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I think these people may disagree with you there.[1]

[1] This is annoying/depressing. I can't think of another non-x86 processor useful enough to act as a server, and still in production. Via, Transmeta, AMD64 might as well be x86 since they're all hamstrung by backwards-compatibility requirements, ARM is a toy (but kicks arse in embedded apps), Itanium is dead, as is Alpha. OK, there are probably a few Crays and mainframes kicking about that it would be pointless to replace, and yes, people do run mailservers on Commodore 64s and the like, but realistically there are only three usable architectures out there: x86, Power and Sparc.
Cell had better be worth the hype, because life will get awfully boring otherwise.

In contract, Microsoft actively encouraged the use of Microsoft-only language features (note: we aren't just talking utility classes here, but totally new syntax!), and in fact developers had to be especially careful to avoid using them unwittingly when using MS's development tools.

Ok, let's try java.sun.com. The JVM, the libraries, JINI, JNI, ... what exactly is missing? (JCP is the Java Community Process, which isn't a spec.)

Seems to me that you can distribute the JVM without difficulty from Sun. To quote:

The J2SE platform and the JRE are free to download and to use for commercial programming. They are also free to redistribute, if distributed with a value-add application or applet.

Seems to me that OpenOffice.org qualifies for that.

If you're a user, there's a link on http://www.java.com. If you're a developer, use the J2SE 5.0 links on http://java.sun.com.

sun sells a linux dist, JDS. so they dislike linux? curious conclusion you've drawn. they may have been slow to come around, but it's seems like a far stretch to say that a company that is selling linux dists dislikes linux.

OK, reality check now people! Linux is a competitor to Sun. It competes with Solaris. Sun would not want RedHat (main Linux distro cited by Sun people as "the enemy") to have Java.

Competitor as in, Sun offers linux products ?

I've actually bought three generic PC's (Great Quality brand) at about $200 each, and all of them are working fine, several years later.

Have a look at this : http://www.sun.com/

If they were trying to release source code as a seperate effort wouldn't the Apache group be a likely outlet ?

Sun already released source code of Java 1.5:
http://www.sun.com/software/communitysource/j2se/j ava2/download.xml

It's under Sun Community Source License or under Java Research License. Obviously, none of these is GPL compatible.

Tell me please: Why should I, as an end user, download and use Apache's Harmony instead of using SUN's "real" Java. They are both "free" for me to obtain. In short, I wouldn't. I also believe that for software that requires Java, application developers will continue to direct users to http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download.html. So there you go!

is Balmer starting to look more and more like Hannibal Lector?

Any takers on gimping Balmer's face onto robocop's or would that be taboo (robocop being the good guy and all)

Sorry...

Everybody is focusing on those two guys smiling together, instead of looking at why they called the press release together, and why what they announced is considered important enough to warrant a Ballmer/McNealy co-presentation!

The reason why this is news, is that both companies, along with a ton of other groups of all sorts of sizes and purposes, have been working on creation of standards that will allow web authentication on the internet to cross boundaries of OS platform, browser platform, and development platform. The Metadata Exchange and Interop protocols are just two of a whole HOST of protocols that are going to link everything up.

Some of you will say - who cares? But the technology they are working on now will be used in the future by most people, on most platforms, to access protected web content.

That's pretty big. This little niche of the industry is set to explode into mainstream consciousness, just wait and see...

If you want to be ahead of the curve:

Check out the Fact Sheet from the MS-Sun announcement.

Check out the WS-* White Paper

Check out Microsoft's Vision For an Identity Metasystem

Check out the Liberty Alliance Technology Review

And if prefer blogs to White Papers, check out Kim Cameron's Blog. That's really the happening place in Identity Management right now...

Pixie

It's hard to find much on the technology, but some info is here. Liberty continues to be a win mainly for the corporate IP lawyers as they work to find ways to share customer information between the fortune 500. Meanwhile, most of the WS-* stack is not in any standards committee, and thus not availble to free and open source projects. I think the identity system that actually catches on will be 100% FOSS - probably based on SAML 2.0 - and spring from the grassroots, rather than from some corporate entities that would like to be our "identity providers."

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/ StringBuilder.html .
They're great. You can modify them and they aren't synchronized so they're fast, too. If these scientists are only just now discovering them they should try reading some newsgroups.

