAP).

There's a similar community for the iRiver (descent little player, MSC compliant) somewhere, but I seem to have lost it. Perhaps google can help you.

Pros

Plays Ogg, FLAC, MP3 and WMA. Everything I own is in Ogg and FLAC (rip everything with EAC) and until recently, the Karma was the only HDD that supported both.

Gapless playback (important for mixes). I don't know of any other player that has it. iPod has very short gaps ( Long battery time. I routinely get 10-12 hours playing Ogg. MP3 and FLAC time are longer (less CPU intense).

Good community/developer support. The forums there have been great (recently, there's been a bit of a flame war regarding the next-gen Karma).

5-band parametric equalizer. The sound out of this thing is great, and the equalizer is very good.

Good firmware/user interface. It's very easy to edit playlists, select music, change equalizer settings, etc. There have been at least 4 firmware updates since release (one of them adding gapless support for Ogg).

Size. I like the square form factor - it's very pocketable. Wish it were a bit less thick.

Iffy build quality. Two big problems: HDD lockups and broken scroll wheels. I've had both (had to replace the unit on the scroll wheel, did the "thump on a desk" fix for the HDD lockup), but I also think the hardware issues have been somewhat overstated. I've had iPods die too - I think it's somewhat par for the course with first-generation HDD players. I expect the next-gen Karma to be a little tougher.

Scroll wheel. I don't like it. It's prone to breaking and it's a little awkward. You can mostly ignore it except for playlist editing. The nipple works fine for most day-to-day stuff.

Have to use Rio Taxi/Rio Music Manager to move music/files to and from the device. The latest version of Windows Media and WinAMP can see the Karma, but the Karma still suffers from a lack of MSC support. Historically, it's proprietary database format has made it a lot faster, but everyone is moving to MSC.

I like the Karma a lot and am eagerly awaiting the Chroma. But I will compare it against the iAudio M5 and iRiver products. Right now, those come up a little short on the features I use the most, but they've been getting better each generation. If Rio doesn't come out with a next-gen soon, iRiver and iAudio will pass it by. iPod/iTunes is nice, but I don't want/need FairPlay/AAC or crappy MP3. I want my Ogg/FLAC!

While the unit does have a history of locking up, this was both a problem of between the Hitachi drive's firmware and the Karma's firmware. As of FW 1.25 (I believe) Rio believes they have completely solved problems from their end. Thus, if you have a fully updated Karma and the drive is still flaking out, it's probably Hitachi's fault (still Rio's fault for choosing Hitachi, but at least you know what's going on).

Firmware upgrades are regrettably only upgradeable through USB using Windows. However, once you update the firmware yourself, Rio Music Manager Lite (the java version mentioned) works perfectly fine through Ethernet, and is quite nice actually. The latest firmware available is v1.68, obtainable from the Karma support site. As a review though, this kinda sucked because it doesn't mention other niceties of the Karma. Battery life is rated at about 15 hours (12 if you use oggs exclusively). Gapless playback is possible with LAME-ripped MP3s and all Oggs. The karma is perfectly capable of using DHCP, not sure why the reviewer wanted to go through the hassle of a static assignment.

Riovolution is a great site for Rio owners, containing FAQs and a useful Forum. In fact, Rio employees post on the website from time to time, though obviously in an unofficial manner. That site was the originator of the "smack your karma" solution if you ran into the same problem as the user above did (short reason: sticky hard drive. Check the FAQs).

Personally, I love my Karma. I got it at Bestbuy with warranty in case it died, so I don't have to worry about that. I have yet to experience ANY hard drive issues (upgraded the firmware as the first thing I did), and it's been working great so far. I've been using it for about 5 months now with no problems. My personal rating of the product would be 6-7/10 because of the reliability issues with the product (new units don't seem to be bad, but it's hard to get accurate numbers). Without reliability problems I'd give it a 9/10.

That makes two of us. My first one lasted for about six-ish months before kicking the bucket - died the oh-so-common "stuck hard drive" problem, where customer service tells you to smack the unit to get it to work again. Ummm, no. Returned to the retailer under the service plan for a new one. Had the new one about two months before the same thing happened. RMA'ed it back to Digital Networks, got a refurb. Had the refurb less than five days before the exact same problem reared its head. That's Karma #3, and it went back to Digital Networks last week while I await a fourth unit.

