Slashdot Mirror

Miguel de Icaza writes "We have just released the new version of Mono the new version includes a working version of ASP.NET. The release includes a sample web server that "hosts" the ASP.NET runtime (it can be hosted anywhere, for instance in Apache, with mod_haydn). The web features of ASP.NET would not be very useful without the support of a backing database. The new version of Mono includes database providers for Oracle, MS SQL, Sybase, ODBC, OleDB, Gnome Data Access, SqLite, MySQL and of course, Postgres. The C# compiler is now 37% faster due to some nice optimizations on the JIT engine and in our class libraries. You can use it to develop GUI applications using Gtk#. Screenshots for mPhoto and the GUI debugger (which can debug both JITed apps and native applications). "

Miguel de Icaza writes "We have just released the new version of Mono the new version includes a working version of ASP.NET. The release includes a sample web server that "hosts" the ASP.NET runtime (it can be hosted anywhere, for instance in Apache, with mod_haydn). The web features of ASP.NET would not be very useful without the support of a backing database. The new version of Mono includes database providers for Oracle, MS SQL, Sybase, ODBC, OleDB, Gnome Data Access, SqLite, MySQL and of course, Postgres. The C# compiler is now 37% faster due to some nice optimizations on the JIT engine and in our class libraries. You can use it to develop GUI applications using Gtk#. Screenshots for mPhoto and the GUI debugger (which can debug both JITed apps and native applications). "

Miguel de Icaza writes "We have just released the new version of Mono the new version includes a working version of ASP.NET. The release includes a sample web server that "hosts" the ASP.NET runtime (it can be hosted anywhere, for instance in Apache, with mod_haydn). The web features of ASP.NET would not be very useful without the support of a backing database. The new version of Mono includes database providers for Oracle, MS SQL, Sybase, ODBC, OleDB, Gnome Data Access, SqLite, MySQL and of course, Postgres. The C# compiler is now 37% faster due to some nice optimizations on the JIT engine and in our class libraries. You can use it to develop GUI applications using Gtk#. Screenshots for mPhoto and the GUI debugger (which can debug both JITed apps and native applications). "

dalutong writes "Ximian has recently released Evolution v1.2 to the masses. New features include (among other ones that don't affect me as much) optional Emacs and XEmacs bindings in the email composer and much faster mailbox indexing (and thus loading.) It's nice to know evolution hasn't stopped."

krog asks: "I've recently signed a contract with a local middle school to replace their aged Apple /// cluster with a roomful of IBM Aptivas running Linux 7.3. Now surely I will be installing such ease-of-use tools as KDE3, Gnome, and screen, but I am looking for suggestions of other software to install. Anyone know of any good text editors/BASIC interpreters/shells/etc suitable for eight-year-old children?"

AxelTorvalds writes "The Mozilla 1.1 RPMs in Mandrake 9.0 contain the enigmail plugin. It seemlessly encrypts, signs, decrypts and authenticate email with GPG or PGP in the Mozilla Mail client. This is the first major distributor I know of to support enigmail. With this and Evolution and Kmail both supporting GPG and PGP are we at the dawn of that golden age when encrypted email will be commonplace?" Update: 09/15 17:26 GMT by T : Borked link fixed.

rainmanjag writes "GNOMEdesktop.org noted a new page on Ximian's site announcing the testing release of Red Carpet Daemon which would allow administrators to do automatic software updates on workstations within the enterprise. You can also get a command line copy of Red Carpet." Hopefully this works out better than the time I cronned apt-get upgrade under Debian's unstable tree. Whoops.

all-of-the-dot writes "Would you use an open-source implementation of the .NET Framework? Ximian's Mono project enables you to build .NET apps that run on Linux and Unix as well as Windows. Check out the story from .NET Magazine's interview with Miguel de Icaza, Ximian cofounder and CTO" Added to which, AirLace writes "The Mono project has just achieved full self-hosting on Linux. While the C# compiler, itself written in C#, has been able to compile itself since March, Mono can now compile its own complete set of class libraries too. This announcement closely follows the release of the Phonic media player, the first .NET application for the GNOME desktop."

all-of-the-dot writes "Would you use an open-source implementation of the .NET Framework? Ximian's Mono project enables you to build .NET apps that run on Linux and Unix as well as Windows. Check out the story from .NET Magazine's interview with Miguel de Icaza, Ximian cofounder and CTO" Added to which, AirLace writes "The Mono project has just achieved full self-hosting on Linux. While the C# compiler, itself written in C#, has been able to compile itself since March, Mono can now compile its own complete set of class libraries too. This announcement closely follows the release of the Phonic media player, the first .NET application for the GNOME desktop."

An Anonymous Crawdad asks: "My workplace is a mixture of Windows and Linux users, but we use Exchange as our email server for the groupware features. For the Linux users this makes it necessary to have a second Windows box just for email. I'm curious as to how well the Ximian's Evolution and Connector works with the Exchange server since it has been out for a little while and reviews on the net are a little lacking. I don't think there is a "try before you buy" option. My general belief is that 1.0 releases are never worth buying, but how much hope should I have for the future?"

rainmanjag writes "A Ximian press release is reporting that Ximian will be bundling StarOffice 6.0 for Linux with the packaged version of Ximian Desktop Professional, Red Carpet Express, and Red Carpet CorporateConnect." This means that both Ximian and Mandrakesoft are offering comprehensive software bundles which happen to include StarOffice 6.0, a package which would otherwise cost more by itself than either of the bundles.

babbage writes "There has been some talk recently on various mailing lists about getting a Mac OS X version of Ximian Connector extension to Evolution, which allows Evolution to interact with Microsoft Exchange 2000 servers much as Microsoft Outlook can. It is already possible to build and run Gnome and Evolution on Mac OS X, thanks largely to projects such as Fink. Ximian is aware of this interest, and has indicated that if enough users expressed a serious interest in buying the product -- the target number was 500 paying users -- they would be willing to produce a Mac OS X port of Connector. To that end, I've set up an petition to help gauge user interest."

babbage writes "There has been some talk recently on various mailing lists about getting a Mac OS X version of Ximian Connector extension to Evolution, which allows Evolution to interact with Microsoft Exchange 2000 servers much as Microsoft Outlook can. It is already possible to build and run Gnome and Evolution on Mac OS X, thanks largely to projects such as Fink. Ximian is aware of this interest, and has indicated that if enough users expressed a serious interest in buying the product -- the target number was 500 paying users -- they would be willing to produce a Mac OS X port of Connector. To that end, I've set up an petition to help gauge user interest."

Nat Friedman often seems to live in the shadow of his famous coworker, Miguel de Icaza, but today it's his turn to shine. You asked Nat questions last week. This week he answers, in detail, with lots of links, touching on subjects ranging from Gnome's future directions to how Microsoft is dealing with Linux as a competitor to Windows. 1) Exchange Like Product
by Kaypro

Currently the Exchange Connector seems to integrate quite well, are there any plans to create a standalone server with similar capabilities to Exchange Server?

Nat:

There are no plans today, but it's a really appealing idea.

Ximian's goal is to enable corporations to deploy and use open source-based desktops. One of the major barriers to this happening today is interoperability with the rest of the corporate computing environment. In the world we all inhabit, that means interoperability with Microsoft products.

When we were doing some product planning and market research early last year we found all these cases in big companies where people had to have two computers on their desk: a Unix machine for their real work -- development, CAD/CAM, 3d rendering, etc -- and a Windows machine so that they could speak all the protocols and file formats that the rest of the office speaks. And we were like: this just ain't right.

In many of these cases, when we asked people, they said that what was keeping that Windows machine on their desk was not, as we expected them to say in all cases, Word or Excel or Powerpoint, but it was actually in many cases Outlook. What happens is that the IT department will proclaim from on high that Exchange is the corporate scheduling standard, and if you ever want to coordinate a meeting or to schedule time in a room or with a projector or any other resource, you have to use Exchange, or you're simply out of the loop.

So this was a situation where providing this functionality under Linux eliminated the need for that Windows machine. This is a clear financial win for the customer and a clear win for the open source desktop. Basically, the Connector was a really obvious product to build.

Will we ever build a collaboration server of our own? It is something we've had some requests for before, and of course we're always listening to our customers and users, but we have no plans to build one today. Tell you what, if you would be interested in paying for such a thing, send email to sales@ximian.com and let us know. :-)

2) Microsoft and Mono?
by zoward

Have you gotten a sense of how Microsoft views the existence of an open source alternative to .NET? Do you think that, over the long term, Microsoft will grow to love, ignore or loathe (and perhaps seek to undermine) Mono?

Nat:

Open source software is a threat to Microsoft's business model, and it is a competitor which they cannot attack with their traditional maneuvers. At the same time, the events of the past seven years, especially the emergence of the web, Linux, Java and XML, have shown Microsoft the marketplace power of open standards. For these reasons, Microsoft's posture toward Mono and similar projects can be hard to gauge.

But the fact is, Linux and other open source efforts are a source of competition for Microsoft, and that is why they are investing 25 million dollars with Unisys to discredit Unix: they are once again facing competition, but this time there is a united front of users and companies around the globe that opposes them. Open source has given the world a common ground.

At the O'Reilly Developer Conference last year on a panel with Michael Tiemann, Tim O'Reilly, and others, Craig Mundie, Microsoft's CTO of Advanced Strategies and Policy, said (I am paraphrasing): "The thing Microsoft does not like about the GPL is that it creates a closed community." Yes, he actually said this, and while the entire audience sat stunned and struggling for oxygen, I remember Tim O'Reilly did not miss a beat, responding with "But so does Microsoft!"

Mono is an open source implementation of the C#, CLR and CLI cross-platform development framework that have been submitted to ECMA for standardization. We are implementing this framework because we believe it is important technology, and that the world should have a free, standards-compliant version of it.

Microsoft wants the ".NET platform" to be adopted, which is why they submitted it to ECMA. Whether or not Microsoft will change their minds, retract their submission, and decide that they do not like Mono is not something I can predict, but if they do, we are ready to adapt to the change and ensure that this technology is available to the world.

3) Core Gnome technologies
by wrinkledshirt

Despite its relatively short lifetime, Gnome's been really great about embracing all sorts of different technologies -- gtk, ORBit, bonobo and now Mono. However, it's sometimes difficult trying to figure out how this all ties together (if it's supposed to at all). Generally speaking, if someone's going to want to develop for Gnome in the future, how should they prepare themselves? What should they want to learn?

Nat:

Actually, the goal of the infrastructural work in GNOME is to abstract all of the underlying technologies away from you so that you can focus on writing your application. We want you to feel the joy of being able to sit down and easily build something, not to hand you a whole bunch of new stuff to learn.

Nowadays GNOME application development can be done rapidly and easily using Python or Perl and the Glade GUI construction tool.

For a lot of people, these languages and tools are the best way to build an application. The GtkPerl site has an example of a GNOME panel applet written in just 60 lines of Perl (and I'm sure it could be done in less). Not everyone knows that Anaconda, the Red Hat Linux installer is actually written using PyGtk.

Using Glade to create your user interfaces not only frees you from the arduous task of manually doing all of the widget creation and packing, it also makes your application more flexible because the GUI layout is loaded at run-time from an XML file. For the GNOME project this has been really helpful, since it means that a lot of UI design and prototyping work can be done without the need to even touch the code.

If you want to learn more, developer.gnome.org has a pretty good overview of the GNOME architecture.

All of the GNOME technologies that you've heard about work under the hood to provide consistency, configurability, and scripting features that you, as a programmer, only come into contact with if you need them. The goal, to steal directly from Larry Wall, is to make the easy things easy and the hard things possible.

For example, you might (or might not) have heard of Atk, Gail and at-spi. These are accessibility ("a11y") technologies that are in GNOME 2 to make it possible for applications to be used by people with various kinds of impairments. But you do not need to be exposed to any of the details of CORBA in order to use them, and in fact, some of the a11y features come for free just from building your application using GNOME 2.

By the way, I happen to think that accessibility is a killer feature in GNOME 2. At GUAD3C, Marc Mulcahy gave a great demo of how a sightless person can navigate the desktop using a screen reader. And we have been working on a set of accessible icons for GNOME 2 as well. There are cool side effects too: Because GNOME's accessibility infrastructure is done programmatically and at the widget level, you can actually attach to a remote running application and introspect and act on its widget tree. This may make it possible for us to eventually have a very high-quality automated UI testing tool.

Check out the GNOME Accessibility Project web page for more information.

As for Mono, it is still a technology under development, and the GNOME project has not made a decision to adopt it in any way yet. Work on C# bindings for Gtk is progressing, however, so you will be able to write Gtk and, eventually, GNOME applications in C#.

4) Usability research
by nakhla

One of the big problems facing GNOME and other open-source software is that of ease-of-use. Microsoft and Apple spend millions of dollars when developing new operating systems or UIs in order to ensure that their product is easy to use for the non-geek end user. What kind of useability studies has Ximian conducted? What is Ximian doing to correct any problems that the research has brought to light?

Nat:

Ximian and the GNOME project have learned from standard, existing industry practices for building usable software. In short this means designing for usability, performing formal usability testing on real users, and treating usability problems as first-class bugs.

The GNOME Usability Project is a nice central resource for a lot of the usability work that has gone into GNOME. Recently the project has been making a lot of progress on the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines, a set of UI rules that will help GNOME achieve much better consistency in its user interfaces. The results of the comprehensive GNOME desktop usability study that Sun performed last year are worth a read, too, even if we've already overcome a lot of that stuff in GNOME 2.

In the course of the design of Evolution 1.0 and 1.2 (due out this summer), Anna Dirks, our UI designer, performed many dozens of usability tests on various parts of Evolution, using a wide variety of people with varying degrees and types of experience using computers. Anna delivered a nice talk on the usability testing process at the GUADEC Conference

An application's usability is directly related to the ease with which a user can predict its behavior when he gives it input. This is why usability testing is a productive activity. In its basic form, it goes like this:

1. Create a prototype of the interface you are designing. In some cases prototypes are created using "scripting" languages or "RAD" tools, and sometimes they are just printed onto "paper." This last type is called a "paper prototype," the name deriving from the "paper" on which it is printed, and the fact that it is a prototype.

2. Coerce an appropriately representative set of individuals into participating in the usability test. The use of lethal force may be necessary.

3. Ask the user to perform a certain task, using the prototype.

4. Observe and record the steps the user takes, with particular attention to his mistakes.

5. Rinse, lather, repeat.

The fundamental premise of the usability test is that the user has certain expectations of how a given interface will behave, and the thing that a designer must do is to identify the places where his interface does not conform to those expectations, and to fix them.

At Ximian we've gotten subjects for our usability tests from a variety of places; there's a movie theater downstairs from our office and sometimes we'll hang out there and offer people free movie passes to participate in usability tests. So we get a pretty broad audience.

All usability issues that arise during a usability test are filed as bugs in bugzilla alongside other issues, and of course the subject's comments inform the revised design of the interface in question.

For GNOME 2, we decided to revamp all of the GNOME stock icons to improve their consistency, usability and to brighten up the style a bit. Ximian has contributed all of these new icons back to GNOME; you can check them out on developer.ximian.com.

Havoc recently wrote a nice piece which covers UI design in free software, and in GNOME in particular.

5) Conflict of Philosophies
by polyphemus-blinder

I would like to know:

What is your take on the apparent paradox resulting from:

1. the goal of uniformity on the Linux desktop, and

2. the many, many, groups who have this as their own special goal?

Mandrake and RedHat work toward this on the OS level, and Gnome and KDE battle it out on the desktop integration level, and many others espouse some sort of a "grand unification theory" of Linux.

Do you subscribe to the theory that less is more, or that multiple groups with a common goal will result in the goal's earlier acheivement?

Nat:

In any large-scale human endeavor, consistency is a very difficult goal. I once heard a senior Microsoft project manager express the goal of consistency in software thusly: "A program should look as if it were written by one person." This is a thing that everyone struggles with.

To give you a short summary of my answer:

(1) Consistency is hard.

(2) Decentralization and parallel development are inherent to open source software.

(3) Open standards and making an effort to work together are key. Let's try to do more of that.

Consistency in software applications means fewer surprises, a gentler learning curve, and being able to get your work done without tripping over an application's special quirks along the way. This is especially true of the interfaces that the application exposes.

For human interfaces, consistency means that the elements of the application do what the user expects them to do, and that the interface, consequently, does not get in the user's way. This means that a dialog's Close button is always in the same place, the menubar always appears at the top of the window, and Ctrl-Q always quits. Usability flows predictability which flows from consistency.

For programming interfaces, or APIs, consistency means that the methods you invoke have predictable characteristics: similar naming, the same memory management semantics, the same return values in an error condition. This means cleaner code, less time spent hunting through documentation, and fewer bugs.

So we can agree that consistency is a good thing. Two things are needed to achieve it: a standard, and a way to enforce that standard.

In more centralized environments, such as companies, these things are easier to do. It is naive to think that any company, even Microsoft is fully centrally controlled, but it is certainly much easier to enforce a single standard on people when you are paying them, and when you have editorial control over the final product.

But even with a single, documented standard and even if you are paying people's salaries, consistency does not come easily, even in the most centralized environments. At one point Microsoft had at least nine separate internal implementations of SOAP, and only recently have these all been consolidated...into four.

So how on earth do we achieve consistency in a decentralized environment? Given that starting your very own open source "project" is a matter of a few clicks on sourceforge, how do we "prevent" people from creating applications that do not adhere to some common set of ideas as to how they should behave? Given that there is no central control of what happens in the open source desktop world, how can we even create a standard that we all agree on?

I remember when Mac OS X first came out, people asked a lot of similar questions: How can we ever create an interface that is as consistent as this in our weirdo free code, free love, gift economy, bazaar-inspired noospheric environment?

This question can be considered at different scales: how can consistency be achieved within a single project, and how can it be achieved in the open source world in general.

And this issue of decentralized development comes up in other guises as well. In addition to bemoaning a lack of consistency, people talk about duplication of effort and fragmentation. They say things like: "If only we could focus all of the energy that has gone into producing all of the IRC clients in the world on building just one IRC client, think how awesome it could be!" People really say this sort of thing. I have heard them.

And, of course, there are those in the press and on the mailing lists who see this very same pattern in what they call the "GNOME vs KDE wars" or "the desktop wars." This is the "How many Linux distributions can you count?" conundrum.

Many people who are much smarter and better looking than I have responded to this question at various times.

Linus has said that he believes that in the Linux development community today, there is a "psychological barrier to fragmentation," and that this barrier is the learned result of the Unix wars of the 1980s.

Alan Cox has said that implementation fragmentation is not important, as long as care is taken not to break interface compatibility. The important thing, quoth Alan, is the existence and adherence to open standards. And Eric Raymond has pontificated at length about how it is the nature of the open source community, when confronted with a problem to solve, to try "all solutions at the same time." That is, I think Eric would tell you, the nature of the open source world, and, in many ways, its greatest strength. And of course, Eric is right. Seriously, I love that guy.

If on an iron-gray fall day you have looked up and seen a dark spot moving against the sky and changing shape and size but still moving smoothly in one direction and then it came closer and when you looked you could see the individual birds flapping their wings and shifting forward and back in the formation and alternately turning against and away from each other but still somehow moving all together as one mass, I think you have seen something that resembles the greater open source development community, if there can be said to be such a thing.

The thing that the birds are doing is called "flocking," and today the problem of flocking is still an interesting issue in algorithmic circles. The basic scenario is that, with each element in the flock making its own individual movement decisions based on its own individual and unique sensory input of what is happening immediately around it, the flock must somehow move along a single path, as a whole. The analogy of the Boids flocking algorithm actually runs deeper than you might expect; check it out sometime.

What is important in open source software is doing the actual human work of getting people together and creating the open standards that will allow us to function as a group, and to move in the same direction. And the way to do that is through open, shared standards.

I'm not talking about a kind of abstract standards process where an aesthete group of monks argues for centuries in the thin mountain air about file system standards before descending with etched tablets, but a process where implementors agree on good-enough standards of existing practices in the places that matter, today. Standardization is a way for us to align our directions, maintain implementation distance, and follow a common flight path, not an end in and of itself.

The thing to recognize is that the problem of creating a consistent desktop experience and the fact that our approach is a multi-pronged, decentralized, evolutionary one do not have to be at odds with each other. The key to consistency is to work toward it.

6) As a business
by Fizzlewhiff

Is it frustrating to see potential revenue lost due to offering the same products for free? Do you ever run the numbers to see what your income potential might be if you stopped giving away the same software you sell or do you believe that the Linux community, as a whole, cannot and will not support companies who only sell Linux software?

Nat:

If in the last two years we hadn't put out approaching 2 million lines of GPL'd and LGPL'd code, we would not have nearly the success that we have today.

If you're going to run those kinds of numbers, you should also calculate:

1. How much extra would you have to spend on development in order to compensate for the fact that you will no longer have the help of a large community of testers, translators and hackers?

2. How much do you have to spend on marketing to even reach the same level of name recognition you can achieve by being a responsible, active open source software development company? Would you have the same amount of credibility?

During the several months that preceded Evolution 1.0, we averaged around 10,000 daily downloads of the Evolution snapshots, and many of the downloaders were actively reporting and fixing the bugs that they found. How much would it have cost us to manually test Evolution against the wide variety of IMAP, LDAP and Palm devices that the Evolution codebase was exposed to by this army of users?

This kind of thinking may sound cold and not particularly ideological, but if you're going to perform one kind of calculation, you gotta do them all. I have actually heard of open source companies sitting down and working out the second, marketing calculation, and including it in their business plans as a rationale for writing free code.

7) Co-existance of Red-Carpet and up2date/RHN
by yusufg

Hi, Red-Carpet seems to offer functionality similar to up2date/redhat network. However, there seems to be a very substantial lag between packages made available via Ximian's redhat channel and up2date.

An example being (till now, RPM 4.0.4) is not available via the Redhat 7.2 channel. Is Ximian going to ever make a policy statement as to what is the maximum duration their userbase will be diverged from receiving the latest updates of their respective distributions.

If there are specific packages which are likely not to be made available via red-carpet, can their be an official statement on this so that users are aware of the pros/cons of using multiple update mechanisms?

Nat:

Our policy is that all distribution and third-party updates are made available through Red Carpet as soon as they can reasonably be pushed without breaking other software for the user.

For example, with security updates, these are always made available as soon possible, often within just a few hours, always within a day.