I think it's just incompetence or bad design on the part of Sun rather than a deliberate decision

Right, I don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence either.

But.. I don't feel Sun has done enough to discourage this stuff. I've seen Sun example code using com.sun classes. Usually saying "You shouldn't really use this".

The sloppiness does actually extend to the public API in places, too.

Personally (and perhaps somewhat sadistically) I'd like to see Sun just rename all internal packages in com.sun.* for no other reason than to break those bad apps and have people fix them. If write-once-run-anywhere is as important as Sun makes it out to be, they should.

Oh, for crying out loud! You're reading far too much into that license. Yes, Mozilla with Java is an acceptable "bundle." As for "supercede", Sun is referring to components replacing their own components. i.e. As long as GCJ and Classpath are separate programs on the system, there's no concern. If they overwrite any files in the JDK/JRE, THEN there's a concern.

Tell you what, I'll help you out here. On this webpage is a phone number you can call to resolve licensing issues with Sun. You'll want to record the data/time of the phone call, as well as the representative's name. Ask them about any licensing concerns. Note that since you're speaking with an authorized representative, anything they say is legally binding. (see: Verbal Contract)

*If* you are too chicken to take this step, I'll happily help you out. Give me the authority to contact Sun on the behalf of the White Box Linux Project, and I'll see if I can clarify the issue for you. How about it?

But what none of them can do is redistribute it.

BUT, you can redistribute the existing Linux binaries.

They can't examine it

Can too.

they can't learn from it,

Can too.

they can't change it.

Can too.

The only Linux distros who include it are commercial ones because a free distro is forbidden from it even if they aren't opposed to including un-free binaries.

Bullshit. The Linux distros have been free to include the JRE and JDK for a very long time. They usually give some BS about it "not being Free as in Libre" or somesuch. Are you one of those distro maintainers who's spouting this bullshit?

Once OOo depends on Java it can no longer be freely distributed.

1. It already does, always has.
2. Can too.

You sir, are either amazingly clueless or brainwashed by the OSS fanatics. Allow me to present Sun's open Java development model which allows people to download and develop Java under the Java Research License. Also allow me to introduce you to Sun's position on redistributing the JRE and the rules for JDK redistribution. The long and short of it is, "Feel free to redistribute it with your software. Here is a list of files you can leave out. Here is a list of JDK files that can be bundled with the JRE instead."

OOo is clearly intended to be a Trojan Horse designed to force JAVA dependence.

The only trojan horse around here are the assholes of the Open Source community (apparently like yourself) who would rather spread diseased lies than try to work through the issues to find what's really true.

And in case you're wondering, YES. I'm hopping mad at you people!

But what none of them can do is redistribute it.

BUT, you can redistribute the existing Linux binaries.

They can't examine it

Can too.

they can't learn from it,

Can too.

they can't change it.

Can too.

The only Linux distros who include it are commercial ones because a free distro is forbidden from it even if they aren't opposed to including un-free binaries.

Bullshit. The Linux distros have been free to include the JRE and JDK for a very long time. They usually give some BS about it "not being Free as in Libre" or somesuch. Are you one of those distro maintainers who's spouting this bullshit?

Once OOo depends on Java it can no longer be freely distributed.

1. It already does, always has.
2. Can too.

You sir, are either amazingly clueless or brainwashed by the OSS fanatics. Allow me to present Sun's open Java development model which allows people to download and develop Java under the Java Research License. Also allow me to introduce you to Sun's position on redistributing the JRE and the rules for JDK redistribution. The long and short of it is, "Feel free to redistribute it with your software. Here is a list of files you can leave out. Here is a list of JDK files that can be bundled with the JRE instead."

OOo is clearly intended to be a Trojan Horse designed to force JAVA dependence.

The only trojan horse around here are the assholes of the Open Source community (apparently like yourself) who would rather spread diseased lies than try to work through the issues to find what's really true.

And in case you're wondering, YES. I'm hopping mad at you people!

Sun announced plans to acquire Tarantella, Inc., a leading provider of secure application access software based in Santa Cruz, CA. [...] Sun plans to use Tarantella technology to provide customers with a higher level of secure mobile access to data and applications.

As part of the agreement, Sun will acquire the Secure Global Desktop family of products, which enables organizations to access and manage information, data, and applications across virtually all devices, networks, and platforms [...]