Same here. Partly geek-factor, partly because I wanted true stereo and better compression at higher bitrates, yadda yadda yadda. Regardless, I have pretty limited options for a small-form-factor, high-capacity player that suits my needs, so for the time being I'm stuck waiting for another refurb unit. Eventually, I may just re-rip my entire collection and start over with a different codec.

Will the Rio let you open it to change the battery without destroying it? Does it have the iPod problem of "oh the battery died. throw it away and buy another" ?

The Karma doesn't have that problem, so Rio America doesn't have a replacement plan for fear of worrying prospective customers. Rio Japan however has a replacement plan going just in case, net cost of about $40 USD.

The only problem the Karma has had with any real frequency is the hard drive dying. But this is usually attributable to having the unit dropped/jarred/etc (for instance one guy went through five players and was griping. After a while everyone found out that he had it hard mounted into his car with no sort of shock absorption for the unit. Maybe an iPod would handle it better, maybe not.)

And something else that I haven't seen posted about the Karma is gapless playback. I believe it's currently the only unit to support that, which is nice for live recordings.

It has its drawbacks too (can't be seen like a USB drive natively, no folder support, no real case included) but has better sound (supposedly) than the iPod, cheaper than iPod, a _great_ playing interface w/ a very intuitive 'DJ' app, very solid feel, OGG/FLAC, and some very active developers that not only put out firmware updates on a frequent basis with all sorts of nifty things (I think they just put out beat matching. For when you're driving or something and want 'Music With an Insane Beat' or something like that) but actually participate in the forums (Riovolution is one) that are around.

Only had mine for about 2 weeks, but you'd have to cut my hand off at the wrist to get it away from me.

(Oh yeah, and it comes with a set of Sennheiser earbuds. No explanation needed there, I'd think)

I started reading these comments carefully while I was waiting for my Karma to ship (I live in New Zealand).

The conclusion that I draw is that if your hard drive / wheel / stick is going to fail, it will probably do so in the first couple of weeks. this would be during the "burn-in phase" when you transfer 13 GB, listening to it constantly (note: whilst on busy road biking is not a good idea), charge and discharge ect...

Mine has been going strong since Jan 22 (cross fingers / touch wood).

This poll tells part of the story, but has a rediculously small sample size (74).

They're having troubles.

A lot of people are getting Hard Drive errors with their Karmas. I just got mine back from Warranty replacement (after a month-and-a-half wait and plenty of complaining). Mine broke after 2 weeks of use. Apparently, according to the folks at the Riovolution Forum a lot of people have had this problem (in the same time frame) and are currently going through Hell getting a replacement. I'm surprised I got mine so quickly.

Aside from that, I'm liking the Karma a lot. I just hope my replacement doesn't crap out the same as the first one did. If it does I'm aiming for an iPod.

Other than that, RMML (Rio Music Manager Lite) is a Java-based app that syncs up with the Karma over a dock that can be connected via ethernet. The coolness of this being that it's completely platform independent, and will run on any system that can run Java, including my fedora box. Its compatibility to be runnable on Linux is the main reason why I liked this. OGG and FLAC support are just extras. =)

It's very impressive, but I don't think I could listen to it for any length of time.

As for vorbis & ipod, I wouldn't bother. You can pick up a Rio Karma for less than an ipod. They're not perfect but they support Vorbis and Flac, in addition to the usual mp3 and wma. There *have* been hard drive reliability problems, so I'd recommend buying it from somewhere which also supplies an extended warrenty.

Several mainstream mp3 players now support Ogg. The Rio Karma does a perfect job (gapless playback and everything), and most iRiver HD-based players now support it.

Since Ogg already supported by Winamp and almost every Linux piece of audio software, the arguments not to switch are getting thinner.

Despite the annoying DRM conundrums, mp3 was never ready for primetime anyway. Ogg isn't quite perfect yet, but it's capable of improvement, as opposed to mp3, which is essentially a locked standard with alot of inherent (and, at this point) unfixable bugs.