With something like the RPM 4.0.4 update, however, sometimes we have to lag behind the upstream provider, in order to ensure compatibility. This does not mean that we hate Red Hat or that we do not care about users, or that we are lazy.

In the particular case of RPM, new releases of RPM often break binary or database compatibility with old versions (this was true with 4.0.4), and so we are cautious about making these available to users until we have first ensured that Red Carpet will continue to work on your system. I am not trying to pass the buck to Red Hat here. They are great people. Our userbase, in running Red Carpet, just happens to have a different set of needs than Red Hat's, and this is what, in the case of RPM 4.0.4, created the delay you noticed.

To answer your second question, as long as the packages that are shipped by the upstream providers are open source, and as long as we can legally redistribute them, we will make them available via Red Carpet.

8) Lack of documentation for GNOME internals
by Tet

Are there any plans to increase the amount of documentation on GNOME internals? While GNOME seems to have plenty of trivial documentation (such as the GNOME User's Guide [redhat.com], there's virtually nothing that explains what's going on underneath. Are there any plans for a "GNOME Administrator's Guide"? I'm thinking of something that documents usage of files in $HOME/.gnome, what session management is and how it works, what controls the contents of the GNOME menu, and so on. For example, when GNOME fails to correctly save session information, I'd like to be able to check the documentation to see what should be being written to .gnome/session. At the moment, I just have to guess. Some of it is reasonably obvious from context, but it's the sort of thing that really needs formally documenting.

Nat:

So, for a lot of the stuff you're talking about, the documentation is out there. If you want to learn about the session manager and how to configure it, check out the man pages for "gnome-session" "default.session" and "save-session". There's also a white paper covering a lot of the configuration files, though it is out of date. Collecting and updating all of these things into a single "GNOME System Administrator's Guide" sounds like a great idea for a project for someone :-).

The GNOME Documentation Project and the individual efforts of developers and users have produced a large amount of documentation to date. In addition to the GNOME User's Guide that you mention, there is the user's manual work that Sun has been doing. There is also a lot of developer documentation on developer.gnome.org, including some useful tutorials and white papers.

With all of the large vendors that are shipping GNOME on their workstations, I think it's a safe bet that the components of an administrator's guide will come together in the near future. I know that, inside Ximian, we have recently written for a customer some documentation specifically focused on issues that would be interesting to system administrators, and naturally we will be working to release this to the community at some point soon.

Of course, if you or anyone else out there wants to join up with the GNOME Docs team and start assembling such a guide, you would be welcomed with open arms :-). If you don't have time to do that, you can contribute by filing bugs in bugzilla.gnome.org whenever you find problems or missing pieces and by contributing fixes to the individual projects. Check out the gnome-doc-list mailing list for more information on how you can help.

9) Why subscribe?
by JThaddeus

I was considering subscribing in order to improve the performance of downloads (which have gone to a snail's pace since the subscription program began) but two out of three of my last update attempts have ended in file not found errors. This type of error doesn't give me confidence in how well RedCarpet setups are tested. So why shouldn't I just forget about subscriptions and go with KDE?

Nat:

Without more information, I can't say exactly what the problem is that you were experiencing. That type of issue can sometimes happen if you're updating from one of our mirrors that is in the process of syncing from our master site.

I can tell you that we do directed testing on all updates that are pushed to Red Carpet, on every single supported platform, before an update is released. Additionally, we pay close attention to the bug reports that our users file in our bug tracking system, and make an effort to address all of those as quickly as possible.

Just last week we released a new channel in Red Carpet called "Untested," which contains the pre-QA versions of all of our Ximian GNOME updates before they hit the main channel. Similar to the Mandrake Cooker or Debian unstable, this is a way for the update junkies of the world to get an early glimpse at new packages and versions before they hit the official channel. And of course, this is a way for us to get broader user testing and resolve problems earlier.

Also, by the way, the bandwidth we've allocated to our free public Red Carpet servers has been steadily increasing since the launch of the subscription program. If the servers have gotten slower, it's because the user demand keeps increasing.

But whatever your experiences with Red Carpet, they should not be brought to bear on your choice of desktop. Red Carpet is a software management service that is independent of your choice of desktop or web browser or editor or whatever. And because the Red Carpet client is statically linked, you don't even have to have GNOME installed to use it. In fact, about 20% of Red Carpet usage is by people who want to get updates to the packages provided by their distribution, not Ximian GNOME.

10) External Compatibility
by dspeyer

What plans do you have to improve compatibility with the non-GNOME world?

For example, do you think it's practical to implement Xaw as a front-end to GTK? That would get OpenOffice integration real fast, among others. What about a unified theme format with KDE? Or a common protocol for copy/paste?

It seems like this sort of stuff would be really helpful -- what's actually in the works?

Nat:

Compatibility actually has less to do with an application's choice of drawing toolkit than you might think. Of course, there's nothing to prevent you from running a non-GTK application in GNOME, and it's not necessarily the case that the user experience is hugely degraded if you do. I know of a lot of KDE users who started using Evolution in the last couple of months, because the functionality is so rich, which is great.

GNOME and KDE have had drag-n-drop and cut-n-paste interoperability for quite a while, and we also use the same .desktop file format to store launchers and menu items. You can track a lot of this stuff at freedesktop.org.

Open Office does not use Xaw. That being said, it would be great if OpenOffice used the Gtk drawing primitives so that OpenOffice would be theme-compatible with GNOME. It would not be a total integration, and the behaviour might still be different, but it would help the desktop to look more like a single unit. In fact, it would be possible to get Qt to use Gdk as well, which could make shared themes possible there too.

Another step would be to adopt a common set of icons; baby steps like this can improve visual harmony a lot, even if the "compatibility" is only at a very superficial level. These first steps could be followed by deeper integration, like a working bridge between Bonobo and Uno, the OpenOffice component system.

A unified theme format with KDE would probably be difficult, having a theme or set of core themes for GNOME and KDE which looked and felt the same on both would be a nice step toward making the desktops more compatible to the user. There have been noises made recently that this kind of thing is a possibility, and Ximian would be fully supportive of that.

Though these surface integration steps would be nice, the area where inter-project compatibility is most badly needed is configuration. If someone is running a mixture of GNOME and KDE applications, Mozilla, OpenOffice, and older Xtk-based programs, they need to be able to make configuration changes that are reflected in every application. Having to go to N different places to set your default URL handler, theme, or MIME type bindings is a real usability problem. Jim Gettys talked about this a lot at the most recent GUADEC. Keith Packard's recent fontconfig work is an excellent example of this.

Nat Friedman often seems to live in the shadow of his famous coworker, Miguel de Icaza, but today it's his turn to shine. You asked Nat questions last week. This week he answers, in detail, with lots of links, touching on subjects ranging from Gnome's future directions to how Microsoft is dealing with Linux as a competitor to Windows. 1) Exchange Like Product
by Kaypro

Currently the Exchange Connector seems to integrate quite well, are there any plans to create a standalone server with similar capabilities to Exchange Server?

Nat:

There are no plans today, but it's a really appealing idea.

Ximian's goal is to enable corporations to deploy and use open source-based desktops. One of the major barriers to this happening today is interoperability with the rest of the corporate computing environment. In the world we all inhabit, that means interoperability with Microsoft products.

When we were doing some product planning and market research early last year we found all these cases in big companies where people had to have two computers on their desk: a Unix machine for their real work -- development, CAD/CAM, 3d rendering, etc -- and a Windows machine so that they could speak all the protocols and file formats that the rest of the office speaks. And we were like: this just ain't right.

In many of these cases, when we asked people, they said that what was keeping that Windows machine on their desk was not, as we expected them to say in all cases, Word or Excel or Powerpoint, but it was actually in many cases Outlook. What happens is that the IT department will proclaim from on high that Exchange is the corporate scheduling standard, and if you ever want to coordinate a meeting or to schedule time in a room or with a projector or any other resource, you have to use Exchange, or you're simply out of the loop.

So this was a situation where providing this functionality under Linux eliminated the need for that Windows machine. This is a clear financial win for the customer and a clear win for the open source desktop. Basically, the Connector was a really obvious product to build.

Will we ever build a collaboration server of our own? It is something we've had some requests for before, and of course we're always listening to our customers and users, but we have no plans to build one today. Tell you what, if you would be interested in paying for such a thing, send email to sales@ximian.com and let us know. :-)

2) Microsoft and Mono?
by zoward

Have you gotten a sense of how Microsoft views the existence of an open source alternative to .NET? Do you think that, over the long term, Microsoft will grow to love, ignore or loathe (and perhaps seek to undermine) Mono?

Nat:

Open source software is a threat to Microsoft's business model, and it is a competitor which they cannot attack with their traditional maneuvers. At the same time, the events of the past seven years, especially the emergence of the web, Linux, Java and XML, have shown Microsoft the marketplace power of open standards. For these reasons, Microsoft's posture toward Mono and similar projects can be hard to gauge.

But the fact is, Linux and other open source efforts are a source of competition for Microsoft, and that is why they are investing 25 million dollars with Unisys to discredit Unix: they are once again facing competition, but this time there is a united front of users and companies around the globe that opposes them. Open source has given the world a common ground.

At the O'Reilly Developer Conference last year on a panel with Michael Tiemann, Tim O'Reilly, and others, Craig Mundie, Microsoft's CTO of Advanced Strategies and Policy, said (I am paraphrasing): "The thing Microsoft does not like about the GPL is that it creates a closed community." Yes, he actually said this, and while the entire audience sat stunned and struggling for oxygen, I remember Tim O'Reilly did not miss a beat, responding with "But so does Microsoft!"

Mono is an open source implementation of the C#, CLR and CLI cross-platform development framework that have been submitted to ECMA for standardization. We are implementing this framework because we believe it is important technology, and that the world should have a free, standards-compliant version of it.

Microsoft wants the ".NET platform" to be adopted, which is why they submitted it to ECMA. Whether or not Microsoft will change their minds, retract their submission, and decide that they do not like Mono is not something I can predict, but if they do, we are ready to adapt to the change and ensure that this technology is available to the world.

3) Core Gnome technologies
by wrinkledshirt

Despite its relatively short lifetime, Gnome's been really great about embracing all sorts of different technologies -- gtk, ORBit, bonobo and now Mono. However, it's sometimes difficult trying to figure out how this all ties together (if it's supposed to at all). Generally speaking, if someone's going to want to develop for Gnome in the future, how should they prepare themselves? What should they want to learn?

Nat:

Actually, the goal of the infrastructural work in GNOME is to abstract all of the underlying technologies away from you so that you can focus on writing your application. We want you to feel the joy of being able to sit down and easily build something, not to hand you a whole bunch of new stuff to learn.

Nowadays GNOME application development can be done rapidly and easily using Python or Perl and the Glade GUI construction tool.

For a lot of people, these languages and tools are the best way to build an application. The GtkPerl site has an example of a GNOME panel applet written in just 60 lines of Perl (and I'm sure it could be done in less). Not everyone knows that Anaconda, the Red Hat Linux installer is actually written using PyGtk.

Using Glade to create your user interfaces not only frees you from the arduous task of manually doing all of the widget creation and packing, it also makes your application more flexible because the GUI layout is loaded at run-time from an XML file. For the GNOME project this has been really helpful, since it means that a lot of UI design and prototyping work can be done without the need to even touch the code.

If you want to learn more, developer.gnome.org has a pretty good overview of the GNOME architecture.

All of the GNOME technologies that you've heard about work under the hood to provide consistency, configurability, and scripting features that you, as a programmer, only come into contact with if you need them. The goal, to steal directly from Larry Wall, is to make the easy things easy and the hard things possible.

For example, you might (or might not) have heard of Atk, Gail and at-spi. These are accessibility ("a11y") technologies that are in GNOME 2 to make it possible for applications to be used by people with various kinds of impairments. But you do not need to be exposed to any of the details of CORBA in order to use them, and in fact, some of the a11y features come for free just from building your application using GNOME 2.

By the way, I happen to think that accessibility is a killer feature in GNOME 2. At GUAD3C, Marc Mulcahy gave a great demo of how a sightless person can navigate the desktop using a screen reader. And we have been working on a set of accessible icons for GNOME 2 as well. There are cool side effects too: Because GNOME's accessibility infrastructure is done programmatically and at the widget level, you can actually attach to a remote running application and introspect and act on its widget tree. This may make it possible for us to eventually have a very high-quality automated UI testing tool.

Check out the GNOME Accessibility Project web page for more information.

As for Mono, it is still a technology under development, and the GNOME project has not made a decision to adopt it in any way yet. Work on C# bindings for Gtk is progressing, however, so you will be able to write Gtk and, eventually, GNOME applications in C#.

4) Usability research
by nakhla

One of the big problems facing GNOME and other open-source software is that of ease-of-use. Microsoft and Apple spend millions of dollars when developing new operating systems or UIs in order to ensure that their product is easy to use for the non-geek end user. What kind of useability studies has Ximian conducted? What is Ximian doing to correct any problems that the research has brought to light?

Nat:

Ximian and the GNOME project have learned from standard, existing industry practices for building usable software. In short this means designing for usability, performing formal usability testing on real users, and treating usability problems as first-class bugs.

The GNOME Usability Project is a nice central resource for a lot of the usability work that has gone into GNOME. Recently the project has been making a lot of progress on the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines, a set of UI rules that will help GNOME achieve much better consistency in its user interfaces. The results of the comprehensive GNOME desktop usability study that Sun performed last year are worth a read, too, even if we've already overcome a lot of that stuff in GNOME 2.

In the course of the design of Evolution 1.0 and 1.2 (due out this summer), Anna Dirks, our UI designer, performed many dozens of usability tests on various parts of Evolution, using a wide variety of people with varying degrees and types of experience using computers. Anna delivered a nice talk on the usability testing process at the GUADEC Conference

An application's usability is directly related to the ease with which a user can predict its behavior when he gives it input. This is why usability testing is a productive activity. In its basic form, it goes like this:

1. Create a prototype of the interface you are designing. In some cases prototypes are created using "scripting" languages or "RAD" tools, and sometimes they are just printed onto "paper." This last type is called a "paper prototype," the name deriving from the "paper" on which it is printed, and the fact that it is a prototype.

2. Coerce an appropriately representative set of individuals into participating in the usability test. The use of lethal force may be necessary.

3. Ask the user to perform a certain task, using the prototype.

4. Observe and record the steps the user takes, with particular attention to his mistakes.

5. Rinse, lather, repeat.

The fundamental premise of the usability test is that the user has certain expectations of how a given interface will behave, and the thing that a designer must do is to identify the places where his interface does not conform to those expectations, and to fix them.

At Ximian we've gotten subjects for our usability tests from a variety of places; there's a movie theater downstairs from our office and sometimes we'll hang out there and offer people free movie passes to participate in usability tests. So we get a pretty broad audience.

All usability issues that arise during a usability test are filed as bugs in bugzilla alongside other issues, and of course the subject's comments inform the revised design of the interface in question.

For GNOME 2, we decided to revamp all of the GNOME stock icons to improve their consistency, usability and to brighten up the style a bit. Ximian has contributed all of these new icons back to GNOME; you can check them out on developer.ximian.com.

Havoc recently wrote a nice piece which covers UI design in free software, and in GNOME in particular.

5) Conflict of Philosophies
by polyphemus-blinder

I would like to know:

What is your take on the apparent paradox resulting from:

1. the goal of uniformity on the Linux desktop, and

2. the many, many, groups who have this as their own special goal?

Mandrake and RedHat work toward this on the OS level, and Gnome and KDE battle it out on the desktop integration level, and many others espouse some sort of a "grand unification theory" of Linux.

Do you subscribe to the theory that less is more, or that multiple groups with a common goal will result in the goal's earlier acheivement?

Nat:

In any large-scale human endeavor, consistency is a very difficult goal. I once heard a senior Microsoft project manager express the goal of consistency in software thusly: "A program should look as if it were written by one person." This is a thing that everyone struggles with.

To give you a short summary of my answer:

(1) Consistency is hard.

(2) Decentralization and parallel development are inherent to open source software.

(3) Open standards and making an effort to work together are key. Let's try to do more of that.

Consistency in software applications means fewer surprises, a gentler learning curve, and being able to get your work done without tripping over an application's special quirks along the way. This is especially true of the interfaces that the application exposes.

For human interfaces, consistency means that the elements of the application do what the user expects them to do, and that the interface, consequently, does not get in the user's way. This means that a dialog's Close button is always in the same place, the menubar always appears at the top of the window, and Ctrl-Q always quits. Usability flows predictability which flows from consistency.

For programming interfaces, or APIs, consistency means that the methods you invoke have predictable characteristics: similar naming, the same memory management semantics, the same return values in an error condition. This means cleaner code, less time spent hunting through documentation, and fewer bugs.

So we can agree that consistency is a good thing. Two things are needed to achieve it: a standard, and a way to enforce that standard.

In more centralized environments, such as companies, these things are easier to do. It is naive to think that any company, even Microsoft is fully centrally controlled, but it is certainly much easier to enforce a single standard on people when you are paying them, and when you have editorial control over the final product.

But even with a single, documented standard and even if you are paying people's salaries, consistency does not come easily, even in the most centralized environments. At one point Microsoft had at least nine separate internal implementations of SOAP, and only recently have these all been consolidated...into four.

So how on earth do we achieve consistency in a decentralized environment? Given that starting your very own open source "project" is a matter of a few clicks on sourceforge, how do we "prevent" people from creating applications that do not adhere to some common set of ideas as to how they should behave? Given that there is no central control of what happens in the open source desktop world, how can we even create a standard that we all agree on?

I remember when Mac OS X first came out, people asked a lot of similar questions: How can we ever create an interface that is as consistent as this in our weirdo free code, free love, gift economy, bazaar-inspired noospheric environment?

This question can be considered at different scales: how can consistency be achieved within a single project, and how can it be achieved in the open source world in general.

And this issue of decentralized development comes up in other guises as well. In addition to bemoaning a lack of consistency, people talk about duplication of effort and fragmentation. They say things like: "If only we could focus all of the energy that has gone into producing all of the IRC clients in the world on building just one IRC client, think how awesome it could be!" People really say this sort of thing. I have heard them.

And, of course, there are those in the press and on the mailing lists who see this very same pattern in what they call the "GNOME vs KDE wars" or "the desktop wars." This is the "How many Linux distributions can you count?" conundrum.

Many people who are much smarter and better looking than I have responded to this question at various times.

Linus has said that he believes that in the Linux development community today, there is a "psychological barrier to fragmentation," and that this barrier is the learned result of the Unix wars of the 1980s.

Alan Cox has said that implementation fragmentation is not important, as long as care is taken not to break interface compatibility. The important thing, quoth Alan, is the existence and adherence to open standards. And Eric Raymond has pontificated at length about how it is the nature of the open source community, when confronted with a problem to solve, to try "all solutions at the same time." That is, I think Eric would tell you, the nature of the open source world, and, in many ways, its greatest strength. And of course, Eric is right. Seriously, I love that guy.

If on an iron-gray fall day you have looked up and seen a dark spot moving against the sky and changing shape and size but still moving smoothly in one direction and then it came closer and when you looked you could see the individual birds flapping their wings and shifting forward and back in the formation and alternately turning against and away from each other but still somehow moving all together as one mass, I think you have seen something that resembles the greater open source development community, if there can be said to be such a thing.

The thing that the birds are doing is called "flocking," and today the problem of flocking is still an interesting issue in algorithmic circles. The basic scenario is that, with each element in the flock making its own individual movement decisions based on its own individual and unique sensory input of what is happening immediately around it, the flock must somehow move along a single path, as a whole. The analogy of the Boids flocking algorithm actually runs deeper than you might expect; check it out sometime.

What is important in open source software is doing the actual human work of getting people together and creating the open standards that will allow us to function as a group, and to move in the same direction. And the way to do that is through open, shared standards.

I'm not talking about a kind of abstract standards process where an aesthete group of monks argues for centuries in the thin mountain air about file system standards before descending with etched tablets, but a process where implementors agree on good-enough standards of existing practices in the places that matter, today. Standardization is a way for us to align our directions, maintain implementation distance, and follow a common flight path, not an end in and of itself.

The thing to recognize is that the problem of creating a consistent desktop experience and the fact that our approach is a multi-pronged, decentralized, evolutionary one do not have to be at odds with each other. The key to consistency is to work toward it.

6) As a business
by Fizzlewhiff

Is it frustrating to see potential revenue lost due to offering the same products for free? Do you ever run the numbers to see what your income potential might be if you stopped giving away the same software you sell or do you believe that the Linux community, as a whole, cannot and will not support companies who only sell Linux software?

Nat:

If in the last two years we hadn't put out approaching 2 million lines of GPL'd and LGPL'd code, we would not have nearly the success that we have today.

If you're going to run those kinds of numbers, you should also calculate:

1. How much extra would you have to spend on development in order to compensate for the fact that you will no longer have the help of a large community of testers, translators and hackers?

2. How much do you have to spend on marketing to even reach the same level of name recognition you can achieve by being a responsible, active open source software development company? Would you have the same amount of credibility?

During the several months that preceded Evolution 1.0, we averaged around 10,000 daily downloads of the Evolution snapshots, and many of the downloaders were actively reporting and fixing the bugs that they found. How much would it have cost us to manually test Evolution against the wide variety of IMAP, LDAP and Palm devices that the Evolution codebase was exposed to by this army of users?

This kind of thinking may sound cold and not particularly ideological, but if you're going to perform one kind of calculation, you gotta do them all. I have actually heard of open source companies sitting down and working out the second, marketing calculation, and including it in their business plans as a rationale for writing free code.

7) Co-existance of Red-Carpet and up2date/RHN
by yusufg

Hi, Red-Carpet seems to offer functionality similar to up2date/redhat network. However, there seems to be a very substantial lag between packages made available via Ximian's redhat channel and up2date.

An example being (till now, RPM 4.0.4) is not available via the Redhat 7.2 channel. Is Ximian going to ever make a policy statement as to what is the maximum duration their userbase will be diverged from receiving the latest updates of their respective distributions.

If there are specific packages which are likely not to be made available via red-carpet, can their be an official statement on this so that users are aware of the pros/cons of using multiple update mechanisms?

Nat:

Our policy is that all distribution and third-party updates are made available through Red Carpet as soon as they can reasonably be pushed without breaking other software for the user.

For example, with security updates, these are always made available as soon possible, often within just a few hours, always within a day.

With something like the RPM 4.0.4 update, however, sometimes we have to lag behind the upstream provider, in order to ensure compatibility. This does not mean that we hate Red Hat or that we do not care about users, or that we are lazy.

