Portable MP3 Hardware Sales Up

prostoalex writes "In December of 2002 only 12% of US music downloaders owned a digital music player, while for this year the number has increased to 17%. Jupiter Research expects the sales of the digital music players to double this year, while another research agency notes a remarkable shift towards paying for music. Even the music industry tends to agree that online music stores are a boon and expects the Web sales to really take off in 2004." (And the sales of Ogg-capable hardware are up, too, since there finally is some.)

Comments

MP3 CD?

[aliens]

Do CD players that can play MP3-CD's count too?

Re:MP3 CD?

[Davak]

Or cellphones that play mp3s...
Or PDAs that play mp3s...

I am currently patenting a toilet roll dispenser that connects to a network via wi-fi to play songs while you enjoy your toilet time.

All I want for Christmas is my Swiss-Army device: mp3/ogg player, PDA, cell phone, pager, and GPS.

Davak

Re:MP3 CD?

[Chris Burke]

All I want for Christmas is my Swiss-Army device: mp3/ogg player, PDA, cell phone, pager, and GPS.

Here, here! But don't forget the Swiss Army knife!

Re:MP3 CD?

[jeffy124]

be sure you cite this thingamajig from Dave Barry's gift guide as prior art on that patent application

Re:MP3 CD?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't need an mp3 player on my toilet roll, I've already written all my mp3 songs on the paper, and can sing them to myself while doing my thing.

first no troll post

[Anonymous Coward]

let's expect also the sell of digital music (i.e. mp3 songs) to increase... unfortunatelly.

Which is better?

[Anonymous Coward]

Rio Nitrus or Creative MuVo2?
Stupid Nitrus isn't PnP. If it was I'd buy it in a sec. Really cheap right now at buy.com.

perhaps more surprising

[real_smiff]

is that >4/5 of music downloaders still only listen to that music on their computers - ? When MP3 playing portable cd players (whew, that's long), for example, hardly cost more than one's that don't..

Re:perhaps more surprising

[GizmoToy]

I don't think its all that surprising, really. I'd have to believe the biggest reason most only listen to their music on their computer is because the entire library is available at any given time. You don't need to swap CDs. To most, that's a very attractive option.

re: perhaps more surprising

[ed.han]

wish i had mod points right now...

me personally, i think part of the reason people were holding off on buying MP3 players is b/c they were hoping this mythical appliance convergence happened, they could get their mobile phone, e-mail app, PDA and MP3 player in a single package. while that's possible now w/ some of the units, very few of us want to shell out for an app of that size that costs as much as some desktops right now. i think what's happening is that people realize that it'll still be a while until those things come together in a single, happy package at a significantly lower price point.

for my part i've given up and have finally decided to get myself a MP3 player just cuz i need something to dull the pain of my 1 hour train commute.

ed

Re:perhaps more surprising

[afay]

I don't really find that surprising at all. Most people I know already have a fair amount invested in CD playing equipment. So, instead of spending more money, they just burn a bunch of CD's. Seems reasonable to me.

Re:perhaps more surprising

[Zathrus]

is that >4/5 of music downloaders still only listen to that music on their computers

Or in their cars (many cars have MP3 capable CD players now, and virtually all OEM head units are MP3 capable).

I suppose I technically qualify in this survey -- I've downloaded a few things (which were available free from the artist), but most of our 80 GB collection (MP3, --alt-preset extreme) was ripped from our own CDs. And we have no portable MP3 players of any kind (I have a portable CD player/AM/FM tuner somewhere). We're content to use CDs in our cars for now (a Phatbox would be cool... but $750 ea is freaking expensive).

Sure, an iPod or other HD based player would be nifty, but that's about it... they're very expensive and we don't have much use for a portable player -- we're both desk jockeys and could play music via headphone from our PC (me)/laptop (her). At home we have TiVo's with HMO and PCs to play the music from. In between we're basically in our cars (see above). And the flash based players just don't have the capacity to be attractive (at least not to me).

Re:perhaps more surprising

[Mancide]

That's the biggest reason I'm trading in my MD player for an iPod. That, and now that I use iTMS, my purchased music is easily transferred to the iPod, I'd have to do some crafty work around to get it into the MD player.

Re: perhaps more surprising

[Ashran]

Yes but it would be great if you carry 1 storage device (let it be the phone) with you and then connect all kinds of bluetooth hw to it.

Oh, today, lets see, I'll take the video and mp3 player module with me..

Re: perhaps more surprising

[Apreche]

you are indeed correct. I have decided that I want the following all rolled into one.

Digicam, phone, pda, mp3 player, wireless (bluetooth/802.11). I know there are a few that exist, but none are quite exactly perfect. The hiptop comes close, but no wireless. The Treo600 comes close too. One day I will have it, patience.

Re:perhaps more surprising

[Tim C]

But portable CD players go through batteries like they're going out of fashion, and things like the iPod are just too damn expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a portable mp3/ogg player (especially one of the iriver ones...), but right now I simply can't justify the expense.

Re:perhaps more surprising

[Psychopundit]

Uh, is $229 for a player with a 20Gig HD backpack, a 128meg CF backpack, and an FM transmitter built in too much?

Oh yeah, it also plays ogg, wma, mp3... Sync manager is open source. Hard Drive is standard laptop hard drive (replace it with a bigger one if you want).

I mean jeez, I can't think of a better value out there.

Check it out dude.

Re: perhaps more surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the Sony-Ericsson P900 seems to do all of this reasonably well, although yes, it is very expensive. /AC

Re:perhaps more surprising

[ProppaT]

Hmm....are we forgetting about cd-burners? I know that when I download music, the first thing I do is burn them as audio tracks on a blank cd. When I can get a dvd based mp3 player or a 20+gig mp3 player for ~ $100, I might be converted. Until then, the only place I actually listen to mp3's (that I've ripped or downloaded) is at work on my laptop, on one of the 6 dvd's I have that hold my entire collection.

Re:perhaps more surprising

[samadhi]

It should however be pointed out that changing a CD is considerably easier than taking your entire PC system and a portable generator out for a jog!

Re:perhaps more surprising

[VisorGuy]

I bought the 20GB/128MB Combo and love it!

Just one quick clarification though, the 128MB backpack is actually simply a battery. All the 128MB of memory is inside the grey DSP unit.

There has been talk of CF adapter backpacks though. Either official or DIY.

re: perhaps more surprising

[ed.han]

o, absolutely, but we're not quite there yet. for my part, it looks like we've got at least a year, maybe 2 until that finally does happen.

it's a compelling vision, isn't it? perhaps in 5-10 years, what we'll have is a handset that's got a GSM card in it but also connects via bluetooth to your landline. you can switch it to landline mode when you're at home/office. it bluetooths to your LAN. when you're on roaming mode, you can wirelessly check your e-mails or even go online. and while you're complaining about lag, you can listen to a MP3.

of course, the real problem i'm foreseeing is people forgetting [component] when they leave home or the office.

ed

Re:perhaps more surprising

[smilingirl]

So, instead you are saying you carry your whole cd collection with you jogging? That would take more than a backsack. You missed the point.

The point is, mp3 player's can HOLD your entire cd collection in a little box big enough to fit in your pocket. I just recently got mine for an early Christmas present... 20 GB. The only place I still use CD's is in my car. And I wouldn't if my car still had a tape player, because then I would buy an adapter for my mp3 player. But otherwise, I either listen off the computer or mp3 player, because they can hold EVERYTHING. CDs are obsolete in my opinion. Even if I did buy a CD, I just rip it and never take it out the case again. It's a waste.

Re:perhaps more surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, then one day your hard drive will go 'click click click' and you'll wish you had the CDs for all your songs.

Re:perhaps more surprising

[smilingirl]

That's why you have backups. Which I do.

Re: perhaps more surprising

[akadruid]

I have given this a lot of thought as I trudge to and from my train stations, and this are some huge advantages to a modular system. The key to it is to split it into sections, each one having multiple applications according to need. The core would have to be a central processing unit, which should include communcations as well. This could be worn beneath the clothing or carried however you wish. This can then communicate with your other modules and any static devices such as your PC and landline telephone by wi-fi, bluetooth, GSM and any other future technology. Your additional modules can then have multiple uses. sound input and output could be arranged by whatever is cosidered asthetically pleaseing, mobile-hands-free style kids, headsets, whatever. visual input/output could be in the form of a headset again or handheld device(s). finally you can have your choice of physical input/outputs, such as cordless keyboards, pens etc and even vibrating wristbands to replace vibrating phone handsets. You central unit can read inputs from the environment and react according to your preferences, for example routing your voice calls via landline where possible, connecting to whatever networks are available, etc. This setup comfortably handles all the functions of your existing phone/pda/mp3/portable dvd/camcorder/gameboy/laptop and more, with no more than maximum 4 modules, including the central unit.

Re: perhaps more surprising

[Ashran]

If you order one, get me one too!

Yes, thats basically what I've envisioned too. Now if someone comes up with a similiar idea and tries to patent it we always have prior art :)

15 gram mp3 player

[huhmz]

I just bought one of these. (page in swedish sorry) Very nifty, you hang it around your neck, it only weighs 15 grams. Great when you want to go running and 256 MB is more than enough for a jogging run.

Re:15 gram mp3 player

[uptownguy]

it only weighs 15 grams

Better be careful there! With the former head of the ATF now heading the RIAA, I wouldn't be shocked if possession of 15 grams becomes a felony soon...

Re:15 gram mp3 player

[Mongoose Disciple]

This might have been hashed over already, but I'd be curious to hear user recommendations (or un-recommendations) for other lightweight, around-the-neck wearable mp3 players. My experience is that 99% of my mp3 player use is for working out or running, and further, that waist/belt clip isn't really viable for that. Neck seems to be the way to go if I want to use a player for that and not gradually beat the shit out of it by occasionally dropping it. Any insight?

Re:15 gram mp3 player

[kinnell]

Yeah, and 256 MB isn't nearly enough for a jogging run if your being chased by heavily armed RIAA enforcers.

Re:15 gram mp3 player

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, chase music is pretty repetitive... bet it would compress well.

Re:15 gram mp3 player

[telstar]

"Neck seems to be the way to go if I want to use a player for that and not gradually beat the shit out of it by occasionally dropping it. Any insight?"

• Arm-straps work well to avoid the whole "beating the shit out of" problem.

really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit... I wanted to be original and buy one for my friends for christmas. Hmm... maybe I should buy them a cellphone

It will be interesting to see

[mental_telepathy]

If these number go up after the Pepsi million song giveaway with Itunes. Supposedley it will be on during the superbowl, so that would be a big target audience.

Re:It will be interesting to see

[geoffspear]

If anything, that would drive the percentage of downloaders owning players down, since the downloads are free and legal and provided to consumers who might not otherwise download music, and they only play on an iPod, which costs several orders of magnitude more than a bottle of Pepsi.

Re:It will be interesting to see

[dhovis]

Sorry to be pedantic, but Pepsi is going to give away 100 Million songs, which will probably kickstart things quite a bit more than 1 million will.

Re:It will be interesting to see

[cens0r]

Has Pepsi actually confirmed this, or is this just like the McDonald's rumor.

Re:It will be interesting to see

[dhovis]

They had Pepsi execs talk about it when Apple introduced the iTMS for Windows. The campaign will start at the SuperBowl and go for two or three months. Definitely not a rumor.

what about films then?

[Janek Kozicki]

online music stores are a boon

I'm curious when they will start to sale videos in online stores?

(and when we will start to buy portable videos (of course based on linux and mplayer ;))

Re:what about films then?

[GreyPoopon]

I'm curious when they will start to sale videos in online stores?

I'm assuming you mean downloadable videos that you can burn yourself. This will probably happen when your average person's bandwidth gets high enough that downloading an entire movie is no more of a hassle than downloading a CD worth of music is now. Why? Because at that point the online trading of videos will truly begin and the MPAA will have to start looking at a different business model, just as the RIAA is now. Personally, I think the whole of the RIAA are idiots because they really missed an incredible opportunity to drastically reduce their distribution costs. They seem to be just now coming to their senses, but because they waited so long they have to deal with lots of "middle men" and competition.

Just wait and see. When you can download 2GB of data in about 2 hours, you'll start seeing the market open up. And before anybody jumps all over me, yes, I'm aware that there are already "stores" where you can watch streaming video or download and watch, but I don't think these are the same quality as what you would get on a DVD. Somebody correct me (and provide info) if I'm wrong.

Re:what about films then?

[OS24Ever]

Personally even with my 1.5MB/s DSL I do not consider that a feature I'm looking for.

Number of reasons

A) The size of the file to get the quality of Video/Audio that I want. Basically I need a DVD worth of quality at a minimum, which is 5 - 10 GBs of space. I like the extras, trailers, etc. So to get this, I'd need to 'want to watch a movie' maybe a day after I decide to get the movie.

B) I'm a collector of sorts. I've got about 700 DVDs that I've impulse bought since 1996 or so. Granted I've only purchased about 700 CDs and a few hundred songs via iTunes. With that many DVDs and the associated data on them, if I wanted to have them for 'instant gratification' I'd need roughly 4.2TBs of storage. That doesn't account for even more stuff coming out over the next x number of years.

Granted newer encoding tech such as MPEG-4 vs. MPEG-2 might help with the storage requirements, but then I'd need to have the movie companies re-encode things like 'Better off Dead' or '*Batteries not included' which about 20 people probably would want, and then I'd need to re-spend money to get them that way.

DVDs have introduced a new phenomenon to the movie industry. People willing to buy them.

I bought 9 video tapes. The first six star trek movies & the original Star Wars trilogy (not that re-done versoin, the THX version)

Just my $0.02.

Re:what about films then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because at that point the online trading of videos will truly begin and the MPAA will have to start looking at a different business model, just as the RIAA is now.

While I'll be one of the last ones to stand next to the MPAA and announce their glorious effect on technology, I will say that their current system of DVD releases less than 4 months after theatrical release appears to be working now. I'm also happy to buy television shows on DVD, sometimes a few months after the season ends.

For the most part the DVDs are offering me a product that enhances the original (special features, commentary, shiny boxes) and they do so at a price point I am very comfortable with (new movies can be had for $17 upon release).

Hell, I've started buying music DVDs because a) it gives me the better songs off of a collection of albums, and b) you can usually get them for $10. That's kind of what I'd want in a music CD sale anyway - the better music at a price point around $10.

About the only thing I can see changing are reduced release times, lowering cost as even more people jump on the DVD bandwagon, and a reduction in box office sales and TV revenue as people change their viewing habits. In fact, that will affect the MPAA industry far more than downloading of movies.

Re:what about films then?

[GreyPoopon]

About the only thing I can see changing are reduced release times, lowering cost as even more people jump on the DVD bandwagon, and a reduction in box office sales and TV revenue as people change their viewing habits. In fact, that will affect the MPAA industry far more than downloading of movies.

You have a good point. My personal viewing habits will probably change dramatically once I finish off my basement and install a home theater. The dropping costs of high definition large screen devices and rising costs of watching movies in theaters will probably push more people to do this. Once I have a home theater, I'll probably stop going out to movies altogether.

Re:what about films then?

[Anonymous Coward]

As ever, the pr0n industry has been the first to implement this. A number of sites now offer 5-day "rentals" of divx's - do a search on "divx adult movie rental" or some such and you'll see. Basically you download a (DRM encumbered, windows only) DivX of about 700mb and a license file which lets you watch it for the specified time.

Even some of the big names are doing it now (e.g. Private). I'd provide a link but I'm at work so can't really search for them right now ;)

Re:what about films then?

[madcow_ucsb]

Yup, my friend's got the home theater with a plasma and has stopped going to the movies altogether (and so have I since I have leech priviliges :). Given that you can get a DVD for about $10 while 2 movie tickets is $19 it just doesn't make sense anymore.