The software employs a flexible and secure three-tier architecture deployed on Solaris OS or Linux. Secure Global Desktop enables applications to be displayed using native protocols without the need for specialized software - a Web browser and Java technology is all that's necessary on the client device or application server.[...]

Most importantly, the software will enable you to present a variety of applications on Sun Ray thin clients -- including those written to Microsoft Windows.

Jonathan Schwartz comments at Acquistions Accelerate Microsoft Interoperability
Tarentella is here

But, I probably won't get modded up because I disagree with RMS. Funny, especialy considering I am pragmatically pro-GPL. I say pragmatic because I support anyone's right to choose the conditions they release their copyrighted works under. I think choosing the GPL is a great choice, but if you aren't comfortable with it, so be it. If Sun wants to release Solaris under the CDDL, or if Sun wants to keep Java proprietary, they have every right. Who am I to complain?

If you feel you *must* fix an issue without using OO techniques, fixing issues "at source" can be accomplished. Sun is now accepting contributions directly into Mustang (the latest pre-release version of Java). See http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2 SE/peabody/ for more info.

A source at Sun said, "OO.o 2 works OK with GCJ" and that "Red Hat has been tremendously helpful in the effort to make that so, filing bug reports etc."

1) The JRE is NOT freely redistributable. Therefore I can't legally add it to my OOo CD's that I pass on to customers and I have to make them download it first.

This is an utterly uninformed statement. The JRE is indeed freely redistributable.

The whole point of the JRE is to allow developers to ship a runtime environment with their products, should a customer require it. If it were not freely distributable, few would develop for Java because there would be no guarantee that a customer would wish to download the JRE separately.

Regarding adding the JRE to OOo CD's that you pass on to customers, some people have done just that; google for this and you will find examples of people adding a JRE folder to the OOo iso.

Why would Sun restrict the distribution of JRE along with OpenOffice.org? It would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Well, let's see... OK, so what you're asking for is that Sun should write a standard for a slimmed-down version of Java, just for PDAs? Say, we could call it Java 2 Micro Edition? And maybe you'd want that standard to be implemented on PocketPC machines?

Wait, it gets better. You can also find a full java implementation (Java 1.3) for iPAQ.

If you want something in between, there's also PersonalJava. It has more features than J2ME, but fewer than a full java. It's nearing end of life though, I'm not sure what will come out to replace it.

There are JVMs for PDAs and cell phones and yes, PocketPC too. They are a very good way of getting your software to run on many portable devices. The only downside is that your code will run slower than something hand-crafted for a particular type of device.

Well, let's see... OK, so what you're asking for is that Sun should write a standard for a slimmed-down version of Java, just for PDAs? Say, we could call it Java 2 Micro Edition? And maybe you'd want that standard to be implemented on PocketPC machines?

Wait, it gets better. You can also find a full java implementation (Java 1.3) for iPAQ.

If you want something in between, there's also PersonalJava. It has more features than J2ME, but fewer than a full java. It's nearing end of life though, I'm not sure what will come out to replace it.

There are JVMs for PDAs and cell phones and yes, PocketPC too. They are a very good way of getting your software to run on many portable devices. The only downside is that your code will run slower than something hand-crafted for a particular type of device.

The JVM is a specification that may be implemented on different platforms as people are so inclined.

"Opening Java" will do nothing to address the problem of missing JVMs directly because the fundamental issue is one of demand. If you really need a JVM for your favorite toy OS, then start a project to build one.

While your point is valid, I would argue that you can run OOo on more platforms that MS Office.

This really is the problem. It ties OOo to only the platforms that Sun wants to support.

This link (java.sun.com) has the interesting line "Other vendors provide ports of J2SE to various operating systems and CPUs not listed here.". Does Sun really restrict which platforms Java can run on? My guess is that the platform developer may have to port and test their Java software, but why would you figure Sun to only want to support a limited set of platforms?

the OpenOffice developers are using proprietary classes from Sun's Java runtime library.

You mean the ones that are fully and openly documented, and have source code available in both the JDK binary download and the full SCSL source downloads?

This has everything to do with runtime libraries -- not the same thing as compilers, Bonzo.

