Mercedes Can Now Update Car Software Remotely

MatthewVD writes "Our cars run millions of lines of code that need constant and, often, critical updates. Jim Motavalli writes that Mercedes-Benz's new mbrace2 'cloud infotainment system' has a secret capability: it can update software automatically and wirelessly. In a process called 'reflashing,' the Mercedes system turns on the car operating system (CU), downloads the new application, then cuts itself off. With companies like Fisker paying dearly for constant recalls for software problems, automakers will likely rush to embrace this technology. No more USBs in the dashboard!"

Comments

Secret capability?

[commlinx]

From the Mercedes site:

Remote Vehicle Diagnostics Beyond allowing you to perform a check of your vehicle's main systems remotely, mbrace2 technology can automatically alert both you and your authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer to potential issues before they become full-fledged problems. In addition, it enables your vehicle to receive software updates wirelessly through the mbrace2 network.

So while maybe undesirable, not sure it's 'secret'.

Re:Secret capability?

[geekmux]

From the Mercedes site:

Remote Vehicle Diagnostics Beyond allowing you to perform a check of your vehicle's main systems remotely, mbrace2 technology can automatically alert both you and your authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer to potential issues before they become full-fledged problems...

Translation:

Beyond allowing you to perform a check of your vehicle's main systems remotely, mbrace2 technology can automatically make shit up about your car that is bad or potentially going bad, and before you even have a chance to think about the cost of the repair, they've already scheduled you for "maintenance" and charged your bank account for the appropriate deposit to order many, many "bad parts"...

Ah, such efficiency...and to think, I used to have to go through all that stress of having to decide about a $2000 "LED-charged photon-phased steering motor" repair to feed the largest profit center of any dealership...

Re:Secret capability?

[erroneus]

If this were not the manufacturer of the car doing this, I might have thought the same thing you are thinking. But if people begin to get troubled with too much recommended maintenance, they will start to believe their cars are unreliable and will not buy another one... or at least not one that tells them things they don't want to know.

Re:Secret capability?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever heard of "hyperlinks" Sherlock?

aka

Citation needed

Ever heard of "getting off your lazy fucking ass", Sherlock?

But since you've already proved yourself to be mentally challenged, I'll save you the "trouble".

Re:Secret capability?

[geekmux]

If this were not the manufacturer of the car doing this, I might have thought the same thing you are thinking. But if people begin to get troubled with too much recommended maintenance, they will start to believe their cars are unreliable and will not buy another one... or at least not one that tells them things they don't want to know.

Are you paying for "reliability" or "Government-regulated mandatory safety upgrades"?

"Repairs" can be spun many, many different ways...such as the difference between optional and mandatory types of insurance. People hate paying for either type of insurance, but don't see much of a choice when it's "mandatory". A "cost" turns into a "fee" if EVERY car owner is charged for it, so this is yet another vehicle to mandate mass fees, turning profits through "safety standards"(for both the auto industry and Government). But you somehow feel better about it, because your 37 air bags are all up to date with the latest software patch and ready to protect you (not that they didn't before).

Oh and your insurance company feels better too, because they got a piece of the profits as well by mandating that no car will be insured without an "active maintenance subscription". Oh yeah, you'll need auto anti-virus protection too.

(I mean seriously, what do you think auto and insurance lobbyists do all day?)

Re:Secret capability?

[iamwahoo2]

I wish I had your faith in my fellow human beings, but most people do not seem to care about reliablity when they purchase their cars. Mercedes is one of the more unreliable brands on the market and they are still managing to sell plenty of cars. Even worse, look at Dodge/Chrysler, unlike Mercedes, they have always had a reputation for poor reliability and they are still managing to stay alive.

Re:Secret capability?

[Joce640k]

Translation:

Beyond allowing you to perform a check of your vehicle's main systems remotely, mbrace2 technology can automatically make shit up about your car that is bad or potentially going bad, and before you even have a chance to think about the cost of the repair, they've already scheduled you for "maintenance" and charged your bank account for the appropriate deposit to order many, many "bad parts"...

Yep. No BMW mechanic would ever be able to figure out it was all lies and leak his findings to the press.

Re:Secret capability?

[pnewhook]

Given that most new cars have a period of maintenance factored in where the owner does not pay for warranty work (often 5 years), any warranty work performed like software updates simply come right off the companies bottom lin.e It only makes good business sense to make this as inexpensive as possible and if they can do updates remotely without actually going into the dealer then this is a huge cost savings for them and far more convenient to the owner.

Also, given how much of the safety systems on these high end Mercedes are under software control, I wouldn't be surprised if the lawyers are warning the company that if they do not do due diligence in rolling out safety related upgrades, then they may be liable for crashes related to the failing of this software. In such a case making sure the software updates are rolled out to as many people as possible as easily as possible would be a mandate of theirs.

Re:Secret capability?

[alen]

in the USA we have these things called car warranties, so its the manufacturer paying for all these parts and services to the dealer.

there are two types of MB drivers. those who can really afford the car, and those who can't and just lease. I had a neighbor one time like that. renter, nothing to his name and yet he had enough money to pay $600 a month of a CK500 or whatever it was. until he got his girlfriend preggers and got rid of the car

Re:Secret capability?

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Haha what a douche! He totally had something he enjoyed but was a poor financial choice, and then when the time came to be responsible he got rid of it for a (presumably) more sensible ride! What a loser!

Also, lease? Eeeeew! Can you believe somebody would choose to pay less on a monthly basis when they don't plan to keep the car past the lease duration instead of paying more and then going through the risk and hassle of selling it? Man! I'm so much smarter being upside-down and paying gap insurance on my zero-down loan instead of leasing. Or, should I say, "low-classing". What am I, a drug dealer? Boy it's great being smug.

Re:Secret capability?

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch it! Your tinfoil hat is coming a little loose!

Re:Secret capability?

[jedidiah]

They don't have to worry. They will get bailed out by Washington any time they need it. They are "too big to fail". Have been for a rather long while now.

Re:Secret capability?

[Isaac-1]

Repeat after me:
Infrastructure items should not auto-update, the potential for something bad is too big. Imagine one Ooopsy bricking every Mercedes, not so bad right? Now picture every Toyota, or Ford.

Re:Secret capability?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or instead of being a retard, buy a USED car and get the lease payment on a car you own.

I know, ewww icky used car. It's got other people goo and farts in it!

Only morons lease a car.

Re:Secret capability?

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Sometimes people buy things they don't need, just because they want it. Not everybody wants to be a robot "min-maxing" every aspect of their life--some of us want to enjoy it.

And hey, somebody's got to buy those new cars. They don't just roll out of the factory used so you can get your sweet deal. Looked at another way, you're just a leech feeding off all the people who have the resources to pay to actually have the vehicles built. I don't actually believe that, but for those unable to see shades of gray, there's still an alternative viewpoint.

Re:Secret capability?

[crakbone]

Or they could just update the systems to stress other components so the defective unit is more likely to fail after warranty than before. Besides who wants a car that can be hacked on the fly so to speak. Car: "downloading new update" Update: "set accelerator to 100%. Shutdown Air bags. Ignore break signal"

Re:Secret capability?

[NFN_NLN]

Haha what a douche! He totally had something he enjoyed but was a poor financial choice, and then when the time came to be responsible he got rid of it for a (presumably) more sensible ride! What a loser!

The parent poster is pissed because driving a Mercedes has nothing to do with the actual car and everything to do with flaunting wealth. Unfortunately, the lower the income bracket capable of affording a Mercedes through leasing, etc just diminishes this effect.

The sad part is, most wealthy people are cheap. In the book "The Millionaire Next Door" they analyzed the habits of actual self-made millionaires. One of the items they touched on was houses and cars. The most common car driven by self-made millionaires: FORD!!!

Re:Secret capability?

[KhabaLox]

Still, I wonder how long it will take car manufacturers to adopt the pricing strategies of game and other software companies.

Walk off the lot for $20k. Oh, you want navigation and back up cameras? That's another $1500. Oh, you want updated maps? $100 per year. The auto transmission control upgrade that will improve your fuel efficiency? $25. Oh, and we'll be releasing a new one every quarter. ABS upgrade? $5/month to stay current. Etc. etc.

Re:Secret capability?

[zlives]

so you are saying Toyota needs to call MB for patent infringement...

yes i know its bad, couldn't resist.

Re:Secret capability?

[zlives]

its called options and extended warranty you insensitive clod

Re:Secret capability?

[zlives]

come on now, did you type this on your ipad ;)

Re:Secret capability?

[StikyPad]

if people begin to get troubled with too much recommended maintenance, they will start to believe their cars are unreliable

If they're buying a Mercedes, they're probably right.

Re:Secret capability?

[StikyPad]

Are you paying for "reliability" or "Government-regulated mandatory safety upgrades"?

I'm not sure whether you're implying that "Government-regulated mandatory safety upgrades" are retroactive (in other words, that manufacturers must add new features to cars that have already been sold), or that OTA updates are Government mandated, but the answer is the same in either case: They're not.

Re:Secret capability?

[KhabaLox]

Sure, that's how they'll pitch it at first. Pretty soon, you will have to buy a license which grants you a temporary right to turn on the engine. It will be more expensive for the 24/7 license, but if you only need to drive between 6am and 6pm you can get the "daylight" license.

Re:Secret capability?

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Hah, no. I'm still on my 3GS, bought for the feature set and not the rounded corners, almost a year out of contract and won't be getting a new one until the battery stops making it through a day, and I've never leased a car (or had a new one at all) in my life.

Just because I don't take part in conspicuous consumption doesn't mean I begrudge others their right to do so. I'm no Mother Theresa though, I've got my own faults (being an asshole on the internet for fun is one of them), and so I hope the conspicuous consumers out there forgive me mine back.