There are a few exceptions - matrix, LotR, etc., but typically only when it's an opening night thing or whatever.

Re:what about films then?

[GreyPoopon]

How is your experience at your friends home theater as compared to "the big screen?"

Re:what about films then?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got about 700 DVDs that I've impulse bought since 1996 or so

Heh. Reminds me a bit of Harsh Light Of Morning Falls On One-Night Stand's DVD Collection

Re:what about films then?

[Anonymous Coward]

With bittorrent you can easily get a movie in 2 to 3 hours. I think the main issue is quality. Playing MP3's through your stereo is mostly indistinguishable from the original. But watching a movie on your computer screen is NOT the same experience as watching it on the TV. Most people don't have their PC's hooked up to their TV's.

Re:what about films then?

[phorm]

A well-encoded divX file can be very high quality. Better picture than VHS, and while not quite the quality of a DVD it's still darn good.

Most of the DivX stuff you see are theatre rips, or cheap/fast jobs done. They have artifacts, file errors, audio issues, etc.

I have a DVD-Rip of "Orgazmo" (please, not jokes) which is of superb quality. Downloading it from Kazaa saved me the time of either ripping/re-encoding my own DVD, but with the price of drives being cheap I could probably have left my machine on whilst I was at work to get the job done as well.

The nicest part of having the rip? My laptop - which doesn't play DVD's can run them, as can most friends' PC's... and I don't have to worry about my original being scratched when I drag it over to a party involving alcohol and amusing movies.

Re:what about films then?

[GreyPoopon]

Most people don't have their PC's hooked up to their TV's.

Can you make any comment on the relative quality of bittorrent downloads vs. what's stored on the DVD? I'm just curious. Maybe they are the same; I can get 500 MB in less than thirty minutes, so I guess 4 GB would take less than 4 hours.

Re:what about films then?

[Anonymous Coward]

" Yup, my friend's got the home theater with a plasma and has stopped going to the movies altogether (and so have I since I have leech priviliges :). Given that you can get a DVD for about $10 while 2 movie tickets is $19 it just doesn't make sense anymore."

So. Does this mean your friend used to buy your ticket to the movie as well ? Does this mean then that you are your friends bitch ?

If that is the case then he is saving a lot of money and perhaps some embarrassment by keeping you out of public spaces.

Best of luck with your alternative realtionship.

But of course

[cspenn]

Funny how the music industry changes its tune as soon as the money starts rolling in.

"Oh yeah, the Internet, it's the latest thing!" ...while the RIAA locks and loads the lawsuit cannon for yet another salvo.

I wonder if customers will be as easily confused?

Re:But of course

[Overly Critical Guy]

How are they changing their tune? Piracy is still their #1 target. They were never against the Internet--they were against piracy. Even good ol' Hillary Rosen used to repeat this constantly.

Re:But of course

[Sj0]

Cable theft is stealing?

Well there goes MY evil plan all shot to shit, thank you very much!

Ogg capable hardware

[pebs]

And the sales of Ogg-capable hardware are up, too, since there finally is some.

What hardware is capable of playing Ogg?

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

there are some: VorbisHardware

Damn Moronic Editors

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[mekkab]

Whats funny, is that the post Right After yours answers that very question!

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[radish]

Off the top of my head: iRiver, Neuros & Rio Karma. The Neuros is huge but cheap, iRiver is reasonable but I've heard lots of bad reports on forums, Karma is cute sexy and cheap ($234 is the lowest I've seen reported).

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[Psychopundit]

Check out the Neuros.

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[AchilleTalon]

Nice, however WHY there is no low-end Ogg-portable players?

They all have a "huge" HD. I am just desesperatly seeking for a 128MB or 256MB Ogg capable player. I don't want to spend so much money on a player for my daugthers and, anyway, they don't need 600 hours of music available in their pocket. One hour or two clipped on shirts will be just enough.

Anyone listening at iRiver, Rio and the likes?

Anyway, in the mean time, I will just buy a MP3 player...

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[nxg125]

The 128MB Neuros costs $99. Cheap enough for you?

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[AchilleTalon]

Maybe you missed this one:

"Open source foundation Xiph.org, founders of the Ogg Vorbis codec, released the first beta of Neurosetta, the firmware upgrade that makes the Neuros the first portable hard drive player to support Ogg Vorbis playback."

- Neuros: News Item -

So, it seems, according to Neuros' site, the Vorbis format is NOT supported on memory only players...

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[Sean Starkey]

You are misreading the quote. The Neuros memory only reader (the $99 unit) can play Ogg Vorbis files.

The only difference between the memory unit and the HD unit is the size available for files.

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[AchilleTalon]

I just want to believe you. However, nowhere it is clearly stated that all models support Ogg-Vorbis and the only place it refers to the Ogg-Vorbis, it is talking about the hard-drive model.

Could you please clarify...with an authoritive source.

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[nxg125]

I agree that that statement leaves the door open to interpretation. I can't point you to a press release or anything, but I assure you I use the hard drive backpack all day at work and the flash backpack several times a week at the gym. Believe me, all formats (ogg, wav, wma, mp3) are supported on both backpacks.

Re:Ogg capable hardware

[Psychopundit]

Well, I think if you read the Neuros forums you will get independent confirmation of this fact by users. If that's not enough, you can post a direct question on the forums. I can tell you firsthand that it plays ogg in both configuration. Or you could listen to Starkey (who if it's the same starkey that posts on the forums) is the project manager for the Neuros Database Manipulator http://neurosdbm.sourceforge.net

Statistics

[trystanu]

So let me get this straight:

In 2002 only 12% of people downloading music owned MP3 players

In 2003 17% of people downloading music owned MP3 players.

So we're talking percents of percents here. 12% of however many people were downloading music (on that'd be less if we're talking people who've paid for their downloaded music). Has this number increased, decreased?

Thankfully in the new 2003 Jupiter Research consumer survey, 6 percent of online adults said they would be buying a portable music device in the next 12 months. What's an online adult, am I an online adult?

Uhuh? Anyone else confused? They seem like numbers just for the sake of numbers to me...

Re:Statistics

[Lev13than]

Uhuh? Anyone else confused? They seem like numbers just for the sake of numbers to me...

"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that."

Re:Statistics

[Anonymous Coward]

What's even better is the article actually says 19% not 17%. None of it really means anything except that sales are up and will continue to go up.

And if you are over 18 then you are an online adult. That one at least seemed easy to figure out to me. My mother on the other hand (who has never touched even an ATM let alone a computer) is not an online adult.

Re:Statistics

[Anonymous Coward]

y mother on the other hand (who has never touched even an ATM let alone a computer) is not an online adult.

So what is she, a script kiddie? ;-)

Re:Statistics

[cfadam]

35% of all statistics are total crap.

My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Amiga Lover]

It shreds the iPod in every way. Plays WMA and OGG like the iPod doesn't. 20GB drive, records standard like the iPod doesn't, has built in radio as the iPod doesn't, mic input (yes it records standard) true SRS surround sound, USB2.0 like the iPod doesn't, digital and analog audio out, the sexiest case on a portable music player ever, and all for $370.

go to http://www.outwardsound.com/products.php/7/278/ for a look.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Anonymous Coward]

USB2.0 like the iPod doesn't

FYI, the iPod does come with USB 2.0 via it's dock or a USB 2.0 -> Firewire cable. Look at the bottom of the page.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[jandrese]

What about the interface? Does it have an elegant easy to use interface like the iPod, or is it more like most MP3 players with some horrible hack job of an interface?

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if you look at the pictures on the site you can see the interface is almost identical to the iPod even. up.right.left.down controls and black on large bluelit screen they have a winner there.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[MrMickS]

From the Apple website:

Connectivity FireWire 400 and USB 2.0 through dock connector

If you are going to rant get the facts right first.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[karmaflux]

The iPod does USB 2.0.

The rest of the feature set you list are things that I, and many others, find completely useless. I hate WMA only slightly less than I hate ogg vorbis -- and I bet that true SRS surround sound sounds great through your nine thousand dollar stereo system, but I want something portable.
Your baby weighs in at 160 grams, sizing out at 60x19x105. This is negligibly different from the iPod -- but the iPod has a bit better feature set.
The iRiver is, from its name on down, an iPod knockoff. Your opinion is your own, and you're welcome to it, but for some of us, the iPod is exactly what we're looking for: a small, well-rounded mp3 player that doesn't look like a tricorder.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[radish]

And in an emergency can be used as a brick for repairing leaking dams. Man that thing's big...

Karma all the way for me, fits in the palm of your hand.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Eccles]

It shreds the iPod in every way.

The iPod has a user-replaceable battery (even if Apple isn't very vocal about this), the iRiver does not. Since batteries do fail now and then, I consider this a significant flaw in the iRiver.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[dewc]

iRiver has been around even before iPods were introduced, so the name is a not a knockoff. I don't have a lot research to back this up, but according to NYT iPods were introduced in 2001. The iRiver.com domain name was first registered in 1998. Their own website says the company was introduced in 1999 iriver. That's all I'm nitpicking about. :) All other points are valid opinions like you said.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[theLOUDroom]

I so totally agree about the other post's "cognitive dissonace" statement.

This device is the same size as a ipod, but stomps it into the ground in terms of features.

Somehow this makes it a "knockoff" and the ipod has a better "feature set"?

Your post just smacks of:
'So what if it can do everything mine can do plus more with no real drawbacks, mine is somehow still better. I don't really know why, but I refuse to believe that another device could be better.'
A good example of cognitive dissonance at work.

Also, FYI, a very good set of headphones can be had for around $100 (Sennheiser HD-495, entry-level Grado's). Amazing headphones can be had for $300 (Sennheiser HD-600).

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[rufo]

No it's not. There's no scroll wheel. I have 10GB of music on my iPod - I'd probably sooner commit suicide then trying to scroll all the way down to U2 or something low on the alphabet. (Yes, I realize there's probably a page-down feature. The scroll wheel still beats paging down by a mile.)

Also, I must admit, the iPod's auto-sync is a killer feature that no other player that I've heard of does. Plug it in, copies music, leave it plugged in until you're ready to go and just grab it and leave. The iRiver player just shows up as a hard drive, and won't even show artist/album/genre info unless you run a special software program.

Still, it does look fairly cool - if I were in the market for an MP3 player I would have to give it serious thought. One definite downside is that for all the vaunted MP3/WMA/Ogg support, there's no support for Audible.com, which the iPod does (and no other portable HD-based player has). Granted, not everybody wants to use such evil proprietary formats as Audible, but for some people it's kind of a turnoff.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Deslock]

"It shreds the iPod in every way."

Hogwash. The The iHP-120 has some nice features, but like all MP3 players, it suffers from some disadvantages, such as:

- Mediocre button layout... no scroll wheel
- Edges not as curved as other players; not as comfortable to hold or pocket
- Mediocre menuing system
- Long startup time if using the DB to organize instead of sorting by directories
- Limited shuffling abilites (especially if organizing by directories)

Additionally, the iPod supports replaygain while the iHP does not does. Also, the iHP doesn't do gapless playback, FLAC, or ethernet (the Karma has all those things, and the Karma will be getting replaygain soon).

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[mekkab]

Its not that sexy. Unless you find large cotton bloomers on a rotund woman/man to be sexy...

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Anonymous Coward]

iRiver will replace your battery for free if you kill it.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Ryan Amos]

Keep in mind, Apple has created a very strong brand with the iPod. People don't just want an MP3 player, they want an iPod. Also, I'm willing to bet that the iRiver player requires a lot of tinkering (like every other MP3 player I've used except the iPod) to get the tags to show up, upload music, etc. The iPod just automagically works, auto-syncing your music library with your iPod. Oh, and it charges the batteries while it's doing that too. There's more to a "feature set" than tech specs. The iRiver may be okay for slashdot tech geeks, but get your sister one and she won't be able to figure out how to upload music without you showing her 20 times.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[pknoll]

Does it sync with iTunes? No?

Dealbreaker for me.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[DWIM]

The iRiver is, from its name on down, an iPod knockoff. Your opinion is your own, and you're welcome to it, but for some of us, the iPod is exactly what we're looking for: a small, well-rounded mp3 player that doesn't look like a tricorder.

I think this comment says a lot about what iPod fans really like about their favorite mp3 player: it's fashionable.

It also demonstrates how iPod fans are often highly defensive wrt their device whenever the merits of another, competing device are brought up.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Anonymous Coward]

trying to scroll all the way down to U2 or something low on the alphabet

I think ZZ Top is about as far as you can get, at least until they add another Z.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[DietFluffy]

it should be noted that the usb cable for the ipod is not include and will cost you an extra $20.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[abischof]

I'd be tempted to buy one if they only supported Macs (their support page only lists Windows downloads). Unfortunately, the Rio Karma doesn't natively support Mac either. All I need is an Ogg-supporting player that works on a Mac :).

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[timeOday]

I hate to spoil your fun, but the iRiver iHP-120 is smaller than the i-Pod. The ipod is the same depth, 30% wider (21.8mm wider), though slightly thinner - 0.3mm for the 30 gig, and 3.3 mm for the 10 and 15 gigs. (Call it 2 mm since the iRiver is 20 gig). In other words the only substantial difference is that the ipod is wider.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Cy Guy]

I'd be tempted to buy one if they only supported Macs (their support page only lists Windows downloads).

I am getting one of their flash based players (the iRiver iFP-180T) for myself [a PC guy] and one for my brother [a Mac guy]. I too was pretty discouraged that they didn't support Mac but after a lot of fruitless Googling, then some more digging on their site I eventually found that they are Mac compatible. The iHP-100 series FAQ is very clear about this, it just not clear why they the FAQ isn't better labelled to indicate it applies to the iHP-120:
"Q. Will the iHP work on a Mac?
A. The iHP is compatible with Mac OS 10.2. When attached, the iHP will display as an icon on the desktop. Open the iHP icon to add files to the player. Note, the DB functions described in the manual are not available at this time, as the index can not be created with Mac OS. This means that Album, Artist, Genre, and Title searching will not be available. ".

The iFP-100 series (the flash players) FAQ is also clear but less so since they directly contradict themselves in two consecutive sentences:
"Q. What operating systems are the iFP-Players compatible with?
A. The iFP-Players are only compatible with Windows 98SE (Second Edition) / Me / 2000 / XP. They are also compatible with Mac versions OS9 and OSX. The iFP-Players cannot be used with Windows NT (NT does not support / recognize USB based devices)."

FWIW, the reason I picked this player is that the flash version not only has the built in voice recorder and FM receiver, it will also record FM directly to memory. I can't count the number of times I've seen people on Slashdot asking for a Tivo like device for FM, well this seems to be the first step toward such a device, though there is no way to automate the process.

As to support for Open OS's, as noted elsewhere, any OS with USB & vfat support can read and write to the flash player just like thumb drive - which was the other significant item on my Xmas list this year. So with one sub-$100 item, I'm all set. The iRiver music management software is only available for Macs and Windows though.

Re:My vote for the best of them... iRiver iHP-120

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this comment says a lot about what iPod fans really like about their favorite mp3 player: it's fashionable.

And that gets in the road of the facts when iPod fans rant about their players.

an iPod knockoff from the name on down? Interesting that iRiver existed 2 years before iPod was released.

Of course, to a mac junkie this kind of 'fact' doesn't matter. iPod is more well known so everything else is a copy.

Al gore invented the internet, and Steve Jobs invented MP3 players.

Re:Humdidum

[greechneb]

Guess an ipod would be a lot easier to lose then your car...

OGG Player Sales

[ch0ke]

Yes, ogg player sales are up, GREAT! But, how many of those are sold ONLY because the person wants _ogg_ and not just because they have ogg capability?

