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The 85kWh Model S can already do a range of 300 miles. And some have taken it to over 400

Battery performance over time is reportedly 70% of full capacity after 7 years. That's not 100%, but it's certainly not bad either, and ignoring the advances in Lithium Ion, Lithium Air tech is fast approaching too.

Do you remember what happened with LCDs and SSDs? They were extortionately priced at first, but you can now get a 256GB Samsung SSD for £180, and dropping. I think most importantly, in the public's eye, the electric car and the Model S in particular has defeated practically most or all of its shortcomings (other than price). And we all know what happens when the rich start to buy expensive things...

The 85kWh Model S can already do a range of 300 miles. And some have taken it to over 400

Battery performance over time is reportedly 70% of full capacity after 7 years. That's not 100%, but it's certainly not bad either, and ignoring the advances in Lithium Ion, Lithium Air tech is fast approaching too.

Do you remember what happened with LCDs and SSDs? They were extortionately priced at first, but you can now get a 256GB Samsung SSD for £180, and dropping. I think most importantly, in the public's eye, the electric car and the Model S in particular has defeated practically most or all of its shortcomings (other than price). And we all know what happens when the rich start to buy expensive things...

Cars are the world's single largest source of carbon. http://www.teslamotors.com/ save us!

The vast majority of cars are overkill for daily life. But speed and power are seductive - especially when it's quiet and understated. EVs are very good at that, even if the driving range is yet anywhere near that of ICEs.
Yes, I read the summary but I've also read, more than once, what Musk wrote on the Tesla site 7 years ago. Have a look.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me
 

And not just another platform for mining your personal data to better push ads at you (google, Facebook),

Don't be so quick with that.

All Tesla cars come with cellular connectivity and they definitely phone home. i think that it would be naive to believe that Tesla is not looking to monetize as much of your driving information they can their hands on. I'd love to see proof otherwise, but I doubt it is out there given the way of the world nowadays.

Tesla's main site/models: http://www.teslamotors.com/models

YouTube -Test drive ridealong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqRuPrT2azw

Motorward has a link to YouTube -Drag race, Tesla Model S vs. BMW M5: http://www.motorward.com/2012/10/drag-race-tesla-model-s-vs-bmw-m5-f10

YouTube - Test drive ridealong: http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=oqRuPrT2azw

YouTube - Drag race, Tesla Model S vs. BMW M5: http://www.motorward.com/2012/10/drag-race-tesla-model-s-vs-bmw-m5-f10

I think it looks pretty, and the inside stunning. Certainly nicer than the Porsche. Probably handles better too. It looks like a toned down version of a Maserati. Not sure why I'm debating with anybody that likes something as ugly as the GT500.

I don't think a 240W outlet will even power a hairdryer, which is typically around 1kW. Maybe you mean 240V, like the entire of Europe? Just get a step-up convertor. The tiny amount of electricity used is dwarfed by your average petrol bill.

My friend waited over a year for his custom Lotus. Several months for a car transported back from the future will be a breeze. Your average Joe doesn't get a Porsche or a Mercedes, so that's hardly an argument.

Phillip.

First and foremost, its ugly. Seriously Ugly, check it out here : http://www.teslamotors.com/models

I have checked it out there, and I have concluded that it is not ugly. Seriously.

Second off, it does not compare to Porsche in any real way, speed, agility, handling, comfort, all go to Porsche.

How about in fuel efficiency, or emissions? Or, depending on the Porsche, price? That's a weird comparison to make though, comparing a luxury electric sedan with a Porsche. I don't recall Elon Musk saying he wanted the S to go head-to-head with Porsche.

Next, its too expensive.

Right, a 911 Turbo for $135,000+ is much more economical.

I'll but a GTR or GT500 instead.

Not exactly a great car for a family of 4 though.

Count on a nice addition to your electric bill every month.

Not if you have a free charging station. You also get a gasoline bill of exactly $0.

It's weird. It's almost like you're not Tesla's target market.

The Model S's range, rated by the EPA at 265 miles with the largest battery, finally fits the American conception of driving.

