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It's unfortunate we've sidetracked so far off of the original thread. Stay focused so I don't have to keep doing this to you.. :(

Stay at home moms play a whole host of games. Why would you possibly think otherwise? Welcome to 2007, my disillusioned friend. Honestly, teenage to 20 something males playing The Sims? 54+ million of them? Are you serious? A report in 2004 showed 2/3 of MSN's 8.7 million users were women.

My earlier statements come from first hand knowledge. My mom is a grandparent, and my sister is a stay at home mom, and they both play The Sims. They both have a whole host of friends within their same demographic that they talk to online about the game, if not play along with them. Myself, I've played with countless non-teenager or 20 something males in numerous games. (WoW, Command & Conquer, Age of Empires, etc.) Since I know my first hand experiences mean nothing to you, I'll continue on.

I could honestly post hundreds of articles that disprove your unfortunately naive view of gaming, but I'll start with just a few to hopefully make it easier to digest.

Have a look at this article which outlines the fact that women over 18 are 38% of all gamers. I don't know, but that doesn't seem like ..what'd you call it.. "in the noise" to me.

Please keep reading and have a look at another article about women playing WoW, and why they enjoy it as an outlet. The article states there are over 5 million stay at home moms, and you're lead to believe that when the kids are gone to school, all they do is cook and clean?

Don't stop now. Read another piecethat outlines all of the myths that you apparently still believe. How about that less than 30% of gamers are under age 18? How about nearly half (48.6%) of the PC entertainment software purchases in 1998 were women. Oh, and nearly half of the purchases of online games of any genre are women. Most of this data is from a few years ago, and the trends were already starting.

I'd agree, you won't find women playing games like Quake, Counterstrike, or Madden as often as men, but you will find them casually gaming, most likely online, as the social aspect seems to be a key factor in attracting women to games. Many of the games women play may not necessarily have DX prerequisite (web based games), but the gaming demographic is not limited to teenage or 20 something males. Not even close.

It would seem that a for-profit company can not technically have volunteers. If people are doing work for a for-profit company the company is obliged to pay them. Maybe that's why Slashdot never accepts my story submissions...

Women make up at best 40% or market, with women over 40 being the largest segment. Women tend to play solitare, The Sims, and some "online" games. Are you seriously arguing that G4 simultaneously target very lucrative 18-35 year old males market AND the 40+ year old women market? What would this be? "G-Phoria is brought to you by Boniva."?

That's just dumb. The interesection of these two markets is pretty much empty. While some women play games, they don't play the same games as the rest of market. Sure 18-35 year old males also play The Sims, but there's no way to sell to both markets simultaneously.

For those interested in women gamers as a distinct phenomenon and the perspectives of women gamers as relevant to game design choices, I find womengamers.com's analysis of various prominent female characters from recent gaming history fascinating. Certainly worth the read.

They may be less than men, but they exist and form communities.

What about those people who play the opposite gender in online games?

By at least one account up to 56% of male players and up to 33% of female players play an opposite gender character. Do these avatars reflect their real-life persona in some way? I personally don't feel I'm anything like my EQ level 63 Female High-Elf Cleric. I simply played a female because of the social advantage gained in a game like EQ.
___
Slim Cognito

Get your own FREE iPod and help me get mine at the same time.

If you're concerned about the legitimacy of the free iPod offer, check out this Wired magazine article.

It's not the fault of the packaging. Okay, so her breasts are lethal weapons, sure. But I

like the cover art. It shows that she's strong, she's tough, she's an adventurer, she's solo - she doesn't need a man! She *owns* those guns, and she knows how to use them. What's not to like?

Whoa whoa whoa - back that up there. She LIKES the cover art? Lara Croft? What the hell? Look at her breasts! They're huge! And those shorts are TINY! How could any woman *LIKE* Lara Croft's signature pose? Its so blatantly sexual! By definition, all women should hate it, right?! WRONG. Like I said again and again: Women do not mind attractive females in games. They enjoy their sexuality too, because its *part* of how they define themselves as a woman. They IDENTIFY with a woman's sexual power. So what do they hate? Read on:

But the hype surrounding Lara Croft was gross. The hype undercut her image as strong smart archeologist. The hype made her into a sex kitten.