Re:Secret capability?

[lsatenstein]

hope the protocol is secure and ecc encoded or sha1 checksum verified. Dont want your business partner to take over the car while you are driving and do you grave harm.

What a revolution

[Anonymous Coward]

Mercedes is now able to crash cars remotely.

Re:What a revolution

[Anonymous Coward]

Mercedes is now able to crash cars remotely.

Hackers now able to crash Mercedes remotely.

Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

This also means that hackers and government agencies can update the software automatically and wirelessly. Finally there is no more need for cutting the break cables.

Re:Many possibilities

[supersat]

I'm willing to bet it's far more likely that they'll need to patch security holes remotely than it is for the update mechanism itself to be exploited. That is, assuming they digitally sign the updates.

Re:Many possibilities

[arth1]

I'm willing to bet it's far more likely that they'll need to patch security holes remotely than it is for the update mechanism itself to be exploited. That is, assuming they digitally sign the updates.

So? Even a 1000:1 ratio would be unacceptable.

And if a lesson were to be learned from Playstation / XBox / DVD / Blu-Ray / iPhone, it's that as long as customers (and thus hackers) have access to the hardware, keeping things secret is a temporary reprieve at best.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Yo dawg, we heard you like updating software so we're updating your update software...

Re:Many possibilities

[toastar]

What, you mean security through obscurity doesn't work?

Re:Many possibilities

[houghi]

I use security through less security. People are so trained that passwords are at least 6 characters long and often 8 that they will never try my SPACE as password.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

That isn't true in general. GP post referenced the Playstation... Well, the Playstation 3 is still not fully cracked yet and the console has been on the shelves long enough for the security system to pay itself back. So in that case security through obscurity did in fact work, at least from the perspective of Sony. Not that it'll do them much good; I gather Sony is losing money like fratboys their dinner.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

The only brake cables are for the parking brake. You both mean brake lines.

Re:Many possibilities

[sosume]

My owner's manual says it's a parking brake. And I wouldn't want to rely on a small button saying 'p' as a last resort in case of emergency.

Re:Many possibilities

[geekmux]

It's not a parking brake, never was. It's an emergency brake. I bet most people in the U.S. never bother setting it when the car is parked, heck, many of them I'm sure wouldn't know where it is or how to use it in an emergency. There's a "P" setting on the shifter, that's good enough :/

Oddly enough, the laws of inertia still exist in the Western Hemisphere, even including the United States!

(I hear there are hills too...)

Re:Many possibilities

[erroneus]

We ignore laws here... especially the government.

Re:Many possibilities

[JaredOfEuropa]

What P? My car, like most cars over here, has a shifter with settings labeled 1 through 5, and R. So yes, it's a parking brake.

Re:Many possibilities

[Hentes]

Knowing how little most corporations know or care about security I wouldn't be so sure. Wireless car keys, for example, can already be hacked.

Re:Many possibilities

[ickleberry]

The P for "Prundle"

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a parking brake, always was. WIth a manual transmission car the only thing that will prevent it from going to the bottom of any (not very steep) hill it is parked on is the friction and compression in the engine, or the PARKING BRAKE. Automatics with the convienient P didn't come around until much later, the P isn't necessarily reliable, either, and can be quite difficult in some cars to get out of when parked on a hill, unless you use the PARKING BRAKE. Plus, on many, many cars with rear drum brakes applying the parking brake keeps the brake shoes in proper adjustment, so the brakes work when you press the pedal.
Any questions?

Re:Many possibilities

[19thNervousBreakdown]

So you'd rather have nothing as a last resort in case of emergency? Because if you discount the emergency/parking brake, that's what you have.

Or maybe you're saying it should be a great big lever painted in yellow and black stripes with rotating red lights, sirens, and steam. If that's the case I agree, that's an emergency brake.

Me? In an emergency, I'll grab whatever the hell is around to slow me down, and I don't give a damn it's called, I'll just be grateful to have a redundant system.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

It will make the gone in 60 seconds remake in a couple of years alot more entertaining as well, the entire twist will be focused around the antique car that still has mechanical locks and needs to be hotwired to get it started, all the others get flashed and will drive themselves into the container ship to transport them from China to America, I can see them butchering the next herby the lovebug remake with this as well.

Re:Many possibilities

[mapkinase]

I am tired of this standard banal instantly modded up response:

- Something is made easier
- Aha! Government all other evil guys will have easy access too!

Duh!

Re:Many possibilities

[Joce640k]

It's not a parking brake, never was. It's an emergency brake.

You know how I know you've never tried pulling that handle when the car is moving?

Me? I'd expect an 'emergency brake' to be a bit more effective then that...

Re:Many possibilities

[LoRdTAW]

I know I'm feeding the trolls but:

It's not a parking brake, never was. It's an emergency brake.

If you have a stick shift (aka manual or standard) transmission, the emergency/parking brake lever is what you use to park your vehicle and as a backup mechanical brake if for some reason your normal hydraulic brakes completely fail. So yes it is a parking brake in addition to being a last resort mechanical brake. They are still present on all(?) automatic cars as a safety feature. Before the parking pawl it was the only way to park your vehicle so it has and always will be an emergency/parking brake. After a while it became commonplace to just call it a parking brake, maybe the word "emergency" made people feel uncomfortable. Who knows.

When automatic transmissions first came around, the "parking pawl" was not always present so a lever or handle was necessary to mechanically lock the vehicles brakes to prevent it from rolling, like a manual. Then the parking pawl was standardized (in the US around 1965) to give drivers a more safe and reliable parking mechanism. It can not be used as a brake mechanism, its a gear like ring on a splined shaft which when engaged, slides into a grooved recess of the transmission case. This locks the output shaft which in turn locks the entire drive line. Engaging that at highway speeds would mean catastrophic transmission and/or drive line failure.

I bet most people in the U.S. never bother setting it when the car is parked, heck, many of them I'm sure wouldn't know where it is or how to use it in an emergency. There's a "P" setting on the shifter, that's good enough :/

What was the point of making that statement? To be a snobby jerk off and put down Americans when ever you can? Is it fashionable where you come from? The parking pawl is more reliable than a mechanical cable activated parking brake. One the ring locks the drive shaft it is not rolling anywhere. A cable actuated emergency/parking brake can come out of adjustment and also suffer from a failed cable. It is not necessary to use on an automatic. I happen to use it on hills as a backup to prevent the weight of the vehicle from binding the parking pawl.

And an example: I purchased a forklift that weighed 8000 lbs. I hauled it on a 3000lb trailer and towed it with a ~6000 lb automatic vehicle. All together it weighed around 17,000 pounds or 7,700 kg. I stopped at a friends house and decided to stay the night, problem was his house was on a hill and I could not fit the rig into his driveway. I set the parking brake and tested to see if it would hold, it didn't. 7700kg on a steep hill was just too much for it, it crept forward little by little. I put the automatic transmission in park and it held perfectly.

Re:Many possibilities

[BosstonesOwn]

Ah the PS3 has had so many custom firmwares written for it that they have to cycle the firmware versions just to break the older firmware.

What Version 4.11 or something of the such now ? Not to mention that people have learned to sign their own packages for it ? Guessing you have not done a basic web search for security info eh.... to much to expect I suppose ?

Re:Many possibilities

[h4rr4r]

It's the emergency make the car smell bad lever.

Re:Many possibilities

[drinkypoo]

It's both. It's a parking brake, in that it holds the car on a hill, and it's an emergency brake, in that it will give you maybe one stop from high speed if you apply it alone.

Re:Many possibilities

[Joce640k]

Go ahead and try it next time you're cruising along. No, seriously. At best you'll get bad smell from the mechanism. It won't slow you down worth a damn.

While you're at it: Try stomping on the brakes when nobody else is around, just to see what happens. That way you'll know what to expect in a bad situation.

Stuff like this is called "learning to drive".

Re:Many possibilities

[thegarbz]

This locks the output shaft which in turn locks the entire drive line. Engaging that at highway speeds would mean catastrophic transmission and/or drive line failure.

Actually engaging it while in motion means catastrophic parking pawl failure. I've actually had this happen to me when slamming on the brake to avoid an accident in the making up ahead. A heavy metal pole in my car flew forward and jammed the transmission into park while doing about 60. End result is the little safety pin which requires you to press the button before changing between drive and reverse, and by extension into park is broken (yay quickshift), and I am now fully reliant on the parking brake when I'm on a hill as the parking pawl is toothless.

Bloody expensive part too. Fortunately not critical.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

So if you were hauling 17,000 lbs GCW and you didn't think to bring a set of wheel chocks?

Re:Many possibilities

[LanMan04]

Before the parking pawl it was the only way to park your vehicle

Just put it in gear when you park. No brake needed.

Re:Many possibilities

[garyoa1]

This is true. Never was a parking brake and should never be used for parking. Might work in a warmer climate but where winters freeze... they can too. So you'll be parked for a helluva long time if you pick up some moisture in the cable.

As far as stick shift, the proper way to "park" is put it in low or reverse gear and turn your wheels to the curb.

Re:Many possibilities

[twistofsin]

Years ago at a shop I worked in I had a coworker that parked his Mustang with the transmission. It popped out of gear one day and rolled into another coworkers car. I wouldn't recommend parking a standard transmission without the brake.

Re:Many possibilities

[LoRdTAW]

That is only useful for parking on a reasonably level surface. There was a time when big trucks had all mechanical diesel engines and drivers would practice this. And I have heard of more than a few trucks mysteriously starting themselves up and running away. Turns out the drivers never set any mechanical brake, did not leave the engine stop lever in the stop position (which cuts fuel) and parked on a slight incline or hill. The trucks weight would overcome the friction of the drive line, begin to roll and crank the engine causing it to fire up and run away.