But at $78,500 before a $7,500 tax rebate that doesn't fit the American concept of pricing.

Make no mistake, I'd really love one of these. But $78,500 is pricy.

Actually, it's worse than that. The article was wrong, the Signature Performance model they tested (with the 4.4s 0-60 time) is $97,900 according to Tesla's site (and well over $100k with options like premium sound, extra row of seats, sunroof, etc). Even the non-signature performance model is $85k, and closer to $95k with options and charging cables. Those are right up there with a Panamera 4S.

Must be nice for those guys at Automobile magazine to get to drive cars without even having a clue how much they cost...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqRuPrT2azw

http://www.motorward.com/2012/10/drag-race-tesla-model-s-vs-bmw-m5-f10/

I could get by on 50 miles range, if the damn thing didn't take 6 hours to recharge.

This comment of yours is entirely irrational; if you could get by with a 50 mile range, then there is plenty of time for you to charge your vehicle whilst you are not driving it, namely when you are sleeping.

Furthermore, according to Tesla's FAQ:

How long does it take to recharge Model S?

Charging times are based on battery size and the combined voltage and amperage of the power source. A high-amperage 230 volt outlet can charge Model S from empty to full overnight. Model S is capable of recharging in 45 minutes using a fast charging station.

First and foremost, its ugly. Seriously Ugly, check it out here : http://www.teslamotors.com/models
Second off, it does not compare to Porsche in any real way, speed, agility, handling, comfort, all go to Porsche.
Next, its too expensive. 80 Grand for a car that looks like an ugly Buick? No thank you, I'll but a GTR or GT500 instead. Don't forget that you will need a 240W outlet (most homes have only one for your dryer), so you'll need that, or the high performance charging unit. Count on a nice addition to your electric bill every month.

Finally, average Joe won't get one. 5,000 units in 2012, that means you can't go to the dealer and snag one, not to mention you have to customize it 3 months beforehand to make sure you get what you want. Plunk down 5k, wait months and months and end up with a battery powered Buick Le Sabre. To hell with that. These auto mags really are useless dreck these days...

It's right there on their site:
http://www.teslamotors.com/models

At a supercharging station it takes 30 minutes to recharge. On long road trips most people stop that long to eat, stretch their legs, etc.

Tesla is also building a network of supercharging stations, already having built quite a few in California. They say any Tesla car can recharge at them for free. And the best part is the electricity is supplied by solar panels on the stations.

It seems like they have definitively answered your range anxiety.

electricity used by the Supercharger comes from a solar carport system

Maybe if you have one car to charge every couple of days - but with the total solar energy hitting the eath's surface being about in full sunshiew, and many cells producing 100-130 watts per square meter this cannot be the sole energy source for a 40 - 85 kwh charge

Phoenix to LA is about 400 miles. Here's the tale of a couple of guys doing 900 miles in a Tesla one weekend.

http://www.teslamotors.com/endtoend

This doesn't look good for Tesla: Toyota will probably pull out of the partnership: http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/tesla-motors-and-toyota-motor-corporation-intend-work-jointly-ev-development-tm

believing that we can run out of finite resources is the mark of a 'nutter

Yes. Yes it is. You don't "run out" of a commodity, because as the price goes up, people use less. Perhaps you remember high school economics? Demand curves?

It's nutty to believe that one day all the oil pumpms will suddly run dry without warning, or that oil companies will somehow fail to charge more as it gets harder to produce oil, or that consumers won't use less if prices rise.

The solution to high commodity prices is high commodity prices. Has been for centuries.

We'll move on to something else, but that something else won't be nearly as desirable.

Oh, really?

Sure, if you completely ignore the practical problems with paving half the country with solar panels.

I believe that covering all existing parking spaces with solar roofing would do the trick, at American power usage rates (not just fo our oil usage, but for everything). Not that that would be an efficient way to go about it, but while transition to any new power source would require a country-wide infrastructure build-out, we as a country have done many of those, and will need to do many more as technology progresses.

Again. Who is using these to power a real car sized EV? No one.