In the particular case of RPM, new releases of RPM often break binary or database compatibility with old versions (this was true with 4.0.4), and so we are cautious about making these available to users until we have first ensured that Red Carpet will continue to work on your system. I am not trying to pass the buck to Red Hat here. They are great people. Our userbase, in running Red Carpet, just happens to have a different set of needs than Red Hat's, and this is what, in the case of RPM 4.0.4, created the delay you noticed.

To answer your second question, as long as the packages that are shipped by the upstream providers are open source, and as long as we can legally redistribute them, we will make them available via Red Carpet.

8) Lack of documentation for GNOME internals
by Tet

Are there any plans to increase the amount of documentation on GNOME internals? While GNOME seems to have plenty of trivial documentation (such as the GNOME User's Guide [redhat.com], there's virtually nothing that explains what's going on underneath. Are there any plans for a "GNOME Administrator's Guide"? I'm thinking of something that documents usage of files in $HOME/.gnome, what session management is and how it works, what controls the contents of the GNOME menu, and so on. For example, when GNOME fails to correctly save session information, I'd like to be able to check the documentation to see what should be being written to .gnome/session. At the moment, I just have to guess. Some of it is reasonably obvious from context, but it's the sort of thing that really needs formally documenting.

Nat:

So, for a lot of the stuff you're talking about, the documentation is out there. If you want to learn about the session manager and how to configure it, check out the man pages for "gnome-session" "default.session" and "save-session". There's also a white paper covering a lot of the configuration files, though it is out of date. Collecting and updating all of these things into a single "GNOME System Administrator's Guide" sounds like a great idea for a project for someone :-).

The GNOME Documentation Project and the individual efforts of developers and users have produced a large amount of documentation to date. In addition to the GNOME User's Guide that you mention, there is the user's manual work that Sun has been doing. There is also a lot of developer documentation on developer.gnome.org, including some useful tutorials and white papers.

With all of the large vendors that are shipping GNOME on their workstations, I think it's a safe bet that the components of an administrator's guide will come together in the near future. I know that, inside Ximian, we have recently written for a customer some documentation specifically focused on issues that would be interesting to system administrators, and naturally we will be working to release this to the community at some point soon.

Of course, if you or anyone else out there wants to join up with the GNOME Docs team and start assembling such a guide, you would be welcomed with open arms :-). If you don't have time to do that, you can contribute by filing bugs in bugzilla.gnome.org whenever you find problems or missing pieces and by contributing fixes to the individual projects. Check out the gnome-doc-list mailing list for more information on how you can help.

9) Why subscribe?
by JThaddeus

I was considering subscribing in order to improve the performance of downloads (which have gone to a snail's pace since the subscription program began) but two out of three of my last update attempts have ended in file not found errors. This type of error doesn't give me confidence in how well RedCarpet setups are tested. So why shouldn't I just forget about subscriptions and go with KDE?

Nat:

Without more information, I can't say exactly what the problem is that you were experiencing. That type of issue can sometimes happen if you're updating from one of our mirrors that is in the process of syncing from our master site.

I can tell you that we do directed testing on all updates that are pushed to Red Carpet, on every single supported platform, before an update is released. Additionally, we pay close attention to the bug reports that our users file in our bug tracking system, and make an effort to address all of those as quickly as possible.

Just last week we released a new channel in Red Carpet called "Untested," which contains the pre-QA versions of all of our Ximian GNOME updates before they hit the main channel. Similar to the Mandrake Cooker or Debian unstable, this is a way for the update junkies of the world to get an early glimpse at new packages and versions before they hit the official channel. And of course, this is a way for us to get broader user testing and resolve problems earlier.

Also, by the way, the bandwidth we've allocated to our free public Red Carpet servers has been steadily increasing since the launch of the subscription program. If the servers have gotten slower, it's because the user demand keeps increasing.

But whatever your experiences with Red Carpet, they should not be brought to bear on your choice of desktop. Red Carpet is a software management service that is independent of your choice of desktop or web browser or editor or whatever. And because the Red Carpet client is statically linked, you don't even have to have GNOME installed to use it. In fact, about 20% of Red Carpet usage is by people who want to get updates to the packages provided by their distribution, not Ximian GNOME.

10) External Compatibility
by dspeyer

What plans do you have to improve compatibility with the non-GNOME world?

For example, do you think it's practical to implement Xaw as a front-end to GTK? That would get OpenOffice integration real fast, among others. What about a unified theme format with KDE? Or a common protocol for copy/paste?

It seems like this sort of stuff would be really helpful -- what's actually in the works?

Nat:

Compatibility actually has less to do with an application's choice of drawing toolkit than you might think. Of course, there's nothing to prevent you from running a non-GTK application in GNOME, and it's not necessarily the case that the user experience is hugely degraded if you do. I know of a lot of KDE users who started using Evolution in the last couple of months, because the functionality is so rich, which is great.

GNOME and KDE have had drag-n-drop and cut-n-paste interoperability for quite a while, and we also use the same .desktop file format to store launchers and menu items. You can track a lot of this stuff at freedesktop.org.

Open Office does not use Xaw. That being said, it would be great if OpenOffice used the Gtk drawing primitives so that OpenOffice would be theme-compatible with GNOME. It would not be a total integration, and the behaviour might still be different, but it would help the desktop to look more like a single unit. In fact, it would be possible to get Qt to use Gdk as well, which could make shared themes possible there too.

Another step would be to adopt a common set of icons; baby steps like this can improve visual harmony a lot, even if the "compatibility" is only at a very superficial level. These first steps could be followed by deeper integration, like a working bridge between Bonobo and Uno, the OpenOffice component system.

A unified theme format with KDE would probably be difficult, having a theme or set of core themes for GNOME and KDE which looked and felt the same on both would be a nice step toward making the desktops more compatible to the user. There have been noises made recently that this kind of thing is a possibility, and Ximian would be fully supportive of that.

Though these surface integration steps would be nice, the area where inter-project compatibility is most badly needed is configuration. If someone is running a mixture of GNOME and KDE applications, Mozilla, OpenOffice, and older Xtk-based programs, they need to be able to make configuration changes that are reflected in every application. Having to go to N different places to set your default URL handler, theme, or MIME type bindings is a real usability problem. Jim Gettys talked about this a lot at the most recent GUADEC. Keith Packard's recent fontconfig work is an excellent example of this.

Nat Friedman often seems to live in the shadow of his famous coworker, Miguel de Icaza, but today it's his turn to shine. You asked Nat questions last week. This week he answers, in detail, with lots of links, touching on subjects ranging from Gnome's future directions to how Microsoft is dealing with Linux as a competitor to Windows. 1) Exchange Like Product
by Kaypro

Currently the Exchange Connector seems to integrate quite well, are there any plans to create a standalone server with similar capabilities to Exchange Server?

Nat:

There are no plans today, but it's a really appealing idea.

Ximian's goal is to enable corporations to deploy and use open source-based desktops. One of the major barriers to this happening today is interoperability with the rest of the corporate computing environment. In the world we all inhabit, that means interoperability with Microsoft products.

When we were doing some product planning and market research early last year we found all these cases in big companies where people had to have two computers on their desk: a Unix machine for their real work -- development, CAD/CAM, 3d rendering, etc -- and a Windows machine so that they could speak all the protocols and file formats that the rest of the office speaks. And we were like: this just ain't right.

In many of these cases, when we asked people, they said that what was keeping that Windows machine on their desk was not, as we expected them to say in all cases, Word or Excel or Powerpoint, but it was actually in many cases Outlook. What happens is that the IT department will proclaim from on high that Exchange is the corporate scheduling standard, and if you ever want to coordinate a meeting or to schedule time in a room or with a projector or any other resource, you have to use Exchange, or you're simply out of the loop.

So this was a situation where providing this functionality under Linux eliminated the need for that Windows machine. This is a clear financial win for the customer and a clear win for the open source desktop. Basically, the Connector was a really obvious product to build.

Will we ever build a collaboration server of our own? It is something we've had some requests for before, and of course we're always listening to our customers and users, but we have no plans to build one today. Tell you what, if you would be interested in paying for such a thing, send email to sales@ximian.com and let us know. :-)

2) Microsoft and Mono?
by zoward

Have you gotten a sense of how Microsoft views the existence of an open source alternative to .NET? Do you think that, over the long term, Microsoft will grow to love, ignore or loathe (and perhaps seek to undermine) Mono?

Nat:

Open source software is a threat to Microsoft's business model, and it is a competitor which they cannot attack with their traditional maneuvers. At the same time, the events of the past seven years, especially the emergence of the web, Linux, Java and XML, have shown Microsoft the marketplace power of open standards. For these reasons, Microsoft's posture toward Mono and similar projects can be hard to gauge.

But the fact is, Linux and other open source efforts are a source of competition for Microsoft, and that is why they are investing 25 million dollars with Unisys to discredit Unix: they are once again facing competition, but this time there is a united front of users and companies around the globe that opposes them. Open source has given the world a common ground.

At the O'Reilly Developer Conference last year on a panel with Michael Tiemann, Tim O'Reilly, and others, Craig Mundie, Microsoft's CTO of Advanced Strategies and Policy, said (I am paraphrasing): "The thing Microsoft does not like about the GPL is that it creates a closed community." Yes, he actually said this, and while the entire audience sat stunned and struggling for oxygen, I remember Tim O'Reilly did not miss a beat, responding with "But so does Microsoft!"

Mono is an open source implementation of the C#, CLR and CLI cross-platform development framework that have been submitted to ECMA for standardization. We are implementing this framework because we believe it is important technology, and that the world should have a free, standards-compliant version of it.

Microsoft wants the ".NET platform" to be adopted, which is why they submitted it to ECMA. Whether or not Microsoft will change their minds, retract their submission, and decide that they do not like Mono is not something I can predict, but if they do, we are ready to adapt to the change and ensure that this technology is available to the world.

3) Core Gnome technologies
by wrinkledshirt

Despite its relatively short lifetime, Gnome's been really great about embracing all sorts of different technologies -- gtk, ORBit, bonobo and now Mono. However, it's sometimes difficult trying to figure out how this all ties together (if it's supposed to at all). Generally speaking, if someone's going to want to develop for Gnome in the future, how should they prepare themselves? What should they want to learn?

Nat:

Actually, the goal of the infrastructural work in GNOME is to abstract all of the underlying technologies away from you so that you can focus on writing your application. We want you to feel the joy of being able to sit down and easily build something, not to hand you a whole bunch of new stuff to learn.

Nowadays GNOME application development can be done rapidly and easily using Python or Perl and the Glade GUI construction tool.

For a lot of people, these languages and tools are the best way to build an application. The GtkPerl site has an example of a GNOME panel applet written in just 60 lines of Perl (and I'm sure it could be done in less). Not everyone knows that Anaconda, the Red Hat Linux installer is actually written using PyGtk.

Using Glade to create your user interfaces not only frees you from the arduous task of manually doing all of the widget creation and packing, it also makes your application more flexible because the GUI layout is loaded at run-time from an XML file. For the GNOME project this has been really helpful, since it means that a lot of UI design and prototyping work can be done without the need to even touch the code.

If you want to learn more, developer.gnome.org has a pretty good overview of the GNOME architecture.

All of the GNOME technologies that you've heard about work under the hood to provide consistency, configurability, and scripting features that you, as a programmer, only come into contact with if you need them. The goal, to steal directly from Larry Wall, is to make the easy things easy and the hard things possible.

For example, you might (or might not) have heard of Atk, Gail and at-spi. These are accessibility ("a11y") technologies that are in GNOME 2 to make it possible for applications to be used by people with various kinds of impairments. But you do not need to be exposed to any of the details of CORBA in order to use them, and in fact, some of the a11y features come for free just from building your application using GNOME 2.

By the way, I happen to think that accessibility is a killer feature in GNOME 2. At GUAD3C, Marc Mulcahy gave a great demo of how a sightless person can navigate the desktop using a screen reader. And we have been working on a set of accessible icons for GNOME 2 as well. There are cool side effects too: Because GNOME's accessibility infrastructure is done programmatically and at the widget level, you can actually attach to a remote running application and introspect and act on its widget tree. This may make it possible for us to eventually have a very high-quality automated UI testing tool.

Check out the GNOME Accessibility Project web page for more information.

As for Mono, it is still a technology under development, and the GNOME project has not made a decision to adopt it in any way yet. Work on C# bindings for Gtk is progressing, however, so you will be able to write Gtk and, eventually, GNOME applications in C#.

4) Usability research
by nakhla

One of the big problems facing GNOME and other open-source software is that of ease-of-use. Microsoft and Apple spend millions of dollars when developing new operating systems or UIs in order to ensure that their product is easy to use for the non-geek end user. What kind of useability studies has Ximian conducted? What is Ximian doing to correct any problems that the research has brought to light?

Nat:

Ximian and the GNOME project have learned from standard, existing industry practices for building usable software. In short this means designing for usability, performing formal usability testing on real users, and treating usability problems as first-class bugs.

The GNOME Usability Project is a nice central resource for a lot of the usability work that has gone into GNOME. Recently the project has been making a lot of progress on the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines, a set of UI rules that will help GNOME achieve much better consistency in its user interfaces. The results of the comprehensive GNOME desktop usability study that Sun performed last year are worth a read, too, even if we've already overcome a lot of that stuff in GNOME 2.

In the course of the design of Evolution 1.0 and 1.2 (due out this summer), Anna Dirks, our UI designer, performed many dozens of usability tests on various parts of Evolution, using a wide variety of people with varying degrees and types of experience using computers. Anna delivered a nice talk on the usability testing process at the GUADEC Conference

An application's usability is directly related to the ease with which a user can predict its behavior when he gives it input. This is why usability testing is a productive activity. In its basic form, it goes like this:

1. Create a prototype of the interface you are designing. In some cases prototypes are created using "scripting" languages or "RAD" tools, and sometimes they are just printed onto "paper." This last type is called a "paper prototype," the name deriving from the "paper" on which it is printed, and the fact that it is a prototype.

2. Coerce an appropriately representative set of individuals into participating in the usability test. The use of lethal force may be necessary.

3. Ask the user to perform a certain task, using the prototype.

4. Observe and record the steps the user takes, with particular attention to his mistakes.

5. Rinse, lather, repeat.

The fundamental premise of the usability test is that the user has certain expectations of how a given interface will behave, and the thing that a designer must do is to identify the places where his interface does not conform to those expectations, and to fix them.

At Ximian we've gotten subjects for our usability tests from a variety of places; there's a movie theater downstairs from our office and sometimes we'll hang out there and offer people free movie passes to participate in usability tests. So we get a pretty broad audience.

All usability issues that arise during a usability test are filed as bugs in bugzilla alongside other issues, and of course the subject's comments inform the revised design of the interface in question.

For GNOME 2, we decided to revamp all of the GNOME stock icons to improve their consistency, usability and to brighten up the style a bit. Ximian has contributed all of these new icons back to GNOME; you can check them out on developer.ximian.com.

Havoc recently wrote a nice piece which covers UI design in free software, and in GNOME in particular.

5) Conflict of Philosophies
by polyphemus-blinder

I would like to know:

What is your take on the apparent paradox resulting from:

1. the goal of uniformity on the Linux desktop, and

2. the many, many, groups who have this as their own special goal?

Mandrake and RedHat work toward this on the OS level, and Gnome and KDE battle it out on the desktop integration level, and many others espouse some sort of a "grand unification theory" of Linux.

Do you subscribe to the theory that less is more, or that multiple groups with a common goal will result in the goal's earlier acheivement?

Nat:

In any large-scale human endeavor, consistency is a very difficult goal. I once heard a senior Microsoft project manager express the goal of consistency in software thusly: "A program should look as if it were written by one person." This is a thing that everyone struggles with.

To give you a short summary of my answer:

(1) Consistency is hard.

(2) Decentralization and parallel development are inherent to open source software.

(3) Open standards and making an effort to work together are key. Let's try to do more of that.

Consistency in software applications means fewer surprises, a gentler learning curve, and being able to get your work done without tripping over an application's special quirks along the way. This is especially true of the interfaces that the application exposes.

For human interfaces, consistency means that the elements of the application do what the user expects them to do, and that the interface, consequently, does not get in the user's way. This means that a dialog's Close button is always in the same place, the menubar always appears at the top of the window, and Ctrl-Q always quits. Usability flows predictability which flows from consistency.

For programming interfaces, or APIs, consistency means that the methods you invoke have predictable characteristics: similar naming, the same memory management semantics, the same return values in an error condition. This means cleaner code, less time spent hunting through documentation, and fewer bugs.

So we can agree that consistency is a good thing. Two things are needed to achieve it: a standard, and a way to enforce that standard.

In more centralized environments, such as companies, these things are easier to do. It is naive to think that any company, even Microsoft is fully centrally controlled, but it is certainly much easier to enforce a single standard on people when you are paying them, and when you have editorial control over the final product.

But even with a single, documented standard and even if you are paying people's salaries, consistency does not come easily, even in the most centralized environments. At one point Microsoft had at least nine separate internal implementations of SOAP, and only recently have these all been consolidated...into four.

So how on earth do we achieve consistency in a decentralized environment? Given that starting your very own open source "project" is a matter of a few clicks on sourceforge, how do we "prevent" people from creating applications that do not adhere to some common set of ideas as to how they should behave? Given that there is no central control of what happens in the open source desktop world, how can we even create a standard that we all agree on?

I remember when Mac OS X first came out, people asked a lot of similar questions: How can we ever create an interface that is as consistent as this in our weirdo free code, free love, gift economy, bazaar-inspired noospheric environment?

This question can be considered at different scales: how can consistency be achieved within a single project, and how can it be achieved in the open source world in general.

And this issue of decentralized development comes up in other guises as well. In addition to bemoaning a lack of consistency, people talk about duplication of effort and fragmentation. They say things like: "If only we could focus all of the energy that has gone into producing all of the IRC clients in the world on building just one IRC client, think how awesome it could be!" People really say this sort of thing. I have heard them.

And, of course, there are those in the press and on the mailing lists who see this very same pattern in what they call the "GNOME vs KDE wars" or "the desktop wars." This is the "How many Linux distributions can you count?" conundrum.

Many people who are much smarter and better looking than I have responded to this question at various times.

Linus has said that he believes that in the Linux development community today, there is a "psychological barrier to fragmentation," and that this barrier is the learned result of the Unix wars of the 1980s.

Alan Cox has said that implementation fragmentation is not important, as long as care is taken not to break interface compatibility. The important thing, quoth Alan, is the existence and adherence to open standards. And Eric Raymond has pontificated at length about how it is the nature of the open source community, when confronted with a problem to solve, to try "all solutions at the same time." That is, I think Eric would tell you, the nature of the open source world, and, in many ways, its greatest strength. And of course, Eric is right. Seriously, I love that guy.

If on an iron-gray fall day you have looked up and seen a dark spot moving against the sky and changing shape and size but still moving smoothly in one direction and then it came closer and when you looked you could see the individual birds flapping their wings and shifting forward and back in the formation and alternately turning against and away from each other but still somehow moving all together as one mass, I think you have seen something that resembles the greater open source development community, if there can be said to be such a thing.

The thing that the birds are doing is called "flocking," and today the problem of flocking is still an interesting issue in algorithmic circles. The basic scenario is that, with each element in the flock making its own individual movement decisions based on its own individual and unique sensory input of what is happening immediately around it, the flock must somehow move along a single path, as a whole. The analogy of the Boids flocking algorithm actually runs deeper than you might expect; check it out sometime.

What is important in open source software is doing the actual human work of getting people together and creating the open standards that will allow us to function as a group, and to move in the same direction. And the way to do that is through open, shared standards.

I'm not talking about a kind of abstract standards process where an aesthete group of monks argues for centuries in the thin mountain air about file system standards before descending with etched tablets, but a process where implementors agree on good-enough standards of existing practices in the places that matter, today. Standardization is a way for us to align our directions, maintain implementation distance, and follow a common flight path, not an end in and of itself.

The thing to recognize is that the problem of creating a consistent desktop experience and the fact that our approach is a multi-pronged, decentralized, evolutionary one do not have to be at odds with each other. The key to consistency is to work toward it.

6) As a business
by Fizzlewhiff

Is it frustrating to see potential revenue lost due to offering the same products for free? Do you ever run the numbers to see what your income potential might be if you stopped giving away the same software you sell or do you believe that the Linux community, as a whole, cannot and will not support companies who only sell Linux software?

Nat:

If in the last two years we hadn't put out approaching 2 million lines of GPL'd and LGPL'd code, we would not have nearly the success that we have today.

If you're going to run those kinds of numbers, you should also calculate:

1. How much extra would you have to spend on development in order to compensate for the fact that you will no longer have the help of a large community of testers, translators and hackers?

2. How much do you have to spend on marketing to even reach the same level of name recognition you can achieve by being a responsible, active open source software development company? Would you have the same amount of credibility?

During the several months that preceded Evolution 1.0, we averaged around 10,000 daily downloads of the Evolution snapshots, and many of the downloaders were actively reporting and fixing the bugs that they found. How much would it have cost us to manually test Evolution against the wide variety of IMAP, LDAP and Palm devices that the Evolution codebase was exposed to by this army of users?

This kind of thinking may sound cold and not particularly ideological, but if you're going to perform one kind of calculation, you gotta do them all. I have actually heard of open source companies sitting down and working out the second, marketing calculation, and including it in their business plans as a rationale for writing free code.

7) Co-existance of Red-Carpet and up2date/RHN
by yusufg

Hi, Red-Carpet seems to offer functionality similar to up2date/redhat network. However, there seems to be a very substantial lag between packages made available via Ximian's redhat channel and up2date.

An example being (till now, RPM 4.0.4) is not available via the Redhat 7.2 channel. Is Ximian going to ever make a policy statement as to what is the maximum duration their userbase will be diverged from receiving the latest updates of their respective distributions.

If there are specific packages which are likely not to be made available via red-carpet, can their be an official statement on this so that users are aware of the pros/cons of using multiple update mechanisms?

Nat:

Our policy is that all distribution and third-party updates are made available through Red Carpet as soon as they can reasonably be pushed without breaking other software for the user.

For example, with security updates, these are always made available as soon possible, often within just a few hours, always within a day.

With something like the RPM 4.0.4 update, however, sometimes we have to lag behind the upstream provider, in order to ensure compatibility. This does not mean that we hate Red Hat or that we do not care about users, or that we are lazy.