The RIAA must not like this.

[OS24Ever]

I'm sure the RIAA is quaking in their boots hearing this. I keep waiting for them to start to go after MP3 manufacturers because we all know if you use an MP3 player you steal music.

Which had me really interested in the interview with Steve Jobs previously referenced here on slashdot was that music execs thought that 'ripping a CD' equated to theft, not to converting it to MP3s.

To be that out of touch with consumers of your product just helps me feel that market pressures, not lawsuits or 'civil disobediance' of supporting Kazaa and other illegal methods of distribution will slowly convert the morons.

That or we could all hope they die of old age because to not understand what Ripping is they have to be 100+ and never used a computer in their life. Hell my Grandpa new what the internet was and he was 91 when he joked about me finding him a girlfriend online after I met my wife that way. He drove road graters for a living, and never touched a computer.

Re:The RIAA must not like this.

[AdeBaumann]

It's not as if they haven't tried this already...

• Here's a link
• and here
• and here
• and here

If you want more, Google!

Re:The RIAA must not like this.

[Lars T.]

Oh, be fair! It wasn't "music execs" who thought that, it was just Michael Eisner. Real music execs are also out of touch with reallity, but he's in his own league.

Re:The RIAA must not like this.

[rsmith-mac]

For those too lazy to read, in the end they sued and just about lost to Diamond Multimedia(makers of the Rio, the first consumer portable MP3 player), effectively doing for MP3 players what happened to VCRs 20 years earlier. Sadly, between these legal costs and poor management from S3/SonicBlue, Diamond still bit the dust, although a couple years later than the RIAA would have hoped.

15 gram mp3 player-Flashback.

[Anonymous Coward]

"...and 256 MB is more than enough for a jogging run."

Not anymore.

Re:15 gram mp3 player-Flashback.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you running marathons? Even if you are, listening to songs twice isn't the worst thing in the world.

The Fight over Format

[mr_lithic]

Is this the Music Industry finally admitting that they no longer can inhibit digital music distribution and that need to grab their share of the pie?

The music industry corporations made a bundle by changing the format of the media that they supply. There were millions made when the CD replaced the LP and millions of older releases were sold to people who already had the album.

The shift to a portable digital format has been made outside of their control and now they are struggling to catch up.

The lack of willingness by the younger population (12-17) in this study to purchase music points to the fact that they may have already missed the boat.

Re:The Fight over Format

[dr_dank]

There were millions made when the CD replaced the LP and millions of older releases were sold to people who already had the album

This is true, but now we've reached the point where the average person can now convert their cd tracks to MP3 or other such digital formats. Who would buy a digital copy of an album they already own when they can do it themselves at no cost with little effort?

Re:The Fight over Format

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they have missed the boat. They are trying to push restricted, DRM laden files down consumers throats when the free equivalents continue to exist, and will always exist. Not only have they missed the boat, they are in danger of falling into the harbor.

Re:The Fight over Format

[cens0r]

No one is going to re-buy a song they already own in a inferior format. If they want to make millions selling the same content over again they're going to need to push SACD or DVD-A. The problem is that CD is good enough for most listeners, and old content doesn't gain that much from being put on one of the superior formats.

Re:The Fight over Format

[geekee]

"The music industry corporations made a bundle by changing the format of the media that they supply. There were millions made when the CD replaced the LP and millions of older releases were sold to people who already had the album."

People replaced LPs with CDs because LPs wear out. Before CDs, they were replacing LPs, with the same LPs after they wore out. Why do you think Drak Side of the Moon was on the top 200 list for over ten years? "The lack of willingness by the younger population (12-17) in this study to purchase music points to the fact that they may have already missed the boat."

The reason that 12-17 year olds don't purchase music online, but instead download it for free, has more to do lack of respect for copyright than mp3 vs. wma.

Not a surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

"Even the music industry tends to agree that online music stores are a boon and expects the Web sales to really take off in 2004."

I should hope they agree, since they are selling their music through these sites.

In other surprising optimistic statements, RealMedia (TM) expects sales of its software to really take off in 2004.

Changing Tunes For $$$

[tds67]

Funny how the music industry changes its tune as soon as the money starts rolling in.

Where have you been? Then money's been rolling in.

There was that 12 year-old girl they sued and got some money out of, that 70-something year old man they sued, the college kids they sued, the housewife they're suing, etc., etc.

Re:Changing Tunes For $$$

[cspenn]

Oh, sorry. I meant getting money for the actual product they're supposed to be dispensing.

And I wonder just how much of the settlements they get versus how much their lawyers get...

Re:Changing Tunes For $$$

[azuretek]

oh they probably just have in house lawyers for little things like this :D

oops, knew i was missing something!

[real_smiff]

they could, of course (hopefully before someone else says it!) be making (ordinary red-book audio) CDs from those downloads... no portably mp3 player required, hehe. :)

My vote for the best of them.iRiver iHP-120-JRDF

[Anonymous Coward]

" It shreds the iPod in every way. Plays WMA and OGG like the iPod doesn't. 20GB drive, records standard like the iPod doesn't, has built in radio as the iPod doesn't, mic input (yes it records standard) true SRS surround sound, USB2.0 like the iPod doesn't, digital and analog audio out, the sexiest case on a portable music player ever, and all for $370."

Unfortunately it doesn't come with a Job's Reality Distortion Field (JRDF), so it's not as good.

Re:Ogg, but for how long?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ogg is the most in-demand format? I am not even sure that it is the most in-demand format on slashdot let alone the rest of the world. I could do a quick sampling of say 50 accountants and I bet that not one of them ever heard of Ogg. I would guess the most common answer would be "some form of Egg Nog."

It has to be said...

[troon]

You mean "Vorbis", not "Ogg". As has been pointed out many times, Ogg is the "container", and Vorbis is the audio codec.
</pedant>

Re:It has to be said...

[DarkMan]

He could have ment Ogg, given that it's a container format, and can have various codecs embeded in it. He did not give enough infomation to be precise enough proven wrong in his statement i.e. it was not clear that Vorbis was, indeed ment. It's only wrong if you apply an unprovable assumption to his words.

Morale of this? Someone's going to reply to me, pointing out the pedantic mistake I probably made.

Re:It has to be said...

[Anonymous Coward]

Morale of this? Someone's going to reply to me, pointing out the pedantic mistake I probably made.

You mean the Moral, not the Morale. ;-)

What's a cheap alternative for an iPod?

[Threni]

I sort of want an iPod, but would rather

i) not give any money to Apple (just don't like them)
ii) spend nearly 300 UKP on something I'll easily lose/break.

Can anyone recommend a cheaper alternative? I don't mind the fact that some of the others are a bit larger, as it'll be in a jacket pocket, rucksack or on my desk, rather than in a shirt pocket. 20/30 gb would be nice, as would USB 2, firewire or (preferably, but i'm probably dreaming here as it's only been out for 2 or 3 years) Bluetooth.

Re:What's a cheap alternative for an iPod?

[mr_lithic]

If you are looking for an alternative, you will find that the competitive players that have same capacity are the same price (20Gb roughly 250 - 300).

The alternative is to look for something with removable media. SmartMedia or SD Card players are running around the 100 quid mark (probably the same in US dollars). If you need to use it on a longer journey just bring a couple media cards with you. At roughly 20 (pounds again!) for a 128Mb Card you can get a couple hours of music on each. This works out to pretty reasonable /Mb ratio.

Re:What's a cheap alternative for an iPod?

[zoemerloem]

the Rio Karma sounds great
http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/shop/_temp lates/i tem_main_Rio.asp?model=220&cat=56

The following webpage mentions a few other ones
http://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisHardware

Re:What's a cheap alternative for an iPod?

[Psychopundit]

Have you considered the Neu... Oh never mind.

Re:What's a cheap alternative for an iPod?

[oscast]

Why are you people so quick to provide him an alternative to the iPod after the reasons he gave are so stupid.

He doesn;t want the iPod because he'll loss it or break it. Why is it that he wouldn't loose or break any other MP3 player.

and why does he kust not like them? That's stupid.

Re:What's a cheap alternative for an iPod?

[Threni]

I don't want an iPod because of the cost, and all Apple stuff is overpriced and overhyped, and I don't want any part of that.

I don't mind/breaking losing a 50 UKP diskman with MP3 playback, for example, and this is what I'm currently looking into - perhaps one which plays the funky little 8cm disks, assuming I can get hold of them cheaply enough, and assuming my burner can write to them.

I'm less likely to break a solid state player, but there's not enough RAM in the ones i've seen, though i'll look into one of the replies I got, which was one which uses memory cards.

Just because you've got nothing to offer doesn't mean nobody else has. Share your advice or STFU, there's a good chap.

Re:What's a cheap alternative for an iPod?

[The Human Cow]

I wholeheartedly recommend the Archos Recorder 20. I've had mine for about 6 months now and have been nothing but pleased with it after replacing the default firmware with Rockbox. Plus, you can find it for as little as $170 with rebate occasionally.

amazing

[nomadic]

"In December of 2002 only 12% of US music downloaders owned a digital music player, while for this year the number has increased to 17%.

What an underwhelming statistic. Wow, a whole 5%.

Re:amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure you understand the meaning of "%"?

Re:amazing

[nomadic]

A 5% increase in an appliance that SHOULD be hitting its stride right now over an entire year isn't impressive.

iPods....

[jeffy124]

right now seems like a good chance for me to say thank you to all who provided useful comments and tips in the article posted earlier this week on the lack of discounts available for the Apple iPod.

alas, I still have not been able to find a decent deal. Many have pointed to apple's refurb'd items store, but it's out of stock on ipods. the best thing I've got right now is that Target will give you a $15 gift card when you buy an ipod.

my best hope is that some marketer at Apple will see the original post and the responses and perhaps have a change of heart in what seems to be their "no discounting" policy, and how the cheaper prices offered by their competitors might be beating them in the market.

Re:iPods....

[Animaether]

my best hope is that some marketer at Apple will see the original post and the responses and perhaps have a change of heart in what seems to be their "no discounting" policy

Hop into business mode for a second and read what you wrote there.

I see...
- a person who really, really wants an iPod
- a person who would want that iPod at a discount
- a person who sees cheaper offerings from competitors
- a person who does not intend to buy said other offerings because he is
- a person who really, really wants an iPod

Why lower the price ? Seems like in the end, if you can't find a cheaper deal, you'll cut your (monetary) losses and get an iPod anyway.

And even if you do go and get a competitor's product- don't worry, there's plenty others who will still get an Ipod.

Re:iPods....

[jeffy124]

that's me you're talking about. but what about the average joe (or parent buying christmas gifts) who just wants a mp3 player, and isnt aware of the differences between the various selections other than capacity? They're more likely to go the cheapest offering, and it's there where apple's is more likely to end up losing.

Re:iPods....

[gambitdis]

Might want to check out the Universities in your area. For example:

http://www.business-services.upenn.edu/computersto re/core/peripherals/mp3/index.html

Re:iPods....

[jeffy124]

you must be psychic or something. I live/work in South Jersey and went to school near Penn.

Dumb question: Do you have to be a Penn student to purchase something at that particular store?

Re:iPods....

[MacFury]

And even if you do go and get a competitor's product- don't worry, there's plenty others who will still get an Ipod.

Even if he goes with another MP3 player, he's likely to sell it and eventually get an iPod. I bought an Archos awhile ago, got frustrated, returned it and got an iPod.

Re:iPods....

[DWIM]

I see...
- a person who really, really wants an iPod
- a person who would want that iPod at a discount
- a person who sees cheaper offerings from competitors
- a person who does not intend to buy said other offerings because he is
- a person who really, really wants an iPod

That could have been me about 8 months ago, but not anymore. I am now holding out for a player that meets my requirements. Right now, the iRiver iHP-120 is looking pretty good. Regardless, since the person you were describing has not actually purchased anything yet, it is very presumptuous to assume he really "does not intend to buy said other offerings...". The jury is certainly out on that one since the guy does not perceive the iPod as being worth the money.

Re:iPods....

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me tell you what's going to happen. You're going to end up with an iPod somehow or another. First of all, why is 300 bucks such a big deal to you? I am a grad student right now and could easily blow 300 on an iPod if I wanted one, which I don't, and I'll address that in a minute. Look, if you were like a 12 year old (which I thought you were at first, but your post claims you're out of college already???), I would seriously email you and donate you an iPod, because I'd feel bad for you. I've bought several kids in my area nice holiday gifts already, from GBA's to Gamecubes.

Another thing to consider is how much you'd be willing to buy an iPod for? 300 dollars appears to be too much for you, well how much would you be willing to pay, 250? Is 50 dollars really putting you over the edge?? If you want it so bad, just buy it!

Lastly, after you get object of your lust, you're not going to be any happier than you are now. Your original post stated how poor this holiday season is going to be because you can't afford an iPod. Is an iPod really going to bring you happiness in your life? Maybe for a week or a month. THat's not to say you won't use it longer, but the shiny newness of it will where off, and you'll just be left wanting the next big thing next year, whatever it is.

So the only two ways out of your conundrum are to save up and buy the iPod at retail price, or change your consumeristic attitude about life and get a passion for something other than having the newest toy. Bet I know which one you'll choose.

Good luck, and happy holidays.

Re:iPods....

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that xmas lists are likely to say "ipod" instead of "mp3 player". If you know enough to want an mp3 player, you're likely to know enough to want an ipod.

Re:iPods....

[gambitdis]

You need someone with a Penn card (ID card). So students, faculty, and staff work.

Re:iPods....

[karnal]

Yes, you're right -- Apple is more likely to lose out the "average people". However, in all fairness, BMW is likely to lose out on that market as well.

I don't think Apple's too worried about the most common people out there. They're etching themselves into the pages of history as a company who can provide functionality and appearance... for a price. Seems to be working (much like BMW.)

Re:iPods....

[locker1776]

Apple Must be doing something right. Go to bestbuy.com and search for iPods. They are all sold out. Why does Apple need to lower the price? If they are selling out, economics says they should raise the price.

Re:iPods....

[dten]

Personally I would like to support companies that are putting genuine effort into their interface design and aesthetics.

Any half-assed company can throw together some circuits and sell it as an MP3 player, but that doesn't mean it's usable. Apple seems to be one of the few companies out there trying to improve technical design holistically instead of just competing by the numbers, and I think that's worth supporting.

Need Search Without DL

[Flamesplash]

What the music services need to do now is provide a web based interface to their music library. I really hate it that itunes and napster require you to instll their software before seeing if a particular song/artist/album is avail. If I'm only looking for a particular song/artist/album then I don't want to install some random piece of software first. Granted most people are going to pick and use one service as their primary, ie iTunes for me, but I'm not adverse to using others if they carry music I can't get through my primary.

Re:Need Search Without DL

[molafson]

What the music services need to do now is provide a web based interface to their music library.

I see what you're saying, sort of. However, you'd need to install the iTunes program anyway, since you need iTunes to be able to use the encrypted AAC file.

Re:Need Search Without DL

[Flamesplash]

yes of course. My situation is this.

I like Eddie From Ohio. They are on an indie label not covered by iTunes. Napster claims to carry a lot of stuff 'others don't have'. I will probably not use napster for more than this, if they have it, but I don't want to install napster just to see if they have this one artist. If they do, then that's a different story.

Marketing and Convience

[pbug]

I have seen some pretty cool commericals pushing mp3 players. And I even some music videos where there were ipods in them. These are now the next "cool" tech toys to have. Also they are convient also.

I bought the Rio Karma 20gb...

[kikensei]

Works great! Contrary to a review linked on the last /. OGG/MP3 player article, the Java client works perfectly. I was able to use it to transfer and delete songs over ethernet from both my Linux desktop and my Powerbook laptop. The Win32 software and a USB2 connection seem to be required for firmware updates, but it works fine with factory firmware. It's not as elegant as the iPod in the layout of controls and the Interface, but no showstoppers. The addition of ethernet (only via a cradle) and a java client for mac/linux sealed the deal. I recommend it.