That's "Bozo", bozo. ;-)

Hey ASSHOLES, the current Java source code can be downloaded here, and the latest development version can be downloaded here. And if that's not enough for you, your precious Kaffe, gcj, GNU Classpath, and other "Open Source" projects are working on reimplementing the JVM. I don't particularly care if you like Java or not, but I've had enough of this bullshit about Java being open or not. It's a God damn language/platform with thousands of successful Open Source projects under it, and has been opened up six ways to sunday. Comparing the issue to Linus's predicament is disingenuous at best, is not outright dishonest!

Not to mention that OpenOffice is Sun's baby. They PAID MONEY FOR IT. (I know that's a foreign concept here, since the entire fraking world is supposed to be FREE for the fraking taking.) If you don't like the direction OpenOffice has taken, then go play with KOffice. Oh wait, you alreay pissed them off too. Is there anyone you people won't make an enemy of in your Quixotic quests of stupidity?

Apologies for the abrasiveness of this post, but crap like this deserves it. You've been given a gift and all you can do is look it in the mouth.

A lot of Sun workstations already have 8 mb of L2 cache, for instance SunBlade 1000s. However, they like pretty much every other commercial chip in wide use(P4, Athlon, G4, G5 etc) all have 64k l1(32k data 32k instruction).

Blackdown is still 1.4, at least on amd64 stable

* dev-java/blackdown-jre
Latest version available: 1.4.2.01-r1
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 28,483 kB
Homepage: http://www.blackdown.org/
Description: Blackdown Java Runtime Environment 1.4.2.01
License: sun-bcla-java-vm

* dev-java/sun-jre-bin [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 1.5.0.03
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 32,042 kB
Homepage: http://java.sun.com/j2se/
Description: Sun's J2SE Platform
License: sun-bcla-java-vm

A lot of Sun workstations already have 8 mb of L2 cache, for instance SunBlade 1000s. However, they like pretty much every other commercial chip in wide use(P4, Athlon, G4, G5 etc) all have 64k l1(32k data 32k instruction).
But more to the point, did you RTFA? This is anti-fuse technology, ie it cannot be re-written. I guess you could have certain chunks of data that you need to reference again and again that won't change, but for that limited use why would you ever muck up your architecture?

...forgotten, perhaps, regarding Windows since the Microsoft / DEC Alliance days. But I've been running NetBSD's pkgsrc on a fully 64-bit OS for many years now (not to mention some others). In the OSS world, at least, 64 bit issues have been addressed for some time now.

There is the occasional badly-behaved audio or video application, coded originally on 32-bit x86 Linux, that must be hammered into shape. But it happens quickly enough that my Alpha is, and has been for years, a fully modern 64-bit desktop OS.

Me too

No, it means you can not know what is safe, unless you know the decoder is safe - which you can't. And even Open Source won't save you here, see libtiff. Displaying text is safe? Sure, unless there is something like escape characters.

Unfortunately, code signing, as currently implemented and (mis)understood by users, is an all-or-nothing proposition. There are certainly legitimate uses for privileged mobile code, but most users don't really read or understand security warning dialogs, they just think "I just clicked the Start Game button, and now it's asking me if I really want to Start the Game. How stupid."

Marimba actually came up with a good partial solution ages ago. When their framework loaded and executed a Java app, the framework would closely manage exactly what resources could be exploited by the app. Each application's ability to read and write files was restricted by default to its own tiny corner of the filesystem, and the amount of space it could occupy with its files was constrained as well.

Note that Java's security manager infrastructure has allowed these sorts of fine-grained controls since 1.2 (circa 1998), but no one to my knowledge has yet found a way to effectively communicate to a user:

• what resources a given piece of mobile code will want to exploit;
• what the risks of running it might be;
• some assurance that the code is published by someone they trust;

MSIE's concept of local policies set according to centrally defined security zones was a step in the right direction; it's too bad its development stalled when the Browser War was "won."

http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/boards/sx1 500/

good few-frills motherboard. only unneccessary whistle is onboard audio. Unless you consider USB a frill...

-GenTimJS

It will be at least a nuisance to, say, reimplement java.util.HashMap in a binary-compatible way without illegally appropriating Sun's IP

Why do you say that? The serialized format is documented fully:

Serial Data:
The capacity of the HashMap (the length of the bucket array) is emitted (int), followed by the size of the HashMap (the number of key-value mappings), followed by the key (Object) and value (Object) for each key-value mapping represented by the HashMap The key-value mappings are emitted in the order that they are returned by entrySet().iterator(). (source)

The problem with this would be that the XGrid agents would need to be cross-platform.