In the particular case of RPM, new releases of RPM often break binary or database compatibility with old versions (this was true with 4.0.4), and so we are cautious about making these available to users until we have first ensured that Red Carpet will continue to work on your system. I am not trying to pass the buck to Red Hat here. They are great people. Our userbase, in running Red Carpet, just happens to have a different set of needs than Red Hat's, and this is what, in the case of RPM 4.0.4, created the delay you noticed.

To answer your second question, as long as the packages that are shipped by the upstream providers are open source, and as long as we can legally redistribute them, we will make them available via Red Carpet.

8) Lack of documentation for GNOME internals
by Tet

Are there any plans to increase the amount of documentation on GNOME internals? While GNOME seems to have plenty of trivial documentation (such as the GNOME User's Guide [redhat.com], there's virtually nothing that explains what's going on underneath. Are there any plans for a "GNOME Administrator's Guide"? I'm thinking of something that documents usage of files in $HOME/.gnome, what session management is and how it works, what controls the contents of the GNOME menu, and so on. For example, when GNOME fails to correctly save session information, I'd like to be able to check the documentation to see what should be being written to .gnome/session. At the moment, I just have to guess. Some of it is reasonably obvious from context, but it's the sort of thing that really needs formally documenting.

Nat:

So, for a lot of the stuff you're talking about, the documentation is out there. If you want to learn about the session manager and how to configure it, check out the man pages for "gnome-session" "default.session" and "save-session". There's also a white paper covering a lot of the configuration files, though it is out of date. Collecting and updating all of these things into a single "GNOME System Administrator's Guide" sounds like a great idea for a project for someone :-).

The GNOME Documentation Project and the individual efforts of developers and users have produced a large amount of documentation to date. In addition to the GNOME User's Guide that you mention, there is the user's manual work that Sun has been doing. There is also a lot of developer documentation on developer.gnome.org, including some useful tutorials and white papers.

With all of the large vendors that are shipping GNOME on their workstations, I think it's a safe bet that the components of an administrator's guide will come together in the near future. I know that, inside Ximian, we have recently written for a customer some documentation specifically focused on issues that would be interesting to system administrators, and naturally we will be working to release this to the community at some point soon.

Of course, if you or anyone else out there wants to join up with the GNOME Docs team and start assembling such a guide, you would be welcomed with open arms :-). If you don't have time to do that, you can contribute by filing bugs in bugzilla.gnome.org whenever you find problems or missing pieces and by contributing fixes to the individual projects. Check out the gnome-doc-list mailing list for more information on how you can help.

9) Why subscribe?
by JThaddeus

I was considering subscribing in order to improve the performance of downloads (which have gone to a snail's pace since the subscription program began) but two out of three of my last update attempts have ended in file not found errors. This type of error doesn't give me confidence in how well RedCarpet setups are tested. So why shouldn't I just forget about subscriptions and go with KDE?

Nat:

Without more information, I can't say exactly what the problem is that you were experiencing. That type of issue can sometimes happen if you're updating from one of our mirrors that is in the process of syncing from our master site.

I can tell you that we do directed testing on all updates that are pushed to Red Carpet, on every single supported platform, before an update is released. Additionally, we pay close attention to the bug reports that our users file in our bug tracking system, and make an effort to address all of those as quickly as possible.

Just last week we released a new channel in Red Carpet called "Untested," which contains the pre-QA versions of all of our Ximian GNOME updates before they hit the main channel. Similar to the Mandrake Cooker or Debian unstable, this is a way for the update junkies of the world to get an early glimpse at new packages and versions before they hit the official channel. And of course, this is a way for us to get broader user testing and resolve problems earlier.

Also, by the way, the bandwidth we've allocated to our free public Red Carpet servers has been steadily increasing since the launch of the subscription program. If the servers have gotten slower, it's because the user demand keeps increasing.

But whatever your experiences with Red Carpet, they should not be brought to bear on your choice of desktop. Red Carpet is a software management service that is independent of your choice of desktop or web browser or editor or whatever. And because the Red Carpet client is statically linked, you don't even have to have GNOME installed to use it. In fact, about 20% of Red Carpet usage is by people who want to get updates to the packages provided by their distribution, not Ximian GNOME.

10) External Compatibility
by dspeyer

What plans do you have to improve compatibility with the non-GNOME world?

For example, do you think it's practical to implement Xaw as a front-end to GTK? That would get OpenOffice integration real fast, among others. What about a unified theme format with KDE? Or a common protocol for copy/paste?

It seems like this sort of stuff would be really helpful -- what's actually in the works?

Nat:

Compatibility actually has less to do with an application's choice of drawing toolkit than you might think. Of course, there's nothing to prevent you from running a non-GTK application in GNOME, and it's not necessarily the case that the user experience is hugely degraded if you do. I know of a lot of KDE users who started using Evolution in the last couple of months, because the functionality is so rich, which is great.

GNOME and KDE have had drag-n-drop and cut-n-paste interoperability for quite a while, and we also use the same .desktop file format to store launchers and menu items. You can track a lot of this stuff at freedesktop.org.

Open Office does not use Xaw. That being said, it would be great if OpenOffice used the Gtk drawing primitives so that OpenOffice would be theme-compatible with GNOME. It would not be a total integration, and the behaviour might still be different, but it would help the desktop to look more like a single unit. In fact, it would be possible to get Qt to use Gdk as well, which could make shared themes possible there too.

Another step would be to adopt a common set of icons; baby steps like this can improve visual harmony a lot, even if the "compatibility" is only at a very superficial level. These first steps could be followed by deeper integration, like a working bridge between Bonobo and Uno, the OpenOffice component system.

A unified theme format with KDE would probably be difficult, having a theme or set of core themes for GNOME and KDE which looked and felt the same on both would be a nice step toward making the desktops more compatible to the user. There have been noises made recently that this kind of thing is a possibility, and Ximian would be fully supportive of that.

Though these surface integration steps would be nice, the area where inter-project compatibility is most badly needed is configuration. If someone is running a mixture of GNOME and KDE applications, Mozilla, OpenOffice, and older Xtk-based programs, they need to be able to make configuration changes that are reflected in every application. Having to go to N different places to set your default URL handler, theme, or MIME type bindings is a real usability problem. Jim Gettys talked about this a lot at the most recent GUADEC. Keith Packard's recent fontconfig work is an excellent example of this.

This week's interview guest is Nat Friedman, co-founder and vice president of product development for Ximian. Nat is also co-chair of The Gnome Foundation, and an all-around nice guy. Post your questions (one per post, please) for Nat below. We'll forward 10 of the highest-moderated ones to him, and will post his answers (verbatim except for HTML formatting) within the next week.

An Anonymous Coward writes: "Ximian Connector is out! Regardless if you don't like open source and Microsoft playing together this will let me ditch my Win2k box at work! Here is the press release. Of note, MS Exchange 2000 has a nice HTTP interface to it as well, works wonderfully in Galeon." kittenslietome adds a link to the license under which it's released as well: Connector is not Free software, but rather software Ximian hopes will pay for further Free software development.

An Anonymous Coward writes: "Ximian Connector is out! Regardless if you don't like open source and Microsoft playing together this will let me ditch my Win2k box at work! Here is the press release. Of note, MS Exchange 2000 has a nice HTTP interface to it as well, works wonderfully in Galeon." kittenslietome adds a link to the license under which it's released as well: Connector is not Free software, but rather software Ximian hopes will pay for further Free software development.

An Anonymous Coward writes: "Ximian Connector is out! Regardless if you don't like open source and Microsoft playing together this will let me ditch my Win2k box at work! Here is the press release. Of note, MS Exchange 2000 has a nice HTTP interface to it as well, works wonderfully in Galeon." kittenslietome adds a link to the license under which it's released as well: Connector is not Free software, but rather software Ximian hopes will pay for further Free software development.

Just saw in Red Hat's FTP's - Redhat 7.3 (codename:skipjack) is available for download. There aren't lots of changes there, but you'll find that RedHat 7.3 comes with KDE 3.0 (rc3 is on this beta), you'll need to remove the Ximian Gnome before upgrade, and in general - read the release notes before testing this release. As always, don't try it on your main Linux partition, and use the mirrors. Annoucment is here (thanks to Linux Weekly News)

thing12 writes "On Thursday Paolo Molaro announced that he had managed to build the MCS C# compiler using MCS. This is a big step forward for Mono, as it means that Mono is almost a self hosting environment."

miguel writes: "Here is my reply to the various questions on Mono, the future of GNOME and the Register statements." Linux Today has a copy of the email as well.

Bob Smith writes: "Miguel just commited the last patch nessisary to get Mono's C# compiler to compile itself. After 7 odd months, MCS is now self hosting." jbarn adds: "Mono-list email is here."

GeneJock writes "Apparently the days of free fast updates from Ximian are gone. The latest update to the Ximian suite replaces the old Red Carpet Manager with a newer version which includes access to a subscription service. This subscription service costs $9.95 a month ($7.95 for the first two months if you signup now). You can still get the updates for free but its slow going... looks like I'll be getting my updates overnight. Read all about it here." Can't fault a company for trying to make some money - hope it works. Update: 12/19 16:48 GMT by T : Please note: Ximian isn't cutting back on the free downloads, either -- in fact, just the opposite. Read below for some more information about this, including a link (yup) to a standalone static binary of Red Carpet, so you don't even need to use Ximian Gnome.

Nat Friedman of Ximian points out that the introduction of the subscription service doesn't mean a reduction in the availability of free downloads, from Ximian and the 40 associated mirror sites. "We've actually grown the pipe by 500% over the past 4 to 6 months," he says. "We also have a mirror coordinator." He cites ever-increasing numbers of Red Carpet sessions as the reason for introducing a subscription; November alone saw three quarters of a million sessions.

That number seems likely to increase, in part because of Ximian partnerships with companies like HP, now shipping a preview release of Ximian Gnome on HP-UX, but also because the Red Carpet software update system no longer requires Ximan Gnome; Friedman passed along this link to distribution-specific static binaries which work with other distributions as well.

Despite new servers and more bandwidth, Friedman asserts that some users downloading software for free will inevitably hit servers at times "when they're getting 8k downloads and they'd rather be getting 50k, and that's really who the subscription is for."

GeneJock writes "Apparently the days of free fast updates from Ximian are gone. The latest update to the Ximian suite replaces the old Red Carpet Manager with a newer version which includes access to a subscription service. This subscription service costs $9.95 a month ($7.95 for the first two months if you signup now). You can still get the updates for free but its slow going... looks like I'll be getting my updates overnight. Read all about it here." Can't fault a company for trying to make some money - hope it works. Update: 12/19 16:48 GMT by T : Please note: Ximian isn't cutting back on the free downloads, either -- in fact, just the opposite. Read below for some more information about this, including a link (yup) to a standalone static binary of Red Carpet, so you don't even need to use Ximian Gnome.

Nat Friedman of Ximian points out that the introduction of the subscription service doesn't mean a reduction in the availability of free downloads, from Ximian and the 40 associated mirror sites. "We've actually grown the pipe by 500% over the past 4 to 6 months," he says. "We also have a mirror coordinator." He cites ever-increasing numbers of Red Carpet sessions as the reason for introducing a subscription; November alone saw three quarters of a million sessions.

That number seems likely to increase, in part because of Ximian partnerships with companies like HP, now shipping a preview release of Ximian Gnome on HP-UX, but also because the Red Carpet software update system no longer requires Ximan Gnome; Friedman passed along this link to distribution-specific static binaries which work with other distributions as well.

Despite new servers and more bandwidth, Friedman asserts that some users downloading software for free will inevitably hit servers at times "when they're getting 8k downloads and they'd rather be getting 50k, and that's really who the subscription is for."

PenguinX writes: "It seems that the folks out at Ximian and HP have delivered on the promise to make Ximian Gnome (1.2) for HP-UX." Another nail in the CDE coffin ;)

PenguinX writes: "It seems that the folks out at Ximian and HP have delivered on the promise to make Ximian Gnome (1.2) for HP-UX." Another nail in the CDE coffin ;)

twigman writes "MSDN has an interview with Ximian CTO Miguel de Icaza about Mono and past Ximian projects. It's a surprisingly objective discussion, definitely worth a read." Of course we're not surprised Miguel is objective...

One of the most-heard complains from people who use distributions like Red Hat, Mandrake or SuSE is the "dependency hell" problem. You want to install an RPM and bang -- you have a dependency problem. There have been a few attempts to overcome dependency problems: SuSE with their YOU (Your Online Update), Mandrake with URPMI, and Redhat with their UP2date program. There is also a solution from Aduva called Aduvizor, but it's not supporting the latest distributions yet. Read on to learn about another interesting solution ... One of the solutions is Ximian Red Carpet (which is available to most of the distributions, freely or by subscription for increased download speed), however Red Carpet has one big problem -- if the package is not on Ximian Red-Carpet servers (like, umm, KDE packages), you're (again) on your own.

Then there is another solution from Connectiva in Brazil, which has made something called APT4RPM -- basically an APT wrapper around RPM database on your machines, so you can use all of Debian's APT features (sans DSELECT feature) to upgrade your packages, or your entire distribution. (So now you can use your favorite distribution AND APT to update it.)

Two open source developers have improved Connectiva's solution to work with ANY RPM-4 based solution, and the [not finished yet but seems pretty stable solution] is at APT4RPM project pages in sourceforge. I have decided to give a test on my Redhat 7.2 machine. I installed the binaries, edited the /etc/apt/sources.list (just remove the # from your distribution's mirror), typed "apt-get dist-update," crossed my fingers -- and lo and behold, 48 new packages were installed, 7 were upgraded, and I only had to press "enter" to start the ball rolling!

So, for those of you who want to test it -- the URL is above (and if you could help with creating mirrors for your favorite distribution - that would be very helpful, thank you), you might want to try it. Just don't forget to read the FAQ before doing anything, and report bugs to the authors. Note: although the binaries are for Red Hat, the SRPMS are right there so you can just recompile it on your favorite distribution. Enjoy.

jdavidb writes: "I pulled up the Ximian redcarpet updater this morning and discovered that Evolution 1.0 is finally available! Now Outlook can start facing some serious competition, although there's still a long way to go. (Evolution does not yet emulate all the Outlook viruses, of course, nor does it integrate with Exchange Server.)" Here's Ximian's full announcement. Update: 12/03 14:59 GMT by T : Nat Friedman of Ximian points out that they're offering a software extension which does allow integration with Exchange 2000. There's good story on the new iteration of Evolution at NewsForge, too.

jdavidb writes: "I pulled up the Ximian redcarpet updater this morning and discovered that Evolution 1.0 is finally available! Now Outlook can start facing some serious competition, although there's still a long way to go. (Evolution does not yet emulate all the Outlook viruses, of course, nor does it integrate with Exchange Server.)" Here's Ximian's full announcement. Update: 12/03 14:59 GMT by T : Nat Friedman of Ximian points out that they're offering a software extension which does allow integration with Exchange 2000. There's good story on the new iteration of Evolution at NewsForge, too.

jdavidb writes: "I pulled up the Ximian redcarpet updater this morning and discovered that Evolution 1.0 is finally available! Now Outlook can start facing some serious competition, although there's still a long way to go. (Evolution does not yet emulate all the Outlook viruses, of course, nor does it integrate with Exchange Server.)" Here's Ximian's full announcement. Update: 12/03 14:59 GMT by T : Nat Friedman of Ximian points out that they're offering a software extension which does allow integration with Exchange 2000. There's good story on the new iteration of Evolution at NewsForge, too.

kerskine writes: "Just read this article on CNET that says Sega has just dropped the price of the Dreamcast console to US$49.95. Given past articles on Slashdot on all sorts of fun Dreamcast projects, now's the chance to get one. Why not get two (in case you break one)?" See also this article on getting Linux to run on Dreamcast, and NetBSD is another option to explore. 8ight points out even more interesting Dreamcast information.

Reader samjam sent in an interesting piece about his dream handheld PC, sort of a cross between a subnotebook and a wireless web pad, with the kitchen sink thrown in. Mmmmm, light-emitting polymers. I can't decide if this kind of thing is right around the corner or just a fantasy - after all, normal notebook computers sell, and at a nice high premium - and web pads are less than successful - why would anyone spend the money to develop a device like this? samjam writes: "My dream handheld is not available though some things come close. The technology is becoming available.

Though it may take a few months, here is what I would put together if I had the chance. Including Bluetooth, IButtons, solar panels and light emitting polymer screens...

For links to other linux handhelds, try linuxdevices.com.

My ideal handheld is the size of an A4 pad of paper, so I have to hold it on my left forearm with the fingers of my left hand curled over the end. A4 gives me plenty of screen space for watching real TV, reading real books, writing real emails, browsing real web pages and doing some real showing off.

The front cover is a solar panel, but I can't decide if the cells should be on the inside or the outside to help charge it while I use it or while I'm not using it. Hard one that.

The screen is not heavy-breakable LCD but LEP (brief technical primer, more on Google) or perhaps Xerox Electronic Paper seemingly available under the name Gyricon, pictures here and slight details here.

The choice of processor doesn't bother me much; I'd like to think there are many versions available of my handheld by many manufacturers (to drive the price down) and so many processors will be available but let's pretend the first release will run on a Transmeta just to keep excitement running high.

60 GB or so should be plenty of disk space, 2.5" IDE to keep weight down.

Input via stylus or sticky finger of course, with support for Graffiti, as used on the Palm and many others, also Quickwriting as featured on Slashdot as well as regular handwriting recognition (take your pick) and other pluggable input modules with popup keyboard for those times when you just can't manage to input a tilde (~) or backtick (`) properly.

Connectivity will be provided via a multitide of USB ports (where real keyboards can be plugged), Bluetooth (useless link) in action (good link), wireless ethernet as well as perhaps as many as 4 PCMCIA slots for things that change a lot like GPRS adaptors &c, or radio and TV tuner cards. Yeah! Why not add some Compact Flash while I'm at it? And boring 100 base T ethernet.

In fact I'm going to use the mobile phone card, along with my sound system to make the whole thing into a mobile phone for voice, not just data access. Talking of phones, the built in web cam can be used for video conferencing with (for example) Gnophone.

Better stick some firewire ports on there, too, for good measure, along with a few IRDA ports pointing in a few different directions for those more subversive inter-classroom networks as well as controlling my grannies telly to show off. And talking to my old non-bluetooth mobile which I can't afford to upgrade cos I spent it all on my handheld.

It will have integrated Ibutton support for security and authentification, maybe even built into the BIOS.

What more do I need? Oh yes, an Operating System. Pick your own.

I shall be running Linux with Ximian Gnome because it looks cool (and Bill Gates was nearly right, eye candy counts for a lot if only not to distract you by means of ugliness). I will be running redhat because I find up2date (or redhat channels of RedCarpet) invaluable effort-free way to remove those exploits, and I will finally get round to playing with Rebol.

The first thing I will need to develop is some network scavenging software to grab internet connectivity where it can for syncing imap folders and news, updating "offline web pages" [yikes! MS concept there]. Code to hi-jack available SMTP relays (*cough*). Does this smell a bit like Jini or something like it? I'll need to register my changing location for Gnophone so callers can find me. Perhaps the first thing for company visitors in the future will be to checkin their Ideal Handheld to the company network.

I will load all my favourite books into it as well as the entire classical Mormon works, copies of conference talks Doctrines of Salvation, Journal of Discourses etc, along with the Bible, Book of Mormon, and all of Project Gutenberg.

What will you do with yours? Have I missed any gizmos out? Or gadgets even?"

Reader samjam sent in an interesting piece about his dream handheld PC, sort of a cross between a subnotebook and a wireless web pad, with the kitchen sink thrown in. Mmmmm, light-emitting polymers. I can't decide if this kind of thing is right around the corner or just a fantasy - after all, normal notebook computers sell, and at a nice high premium - and web pads are less than successful - why would anyone spend the money to develop a device like this? samjam writes: "My dream handheld is not available though some things come close. The technology is becoming available.

Though it may take a few months, here is what I would put together if I had the chance. Including Bluetooth, IButtons, solar panels and light emitting polymer screens...

For links to other linux handhelds, try linuxdevices.com.

My ideal handheld is the size of an A4 pad of paper, so I have to hold it on my left forearm with the fingers of my left hand curled over the end. A4 gives me plenty of screen space for watching real TV, reading real books, writing real emails, browsing real web pages and doing some real showing off.

The front cover is a solar panel, but I can't decide if the cells should be on the inside or the outside to help charge it while I use it or while I'm not using it. Hard one that.

The screen is not heavy-breakable LCD but LEP (brief technical primer, more on Google) or perhaps Xerox Electronic Paper seemingly available under the name Gyricon, pictures here and slight details here.

The choice of processor doesn't bother me much; I'd like to think there are many versions available of my handheld by many manufacturers (to drive the price down) and so many processors will be available but let's pretend the first release will run on a Transmeta just to keep excitement running high.

60 GB or so should be plenty of disk space, 2.5" IDE to keep weight down.

Input via stylus or sticky finger of course, with support for Graffiti, as used on the Palm and many others, also Quickwriting as featured on Slashdot as well as regular handwriting recognition (take your pick) and other pluggable input modules with popup keyboard for those times when you just can't manage to input a tilde (~) or backtick (`) properly.

Connectivity will be provided via a multitide of USB ports (where real keyboards can be plugged), Bluetooth (useless link) in action (good link), wireless ethernet as well as perhaps as many as 4 PCMCIA slots for things that change a lot like GPRS adaptors &c, or radio and TV tuner cards. Yeah! Why not add some Compact Flash while I'm at it? And boring 100 base T ethernet.

In fact I'm going to use the mobile phone card, along with my sound system to make the whole thing into a mobile phone for voice, not just data access. Talking of phones, the built in web cam can be used for video conferencing with (for example) Gnophone.

Better stick some firewire ports on there, too, for good measure, along with a few IRDA ports pointing in a few different directions for those more subversive inter-classroom networks as well as controlling my grannies telly to show off. And talking to my old non-bluetooth mobile which I can't afford to upgrade cos I spent it all on my handheld.

It will have integrated Ibutton support for security and authentification, maybe even built into the BIOS.

What more do I need? Oh yes, an Operating System. Pick your own.

I shall be running Linux with Ximian Gnome because it looks cool (and Bill Gates was nearly right, eye candy counts for a lot if only not to distract you by means of ugliness). I will be running redhat because I find up2date (or redhat channels of RedCarpet) invaluable effort-free way to remove those exploits, and I will finally get round to playing with Rebol.