Figures.

[vasqzr]

I went in to Best Buy/Circuit City yesterday on my lunch hour, looking for a MP3 player to use in the car.

They were out of almost every model. The only ones they had were the mega-expensive models, and the cheap junk low-end models. All the mid-range stuff was gone.

I figured they were selling a ton of them.

Even my dad said he wanted one for Christmas. I told him he didn't have a computer. "But you can put songs on it for me."

Now that I think about it, it's probably eaiser than being 24/7 tech support for him if he got a PC.

Digital music player? don't you mean HDD?

[192939495969798999]

CD players are digital music players too... I think there needs to be a new phrase to describe the HDD playing devices, i.e. solid-state music players.

Merry X-Mass RIAA

[nurb432]

I bet they are salivating now over this news... and how many more potential law suits ( and subsequent 'settlements' ) they can file...

Either that or having nightmares....

No connection between online sales and players

[MrDingDong]

Most, if not all, of the online music stores sell music in some sort of proprietary, DRM-able format. MP3 is neither. So people who are buying MP3 players are probably not buying them to play music they've bought off an online music store. The major players - including Microsoft, Apple and RIAA - would like nothing better than to see MP3 disappear.

It is great that MP3 player sales are up, but I don't think that there is necessarily any sort of relationship to online music sales.

Now maybe there *is* a relationship to increased use of P2P services by the public...

Correct me if I'm wrong....

Re:No connection between online sales and players

[CottonEyedJoe]

Normally, I'd agree with you. And if you take Apple out of the equation I would agree. iTunes still defaults to ripping CD's to MP3, iPod's still play MP3's. You can rather easily convert protected AAC's (note: only iTMS AAC's are protected, not those you create) to MP3. You can say what you like about Apple and the RIAA being in bed together, but Apple has no problem with its customers playing MP3's on Macs and iPods.... "Rip, Mix, Burn".

Re:No connection between online sales and players

[rufo]

Most MP3 players can play WMA, which makes it compatible with the new Napster. The iPod, which as of the last time I had heard was the number one MP3 player, plays AAC, which makes it compatible with iTunes. So there's no real way to tell what they're playing on their portable players.

Re:No connection between online sales and players

[jgerry]

iTunes still defaults to ripping CD's to MP3

Not true, at least on the Windows version. Just installed it last night and the default is to rip CDs at 128K AAC.

Re:No connection between online sales and players

[gnu-generation-one]

"Most, if not all, of the online music stores sell music in some sort of proprietary, DRM-able format. MP3 is neither. So people who are buying MP3 players are probably not buying them to play music they've bought off an online music store. Correct me if I'm wrong.... "

Okay, let's call it a counterexample rather than a correction ;-)

I've just bought an MP3 player. It cost 300 english pounds, and will store 56GB of music on it's "60GB" disk. And I'll be using it to store music I bought from an online music store.

Specifically, the CD shop at MP3.com, where I seemed to spend a lot of time before they closed it down. When you buy a CD there, it comes with MP3 copies of all the music in the data part of the CD, as well as the normal audio. And posting a CD counts as a high-bandwidth download, you might say.

Of course, the MP3 player can store music from CDs and tapes as well, although they need a bit more work to convert them. But if you only buy music which you're guaranteed to be able to access in the future when you buy from a music store, you won't get caught out when somebody decides to drop whatever proprietry format they encrypted it in, and you'll be able to use whatever player you're using in a few years' time.

It also helps when you want to play music on the computer; XMMS doesn't play WMA files, so they'd be pretty damned usless if I did buy them. Ditto for whatever Apple uses, I believe.

To quote the proposed "consumers' bill of rights", you should expect to be able to play the music you purchase on the player of your choice, using your own means to make conversions if necessary. Anything less is just getting ripped off.

what about films then?-Modeling markets.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Personally, I think the whole of the RIAA are idiots because they really missed an incredible opportunity to drastically reduce their distribution costs. They seem to be just now coming to their senses, but because they waited so long they have to deal with lots of "middle men" and competition."

Geeks and their sense of history.
First the "middle men" existed long before there was broadband. So at the point they "came to their senses" would have been too late anyway. Second while the cost of distribution may start with them, it doesn't end with them. Third do some research. You'll find that distribution costs isn't the biggest cost of producing music, so "broadband for everyone" isn't going to do more than shift costs around. Kind of like you buying the plans for your car, and building it yourself. I'm certain the car companies and their "distribution model" would appreciate that.

Re:what about films then?-Modeling markets.

[GreyPoopon]

Geeks and their sense of history.

Anonymous Cowards and their severe lack of wits....

First the "middle men" existed long before there was broadband.... Third do some research. You'll find that distribution costs isn't the biggest cost of producing music, so "broadband for everyone" isn't going to do more than shift costs around....

Never did I state that middle men didn't exist before broadband. The opportunity the RIAA companies had was to eliminate the middleman that was already part of the legacy business model. At present, the retailer markup on a music CD is between 30 and 50 percent (yes, I did my research here). While that's actually a pretty low markup, online distribution would get rid of this cost and actually allow RIAA members to grab some of it for themselves. If you look at the per-song costs for something like iTunes, you can see that your typical "customized" CD exceeds the wholesale price of a CD. (Per-album costs seem to be only slightly above wholesale costs.) In addition, the cost of shipping CDs to warehouses and retailers goes away and is only partly replaced by the cost of maintaining the computing infrastructure necessary to house and sell online content. Furthermore, according to the RIAA, the biggest portion of the cost of a CD is marketing and promotion. While this cost could never go away, it can be somewhat reduced by providing online content and per-song pricing. If a customer can download a single tune for only 99 cents, they are far more likely to take a risk on new artists. After all, 99 cents isn't much to lose to determine that Boy Band X is just as bad as all the others. Finally, there is currently some experimentation going on by independent artists to reduce production costs by using more commoditized recording equipment and directly targeting the online format. If the recording, mixing and editing processes are all done digitally on a computer, the total cost of production goes down.

Re:what about films then?-Modeling markets.

[Anonymous Coward]

Like I said. That's simply shifting the "cost burden" around.

1. 
   Their distributors:=Broadband your paying for.
   Their Case,Notes,CD:=Your case,notes, and cd.
   Their advertisement:=Displayed on your computer.
   

Both sides are equal in that you're paying for it. Although they have the greater benefit of "economics of scale" than you do. They buy it all by the pallet load. And you?

You're right in that they will "grab it". How that translates to your bottom line, verses theirs remains to be seen, but history points the way towards a likely outcome.

"Finally, there is currently some experimentation going on by independent artists to reduce production costs by using more commoditized recording equipment and directly targeting the online format. If the recording, mixing and editing processes are all done digitally on a computer, the total cost of production goes down."

Digital is already a part of the music process. Reel to Reel analog production is a memory. So were's the savings when going to the music store?

You make the same mistake that the outsourcers do, by assuming that a savings in one, will translate to a savings in another. How about the corporate heads drive a BMW instead of a Mercedes, and you still drive what you usually do.

Re:what about films then?-Modeling markets.

[GreyPoopon]

Like I said. That's simply shifting the "cost burden" around.

Their distributors:=Broadband your paying for. Their Case,Notes,CD:=Your case,notes, and cd. Their advertisement:=Displayed on your computer.

Darl, perhaps you should stick with your lawsuit against IBM. You really don't want to be dividing your efforts right now. From the RIAA standpoint, please note that the vast majority of the costs you listed above are being transferred to the consumer without them realizing it. That means savings all over the place for RIAA. So going back to the original premise, the RIAA missed a golden opportunity.

You're right in that they will "grab it". How that translates to your bottom line, verses theirs remains to be seen, but history points the way towards a likely outcome.

From their standpoint, who cares? Maybe in the long run I end up paying the same amount (or more). Either way, they end up making more money by selling the same product with a different model.

Sexiest case?

[3.5 stripes]

If you say so.

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

Grammar

[Anonymous Coward]

(And the sales of Ogg-capable hardware are up, too, since there finally is some.)

You would think, since the word "is" is in italics, that you would have proper subject-verb agreement.

Re:Grammar

[Anonymous Coward]

(And the sales of Ogg-capable hardware are up, too, since there finally is some.)

You would think, since the word "is" is in italics, that you would have proper subject-verb agreement.

The word is which was in italics does, in fact, agree with its subject, which is the word "hardware". "Hardware" is one of those odd words that does not have a plural case. It refers to a group of items in the singular case.

You are being ridiculous.

[thepuma]

to not understand what Ripping is they have to be 100+ and never used a computer in their life.

"Ripping" is a pretty specific term, and you have to have performed the task yourself and have some knowledge of what is going on. Most user-friendly software that converts CDs to MP3s do not call it "ripping".

I don't think that most people over the age of 30 would be able to tell you what "ripping" means.

And even a lot of those people that are computer literate are not necessary to the level where they know all of the "lingo".

Re:You are being ridiculous.

[A Bugg]

I call BS on the over 30 thing, my parent know what ripping is and they are both over 50, and I am sure other parents who have children that have vast collections of mp3's have probably at one time or another heard it referenced. Now would they know HOW to rip a CD though, probably not, but don't sell people short just because they are "old" (and 30 isn't that old just to let you know).
A Bugg

Re:You are being ridiculous.

[OS24Ever]

well *I* am over 30. As are most generation-x folks that started this whole computer boom thing. I mean I did run a BBS when I was in high school, cost a lot more than a website these days. boy you young wippersnappers have no idea what it was like in the old days ;)

Cowbell

[Paladine97]

But which new players have hardware accelerated cowbell???

Re:Cowbell

[DammiTT]

"I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!".

Re:Digital music player? don't you mean HDD?

[real_smiff]

dude, an HDD is soo not solid state :) heh i know what you mean though... flashmemory based players with no moving parts, and hence, nothing to wear out? lovely :)

Re:Digital music player? don't you mean HDD?

[bobdinkel]

Solid state?
Have you seen an MP3 CD player with vacuum tubes?

iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[HardCase]

The Neuros - Plays WMA, WAV, MP3, OGG. Interchangeable 20 GB drive or 128MB flash. Built in radio. Built in mic. Line in. Records MP3 and WAV. Unsexy, utilitarian case. Open firmware and software. All for $230 (that's $140 less than an iRiver) or $199 for 20GB only (that's $170 less than an iRiver). And the hardware is upgradeable. True, it's USB 1.0, but that hasn't been a big issue for me, once I loaded my OGG collection. Loading an album or two doesn't take very much time at all. USB 2.0 isn't worth $170.

www.neurosaudio.com

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Fancia]

How is Linux support on these two devices? And does the iRiver work with USB1 at all?

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Psychopundit]

You can upload/download music to/from the Neuros on just about any platform. Linux is one of these.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[phlyingpenguin]

USB2.0 is backwards compatable, any of these devices will work only slower.

The iRiver uses a flat filesystem, any OS with USB drive and vfat support can be used with it. There is a database file that identifies the ID3 information for the player. The program to generate that has no official version from iRiver, however somebody created their own generator that is cross platform (Perl I believe, and other in C).

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Fancia]

Is the software open-source or closed-source? I'm not using an x86 computer, so closed-source likely wouldn't be of too much use to me.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[tuffy]

The software to upload files to the Neuros is Python code anyone can read. But given the lack of USB2.0 support (which you'll regret not having very rapidly), the lack of official firmware with decent Vorbis support (the current, unmaintained beta firmware sounds terrible when your vorbis quality rises above "5") and lack of updates on the firmware at open.neurosaudio.com make the whole device incomplete and practically unmaintained.

I'd stick with iRiver, and wish I had avoided getting a Neuros altogether.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Fancia]

Ick, sounds unpromising... I think I'll keep away; thank you for the advice!

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[a_timid_mouse]

Unmaintained? Pshaw! The latest beta (with ogg integrated with all of the other formats already supported by the Neuros) was released less than a month ago. You may want to catch up on your reading:

http://www.xiph.org/neurosetta/
http://www.neurosaudio.com/support/support_updates _beta.asp

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Psychopundit]

The source code for the application that handles uploads and downloads to and from the Neuros is written in Python and is due to be released to the public tomorrow. As far as I know, this software is Windows only.

However, there is much better software out there for handling this (even if you are on a windows PC). I recommend the opensource solution available on SourceForge. It's called Neuros Database Manipulator, is written in Java, and it should work in any OS that can run Java applications. It's slick, fast, and stable. Most people give up on the software that ships with the Neuros and start using this immediately.

If you want a solution written exclusively for Linux, check out the Positron software. You can read about this from the project sponsors, thos guys at Xiph.

If you have any specific questions about whether it will work on your specific OS build, I'd read and post to the Neuros forums. They have a great community support system, and the company is very much invested in answering questions as well. So, it's not unusual to get responses from the community, Neuros tech support, and even the Neuros CEO. Check it out.

So, there are a bunch of options available for ya, even if you aren't on an x86 computer.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Psychopundit]

Well, you may or may not regret the lack of USB 2.0 support very rapidly. For me, it's a non-issue as I don't move 20 gigs worth of data every couple of hours. When I got my Neuros, I selected the songs I wanted to upload to it and left it overnight when I went to sleep. Now I just add and remove a few albums at a time and for that, usb 1.x is fine. So, this has just been a non-issue for me. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind having 2.0 support, but 1.0 isn't as bad for me as it is for somepeople.

As for the vorbis sounding terrible when your vorbis quality rises above 5...well, I've not had that experience and neither have a bunch of other people. Read the forums ask the questions, decide for yourself.

You seem pretty down on the Neuros tuffy... I appreciate the fact that they release beta firmware updates regularly, as they fix bugs and improve quality. I've never had a problem with a beta update on my Neuros. But if you don't want to install them, nobody forces you too. Really.

Your conclusion that the lack of updates on the firmware at open.neurosaudio.com make the whole device incomplete and practically unmaintained is misleading and dishonest. While you can't get firmware updates at that url, you can select from a number of Beta and Point Release updates here. Additionally, Neuros makes pre-beta updates available as well.

Add to this the fact that there are a few open source projects out there supporting the Neuros, and I start to question how you arrive at your conclusion unless you ignore the facts.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[tuffy]

You seem pretty down on the Neuros tuffy... I appreciate the fact that they release beta firmware updates regularly, as they fix bugs and improve quality. I've never had a problem with a beta update on my Neuros. But if you don't want to install them, nobody forces you too. Really.

The fact is, Neuros promised Vorbis support in the summer of 2003. What we got was firmware 1.39 that played vorbis - barely. The point releases tooks months and open.neurosaudio.com went dark entirely after August, it seems. And it's plain there's a nearly six month gap between the "official" firmware releases. That puts the vorbis support about two seasons behind schedule - though I hope the very recent 1.45 firmware finally works as advertised.

This is in addition to the promised USB2.0 support. The early adopters who bought units before July 31 were promised an upgrade that isn't going to happen - ever. There won't be USB2.0 backpacks at all, nor does it look like there'll be upgrades of any kind for the "upgradable" backpack. So it's hard not to be down on the device since it seems to be going downhill.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[HardCase]

This is in addition to the promised USB2.0 support. The early adopters who bought units before July 31 were promised an upgrade that isn't going to happen - ever. There won't be USB2.0 backpacks at all, nor does it look like there'll be upgrades of any kind for the "upgradable" backpack. So it's hard not to be down on the device since it seems to be going downhill.

Apparently you must have some insight that nobody else has. DI has the USB 2.0 backpacks in beta and has announced that they will be expanding the beta program to include many of those early adopters. Given the design of the Neuros, the USB 2.0 has to be in the backpack - that's where the USB hardware is. The gray control unit merely passes the signals through.