Here's hoping more folks decide to check out "that Ogg thing" they keep hearing about.

this is somewhat of a pain, because it means you have to carry the taxi CD with you if you want to use the handdrive feature.. which means you wont randomly be at a friends house, see some files you want, and transfer them (unless you alwys plan on having the cd with you)

I'm 90% sure my info is correct, unless they fixed this really recently. They have said that they will fix this though

check out riovolution and riovolution forums for some good info

Rio Karma

I haven't used it myself (I rip everything with EAC, so I tend to use my Windows box for storing my FLACs/Oggs), but it gets glowing reviews by Linux users in the Riovolution forums.

not to be funny (i run my iPod on Linux) - but does the Karma play nicely on linux?

I'm not sure 100% of the Rio software is available on Linux, but the Rio itself has a webserver (over ethernet) and can run a rather nice Java client to transfer music and files with. I've also seen post from several users on the riovolution.com website that mention that they are running Linux.

A good FYI and discussion can be found Here

The Rio Karma supports Ogg Vorbis, so please quit your pissing and moaning.

"It shreds the iPod in every way."

Hogwash. The The iHP-120 has some nice features, but like all MP3 players, it suffers from some disadvantages, such as:

- Mediocre button layout... no scroll wheel
- Edges not as curved as other players; not as comfortable to hold or pocket
- Mediocre menuing system
- Long startup time if using the DB to organize instead of sorting by directories
- Limited shuffling abilites (especially if organizing by directories)

Additionally, the iPod supports replaygain while the iHP does not does. Also, the iHP doesn't do gapless playback, FLAC, or ethernet (the Karma has all those things, and the Karma will be getting replaygain soon).

Coincidentally, I've been scouring the forums tonight looking into gapless playback, as well as the quirks of both these players. While there are plenty of posts on iRiver's forum requesting gapless playback, I have not seen any statement from iRiver stating whether it will or will not be implemented. Also of note, I didn't see any evidence of iRiver employees posting to the forum though I didn't read all of it. Perhaps there is a better forum somewhere else?

OTOH, as of 11/24/03, the Karma has new firmware (v1.25) that now supposedly supports gapless playback. It also addresses many of the other bugs people have been complaining about here on /. and riovolution's forum. According to this thread, gapless playback is working on most Ogg files and Rio seems to be genuinely committed to resolving the issue. There are several Rio employees who make frequent contributions to theKarma forum making it quite informative and worthwhile, as far as forums go....

Since I'm still deciding between the two, I don't have any personal experience with them to share. From what I've read tonight, both players have their bugs/issues which is why I'm waiting a bit to see how the firmwares progress. That being said, I'm strongly leaning towards the Karma at the moment.

Coincidentally, I've been scouring the forums tonight looking into gapless playback, as well as the quirks of both these players. While there are plenty of posts on iRiver's forum requesting gapless playback, I have not seen any statement from iRiver stating whether it will or will not be implemented. Also of note, I didn't see any evidence of iRiver employees posting to the forum though I didn't read all of it. Perhaps there is a better forum somewhere else?

OTOH, as of 11/24/03, the Karma has new firmware (v1.25) that now supposedly supports gapless playback. It also addresses many of the other bugs people have been complaining about here on /. and riovolution's forum. According to this thread, gapless playback is working on most Ogg files and Rio seems to be genuinely committed to resolving the issue. There are several Rio employees who make frequent contributions to theKarma forum making it quite informative and worthwhile, as far as forums go....

Since I'm still deciding between the two, I don't have any personal experience with them to share. From what I've read tonight, both players have their bugs/issues which is why I'm waiting a bit to see how the firmwares progress. That being said, I'm strongly leaning towards the Karma at the moment.

Coincidentally, I've been scouring the forums tonight looking into gapless playback, as well as the quirks of both these players. While there are plenty of posts on iRiver's forum requesting gapless playback, I have not seen any statement from iRiver stating whether it will or will not be implemented. Also of note, I didn't see any evidence of iRiver employees posting to the forum though I didn't read all of it. Perhaps there is a better forum somewhere else?