I was victim to this thinking when I first started driving big trucks. It was an old GMC that had no clutch interlock and I had a bad habit of starting it from outside the truck while standing on the ground. Another driver was old-school and parked it using the gear lever, I never noticed it. It started and thankfully there was another vehicle parked next to it and the wheel was turned all the way to the right. It surged to the right and crashed into the vehicle next to it. It dented the fender and step, nothing major. If the wheel was pointed strait or in my direction the outcome would have been bad. I admit that I should have been in the cab, foot on the clutch and checked to see if the transmission was in gear. I just never expected the mechanical brake to be off and transmission in gear, it was a practice I was unaware of. Boss was pissed at me but even more pissed that someone left the truck in gear with no parking brake on. We both had our asses chewed. You learn from mistakes.

Using the gear lever to park any vehicle is not nor has it ever been an acceptable method of parking. Its more a last resort for a worm or maladjusted parking brake.

Re:Many possibilities

[LoRdTAW]

I can imagine that an aluminum cased transmission would be more "forgiving" to such a situation. The steel pawl becomes a cutting head and just bores out the grooves in the case. That or the pawl itself is mashed depending what is it made of. If it was all steel than the outcome would have been nasty. Cracked case or snapped output shaft come to mind.

Re:Many possibilities

[Patch86]

I take it you've never driven a car with a manual gearbox then? They were sort of the original design for cars, too.

Re:Many possibilities

[Lumpy]

I have. An emergency brake will slow you down and bring you to a stop safely.

Will it lock up the brakes because you were an idiot and dont start braking until you are 6 feet from the car in front of you? no. It does not save the typical moron driver.

But in a brake line failure, you take your foot off the gas (WHAT A CONCEPT!) and apply the emergency brake. it will slow you down a LOT faster than just trying to engine brake.

Granted, you have to have a clue as to how to drive a car and how to use it, which rules out about 90% of drivers on the road.

Re:Many possibilities

[Lumpy]

In any car made over the past 15 years it will do NOTHING to throw a car in park at speed. The parking pawl is solenoid driven and the ECM will not allow it to engage. Older pure hydralic transmissions would use line pressure to keep it from moving until the speed drops to a point where it is "safe" to engage.

Re:Many possibilities

[Lumpy]

Only on poorly maintained cars. You DO lubricate the cable yearly as in the Maintenance schedule right? at least you take it to a competent mechanic for these things right?

If not, then you take care of your vehicle rather poorly.

Re:Many possibilities

[LoRdTAW]

I did have chocks but I don't trust them on hills. Best thing is to just leave the wheel turned toward the curb and hope whatever parking mechanism you have is enough. 17k was well within the GCW for the towing vehicle and the transmission parking brake held up just fine. I would have used the chocks of I had to rely on the cable actuated parking brake.

Re:Many possibilities

[X0563511]

The parking brake in an automatic car is intended to take the stress off the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parking_pawl]parking pawl[/url]. Period. Other uses for it are consequential.

Re:Many possibilities

[X0563511]

Wow, total failure. This is what I get when half the places I go want HTML, the other half BBCode. One of them needs to die (i say BBCode)

Re:Many possibilities

[NFN_NLN]

Turns out the drivers never set any mechanical brake, did not leave the engine stop lever in the stop position (which cuts fuel) and parked on a slight incline or hill.

Now picture this, a butterfly lands on the truck which is the tipping point. Now the weight of the butterfly and truck overcomes the friction of the drive line, begin to roll and crank the engine causing it to fire up and run away.

I jazzed up your story a little bit.

Re:Many possibilities

[Joce640k]

it will slow you down a LOT faster than just trying to engine brake.

Have you actually tried it in an emergency at highway speeds? I have. I assure you you'll have time to pray to several dozen deities before it actually stops the car.

Re:Many possibilities

[19thNervousBreakdown]

I know what happens. You slow down. I've also been in the car while somebody pulled the e-brake on dry pavement at 50 mph while turning the wheel. Queue dramatic screeching and a perfect 180. (he's an excellent stunt driver (very different from an excellent driver in general, which means safe, although his driving record of zero accidents over a 15-year career attests that he's that too, or at least lucky) but it still scared the shit out of me). If your e-brake doesn't slow you down, you have a broken emergency brake and your car probably shouldn't pass inspection.

You're also making the assumption that all e-brakes work the same way, which isn't true. Some cars (generally older ones, I think) use a pin against the drum. My car, which has disc brakes in the rear, directly attaches the cable to the caliper, bypassing the hydraulic system. Others use it, but don't rely on engine vacuum, others stop the front wheels, I'm sure there's plenty of other variations. The main point is, it's usually a redundant system, which is why it qualifies to be called an "emergency" brake. They're also usually ratcheting, which qualifies them to be called "parking" brakes. Most, you can call either and be correct.

As for emergency stopping, that's part of my test drive of a car, and part of my decision on whether to buy it or not is based on its behavior there. I'm not sure what part of my post made you assume that I'm a poor or irresponsible driver. I also ... uh ... "test" my car's handling on snow/ice by doing donuts in empty parking lots. Anyway, if you assumed that my handbrake won't slow my car down because yours doesn't slow your car down, you should get your car checked out.

Re:Many possibilities

[KhabaLox]

I have. An emergency brake will slow you down and bring you to a stop safely.

Do modern emergency/parking brakes have anti-lock built in? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. I wouldn't argue that an emergency brake will slow and stop you safely, but I agree that lacking your normal brakes, something is better than nothing.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

on my standard honda the parking brake just pushes in the rear calipers. If the hydraulics leak out or are real spongy it will start to creep which I found out the hard way.

Re:Many possibilities

[Compaqt]

Wait, but, when in P, all the weight of the car (+ stuff) is on the transmission.

Isn't that a much finer (precision) of a part than a brake? There are all kinds of small parts that go into an auto transmission.

Re:Many possibilities

[Compaqt]

Cable on what? The parking brake? Where is this cable exactly, and why does it need lubrication? Curious.

Re:Many possibilities

[tibit]

That's insane, for a couple of reasons. I don't think that it's even possible to take this cable out in most cars yearly even to look at it up close, without damaging various clips in the process. The cable has to be designed to accept lubrication, too -- you'd need to be able to remove the cable from the liner, or have proper grease fittings to push grease between the liner and the cable. You may have some historical car where the cable is serviceable like you claim, but it won't be the case on any modern car -- the e-brake system is simply not designed to allow such periodic lubrication. Design for serviceability plays a big role here.

Re:Many possibilities

[tibit]

I have. On those the emergency brake doubles as a parking brake :) If it were a parking brake only -- designed to hold your car but not to decelerate it -- you'd really need some other system in case your hydraulic brakes have failed. A parking brake has quite a precise meaning in mechanical engineering. If you have a motor that's part of a big machine and you use its shaft lock brake (parking brake) to stop the machine (even if just to dissipate its stored kinetic energy), you may end up with a fire, and you'll likely need to service the brake to make sure it survived the maltreatment.

Re:Many possibilities

[tibit]

Button saying P? Emergency? What? Are we on the same planet?

The P setting on the automatic transmission applies a mechanical lock to the driveshaft. Said lock is spring-loaded and is supposed to slip on its ratchet if you happen to engage P while driving. It should normally catch and jerk your car to a stop only when you're going quite slowly (a couple km/h tops). So using the P setting to slow down the car will simply not work. It's designed to hold the car steady when parked, that's all there's to it.

If you have an automatic transmission, you'll use the hydraulic brakes normally, if those fail you can do engine braking coupled with use of emergency brake. If the car is front-wheel driven, you may get by with setting your automatic transmission into reverse at speeds of perhaps 10-25km/h, but you'd better test it under the assumption that it may be a destructive test. You've been warned :) Turning on the reverse applies a large bias to the torque converter, and you can easily lock the wheels if you're not careful with choosing your engage speed. This trick has saved my bacon once, but I'll be glad if I won't ever have to repeat it.

Re:Many possibilities

[tibit]

At highway speeds you don't need power steering :)

Re:Many possibilities

[tibit]

I agree wholeheartedly. Adjusting e-brakes can be done from the inside of the car in many modern cars, so there's no excuse for not having it adjusted properly. I think that at least Volvo sedans and wagons made in the last decade are all like that.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the many oddities I've come to smirk about is when people can't understand why the car is so hard to get out of park when they park on a hill, put it in 'P' and leave it at that. I tried a few times to explain that when they put it in park and it rolls back a little, they're resting the car on the parking gear (yes, I know it's a pawl, but am not about to go into that.).

When I explain that they could avoid this by putting the car in neutral, applying the parking brake, taking their foot off of the brake pedal, letting the car rest against the parking brake, and then putting it into park, I get some sort of response about how that's hard or what happens it the parking brakes fails (it's hard to fight that kind of stupid).

I realize it seems like lot of steps, but it becomes second nature after a while. I rarely drive automatics, but find myself going through that quick little set of steps every time without having to think about it.

I also get a look of confusion and beffudlement when I let the car rest against the parking brake and then put the (manual) transmission into a gear (engine off of course) when parking. They don't understand why I don't just use the parking brake. It starts to hurt when I realize that the same people who think I should just use the parking brake for a stick shift won't even try to use the parking brake on an automatic.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true.

I've been in more then a dozen rental cars all made in the last 15 years and on more then one of them, the driver thought it might be funny to slam it into park at 10-15 mph. It makes a chattering/rattling sound until the speed drops to a point where it can stop the car wherein you get a nice bouncy stop.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm unsure why you're talking about "maybe one stop."

In my experience with cars in the US, the parking/emergency brake uses a cable to engage the same rear brake mechanism as the hydraulic system engages. There's nothing that should fail after the first use.