Neuros has been very up front and communicative about the progress on the USB 2.0 upgrade. It sounds to me like you opted in early and just don't like the results. You do know that if you ask, they will take back your Neuros and give you a refund, right?

As far as the firmware goes, I've used every version since 1.39 and had no problem at all with Vorbis files at Q8. Some people do, most people don't.

You're just passing off FUD.

-h-

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[HardCase]

Naw, don't be put off by Tuffy. He's just upset that the USB 2.0 support hasn't come out as fast as he wanted. The Neuros has worked just fine for me playing Vorbis files at Q8 since the alpha firmware 1.39. Even if USB 2.0 support never comes out, the price can't be beat.

-h-

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Psychopundit]

This is in addition to the promised USB2.0 support. The early adopters who bought units before July 31 were promised an upgrade that isn't going to happen - ever. There won't be USB2.0 backpacks at all, nor does it look like there'll be upgrades of any kind for the upgradable backpack. So it's hard not to be down on the device since it seems to be going downhill.

Uh, have you even bothered to read the forums or even post your concerns? Have you thought to ask the company? It has been done a number of times, and answers abound. Hell, the CEO of Neuros posted regarding such rumors on Slashdot just a week or so ago. Because you obviously don't have one, I'll help you find a clue. Go here and read. That's just one discussion thread on the forums. There are many many more you can find. So, perhaps you can be a little more productive then spreading FUD...but given your sour nature, I seriously doubt it.

I'd tell you here that the USB 2.0 units are currently in beta, but you could read for yourself. Hell, you don't even have to read that carefully to see how far off base you are. 2.0 upgrades for early adopters are going to happen regardless of how much you want to spread the rumor that they will not.

From the forum discussion referenced above:

As Jeff said, the Neuros is certainly not toast, in fact, I'm very excited about the future of the Neuros. As I've made no secret of we have done some restructuring, but that it's because we're exiting the business is complete bunk. We simply needed to make some changes to be more competitive.

I'm using a new USB 2.0 40GB unit as we speak and we're working to release that to broader production, but it just hasn't passed QA yet. We have a bunch of new enhancements in the works, smaller, faster, sleeker, etc.

Take my word, there is no investing group, and no plug being pulled, and of course there are no guarantees of success either. What there is a group of very passionate folks, from engineers and software developers to customer service folks working hard on the Neuros to make sure that the product continues to improve and that brand comes to mean a place customers have the best experience in the industry. Despite all our mistakes and delays, that hasn't changed, and I think anyone that works here would agree on that.

Joe Born - Neuros CEO

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[tuffy]

You're just passing off FUD.

Here's another post on the subject. Until USB2.0 actually does arrive, all we're left with is slow upload speeds, promises and a lot of vaporware. When compared to iRiver and Rio that have actual working devices at high speeds, it's difficult to recommend a Neuros to someone and hope the company finishes the job.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Psychopundit]

Uh... I bought it for what it does now, which is exactly as advertised. I'm confident that the 2.0 stuff will be out shortly, but I didn't buy it for that promise. USB 2.0 is not the be all and end all for me. Today the device plays oggs, wma, and mp3 files which, coincidentally, are what i have in my collection. It syncs via usb 1.x, which for me is fine. Support is excellent. Firmware is updated. New features are added. Anything else they give is just icing on the cake. If I bought on the promise of features they would incorporate into the product at some future date and was as unhappy as you are, I would have asked for my money back. So go ahead, be grumpy. For the price and features, I don't think the neuros can be beaten today, regardless of what they add to it tomorrow.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Fancia]

True; and I don't actually *have* USB2.0, or plans to get a USB2.0 card.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Psychopundit]

But in the world of geeks, that's irrelevant! ;P

Seriously Fancia, there are a lot of good products out there and the world won't end in fire and brimstone because you choose one over the other. I hope you let us know what you decide on!

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tuffy, the gaping asshole you have exposed yourself to be has only one equivalent.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[pythian]

err, isn't NSM written in .NET? I was pretty sure it was C#.

That aside, the source should be released soon. I won't wanna mess with that C# much, but then I could go play with NeurosDBM (in Java) or Positron for Linux. Or, I could just get the database format down and write my own sync dealie.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Fancia]

Haha, quite true. ^.^ I don't know whether I'll get an MP3 player or not; but if I do, the Neuros sounds like the one to get for my needs. (The iRiver is much more expensive, the iPod has sketchy support outside of MacOS/Windows and is expensive...)

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[VisorGuy]

Neuros DataBase Manager is a cross-platform Open Source Java GUI for the Neuros.

It's very good. I use it exclusively.

Re:iRiver iHP-120 costs too much!

[Psychopundit]

Ach, was distracted thinking of the points he was making. YOu are, I believe, correct.

Thanks.

How the the java client work?

[(void*)]

Do you have to have a working JRE installed? What version are you using?

Re:How the the java client work?

[kikensei]

Yeah. You need a JRE. I just went to Sun's website and downloaded/installed the current offering from their website for my Slackware 9.1 desktop. You type in the IP of the Karma (which can be static or leased via DHCP) and you can launch either the music manager or the rio "Taxi" program, which allows you to upload data files for storage.

+5 yrs -- "Music industry has record year again!"

[Isca]

How much do you want to bet that 5 years from now, the record industry will all love the internet because this year they finally figure out how to make money by selling music at a reasonable price?

There's not one new music selling place that hasn't at least broke even at $0.99 a track? ow long before we see that special "mini Album" by (insert pop star here) for 4.99 for *6* songs?

Of course, Jack Valenti will still be moaning, but the rest of the industry will be looking at him the same way they look at him when he talks about VCR's and rentals... I.e. "what were we thinking?" after having made more money per song by not having to pay hardly anything to distribute it.

-Chris

Re:Digital music player? don't you mean HDD?

[Anonymous Coward]

But even that doesn't work, either, because CD players are solid state!

How about:
"Stacked Platter Players"........nah,
"Multiple Disc Readers"..........nope,
"Re-encoded Music Regenerators"..not even,
"CDA Enhancement Devices"........no way,
"OGG Proponent Developers".......sheesh,
"External HDD Music Devices".....corny, but accurate!

Let's just stick with what we got, MMkay?

Recording

[marcopo]

How do protable MP# players do for recording?
Are there any that are able to record uncompressed files from a mic?
Are any of them equipped with mic jack (as opposed to just line in)?

Re:Recording

[Radon Knight]

The iPod can record with a Belkin add-on mic. It records right to disk, so you can record hundreds of hours of stuff.

Re:Recording

[orthogonal]

How do protable MP# [portable MP3] players do for recording?

The Archos Recorder models (Recorder & FM Recorder), as their names suggest record to MP3 format (not uncompressed), using either the Archos firmware or the far superior Rockbox (GPL'd replacement software).

The Archos models can record from line-in or from the built-in microphone (although this means quite a bit of noise when the hard drive spins up); the FM model can also record from the radio.

Re:there is some sales.

[ProppaT]

You sir are a moron. First poster had it right. It's "are"

Re:FUD alert

[Anonymous Coward]

"and they only play on an iPod"

I have several CD's playing in my car that were burned with songs from the iTunes Music Store. I don't own an iPod. In your version of reality I must be imagining the music I hear while driving to and from work. Thanks for explaining these hallucinations. : )

Re:Digital music player? don't you mean HDD?

[Anonymous Coward]

flashmemory based players with no moving parts, and hence, nothing to wear out? lovely :)

Umm, you do know that flash memory has a limited number of read/write cycles (after which it turns into a paperweight), right?

Re:+5 yrs -- "Music industry has record year again

[tb3]

In five years Valenti will be dead, or in a home. He's the least of our worries.

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno. I have an older car (1995) that only had a tape-deck/radio. Since I have a large collection of music ripped to MP3 format, I was growing more and more dissappointed that I could not listen to my music in my car. I started investigating replacing the in-dash radio with a CD player that would read MP3's. Still, this was an imperfect option for me, cause I would still have to deal with CDs which are a pain in the butt to keep from getting scratched, out of direct sunlight, away from extremes of hot and cold, etc... I had resigned myself to dealing with this, as it was certainly better than nothing...but having burned mp3 cd's in the past, I realized that 700megs of music (+/-) is but a fraction of my collection and at best, an mp3 cd player was but a fractional step in the right direction.

So, I resigned myself to spending some cash and started researching players. Then I stumbled across this guy, and I got excited. For $229 bucks I could house 20gigs worth of music. It broadcasts audio on the FM dial, so all I had to do was tune my radio station to the Neuros broadcast station and viola, music instantly available. ...it beats the hell outta ripping apart my dash to play mp3 disks.

What's even better is that at $229 it cost less than most of the in dash mp3/CD players I was looking at. So, I took the plunge...

Haven't had a complaint yet. Works exactly as advertised. Support folk are excellent, price was great. It's not the sleekest, or sexiest player on the market, but the damn thing is cheap, versatile, and open source. Check it out if you want a solution to playing mp3's in your car. This little thing will let you play 'em anywhere. I'd take one of these over an iPod any day.

http://www.neurosaudio.com

This is what'd get me buying an MP3 player..

[Channard]

Technologically impossible this may be, but what'd get me buying an MP3 player would be an add-on that would let me plug it into a CD player's deck, in the same way you can get tape converters for CD players. The one thing that puts me off getting an MP3 player is the inability to plug into absolutely any CD player, no matter how old.

Re:This is what'd get me buying an MP3 player..

[Anonymous Coward]

They make little 3rd party low power FM transmitters that do this, more or less. You plug it into the headphone jack of your player, and tune the radio to the station the widget is set to. the Arkon FM-100 is for the car and comes with a lighter-adapter power plug. The FM-121 model is battery powered (2AAAs).

Then there's the iTrip for the iPod

Re:This is what'd get me buying an MP3 player..

[freeweed]

Get a deck with line in jacks. I did this a few years ago with my mp3 discman, when mp3 car stereos were well over $1000. The deck was $50 at the time as a refurb (couldn't care if the cassette broke).

I just picked up an RCA Lyra and couldn't be happier. It actually comes with cables to hook into a line in jack, AND the old style cassette adapter you describe. Oh, and it doesn't require any software to add music to it (it's just a portable hard drive, yay Linux support!), stores its codecs on the hard drive (yay future codec support), AND can take in playlists generated by Winamp or several other mp3 programs I've tried (yay not installing MusicMatch!).

I'm surprised no one in this thread has mentioned one yet. It's a platform-independant, multi-use, upgradable geek's wet dream.

Re:This is what'd get me buying an MP3 player..

[vsync64]

You can get FM modulators for use in car stereos, usually sold in order to install XM/Sirius receivers. They're a bit pricey ($50-$70 last time I checked) compared to the FM transmitters (I have the iRock with the DC power input and almost never have problems with interference). They're like the TV modulators you can get to hook up consoles and DVD players to older TVs. Pull out the deck, run the antenna into the modulator, then plug the modulator into the back of the deck. It may require some cutting of wires and power hookups though.

Of course this is only applicable if you want to plug it into your car, not J. Random Driver's car that you happen to be riding in.

As An AAPL Shareholder...

[systmc]

...such news is music to my ears. I think it was wise for Apple to get involved with digital music players and online music sales. Next year ought to be quite interesting.
--

An alternative

[thefinite]

As an alternative, how about getting over your distaste for Apple and just buy the iPod? It really is an amazing device for how simple it is. Plus, if you are in the habit of losing/breaking expensive things, maybe your alternative is some homeowner's/renter's insurance. (Alternatives to the iPod cost several hundred dollars themselves.) Just a thought. PS- A bluetooth player would take *ages* to transfer music to. BT might be cool for controlling the device, but not for sending music to it.

Get a PDA

[YoungBonzi]

I'll never understand why someone would rather have 10,000 songs on them at any given moment rather than a PDA. I assume whomever is interested in buying an IPOD has a computer and uses it to play music. Wouldn't a Pocket PC be the perfect situation? I think so, it'd even be less expensive. And not only that you get a input/output device, while an IPOD is only an output device. If you're set on getting an IPOD there is an organizer for it. You just have to remember that there's no way to directly input data into an IPOD (so you cannot edit or change anything). You should also remember that the IPOD software can't be modified, and your "organizer" will look like your music collection.

Re:Get a PDA

[jasonhamilton]

I've had 4 HDD based mp3 players, about 5 flash players, and two PDA's specifically bought to play mp3 and watch videos with. I've also had 2 diff types of minidisc players. All in all, while the PDA's were able to play music (and no, I didn't use the included media player), ultimately they were too much hassle, and something like the Dell Axim costs about as much as the typical HDD based player. Also, even with the extended batt on the Axim, the batt life barely lasts a day while playing non stop at work, with the screen off, and the system in low cpu mode. My minidisc player on the other hand will go several days non stop without any problems. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the minidisc is the way to go -- in fact I hate it reconverting mp3's to atrac3 format, and the other hassles (software mostly), but I am saying that dedicated music players tend to do it well, and in the long run, are a better solution. I lasted 6 months with my last PDA before I gave up and went back to a dedicated solution.

Re:Get a PDA

[freeweed]

Weekend trips. If you can find me a PocketPC that holds a gig or 3 for under $300 USD, you might convince me.

Now imagine a world where you can't predict to the song just what you're going to want to listen to days in advance.

I find I listen to a LOT more variety in my music collection now, simply because I don't pre-select what I'm going to carry with me that day. Also because I don't have to re-load the damn thing every day just to hear something new. It's amazing to re-discover an album you haven't heard in a decade, all thanks to the wonders of "shuffle" :)

Re:Get a PDA

[2nd Post!]

Uh, maybe they really, really, like music?

Re:Get a PDA

[sammaffei]

It's "iPod" not "IPOD".

That coupled with your rambling treatise shows me that you reallly have no idea about what's going on.

Re:Grammar wrongo

[Anonymous Coward]

The subject of this sentence is "sales", meant as one aggregate total, therefore getting an "is."

"of Ogg-capable hardware" is a prepositional phrase associated with the subject.

Thanks for playing, but hire out your resume. You've never diagrammed a sentence.

I's not about age.

[thepuma]

I don't mean to imply that it is age-specific at all. I am 37 and an IT guy, and I didn't know the term "ripping" as it applied to MP3s until 2 years ago.

My point is that you have to have experience either doing the task yourself, or conversing with someone who did (like having a teenager).

I think that *most* people have not had the experience of converting their CDs to MP3s, and therefore I believe that if you conducted a poll, most people would not give you that definition.

I would never sell people short because of age. My grandfather was on the internet at 80, but he has no idea what ripping is.

Re:+5 yrs -- "Music industry has record year again

[MrMickS]

[snip] after having made more money per song by not having to pay hardly anything to distribute it.

Why do /. readers continue to spread the rumor that things don't cost much to distribute over the Internet? Where did all of the millions of dotcom money go, parties? Well, some of it did but it mostly went on servers, storage and bandwidth.

There is a old adage "never underestimate the bandwidth of a van" which applies in this case. It is still more cost effective to move large volumes of data physically than over wires.

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Zathrus]

No thanks. FM does really horrible things to audio quality. If you can't hear it, that's fine, but I can -- even on stock speakers. The most audible area is low bass -- FM radio only transmits 50 Hz-15 kHz.

Note that this is broadcast FM, but AFAIK all of the local-area broadcast devices are subject to the same limitations. Most FM stations do more compression on the signal than this, so it should still sound better than they do.

same thing for the entire iTunes music store

[kaan]

I agree that the iTunes/Pepsi music giveaway will have an impact on digital music use, but I'm actually more interested in seeing how things will change for the iTunes music store itself. In recent news, Apple has said they've had more than 20 million music downloads. After they give away 1 million tracks, that's going to bring a lot of new business to the store, people who have never given it a try or maybe never heard of it. I'd be curious to see any discussion from Apple on what they're predicting for sales increases after the Pepsi giveaway.