And BINGO! It was the marketing! The focus! Here, a female gamer was impressed not only with the attractiveness of Lara, but with her strength and confidence as well. For a b

It's not the fault of the packaging. Okay, so her breasts are lethal weapons, sure. But I

like the cover art. It shows that she's strong, she's tough, she's an adventurer, she's solo - she doesn't need a man! She *owns* those guns, and she knows how to use them. What's not to like?

Whoa whoa whoa - back that up there. She LIKES the cover art? Lara Croft? What the hell? Look at her breasts! They're huge! And those shorts are TINY! How could any woman *LIKE* Lara Croft's signature pose? Its so blatantly sexual! By definition, all women should hate it, right?! WRONG. Like I said again and again: Women do not mind attractive females in games. They enjoy their sexuality too, because its *part* of how they define themselves as a woman. They IDENTIFY with a woman's sexual power. So what do they hate? Read on:

But the hype surrounding Lara Croft was gross. The hype undercut her image as strong smart archeologist. The hype made her into a sex kitten.

And BINGO! It was the marketing! The focus! Here, a female gamer was impressed not only with the attractiveness of Lara, but with her strength and confidence as well. For a b

Well, that's a little bit of an over-simplification . . . I agree that females tend to enjoy these kinds of games more, but that's no reason to ignore the women who play less "traditional" games like CS.

Also, for more information and discussion on this type of topic, see WomenGamers.com.

Guys don't make up as large a percentage of the market as they think. Games are marketed towards guys because guys are marketing them. I'm not sure what the numbers are right now, but in 1999, 43% of PC gamers were women. 53% of those gamers play online. Only 43% of male gamers play online, which should make the ratio of males to females online almost 1:1. Source

As long as the government is not setting the rules for who and at what age people can buy games, then the ESRB (a self-governing industry regulatory body) is continuing to do its job; namely, that of keeping the government out of the business of legislating which games be sold to certain groups.

You might not believe me, but the ESRB is the best compromise between total censorship (ala SNES Mortal Kombat), and total outrage by the public enough to try and get things legislated (ala the outcry on Mortal Kombat 2 not being censored):
"The gaming industry set about creating a rating system for games in the early 1990's due to threatened federal intervention."

It's interesting to note that Sega started rating all games produced for the Genesis around the time of Mortal Kombat 1, rather than censor it like Nintendo did. Even so, there was enough outcry that everyone in the industry had to work together and forge a larger ratings board (the ESRB) to stop federal regulations from stepping in.

There is hope and more hope...

After playing Chris Avellone's Planescape:Torment, the idea of a girl with a tail as well as a succubus like Fall-from-Grace kind of intrigued me, but it seems unethical to force someone into being a chimera or new species.

A black panther + Slavic looking girl may seem like an interesting combination in fiction, but in the real world she would probably have a horrible life. Does a couple that really likes felines, have the right to produce a girl with just a hint of feline genetics?

Perhaps, in the future, we will be able to "steal" some genetics from the other species in order to improve our abilities without altering our appearance. I don't think this is likely to happen in any of our lifetimes though.

I've got a website for you to visit, carambola.

http://www.womengamers.com

There are a good deal of games out there that don't center on the main character being some sort of object (female ones I'm speaking of here.) Such as The Longest Journey, Septerra Core, Zanzaria: Beyond the Hidden Portal.

I myself tend to gravitate towards these sorts of games so I'm more keenly aware of it. Of course, the fact that I virtually live on the Women Gamers 'zine could change my bias, but they are out there.

I'm afraid that I'm at a loss to reply on the front of "male characters as objects" commentary, but then again, I guess that I haven't trained myself to look for it.

"But A+B+C = the universal set"

Wrong.

How about:
D. Someone who has sexual characteristics that are within the realm of normality/possibility, so that the first thing you notice about the character is not her sexuality, but her personality.

Don't believe it's possible? Want some examples?
Here's just a few; for more, see WomenGamer's Digital Women:
April Ryan, "The Longest Journey"
Oni, "Oni"
Maya, "Septerra Core"
Yuna, "Final Fantasy X"
Rinoa, "Final Fantasy VIII" (many other FF characters, though not all IMHO . . . )
Imoen, "Baldur's Gate" (and most other BG chars)
Minoko, "Project Eden"
Jo, "Ehrgeiz"
Sharline, "Ever Grace"
Mint, "Threads of Fate"
Rosella, "King's Quest IV" (and VII)
Claire, "Resident Evil"

I could go on and on. Luckily, female characters appear to be improving in many respects, and are most of the time regular characters instead of just eye candy. "Women will complain no matter what" is not a valid excuse for creating female characters that are sexually exaggerated.