The first thing I will need to develop is some network scavenging software to grab internet connectivity where it can for syncing imap folders and news, updating "offline web pages" [yikes! MS concept there]. Code to hi-jack available SMTP relays (*cough*). Does this smell a bit like Jini or something like it? I'll need to register my changing location for Gnophone so callers can find me. Perhaps the first thing for company visitors in the future will be to checkin their Ideal Handheld to the company network.

I will load all my favourite books into it as well as the entire classical Mormon works, copies of conference talks Doctrines of Salvation, Journal of Discourses etc, along with the Bible, Book of Mormon, and all of Project Gutenberg.

What will you do with yours? Have I missed any gizmos out? Or gadgets even?"

miguel writes: "Today we announced that Mitch Kapor has joined our Board of Directors. He is one of the co-founders of the EFF and Lotus (You can learn more about Mitch here.) In other news, I want to point out guys to our Latest Evolution beta which comes with SSL support (IMAP and SMTP), Pilot syncing and LDAP in the default build. The team at Ximian has been busy fixing every bug you guys have reported (feature requests will have to wait until 1.0 ships, we are in feature freeze now) and we are closing bugs faster that you can report them. What are you guys going to do about this huh? HUH?"

miguel writes: "Today we announced that Mitch Kapor has joined our Board of Directors. He is one of the co-founders of the EFF and Lotus (You can learn more about Mitch here.) In other news, I want to point out guys to our Latest Evolution beta which comes with SSL support (IMAP and SMTP), Pilot syncing and LDAP in the default build. The team at Ximian has been busy fixing every bug you guys have reported (feature requests will have to wait until 1.0 ships, we are in feature freeze now) and we are closing bugs faster that you can report them. What are you guys going to do about this huh? HUH?"

miguel writes: "Today we announced that Mitch Kapor has joined our Board of Directors. He is one of the co-founders of the EFF and Lotus (You can learn more about Mitch here.) In other news, I want to point out guys to our Latest Evolution beta which comes with SSL support (IMAP and SMTP), Pilot syncing and LDAP in the default build. The team at Ximian has been busy fixing every bug you guys have reported (feature requests will have to wait until 1.0 ships, we are in feature freeze now) and we are closing bugs faster that you can report them. What are you guys going to do about this huh? HUH?"

Thanks to Dare Obasanjo for conducting this interview with [Miguel De Icaza], and sending it on to me. I've posted the interview below here - interesting answers, and very thorough. Well done, Dare.

Interview With Miguel de Icaza Bringing a component architecture to the UNIX platform

Summary
In this interview, Miguel de Icaza, the founder of GNOME and Ximian, talks about UNIX components, Bonobo, Mono and .NET.

By Dare (Carnage4Life) Obasanjo

Dare Obasanjo: You have recently been in the press due to Ximian's announcement that it shall create an Open Source implementation of Microsoft's .NET development platform. Before the recent furor you've been notable for the work you've done with GNOME and Bonobo. Can you give a brief overview of your involvement in Free Software from your earlier projects up to Mono?

Miguel de Icaza: I have been working for the past four years on the GNOME project in various areas: organization of it, libraries and applications. Before that I used to work on the Linux kernel, I worked for a long time on the SPARC port, then on the software raid and some on the Linux/SGI effort. Before that I had written the Midnight Commander file manager.

Dare Obasanjo: In your Let's Make Unix Not Suck series you mention that UNIX development has long been hampered by a lack of code reuse. You specifically mention Brad Cox's concept of Software Integrated Circuits, where software is built primarily by combining reusable components, as a vision of how code reuse should occur. Many have countered your arguments by stating that UNIX is built on the concept of using reusable components to build programs by connecting the output of smaller programs with pipes. What are your opinions of this counter-argument?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, the paper addresses that question in detail. A `pipe' is hardly a complete component system. It is a transport mechanism that is used with some well known protocols (lines, characters, buffers) to process information. The protocol only has a flow of information.

Details are on the paper:
http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html [Dare -- check the section entitled "Unix Components: Small is Beautiful"]

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo was your attempt to create a UNIX component architecture using CORBA as the underlying base. What are the reasons you have decided to focus on Mono instead?

Miguel de Icaza: The GNOME project goal was to bring missing technologies to Unix and make it competitive in the current market place for desktop applications. We also realized early on that language independence was important, and that is why GNOME APIs were coded using a standard that allowed the APIs to be easily wrapped for other languages. Our APIs are available to most programming languages on Unix (Perl, Python, Scheme, C++, Objective-C, Ada).

Later on we decided to use better methods for encapsulating our APIs, and we started to use CORBA to define interfaces to components. We complemented it with policy and a set of standard GNOME interfaces for easily creating reusable, language independent components, controls and compound documents. This technology is known as Bonobo. Interfaces to Bonobo exist for C, Perl, Python, and Java.

CORBA is good when you define coarse interfaces, and most Bonobo interfaces are coarse. The only problem is that Bonobo/CORBA interfaces are not good for small interfaces. For example, an XML parsing Bonobo/CORBA component would be inefficient compared to a C API.

I also wrote at some point:

My interest in .NET comes from the attempts that we have made before in the GNOME project to achieve some of the things .NET does:

• APIs that are exposed to multiple languages.
  
• Cross-language integration.
  
• Contract/interface based programming.
  

And on top of things, I always loved various things about Java. I just did not love the Java combo that you were supposed to give or take.

APIs exposed to many languages we tried by having a common object base (GtkObject) and then following an API contract and a format that would allow others to wrap the APIs easily for their programming language. We even have a Scheme-based definition of the API that is used to generate wrappers on the fly. This solution is suboptimal for many reasons.

The Cross-language integration we have been doing with CORBA, sort of like COM, but with an imposed marshalling penalty. It works pretty well for non inProc components. But for inProc components the story is pretty bad: since there was no CORBA ABI that we could use, the result is so horrible, that I have no words to describe it.

On top of this problem, we have a proliferation of libraries. Most of them follow our coding conventions pretty accurately. Every once in a while they either wont or we would adopt a library written by someone else. This had lead to a mix of libraries that although powerful in result implement multiple programming models, sometimes different allocation and ownership policies and after a while you are dealing with 5 different kind of "ref/unref" behaviours (CORBA local references, CORBA object references on Unknown objects, reference count on object wrappers) and this was turning into a gigantic mess.

We have of course been trying to fix all these issues, and things are looking better (the GNOME 2.x platform does solve many of these issues, but still).

.NET seemed to me like an upgrade for Win32 developers: they had the same problems we had when dealing with APIs that have been designed over many years, a great deal of inconsistency. So I want to have some of this new "fresh air" available for building my own applications.

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo is slightly based on COM and OLE2 as can be gleaned from the fact that Bonobo interfaces are all based on the Bonobo::Unknown interface which provides two basic services: object lifetime management and object functionality-discovery and only contains three methods:

 
        module Bonobo {
                interface Unknown {
                        void ref ();
                        void unref ();
                        Object query_interface (in string repoid);
                };
        };

 

which is very similar to Microsoft's COM IUnknown interface which has the following methods

 
HRESULT QueryInterface(REFIID riid, void **ppvObject);
ULONG AddRef();
ULONG Release();
 

Does the fact that .NET seems to spell the impending death of COM mean that Mono will spell the end of of Bonobo? Similarly considering that .NET plans to have semi-transparent COM/.NET interoperability, is there a similar plan for Mono and Bonobo?

Miguel de Icaza: Definetly. Mono will have to interoperate with a number of systems out there including Bonobo on GNOME.

Dare Obasanjo: A number of parties have claimed that Microsoft's NET platform is a poor clone of the Java(TM) platform. If this is the case why hasn't Ximian decided to clone or use the Java platform instead of cloning Microsoft's .NET platform?

Miguel de Icaza: We were interested in the CLR because it solves a problem that we face every day. The Java VM did not solve this problem.

Dare Obasanjo: On the Mono Rationale page it is pointed out that Microsoft's .NET strategy encompasses many efforts including

• The .NET development platform, a new platform for writing software.
• Web services.
• Microsoft Server Applications.
• New tools that use the new development platform.
• Hailstorm, the Passport centralized single-signon system that is being integrated into Windows XP.

and you point out that Mono is merely an implementation of of the .NET development platform. Is there any plan by Ximian to implement other parts of the .NET strategy?

Miguel de Icaza: Not at this point. We have a commitment to develop currently:

• A CLI runtime with a JITer for x86 CPUs.
• A C# compiler.
• A class library

All of the above with the help of external contributors. You have to understand that this is a big undertaking and that without the various people who have donated their time, expertise and code to the project we would not even have a chance of delivering a complete product any time soon.

We are doing this for selfish reasons: we want a better way of developing Linux and Unix applications ourselves and we see the CLI as such a thing.

That being said, Ximian being in the services and support business would not mind extending its effort towards making the Mono project tackle other things like porting to new platforms, or improving the JIT engine, or focusing on a particular area of Mono.

But other than this, we do not have plans at this point to go beyond the three basic announcements that we have made.

Dare Obasanjo: There are a number of other projects that are implementing other parts of .NET on Free platforms that seem to be have friction with the Mono project. Section 7.2 of Portable.NET's FAQ seems to indicate they have had conflict with the Mono project as does the banning of Martin Coxall from the dotGNU mailing list. What are your thoughts on this?

Miguel de Icaza: I did not pay attention to the actual details of the banning of Martin from the DotGNU mailing lists. Usenet and Internet mailing lists are a culture of their own and I think this is just another instance of what usually happens on the net. It is definitely sad.

The focus of Mono and .NET is slightly different: we are writing as much as we can in a high level language like C#, and writing reusable pieces of software out of it. Portable.NET is being written in C.

Dare Obasanjo: There have been conflicting reports about Ximian's relationship with Microsoft. On one hand there are reports that seem to indicate that there may be licensing problems between the license that will govern .NET and the GPL. On the other hand there is an indication that some within Microsoft are enthusiastic about Mono. So exactly what is Ximian's current relationship is with Microsoft and what will be done to ensure that Mono does not violate Microsoft's licenses on .NET if they turn out to be restrictive?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, for one we are writing everything from scratch.

We are trying to stay on the safe side regarding patents. That means that we implement things in a way that has been used in the past and we are not doing tremendously elaborate or efficient things in Mono yet. We are still very far from that. But just using existing technologies and techniques.

Dare Obasanjo: It has been pointed out that Sun retracted Java(TM) from standards processes at least twice, will the Mono project continue if .NET stops being an open standard for any reason?

Miguel de Icaza: The upgrade on our development platform has a value independently of whether it is a standard or not. The fact that Microsoft has submitted its specifications to a standards body has helped, since people who know about these problems have looked at the problem and can pin point problems for interoperability.

Dare Obasanjo: Similarly what happens if Dan Kusnetzky's prediction comes true and Microsoft changes the .NET APIs in the future? Will the Mono project play catchup or will it become an incompatible implementation of .NET on UNIX platforms?

Miguel de Icaza: Microsoft is remarkably good at keeping their APIs backwards compatible (and this is one of the reasons I think they have had so much success as a platform vendor). So I think that this would not be a problem.

Now, even if this was a problem, it is always possible to have multiple implementations of the same APIs and use the correct one by choosing at runtime the proper "assembly". Assemblies are a new way of dealing with software bundles and the files that are part of an assembly can be cryptographically checksummed and their APIs programmatically tested for compatibility. [Dare -- Description of Assemblies from MSDN gloassary]

So even if they deviate from the initial release, it would be possible to provide assemblies that are backwards compatible (we can both do that: Microsoft and ourselves)

Dare Obasanjo: Looking at the Mono class status page I noticed that a large number of .NET class libraries are not being implemented in Mono such as WinForms, ADO.NET, Web Services, XML schemas, reflection and a number of others. This means that it is very likely that when Mono and .NET are finally released apps written for .NET will not be portable to Mono. Is there any plan to rectify this in the future or is creating a portable .NET platform not a goal of the Mono project? Similarly what are the short and long term goals of the Mono project?

Miguel de Icaza: The status web page reflects the classes that people have "requested" to work on. The status web page is just a way of saying `Hey, I am working on this class as of this date' to avoid code duplication. If someone registers their interest in working on something and they do not do something after some period of time, then we can reclaim the class.

We are on the very early stages of the project, so you do see more work going on the foundational classes than on the end user classes.

I was not even expecting so many great and talented programmers to contribute so early in the project. My original prediction is that we would spend the first three months hacking on our own in public with no external contributions, but I have been proved wrong.

You have to realize that the goals of the Mono project are not only the goals of Ximian. Ximian has a set of goals, but every contributor to the project has his own goals: some people want to learn, some people like working on C#, some people want full .NET compatibility on Linux, some people want language independence, some people like to optimize code, some people like low level programming and some people want to compete with Microsoft, some people like the way .NET services work.

So the direction of the project is steered by those that contribute to it. Many people are very interested in having a compatible .NET implementation for non-Windows platforms, and they are contributing towards filling those gaps.

Dare Obasanjo: How does Ximian plan to pay for the costs of developing Mono especially after the failure of a number of recent venture funded, Free Software-based companies like Indrema, Eazel and Great Bridge and the fact that a sizable percentage of the remaining Free Software based companies are on the ropes? Specifically how does Ximian plan to make money at Free Software in general and Mono in particular?

Miguel de Icaza:Ximian provides support and services. We announced a few of our services recently, and more products and services have been on the pipeline for quite a while and would be announced during the next six months.

Those we announced recently are:

• Red Carpet Express: a subscription service for those who want a reliable high speed access to the Red Carpet servers.
• Red Carpet Corporate Connect: We modified our Red Carpet updater technology to help people manage networks of Linux workstations easily and to deploy and maintain custom software packages.
• Support and services for the GNOME desktop and Evolution: Our latest boxed products are our way of selling support services for the various products we ship.

We have also been providing professional services and support for people integrating free software based solutions.

The particular case of Mono is interesting. We are working on Mono to reduce our development costs. A very nice foundation has been laid and submitted to ECMA. Now, with the help of other interested parties that also realize the power of it, we are developing the Mono runtime and development tools to help us improve our productivity.

Indeed, the team working on Mono at Ximian is the same team that provided infrastructural help to the rest of the company in the past.

Dare Obasanjo: It is probably little known in some corners that you once interviewed with Microsoft to work on the SPARC port of Internet Explorer. Considering the impact you have had on the Free Software community since then, have you ever wondered what your life would have been like if you had become a Microsoft employee?

Miguel de Icaza: I have not given it a lot of thought, no. But I did ask everyone I interviewed at Microsoft to open source Internet Explorer, way before Netscape Communicator was Open Sourced ;-)

Thanks to Dare Obasanjo for conducting this interview with [Miguel De Icaza], and sending it on to me. I've posted the interview below here - interesting answers, and very thorough. Well done, Dare.

Interview With Miguel de Icaza Bringing a component architecture to the UNIX platform

Summary
In this interview, Miguel de Icaza, the founder of GNOME and Ximian, talks about UNIX components, Bonobo, Mono and .NET.

By Dare (Carnage4Life) Obasanjo

Dare Obasanjo: You have recently been in the press due to Ximian's announcement that it shall create an Open Source implementation of Microsoft's .NET development platform. Before the recent furor you've been notable for the work you've done with GNOME and Bonobo. Can you give a brief overview of your involvement in Free Software from your earlier projects up to Mono?

Miguel de Icaza: I have been working for the past four years on the GNOME project in various areas: organization of it, libraries and applications. Before that I used to work on the Linux kernel, I worked for a long time on the SPARC port, then on the software raid and some on the Linux/SGI effort. Before that I had written the Midnight Commander file manager.

Dare Obasanjo: In your Let's Make Unix Not Suck series you mention that UNIX development has long been hampered by a lack of code reuse. You specifically mention Brad Cox's concept of Software Integrated Circuits, where software is built primarily by combining reusable components, as a vision of how code reuse should occur. Many have countered your arguments by stating that UNIX is built on the concept of using reusable components to build programs by connecting the output of smaller programs with pipes. What are your opinions of this counter-argument?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, the paper addresses that question in detail. A `pipe' is hardly a complete component system. It is a transport mechanism that is used with some well known protocols (lines, characters, buffers) to process information. The protocol only has a flow of information.

Details are on the paper:
http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html [Dare -- check the section entitled "Unix Components: Small is Beautiful"]

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo was your attempt to create a UNIX component architecture using CORBA as the underlying base. What are the reasons you have decided to focus on Mono instead?

Miguel de Icaza: The GNOME project goal was to bring missing technologies to Unix and make it competitive in the current market place for desktop applications. We also realized early on that language independence was important, and that is why GNOME APIs were coded using a standard that allowed the APIs to be easily wrapped for other languages. Our APIs are available to most programming languages on Unix (Perl, Python, Scheme, C++, Objective-C, Ada).

Later on we decided to use better methods for encapsulating our APIs, and we started to use CORBA to define interfaces to components. We complemented it with policy and a set of standard GNOME interfaces for easily creating reusable, language independent components, controls and compound documents. This technology is known as Bonobo. Interfaces to Bonobo exist for C, Perl, Python, and Java.

CORBA is good when you define coarse interfaces, and most Bonobo interfaces are coarse. The only problem is that Bonobo/CORBA interfaces are not good for small interfaces. For example, an XML parsing Bonobo/CORBA component would be inefficient compared to a C API.

I also wrote at some point:

My interest in .NET comes from the attempts that we have made before in the GNOME project to achieve some of the things .NET does:

• APIs that are exposed to multiple languages.
  
• Cross-language integration.
  
• Contract/interface based programming.
  

And on top of things, I always loved various things about Java. I just did not love the Java combo that you were supposed to give or take.

APIs exposed to many languages we tried by having a common object base (GtkObject) and then following an API contract and a format that would allow others to wrap the APIs easily for their programming language. We even have a Scheme-based definition of the API that is used to generate wrappers on the fly. This solution is suboptimal for many reasons.

The Cross-language integration we have been doing with CORBA, sort of like COM, but with an imposed marshalling penalty. It works pretty well for non inProc components. But for inProc components the story is pretty bad: since there was no CORBA ABI that we could use, the result is so horrible, that I have no words to describe it.

On top of this problem, we have a proliferation of libraries. Most of them follow our coding conventions pretty accurately. Every once in a while they either wont or we would adopt a library written by someone else. This had lead to a mix of libraries that although powerful in result implement multiple programming models, sometimes different allocation and ownership policies and after a while you are dealing with 5 different kind of "ref/unref" behaviours (CORBA local references, CORBA object references on Unknown objects, reference count on object wrappers) and this was turning into a gigantic mess.

We have of course been trying to fix all these issues, and things are looking better (the GNOME 2.x platform does solve many of these issues, but still).

.NET seemed to me like an upgrade for Win32 developers: they had the same problems we had when dealing with APIs that have been designed over many years, a great deal of inconsistency. So I want to have some of this new "fresh air" available for building my own applications.

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo is slightly based on COM and OLE2 as can be gleaned from the fact that Bonobo interfaces are all based on the Bonobo::Unknown interface which provides two basic services: object lifetime management and object functionality-discovery and only contains three methods:

 
        module Bonobo {
                interface Unknown {
                        void ref ();
                        void unref ();
                        Object query_interface (in string repoid);
                };
        };

 

which is very similar to Microsoft's COM IUnknown interface which has the following methods

 
HRESULT QueryInterface(REFIID riid, void **ppvObject);
ULONG AddRef();
ULONG Release();
 

Does the fact that .NET seems to spell the impending death of COM mean that Mono will spell the end of of Bonobo? Similarly considering that .NET plans to have semi-transparent COM/.NET interoperability, is there a similar plan for Mono and Bonobo?

Miguel de Icaza: Definetly. Mono will have to interoperate with a number of systems out there including Bonobo on GNOME.

Dare Obasanjo: A number of parties have claimed that Microsoft's NET platform is a poor clone of the Java(TM) platform. If this is the case why hasn't Ximian decided to clone or use the Java platform instead of cloning Microsoft's .NET platform?

Miguel de Icaza: We were interested in the CLR because it solves a problem that we face every day. The Java VM did not solve this problem.

Dare Obasanjo: On the Mono Rationale page it is pointed out that Microsoft's .NET strategy encompasses many efforts including

• The .NET development platform, a new platform for writing software.
• Web services.
• Microsoft Server Applications.
• New tools that use the new development platform.
• Hailstorm, the Passport centralized single-signon system that is being integrated into Windows XP.

and you point out that Mono is merely an implementation of of the .NET development platform. Is there any plan by Ximian to implement other parts of the .NET strategy?

Miguel de Icaza: Not at this point. We have a commitment to develop currently:

• A CLI runtime with a JITer for x86 CPUs.
• A C# compiler.
• A class library

All of the above with the help of external contributors. You have to understand that this is a big undertaking and that without the various people who have donated their time, expertise and code to the project we would not even have a chance of delivering a complete product any time soon.

We are doing this for selfish reasons: we want a better way of developing Linux and Unix applications ourselves and we see the CLI as such a thing.

That being said, Ximian being in the services and support business would not mind extending its effort towards making the Mono project tackle other things like porting to new platforms, or improving the JIT engine, or focusing on a particular area of Mono.

But other than this, we do not have plans at this point to go beyond the three basic announcements that we have made.

Dare Obasanjo: There are a number of other projects that are implementing other parts of .NET on Free platforms that seem to be have friction with the Mono project. Section 7.2 of Portable.NET's FAQ seems to indicate they have had conflict with the Mono project as does the banning of Martin Coxall from the dotGNU mailing list. What are your thoughts on this?

Miguel de Icaza: I did not pay attention to the actual details of the banning of Martin from the DotGNU mailing lists. Usenet and Internet mailing lists are a culture of their own and I think this is just another instance of what usually happens on the net. It is definitely sad.

The focus of Mono and .NET is slightly different: we are writing as much as we can in a high level language like C#, and writing reusable pieces of software out of it. Portable.NET is being written in C.

Dare Obasanjo: There have been conflicting reports about Ximian's relationship with Microsoft. On one hand there are reports that seem to indicate that there may be licensing problems between the license that will govern .NET and the GPL. On the other hand there is an indication that some within Microsoft are enthusiastic about Mono. So exactly what is Ximian's current relationship is with Microsoft and what will be done to ensure that Mono does not violate Microsoft's licenses on .NET if they turn out to be restrictive?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, for one we are writing everything from scratch.

We are trying to stay on the safe side regarding patents. That means that we implement things in a way that has been used in the past and we are not doing tremendously elaborate or efficient things in Mono yet. We are still very far from that. But just using existing technologies and techniques.