Google for 'brushless dc ev' and you'll find lots and lots of product hits.

"Back in the 1990s all of the electric vehicles except one were powered by DC brushless drives. Today, all the hybrids are powered by DC brushless drives, with no exceptions. The only notable uses of induction drives have been the General Motors EV-1; the AC Propulsion vehicles, including the tzero; and the Tesla Roadster." (Granted this is from 2007 but still a good article on the differences between the two types.)

put it on a 1-in-4 gradient (25%)

25% grade? The maximum legal highway grade in the US is 6%. Surface streets can get higher, but 25% is "offroading" territory. San Francisco's famous Lombard Street is 14% grade,

is the maximum torque which is 78Nm at full speed

But torque is lowest at high speeds, which is why it's easy to climb a super-steep hill at low speeds. I don't have the stats for the particular motors your citing, but here's the curve for Tesla's motor.

now you double that (2 wheels)

But you just charged us for four wheels ("$1500 *per wheel* including the controller so $3000 each side"). BTW, that's not that bad of a price at all, at least compared to when I priced a conventional system (Azure AC24LS and a DMOC445 - nothing stellar) a few years back, which I recall was something like $6.5-7k. And obviously not as simple to install.

Basically, if your motors you cited really are 78N at top speed (which is, let's just assume, is 90mph or so), and you have 4 of them, then you could probably climb a 25% slope (178% the slope of Lombard Street, 417% the slope of the steepest highway rise) at about 65mph. Which hardly sounds like a problem to me. Even if you double the mass of your vehicle you could do it at over 30mph, which I think is faster than anyone would want to do the sort of road you'd find that has a 25% grade on it ;)

>That they are not as efficient as ICE

http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/efficiency

says they are 2-3 times as efficient

Tesla provide an 8 year warranty on the battery. You won't have to buy a complete battery pack either (Nissan's are about £5000) because you can just replace failing cells, so typically the pack as a whole will never need replacing.

If you look at the reliability records for battery packs in current EVs they are pretty good. No-one is spending $30k every five years on batteries. Of course it is still early days yet, but all the scaremongering about batteries is mostly FUD.

Within my lifetime, gas has gone from .23/gal to 4.00/gal. If we are going to repair roads, etc. I suspect that we will need to double taxes. That will mean that we will within a couple of years pay around 6/gal, and I would not be surprised to see us approaching Europe levels of oil prices.

First, the roads were built with the current gas taxes. Why would we need to double them to maintain the roads?

OK, let's assume gas is $6.00/gallon.

$30000/6=5000 gallons of gas.

At 20 miles per gallon, that's 100,000 miles, or the typical life of an American made car.

How many miles do these batteries last, anyway?

Doesn't matter, if you are buying one of these to save money, you are making a mistake. If you are buying on of these to save the environment, you'd be better off buying a Honda Civic and spending the $30,000 planting trees or something.

You both forgot the price of electricity. It's not free, even though everyone acts like it is. Tesla only gets 5 miles on a 1-hour charge from a 120 volt outlet putting out 1800 watts (120v x 15a). That's more power than running a 12,000 BTU Window AC for an hour and only getting 5 miles from that and look at how high energy bills spike during the summer.

Electric is cheaper than gas per mile, but whatever you pay now for electricity in the summer with the AC pumping, imagine that bill year-round.

Yes, they do, it's pretty complicated though so try not to get lost:

cost to charge battery = cost per kWh * kWh capactiy * charging efficiency

Where efficiency is likely at least 0.9 so it won't make that much difference, though there may be a range, trickle-charging is typically more efficient and less damaging to your battery than speed-charging. If I had built the thing I'd certainly give it two charging ports, one that uses a specialized high-power "charging station" cable for quick charges, and a overnight trickle-charge port using a standard 120V/15-amp extension cord. The latter allowing both a gentle trickle-charge when that's sufficient, and a way to at least slowly recharge when a specialized charger isn't available.

