Slashdot Mirror
The Perfect Gift: a Clone of Yourself?
Tom Bailey writes "It appears that a UFO cult is creating a company for cloning people. It costs only $200,000. They believe that humans are clones of aliens. You can check it out at www.clonaid.com. You have to wonder if these guys are really serious. I'm going to ask my parents to get me a clone for my birthday." Very strange. Is this science, humor or pure wackiness?
The Raelians are a cult like any other.
/. .... these fuckers are just a cult.
One of their fundamental beliefs is that we are all descendants aliens, which are/is "God".
The word elohim in hebrew means "the heavens", which they claim is misrepresented and really means "the things in the heavens", and for Rael I guess that means little green men.
BTW, these people are a real nuisance in the downtown core of Montreal, getting in the way and distributing their books (propaganda). So far, they doing better than Hare Krishna's and those cult of the Solar temple dudes.
They have a great marketing/propaganda engine.
I think they believe in the free sex thing (Read: orgies), but I cannot confirm this. Check out their website (www.rael.org) for a good chuckle.
Also, the only reason they would want $200k is to finance Rael's expensive taste for mansions for his orgies.
Do you REALLY think a person is going to be cloned succesfully in the next 5 years? Think about it.
Hopefully next time this won't be posted on
I mean, he doesn't live here on Earth does he?
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
Don't be daft.
<i>... what rights does a clone have? Are they still part of the human race?</i>
A individual cloned from an original is the same genetically as the original and therefore of the same species. What a stupid question!
<i>How exactly is their relationship to the original described (different relationship, different rights: ex: married, sibling, no affiliation)?</i>
A individual cloned from an original is the same genetically as the original and therefore they are identical twins in everyday parlance.
<i>Besides, I thought some high council on human rights met and discussed this issue (of human cloning) when Dolly was created and deemed that cloning humans was illegal.</i>
This is to be performed in one of those countries which doesn't subscribe to such agreements. There are plenty of such places, I think St. Kitts in the Caribbean is one of them.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
We've had test-tube babies for more than 20 years now. and since then, all kinds of unnatural conceptions. You never see society's hatred visited upon the individuals thus born, even though the parents might receive some flak over it. I really don't think most people will care when they see that a clone is just a normal baby and when they've already had it explained to them that it's just like a twin.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Correction - fraternal twins are not clones. Monozygotic ("identical") twind are clones. It is a specific biological term and was in usage long before the current practice of nuclear substitution was invented.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Imagine the joy of a widow raising a child looking like her beloved deceased husband" she said.
Jesus Christ! Can I please not imagine that? That's about the freakiest thing you could possibly do with a clone(almost). Think of all the psychological issues both the mother and child would have, not to mention...ew! ewwww! What a messed up concept.
-lx
Oh, give me a clone,
a clone of my own,
with the Y chromosome changed to X.
And when it's full grown,
my very own clone,
will be thinking of nothing but sex.
Chorus:
Clone, clone of my own,
with the Y chromosome changed to X,
and when it's full grown,
my very own clone,
will be thinking of nothing but sex.
--
Dolly isn't 100% genetically identical to her "parent", but she's still a clone. This has more to do with the way Biologists use the word "clone", though. They routinely ignore the types of changes Spineboy described when describing clonal propagation of organisms such as bacteria, plant cuttings, an earthworm cut in half, etc... Anyway, just a little elaboration of some of his points below:
1. In terms of being a genetic match, the changes in mitochondrial DNA are a very small fraction of her total genome. I don't know about sheep mtDNA, but the entire human mitochondrial genome is only about 16.5kb (Tiny -- you could print the entire thing out on about 5 pages, single sided), and the number of polymorphisms in the mtDNA is probably only a handful of nucleotides, so she's probably something like 99.99999% a clone.
Spineboy is right, though -- there *could* be some very important functional differences in that little bit. You could solve that problem by using egg cells from Dolly's "mother" to clone her.
2. Dolly's "premature" aging has been widely reported, but that is a premature conclusion. She has somewhat shortened teleomeres -- which does not automatically translate exactly to being aged.
Her cells should have a lower hayflick limit, but, what we need to demonstrate premature aging is a sufficiently large number of cloned organisms. Then we will be able to get a statistical measure of changes in their lifespan.