OTOH, as of 11/24/03, the Karma has new firmware (v1.25) that now supposedly supports gapless playback. It also addresses many of the other bugs people have been complaining about here on /. and riovolution's forum. According to this thread, gapless playback is working on most Ogg files and Rio seems to be genuinely committed to resolving the issue. There are several Rio employees who make frequent contributions to theKarma forum making it quite informative and worthwhile, as far as forums go....

Since I'm still deciding between the two, I don't have any personal experience with them to share. From what I've read tonight, both players have their bugs/issues which is why I'm waiting a bit to see how the firmwares progress. That being said, I'm strongly leaning towards the Karma at the moment.

The following is culled from this forum and other sites, with some of the more detailed information provided by UK Rio Engineer's posts.

Q: What kind of battery does Karma have?
A: Karma has a non-replaceable Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) battery, identical to the ones found in most other MP3 players, cell phones and a wide range of electronic products.

Q: How long does a full battery charge last?
A: Rio advertises the battery lasting 15 hours per full charge, using the following criteria: 128 MP3, Volume: 15, EQ: Off. The reality is that this battery has tested at about 16 hours with these criteria.

Q: How should I care for my battery when I first get my Karma?
A: When you first get your Karma, it will be at slightly less than a half charge. As per the included intructions, charge it for five hours before use. Then, fully charge and discharge your battery the first few times to properly calibrate it, helping to maximize your potential battery cycle length. After that, you may do partial charges without any adverse impact. Therefore, you won't need to fully charge/discharge each time.

Q: If I won't be using my Karma for an extended period, how should I leave the battery?
A: For long term storage, leave your battery about 40% charge, which reduces long-term battery degradation substantially.

Q: If my Karma is connected to AC, will it still drain the battery?
A: No. When AC is connected, Karma is powered directly from the power supply unit (charger).

Q: Can I overcharge my battery by leaving it plugged in to AC too long?
A: No. You have nothing to worry about if you forget to unplug your AC after the player is fully charged.

Q: How long does it take to charge my battery?
A: From empty, it takes about 2 hours to get to ~80-90% full. It will then trickle charge the last 10% or so, which can take another hour or so.

Q: What is the battery life of Karma?
A: Like other Li-Ion products, a good rule of thumb is about 500 cycles at 100% (don't worry, partial charges count as partial cycles). After 500 cycles, it will reduce to about an 80% charge. Based on your average daily use, do the math. This battery should last you many, many years.

If you need more space there is supposibly a Karma 40 model that will be comming out next which holds 40GB. Check out the riovolution forums, the developers are quite active there.

I've got one of these two -- had it a week now and have nothing but good things to say.

Does the Karma support dynamic playlist building? That is, can you program a playlist on the device while it is playing music?

Oh yes. It's quite powerful in that regard. The Rio DJ is goddamned fabulous.

Does the Karma support gapless playback? I've heard about the crossfade feature, but I'm much more interested in gapless transitions between tracks.

This works for mp3s that were encoded -nogap only at the moment. Some of the Rio developers hang out and post at the Riovolution forums and they've said the forthcoming 1.2.x firmware (due out any day now) should make gapless a reality for ogg (which was supposed to, but had a bug) and even non-nogap mp3s (the Karma will now drop silent frames starting and trailing mp3s).

Does it display non-western charsets in the song titles? Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. Even accented ISO-8859-1 European characters would be a good start.

I believe the latest PC client software (Rio Music Manager) was just updated to support this. I think the next firmware will provide it on the Karma.

Also note, that while firmware upgrades are USB & Windows only, I believe the java RMML (Rio Music Manager Lite) developer has said that eventually it should be possible to udpate firmware via ethernet and his java client.

Yup, you can create and edit playlist while music is playing.

I have a friend who has played back ogg files at 400+ kbps on his karma. Not sure what he encoded them with, but he said the playback was great.

I tried the ogg files from here:
http://users.pandora.be/sjeng/floggy.html
they didn't play too well, too fast, but you could almost make out the song. Don't know about intermediate rates, all my stuff is 160.

Don't know about the charsets either.

I suggest you check out the forums on riovolution.com. I know there have been several threads about the gapless issue - apparently that's something slated to be added in an upcomming firmware releast. I have the crossfader turned on, just a preferrence. You can probably find out about the charsets here too. Several of the Rio developers hang out on the forums regularly.