Hmm, and it looks like that is basically the case, the car comes with a charging adapter that will let it plug into a standard wall outlet:
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging#
And here's your calculator, giving charging time and cost for a given range and power cost, looks like 3.4 cents/mile at 12cents/kWh
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging#/calculator

Looks like they're also establishing "Supercharge stations" that can half-charge your battery in 1/2 hour for road trips, though no doubt they're less efficient and put considerable wear and tear on your battery.

Yes, they do, it's pretty complicated though so try not to get lost:

cost to charge battery = cost per kWh * kWh capactiy * charging efficiency

Where efficiency is likely at least 0.9 so it won't make that much difference, though there may be a range, trickle-charging is typically more efficient and less damaging to your battery than speed-charging. If I had built the thing I'd certainly give it two charging ports, one that uses a specialized high-power "charging station" cable for quick charges, and a overnight trickle-charge port using a standard 120V/15-amp extension cord. The latter allowing both a gentle trickle-charge when that's sufficient, and a way to at least slowly recharge when a specialized charger isn't available.

Hmm, and it looks like that is basically the case, the car comes with a charging adapter that will let it plug into a standard wall outlet:
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging#
And here's your calculator, giving charging time and cost for a given range and power cost, looks like 3.4 cents/mile at 12cents/kWh
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/charging#/calculator

Looks like they're also establishing "Supercharge stations" that can half-charge your battery in 1/2 hour for road trips, though no doubt they're less efficient and put considerable wear and tear on your battery.

Even with tax supported subsidies, gas isn't cheap.

Gas shill Luddites would have us using a hundred year old technology instead of solving the technological problems that new technology always presents, all the while denying that there can be any negative consequences from any technology filling the coffers of right wing bloviating ignoramuses.

What's it worth to you to keep gas filled blow-hards redistributing money into the hands of cronies preparing the ground with lies and deceit for the next phony yellow cake war of liberation.

Donate your money to Al-Quaeda why don't you; Exxon Mobil, Shell, etc do with their royalty - and I do mean royalty - payments to Wahabi Arabia.

Or not.

If you can't afford the current tesla, wait a little longer; toyota will be using tesla battery technology to introduce an electric suv based on the toyota Rav model.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+tesla+build+rav4+ev+woodstock+ontario.htm

tesla has comitted to introducing a 30k+ model X suv by 2015.

http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

This comment has not been approved by the Ameican Enterprise Institute or the Heritage Foundation, their employees or contractors.

Tesla motors claims that the roadster is 88% efficient at converting electricity into mechanical energy taking into account all losses (battery, motor, etc).

Tesla Model S base range of 160 miles, with options out to 300 miles.

Apparently, you're out of the loop. Here let me educate you (and pay attention please, because you clearly think you know what you're talking about):

Tesla Motors

The technology (to provide a 150-mile round trip commute in an EV) has been on the consumer market since 2008. The consumer price is dropping like a stone (currently averaging around $7,500 per year) and at the current rate will provide desirable economy-priced EV's ($20,000) with 300+ (the breakthrough's in battery are the only limiting factor left) mile ranges within 8-10 years.

The Tesla Roadster, Model S or Model X designs are sexy and desirable (hater's start taking notes because you're dead wrong) automobiles. Like it or not, Tesla Motors has already started an automobile revolution and, if they continue to succeed (which I hope they do, the American economy needs more of these kinds of pioneering, game-changing companies), they will have been an integral part of the most significant era in automobile history in over 100 years.

This is a good thing. So don't hate and consider what this kind of thinking will mean for future generations. It's happening now and the old-schooler's and pessimists need to shut up and get on board. This kind of future only happens when people believe its possible.

REMOTE DIAGNOSTICS

An additional benefit of Roadster ownership made possible by firmware is Tesla’s ability to diagnose a car’s operations remotely. If an owner feels something has gone wrong with their car, remote diagnosis enables the Tesla Rangers to determine the issue and a solution without direct access to the car.

The Roadster firmware contains a system that allows the car to “talk” to headquarters if the customer chooses. In the situations where customers have opted-in, the firmware team has used information transmitted to Tesla to alert an owner of a pending problem and constantly innovate Roadster firmware.
Tesla had this several years ago. The big difference is that Tesla lets you know about it. Mercedes just rips it off and keeps quiet about it. Nothing new.