3. I think spineboy is confusing two different things here. The skin on your elbow may have had a different pattern of gene expression than the skin on your face, in the same way that that it would have a had a (much more drastic) difference in expression than, for instance, a muscle cell. In addition, the two cells grown and developed in a different environments, which changes their behavior.
The idea behind somatic cell cloning is that the egg "reprograms" the implanted nucleus's gene expression. However, we can't be sure at this point if the expression has returned to 100% embryonic-like (it probably hasn't), and he's got a valid criticism there.
I think what spineboy originally meant was a somatic mutation. In that case, you might find one in, say, an old age spot or a cancer -- so yes, Dolly's nuclear DNA might not be 100% identical, either.
http://www.emsphone.com/Yankovic/WeirdAl/e_Even_Wo rse/i_think_im_a_clone_now.txt
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
On 13 December 1973 French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from an other planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.
There are a lot reasons of people in the '70s were contacted by alians but that's anohter story.
The extra-terrestrial was about four feet in height, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin and exuded harmony and humour. He told Rael that "we were the ones who made all life on earth, you mistook us for gods, we were at the origin of your main religions. Now that you are mature enough to understand this, we would like to enter official contact through an embassy".
We are all clones of four foot tall dark haired alians with almond shaped eyes and olive skin. Yet we are generally between 5 and 6.5 feet tall. We are blond, dark haired, redheads, etc. None of us have almond shaped eyes (at least not compaired to what they are talking about) and human skin color ranges dramaticly but I wouldn't have thought of olive.
Maby it's just the nature/nurture thing but what percentage of humans ``exuded harmony and humour''?
--Ben
What this reminded me of was the old Steve Jackson game Car Wars, where they had a service you could buy called "Gold Cross". They'd grow you a clone (with some sort of rapid aginng technique), then they would implant your memories into it - if you died, poof! A new you. You make backup copies of your data, why not backup copies of your whole family?
All we need now is a method of transferring memories and the rapid aging, and we're set!
Of course, in Car Wars this service was "very expensive" (quote from the rules) - $10,000.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
(1) Morality. Even if the company feels absolutely justified in doing what they apparently plan to, many people, while whimsically wishing for a perfect clone of themselves, could well still feel it wrong to use the company's services. People who think the company's actions morally wrong might (read: will) create some sort of protest. And the protest will likely be big.
About 10% of the people in this country see nothing wrong with cloning. I define morality for myself as not doing something that brings harm to anyone. Cloning, in and of itself, can do no more harm then identical twins, by definition. I have no desire to have myself cloned, but I don't see how cloning causes harm. (And I don't want to hear about what 'might' be done, most of the scenarios could happen without cloning, and there are plenty of technologies that can harm lots of people, such as nuclear tech. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use nuclear power).
(2) Legislation-- existing and future. Although cloning might be legal in some other country that does not mean the United States will allow it even so. Maybe the company could lawfully carry out their activities in some other country, but (new?) US laws might just render it impossible for them to service US citizens.
Cloning is legal in the US (Why do people always think that it isn't?). There are no laws preventing it. Government money cannot be used to fund it, however.
As for #3, you're right. Cloning of humans can't be done right now, as far as I know.
[ c h a d o k e r e ]
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
It's not terribly unusual for a twin to donate a kidney to their twin.
Certainly, if I thought Jesus was responsbile for the way most Christians practice their faith, he'd be on my list of Most Contempable People. But while he might have been either an insightful mystic, or a mentally ill person who really believed he has the son of the Jewish god, I don't doubt that his teachings have been so distorted over the years that he bears little responsibility for "Christianity".
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
What's the price if I only want one 1/8th my size?
Find a copy of Isaac Asimov's nonfiction collection of essays. One of them is an essay on cloning that's now around two decades old (in which he mentions, among other things, that the word "clone" comes from the Greek word for "twig" but nobody on /. gives a rat's ass about that :-).
/. has kneejerked their reactions and nobody's reading it anymore.
He wrote this song, which is to be sung to the tune of "Home on the Range" and has some five or six versus plus the chorus. The real first verse goes:
Oh give me a clone
Of my own flesh and bone
With the Y chromosome changed to X.