On some vehicles, there is a separate set of friction material - typically a small set of brake shoes in a drum inside a brake rotor - but this is very much the exception, not the rule. I recall having seen this on some Volvo and Ford truck models. The brake shoes are laughably small, and it's hard to believe that they would have much impact on a moving vehicle.

Because it is cable rather than hydraulic actuation, I assume it doesn't apply as much pressure.

But more important, because most passenger vehicles are strongly biased toward the front brakes doing most of the work, the rear brakes really just aren't capable of doing much to stop the car, whether hydraulic or mechanically actuated.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a warning for engine braking before a turn last year in AZ. They policewoman said she did not see my break lights, therefore I must not have been braking, therefore I took the curve with dangerous speed.

I was trying to explain engine braking and that concept was completely alien to her.

To be frank she was 20 something, probably fresh out of academy.

Re:Many possibilities

[sjames]

I have used the parking/emergency brake in conjunction with downshifting to come to a safe stop when the main brakes failed.The biggest problem with the emergency brake was that it pulls strongly to one side.

Fully agreed, it's good to try these emergency measures in a test situation first. I consider it part of getting used to a new (to me) car.

Re:Many possibilities

[sjames]

Your brake cable is stretched. Tighten it up to be within spec and try again.

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinda like I can reflash the kernel on my Motorola Droid... Oh wait, crypto-signature encrypted bootloaders broke that. Maybe they are competent enough to do the same.

Maybe if some hackers have nitric acid and an electron microscope hanging around.

Re:Many possibilities

[TangoMargarine]

He didn't say it was still secure, he said it *was* secure for *long enough* that they recouped the cost.

Re:Many possibilities

[BitZtream]

Then your system isn't functioning correctly. You've got a broken cable or stuck caliper/piston somewhere.

Re:Many possibilities

[BitZtream]

That sound you hear is a mechanical/pressure feedback system that accomplishes the same thing. It uses hydraulic pressure from the transmission (which it has since the car is moving) as feedback to determine when its slow enough to throw everything into the mesh to activate the parking prawl.

Its the cheap way and reliable/dependable way to accomplish the task when you don't have a computer controlled expensive transmission already in place, like most budget cars do not.

Re:Many possibilities

[BitZtream]

Smart man ALWAYS uses chocks AND park AND brakes when holding onto that much weight for any length of time in one place, even when on level ground.

Re:Many possibilities

[BitZtream]

Not the parts designed to hold the car (The parking prawl is a large burly/manly chunk made for this purpose, not for the purpose of moving your care down the road like a precision instrument.

Re:Many possibilities

[LoRdTAW]

Know whats even more scary?

Back in the early days of trucking, there were no spring brakes or maxi brakes. So if you parked a loaded tractor trailer on a hill the only thing keeping it from rolling was the "drum in hat" style parking brake on the transmission or carrier (differential). It was nothing more than a drum brake that was mounted to the drive shaft. and they held around 80,000 pounds (36,000kg) on a hill IF they were adjusted properly. Those guys carried and used chocks.

You still find those parking brakes on medium duty trucks without air brakes. Many of the medium duty transmissions sold today (mainly by Allison) do in fact have a parking pawl. And they hold up to whatever they are designed to hold, sometimes up to 33,000+ pounds (15,000+ kg).

Re:Many possibilities

[Joce640k]

Yep, did that too. It was a manual car and I got it in first gear before heaving on the handbrake (and you'd be surprised how little effect the engine has when you're going downhill towards a junction).

Yes, I would have slammed it into reverse if I actually got to the junction and somebody was coming the other way.

I've also got a car off a busy road by putting it in first gear and using the starter motor. You do what you have to do when you're in a pinch...

Re:Many possibilities

[sjames]

The braking was uneven, but not absent.Although it can and should be corrected, the cable actuation isn't self balancing like a hydraulic system would be, so a pull is quite common and should be expected if you ever need the emergency brake..

Re:Many possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is the definitive answer to the brake thing. It is a handbrake (except when its a left foot brake way over there in American cars, in which case it's the left foot and hand brake, 'cause you need your left hand to release it). Its ONLY purpose to to let those of us who have mastered it to go really, really fast on slippery surfaces, make incredibly fast changes of direction, and park on hills and have our cars still there when we return (although this is a minor use).

Re:Many possibilities

[toddestan]

It's the cable that mechanically links the rear brakes to whatever mechanism that's in the car to engage the brake (lever, pedal, whatever). I've never had problems with the lubrication of the cable itself, but you can get water in there that leads to corrosion which leads to the cable eventually breaking. Which is a good reason to check up on it occasionally and make sure that the grease or whatever is used to keep the water away from the cable is still doing its job. On some cars the cable is in tension to release the parking brake which means when that happens the car is effectively immobilized.

Re:Many possibilities

[thegarbz]

Likely, admittedly I never actually disassembled the transmission or took it to a shop. Other than the fact I can roll down a hill in park there has been no pressing reason to get it looked at. Maybe it was just lucky.

Re:Many possibilities

[thegarbz]

In any car made over the past 15 years...

And that's where the relevance for me stops.

What? I'm a poor engineer, not a rich tradesman. :-)

Re:Many possibilities

[Lumpy]

Yes I have, maybe if you read the first words in my post. and if you think you will stop the same as mashing a hydralic brake, you are nuts. IT will stop you in a significantly less distance than no brake at all.

Granted It was a car that was designed right. the cable pulls on two levers that engage the rear disc brakes. so I have the rear two brakes. There are crap cars that have a small spot brake pad for the E-brake. But most pull the rear brakes either both rear discs or both rear drums.

Re:Many possibilities

[Lumpy]

she also probably did not know that cars are available without automatic transmissions, although you can engine brake with an auto tranny, just not as effective.

Re:Many possibilities

[Lumpy]

2007 honda civic - computerized transmission.
fords fiesta - computer controleld transmission.

Any Car that had the 4T60E transmission from GM that was made in 1995-2005 is computer controlled, that covers almost ALL of their cars that were front wheel drive. 4T65HD was used in the better cars and was also electronic.

I had a 1997 Geo metro that had a computer controlled transmission.

So your point was again?

Hell my 1986 Pontiac Fiero GT had computer control of the TCC lockup solenoid. I'm thinking you know nothing at all about cars.

Re:Many possibilities

[drinkypoo]

I'm unsure why you're talking about "maybe one stop."

Because the rear brakes aren't designed to stop the car, they do *up to* 40% of the work, and that's while weight is being transferred to the front wheels. You'll likely overheat them doing just one panic stop. I'm talking about 60 to 0 or similar. If you wait for them to cool you might get another if you haven't cooked the brakes.

On some vehicles, there is a separate set of friction material - typically a small set of brake shoes in a drum inside a brake rotor - but this is very much the exception, not the rule. I recall having seen this on some Volvo and Ford truck models. The brake shoes are laughably small, and it's hard to believe that they would have much impact on a moving vehicle.

Actually, they work fine. They also work even when the main brake is overheated, which is why it's a good system. They take a little longer to stop the vehicle but if you look at the pads there's actually loads of material. On my 1982 300SD there's about as much shoe area as there is actual brake pad area for the actual rear brake.

Re:Many possibilities

[sosume]

I am talking about a European car, manual shift with an electronic parking break. The parking break is a single button next to the steering wheel with the letter 'P' on it, there is no break handle between the front seats. If my breaks fail at high speed, I will need to use the gears and the engine to slow down, not press some silly button and hope that I won't lose control of the vehicle.

Re:Many possibilities

[tibit]

I didn't know that such a stupid thing even existed. One learns something new every day. I though that American mini-pedal emergency brake with locking ratchet was about as stupid as one could go (on many models it needs full engagement, usually followed by locked wheels, in order to release it).

What could possibly go wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I was going to say something, but I can't think of anything clever, because I'm shaking my head in disbelief so fast that I'm getting dizzy. Please tell me that the wireless interface at least has its own fuse that can be pulled.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

On the bright side (for the manufacturer), planned obsolescence is easier once you can update a the car's OS seamlessly.

Re:What could possibly go wrong

[c0lo]

Please tell me that the wireless interface at least has its own fuse that can be pulled.

On behalf of our R&D dept in East Europe and Russia, I can state that we don't know it ... yet. And, unless you aren't a Mercedes owner, we are not going to inform you.
If, however, you own this model, just tell us where it is parked and we'll let you know (if a fuse can be pulled, it's likely we can replace it with absolutely no troubles for your, while you're asleep).

Raising my black hat, I send you my best wishes and hopes of a successful ...(ummm... how to put it?... ah, yes...) collaboration,

(non-readable signature in 133t-sp34k)

Re:What could possibly go wrong

[Opportunist]

In East Europe or Russia, owning ... ok, having a Mercedes should not be an issue. Europe's full of them, just take one.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Opportunist]

Just wait how interesting it can become once cars can also communicate with each other. Think of the possibilities... I could cause a car crash without even leaving the house!

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[digitig]

Soon: - First maleware for cars spotted in the wild. Car manufacturers: "No problem. it only infects the multimedia system" - Maleware displays a huge kitty on the HUD. First malware caused traffic accident with casualties.

I think auto manufacturers are waking up to the fact that women buy cars too.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Soon:
- First maleware

Is that like, a strap-on?

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[geekmux]

On the bright side (for the manufacturer), planned obsolescence is easier once you can update a the car's OS seamlessly.

Yes, and as soon as your cars software is "no longer supported", planned obsolescence also kicks in forcing you to buy a new car, most likely prematurely.