Re:Digital music player? don't you mean HDD?

[real_smiff]

nope, i didn't know that.

Re:+5 yrs -- "Music industry has record year again

[buckhead_buddy]

How much do you want to bet that 5 years from now, the record industry will all love the internet because this year they finally figure out how to make money by selling music at a reasonable price?

Personally, I don't think they will figure this out. Even if they find out that DRMed distribution can be profitable they'll keep selling CDs because there is still a great deal of profit from distribution in physical media that doesn't have anything to do with a media sale. Unless the internet is so wildly successful that it replaces the profits from these secondary contracts as well, the RIAA will always portray online as a poor runner-up for their most profitable, lucrative, and monopolistic contracts.

In terms of being a union of artists, the RIAA does a pretty horrible job of representing the average joe in their ranks. There is definitely room to usurp their monopoly.

Pure speculation, but my guess is that the online distribution services are doing what they can to get profitable sales right now for the RIAA. When they've shored up their business model and have negotiated their next round of iron-clad, longer-term contracts, the online distributors may go into the business of replacing the RIAA with contracts directly with studios or artists directly.

(Of course the big puzzle piece that doesn't fit is Apple Computer's contract with Apple Music. This would be a big problem for Apple in ever becoming a music distributor, but either that's just one more hurdle for Apple to capitalize out of but it doesn't effect the other online distributors).

MP3 Feeding Frenzy

[bossvader]

Have you actually been out there (I know a lot of /.ers don't actually go outside) but it's an MP3 player feeding frenzy out there.!

Men, women, children, cats, dogs all shopping, buying, comparing MP3's. Professing the virtues of HD vs Flash vs CD vs personal/use profiles.

Even Pops at the ripe young age of 74 was asking me if he could use one when golfing and how easy was it to "Rip" a CD. (I can't believe he even said that)

Its all good...

MP3 Player to car stereo interface

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who only have a car stereo with a CD and no tape deck or audio inputs. Try this gadget:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/64fb /

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Psychopundit]

Hmmm... Well, to each his own. I hadn't noticed this to be a problem. In my car I want good sound of course, but I think the bigger problems are attributed to the poor listening environment (engine noise, wind noise, driving distractions, etc...). Any limitations in FM transmission just has not been an issue for me in my car. But, I can see how that might be an annoyance for vehicle audiophiles. Good luck!

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Anonymous Coward]

A few notes on why the in-dash MP3 CD player is better then an external device.

1. I keep my CD-Rs in the car (oldest ones are about 2 years old) and have had no problems reading them. Even if one did go bad, it would take me all of 15 minutes to burn the disc again (from my central MP3 server in the house).

2. In-dash MP3 CD players have a great ease-of-use / safety factor because it's easier to change music by changing CDs then to try and navigate menus on a small device. (Changing CDs can be done mostly through touch.)

3. 700Mb isn't a big limitation, unless you like to listen to a rap song right after Vivaldi. (Instead, you collect like music onto a CDR.)

OGG music for download?

[onion_breath]

I realise that this is a bit off topic, so my apologies.

I've been sampling some ogg music, and I must say the quality is excellent. Mercifully, ogg files do not have the same high-pitched "hiss" that is in most mp3's. People say I'm crazy but I swear I can hear it!

I have lately been compressing my music (CD) collection to ogg format. However, does anyone have a good resource/site that offers ogg encoded music? I have no problem paying a small fee for music, I just don't think iTunes offers ogg. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also if anyone can recommend the best ogg capable portable player (bang for buck). Thanks in advance!

Re:OGG music for download?

[danigiri]

On MacOSX iTunes plays Ogg files perfectly, by using a QuickTime plugin that is installed by drag-and-drop.

If on MacOSX, just google for it, if on Windows...

If speaking about the iTunes Music Store and not simply, 'iTunes', please clarify.

dani++

Re:OGG music for download?

[onion_breath]

My bad, I meant iTunes, the online music store. It doesn't have to be though, any site offering ogg would be helpful.

Re:OGG music for download?

[signingis]

http://vorbis.com/musicsites.psp

Carefull if you plan to jog...

[bossvader]

If you plan to jog... becareful with choosing the HD models. We love our iPod but they don't do well when taking long runs. Last year's model will actually freeze and need to be rebooted. Done lots-o-research just a fact of iPod life. The new generation is supposed to be better but not garuanteed.

So now we are going to be Bi-MP3 - Large HD (iPod) and Small Flash (Rio etc) kind of a pain in the arse...

When is that 20G flash model going to arrive...

Re:Carefull if you plan to jog...

[nxg125]

You could just get one Neuros bundle and switch backpacks based on your activity. That's what I do and it works perfectly.

Sound quality a factor?

[base_chakra]

I wonder how many people are turned off of personal digital audio players by the compromised sound quality of lossy codecs? The price per megabyte isn't nearly so attractive for those that prefer lossless quality.

When MiniDisc was new (and expensive), manufacturers targeted audiophiles while the advertising emphasized custom mixes and sound quality (even though ATRAC is also lossy). With "MP3 players," the emphasis is usually on quantity, not quality. Being able to accomodate realtime filters like DFX might be a way to find some middle ground.

I realize that most consumers either tolerate or are unaware of the fidelity loss, hence the continued dominance of the now inferior MP3 format. Still, I think that in order for this market to grow more quickly, it should educate consumers about the options available to them with these devices: CD quality if you want it, or OGG (etc.) if you want more tracks per MB.

Re:Sound quality a factor?

[freeweed]

If I really wanted, I could carry roughly 100 CDs in my Lyra. It plays wav audio no problems. Hell of a lot nicer than carrying around 100 CDs every time I hit the road (never mind the fact that I'm on public transit :).

However, the number of times I've had on high end headphones and been sitting in a perfectly quiet room listening to mp3s.. well, I can't even count it. Background noise does far more to interfere with audio quality, and mp3 players are generally used outside of sound-proofed rooms, with a $10 pair of headphones.

Re:Sound quality a factor?

[OutRigged]

Most portable mp3 players also support wav as well as mp3. The Rio Karma supports FLAC, which is a lossless audio compressiona codec.

Re:Sound quality a factor?

[otprof]

I agree with you about the sound-quality issue with lossy codecs. People say that 160 VBR is indistinguishable from the source file. Well, maybe, but like so many things in my life, I can't be bothered by the facts. :-)

Seriously, I listen to a ton of live recordings (from etree.org), and I need a player that has good support for lossless codecs.

Hence, when I buy later this month I am getting the Rio Karma, which supports FLAC. Much of the etree-seeded live music is coming in FLAC format these days, so using such a player will give me my crispy tunes on the go, no muss no fuss.

I haven't seen anything about the iRiver or Neuros supporting FLAC, though that may be in the works.

Bryan

Redundant technology

[WarriorX99]

I'm surprised that with car stereos, we're still just seeing a lot of CD players that read MP3 CDs. I'd quite prefer to keep all my music in one place like an iPod (oh, how I wish I had one). I would actually like to see more car stereos with the audio-in so that I could use an MP3 player in my car too. I wonder why that hasn't caught on. It would sure double my incentive to buy an iPod (as if there weren't incentive enough).

Re:Redundant technology

[WuphonsReach]

Much easier to swap CDs as you're driving down the road then to try and look at a tiny iPod screen. Swapping CDs can almost be done by touch (other then quick glances to verify label and aligning with the CD slot), the iPod screen requires either a lot of tiny glances or a few seconds with your eyes not watching the road.

PDAs are so 2000

[Rascasse]

I owned and used a Palm for quite some time starting in 2000. The problem with the Palm is that it was most convenient as an output device (i.e. e-book reader) when I was on the run. Any situation that necessitated me having to input some information required me to stop and find a place where I wouldn't be crushed by a crowd of people, or to wait for the bus/subway/streetcar I was in to come to a stop so the damn handwriting recognition wouldn't get screwed by my chaotic input. As a result, most of the time I found myself using the PDA for input whilst sitting down at a table, where a laptop would have been much more convenient and offered more functionality. The iPod is an output-only device because that's what the vast majority of people on the run are going to use it for. PDAs - for me and countless others I have spoken to - proved to be more of a hassle to use than anything else. The only people I find still buying PDAs do so for the "oooh it's a new toy" factor.

YOU FAIL IT

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Anonymous Coward]

A few notes on why my iPod is a better solution than that.

1. I keep my music library in my hip pocket. No need to worry about damage from extreme temperatures or loss due to theft, resulting in the need to "take all of 15 minutes to burn the disc again".

2. Changing CD's while you drive is neither easy nor safe. I cue up long playlists before I start driving, and can ignore the controls for my entire trip.

3. 10 GB may seem like overkill to somebody who's married to the idea of using disks, but once you have it you will wonder how you ever tollerated less.

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Psychopundit]

Well, each person has different priorities. I just don't want to organize my music across a slew of CDs. I'd rather dump to a hard drive, organize playlists, use random shuffle across across artists, albums, or the whole collection, etc... To me a portable mp3 player with a 20gig hd (minimum) is a better solution. Perhaps if I already had an in dash CD player that could read MP3's, it wouldn't have been necessary to move to something like the Neuros.

As far as whether or not 700megs is a big limitation or not...I guess that's all relative. I have ripped almost 120 gigs of music. For me, 20 gigs can feel like a limitation at times. Again though, if I already had a way to play my mp3's in the car, I'd probably be fine.

The wrong reason for the increase

[tif]

The referenced articles says "...the number of paying music downloaders doubled in the first half of 2003 -- coinciding with the [RIAA] announcement that they intended to begin prosecuting file-sharers ..." How ignorant. The RIAAs litigious behavior has nothing to do with it. Paying downloaders increased because sites offering to sell music increased.
--tif

Re:The wrong reason for the increase

[Anonymous Coward]

The number of paying music downloaders doubled in the first half of 2003 -- coinciding with the US invasion of Iraq.

Braking news:

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony sues single mother of 12 for MP3 piracy.
In other news:
Sony posts record profit on sales of MP3 players...

Easier solution

[artemis67]

Go to Radio Shack, get a cassette adapter that will allow you to hook up and play your portable MP3 player through the car's cassette player.

Re:Easier solution

[Pieroxy]

1. That will destroy you cassette player after a while
2. Quality SUCKs big time, unless you re-adjust the cassette inside the player every 5 minutes.

Other than that, nothing to report ;-)

Why I haven't bought one.

[cosmosis]

Because until they can make it slide into my dash to act as a car stereo device AND easily hook into my home stereo AND easily be seen as anohter hard drive on my computer AND NOT cost over $500 AND come with at least 20GB of memory, I don't see any reason to get one.

What I really want

[Fjord]

What I'm looking for in MP3 playing is an in-dash unit (DIN5) that can read DVD-R filesystems and play the mp3s from there, basically giving days worth of music on a disc. For portable players, theres the Sony MPD-AP20U to do this, but what is a car player than can do this? I haven't been able to find one.

Re:What I really want

[karnal]

I recently purchased a new (to me) car, and was amazed that a 1999 model car would come factory with a cassette deck.

I fumbled around with an old FM transmitter I have to play from my minidisc player to it, but was very unhappy with the quality. So I sprung for a Clarion head unit, with MP3 playing capability. Awesome!

Even more recently, my girlfriend bought me a DVD recorder for our anniversary... so now I'm thinking to myself "Instead of having these 7 cd's burnt with mp3's in my car, I could have one DVD!".....

Maybe in 2 years or so they'll have the DVD readers that will play mp3's in cars.... to be honest, it's an awesome idea, but I doubt a lot of people would buy them -- probably less so than even the people who buy the mp3 players for the car (and use the mp3 capibilities, instead of springing for the headunit because of the "pretty lights".... grrrr.)

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Anonymous Coward]

FM radio only transmits 50 Hz-15 kHz

Which given proper reception is not *THAT* bad. You'll have to remember that many car stereo systems are only capable of reproducing those frequencies. You say you can hear it, but I bet it's mostly psychological... Or radio interference.

In fact, I'd bet most OEM speakers can only go as low as 75 or 90Hz, and they'd be lucky to hit 13KHz.

Radio is fine for people who want to drive and listen to the music (eg most people). If you want to drive, and listen to your 1337 stereo setup with dual 14" subs, then obviously radio is probably not going to cut it.

Re:+5 yrs -- "Music industry has record year again

[mcubed]

In terms of being a union of artists, the RIAA does a pretty horrible job of representing the average joe in their ranks.

The RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) is not a union of artists, nor does it represent them. It is a trade organization, dominated by the same five international conglomerates that control the commercial distribution of more than 80% of music worldwide. When you think "RIAA," don't think Tony Bennett or Robert Plant or even Lars Ulrich -- think Bertlesmann AG, Time-Warner, Vivendi, Sony, and EMI. Kinda funny how underrepresented U.S. corporations are in this "American" trade association.

Pure speculation, but my guess is that the online distribution services are doing what they can to get profitable sales right now for the RIAA. When they've shored up their business model and have negotiated their next round of iron-clad, longer-term contracts, the online distributors may go into the business of replacing the RIAA with contracts directly with studios or artists directly.

The RIAA are the studios, though I believe the term label is appropo. Still, I think you're right that this whole battle ... from day 1 ... has been about control of distribution. Prior to Napster, the RIAA-members who wield all the power had it locked up worldwide. Any kind of effective on-line distribution begins to rust that lock. In a few years, it might be possible for lesser-known recording artists than Pearl Jam to go it alone, whether completely independently or grouped into informal artists' collectives. Those types of things have always been around -- look at Elephant 6 -- but they don't get the wide exposure of a major-label artist who's label funnels money to Clear Channel so his song will be one of the 25 that Clear Channel's 1200 radio stations play this month, nor do they have the distribution clout to get their CDs into mall stores across the country. It will be much easier for them to break into one or more of the competing download services, which are going to have to start distinguishing themselves from each other to attract customers.

Michael

fucking morons

[Anonymous Coward]

of course sales are up, it's christmas!
Buy buy buy! Why is this news?

I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[coinreturn]

Your comparison to the iPod is pretty one-sided.

1) Okay, so iHP-120 is cheaper by a whopping $29 (aka 7%) Big deal.
2) Surround sound? Are you telling me you're setting up a surround system to a PORTABLE music player. Ha! And since when is surround sound important for MUSIC?
3) USB2.0? Who frigging cares? Firewire kicks ass.
4) Built in radio? Um, with up to 40 gigs of music I LIKE on hand, I am NOT tuning to some commercial-laden mainstream swill music.
5) WMA support - irrelevant.
6) iPod is practically a PDA - storing your contacts, calendar, notes.
7) iPod plays songs from iTunes Music Store - iRiver does not.

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[Anonymous Coward]

And only the iPod offers an educational discount to students, faculty, and staff -- $269, $369, or $469 for the various models.

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[cens0r]

2) Surround sound? Are you telling me you're setting up a surround system to a PORTABLE music player. Ha! And since when is surround sound important for MUSIC?

SRS surround sound will work through headphones, or when you hook it up to a stereo. It may not be a deal breaker, but it is a nice feature. I very often listen to music in surround sound on my stereo when I'm not doing critical listening.

3) USB2.0? Who frigging cares? Firewire kicks ass.

What if you don't have firewire? USB 2.0 is backwards compatible with USB 1.1 which everyone should have. Given the choice I would prefer firewire myself, but if I were interested in syncing with multiple machines USB would be the way to go.

Built in radio? Um, with up to 40 gigs of music I LIKE on hand, I am NOT tuning to some commercial-laden mainstream swill music.