And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex.
The others are fscking hilarious.
I'm not going to type the rest because a) it's probably infringement or something, b) you should buy the book anyhow because it's really good, c) I'm tired, and d) now that this thread has existed for more than ninety minutes, all of
Asimov also mentions his guest speech to a Holmes appreciation society a few nights later, at which he brought the house down by singing an alternative version: "Oh give me a clone / Of the great Sherlock Holmes / With the Y..."
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
Maybe the Baptists will clone Martin Luther to give the Pope another round of heck...
A religious movement aiming at cloning human beings sounds a little funny. I suppose that when the brainwashing doesn't produce a suitable homogeneous flock, there's always the option of just making copies.
And since when is a religion the friend of technological advances? Oh wait, this *is* a UFO cult, and there *are* those pesky Scientologists. So I guess there is a precedent.
I at least hope they'll clone Lazarus Long and have regular weekly orgies, like any advanced science-fiction civilization should...
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I can't see much reason to clone myself, unless I want to take over the world with an army of clones, genetically engineered to say witty phrases like, "Ah'll be bach." or "Hasta la vista, baay-bee."
Really, if I'm dead, what do I care if there's some clone of my original body walking around? It's not me, though it *might* look like me. Think about twins. They don't have 100% the same personalities, and they're basically clones when they're in the womb.
The Raelian website can be found at www.rael.org. It's pretty funny (and the design is nicer than the Clonaid site). A few snippets...
<ul>
<li> There are building a embassay to communicate with the Elohim
<li> The founder apparently used to be a Formula-1 Driver
<li> They have an online shop where you can buy their book
</ul>
Dana
Please tell me this isn't serious. If I were to get a clone of myself, I would NOT look to a religious affiliated company to do it. That's all I need, a fanatic version of myself that will stop at nothing to convert the original. Frightening!
-Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. One lick and you will suck forever.
Who would recreate a child who dies in an accident or incurable disease? Someone would have to have severe psychological problems to even consider it.
--
Personally, I think cloning a human raises a whole bunch of moral issues... what rights does a clone have? Are they still part of the human race? How exactly is their relationship to the original described (different relationship, different rights: ex: married, sibling, no affiliation)? Besides, I thought some high council on human rights met and discussed this issue (of human cloning) when Dolly was created and deemed that cloning humans was illegal. Forgive me, I don't remember who or what that body of members was, but I thought it was kind of the last word.
It is weird to see a religious group so for cloning and actually providing the service. I wonder what added benefits the organization has (ie having the clone be a religious fanatic) that isn't transparent at this point?
I think cloning would be interesting because the clone would have a different life from there on and it would be kind of cool to see how the two humans, although genetically the same, develop as they take on different lives and experiences. I'm sure whoever is the first human clone will soon be sick of all the media following them around constantly... but, hey that's the price you pay for being first! =)
My religious cult has been cloning people for about three years now. These guys are just ripoffs of jackerian fundamentals of human cloning. And humans aren't clones of aliens, we're clones of ancient gophers. This site should be frowned upon as a disgrace to the human cloning religious cults of America.
I say we boycot this site.
--
Stop calling me human.
As a real life twin, I can testify that cloning can be a very positive experience for everyone involved :). Especially when I was growing up, it was great to have another version of myself around. Someone that I can pretty much trust implicitly, that I can compare the validity of my thoughts and feelings with.
Come to think of it, several people have told me over the years that they've fantasised about being twins or that they envy me. This desire for a clone seems to be a more common one, whatever the reasons may be. I'm no psychologist but I figure that ultimately noone wants to die, noone wants to be alone, and everyone is pretty much programmed to spread their genes one way or another, anyway.
The things my brother and me have in common are reassuring, and genetically, we are exactly the same, but of course we've had many different experiences. But even if we'd done exactly the same things, we still would've turned out individuals somehow. Similarly, any clone that you make of yourself is not going to be yourself. I'm not religious, but I'll call the part that you can't duplicate the soul.