Oh, you didn't like the word "forcing"? I'm sorry. New auto insurance law. "No vehicle will be allowed to be licensed or insured that has been deemed obsolete by the manufacturer or [insert next-gen DHS-style Government regulatory agency here]"

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[siddesu]

I saw it in Terminator 3 already, thank you. The robot chick had pneumatic tits.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Ed_1024]

This brings up the possibility of a car botnet (carnet?) of infected vehicles which do drive-by p0wning when in wireless range of other susceptible models.

I'm sure there'll be lots of security surrounding remote access but given that an automotive black-hat could have complete access to a car's hardware and software for as long as it takes, I'm not optimistic about the outcome (from the man-in-the-street's POV).

I've got a reasonably modern German car and have just had the engine tweaked for better performance & economy by a laptop-wielding specialist. We went for a drive afterwards and he was able to access pretty much every system on board from the computer on his knees. He said the protection/encryption is getting better all the time but so are the crackers... With some of the later cars he has to take the ECU out and plug it into PCs set up in the back of his van before getting the car equivalent of root access.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Wardriving 2.0

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy shit - who wants maleware in their car? I'd prefer femaleware myself. Now, if you meant malware - that's a different animal. I hear it is asexual.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Metabolife]

Is this due to the maleware or the kitty?

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[JDG1980]

What makes you think something like this will happen? Pretty much every other car-safety regulation, ever, applies only to newly manufactured cars. You don't have to get a 1955 Chevy retrofitted with airbags or a pollution-control system in order to keep driving it. And a "classic" car is far, far less safe than anything being sold today (see the 1959 Bel Air crash video for clarification if you doubt this).

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[LoRdTAW]

- Maleware displays a huge kitty on the HUD. First malware caused traffic accident with casualties.

I think goatse would do a better job at causing casualties than a high speed collision.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry because your comment is funny, ridiculous, and probably not too far off from reality.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

That video is absolute nonsense. Read the comments of that video. Older cars are safer, I've seen real accident scenes between older cars and newer SUV's even considerably larger and the SUV is practically destroyed by comparison of the older car which I can't even tell got into an accident to begin with.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[geekmux]

What makes you think something like this will happen? Pretty much every other car-safety regulation, ever, applies only to newly manufactured cars. You don't have to get a 1955 Chevy retrofitted with airbags or a pollution-control system in order to keep driving it. And a "classic" car is far, far less safe than anything being sold today (see the 1959 Bel Air crash video for clarification if you doubt this).

OK, perhaps "force" is a strong word...My apologies.

You have the...ah, "luxury" of paying $3,000/month for your "classic" auto insurance if you wish to continue to drive it anywhere beyond your own mailbox.

Or, we can insure you on a Government-regulated and subscribed model for $59.99/year(Government subsidized rate of course).

Pressure on one's wallet is as effective as a UFC-approved armbar, and eventually everyone either breaks or submits.

Re:what could possibly go wrong

[digitig]

Maleware.

what could possibly go wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Soon:
- First maleware for cars spotted in the wild. Car manufacturers: "No problem. it only infects the multimedia system"
- Maleware displays a huge kitty on the HUD. First malware caused traffic accident with casualties.
- Anti-Virus Software mandatory for cars
- Kaspersky/McAffee/.. : ~40% of all cars infected with one virus or another....

Incoming exploit in 3..2..1...

[Mistakill]

I can see this will be exploited somewhere along the way...

Version 1.0

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, can wait to get buggy version 1.0 delivered with the car and a little note of the "Known issues that will be fixed soon" :-)

Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[Chrisq]

Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers and corporate "fat cats". I couldn't think of a better challenge to Anonymous. Speed limiter to 20mph? Stuck in the driveway? I wait with eagerness.

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[Anonymous Coward]

How 'bout the radio always tuned to FixNews... ...oh, wait.

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[Anonymous Coward]

I wait with eagerness.

I don't. I hope to all goodness that this is supremely unhackable.

Why? Because if this is hackable for "fat cats" it means it's hackable for "joe schmos" when this technology moves down to Fords or Toyotas or Hyundais.

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[FunPika]

20 miles per hour speed limiter? How about limit it to just under the speed limit (since GPS's seem to be able to get that these days). It will effectively piss off people in a lot of areas such as Massachusetts (I have gotten passed on a double yellow there for going slightly over the limit...don't underestimate how much this would piss off Massholes). The 20mph limiter would just make the driver be like "FUCK THIS!", a GPS based limiter could troll the driver and everyone around them in the right areas, at least for a little while.

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[Opportunist]

Speed limiter to 20mph? Try cruise control stuck at 200mph, now here's funny for you!

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[BorgDrone]

Mostly cabs in europe.

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[tippe]

This couldn't work (yet) I'm sure for various reasons (drive by wire has no control over steering), but it's only a matter of time, and once all the pieces are in place, an enterprising hacker should make it their first priority to implement:
1: As each car gets comprimised, randomly assign a "polarity" (+ or -) to the car.
2: Using onboard GPS, RFID, etc, detect when other comprimised cars are nearby
3: Profit! Uh, I mean watch as hilarity ensues as 1600kg magnets either attract or repulse each other at highway speeds...

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[SuricouRaven]

Set to play Never Gonna Give You Up at random intervals, and disable audio controls for the duration.

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[erroneus]

It will be "unhackable" when the community gets their hands on it and takes the keys away from the manufacturing overlords. The incentive flows in the other direction otherwise.

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[zippthorne]

In many areas of massachusetts, speed limits are not set at the speeds the roads were designed for/are safe to operate at, but at revenue generating levels - speeds at which police officers on speed patrol can spend their whole day writing tickets.

Enforcement is still lax, though, because if enforcement was efficient, people would drive at the lower levels to avoid it. Effectively, mass does not have speed limits. It has a "random road tax."

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[WindBourne]

That is because they were required to buy them. Basically, EU, esp. germany, believe in supporting their own. Good for you.

Re:Well Mercedes are a favourate of bankers

[sjames]

Fortunately (for everyone else), the systems are all integrated these days, so I say at random while driving, the car should lock the doors, roll up the windows, and start unevenly switching between floored accelerator and slammed brakes while the radio plays Yakkity Sax at full volume. Perhaps the auto-steering (for the parallel parking feature) can be engaged as well so it can swerve sharply in time with the music.

A disaster waiting to happen

[Anonymous Coward]

An what happens the first time they send out a bum update and brick thousands of cars? Particularly if some of them happen to be moving on the road at the time.

Re:A disaster waiting to happen

[Jessified]

I second that. All I can say is I'm glad it is not HP executing this plan.

And then the police got the feature they wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

How long until all police cars will be fited with programs that uploads a breaks-is-always-on update?

Re:And then the police got the feature they wanted

[arth1]

How long until all police cars will be fited with programs that uploads a breaks-is-always-on update?

You're about 12 years too late.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/03/hacker-bricks-cars/

Re:And then the police got the feature they wanted

[erroneus]

Are you saying this is the year 2022??? Crap! I'm really, really, really late for a lot of stuff!!

Re:And then the police got the feature they wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

The hacker made use of a system that had been implemented 10 years ago from the article's time, meaning in 2000 or thereabouts.

Re:And then the police got the feature they wanted

[arth1]

Are you saying this is the year 2022??? Crap! I'm really, really, really late for a lot of stuff!!

Since this is /. and it's too much to hope for someone skimming through AFA, let me quote from it:
"First rolled out about 10 years ago, remote immobilization systems are a controversial answer to delinquent car payments [...]"
So 2010, when the article was written, minus 10 years brings us to 2000, which makes the GGP late by around 12 years.

Who pays?

[skovnymfe]

I'm assuming the car connects to some sort of 3g or other wireless network to download updates.

Who pays for this?

Re:Who pays?

[gl4ss]

mercedes.
or in other words - the guy who buys the car. if you could hack that data connection to contact whatever else sites though.. I'm assuming it would do it via 3g actually too. it wouldn't be too hard for mercedes to negotiate europe wide contracts for it for fairly cheap(the data amounts will be rather low). so it might be something like 200 bucks for 3 years of updates, which considering the total cost of the car isn't really that much. if it can prevent one recall for a model that would otherwise need the dealer to do "free" work billed to mb then from mb's viewpoint it's a good deal.

Re:Who pays?

[Opportunist]

If money is an issue, you obviously should not own a Mercedes.

Re:Who pays?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mercedes driver doesn't care who pays.

Re:Who pays?

[skovnymfe]

Sure but paying big bucks for a Mercedes, and then afterwards paying big bucks because it decides to go updating its operating system over a wireless connection while you're accidentally overnighting in a place where you haven't got service.

We've all heard the stories. "Oh, you went outside your coverage area? Pay up sucker! $500 per MB!"

Yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

TOTALLY a good idea ...
coz nobody will find a way to abuse this
right?

Ok , but what happens if...

[Viol8]

... the car decides to download and install new firmware at the exact same time as Mick Mechanic pulls the battery or the main fuse out? A very VERY expensive brick?

Re:Ok , but what happens if...

[will_die]

I would guess they have a information box informing the user there is a patch available that the user has to initiate and requires that the car be parked with the engine off.

Re:Ok , but what happens if...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the upgrade just didn't succeed and you keep using the old firmware? It IS possible to implement firmware upgrade in a non-stupid way too you know.

Re:Ok , but what happens if...

[MachineShedFred]

You realize that "Mick Mechanic" isn't going to be working on that car, because it comes with an all-encompasing service plan, right?

The only guys turning wrenches on that car are employed at the Benz dealership; and it likely doesn't start any update until after 10 minutes of ECU inactivity - plenty of time to raise the hood and disconnect the negative battery terminal.

Re:Ok , but what happens if...

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens is that Mick gets fired when his boss realizes that he just had to pay to replace all the computer modules in your car, free of charge.

Re:Ok , but what happens if...