Dare Obasanjo: It has been pointed out that Sun retracted Java(TM) from standards processes at least twice, will the Mono project continue if .NET stops being an open standard for any reason?

Miguel de Icaza: The upgrade on our development platform has a value independently of whether it is a standard or not. The fact that Microsoft has submitted its specifications to a standards body has helped, since people who know about these problems have looked at the problem and can pin point problems for interoperability.

Dare Obasanjo: Similarly what happens if Dan Kusnetzky's prediction comes true and Microsoft changes the .NET APIs in the future? Will the Mono project play catchup or will it become an incompatible implementation of .NET on UNIX platforms?

Miguel de Icaza: Microsoft is remarkably good at keeping their APIs backwards compatible (and this is one of the reasons I think they have had so much success as a platform vendor). So I think that this would not be a problem.

Now, even if this was a problem, it is always possible to have multiple implementations of the same APIs and use the correct one by choosing at runtime the proper "assembly". Assemblies are a new way of dealing with software bundles and the files that are part of an assembly can be cryptographically checksummed and their APIs programmatically tested for compatibility. [Dare -- Description of Assemblies from MSDN gloassary]

So even if they deviate from the initial release, it would be possible to provide assemblies that are backwards compatible (we can both do that: Microsoft and ourselves)

Dare Obasanjo: Looking at the Mono class status page I noticed that a large number of .NET class libraries are not being implemented in Mono such as WinForms, ADO.NET, Web Services, XML schemas, reflection and a number of others. This means that it is very likely that when Mono and .NET are finally released apps written for .NET will not be portable to Mono. Is there any plan to rectify this in the future or is creating a portable .NET platform not a goal of the Mono project? Similarly what are the short and long term goals of the Mono project?

Miguel de Icaza: The status web page reflects the classes that people have "requested" to work on. The status web page is just a way of saying `Hey, I am working on this class as of this date' to avoid code duplication. If someone registers their interest in working on something and they do not do something after some period of time, then we can reclaim the class.

We are on the very early stages of the project, so you do see more work going on the foundational classes than on the end user classes.

I was not even expecting so many great and talented programmers to contribute so early in the project. My original prediction is that we would spend the first three months hacking on our own in public with no external contributions, but I have been proved wrong.

You have to realize that the goals of the Mono project are not only the goals of Ximian. Ximian has a set of goals, but every contributor to the project has his own goals: some people want to learn, some people like working on C#, some people want full .NET compatibility on Linux, some people want language independence, some people like to optimize code, some people like low level programming and some people want to compete with Microsoft, some people like the way .NET services work.

So the direction of the project is steered by those that contribute to it. Many people are very interested in having a compatible .NET implementation for non-Windows platforms, and they are contributing towards filling those gaps.

Dare Obasanjo: How does Ximian plan to pay for the costs of developing Mono especially after the failure of a number of recent venture funded, Free Software-based companies like Indrema, Eazel and Great Bridge and the fact that a sizable percentage of the remaining Free Software based companies are on the ropes? Specifically how does Ximian plan to make money at Free Software in general and Mono in particular?

Miguel de Icaza:Ximian provides support and services. We announced a few of our services recently, and more products and services have been on the pipeline for quite a while and would be announced during the next six months.

Those we announced recently are:

• Red Carpet Express: a subscription service for those who want a reliable high speed access to the Red Carpet servers.
• Red Carpet Corporate Connect: We modified our Red Carpet updater technology to help people manage networks of Linux workstations easily and to deploy and maintain custom software packages.
• Support and services for the GNOME desktop and Evolution: Our latest boxed products are our way of selling support services for the various products we ship.

We have also been providing professional services and support for people integrating free software based solutions.

The particular case of Mono is interesting. We are working on Mono to reduce our development costs. A very nice foundation has been laid and submitted to ECMA. Now, with the help of other interested parties that also realize the power of it, we are developing the Mono runtime and development tools to help us improve our productivity.

Indeed, the team working on Mono at Ximian is the same team that provided infrastructural help to the rest of the company in the past.

Dare Obasanjo: It is probably little known in some corners that you once interviewed with Microsoft to work on the SPARC port of Internet Explorer. Considering the impact you have had on the Free Software community since then, have you ever wondered what your life would have been like if you had become a Microsoft employee?

Miguel de Icaza: I have not given it a lot of thought, no. But I did ask everyone I interviewed at Microsoft to open source Internet Explorer, way before Netscape Communicator was Open Sourced ;-)

Thanks to Dare Obasanjo for conducting this interview with [Miguel De Icaza], and sending it on to me. I've posted the interview below here - interesting answers, and very thorough. Well done, Dare.

Interview With Miguel de Icaza Bringing a component architecture to the UNIX platform

Summary
In this interview, Miguel de Icaza, the founder of GNOME and Ximian, talks about UNIX components, Bonobo, Mono and .NET.

By Dare (Carnage4Life) Obasanjo

Dare Obasanjo: You have recently been in the press due to Ximian's announcement that it shall create an Open Source implementation of Microsoft's .NET development platform. Before the recent furor you've been notable for the work you've done with GNOME and Bonobo. Can you give a brief overview of your involvement in Free Software from your earlier projects up to Mono?

Miguel de Icaza: I have been working for the past four years on the GNOME project in various areas: organization of it, libraries and applications. Before that I used to work on the Linux kernel, I worked for a long time on the SPARC port, then on the software raid and some on the Linux/SGI effort. Before that I had written the Midnight Commander file manager.

Dare Obasanjo: In your Let's Make Unix Not Suck series you mention that UNIX development has long been hampered by a lack of code reuse. You specifically mention Brad Cox's concept of Software Integrated Circuits, where software is built primarily by combining reusable components, as a vision of how code reuse should occur. Many have countered your arguments by stating that UNIX is built on the concept of using reusable components to build programs by connecting the output of smaller programs with pipes. What are your opinions of this counter-argument?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, the paper addresses that question in detail. A `pipe' is hardly a complete component system. It is a transport mechanism that is used with some well known protocols (lines, characters, buffers) to process information. The protocol only has a flow of information.

Details are on the paper:
http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html [Dare -- check the section entitled "Unix Components: Small is Beautiful"]

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo was your attempt to create a UNIX component architecture using CORBA as the underlying base. What are the reasons you have decided to focus on Mono instead?

Miguel de Icaza: The GNOME project goal was to bring missing technologies to Unix and make it competitive in the current market place for desktop applications. We also realized early on that language independence was important, and that is why GNOME APIs were coded using a standard that allowed the APIs to be easily wrapped for other languages. Our APIs are available to most programming languages on Unix (Perl, Python, Scheme, C++, Objective-C, Ada).

Later on we decided to use better methods for encapsulating our APIs, and we started to use CORBA to define interfaces to components. We complemented it with policy and a set of standard GNOME interfaces for easily creating reusable, language independent components, controls and compound documents. This technology is known as Bonobo. Interfaces to Bonobo exist for C, Perl, Python, and Java.

CORBA is good when you define coarse interfaces, and most Bonobo interfaces are coarse. The only problem is that Bonobo/CORBA interfaces are not good for small interfaces. For example, an XML parsing Bonobo/CORBA component would be inefficient compared to a C API.

I also wrote at some point:

My interest in .NET comes from the attempts that we have made before in the GNOME project to achieve some of the things .NET does:

• APIs that are exposed to multiple languages.
  
• Cross-language integration.
  
• Contract/interface based programming.
  

And on top of things, I always loved various things about Java. I just did not love the Java combo that you were supposed to give or take.

APIs exposed to many languages we tried by having a common object base (GtkObject) and then following an API contract and a format that would allow others to wrap the APIs easily for their programming language. We even have a Scheme-based definition of the API that is used to generate wrappers on the fly. This solution is suboptimal for many reasons.

The Cross-language integration we have been doing with CORBA, sort of like COM, but with an imposed marshalling penalty. It works pretty well for non inProc components. But for inProc components the story is pretty bad: since there was no CORBA ABI that we could use, the result is so horrible, that I have no words to describe it.

On top of this problem, we have a proliferation of libraries. Most of them follow our coding conventions pretty accurately. Every once in a while they either wont or we would adopt a library written by someone else. This had lead to a mix of libraries that although powerful in result implement multiple programming models, sometimes different allocation and ownership policies and after a while you are dealing with 5 different kind of "ref/unref" behaviours (CORBA local references, CORBA object references on Unknown objects, reference count on object wrappers) and this was turning into a gigantic mess.

We have of course been trying to fix all these issues, and things are looking better (the GNOME 2.x platform does solve many of these issues, but still).

.NET seemed to me like an upgrade for Win32 developers: they had the same problems we had when dealing with APIs that have been designed over many years, a great deal of inconsistency. So I want to have some of this new "fresh air" available for building my own applications.

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo is slightly based on COM and OLE2 as can be gleaned from the fact that Bonobo interfaces are all based on the Bonobo::Unknown interface which provides two basic services: object lifetime management and object functionality-discovery and only contains three methods:

 
        module Bonobo {
                interface Unknown {
                        void ref ();
                        void unref ();
                        Object query_interface (in string repoid);
                };
        };

 

which is very similar to Microsoft's COM IUnknown interface which has the following methods

 
HRESULT QueryInterface(REFIID riid, void **ppvObject);
ULONG AddRef();
ULONG Release();
 

Does the fact that .NET seems to spell the impending death of COM mean that Mono will spell the end of of Bonobo? Similarly considering that .NET plans to have semi-transparent COM/.NET interoperability, is there a similar plan for Mono and Bonobo?

Miguel de Icaza: Definetly. Mono will have to interoperate with a number of systems out there including Bonobo on GNOME.

Dare Obasanjo: A number of parties have claimed that Microsoft's NET platform is a poor clone of the Java(TM) platform. If this is the case why hasn't Ximian decided to clone or use the Java platform instead of cloning Microsoft's .NET platform?

Miguel de Icaza: We were interested in the CLR because it solves a problem that we face every day. The Java VM did not solve this problem.

Dare Obasanjo: On the Mono Rationale page it is pointed out that Microsoft's .NET strategy encompasses many efforts including

• The .NET development platform, a new platform for writing software.
• Web services.
• Microsoft Server Applications.
• New tools that use the new development platform.
• Hailstorm, the Passport centralized single-signon system that is being integrated into Windows XP.

and you point out that Mono is merely an implementation of of the .NET development platform. Is there any plan by Ximian to implement other parts of the .NET strategy?

Miguel de Icaza: Not at this point. We have a commitment to develop currently:

• A CLI runtime with a JITer for x86 CPUs.
• A C# compiler.
• A class library

All of the above with the help of external contributors. You have to understand that this is a big undertaking and that without the various people who have donated their time, expertise and code to the project we would not even have a chance of delivering a complete product any time soon.

We are doing this for selfish reasons: we want a better way of developing Linux and Unix applications ourselves and we see the CLI as such a thing.

That being said, Ximian being in the services and support business would not mind extending its effort towards making the Mono project tackle other things like porting to new platforms, or improving the JIT engine, or focusing on a particular area of Mono.

But other than this, we do not have plans at this point to go beyond the three basic announcements that we have made.

Dare Obasanjo: There are a number of other projects that are implementing other parts of .NET on Free platforms that seem to be have friction with the Mono project. Section 7.2 of Portable.NET's FAQ seems to indicate they have had conflict with the Mono project as does the banning of Martin Coxall from the dotGNU mailing list. What are your thoughts on this?

Miguel de Icaza: I did not pay attention to the actual details of the banning of Martin from the DotGNU mailing lists. Usenet and Internet mailing lists are a culture of their own and I think this is just another instance of what usually happens on the net. It is definitely sad.

The focus of Mono and .NET is slightly different: we are writing as much as we can in a high level language like C#, and writing reusable pieces of software out of it. Portable.NET is being written in C.

Dare Obasanjo: There have been conflicting reports about Ximian's relationship with Microsoft. On one hand there are reports that seem to indicate that there may be licensing problems between the license that will govern .NET and the GPL. On the other hand there is an indication that some within Microsoft are enthusiastic about Mono. So exactly what is Ximian's current relationship is with Microsoft and what will be done to ensure that Mono does not violate Microsoft's licenses on .NET if they turn out to be restrictive?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, for one we are writing everything from scratch.

We are trying to stay on the safe side regarding patents. That means that we implement things in a way that has been used in the past and we are not doing tremendously elaborate or efficient things in Mono yet. We are still very far from that. But just using existing technologies and techniques.

Dare Obasanjo: It has been pointed out that Sun retracted Java(TM) from standards processes at least twice, will the Mono project continue if .NET stops being an open standard for any reason?

Miguel de Icaza: The upgrade on our development platform has a value independently of whether it is a standard or not. The fact that Microsoft has submitted its specifications to a standards body has helped, since people who know about these problems have looked at the problem and can pin point problems for interoperability.

Dare Obasanjo: Similarly what happens if Dan Kusnetzky's prediction comes true and Microsoft changes the .NET APIs in the future? Will the Mono project play catchup or will it become an incompatible implementation of .NET on UNIX platforms?

Miguel de Icaza: Microsoft is remarkably good at keeping their APIs backwards compatible (and this is one of the reasons I think they have had so much success as a platform vendor). So I think that this would not be a problem.

Now, even if this was a problem, it is always possible to have multiple implementations of the same APIs and use the correct one by choosing at runtime the proper "assembly". Assemblies are a new way of dealing with software bundles and the files that are part of an assembly can be cryptographically checksummed and their APIs programmatically tested for compatibility. [Dare -- Description of Assemblies from MSDN gloassary]

So even if they deviate from the initial release, it would be possible to provide assemblies that are backwards compatible (we can both do that: Microsoft and ourselves)

Dare Obasanjo: Looking at the Mono class status page I noticed that a large number of .NET class libraries are not being implemented in Mono such as WinForms, ADO.NET, Web Services, XML schemas, reflection and a number of others. This means that it is very likely that when Mono and .NET are finally released apps written for .NET will not be portable to Mono. Is there any plan to rectify this in the future or is creating a portable .NET platform not a goal of the Mono project? Similarly what are the short and long term goals of the Mono project?

Miguel de Icaza: The status web page reflects the classes that people have "requested" to work on. The status web page is just a way of saying `Hey, I am working on this class as of this date' to avoid code duplication. If someone registers their interest in working on something and they do not do something after some period of time, then we can reclaim the class.

We are on the very early stages of the project, so you do see more work going on the foundational classes than on the end user classes.

I was not even expecting so many great and talented programmers to contribute so early in the project. My original prediction is that we would spend the first three months hacking on our own in public with no external contributions, but I have been proved wrong.

You have to realize that the goals of the Mono project are not only the goals of Ximian. Ximian has a set of goals, but every contributor to the project has his own goals: some people want to learn, some people like working on C#, some people want full .NET compatibility on Linux, some people want language independence, some people like to optimize code, some people like low level programming and some people want to compete with Microsoft, some people like the way .NET services work.

So the direction of the project is steered by those that contribute to it. Many people are very interested in having a compatible .NET implementation for non-Windows platforms, and they are contributing towards filling those gaps.

Dare Obasanjo: How does Ximian plan to pay for the costs of developing Mono especially after the failure of a number of recent venture funded, Free Software-based companies like Indrema, Eazel and Great Bridge and the fact that a sizable percentage of the remaining Free Software based companies are on the ropes? Specifically how does Ximian plan to make money at Free Software in general and Mono in particular?

Miguel de Icaza:Ximian provides support and services. We announced a few of our services recently, and more products and services have been on the pipeline for quite a while and would be announced during the next six months.

Those we announced recently are:

• Red Carpet Express: a subscription service for those who want a reliable high speed access to the Red Carpet servers.
• Red Carpet Corporate Connect: We modified our Red Carpet updater technology to help people manage networks of Linux workstations easily and to deploy and maintain custom software packages.
• Support and services for the GNOME desktop and Evolution: Our latest boxed products are our way of selling support services for the various products we ship.

We have also been providing professional services and support for people integrating free software based solutions.

The particular case of Mono is interesting. We are working on Mono to reduce our development costs. A very nice foundation has been laid and submitted to ECMA. Now, with the help of other interested parties that also realize the power of it, we are developing the Mono runtime and development tools to help us improve our productivity.

Indeed, the team working on Mono at Ximian is the same team that provided infrastructural help to the rest of the company in the past.

Dare Obasanjo: It is probably little known in some corners that you once interviewed with Microsoft to work on the SPARC port of Internet Explorer. Considering the impact you have had on the Free Software community since then, have you ever wondered what your life would have been like if you had become a Microsoft employee?

Miguel de Icaza: I have not given it a lot of thought, no. But I did ask everyone I interviewed at Microsoft to open source Internet Explorer, way before Netscape Communicator was Open Sourced ;-)

Thanks to Dare Obasanjo for conducting this interview with [Miguel De Icaza], and sending it on to me. I've posted the interview below here - interesting answers, and very thorough. Well done, Dare.

Interview With Miguel de Icaza Bringing a component architecture to the UNIX platform

Summary
In this interview, Miguel de Icaza, the founder of GNOME and Ximian, talks about UNIX components, Bonobo, Mono and .NET.

By Dare (Carnage4Life) Obasanjo

Dare Obasanjo: You have recently been in the press due to Ximian's announcement that it shall create an Open Source implementation of Microsoft's .NET development platform. Before the recent furor you've been notable for the work you've done with GNOME and Bonobo. Can you give a brief overview of your involvement in Free Software from your earlier projects up to Mono?

Miguel de Icaza: I have been working for the past four years on the GNOME project in various areas: organization of it, libraries and applications. Before that I used to work on the Linux kernel, I worked for a long time on the SPARC port, then on the software raid and some on the Linux/SGI effort. Before that I had written the Midnight Commander file manager.

Dare Obasanjo: In your Let's Make Unix Not Suck series you mention that UNIX development has long been hampered by a lack of code reuse. You specifically mention Brad Cox's concept of Software Integrated Circuits, where software is built primarily by combining reusable components, as a vision of how code reuse should occur. Many have countered your arguments by stating that UNIX is built on the concept of using reusable components to build programs by connecting the output of smaller programs with pipes. What are your opinions of this counter-argument?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, the paper addresses that question in detail. A `pipe' is hardly a complete component system. It is a transport mechanism that is used with some well known protocols (lines, characters, buffers) to process information. The protocol only has a flow of information.

Details are on the paper:
http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html [Dare -- check the section entitled "Unix Components: Small is Beautiful"]

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo was your attempt to create a UNIX component architecture using CORBA as the underlying base. What are the reasons you have decided to focus on Mono instead?

Miguel de Icaza: The GNOME project goal was to bring missing technologies to Unix and make it competitive in the current market place for desktop applications. We also realized early on that language independence was important, and that is why GNOME APIs were coded using a standard that allowed the APIs to be easily wrapped for other languages. Our APIs are available to most programming languages on Unix (Perl, Python, Scheme, C++, Objective-C, Ada).

Later on we decided to use better methods for encapsulating our APIs, and we started to use CORBA to define interfaces to components. We complemented it with policy and a set of standard GNOME interfaces for easily creating reusable, language independent components, controls and compound documents. This technology is known as Bonobo. Interfaces to Bonobo exist for C, Perl, Python, and Java.

CORBA is good when you define coarse interfaces, and most Bonobo interfaces are coarse. The only problem is that Bonobo/CORBA interfaces are not good for small interfaces. For example, an XML parsing Bonobo/CORBA component would be inefficient compared to a C API.

I also wrote at some point:

My interest in .NET comes from the attempts that we have made before in the GNOME project to achieve some of the things .NET does:

• APIs that are exposed to multiple languages.
  
• Cross-language integration.
  
• Contract/interface based programming.
  

And on top of things, I always loved various things about Java. I just did not love the Java combo that you were supposed to give or take.

APIs exposed to many languages we tried by having a common object base (GtkObject) and then following an API contract and a format that would allow others to wrap the APIs easily for their programming language. We even have a Scheme-based definition of the API that is used to generate wrappers on the fly. This solution is suboptimal for many reasons.

The Cross-language integration we have been doing with CORBA, sort of like COM, but with an imposed marshalling penalty. It works pretty well for non inProc components. But for inProc components the story is pretty bad: since there was no CORBA ABI that we could use, the result is so horrible, that I have no words to describe it.

On top of this problem, we have a proliferation of libraries. Most of them follow our coding conventions pretty accurately. Every once in a while they either wont or we would adopt a library written by someone else. This had lead to a mix of libraries that although powerful in result implement multiple programming models, sometimes different allocation and ownership policies and after a while you are dealing with 5 different kind of "ref/unref" behaviours (CORBA local references, CORBA object references on Unknown objects, reference count on object wrappers) and this was turning into a gigantic mess.

We have of course been trying to fix all these issues, and things are looking better (the GNOME 2.x platform does solve many of these issues, but still).

.NET seemed to me like an upgrade for Win32 developers: they had the same problems we had when dealing with APIs that have been designed over many years, a great deal of inconsistency. So I want to have some of this new "fresh air" available for building my own applications.

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo is slightly based on COM and OLE2 as can be gleaned from the fact that Bonobo interfaces are all based on the Bonobo::Unknown interface which provides two basic services: object lifetime management and object functionality-discovery and only contains three methods:

 
        module Bonobo {
                interface Unknown {
                        void ref ();
                        void unref ();
                        Object query_interface (in string repoid);
                };
        };

 

which is very similar to Microsoft's COM IUnknown interface which has the following methods

 
HRESULT QueryInterface(REFIID riid, void **ppvObject);
ULONG AddRef();
ULONG Release();
 

Does the fact that .NET seems to spell the impending death of COM mean that Mono will spell the end of of Bonobo? Similarly considering that .NET plans to have semi-transparent COM/.NET interoperability, is there a similar plan for Mono and Bonobo?

Miguel de Icaza: Definetly. Mono will have to interoperate with a number of systems out there including Bonobo on GNOME.

Dare Obasanjo: A number of parties have claimed that Microsoft's NET platform is a poor clone of the Java(TM) platform. If this is the case why hasn't Ximian decided to clone or use the Java platform instead of cloning Microsoft's .NET platform?

Miguel de Icaza: We were interested in the CLR because it solves a problem that we face every day. The Java VM did not solve this problem.

Dare Obasanjo: On the Mono Rationale page it is pointed out that Microsoft's .NET strategy encompasses many efforts including

• The .NET development platform, a new platform for writing software.
• Web services.
• Microsoft Server Applications.
• New tools that use the new development platform.
• Hailstorm, the Passport centralized single-signon system that is being integrated into Windows XP.

and you point out that Mono is merely an implementation of of the .NET development platform. Is there any plan by Ximian to implement other parts of the .NET strategy?