Wow, so the fact that just about everything in the world except cars right now runs on electricity, I guess that makes for an awful lot of stupidity out there.

And maybe you've been hiding under a rock lately, but the electric cars today are pretty damn good. Yes, even the Chevy Volt that some idiots keep talking about as if it's already doomed. They're a bit on the pricey side right now, but that's because some of the technology is still relatively new and they don't have the volume that cars with ICEs have thanks to an almost century-long head start. Have you even looked something like the Tesla Model S that beats the crap out of most ICE cars today? Now imagine how much less it would cost if the government just handed billions of dollars over to Tesla like it does oil companies.

Quote from the article to which Jeremiah linked, Tesla's 'Brick' Problem:

"The amount of time it takes an unplugged Tesla to die varies. Tesla's Roadster Owners Manual [Full Zipped PDF] states that the battery should take approximately 11 weeks of inactivity to completely discharge [Page 5-2, Column 3: PDF].

"However, that is from a full 100% charge. If the car has been driven first, say to be parked at an airport for a long trip, that time can be substantially reduced. If the car is driven to nearly its maximum range and then left unplugged, it could potentially "brick" in about one week. Many other scenarios are possible: for example, the car becomes unplugged by accident, or is unwittingly plugged into an extension cord that is defective or too long.

"When a Tesla battery does reach total discharge, it cannot be recovered and must be entirely replaced. Unlike a normal car battery, the best-case replacement cost of the Tesla battery is currently at least $32,000, not including labor and taxes that can add thousands more to the cost."

Tesla Motors

Telsa is planning on an ~$30,000 model in the next few years. If they achieve this price point and maintain the quality of their current models, I think that they will have an all electric car that many people will want

the Tesla vehicles already take advantage of "becoming a generator" as that is part of the "regenerative braking system" used in the vehicle

Regenerative braking requires some pretty sophisticated power electronics, controls, and software. The Tesla's motor is an AC induction motor. (The AC induction motor was invented by Nikola Tesla.) An AC induction motor has copper coils for both the rotor and the stator. This is different from a DC motor (brushed or brushless) where (usually) the rotor has permanent magnets on it.

Backdriving an induction motor will result in no power generation unless the stator is energized. Even then, the associated power electronics have to commutate which phase of the stator is energized in sync with the spinning rotor. In other words, you need at least some external (i.e., battery) power in order to regenerate - this is true of all induction generators. Without the stator being energized, you're just spinning one set of copper coils past another set (this is different from a DC motor, where the rotor has permanent magnets, which will induce current in the copper coils).

So the Tesla cannot be "jumpstarted" by towing it or rolling down a hill if the battery has discharged so deeply that it has disabled itself.

Sixty-nine cells are wired in parallel to create bricks.

AHA!!!! SEE? They admit it!!!

The motors aren't mounted in the hub; they're mounted on the chassis and connected with a drive axle via a universal joint as with FWD vehicles. Picture here, about 1/3 down the page.

This was always the Tesla plan as stated in a blog post by Elon back in 2006; the money he (hopes to) make from the luxury / niche premium vehicles will be used to fund development of more practical, everyday autos.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me

http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx Look for the picture with the ModelX in a garage. Yes, I'd imagine there are garages with smaller dimensions, but on average it should be fine.

It's not an SUV, and Tesla never claimed it was. TFS is wrong.

from the Tesla web site: "Blending the best of an SUV with the benefits of a minivan".

Low profile road tires, no elevated truck chassis, and little loading space

Just like the majority of SUVs these days.

and blah blah whatever, these things only get about 40 miles on juice at highway speeds, maybe if I had a couple days to get to work I could do it for that

Actually, the Tesla Roadster I mentioned has a range of about 180 miles at 70mph.
http://webarchive.teslamotors.com/display_data.php?data_name=range_blog5

And the Chevy Volt that TFA is about is a hybrid, so it's range is no different from a conventional car. Just put more gas in at a gas station. It'll do about 33mph without using any fuel, so most journeys won't need gas. But longer journeys are no worry whatsoever.