[somarilnos]

I'm hoping that it has redundancy involved - the same way there's a backup BIOS on some mobos so that you don't brick it if there's an error while flashing. Maybe the initial version of it permanently flashed on a ROM, that it will use if a later version is corrupted (which can be checked by CRC or something as such). Considering that this is a remote thing, you especially have to consider the possibility that the vehicle can go out of range to receive additional parts of the update, etc, so there's a lot of ways that this could go wrong if they haven't thought through the possibilities. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that they've considered that. The bigger concern I have is that they had better make sure that their software QC does not get lazy with this option available. A lot of times, that is the case - you figure if you mess up, you can always send a new patch with minimal error, but within a critical system such as a car, if you mess up badly enough and don't catch it before it ships, you can kill someone. Let's hope someone up top at corporate isn't thinking that this means they can reduce costs from a QC standpoint.

Re:Ok , but what happens if...

[Joe_Dragon]

well you can put at very least put fall back code in a EPROM that can download and install a update. (Does not need to be the full code)

Re:Ok , but what happens if...

[drinkypoo]

The only guys turning wrenches on that car are employed at the Benz dealership; and it likely doesn't start any update until after 10 minutes of ECU inactivity - plenty of time to raise the hood and disconnect the negative battery terminal.

No, because people are most likely to not have signal where they stop the car. The download therefore likely goes on whenever, and the PCM will switch to the new firmware image when appropriate.

Re:Ok , but what happens if...

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize that "Mick Mechanic" isn't going to be working on that car, because it comes with an all-encompasing service plan, right?

The only guys turning wrenches on that car are employed at the Benz dealership

So Mercedes still has an "Irish need not apply" policy?

Sometimes, It's Good To Be Old-School

[longbot]

No automatic updates for me, unless Mercedes wants to install a computer to update in my '84 300TD.

Re:Sometimes, It's Good To Be Old-School

[drinkypoo]

Maybe they will automatically send a guy in coveralls out to replace your TCM or EGR amplifier, via a scheduling system. That's automatic, right?

Re:Sometimes, It's Good To Be Old-School

[Anonymous Coward]

'74 Stingray. I am getting to know every inch of it. Parasites will be removed and squashed.

Re:Sometimes, It's Good To Be Old-School

[longbot]

Good luck to 'em. That car is older than 80% of the kids at the local MB dealership!

Turn on the CU?

[sirdude]

"In a process called ‘reflashing,’ the Mercedes system can turn on the car operating system (CU), download the new application, then cut itself off."

So the car is regularly polling a server and can switch itself on? That sounds decidedly unsettling.

Could somebody elaborate on the diagnostic capabilities of these cars? Do they alert you if your brakes are inefficient or if your tyres are wearing out? I'm too poor to afford one to know :(

Cheers.

Re:Turn on the CU?

[MachineShedFred]

If it works like the iDrive system in BMW, the ECU stays active for about 10 minutes after the car is turned off, in order to remember navigation position and the creature comfort stuff like heated seats being turned on. Mercedes is likely putting this update check in after such an interval.

As for the brake and tire wear checking, that's done by a Mark-I eyeball installed in a service technician at the dealership, which is included in the service plan that comes with the car.

Re:Turn on the CU?

[arth1]

Could somebody elaborate on the diagnostic capabilities of these cars? Do they alert you if your brakes are inefficient or if your tyres are wearing out? I'm too poor to afford one to know :(

I predict that they will, indeed, monitor a lot of variables that, if not warrants, at least suggests maintenance. And that the data will be sold to marketers who can compete for the chance to market new synthetic oil to you starting a thousand miles before the suggested oil change, or new tires when the ones you have approach their life.

The scariest thing is that a lot of consumers would like this, and will think that the discounted offers and presented "options" will save them money and is a useful service.

When I go to buy a new car a few weeks or months from now, I will look for a vehicle that's controlled by me, not others, and that does not allow push of data in either direction without an explicit (not implicit) authorization. And I realize that it does little good - there's no stopping the tide of lemmings rushing for the cliff.

Re:Turn on the CU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Many modern car's are 'always' on. The only way to turn them completely off is to disconnect (all?) batteries. They tend to run down the battery if you don't use them for a month or two, some Benz even come with a trickle charger just to prevent this.

More closely related to this story: we were developing a browser based service for the current C-Class Benz before it was available for sale, and had a prototype car supplied by Mercedes in a garage just outside our office for weeks. When we ran into too may bugs and needed an Update, they couldn't supply an USB stick or anything similar, instead, they had someone drive a new car with updated firmware ~200 Miles to our office.

Virus scan on Cars

[million_monkeys]

Soon: - First maleware for cars spotted in the wild. Car manufacturers: "No problem. it only infects the multimedia system" - Maleware displays a huge kitty on the HUD. First malware caused traffic accident with casualties. - Anti-Virus Software mandatory for cars - Kaspersky/McAffee/.. : ~40% of all cars infected with one virus or another....

Great, so now my car's only gonna go 15 mph because McAffee is using 90% of my engine resources.

Transparent upgrades - yeah, right

[melonman]

If Mercedes has cracked the trick of 100% successful upgrades over air, great! If not, I'd prefer to know that the systems controlling almost everything on the Mercedes hurtling towards me is not going to die at some arbitrary moment. Bricked iPhones are inconvenient. Bricked 2-ton vehicles moving at 70mph are very inconvenient!

Re:Transparent upgrades - yeah, right

[Swampash]

Remember how you could always spot a Microsoft "Patch Tuesday" when you got to work and found all the desktop machines had rebooted overnight?

Spotting Mercedes Patch Tuesday on the autobahn is going to be epic.

Re:Transparent upgrades - yeah, right

[Registered Coward v2]

If Mercedes has cracked the trick of 100% successful upgrades over air, great! If not, I'd prefer to know that the systems controlling almost everything on the Mercedes hurtling towards me is not going to die at some arbitrary moment. Bricked iPhones are inconvenient. Bricked 2-ton vehicles moving at 70mph are very inconvenient!

No, MB has figured out how to avoid paying dealers to reflash cars for critical updates by bypassing the dealer. The dealer also gets to spend time on out of warranty repairs that actually make them money instead of spending valuable mechanic time own low reimbursement warranty work.

Re:Transparent upgrades - yeah, right

[drinkypoo]

They have the advantage that every PCM is identical, probably not even multiple revisions. They contract for a certain number of them to be produced and their contractees contract for a number of identical parts to produce them with. So it's actually feasible for them to do some fairly comprehensive testing. Further, if they don't activate the new firmware until you shut off the vehicle, then there's no risk of it dying while rolling. And if the Mercedes doesn't start when you try, well, that will hardly raise any flags :)

Re:Transparent upgrades - yeah, right

[KevReedUK]

The dealer also gets to spend time on out of warranty repairs

Not to mention repairs caused by collisions occurring when the vehicle locks up mid-update. This may save the dealers from having to expend hours (billable to MB) on warranty software updates, but may increase the workload of their body-shops.

On the other hand, they could be sensible about it and have a system whereby updates never happen whilst the ignition is in the on position, updates are downloaded to a separate area of the firmware chip and hashes compared to ensure viability before being made accessible, possibly also with a reference version stored in ROM in case all else fails. If they have any plans to get anything along these lines out the doors without TÜV standing in their way, they'll no doubt be implementing at least one or more of these.

Maybe in the US

[Any Web Loco]

Maybe in the US. Here, in the socialist hell that is Europe, they're really fairly common.

Re:Maybe in the US

[Hentes]

Yeah, the guys driving a Mercedes truck are certainly not upper-class.

Sounds like a really bad idea. :)

[Colven]

First question that came to mind when I read the article was, "will the update be pushed, or will the driver have to initiate it?" Second question was, "updates can't be done while the engine's running..... can it?" I assume this mbrace2 system is tied into the car' main OS based on what the "secrets" linked article says.

Can't find many details atm, but evidently you get to pay a yearly subscription fee for the updates... sounds nice.

Best scenario...

[DrogMan]

So you're the getaway driver sitting in the stolen Merc - your partners in crime are runing towards you. You hit the 'start' button... "Please wait while we install the latest software update. This process will take approximately 5 of your finest German minutes." Fantastic!

Re:Best scenario...

[virgnarus]

At least they're using German minutes. Companies are notorious for using the dreaded American equivalent.

Re:Best scenario...

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is still better than a Mexican minute.

Tracking ?

[Anonymousslashdot]

The system is also able to collect any kind of data from the connected sensors and send them automatically and wirelessly to the manufacturer. It's called "automatic updates" these days, but it's just another name for eavesdropping.

Spot the real issue

[Anonymous Coward]

"Our cars run millions of lines of code that need constant and, often, critical updates."

Spot where the real issue is.

I remember a time where computer games were tested before they were released, because there was simply no way to update them. I would expect a car (where real lives are at stake) to be tested better then a game.

Simultaneous Worldwide GTA ?

[Anonymous Coward]

In a period of million-strong protests, imagine an unbroken row of Mercedes lined up parallel to the protest route. Or, say, in front of it, to soak up the water, sound-cannons, rubber bullets, real bullets, beanbags, ... and all the other stuff supposedly democratic 'representative' governments are so willing to employ against their own population's wishes.

I''d better start writing the plot resume - before reality outpaces any further attempt at fiction.

Secret capability

[Anonymous Coward]

From the Mercedes site:

Remote Vehicle Diagnostics
Beyond allowing you to perform a check of your vehicle's main systems remotely, mbrace2 technology can automatically alert both you and your authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer to potential issues before they become full-fledged problems. In addition, it enables your vehicle to receive software updates wirelessly through the mbrace2 network.