Miguel de Icaza: Not at this point. We have a commitment to develop currently:

• A CLI runtime with a JITer for x86 CPUs.
• A C# compiler.
• A class library

All of the above with the help of external contributors. You have to understand that this is a big undertaking and that without the various people who have donated their time, expertise and code to the project we would not even have a chance of delivering a complete product any time soon.

We are doing this for selfish reasons: we want a better way of developing Linux and Unix applications ourselves and we see the CLI as such a thing.

That being said, Ximian being in the services and support business would not mind extending its effort towards making the Mono project tackle other things like porting to new platforms, or improving the JIT engine, or focusing on a particular area of Mono.

But other than this, we do not have plans at this point to go beyond the three basic announcements that we have made.

Dare Obasanjo: There are a number of other projects that are implementing other parts of .NET on Free platforms that seem to be have friction with the Mono project. Section 7.2 of Portable.NET's FAQ seems to indicate they have had conflict with the Mono project as does the banning of Martin Coxall from the dotGNU mailing list. What are your thoughts on this?

Miguel de Icaza: I did not pay attention to the actual details of the banning of Martin from the DotGNU mailing lists. Usenet and Internet mailing lists are a culture of their own and I think this is just another instance of what usually happens on the net. It is definitely sad.

The focus of Mono and .NET is slightly different: we are writing as much as we can in a high level language like C#, and writing reusable pieces of software out of it. Portable.NET is being written in C.

Dare Obasanjo: There have been conflicting reports about Ximian's relationship with Microsoft. On one hand there are reports that seem to indicate that there may be licensing problems between the license that will govern .NET and the GPL. On the other hand there is an indication that some within Microsoft are enthusiastic about Mono. So exactly what is Ximian's current relationship is with Microsoft and what will be done to ensure that Mono does not violate Microsoft's licenses on .NET if they turn out to be restrictive?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, for one we are writing everything from scratch.

We are trying to stay on the safe side regarding patents. That means that we implement things in a way that has been used in the past and we are not doing tremendously elaborate or efficient things in Mono yet. We are still very far from that. But just using existing technologies and techniques.

Dare Obasanjo: It has been pointed out that Sun retracted Java(TM) from standards processes at least twice, will the Mono project continue if .NET stops being an open standard for any reason?

Miguel de Icaza: The upgrade on our development platform has a value independently of whether it is a standard or not. The fact that Microsoft has submitted its specifications to a standards body has helped, since people who know about these problems have looked at the problem and can pin point problems for interoperability.

Dare Obasanjo: Similarly what happens if Dan Kusnetzky's prediction comes true and Microsoft changes the .NET APIs in the future? Will the Mono project play catchup or will it become an incompatible implementation of .NET on UNIX platforms?

Miguel de Icaza: Microsoft is remarkably good at keeping their APIs backwards compatible (and this is one of the reasons I think they have had so much success as a platform vendor). So I think that this would not be a problem.

Now, even if this was a problem, it is always possible to have multiple implementations of the same APIs and use the correct one by choosing at runtime the proper "assembly". Assemblies are a new way of dealing with software bundles and the files that are part of an assembly can be cryptographically checksummed and their APIs programmatically tested for compatibility. [Dare -- Description of Assemblies from MSDN gloassary]

So even if they deviate from the initial release, it would be possible to provide assemblies that are backwards compatible (we can both do that: Microsoft and ourselves)

Dare Obasanjo: Looking at the Mono class status page I noticed that a large number of .NET class libraries are not being implemented in Mono such as WinForms, ADO.NET, Web Services, XML schemas, reflection and a number of others. This means that it is very likely that when Mono and .NET are finally released apps written for .NET will not be portable to Mono. Is there any plan to rectify this in the future or is creating a portable .NET platform not a goal of the Mono project? Similarly what are the short and long term goals of the Mono project?

Miguel de Icaza: The status web page reflects the classes that people have "requested" to work on. The status web page is just a way of saying `Hey, I am working on this class as of this date' to avoid code duplication. If someone registers their interest in working on something and they do not do something after some period of time, then we can reclaim the class.

We are on the very early stages of the project, so you do see more work going on the foundational classes than on the end user classes.

I was not even expecting so many great and talented programmers to contribute so early in the project. My original prediction is that we would spend the first three months hacking on our own in public with no external contributions, but I have been proved wrong.

You have to realize that the goals of the Mono project are not only the goals of Ximian. Ximian has a set of goals, but every contributor to the project has his own goals: some people want to learn, some people like working on C#, some people want full .NET compatibility on Linux, some people want language independence, some people like to optimize code, some people like low level programming and some people want to compete with Microsoft, some people like the way .NET services work.

So the direction of the project is steered by those that contribute to it. Many people are very interested in having a compatible .NET implementation for non-Windows platforms, and they are contributing towards filling those gaps.

Dare Obasanjo: How does Ximian plan to pay for the costs of developing Mono especially after the failure of a number of recent venture funded, Free Software-based companies like Indrema, Eazel and Great Bridge and the fact that a sizable percentage of the remaining Free Software based companies are on the ropes? Specifically how does Ximian plan to make money at Free Software in general and Mono in particular?

Miguel de Icaza:Ximian provides support and services. We announced a few of our services recently, and more products and services have been on the pipeline for quite a while and would be announced during the next six months.

Those we announced recently are:

• Red Carpet Express: a subscription service for those who want a reliable high speed access to the Red Carpet servers.
• Red Carpet Corporate Connect: We modified our Red Carpet updater technology to help people manage networks of Linux workstations easily and to deploy and maintain custom software packages.
• Support and services for the GNOME desktop and Evolution: Our latest boxed products are our way of selling support services for the various products we ship.

We have also been providing professional services and support for people integrating free software based solutions.

The particular case of Mono is interesting. We are working on Mono to reduce our development costs. A very nice foundation has been laid and submitted to ECMA. Now, with the help of other interested parties that also realize the power of it, we are developing the Mono runtime and development tools to help us improve our productivity.

Indeed, the team working on Mono at Ximian is the same team that provided infrastructural help to the rest of the company in the past.

Dare Obasanjo: It is probably little known in some corners that you once interviewed with Microsoft to work on the SPARC port of Internet Explorer. Considering the impact you have had on the Free Software community since then, have you ever wondered what your life would have been like if you had become a Microsoft employee?

Miguel de Icaza: I have not given it a lot of thought, no. But I did ask everyone I interviewed at Microsoft to open source Internet Explorer, way before Netscape Communicator was Open Sourced ;-)

Thanks to Dare Obasanjo for conducting this interview with [Miguel De Icaza], and sending it on to me. I've posted the interview below here - interesting answers, and very thorough. Well done, Dare.

Interview With Miguel de Icaza Bringing a component architecture to the UNIX platform

Summary
In this interview, Miguel de Icaza, the founder of GNOME and Ximian, talks about UNIX components, Bonobo, Mono and .NET.

By Dare (Carnage4Life) Obasanjo

Dare Obasanjo: You have recently been in the press due to Ximian's announcement that it shall create an Open Source implementation of Microsoft's .NET development platform. Before the recent furor you've been notable for the work you've done with GNOME and Bonobo. Can you give a brief overview of your involvement in Free Software from your earlier projects up to Mono?

Miguel de Icaza: I have been working for the past four years on the GNOME project in various areas: organization of it, libraries and applications. Before that I used to work on the Linux kernel, I worked for a long time on the SPARC port, then on the software raid and some on the Linux/SGI effort. Before that I had written the Midnight Commander file manager.

Dare Obasanjo: In your Let's Make Unix Not Suck series you mention that UNIX development has long been hampered by a lack of code reuse. You specifically mention Brad Cox's concept of Software Integrated Circuits, where software is built primarily by combining reusable components, as a vision of how code reuse should occur. Many have countered your arguments by stating that UNIX is built on the concept of using reusable components to build programs by connecting the output of smaller programs with pipes. What are your opinions of this counter-argument?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, the paper addresses that question in detail. A `pipe' is hardly a complete component system. It is a transport mechanism that is used with some well known protocols (lines, characters, buffers) to process information. The protocol only has a flow of information.

Details are on the paper:
http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html [Dare -- check the section entitled "Unix Components: Small is Beautiful"]

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo was your attempt to create a UNIX component architecture using CORBA as the underlying base. What are the reasons you have decided to focus on Mono instead?

Miguel de Icaza: The GNOME project goal was to bring missing technologies to Unix and make it competitive in the current market place for desktop applications. We also realized early on that language independence was important, and that is why GNOME APIs were coded using a standard that allowed the APIs to be easily wrapped for other languages. Our APIs are available to most programming languages on Unix (Perl, Python, Scheme, C++, Objective-C, Ada).

Later on we decided to use better methods for encapsulating our APIs, and we started to use CORBA to define interfaces to components. We complemented it with policy and a set of standard GNOME interfaces for easily creating reusable, language independent components, controls and compound documents. This technology is known as Bonobo. Interfaces to Bonobo exist for C, Perl, Python, and Java.

CORBA is good when you define coarse interfaces, and most Bonobo interfaces are coarse. The only problem is that Bonobo/CORBA interfaces are not good for small interfaces. For example, an XML parsing Bonobo/CORBA component would be inefficient compared to a C API.

I also wrote at some point:

My interest in .NET comes from the attempts that we have made before in the GNOME project to achieve some of the things .NET does:

• APIs that are exposed to multiple languages.
  
• Cross-language integration.
  
• Contract/interface based programming.
  

And on top of things, I always loved various things about Java. I just did not love the Java combo that you were supposed to give or take.

APIs exposed to many languages we tried by having a common object base (GtkObject) and then following an API contract and a format that would allow others to wrap the APIs easily for their programming language. We even have a Scheme-based definition of the API that is used to generate wrappers on the fly. This solution is suboptimal for many reasons.

The Cross-language integration we have been doing with CORBA, sort of like COM, but with an imposed marshalling penalty. It works pretty well for non inProc components. But for inProc components the story is pretty bad: since there was no CORBA ABI that we could use, the result is so horrible, that I have no words to describe it.

On top of this problem, we have a proliferation of libraries. Most of them follow our coding conventions pretty accurately. Every once in a while they either wont or we would adopt a library written by someone else. This had lead to a mix of libraries that although powerful in result implement multiple programming models, sometimes different allocation and ownership policies and after a while you are dealing with 5 different kind of "ref/unref" behaviours (CORBA local references, CORBA object references on Unknown objects, reference count on object wrappers) and this was turning into a gigantic mess.

We have of course been trying to fix all these issues, and things are looking better (the GNOME 2.x platform does solve many of these issues, but still).

.NET seemed to me like an upgrade for Win32 developers: they had the same problems we had when dealing with APIs that have been designed over many years, a great deal of inconsistency. So I want to have some of this new "fresh air" available for building my own applications.

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo is slightly based on COM and OLE2 as can be gleaned from the fact that Bonobo interfaces are all based on the Bonobo::Unknown interface which provides two basic services: object lifetime management and object functionality-discovery and only contains three methods:

 
        module Bonobo {
                interface Unknown {
                        void ref ();
                        void unref ();
                        Object query_interface (in string repoid);
                };
        };

 

which is very similar to Microsoft's COM IUnknown interface which has the following methods

 
HRESULT QueryInterface(REFIID riid, void **ppvObject);
ULONG AddRef();
ULONG Release();
 

Does the fact that .NET seems to spell the impending death of COM mean that Mono will spell the end of of Bonobo? Similarly considering that .NET plans to have semi-transparent COM/.NET interoperability, is there a similar plan for Mono and Bonobo?

Miguel de Icaza: Definetly. Mono will have to interoperate with a number of systems out there including Bonobo on GNOME.

Dare Obasanjo: A number of parties have claimed that Microsoft's NET platform is a poor clone of the Java(TM) platform. If this is the case why hasn't Ximian decided to clone or use the Java platform instead of cloning Microsoft's .NET platform?

Miguel de Icaza: We were interested in the CLR because it solves a problem that we face every day. The Java VM did not solve this problem.

Dare Obasanjo: On the Mono Rationale page it is pointed out that Microsoft's .NET strategy encompasses many efforts including

• The .NET development platform, a new platform for writing software.
• Web services.
• Microsoft Server Applications.
• New tools that use the new development platform.
• Hailstorm, the Passport centralized single-signon system that is being integrated into Windows XP.

and you point out that Mono is merely an implementation of of the .NET development platform. Is there any plan by Ximian to implement other parts of the .NET strategy?

Miguel de Icaza: Not at this point. We have a commitment to develop currently:

• A CLI runtime with a JITer for x86 CPUs.
• A C# compiler.
• A class library

All of the above with the help of external contributors. You have to understand that this is a big undertaking and that without the various people who have donated their time, expertise and code to the project we would not even have a chance of delivering a complete product any time soon.

We are doing this for selfish reasons: we want a better way of developing Linux and Unix applications ourselves and we see the CLI as such a thing.

That being said, Ximian being in the services and support business would not mind extending its effort towards making the Mono project tackle other things like porting to new platforms, or improving the JIT engine, or focusing on a particular area of Mono.

But other than this, we do not have plans at this point to go beyond the three basic announcements that we have made.

Dare Obasanjo: There are a number of other projects that are implementing other parts of .NET on Free platforms that seem to be have friction with the Mono project. Section 7.2 of Portable.NET's FAQ seems to indicate they have had conflict with the Mono project as does the banning of Martin Coxall from the dotGNU mailing list. What are your thoughts on this?

Miguel de Icaza: I did not pay attention to the actual details of the banning of Martin from the DotGNU mailing lists. Usenet and Internet mailing lists are a culture of their own and I think this is just another instance of what usually happens on the net. It is definitely sad.

The focus of Mono and .NET is slightly different: we are writing as much as we can in a high level language like C#, and writing reusable pieces of software out of it. Portable.NET is being written in C.

Dare Obasanjo: There have been conflicting reports about Ximian's relationship with Microsoft. On one hand there are reports that seem to indicate that there may be licensing problems between the license that will govern .NET and the GPL. On the other hand there is an indication that some within Microsoft are enthusiastic about Mono. So exactly what is Ximian's current relationship is with Microsoft and what will be done to ensure that Mono does not violate Microsoft's licenses on .NET if they turn out to be restrictive?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, for one we are writing everything from scratch.

We are trying to stay on the safe side regarding patents. That means that we implement things in a way that has been used in the past and we are not doing tremendously elaborate or efficient things in Mono yet. We are still very far from that. But just using existing technologies and techniques.

Dare Obasanjo: It has been pointed out that Sun retracted Java(TM) from standards processes at least twice, will the Mono project continue if .NET stops being an open standard for any reason?

Miguel de Icaza: The upgrade on our development platform has a value independently of whether it is a standard or not. The fact that Microsoft has submitted its specifications to a standards body has helped, since people who know about these problems have looked at the problem and can pin point problems for interoperability.

Dare Obasanjo: Similarly what happens if Dan Kusnetzky's prediction comes true and Microsoft changes the .NET APIs in the future? Will the Mono project play catchup or will it become an incompatible implementation of .NET on UNIX platforms?

Miguel de Icaza: Microsoft is remarkably good at keeping their APIs backwards compatible (and this is one of the reasons I think they have had so much success as a platform vendor). So I think that this would not be a problem.

Now, even if this was a problem, it is always possible to have multiple implementations of the same APIs and use the correct one by choosing at runtime the proper "assembly". Assemblies are a new way of dealing with software bundles and the files that are part of an assembly can be cryptographically checksummed and their APIs programmatically tested for compatibility. [Dare -- Description of Assemblies from MSDN gloassary]

So even if they deviate from the initial release, it would be possible to provide assemblies that are backwards compatible (we can both do that: Microsoft and ourselves)

Dare Obasanjo: Looking at the Mono class status page I noticed that a large number of .NET class libraries are not being implemented in Mono such as WinForms, ADO.NET, Web Services, XML schemas, reflection and a number of others. This means that it is very likely that when Mono and .NET are finally released apps written for .NET will not be portable to Mono. Is there any plan to rectify this in the future or is creating a portable .NET platform not a goal of the Mono project? Similarly what are the short and long term goals of the Mono project?

Miguel de Icaza: The status web page reflects the classes that people have "requested" to work on. The status web page is just a way of saying `Hey, I am working on this class as of this date' to avoid code duplication. If someone registers their interest in working on something and they do not do something after some period of time, then we can reclaim the class.

We are on the very early stages of the project, so you do see more work going on the foundational classes than on the end user classes.

I was not even expecting so many great and talented programmers to contribute so early in the project. My original prediction is that we would spend the first three months hacking on our own in public with no external contributions, but I have been proved wrong.

You have to realize that the goals of the Mono project are not only the goals of Ximian. Ximian has a set of goals, but every contributor to the project has his own goals: some people want to learn, some people like working on C#, some people want full .NET compatibility on Linux, some people want language independence, some people like to optimize code, some people like low level programming and some people want to compete with Microsoft, some people like the way .NET services work.

So the direction of the project is steered by those that contribute to it. Many people are very interested in having a compatible .NET implementation for non-Windows platforms, and they are contributing towards filling those gaps.

Dare Obasanjo: How does Ximian plan to pay for the costs of developing Mono especially after the failure of a number of recent venture funded, Free Software-based companies like Indrema, Eazel and Great Bridge and the fact that a sizable percentage of the remaining Free Software based companies are on the ropes? Specifically how does Ximian plan to make money at Free Software in general and Mono in particular?

Miguel de Icaza:Ximian provides support and services. We announced a few of our services recently, and more products and services have been on the pipeline for quite a while and would be announced during the next six months.

Those we announced recently are:

• Red Carpet Express: a subscription service for those who want a reliable high speed access to the Red Carpet servers.
• Red Carpet Corporate Connect: We modified our Red Carpet updater technology to help people manage networks of Linux workstations easily and to deploy and maintain custom software packages.
• Support and services for the GNOME desktop and Evolution: Our latest boxed products are our way of selling support services for the various products we ship.

We have also been providing professional services and support for people integrating free software based solutions.

The particular case of Mono is interesting. We are working on Mono to reduce our development costs. A very nice foundation has been laid and submitted to ECMA. Now, with the help of other interested parties that also realize the power of it, we are developing the Mono runtime and development tools to help us improve our productivity.

Indeed, the team working on Mono at Ximian is the same team that provided infrastructural help to the rest of the company in the past.

Dare Obasanjo: It is probably little known in some corners that you once interviewed with Microsoft to work on the SPARC port of Internet Explorer. Considering the impact you have had on the Free Software community since then, have you ever wondered what your life would have been like if you had become a Microsoft employee?

Miguel de Icaza: I have not given it a lot of thought, no. But I did ask everyone I interviewed at Microsoft to open source Internet Explorer, way before Netscape Communicator was Open Sourced ;-)

Thanks to Dare Obasanjo for conducting this interview with [Miguel De Icaza], and sending it on to me. I've posted the interview below here - interesting answers, and very thorough. Well done, Dare.

Interview With Miguel de Icaza Bringing a component architecture to the UNIX platform

Summary
In this interview, Miguel de Icaza, the founder of GNOME and Ximian, talks about UNIX components, Bonobo, Mono and .NET.

By Dare (Carnage4Life) Obasanjo

Dare Obasanjo: You have recently been in the press due to Ximian's announcement that it shall create an Open Source implementation of Microsoft's .NET development platform. Before the recent furor you've been notable for the work you've done with GNOME and Bonobo. Can you give a brief overview of your involvement in Free Software from your earlier projects up to Mono?

Miguel de Icaza: I have been working for the past four years on the GNOME project in various areas: organization of it, libraries and applications. Before that I used to work on the Linux kernel, I worked for a long time on the SPARC port, then on the software raid and some on the Linux/SGI effort. Before that I had written the Midnight Commander file manager.

Dare Obasanjo: In your Let's Make Unix Not Suck series you mention that UNIX development has long been hampered by a lack of code reuse. You specifically mention Brad Cox's concept of Software Integrated Circuits, where software is built primarily by combining reusable components, as a vision of how code reuse should occur. Many have countered your arguments by stating that UNIX is built on the concept of using reusable components to build programs by connecting the output of smaller programs with pipes. What are your opinions of this counter-argument?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, the paper addresses that question in detail. A `pipe' is hardly a complete component system. It is a transport mechanism that is used with some well known protocols (lines, characters, buffers) to process information. The protocol only has a flow of information.

Details are on the paper:
http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html [Dare -- check the section entitled "Unix Components: Small is Beautiful"]

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo was your attempt to create a UNIX component architecture using CORBA as the underlying base. What are the reasons you have decided to focus on Mono instead?

Miguel de Icaza: The GNOME project goal was to bring missing technologies to Unix and make it competitive in the current market place for desktop applications. We also realized early on that language independence was important, and that is why GNOME APIs were coded using a standard that allowed the APIs to be easily wrapped for other languages. Our APIs are available to most programming languages on Unix (Perl, Python, Scheme, C++, Objective-C, Ada).

Later on we decided to use better methods for encapsulating our APIs, and we started to use CORBA to define interfaces to components. We complemented it with policy and a set of standard GNOME interfaces for easily creating reusable, language independent components, controls and compound documents. This technology is known as Bonobo. Interfaces to Bonobo exist for C, Perl, Python, and Java.

CORBA is good when you define coarse interfaces, and most Bonobo interfaces are coarse. The only problem is that Bonobo/CORBA interfaces are not good for small interfaces. For example, an XML parsing Bonobo/CORBA component would be inefficient compared to a C API.

I also wrote at some point:

My interest in .NET comes from the attempts that we have made before in the GNOME project to achieve some of the things .NET does:

• APIs that are exposed to multiple languages.
  
• Cross-language integration.
  
• Contract/interface based programming.
  

And on top of things, I always loved various things about Java. I just did not love the Java combo that you were supposed to give or take.

APIs exposed to many languages we tried by having a common object base (GtkObject) and then following an API contract and a format that would allow others to wrap the APIs easily for their programming language. We even have a Scheme-based definition of the API that is used to generate wrappers on the fly. This solution is suboptimal for many reasons.

The Cross-language integration we have been doing with CORBA, sort of like COM, but with an imposed marshalling penalty. It works pretty well for non inProc components. But for inProc components the story is pretty bad: since there was no CORBA ABI that we could use, the result is so horrible, that I have no words to describe it.