A mature cross platform version of this type of technology, which has similar discovery and grid-computing capabilities, is called Jini. Once again, Sun proves its marketing prowess.

Solaris and JDS aren't the same thing. I'll be the first to admit that Sun's not always clear about the difference, but if you examine the system at a technical level you'll see that there's nothing confusing about it. JDS is a set of userland applications and libraries built with GNOME (from a non-marketing perspective, it *is* GNOME). It has at various times been implemented on top of both GNU/Linux and Solaris. It's included with Solaris 10, but of course you don't have to use it. You can use CDE, which is still included, or you can use any other window manager and widget sets that support X11, just like you could on Solaris 9 and 8 and any GNU/Linux or Unix system with an X installation. Solaris is a Unix system, optionally including an X11 environment. This platform offers administrators and users the exact same choices and flexibility that any other Unix or Unix-like system offers. Why assume Solaris is different just because the marketing folks want to push Java? If you don't like JDS, don't use it. I'm sure Ubuntu had some default when you installed it - maybe GNOME, maybe KDE, maybe twm, maybe no X at all. Did you use the defaults there? Many people don't, and there's no reason you should feel you must on Solaris.

You want a copy of Solaris, go out and buy one. You want a free copy of Solaris, wait.

I guess you mean 'You want a copy of Solaris, go get one today, free of charge. You want an open source copy of Solaris, wait for OpenSolaris.' See, Solaris 10 doesn't cost money unless you want support, which is entirely optional. See for yourself.

Release a sample? That's a great idea. Maybe it should be some flagship feature behind Solaris 10. Like DTrace? Which was released open-source in January? You are a marketing genius.

When NeverWinter Nights came out, it only had a Windows version. Originally it was slated to have versions for MacOS, Linux, and Windows, at the release, in the box. I bought it anyhow, but there were some (vocal) Linux people who pre-ordered it, and were very upset.

Still, BioWare tried to make good on their promise to those people by at least eventually releasing a Linux port of the game (but not the toolset). However, this took them quite some time, and in the meantime, some people were very upset due to the lateness, the promises, the lack of the toolset, etc., etc....

However: months before they had released anything, I was already playing the game on Linux, (thanks to wine!) and a fork of wine (NWWine) was created just to run the toolset. Some people will complain about anything; others manage to get things done instead.

Now, on to Solaris. It has been available for free (as in beer) (WARNING: Scary sumo-wrestler-looking dork in pajama bottoms--I think they're trying to scare people away!) for some time now. So if you just want to run Solaris, (and why would you...) that is not a problem.

Also, Sun distributes copious amounts of freeware, and there's a free alternative (with source) to just about anything you could want on Solaris. Except the kernel, which would necessitate running another OS on the same hardware (Linux? NetBSD? Still many choices here).

So--given all this--what's the real market for OpenSolaris. Solaris kernel hackers? Gentoo Solaris? Honestly... not much. And: it isn't behind schedule, and it will be free--no one is pre-ordering it. So what's the big deal? Some people will complain about anything; others manage to get things done instead. And in the first category, I include both anonymous posters, and OpenSolaris developers. :)

--Eric Boutilier

The individuals who post here work at Sun Microsystems. The opinions expressed here are their own, are not necessarily reviewed in advance by anyone but the individual authors, and neither Sun nor any other party necessarily agrees with them.

Here's a better suggestion: When you discover that your system is theoretically vulnerable from a buffer overflow or some similar flaw that's never actually been exploited in the wild, how about you simply disable the offending service until we ship a patch that we've taken the time to test?

Eventually your solution leads the user to power down the computer.

Solaris provides T-patches in advance of regular patches. These are prelim temporary patches that haven't gone through thorough testing but are meant to quickly resolve a security issue.

What are the options for developing Java apps on Zaurus? I found a link here but it's a little out of date and I was also wondering if there are any good non-Sun alternatives.

...Java isn't free software.

swing.defaultlaf=com.sun.java.swing.plaf. gtk.GTKLookAndFeel

or

swing.defaultlaf=com.sun.java.swing.plaf.win dows.WindowsLookAndFeel

The program called the BIOS is, in this case, Open Firmware or IEEE 1275.