Not all radio is commercial. Say I'm on my way to work and want to flip over to NPR to hear the news. Or I want to hear an interview with a band I like on the greatest radio station in the world (KEXP). Just because you might not see the point of a feature doesn't mean it's not great for some people.

5) WMA support - irrelevant.

Not if you want to buy songs from any of the other music services besides iTunes. They all use WMA. So with the iRiver, I get a choice of music stores.

6) iPod is practically a PDA - storing your contacts, calendar, notes.

So, you can harp on features you think our dumb but then say a feature a lot of other people think is dumb is great? I have a PDA, so this is an unimportant feature. Why do I need another set of contacts (address book, PDA, phone). I'd much rather have a radio.

7) iPod plays songs from iTunes Music Store - iRiver does not.

iPod does not play music from buymusic.com, napster 2.0, musicmatch, or any of the future music stores that are going to use WMA. The iRiver can. So technically the iRiver gives you more choice in this regard.

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[core_blimey]

What if you don't have firewire? USB 2.0 is backwards compatible with USB 1.1 which everyone should have. Given the choice I would prefer firewire myself, but if I were interested in syncing with multiple machines USB would be the way to go.

The iPod (new ones) support USB 2.0 anyway. I personally run Firewire on my home machine, but work only has built in USB 2.0 ports, so get the cable and it works a treat!

Not if you want to buy songs from any of the other music services besides iTunes. They all use WMA. So with the iRiver, I get a choice of music stores.

What buy DRM tainted music files??? on slashdot? You aren't serious are you? Actually, I don't use iTunes Store (Being in Australia and all) and never will. The ability to play either WMA or Apples own fluff is pretty mute. MP3's are fine for the commute on the train.

So, you can harp on features you think our dumb but then say a feature a lot of other people think is dumb is great? I have a PDA, so this is an unimportant feature. Why do I need another set of contacts (address book, PDA, phone). I'd much rather have a radio.

I agree with you on this one I must say. Sometimes it would be nice to flick on the radio and listen to something unexpected. The contact stuff is rather useless if you ask me.

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[cens0r]

The iPod (new ones) support USB 2.0 anyway. I personally run Firewire on my home machine, but work only has built in USB 2.0 ports, so get the cable and it works a treat!

That does require an optional cable does it not? I'm no expert on the iPod (if I were to buy a player it would be a Rio Karma), but if one only had USB as an option; I wouldn't purchase something that had optional USB support.

What buy DRM tainted music files??? on slashdot? You aren't serious are you? Actually, I don't use iTunes Store (Being in Australia and all) and never will. The ability to play either WMA or Apples own fluff is pretty mute. MP3's are fine for the commute on the train.

I didn't say I buy them. I was just making a point. I think the idea of buying a digital file is kind of silly, I'd rather have the CD; but both WMA and AAC from music stores contain DRM. It all comes down to which store do you want to shop at, and the iPod only gives you one choice.

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[core_blimey]

That does require an optional cable does it not? I'm no expert on the iPod (if I were to buy a player it would be a Rio Karma), but if one only had USB as an option; I wouldn't purchase something that had optional USB support.

Yes true, you have to get the cable to do it. Worst part is it doesn't seem to charge when only plugged into USB... I thought 2.0 supplied power as well, but I'd have to look that up. The cable was only AU$35 though, so it's not that big a deal really. I'll stick to Firewire on the cradle at home and USB 1.1 or 2.0 when I'm out and about on a random PC. Bonus part of the USB Cable is it's both USB and Firewire... so you take that 1 cable and plug into either as needed! Worked great on the iMac in the Lab.

It all comes down to which store do you want to shop at, and the iPod only gives you one choice.

Well I think we both agree it's a mute point... my music is all ripped from my CD's. Who wants to pay for something restricted to your player or current computer collection. I'd consider buying plain old mp3's or Vorbis or FLAC or... anything non-DRM'd but otherwise why would I want to restrict myself when I could borrow a copy off a friend or download from KazZa/Gnutella? WMA Scares me more than AAC though... do we really want more Microsoft "Choice"?

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[coinreturn]

SRS surround sound will work through headphones, or when you hook it up to a stereo.

Surround sound is useless with music recorded in two channels or played in two channels (headphones).

What if you don't have firewire? USB 2.0 is backwards compatible with USB 1.1 which everyone should have.

Everyone should have? I think everyone should have firewire! Especially since sync'ing over USB 1.1 would take 3.5 lifetimes.

Say I'm on my way to work and want to flip over to NPR to hear the news

So your car doesn't have a radio in it, huh?

So, you can harp on features you think our [sic] dumb but then say a feature a lot of other people think is dumb is great?

I wasn't claiming that the PDA-like features were some sort of dealmaker. If you check my post, I said that the original iRiver poster's comments were one-sided. I pointed out some pluses about the iPod that he did not. I do not pretend to have presented a balanced view. I was presenting the other side that he omitted.

iPod does not play music from buymusic.com, napster 2.0, musicmatch, or any of the future music stores that are going to use WMA.

I'm sorry, but that comment is just downright hilarious! WMA is a proprietary format owned by Microsoft. The stores you mention have SO MUCH LESS CLOUT than Apple to make deals with the record labels and don't have anything I can't get from iTMS. Not to mention the restrictive DRM. Any future store that uses WMA? Oh, there's a catch-all. Apple can make zippo on music and still make money on the iPods; the other stores you mention can't do that.

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[cens0r]

veryone should have? I think everyone should have firewire! Especially since sync'ing over USB 1.1 would take 3.5 lifetimes.

When I said everyone should have USB, I meant that almost all computers out there are equipped with at least USB. Sure all new computers should have firewire, but we all don't have a new computer.

So your car doesn't have a radio in it, huh? If I was driving to work this would be a mute arguement, and I wouldn't even be carrying an MP3 player as my car also has a cd player and tape deck. I take public transportation to work though so having a radio on my portable player is a big deal to me.

I'm sorry, but that comment is just downright hilarious! WMA is a proprietary format owned by Microsoft. The stores you mention have SO MUCH LESS CLOUT than Apple to make deals with the record labels and don't have anything I can't get from iTMS. Not to mention the restrictive DRM. Any future store that uses WMA? Oh, there's a catch-all. Apple can make zippo on music and still make money on the iPods; the other stores you mention can't do that.

And the DRM on AAC bought from the iTMS is a proprietary format owned by apple. If it wasn't you'd see hundreds of other players supporting it.

Why does any other store have less clout than Apple? Places like best buy, dell, wal-mart are all much bigger corporations than apple is. Plus if Microsoft gets into the game, they will have much more clout.

If you look at the other stores I bet they all have something that you can't get at the others. But at least with a WMA player you have a choice of which store to shop at (or all of them), Apple only gives you the one choice.

All the stores also have DRM that is mostly equivalent. There are a few that are worse, but they are the exception not the rule and will quickly be weeded out.

Well napster is making money on napster branded music players. MusicMatch and BuyMusic.com are making money by licensing their music stores to others. I personally would rather buy a MP3 player that isn't being marked up enough to help pay for the music store. That's why if I where to purchase a HD player now I would pick the Rio Karma. The only downside to it is that there is no radio. I would also consider the nomad zen mx and the iHP-120. But non have the featureset I'm really looking for right now.

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I think we both agree it's a mute point...

No we don't, because the word you're looking for is 'moot'. MOOT. Get it right.

Re:I'm not impressed by your iRiver iHP-120

[coinreturn]

If you look at the other stores I bet they all have something that you can't get at the others. But at least with a WMA player you have a choice of which store to shop at (or all of them), Apple only gives you the one choice.

Actually, BuyMusic and Napster only give you one choice - you can't even browse the music selection if you're not running Windows!

Well napster is making money on napster branded music players.

I wonder why their website doesn't advertise them then.

And the DRM on AAC bought from the iTMS is a proprietary format owned by apple. If it wasn't you'd see hundreds of other players supporting it.

Yet, Musicmatch doesn't support plain old AAC.

Why does any other store have less clout than Apple?

Read before ranting! I didn't say any other store. I said The stores you mention have SO MUCH LESS CLOUT than Apple. That is, BuyMusic, Napster, MusicMatch. Yes, the Microsoft empire will probably move in like the hulking elephant it is, but until then, iTMS is the cross-platform solution.

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[nolife]

I've heard quite a few FM setups and although I agree with your limitations, I believe your opinion is too heavily weighted on the quality (or lack) of commercial FM broadcasts. It's not audio cd quality but definately better quality then any radio station I've ever heard, add to the fact that your listening to compressed audio anyway and in a moving car and it turns into a very good alternative.

what does digital mean?

[Anonymous Coward]

"US music downloaders owned a digital music player"

Isn't a CD "digital music"?

Shouldn't a CD player be considered a "digital music player"?

Re: iPod?

[ProfessionalCookie]

Which is exactly the reason I got a 20 gig iPod. My library is about 12 gigs right now which leaves me quite a bit of room to grow (I'm not going to say no one will ever use more than 20 gigs [read:640K] ).

I'd have gone for the 40 gig but the 20 is thinner. Check out the difference before you buy.

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Zathrus]

I believe your opinion is too heavily weighted on the quality (or lack) of commercial FM broadcasts

Probably true. Commercial FM just plain sucks, and to the point that it's audible even in the miserable audio environment of a car.

Re: iPod?

[cens0r]

Hmmm... i can't say that I would never use 20 gigs. But that is enough for 40+ albums recorded in FLAC. If the thing holds more data then it can play on one charge (which I would assume 40 albums would be), it has more space then I would ever need.

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[cens0r]

1. I keep my music library in my hip pocket. No need to worry about damage from extreme temperatures or loss due to theft, resulting in the need to "take all of 15 minutes to burn the disc again".

So your ipod is somehow immune to dammage from extreme temperatures, theft, or the hard drive going out? I think it would take longer than 15 minutes to replace if anything went wrong.

2. Changing CD's while you drive is neither easy nor safe. I cue up long playlists before I start driving, and can ignore the controls for my entire trip.

I don't know about you, but 99% of my trips are less than the length of a CD. Not to mention that those that are longer include frequent stops for gas etc. And that's an audio CD. If I had a head unit that played MP3's burned on to a CD, I would never drive anywhere where I wouldn't need to stop before the CD ran out.

3. 10 GB may seem like overkill to somebody who's married to the idea of using disks, but once you have it you will wonder how you ever tollerated less.

To me having any more information than the thing can play on one charge is pointless. If I have to recharge the damn thing, I may as well put new music on it. The onl advantage to have more space to me would be if the player supported FLAC so I wouldn't have to re-encode my music before transfering it to a portable device.

And, this, friends, is why audiophiles...

[uptownguy]

Probably true. Commercial FM just plain sucks, and to the point that it's audible even in the miserable audio environment of a car.

And, this, friends, is why audiophiles get the rap that they do...

We are living in a time of utter magic. We can get into a metal box and travel quickly, in warmth and comfort, to places far away. At the press of a button, we can listen to recorded music, of our own choosing. We can get that music with a few simple clicks in our own homes. Or, we can tune in to signals that are freely available and broadcast over the AIR WAVES, listening to music, news, sports or even "message boards" (call in shows) where we can contribute.

The sound quality of all of these is great... Even on AM radio it is good enough for what people are interested in: the content.

We listen to music, to news, to whatever because we are interested in the content. And even with Clear Channel, even with the recording industry feeding us the same thing again and again or whatever else problem you might manufacture -- it is still magical to me that I can flick a switch and get all of this free content sounding as great as it does.

Sorry we don't live in Star Trek world soon enough for you. Sorry that it isn't an exact reproduction, if you actually think FM quality "sucks" -- and you aren't just being a snob to make a point to fellow snobs about how snobbish you can be.

Re:And, this, friends, is why audiophiles...

[Zathrus]

Wow, I'm so sorry to disappoint you. Now go take your flaming off to someone it applies to.

In the case of music it is the very content that suffers. I'm not talking about talk radio (which I listen to far more than I do music at this point, and for which AM is perfectly acceptable, much less FM), I'm talking about actual music. And yes, there is content in the lyrics, but there's also content in the actual (shock) music. And commercial FM mangles the hell out of that music. Not moderately -- severely. This isn't an audiophile thing either. If I was a died in the wool audiophile do you think I'd be using stock speakers and head unit? I am. And I even listen to commercial FM too. And ClearChannel! The horror of horrors.

I suggest that you get over yourself and realize what on earth you're saying in the first place. If you actually do enjoy the music, instead of just having it on as background noise (which is fine too, but it's not at all the same) then you'd be able to tell the rather startling difference between commercial FM broadcasts and CD quality sound. They're not even remotely alike.

Oh, and to get back to where this thread originally was, before you decided to go wildly off topic and vet your own pet peeve, if the Neuros does do full FM spectrum (which I have no reason to doubt), 50 Hz-15 kHz is more than adequate for nearly all cars. You'd need an upgraded audio system to hear much more than that, and I doubt you'd get much out of it since cars are pretty miserable audio environments.

Re:Grammar wrongo

[Anonymous Coward]

And the sales of Ogg-capable hardware are up, too, since there finally is some.

This is actually two separate sentences, joined by the connective "since." The second sentence reads as follows: "There finally is some [Ogg-capable hardware]." As you can see, the object of the sentence, "Ogg-capable hardware," is not explicitly restated, but implied by context. "Hardware," as previously noted, is singular; therefore, the word "is" does indeed agree with its subject.

In summary: Do us all a favor, shut the fuck up and stop stroking your ego, you arrogant cunt, because you're wrong. QED.

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[gnu-generation-one]

If you don't like transmitting on commercial radio frequencies, you can get a device which plugs into car cassette players, and lets you attach a CD player, MP3 player, etc. They cost about $10, and look like a black cassette with a wire and 3.5mm plug attached

Re:there is some sales.

[Anonymous Coward]

No. You're the moron. See my post here.

Jesus Christ.

The trouble is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Its so damned ugly.

The iPod could have a lot more features, but it works pretty well, its attractive, and it works.

Re:Digital music player? don't you mean HDD?

[cens0r]

Although most flash players have removable media, which can be replaced when it wears out.

Define "easy"

[extra88]

You can rather easily convert protected AAC's ... to MP3.

The only way I know of is to burn AAC's to CD-R (or RW so you can erase and re-use) then rip it to MP3. I wouldn't call that easy, especially since the ripped MP3s won't have ID3 tags (well, if you burn an entire AAC album it might, if the times are a close enough match to the times on the pressed CD).

I'm aware of the recent work to use QuickTime to strip the protection from protected AACs but that still not in the realm of "easy."

Re:Define "easy"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll give you a hint - you can export unencrypted audio from a protected mp4 file using one of the standard bits of software installed on every mac.

Re:Grammar wrongo

[Anonymous Coward]

Do us all a favor, shut the fuck up and stop stroking your ego, you arrogant cunt, because you're wrong. QED.

This is a run-on sentence. A comma should not be used to connect two independent clauses; use a semicolon or conjunction instead. You could also write the two independent clauses as separate sentences.

QED is used after the conclusion of a line of reasoning, as in a mathematical proof. It is not used to add emphasis to a command.

Or just make them into audio CD's

[MadAnthony02]

Or in their cars (many cars have MP3 capable CD players now, and virtually all OEM head units are MP3 capable

I would guess there are also a ton of people who simply download MP3'S and burn them to cd's as audio CD's. That's what I do, and I've been doing it for the last 5 years. Sure, CD's are bulky, but I can get them free after rebate any day of the week, and throw them out when I get tired of them - and they run in any cd player. I remeber back in '98 when I had to use WinAmp to convert them to WAV files before burning in EZ CD Creator 3, now Nero burns audio CD's straight from mp3's.

The funny thing is I actually own an iPod, but still use cd's in my car. I bought a Transpodder, but it was a pain and not very clear, and it's easier to hit skip on a car cd player than an iPod. And less likely to get stolen.