If you're keen on visiting a dealership, here's a list:

http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/stores

You could be dreaming, or you could simply be living or working in Menlo Park, CA. I used to drive past here all the time. All the car dealerships on El Camino Real left that strip of real estate sandwiched between the road and the CalTrain because there simply wasn't enough space for them to store enough inventory to be competitive with dealerships in Redwood City and Palo Alto. Strangely enough, lack of space for on-hand inventory was not a problem for Tesla, so they took over one of the empty lots.

That's not bait-and-switch, you moron. They say quite plainly that these are post-rebate prices.

Electric cars are NOT shit now

Yes they are.

and would be less shitty than ICE vehicles given a decade or two of development.

Electric cars have had more than a century of development and they're still hopelessly inadequate compared to ICE cars. That's why our great-grandparents dumped electric cars as soon as the ICE came along.

Electric cars are shit only if you mean they are "the shit". http://www.teslamotors.com/ Just because some companies make less than stellar electrics, doesn't mean all do. News flash, many (most) companies make gas cars that are shit as well.

I didn't go to class to learn thermodynamics, I just need to read research by those who have:

Here is the long form proving my point: http://www.stanford.edu/group/greendorm/participate/cee124/TeslaReading.pdf

Here is the easy web version: http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/efficiency

"In an electric vehicle, chemical energy is stored in a battery. Lithium-ion batteries are used in Tesla vehicles because of high energy density. Converting the chemical energy to free electrons (electrical energy) can be greater than 90% efficient – some energy is lost to heat in cells and other battery pack components such as current conductors and fuses. The remaining components of the Tesla powertrain – the drive inverter and motor – are also extremely efficient. Overall, drive efficiency of the Tesla Roadster is 88% - almost three times more efficient than an internal combustion powered vehicle."

"Chemical energy is stored as gasoline in a conventional car. Combustion is used to convert the chemical energy into thermal energy. Pistons convert the thermal energy to the mechanical work that turns the wheels. The conversion process is, at best, 35% efficient. The majority of the energy stored in the gasoline is lost as heat."

The more significant thing is that they can charge it in a few hours on household current.

And that's exactly the sort of green-washed bullshit that needs called out, because lies like that are what are going to create the negative press that will keep the Model S relegated to the garages of wealthy ecomentals.

Tesla's own best-case claims are that their weediest 160 mile range (with lights, heater/AC and other electrics off, right?) Model S will take 2.58 hours to charge from a "high-amperage 240-volt outlet", whatever that means. I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're talking about 120VAC "household current", so let's think more in the region of 5+ hours, if your household can supply the wattage, which I'd question. Five is not "a few", except in marketspeak. If you disagree, go ahead and charge your Tesla for 2 hours, and see how far you get. Physics isn't marketing's bitch.

Look, I like the idea of electric vehicles. I'm gagging for a usable electric motorcycle (and no, the Zero isn't usable yet). But we (for "we" substitute any country in the world) need to substantially upgrade the grid and every single city, neighbourhood, street and home before they'll be usable as more than urban shopping trolleys.

As mhajicek mentions, it'd most likely be done by automated machinery.

The battery pack for a tesla roadster weighs ~450kg/~1k pounds. Even if you split it into 4 seperate standardized 'packs', that's 250 pounds apiece, or 5 times the limit of what you can ask a worker to routinely lift. Even if he could, do you really want to have him make 4 trips for every exchange?

A pallet changer sort of robot is indeed the best answer. Could be completely automated, and you'd improve stability by mounting the batteries low on the undercarriage.

1. 1. Build sports car
2. 2. Use that money to build an affordable car
3. 3. Use that money to build an even more affordable car
4. 4. While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options
   
   and of course, if it's going to work, they must:
5. 5. Profit!

I would bet money that the Tesla Roadster has better handling, better acceleration, and is more fun to drive than your car. Oh and it's a full electric that can go 245 miles on a single charge.

from: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/nikola-tesla-everywhere