So while maybe undesirable, not sure it's 'secret'.

really good.
lease takeover

Avi Rubin hacking cars. TED.com

[Leafwiz]

Hacking cars has already been done, and is shown here in this ted.com video. 4:42 is where he explains about it.

http://www.ted.com/talks/avi_rubin_all_your_devices_can_be_hacked.html

Many of the internal systems was hacked, including the system for breaking.

From ted.com:
"Could someone hack your pacemaker? At TEDxMidAtlantic, Avi Rubin explains how hackers are compromising cars, smartphones and medical devices, and warns us about the dangers of an increasingly hack-able world.

  Avi Rubin is a professor of computer science and director of Health and Medical Security Lab at Johns Hopkins University. His current research is focused on the security of electronic medical records"

No thanks

[shoehornjob]

I'll take the dumb car that doesn't spy on my every move and report that information to the highest bidder.

Re:No thanks

[flyingfsck]

A Trabant in other words.

Re:No thanks

[shoehornjob]

Well maybe not quite that extreme. I was thinking more in terms of dumb as in not connected to the internet or gps.

Now there's a good idea...NOT!

[Targon]

There are a lot of people out there looking to do something malicious to others, so here's the perfect way to open the door to secretly messing with Mercedes owners. Just get a small transmitter used to emulate the official server, get it close to a Mercedes, and now push an update that KILLS the car. No fix until it gets back to a dealership where the chip can be replaced with one that isn't borked.

Re:Now there's a good idea...NOT!

[drinkypoo]

Just get a small transmitter used to emulate the official server,

When someone says "Just" or "all you have to do" they prove that they have no idea what they are talking about or how to do it.

No fix until it gets back to a dealership where the chip can be replaced with one that isn't borked.

Actually, it'll be no fix until the PCM is sent back to the rebuilder who will JTAG (or equivalent) flash it. Nobody is going to be desoldering flash chips because you reflashed a PCM.

What is this "reflashing" you speak of?

[Gothmolly]

Why quote the word? It's a common English word these days, especially amongst nerds reading slashdot.

What about modded cars?

[Registered Coward v2]

Many cars today have flash able computer systems that basically keep track of everything on the car such as bluetooth, headlights etc. With DIY mods, it's often necessary to reflect the software yourself or pay a dealer to do it. Unfortunately, it's often not as easy as pulling a part and reinstalling the upgraded one; for example a component pulled from a salvage vehicle may not properly register with the software, causing much grief as you troubleshot; even for a factory trained mechanic at the dealer who has all the equipment and manufacturer tech support on call.

I can image the grief a wireless flash might cause on a factory car with mods, potentially rendering it undrivable; and leaving the owner fighting the factory over whose fault it is.

Re:What about modded cars?

[guisar]

All the more reason to go open source ECU. I used to own Mercedes- for twenty years in fact but no more- they have become unreliable POS. I now drive a Subaru which in fact has a fully-flashed open source ECU. Both the car and the tools are under the communities control- not MBs or Subarus.

Re:What about modded cars?

[RockDoctor]

Your scenario, with my emphasis :

I can image the grief a wireless flash might cause on a factory car with mods, potentially rendering it undrivable;

And your question :

and leaving the owner fighting the factory over whose fault it is.

If the mods were manufacturer-approved and dealer-installed, then it's the manufacturer-dealer-network's problem. Otherwise, it's the problem of the person who designed or installed the unapproved modification.

Oh, and by driving the vehicle with unapproved modifications, you were almost certainly in violation of the terms and conditions of your insurance policy (unless you'd told them exactly what you'd done to the car). So, potentially you've been committing criminal offences of driving without insurance too.

That would be the way I read the law (in my jurisdiction) ; you may not like it, but that's not a problem I lose sleep over.

Grey area : permitted non-dealer modifications. I've just (this morning) taken the winter tyres off the car. They're not ones from the dealer (the dealer was out of stock, it was that time of year), but they're the correct size and other details and winter tyres are mentioned in TFMs, so I assume that's in the range of permitted modifications.

Re:What about modded cars?

[Registered Coward v2]

Your scenario, with my emphasis :

I can image the grief a wireless flash might cause on a factory car with mods, potentially rendering it undrivable;

And your question :

and leaving the owner fighting the factory over whose fault it is.

If the mods were manufacturer-approved and dealer-installed, then it's the manufacturer-dealer-network's problem. Otherwise, it's the problem of the person who designed or installed the unapproved modification.

Oh, and by driving the vehicle with unapproved modifications, you were almost certainly in violation of the terms and conditions of your insurance policy (unless you'd told them exactly what you'd done to the car). So, potentially you've been committing criminal offences of driving without insurance too.

That would be the way I read the law (in my jurisdiction) ; you may not like it, but that's not a problem I lose sleep over.

Not sure you where you are, but in general most mods to cars would not void insurance coverage in the US. Wether or not they cover damage or loss to them is another story.

At any rate, I was thinking about software mods - such as changing build codes to activate features not originally active or if you add something such as Bluetooth. On a BMW, you need to change the codes in the software to do this. My scenario is more what happens if the manufacturer overwrites your code with new code that causes problems? They are assuming a factory standard build which may not be the case; it's also possible that a dealer code install an option and reprogram and unless that change is reflected in whatever database is used to verify the standard confit they could even mess up a legitimate mod. Or, if they upload the car code and patch it how do they ensure the patch works for the car specific case?

To me it's a reasonably foreseeable possibility that the code in a car is no longer stock and thus an auto patch is not a good idea; at least giver users a choice wether to install it.

Re:What about modded cars?

[RockDoctor]

Not sure you where you are, but in general most mods to cars would not void insurance coverage in the US.

I'm not in the US, thank Allah's left testicle, but any sane insurance company would improve their income:liability ratio by voiding any insurance policy for a vehicle with modifications. That is why the put the poison words in their policies about "any" modifications into the contract. You changed the carbs on your car ... not an authorised or agreed modification ... not detailed on your premium agreement ... invalid insurance. You changed the suspension for [any of stiffer shocks, lowered springs, phase of the moon] ... it's not the car we-the-insurance-company quoted you for, It's not on the description of the vehicle, so the insurance is not now (and never has been - you lied on your application) valid. Go directly to Jail ; do not pass "Go".

At any rate, I was thinking about software mods - such as changing build codes to activate features not originally active

And you can prove, to the insurance company's satisfaction that this is not going to change (say) the performance of the ABS? The important word is, of course, "prove". Don't hold your breath waiting for assistance from the car company.

at least giver users a choice wether to install it.

"whether", not "wether". Regardless, I cannot conceive that a car manufacturer would find it financially or politically (NB : description of electorate below) useful to allow users to do "X" (where "X" is nore than filling up the fluids containers - petrol, screen wash ... that's it. Brake and engine oil are too complex for users.), when "X" can be cast as requiring the paid services of a trained dealer engineer.

The purpose of dealers (the "electorate", from the car manufacturer's point of view) is to be assured of a revenue stream (from servicing, etc).

The purpose of car manufacturer (from the dealers' point of view) is to be assured of a revenue stream (from new sales etc).

If you can see any interest for the consumer in there ... then you've got better eyes than I have, Gunga-Din!

There is probably a way around this : get a couple of hundred thousand other users of precisely the same vehicle as you, with precisely the same modification, applied in precisely the same way ... and you might be able to get it considered as an authorised modification. Enjoy trying to herd those cats!

In the real world, modifications that don't appreciably change the vehicle's performance are unlikely to attract attention, but modifications that do, will. Your opinion, as a petrol-head counts for nothing against the opinion of the insurance company (who are not, corporately, petrol-heads).

Re:What about modded cars?

[Registered Coward v2]

Not sure you where you are, but in general most mods to cars would not void insurance coverage in the US.

I'm not in the US, thank Allah's left testicle, but any sane insurance company would improve their income:liability ratio by voiding any insurance policy for a vehicle with modifications. That is why the put the poison words in their policies about "any" modifications into the contract. You changed the carbs on your car ... not an authorised or agreed modification ... not detailed on your premium agreement ... invalid insurance. You changed the suspension for [any of stiffer shocks, lowered springs, phase of the moon] ... it's not the car we-the-insurance-company quoted you for, It's not on the description of the vehicle, so the insurance is not now (and never has been - you lied on your application) valid.

You keep saying this but that's simply not the case in the US, even if it is where you are. While you certainly could conceivably do something so extreme that your insurance company would drop coverage; many mods will have no effect beyond possibly recovering the value in the event of theft / fire / collision. Even then, most will not. For sample, a stereo mod would still be covered if it was stolen. My point is that many mods that were easily done w/o software mods now require mods to installed software and an auto update may have different results for a modded car than an unmoved one - adding risk to the process. BMW, for example, keeps a build order in software so any changes to many things requires changing settings and reflashing; which can be done outside of BMW's control.

at least giver users a choice wether to install it.

"whether", not "wether".

Potatoe, Tomatoe Someday sepal and grammer cheekers will work better...

Regardless, I cannot conceive that a car manufacturer would find it financially or politically (NB : description of electorate below) useful to allow users to do "X" (where "X" is nore than filling up the fluids containers - petrol, screen wash ... that's it. Brake and engine oil are too complex for users.), when "X" can be cast as requiring the paid services of a trained dealer engineer.

In the US at least that is illegal - you cannot require dealer or manufacturer service to maintain a warranty; you just have to use OEM quality parts. Of course, manufacturers make it hard to DIY - BMW for example require reprogramming for a battery change; so it's a $400 job; or you buy a $200 after market programming kit and do it (along with many other things) yourself.

In the real world, modifications that don't appreciably change the vehicle's performance are unlikely to attract attention, but modifications that do, will. Your opinion, as a petrol-head counts for nothing against the opinion of the insurance company (who are not, corporately, petrol-heads).

True, but many performance mods do not void insurance coverage; even if they make measurable changes in performance. Warranty coverage is another issue.