For the bargain-hunter....

[Trogre]

...the iRiver iMP-400 looks promising

No uploading required. Just pop in your OGG/MP3 CD and you're away.

Ogg Vorbis support is in the works (via afirmware update), and can happily co-exist with the other codecs in firmware.

These guys seem pretty serious about vorbis. It's great to finally see a manufacturer taking this position.

Ha ha ha, you tool

[Anonymous Coward]

"the only other alternatives for unrepentant music thieves"

You mean shoplifter? Or do you mean the international thieves that copy thousands and millions of CD's illegally?

Oh, you're talking about little briana, the 13 year old girl who loaded kazaa. That little bitch, stealing from the music companies.

Let me clue you in, idiot boy. Some of us have been copying for years, and there's no way to cath us. I buy CD's. I bought 50 of them last year. But I probably downloaded 5 times that many, in a high-quality format. I simply won't be caught. Impossible.

You're one of those people who believe in cosmic justice and karma. But there is no such thing. Only suckers, and people who know how to *work* the system. You might be somebody who knows how to work the system, but its far more likely that you're a *sucker*.

Go ahead. Pay $16 for a CD. HA HA HA HA HA. That is the dictionary definition of a *sucker*.

Re: iPod?

[sys$manager]

I just got one of these last night, it's the coolest device ever. My library is full of shitty encodes so all 800 songs come in under 2GB.

Belkin Recorder Is Total Crap

[meehawl]

The iPod can record with a Belkin add-on mic

The Belkin add-on costs $50, records at 8KHz mono, drains your battery, and sounds like crap. It also has terible recording and UI options. Edison got better fidelity with wax cylinders, and probably more flexibility.

Want to know more?

http://www.ipodlounge.com/reviews_more.php?id=P171 4_0_6_0_C

Re:perhaps more surprising-get a copywriter!

[TygerFish]

I've got some mod points and when I saw this, I thought at first that I would just mod this thing down, but I don't think that would really address the issue with this post, because it also has all the hallmarks of good copywriting. In other words, it's an advertisement and there are strong arguments to support the conclusion that the poster is a professional copywriter:

1. His grammar and spelling are flawless.
2. It starts out with a story to get your attention.
3. He is very articulate (when was the last time you saw 'viola' ('look here!' in French sans accent mark)
4. The note took time to write and it is very well-structured.
5. The final paragraph addresses arguments against ignoring the information in the ad ('...works as advertised. Support folk...price...') and it contains an exhortation, a 'call-to-action' which is reccomended in copywriting ('Check it out') in addition to a favorable comparison to a well-known, popular product ('I'd take one of these over an iPod any day.').

Now, I can't prove it's an advertisement, but everything about it smells like one. It feels like one, and I personally think that slashdot should not be an unpaid forum for professionally written text advertising. If you think otherwise, post this.

I'd never liked professional copywriting before, but one day, I saw a bit of it on Slashdot that caught my attention. The writer was smart, easy going, articulate, and full of the brown but in the most tasteful way possible.

Now, I think slashdot is a great place to advertise. If you do too, write Cowboy Neal and tell him to solicite copywriting!

Are they counting phones, like Bluetooth?

[Kris_J]

Bluetooth sales sudden spiked because it was being included in new mobile phones. Same for MP3 playback. My mobile can play MP3s, though I only use the ability for ringtones. And with some extra software my phone can play Ogg Vorbis files too. If everyone with a Series 60 phone installed OggPlay, would the number of portable devices capable of playing Ogg Vorbis files be considered to have gone up?

Has Everyone forgotten?

[David the Great]

Has everyone forgotten minidisc?

5+ hours on a single $2 disc, one battery lasts 50+ hours in a player. ~$100 for a good player.

I think minidisc speaks for itself...

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been looking at these for awhile - with the latest firmware (1.45), they support OGG, and they're clearing out inventory - $199.00

Possible cause?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you mention MP3, the first thing that (most) people think of is illegal copying of copyrighted music, etc. And some especially sensative--or cautious--people might not want to be seen in public with one.
Now granted, you can buy/legally download some MP3's. But, let's face it, any teenager has downloaded an MP3 without paying for it at least once in their lifetime. And so people might be waiting on purchasing an MP3 player because they don't want their friends/associates/relatives seeing them with 'evil' and 'illegal' MP3's.
But now, with iPod and other such legal MP3 sites, the bad rep of MP3 is starting to dissolve, that it is possible to 'legally' own an MP3 file. And so naturally more people will want hardware that they can use to play these 'legal' MP3's.

Does this sound right, people?

Re:perhaps more surprising - Ach, get a neuros!

[Zebbers]

are you insane?
OVER FM?
cds are difficult? ummm...I can burn a new, what 10 cent? cd in the morning while showering, go outside pop it in the deck and have 700MB/5=APPROX 140 songs to play? When I do want to switch music I pop in a new cd? Are you insane. Car MP3 cd players are awesome, theres a reason they are around and no HD based unit is really popular other than a showpiece.

Car Mp3 CD decks are plentiful 200$ right now.

I have a feeling your post was just a shitty ad.

Re:perhaps more surprising-get a copywriter!

[JoeBorn]

FWIW, I can vouch that he's no one that we've paid. It's not an ad, really:)

Re:perhaps more surprising-get a copywriter!

[Psychopundit]

TygerFish, Thanks for the analysis, and how kind of you to notice. In fact, I am a professional writer, but I am in no way affiliated with Neuros or Digital Innovations except as a happy and paying customer. lol I happen to think the Neuros is a great product at a great price. I value that they have embraced open source, that there is community development, and that the company participates actively in the user forums. I realize it's not the ideal solution for everybody...the truth is, any player (or any product, for that matter) involves compromise. I would take my Neuros over an iPod any day (for reasons mentioned above, and more). I do enjoy spreading the word about the product. However, I don't think that expressing that this might be a viable alternative for someone looking at MP3 players is necessarily antithetical to the charter of Slashdot. -Psychopundit ps: I posted as AC cause I didn't realize I wasn't logged in.

Re:perhaps more surprising-get a copywriter!

[Psychopundit]

Ach!

Bitten by the Preview bug again!

Not support in my book

[coinreturn]

Note, the DB functions described in the manual are not available at this time, as the index can not be created with Mac OS. This means that Album, Artist, Genre, and Title searching will not be available.

Um, that is not support.

account created today, 20 posts pro-neuros

[sacrilicious]

I posted as AC cause I didn't realize I wasn't logged in.

At the time that I write this your account has only posted 20 or so comments ever... all of them today, all of them on this one topic, all of them pushing the neuros. This doesn't prove that you are affiliated with Neuros, but such single-minded use of your account does lend plausibility to the notion. If your account posts significant numbers of insightful or thoughtful items in the future regarding topics that are not mp3 players, your story will become corresponingly more believable.

Re:account created today, 20 posts pro-neuros

[Psychopundit]

Yeah,

Well, there's no proving to you if you already have your minds made up. You are indeed correct that my account is new today (yesterday) and that I've posted less than 20 messages. You might even be curious why that is. Certainly leaping to the conclusion that I'm a paid mole for Digital Innovations/Neuros is one conclusion you could jump to.

However, there is another explanation. Mainly, that I had an account ages ago...I'm talking pre Natalie Portman...pre Hot Grits...pre goatguy...pre VA Linux...pre mod revision...back even before the days when mentioning Slashdot on your resume would get you noticed by brainless HR drones (thankfully, this bit of fluff has gone by the wayside). When I left grad school and got a 9-X job, I first forgot my password, then after time, my account name, eventually I stopped even looking at Slashdot. Thanks to Mozilla/Firebird's tabbed browsing, I have recently been able to set /. as on of several industry related sites that open when I start the browser. So naturally, I started reading more slashdot, posting anonymously, and generally following what's going on. I figured that since I was participating, I might as well get an account (especially since /. limits the number of AC posts per day per IP address). Also, it gets tedious to have to manually set article settings (0,Nested, Oldest First) every tiem I want to read a discussion.

There you have it. The explanation. No doubt you will find reasons that it is not good enough, fraught with holes, and basically a lame attempt to distract you from uncovering the vast Neuros advertising campaign being perpetrated on /.

On a related note, it is amusing that your suspicions are so easily raised. What you have here is nothing more than someone who enjoys discourse and wanted to participate on a topic he is knowledgeable about and has an opinion on.

Go ahead and flame me for it, or try to manufacture conspiratorial motivations...but when it comes right down to it, whether you are right or wrong (and you ARE wrong in your assertion), it all amounts to nothing more than twaddle in a hill of beans.

You may not like me participating, you may take offense to the number of posts, you may even take umbrage at the fact that all my non-AC posts have been in the past day and on one topic. To me, it's called participation.

---

Oh, and by your count, I guess this makes 21 posts in 2 days! Surely I must be paid to do this!

agreed

[Anonymous Coward]

IMO you nailed it. And I'm with this guy.

Oops, posted AC because I realized I wasn't logged in. ;)

Re:Grammar wrongo

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew some idiot would call me on that, but you're still wrong, idiot, because you misinterpreted my intent. I was not using commas to connect the two independent clauses; I was using them as delimiters to separate the three clauses, to wit:

1. Do us all a favor.
2. Shut the fuck up.
3. Stop stroking your ego.

I chose to omit the comma before the third clause because, as I'm sure you're aware, a comma is generally held to be unnecessary before the last item in a list.

As for QED (quod erat demonstratum, Latin for "thus, it is demonstrated"), I know perfectly well what it means. I know that my usage, strictly speaking, could be considered improper. But you know what? I didn't give a fuck then, and I don't give a fuck now.

For pointing out a mistake I did not make--and for refusing to admit your error regarding the plural/singular issue at the root of this thread, assuming you're the same poster--you have merely drawn attention to the fact that you are an idiot. The last thing the world needs is another unrepentantly egotistical idiot like you. Therefore, you deserve to die. Thus, it is demonstrated. You can thank me later.

Well....

[TygerFish]

Well...

If you say you weren't writing an ad for them, and they say they weren't paying you, then I suppose I'm wrong and that post looks so much like an ad because you are just that good. :-)

More power to you.

Re:Well....

[Psychopundit]

Thanks for the compliment, I think. But really, I was just trying to participate. I didn't really think that post sounded like an advertisement and I didn't write it with the motivation to help Neuros sell anything. I wrote it because I had some thoughts on the topic at hand and also had an opinion that the Neuros while not perfect, does have some great functionality at a great price.

And please, I wish you'd redact your statement about my grammar being perfect. ;P

Re: participation

[sacrilicious]

when it comes right down to it, whether you are right or wrong (and you ARE wrong in your assertion)

Keep in mind that *I* never asserted that you were paid to work for the industry... I asserted that your pattern of single-topic posting lent credibility to the assertion. It is a subtle but important distinction. I'm essentially stating that if you are indeed nothing but a happy customer, we still find ourselves in circumstances that prevent anyone from assessing a history of postings that might substantiate your allegiances or secularity. I didn't intend this as an attack on you; I intended it mostly as an explanation to you in case you really are simply a new member who might not have a well-formed notion of how credibility is sometimes assessed on this forum.

it all amounts to nothing more than twaddle in a hill of beans.

Yummy, yummy beans. :)

Re: participation

[Psychopundit]

Well as I tried to explain, I'm a new account, but not a new reader of Slashdot. I was certainly naive in that I didn't realize an informal discussion of mp3 players would call my credibility into question. After all, I'm not recommending firewall settings, kernel mods, or something mission critical. But you are right, there is no way to assess my credibility. And I don't think it's worth anyone's time to continue trying to do so. What I marvel at is the forensics employed to "suggest" that I'm being paid to contribute. A well structured post that conveys to the standards of persuasive writing and employs a diction that is not tired. (Note, I'm paraphrasing the actual words of Tyger...I think that's the general gist of it.) I've been reading slashdot on and off for years, and I don't think that it's all that unusual. Still, it was amusing, frusterating, and surreal all at the same time. I'll continue to post on topics that I am interested in...and this means you'll likely be hearing my views on mp3 players as pertinent articles are posted. I will continue to do so in whatever style I enjoy, and you may continue to suggest I'm in the employ of Neuros. I don't feel a particular need to make myself credible because frankly, I don't think anything I said calls into question my credibility as a user of the Neuros and someone who takes an interest in mp3 players in general. If I was passing myself off as a heart surgeon and suggesting everyone should get a shiny new stent implanted in their artery, I could see the concern. How ironic that it is when my credentials as an average joe get called into question that things take a turn for the surreal. Oh well... till next time, I suppose.

Re: participation

[Psychopundit]

grrr...preview button...grrr

Re: participation

[sacrilicious]

I'm not recommending firewall settings, kernel mods, or something mission critical.... I didn't realize an informal discussion of mp3 players [could call credibility into question].

The only essential ingredient is that there be money at stake.

We live in interesting and turbulent times. In the last five years the internet has become the primary battleground in a war between corporate interests and individual freedom. Many companies - for example, Microsoft - have been caught red-handed during their attempts to feign grass-roots support for initiatives that in fact have little grass roots support (they've even got a great term for this: astroturfing). These companies literally pay people to log onto online services, pose as John Q Public, and post casually worded opinions furthering the companys' interests, often including purposely inserted misspellings, grammatical "mistakes", and disarming colloquialisms. The same is true of website construction; a significant percentage of seemingly casual fan websites dedicated pop stars, electronics, etc are done by professional designers on the take from the monied interests that benefit, and are told to purposefully disregard professional standards of layout, font choice, and color matching to make the sites seem authentic. This isn't a matter of speculation; the companies are on record as having admitted this. The only question mark is precisely how much information is falsely fabricated in this manner.

Given this sea change, ferreting out the truth about anything online has become a process that relies heavily on intuition. One of the few factors that truth-seekers have in their favor is the knowledge that substantive, insightful commentary is expensive to generate; it's much cheaper to churn out stuff that sounds like it's coming from an impulse-buying teen than from a thoughtful, middle-aged citizen who cares about budgets and is aware of the effects of politics in everyday life. So when people look for evidence that a writer is authentic, one of the best ways to do it is to look back on a history of that person's output and see if the person appears to be a generally intelligent and multifaceted person, vs someone who focuses on a narrow range of topics that don't seem realistically sustainable. Real people tend to have diverse interests.

What I marvel at is the forensics employed to "suggest" that I'm being paid to contribute. A well structured post that conveys to the standards of persuasive writing and employs a diction that is not tired.

Truthfully, I liked your writing. But Tygerfish is entirely accurate in pointing out that your style bears distinct similarities to advertising. There are in fact formally accepted definitions of advertising; they are, for example, adhered to strictly on NPR to determine the difference between "underwriting" vs "advertising". Specifically, advertising incorporates an combination of comparatives, superlatives, qualitatives, price information, calls to action. In fact, the only advertising device that you did not use - other than those that a written medium cannot support, such as audibly sung lyrics - was an inducement to buy (such as "buy now to get 50% off"). Other than that, your post really was very well aligned with advertising techniques. To state it objectively, your post would never have been accepted as an underwriting message; it falls squarely into the formal guidelines for advertising.

Still, it was amusing, frusterating, and surreal all at the same time.

I definitely hear you. I've been there myself. I'm glad you've started to post, because I think it's going to reveal things to you about how people think that you'll find more of the same, i.e. amusing, frustrating, and surreal. And enlightening. I find that posts in response to my messages grab me much more than responses to other peoples' messages, even when the initial post is basically what I would have said myself. There's something very personal about having words I wrote myself be responded to. Makes me think.

you may continue to suggest I'm in the employ of Neuros.

I'm sorta forecasting I won't. Unless you start issuing coupons. ;)

Best.