On top of this problem, we have a proliferation of libraries. Most of them follow our coding conventions pretty accurately. Every once in a while they either wont or we would adopt a library written by someone else. This had lead to a mix of libraries that although powerful in result implement multiple programming models, sometimes different allocation and ownership policies and after a while you are dealing with 5 different kind of "ref/unref" behaviours (CORBA local references, CORBA object references on Unknown objects, reference count on object wrappers) and this was turning into a gigantic mess.

We have of course been trying to fix all these issues, and things are looking better (the GNOME 2.x platform does solve many of these issues, but still).

.NET seemed to me like an upgrade for Win32 developers: they had the same problems we had when dealing with APIs that have been designed over many years, a great deal of inconsistency. So I want to have some of this new "fresh air" available for building my own applications.

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo is slightly based on COM and OLE2 as can be gleaned from the fact that Bonobo interfaces are all based on the Bonobo::Unknown interface which provides two basic services: object lifetime management and object functionality-discovery and only contains three methods:

 
        module Bonobo {
                interface Unknown {
                        void ref ();
                        void unref ();
                        Object query_interface (in string repoid);
                };
        };

 

which is very similar to Microsoft's COM IUnknown interface which has the following methods

 
HRESULT QueryInterface(REFIID riid, void **ppvObject);
ULONG AddRef();
ULONG Release();
 

Does the fact that .NET seems to spell the impending death of COM mean that Mono will spell the end of of Bonobo? Similarly considering that .NET plans to have semi-transparent COM/.NET interoperability, is there a similar plan for Mono and Bonobo?

Miguel de Icaza: Definetly. Mono will have to interoperate with a number of systems out there including Bonobo on GNOME.

Dare Obasanjo: A number of parties have claimed that Microsoft's NET platform is a poor clone of the Java(TM) platform. If this is the case why hasn't Ximian decided to clone or use the Java platform instead of cloning Microsoft's .NET platform?

Miguel de Icaza: We were interested in the CLR because it solves a problem that we face every day. The Java VM did not solve this problem.

Dare Obasanjo: On the Mono Rationale page it is pointed out that Microsoft's .NET strategy encompasses many efforts including

• The .NET development platform, a new platform for writing software.
• Web services.
• Microsoft Server Applications.
• New tools that use the new development platform.
• Hailstorm, the Passport centralized single-signon system that is being integrated into Windows XP.

and you point out that Mono is merely an implementation of of the .NET development platform. Is there any plan by Ximian to implement other parts of the .NET strategy?

Miguel de Icaza: Not at this point. We have a commitment to develop currently:

• A CLI runtime with a JITer for x86 CPUs.
• A C# compiler.
• A class library

All of the above with the help of external contributors. You have to understand that this is a big undertaking and that without the various people who have donated their time, expertise and code to the project we would not even have a chance of delivering a complete product any time soon.

We are doing this for selfish reasons: we want a better way of developing Linux and Unix applications ourselves and we see the CLI as such a thing.

That being said, Ximian being in the services and support business would not mind extending its effort towards making the Mono project tackle other things like porting to new platforms, or improving the JIT engine, or focusing on a particular area of Mono.

But other than this, we do not have plans at this point to go beyond the three basic announcements that we have made.

Dare Obasanjo: There are a number of other projects that are implementing other parts of .NET on Free platforms that seem to be have friction with the Mono project. Section 7.2 of Portable.NET's FAQ seems to indicate they have had conflict with the Mono project as does the banning of Martin Coxall from the dotGNU mailing list. What are your thoughts on this?

Miguel de Icaza: I did not pay attention to the actual details of the banning of Martin from the DotGNU mailing lists. Usenet and Internet mailing lists are a culture of their own and I think this is just another instance of what usually happens on the net. It is definitely sad.

The focus of Mono and .NET is slightly different: we are writing as much as we can in a high level language like C#, and writing reusable pieces of software out of it. Portable.NET is being written in C.

Dare Obasanjo: There have been conflicting reports about Ximian's relationship with Microsoft. On one hand there are reports that seem to indicate that there may be licensing problems between the license that will govern .NET and the GPL. On the other hand there is an indication that some within Microsoft are enthusiastic about Mono. So exactly what is Ximian's current relationship is with Microsoft and what will be done to ensure that Mono does not violate Microsoft's licenses on .NET if they turn out to be restrictive?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, for one we are writing everything from scratch.

We are trying to stay on the safe side regarding patents. That means that we implement things in a way that has been used in the past and we are not doing tremendously elaborate or efficient things in Mono yet. We are still very far from that. But just using existing technologies and techniques.

Dare Obasanjo: It has been pointed out that Sun retracted Java(TM) from standards processes at least twice, will the Mono project continue if .NET stops being an open standard for any reason?

Miguel de Icaza: The upgrade on our development platform has a value independently of whether it is a standard or not. The fact that Microsoft has submitted its specifications to a standards body has helped, since people who know about these problems have looked at the problem and can pin point problems for interoperability.

Dare Obasanjo: Similarly what happens if Dan Kusnetzky's prediction comes true and Microsoft changes the .NET APIs in the future? Will the Mono project play catchup or will it become an incompatible implementation of .NET on UNIX platforms?

Miguel de Icaza: Microsoft is remarkably good at keeping their APIs backwards compatible (and this is one of the reasons I think they have had so much success as a platform vendor). So I think that this would not be a problem.

Now, even if this was a problem, it is always possible to have multiple implementations of the same APIs and use the correct one by choosing at runtime the proper "assembly". Assemblies are a new way of dealing with software bundles and the files that are part of an assembly can be cryptographically checksummed and their APIs programmatically tested for compatibility. [Dare -- Description of Assemblies from MSDN gloassary]

So even if they deviate from the initial release, it would be possible to provide assemblies that are backwards compatible (we can both do that: Microsoft and ourselves)

Dare Obasanjo: Looking at the Mono class status page I noticed that a large number of .NET class libraries are not being implemented in Mono such as WinForms, ADO.NET, Web Services, XML schemas, reflection and a number of others. This means that it is very likely that when Mono and .NET are finally released apps written for .NET will not be portable to Mono. Is there any plan to rectify this in the future or is creating a portable .NET platform not a goal of the Mono project? Similarly what are the short and long term goals of the Mono project?

Miguel de Icaza: The status web page reflects the classes that people have "requested" to work on. The status web page is just a way of saying `Hey, I am working on this class as of this date' to avoid code duplication. If someone registers their interest in working on something and they do not do something after some period of time, then we can reclaim the class.

We are on the very early stages of the project, so you do see more work going on the foundational classes than on the end user classes.

I was not even expecting so many great and talented programmers to contribute so early in the project. My original prediction is that we would spend the first three months hacking on our own in public with no external contributions, but I have been proved wrong.

You have to realize that the goals of the Mono project are not only the goals of Ximian. Ximian has a set of goals, but every contributor to the project has his own goals: some people want to learn, some people like working on C#, some people want full .NET compatibility on Linux, some people want language independence, some people like to optimize code, some people like low level programming and some people want to compete with Microsoft, some people like the way .NET services work.

So the direction of the project is steered by those that contribute to it. Many people are very interested in having a compatible .NET implementation for non-Windows platforms, and they are contributing towards filling those gaps.

Dare Obasanjo: How does Ximian plan to pay for the costs of developing Mono especially after the failure of a number of recent venture funded, Free Software-based companies like Indrema, Eazel and Great Bridge and the fact that a sizable percentage of the remaining Free Software based companies are on the ropes? Specifically how does Ximian plan to make money at Free Software in general and Mono in particular?

Miguel de Icaza:Ximian provides support and services. We announced a few of our services recently, and more products and services have been on the pipeline for quite a while and would be announced during the next six months.

Those we announced recently are:

• Red Carpet Express: a subscription service for those who want a reliable high speed access to the Red Carpet servers.
• Red Carpet Corporate Connect: We modified our Red Carpet updater technology to help people manage networks of Linux workstations easily and to deploy and maintain custom software packages.
• Support and services for the GNOME desktop and Evolution: Our latest boxed products are our way of selling support services for the various products we ship.

We have also been providing professional services and support for people integrating free software based solutions.

The particular case of Mono is interesting. We are working on Mono to reduce our development costs. A very nice foundation has been laid and submitted to ECMA. Now, with the help of other interested parties that also realize the power of it, we are developing the Mono runtime and development tools to help us improve our productivity.

Indeed, the team working on Mono at Ximian is the same team that provided infrastructural help to the rest of the company in the past.

Dare Obasanjo: It is probably little known in some corners that you once interviewed with Microsoft to work on the SPARC port of Internet Explorer. Considering the impact you have had on the Free Software community since then, have you ever wondered what your life would have been like if you had become a Microsoft employee?

Miguel de Icaza: I have not given it a lot of thought, no. But I did ask everyone I interviewed at Microsoft to open source Internet Explorer, way before Netscape Communicator was Open Sourced ;-)

Thanks to Dare Obasanjo for conducting this interview with [Miguel De Icaza], and sending it on to me. I've posted the interview below here - interesting answers, and very thorough. Well done, Dare.

Interview With Miguel de Icaza Bringing a component architecture to the UNIX platform

Summary
In this interview, Miguel de Icaza, the founder of GNOME and Ximian, talks about UNIX components, Bonobo, Mono and .NET.

By Dare (Carnage4Life) Obasanjo

Dare Obasanjo: You have recently been in the press due to Ximian's announcement that it shall create an Open Source implementation of Microsoft's .NET development platform. Before the recent furor you've been notable for the work you've done with GNOME and Bonobo. Can you give a brief overview of your involvement in Free Software from your earlier projects up to Mono?

Miguel de Icaza: I have been working for the past four years on the GNOME project in various areas: organization of it, libraries and applications. Before that I used to work on the Linux kernel, I worked for a long time on the SPARC port, then on the software raid and some on the Linux/SGI effort. Before that I had written the Midnight Commander file manager.

Dare Obasanjo: In your Let's Make Unix Not Suck series you mention that UNIX development has long been hampered by a lack of code reuse. You specifically mention Brad Cox's concept of Software Integrated Circuits, where software is built primarily by combining reusable components, as a vision of how code reuse should occur. Many have countered your arguments by stating that UNIX is built on the concept of using reusable components to build programs by connecting the output of smaller programs with pipes. What are your opinions of this counter-argument?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, the paper addresses that question in detail. A `pipe' is hardly a complete component system. It is a transport mechanism that is used with some well known protocols (lines, characters, buffers) to process information. The protocol only has a flow of information.

Details are on the paper:
http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html [Dare -- check the section entitled "Unix Components: Small is Beautiful"]

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo was your attempt to create a UNIX component architecture using CORBA as the underlying base. What are the reasons you have decided to focus on Mono instead?

Miguel de Icaza: The GNOME project goal was to bring missing technologies to Unix and make it competitive in the current market place for desktop applications. We also realized early on that language independence was important, and that is why GNOME APIs were coded using a standard that allowed the APIs to be easily wrapped for other languages. Our APIs are available to most programming languages on Unix (Perl, Python, Scheme, C++, Objective-C, Ada).

Later on we decided to use better methods for encapsulating our APIs, and we started to use CORBA to define interfaces to components. We complemented it with policy and a set of standard GNOME interfaces for easily creating reusable, language independent components, controls and compound documents. This technology is known as Bonobo. Interfaces to Bonobo exist for C, Perl, Python, and Java.

CORBA is good when you define coarse interfaces, and most Bonobo interfaces are coarse. The only problem is that Bonobo/CORBA interfaces are not good for small interfaces. For example, an XML parsing Bonobo/CORBA component would be inefficient compared to a C API.

I also wrote at some point:

My interest in .NET comes from the attempts that we have made before in the GNOME project to achieve some of the things .NET does:

• APIs that are exposed to multiple languages.
  
• Cross-language integration.
  
• Contract/interface based programming.
  

And on top of things, I always loved various things about Java. I just did not love the Java combo that you were supposed to give or take.

APIs exposed to many languages we tried by having a common object base (GtkObject) and then following an API contract and a format that would allow others to wrap the APIs easily for their programming language. We even have a Scheme-based definition of the API that is used to generate wrappers on the fly. This solution is suboptimal for many reasons.

The Cross-language integration we have been doing with CORBA, sort of like COM, but with an imposed marshalling penalty. It works pretty well for non inProc components. But for inProc components the story is pretty bad: since there was no CORBA ABI that we could use, the result is so horrible, that I have no words to describe it.

On top of this problem, we have a proliferation of libraries. Most of them follow our coding conventions pretty accurately. Every once in a while they either wont or we would adopt a library written by someone else. This had lead to a mix of libraries that although powerful in result implement multiple programming models, sometimes different allocation and ownership policies and after a while you are dealing with 5 different kind of "ref/unref" behaviours (CORBA local references, CORBA object references on Unknown objects, reference count on object wrappers) and this was turning into a gigantic mess.

We have of course been trying to fix all these issues, and things are looking better (the GNOME 2.x platform does solve many of these issues, but still).

.NET seemed to me like an upgrade for Win32 developers: they had the same problems we had when dealing with APIs that have been designed over many years, a great deal of inconsistency. So I want to have some of this new "fresh air" available for building my own applications.

Dare Obasanjo: Bonobo is slightly based on COM and OLE2 as can be gleaned from the fact that Bonobo interfaces are all based on the Bonobo::Unknown interface which provides two basic services: object lifetime management and object functionality-discovery and only contains three methods:

 
        module Bonobo {
                interface Unknown {
                        void ref ();
                        void unref ();
                        Object query_interface (in string repoid);
                };
        };

 

which is very similar to Microsoft's COM IUnknown interface which has the following methods

 
HRESULT QueryInterface(REFIID riid, void **ppvObject);
ULONG AddRef();
ULONG Release();
 

Does the fact that .NET seems to spell the impending death of COM mean that Mono will spell the end of of Bonobo? Similarly considering that .NET plans to have semi-transparent COM/.NET interoperability, is there a similar plan for Mono and Bonobo?

Miguel de Icaza: Definetly. Mono will have to interoperate with a number of systems out there including Bonobo on GNOME.

Dare Obasanjo: A number of parties have claimed that Microsoft's NET platform is a poor clone of the Java(TM) platform. If this is the case why hasn't Ximian decided to clone or use the Java platform instead of cloning Microsoft's .NET platform?

Miguel de Icaza: We were interested in the CLR because it solves a problem that we face every day. The Java VM did not solve this problem.

Dare Obasanjo: On the Mono Rationale page it is pointed out that Microsoft's .NET strategy encompasses many efforts including

• The .NET development platform, a new platform for writing software.
• Web services.
• Microsoft Server Applications.
• New tools that use the new development platform.
• Hailstorm, the Passport centralized single-signon system that is being integrated into Windows XP.

and you point out that Mono is merely an implementation of of the .NET development platform. Is there any plan by Ximian to implement other parts of the .NET strategy?

Miguel de Icaza: Not at this point. We have a commitment to develop currently:

• A CLI runtime with a JITer for x86 CPUs.
• A C# compiler.
• A class library

All of the above with the help of external contributors. You have to understand that this is a big undertaking and that without the various people who have donated their time, expertise and code to the project we would not even have a chance of delivering a complete product any time soon.

We are doing this for selfish reasons: we want a better way of developing Linux and Unix applications ourselves and we see the CLI as such a thing.

That being said, Ximian being in the services and support business would not mind extending its effort towards making the Mono project tackle other things like porting to new platforms, or improving the JIT engine, or focusing on a particular area of Mono.

But other than this, we do not have plans at this point to go beyond the three basic announcements that we have made.

Dare Obasanjo: There are a number of other projects that are implementing other parts of .NET on Free platforms that seem to be have friction with the Mono project. Section 7.2 of Portable.NET's FAQ seems to indicate they have had conflict with the Mono project as does the banning of Martin Coxall from the dotGNU mailing list. What are your thoughts on this?

Miguel de Icaza: I did not pay attention to the actual details of the banning of Martin from the DotGNU mailing lists. Usenet and Internet mailing lists are a culture of their own and I think this is just another instance of what usually happens on the net. It is definitely sad.

The focus of Mono and .NET is slightly different: we are writing as much as we can in a high level language like C#, and writing reusable pieces of software out of it. Portable.NET is being written in C.

Dare Obasanjo: There have been conflicting reports about Ximian's relationship with Microsoft. On one hand there are reports that seem to indicate that there may be licensing problems between the license that will govern .NET and the GPL. On the other hand there is an indication that some within Microsoft are enthusiastic about Mono. So exactly what is Ximian's current relationship is with Microsoft and what will be done to ensure that Mono does not violate Microsoft's licenses on .NET if they turn out to be restrictive?

Miguel de Icaza: Well, for one we are writing everything from scratch.

We are trying to stay on the safe side regarding patents. That means that we implement things in a way that has been used in the past and we are not doing tremendously elaborate or efficient things in Mono yet. We are still very far from that. But just using existing technologies and techniques.

Dare Obasanjo: It has been pointed out that Sun retracted Java(TM) from standards processes at least twice, will the Mono project continue if .NET stops being an open standard for any reason?

Miguel de Icaza: The upgrade on our development platform has a value independently of whether it is a standard or not. The fact that Microsoft has submitted its specifications to a standards body has helped, since people who know about these problems have looked at the problem and can pin point problems for interoperability.

Dare Obasanjo: Similarly what happens if Dan Kusnetzky's prediction comes true and Microsoft changes the .NET APIs in the future? Will the Mono project play catchup or will it become an incompatible implementation of .NET on UNIX platforms?

Miguel de Icaza: Microsoft is remarkably good at keeping their APIs backwards compatible (and this is one of the reasons I think they have had so much success as a platform vendor). So I think that this would not be a problem.

Now, even if this was a problem, it is always possible to have multiple implementations of the same APIs and use the correct one by choosing at runtime the proper "assembly". Assemblies are a new way of dealing with software bundles and the files that are part of an assembly can be cryptographically checksummed and their APIs programmatically tested for compatibility. [Dare -- Description of Assemblies from MSDN gloassary]

So even if they deviate from the initial release, it would be possible to provide assemblies that are backwards compatible (we can both do that: Microsoft and ourselves)

Dare Obasanjo: Looking at the Mono class status page I noticed that a large number of .NET class libraries are not being implemented in Mono such as WinForms, ADO.NET, Web Services, XML schemas, reflection and a number of others. This means that it is very likely that when Mono and .NET are finally released apps written for .NET will not be portable to Mono. Is there any plan to rectify this in the future or is creating a portable .NET platform not a goal of the Mono project? Similarly what are the short and long term goals of the Mono project?

Miguel de Icaza: The status web page reflects the classes that people have "requested" to work on. The status web page is just a way of saying `Hey, I am working on this class as of this date' to avoid code duplication. If someone registers their interest in working on something and they do not do something after some period of time, then we can reclaim the class.

We are on the very early stages of the project, so you do see more work going on the foundational classes than on the end user classes.

I was not even expecting so many great and talented programmers to contribute so early in the project. My original prediction is that we would spend the first three months hacking on our own in public with no external contributions, but I have been proved wrong.

You have to realize that the goals of the Mono project are not only the goals of Ximian. Ximian has a set of goals, but every contributor to the project has his own goals: some people want to learn, some people like working on C#, some people want full .NET compatibility on Linux, some people want language independence, some people like to optimize code, some people like low level programming and some people want to compete with Microsoft, some people like the way .NET services work.

So the direction of the project is steered by those that contribute to it. Many people are very interested in having a compatible .NET implementation for non-Windows platforms, and they are contributing towards filling those gaps.

Dare Obasanjo: How does Ximian plan to pay for the costs of developing Mono especially after the failure of a number of recent venture funded, Free Software-based companies like Indrema, Eazel and Great Bridge and the fact that a sizable percentage of the remaining Free Software based companies are on the ropes? Specifically how does Ximian plan to make money at Free Software in general and Mono in particular?

Miguel de Icaza:Ximian provides support and services. We announced a few of our services recently, and more products and services have been on the pipeline for quite a while and would be announced during the next six months.

Those we announced recently are:

• Red Carpet Express: a subscription service for those who want a reliable high speed access to the Red Carpet servers.
• Red Carpet Corporate Connect: We modified our Red Carpet updater technology to help people manage networks of Linux workstations easily and to deploy and maintain custom software packages.
• Support and services for the GNOME desktop and Evolution: Our latest boxed products are our way of selling support services for the various products we ship.

We have also been providing professional services and support for people integrating free software based solutions.

The particular case of Mono is interesting. We are working on Mono to reduce our development costs. A very nice foundation has been laid and submitted to ECMA. Now, with the help of other interested parties that also realize the power of it, we are developing the Mono runtime and development tools to help us improve our productivity.

Indeed, the team working on Mono at Ximian is the same team that provided infrastructural help to the rest of the company in the past.

Dare Obasanjo: It is probably little known in some corners that you once interviewed with Microsoft to work on the SPARC port of Internet Explorer. Considering the impact you have had on the Free Software community since then, have you ever wondered what your life would have been like if you had become a Microsoft employee?

Miguel de Icaza: I have not given it a lot of thought, no. But I did ask everyone I interviewed at Microsoft to open source Internet Explorer, way before Netscape Communicator was Open Sourced ;-)

Matt Beale writes "Ximian is slated to release Evolution (a mail client for Gnome/Linux) by October 1st. In preperation, they are offering awards for finding bugs in Evolution! A important open project to participate in, AND i can win a palm VII, sweet!" My bug was that it kept crashing ;) October release is ambitious but very cool.

Matt Beale writes "Ximian is slated to release Evolution (a mail client for Gnome/Linux) by October 1st. In preperation, they are offering awards for finding bugs in Evolution! A important open project to participate in, AND i can win a palm VII, sweet!" My bug was that it kept crashing ;) October release is ambitious but very cool.

saurik writes "After what has been a strange few weeks of converse between the DotGNU and Mono teams (including a small PR SNAFU that involved the banning of a member from the DotGNU mailing list), DotGNU has now announced that they will be forming a partnership with Portable.NET." Frankly I like that there are 2 efforts going on. Maybe one will succeed.

An Anonymous Coward writes: "Bad Ximian. In this week's Infoworld opinion piece Nicholas Petreley points out how Ximian's .Net Clone, Mono, may very well be the "Destroy Open Source" Trojan horse that Microsoft has been desperately seeking. Thanks Nick for the wake up slap. We needed it." I don't understand how Ximian expects to succeed either. Lots of other companies have attempted to co-exist with Microsoft in a similar fashion, and they all lasted right up until the instant Microsoft decided to squash them.