Actually, there are several Nancy Drew games. I've never played them, though, so I couldn't tell you how cool they were. A ND/HB crossover would be very cool (or, at least, it would have 10 years ago when I was into that sort of thing).

Anyway, if you want to learn more about women gamers, or meet some, or whatever, visit WomenGamers.com - a good gaming news site, at least for those who want to discuss games intelligently and in a gender-aware way.

-A Woman Gamer, aka

But seriously, if they started making these games more girl-friendly, would guys want to play it?

I'm a woman, and a game developer, and I can assure you that a lot of us already are playing. if you want to find out more, go here

and as for girl-friendly, this does not mean that everything has to be pink, and you have this one button labelled Gossip. however, with todays computers, there are other kinds of games possible, except the kill-lots-of-mean-monsters-with-big-guns-kind.

though even in that group, there are some games worth playing. my latest project was Battlefield 1942, and it at least has a solid background story. you get some reason better than "blood is fun" for progressing in the game.

I like solving puzzles, having a character I can identify with, using my reflexes, having a goal, etc. I don't mind shooting a monster every now and then, but then there should be some reason for it.

I absolutely adore Homeworld, since it's deep, has a very good story, nice controls, beautiful graphics, and has a very clearly defined goal to work towards.

other games I enjoy include Baldur's Gate, Star Wars Racer, Wheel of Time, Quake III Arena and various NES games.

Brilliant double-D size breasts must not be that much of a turn on for the women eh?

Seriously though, this has to be one of the more gender biased games out there. Angelina Jolie had to wear a heavily padded bra to get even close to the required size demanded by teen males with raging hormones. Even then she was still one size too small .

There is a lot of information that indicates the opposite to the idea that girls do not play as much as boys, if you are willing to go look for it. This article has some interesting points.
Maybe if they wanted to appeal more to the female audience, they could remove some of the bias, and hey, it may not be dismissed outright by the female community as soft-porn for the male teen masses.

Read the interview on WomenGamers.com, this is question 15.

The recent interview on WomenGamers.com includes the anwser to the target audience question. (Question 15.)

From Indrema's FAQ:

Q: Will the IES support cable and DSL modem Internet connections?
A: Yes, connectivity to cable modem and DSL modem is available via the 10/100Mbps Ethernet port.

WomenGamers (pfft ;) has an interview with the same guy along similiar lines. (link above)

Well. You don't how to spell "misogynistic"

That's true. I must have been thinking of "dyspepsia".

and I'm confused why you are using this term in this context, considering the word means "having or showing a hatred and distrust of women"...

Then you should check out their website. It should clear things up for you.

(although it baffled me why such a woman would hold up a rather sexist image as her best-of-possible self).

Women programmers can fall prey to stereotypes just as much as men. And this woman wanted the character to be everything she wasn't. Furthermore, if I were to program something to hurt men, I'd probably make her look like something that would stun them into the drool zone long enough to pull out a gun, just like she did.

This discussion in particular is broadened at womengamers.com, for anyone who is interested.

-- Kimberly "I like breasts too, but they're a pain in combat!" Chapman

(although it baffled me why such a woman would hold up a rather sexist image as her best-of-possible self).

Women programmers can fall prey to stereotypes just as much as men. And this woman wanted the character to be everything she wasn't. Furthermore, if I were to program something to hurt men, I'd probably make her look like something that would stun them into the drool zone long enough to pull out a gun, just like she did.

This discussion in particular is broadened at womengamers.com, for anyone who is interested.

-- Kimberly "I like breasts too, but they're a pain in combat!" Chapman

I, for one, am really glad that this article made /. This is the second WomenGamers.Com article that I have seen posted on SlashDot and I must say that I have learned a great deal from BOTH of them... and so has my wife.. and my daughters (they both hog the computer playing Asheron's Call at night so I can't even log on to /. till I get to work the next day). These women are obviously trying to make a difference in an industry that has 1) COMPLETELY ignored them as a viable market 2)in most cases portrayed them in a degrading manner ( Read Magazine Ads: Failing the Female Market posted here a few weeks ago.) I think that this new article shows some insight as to what kind of experiences *men* are having playing female characters. Are they too getting harassed when playing? What kind of issues do they have to deal with that they wouldn't notice playing a male character? I can't tell you how ticked off I get when I catch some prick harassing my girls cause they play games online and happen to be good players.