Technical difficulties with cloning aside (I recall having read that Dolly was born with genetic material that was as old as the 'mother Dolly', reducing her life expectancy, and that the egg carrier's RNA made the clone imperfect, or something like that), then what the heck is the use? Imagine being born and knowing that you're a clone of someone that is now 40 years of age or so. It's hard to really imagine how that would feel. Sure, you're an individual, and the different periods when you're growing up are going to make sure that you as clone are going to be even more different from the first edition than a twin would be. But just being able to see yourself 40 years older is a Cassandra-complex like nightmare that must be damn hard to deal with. I for one wouldn't want to do that to anyone, certainly not a tender soul so similar to myself. Personally, I think I'd be likely to loathe my blueprint.
Aside from that, nature says that as far as procreation is concerned, the idea is to take bits from 2 separate gene pools. To really help things along, we need real children. As much as I think I'm a nice guy, I do need to evolve. Clones don't add anything new.
Froz wrote:
/]# adduser froz /]# adduser froz2 /]# adduser froz47 -
:-)
Sure, it's all fun and games with your personal clones until they start demanding their own account on your machine...
[root@localhost
adduser: user froz exists
[root@localhost
adduser: user froz2 exists
[root@localhost
adduser: user froz47 exists
-----------------------------------------------
This would also give entirely new meaning to being the root user!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Shocking as it may sound, cloning humans is possible and has been done already. A small image of a cloned subject is available here. The scientific article has been published here. However the behaviour of the clone may be unpredictable.
Sure, it's all fun and games with your personal clones until they start demanding their own account on your machine...
/]# adduser froz /]# adduser froz2 /]# adduser froz47
[root@localhost
adduser: user froz exists
[root@localhost
adduser: user froz2 exists
[root@localhost
adduser: user froz47 exists
Actually, this story isn't that new. About three years ago, the Rael-sect, which is responsible for this project, held a talk in my town (in Germany), which I visited with a few friends. We went there mainly for entertainment, it was certainly worth it. At least half of the spectators were, well, skeptical, and it was lots of fun asking questions about their logically rather weak ideas on the creation of mankind. For example, they think humans were genetically engineered in the laboratories of the Elohim (some kind of aliean race) in space. Apparently, the Elohim themselves were created by another higher-level species, which obviously solves all questions ;-).
Also, the way they reinterpret the bible is interesting. IIRC, Salomon's hair worked as antennae for communicating with the Elohim. It was then cut off when he annoyed them for some reason or other.
Anyway, this cloning project existed already at that time. They were planning on setting this up on some Carribean island to avoid laws on cloning.
The Raeliens are for real...They believe that Jesus was an Astronaut/alien, or something like that. Sounds like a Chris DeBurg song. They are a Canadian export from Quebec. Part of their worship is that they, as a group, get naked and have sex in an open field, I believe to call down the Mothership or something.
But then again, I am a Discordian Druid...so who am I to judge, I am not a Brehon!
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
I want a clone;
A clone of my own;
With a Y chromosome changed to an X.
And if this clone of my own;
Has a mind like my own;
It'll be thinking of nothing but sex.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
People forget that we already have clones in the real world - they're called identical twins. And you'll have noticed that identical twins are far from identical in behaviour, so if you clone yourself, chances are that s/he won't be that much like you. Your clone will be brought up in a different environment, with different parents, in a different technological age.
I fail to see why on Earth you'd want to clone yourself, because it's damn well not going to be your soul-mate or any other guff like that.
Funny thing about this story is that their headquarters is right in front of our offices. They are actually real nice people, and most of them only somewhat believe the Alien theory,
and are in it for the hot chicks. This is not a Heaven's Gate type of thing, it's nothing like a sect... It's more of an excuse for orgies.
They are also actively involved in a few software companies, btw.
I don't think the cloning is anything serious though, they've been talking about it for
years. I wouldn't trust a "religion" where the leader (Rael) participates in GT Races with
his Dodge Viper.
http://www.logient.com
In the 106th Congress, we have:
Whew. That wasn't that bad, now was it.
He replicated himself so that he could spend all his time playing. The clones would do his chores, do his homework, attend school, etc. However, it ended up with him doing all the work and covering up for the extra messes the clones created!
Remember, if you're devious enough to clone yourself, your clone knows this!
Besides, where will it end? The horror. What if someone cloned the people in those "Old Navy" commercials? No --- this is simply too much evil to unleash onto the planet.
We must stop at once!