Re:What about modded cars?

[RockDoctor]

True, but many performance mods do not void insurance coverage;

I'll let you take the risk of putting that to the test. An increasingly frequent response by the police (here) to finding a vehicle without insurance cover is to have it crushed. This, of course will not affect your financial obligations to paying for the vehicle. So I'll let you take that risk.

(You get 20 days from detection to produce valid insurance, as well as paying the fine. No pay ; it gets sold or crushed ; you continue to pay any finance on it, because it's your responsibility to have the vehicle insured.)

If the insurance companies in America are as slack as you're saying, then I'd expect that to change. As I said, denying insurance coverage improves the income (you keep the premiums so far) to liability ("you're not covered ; go away") ratio, which is pretty much all that insurance is about.

For sample, a stereo mod

I was only considering "drive train" modifications. Conceivably the leather cover I put onto the issue steering wheel might just possibly make it as a "mod". Stereos, interior stuff and fluffy dice hainging from the rear view mirror ... that's like caring about your hair cut - I can see that some people do care about such things, but I simply do not understand why they care.

("For sample," ; that's a usage I've not seen before. Is it common? Becoming more common? American English? Or ... it has a Caribbean feel to it.))

Most engine software modifications I'd suspect are "drive train" modifications in this light (and why else would you do one? I am not now a petrol head and am unlikely to ever become one ; they're boxes with wheels at each corner and large bills attached, which sink both money and time.)

The purpose of car companies is to sell cars and to a lesser degree parts ; for this they need their dealer networks. So, for a very long time they have been designing cars so that they can only be serviced by the dealers, often using special, patented licensed and serial-numbered tools :

In approximately 1982 I was hitch-hiking and got a lift for a couple of hundred miles from an engineer for IIRC Ford, moving between their London-ish plant and their Liverpool-ish plant for a meeting. His task for the last few months was to re-design the clutch for a new model so that it could not be changed without dropping the engine out on a sub-frame jig, splitting it into two parts on the jig, changing the clutch then re-assembling on the jig, needing laser tools for alignment of parts. That jig, the plan was, was to never be sold to anyone, but to be leased to registered dealers only. Usual design and patent protection, so that any copied jigs could be seized and destroyed. As an engineer, he hated having to create problems like that ; as a person in the vehicle business, he understood fully why it was a good thing for the company. And of course, there's nothing illegal about it. There's also nothing illegal about a dealer refusing to perform a clutch change with their leased equipment without using genuine manufacturer parts. It's simply a question of whether the one clutch change is worth losing their registered dealer status.

In the US at least that is illegal - you cannot require dealer or manufacturer service to maintain a warranty;

In the incredible (i.e., "not believable") circumstance that I ever find myself maintaining a car in America ... no, it's not worth considering. Someone Else's Problem.

But why can't you design something so that it is impossible to service *properly* (i.e. in accordance with the manufacturer's service manual) without using tools and equipment that are simply not sold to the public? I'm almost certain that it's done already. Case in point : I have SCUBA regulators that need to be serviced. The regulators require O-rings of particul

Constant and critical updates

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who finds this statement disturbing regarding the firmware of a car which potentially can have all aspects of driving controlled by wire?

"Our cars run millions of lines of code that need CONSTANT and, OFTEN, CRITICAL updates" (Emphasis added by me)

That's "malware", you insensitive clod.

[Anonymous Coward]

Insensitive? Sorry, I meant illiterate. Also hysterical and technically ignorant, but we'll leave it there for today.

I hope it only updates while the car is stationary

[rossdee]

The las thibg Michael Shumacher needs is to be approaching a corner at 150mph and the car decides to update the brake control software.

arth1 wanted 4 murder (of the English language)

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL -> http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2773441&cid=39617909 hahahaha

and so

[Taibhsear]

And so... It has come to this.

what about roaming?

[Joe_Dragon]

As you can in a border area pick up a NON US tower and face data fees that can hit highs of $20 a MEG. Now how will be stuck with that bill?

Also you can be driving in canada and will the car stop trying to update it self or just auto do it with a very hidden menu to trun it off.

Re:what about roaming?

[drinkypoo]

As you can in a border area pick up a NON US tower and face data fees that can hit highs of $20 a MEG. Now how will be stuck with that bill?

Nobody; it just won't connect to those towers at all. Nobody is expecting you to drive your Mercedes into Mexico and anyone on the border is a corner case that can be ignored, they can go to the dealer and get flashed through the scan tool as has been done since time immemorial. Or indeed, they could reflash you with a picocell so that if there is a problem you're already at the dealer. They can loan you a car if your car doesn't start.

Also you can be driving in canada and will the car stop trying to update it self or just auto do it with a very hidden menu to trun it off.

The car probably won't switch to the new code until you cycle the ignition switch. On boot it likely checks for a boot param to tell it which image to load.

Re:what about roaming?

[Joe_Dragon]

but it may start downloading when you are in canada and with a US SIM that will cost you a LOT.

Re:what about roaming?

[drinkypoo]

but it may start downloading when you are in canada and with a US SIM that will cost you a LOT.

No, it won't, because the automakers will already have their own roaming agreements with US and Canada cell providers. Autos are designed for sale in the US and Canada (same models, basically, except Canadian models must have daytime running lights) and it wouldn't make sense to do otherwise.

arth1 wanted for murder (of the English language)!

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL -> http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2773441&cid=39617909 hahahahahahahahahaha

Here we go again...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am refreshed to see that we have learned precisely nothing from the internet and lately 'smart' phones. Remote diagnostics are probably useful (I remember fondly the sign on the PDP-11/70 years ago that lit up 'REMOTE' when engaged. One of the staff added to the front panel -- 'your chance of getting anything done today is...'. But having some server in Deutschland reach out and update my software while driving along does not fill me with confidence. One wonders if the aviation industry will be salivating at the idea of updating an airbus in flight...

Re:Here we go again...

[Attila Dimedici]

Who says the server will be in Deutschland? I would be more concerned with the unauthorized by the manufacturer server a few miles away that someone uses to update my car's software for the fun of it.

Re:Here we go again...

[nedlohs]

Because obviously they wouldn't do it when the car is parked or anything. No of course they'll just update the software while the car is in motion because they are morons.

Actually maybe someone else is the moron here.

car a jiffy lube void warranty void warranty!

[Anonymous Coward]

car a jiffy lube void warranty void warranty!

Following Tesla's lead

[WindBourne]

REMOTE DIAGNOSTICS

An additional benefit of Roadster ownership made possible by firmware is Tesla’s ability to diagnose a car’s operations remotely. If an owner feels something has gone wrong with their car, remote diagnosis enables the Tesla Rangers to determine the issue and a solution without direct access to the car.

The Roadster firmware contains a system that allows the car to “talk” to headquarters if the customer chooses. In the situations where customers have opted-in, the firmware team has used information transmitted to Tesla to alert an owner of a pending problem and constantly innovate Roadster firmware.
Tesla had this several years ago. The big difference is that Tesla lets you know about it. Mercedes just rips it off and keeps quiet about it. Nothing new.

Such paranoia and false attribution here.

[WindBourne]

Tesla has been doing this for several years. They wait until middle of the night and the car is plugged in. Then re-flash. No big issues. For those of you thinking that this is a bad thing, they monitor batteries, provide updates, and even allow you to download your own information. My only issue with this is the idea that access COULD be provided to the feds/local police for seeing where the car is. However, I am also guessing that this will be done on all cars over the next 5 years. The reason is that all car makers will want similar capabilities to what Tesla has. Model S goes far beyond the Windows nightmare that Ford has.

In addition, my guess is that Mercedes is borrowing the idea, if not the code, from Tesla. Keep in mind that Mercedes bought a LOT of tech from tesla.

arth1 "wanted 4 murder" (of the English language)

[Anonymous Coward]

LMAO -> http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2773441&cid=39618071

There's a Guy Fawkes mask on my dashboard

[swschrad]

is that the reason that my car is doing 90 in reverse locked in a tight circle, or is my payment due?

Oooh, fancy.

[erroar]

I don't see how this is new or revolutionary, the cars have had GPS (wireless!) for awhile now... I think they just had their "millions of lines of code" finally work enough times so that they're comfortable reflashing a vehicle remotely. Which makes me a bit nervous, I'd almost rather have a mechanic stick a flash drive in, so when it fucks up he has to fix it (avoiding me a tow).

Re:on the fly

[TaoPhoenix]

Sure, you pinpointed one of the really eerie parts of this.

Let's even say it's not hackers, can you imagine if the company itself messed up its update, even just on the install? You're going 65 miles down the road, then the car freezes for two seconds while the update installs?!

Yeesh.

That's why

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why I'm waiting for the iCar from Apple. It will just work and not get malware!

It is a 'Handbrake'

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a handbrake. It can be used in emergencies, such as failure of the main (dual) braking system. It should be used for parking. It can also be used for other purposes such as doing a 'handbrake turn'.

I have used a handbrake when I drove onto a muddy verge. One rear wheel just spun when I tried to drive off, the differential passing all power to the spinning wheel. By applying the correct amount of handbrake to resist the spin, some power went to the other wheel and I could drive off. This only works for rear wheel drive.

don't use them for a getaway

[ozduo]

"sorry guys we have to wait until the car re flashes itself. in the mean time we can play spot the swat team!"

OH, so they can brick your vehicle from anywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

This SOUNDS good on the surface, but, I ALWAYS have issues with making major software updates remotely and without warning.

Being in IT, I've had to back out WAY to many "FIXES" that killed the system. My wife and children have iPods and every update runs the risk of having to completely restore the #(% thing from backups.

Imagine a software update that shuts down every Benz on the Five during rush hour on Friday evening?