Another great article on womengamers.com entitled "Searching for the Techie Woman" has a list of resources for getting women interested in Computer Gaming, and Computer Science as a whole. Here are some of the better ones:

http://math.rice.edu/~lanius/club/girls. html (has a whole lot more links, too)
www.girlgeeks.com
http://www.mystery.com/WAM/index.html

Another great article on womengamers.com entitled "Searching for the Techie Woman" has a list of resources for getting women interested in Computer Gaming, and Computer Science as a whole. Here are some of the better ones:

http://math.rice.edu/~lanius/club/girls. html (has a whole lot more links, too)
www.girlgeeks.com
http://www.mystery.com/WAM/index.html

It isn't human nature because besides a survival instinct there isn't much that is exclusively human nature. Most of the things we assume are human nature are actually the results of generations of cultural programming and nothing else. Currently American society (the media, high school, teenage culture) is intensely anti-intellectual and acts like female intellectual pursuits do not exist. When females have no prominent geek role models, are actively discouraged from being geeky, and are taught to value looks over brains, it is not a surprise that there are few geek grrls out there. My only gripe is that this should not be blamed on something as nebulous as human nature (which is a lie, travel to other countries and you'll rethink several of the concepts you assumed were human nature as American/western nature) but instead the real culprits, the media and society in general.
Blaming human nature keeps us from aknowledging the truth and thus stops us from initiating changes to rectify this imbalance. This will be extremely difficult because it will not only require changes in the current educational system but also changes in the way women are viewed by society in general.

PS: I'm a guy and your post struck me as ignorant and sexist...get a girlfriend or some female friends and gain some perspective.
PPS: Read this article on the women gamers site on why techie women think there are less women in technology than males.
PPPS: I'm listening to old NWA mp3s and they were the bomb...I'm about to go get two of their CDs from CDNow (still boycotting Amazon and they are $1 cheaper) :)

) I think this is nothing but an attack from an uber-nich-feminazi organization against a group that has no reason to market to them


sorry. Read, for instance, their TR4 review. If they had the agenda you ascribe they would just flamed it and not actually reviewed the game. they seem to understand that it's fiction and that all game characters are characitures.

garyr

Right on! Kudos to Hemos for mentioning the site, and AC, you're exactly on the money.

Emil: Until you really look at it, you don't realize how the game market is slanted towards the 12-24 year old male. Most games are focused to their interests and taste.. because they appear to be the only market. This is marketing exec think, but it creates a nasty catch-22: the games are catered to males in a particular age bracket, and *surprise*, they sell well to that group and not so hot to the rest of the consumer base. So, the suits say "Girls don't play games, here are the sales to prove it" and shake their heads as they authorize Tomb Raider 38DD.

What I think WomenGamers.com is going to be is an example to those decision makers that female gamers do exist - so the next time someone tries to sell a game that isn't the standard teenage boy fare. They know the male gamers are out there, but need to be shown that the female ones are.

IMHO, more girls would play games if there were more games that interested them. I'm not talking about Cosmo makeup software, but a little bit of consideration would make things go a long way: female characters that are more than decoration, more realistic body depictions (how would you like to play a game in which every male character had a 14 inch penis?), hell.. maybe some beefcake to go along with the bimbettes would improve things.

As for other sexual preferences being welcome in the regular gaming scene, I say bullshit - many online gamers, protected by their anonymity, don't hesitate to harass and insult gays or other groups in the gaming minority. It's acceptable behavior on the Quake servers to say "Man, that was gay!" or "You cock-sucking camper!" - not a friendly environment to anyone but the straight teenage male, IMHO.

A lot of gaming is still the clubhouse with a "Girls/Fags/Dykes Keep Out" sign on the door. That's fine and dandy - it's their money/server/bandwidth - but whining about the outcasts setting up their own club is uncalled for.

[No connection to the web site, just found it. Blah, blah, blah. Don't get insulted if you're the exception to the above stereotypes, I'm talking about the majorty.]