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Can Linux Beat Microsoft in Education?
Booker asks: "Microsoft has been the driving force behind the Schools Interoperability Framework (SIF), a system by which education-related applications can communicate with each other via XML messages. Although Microsoft is the coordinator, the spec seems extremely open, and something that Linux applications could easily work with. Many vendors have signed on to the SIF, and it looks like it will become a standard, at least in North America. What do you think? Could Linux stake a claim as a server for this new standard? What would it take to port this code?" This would be cool. Anyone interested in tackling this one?
"One of the things Microsoft has done to support this standard is to release a Zone Integration Server which manages the queuing and authentication between the various client applications attached to it. The interesting thing, though, is that the source code is available, and the license is quite liberal - liberal enough, I think, that a Linux port would be possible.
Well, I went to the site, and was faced with this:
| To view the demo, you will need to download
| Windows Media Player or a Microsoft Media
| Player, which is available on a variety of
| platforms.
Yeah, any OS you like, as long as it's Microsoft Windows. (Well, that's not entirely true, it looks like they've got a Mac version too, but "a variety of platforms" is somewhat overstating the case, I feel.)
Then glancing through the slashdot chat, it seems that some people trying to download the specifications through Netscape were foiled by Microsoft's non-standard HTML. And further that the file is an EXE.
The underlying concept of interoperability is all very well and good, I suppose, but does anyone else see a little irony here?
--
James Gasson
I found the concept behind this thing fairly interesting, and alas, I was unable to access the coveted spec, I keep getting active server pages telling me I haven't "Registered" yet, but when I "register", all I get is a blank page with no links. Granted, I'm using Netscape in probably the mosty Netscape-hostile environment in the universe. Anyone fare better?
Quoting from around the liscence text:
Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") is the title and copyright owner of the Program and offers this License which gives the licensee ("you") the legal permission to copy, distribute, modify and/or create derivatives based on the Program. The act of running the Program is not restricted.
wow, now there's something I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.
from section 4, "disclaimer of warranties":
THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PEROFRMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFENCTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION
looks like someone needs to use a spellchecker. Sheesh. Does this void the liscense?
And of course, this would be the world's first "open" liscence to include the infamous clause:
LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. YOUR EXCLUSIVE REMEDY UNDER THIS LICENSE SHALL NOT EXCEED FIVE DOLLARS (U.S.$5.00).
heh.
Looking for open-source Educational apps?
Look no further than http://www.seul.org
They have open-source apps targetting education and some of them have incorporated the SIF standard.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
---
If you sell schools a box that doesn't need to be maintained and just plugs into their network and gets the job done year after year, I think you have a good value
Indeed, and with Linux, AS/400, Sun, what have you, that is exactly what you get. It's not about good value for these guys, or we would have no problems selling Linux, AS/400, et. al., since it would be a no-brainer.
The problem isn't with value, it's with perceptions. Even with Linux's momentum, NT is still positioned as the way to go. We just lost a sale to a district that had an AS/400, but migrated to 1/2 dozen NT boxes anyway.
Microsoft doesn't have to do anything, really, just sitting on the committee gives them de facto control, it appears to me.
In contrast, with Linux and similar systems, you can set up a number of centrally administered servers together with lots of low end clients. Since schools get a lot of donated hardware, the ability to run a Linux client (just X11 or VNC) on a 386 or 486 is an added bonus, and there is very little students or teachers can mess up on the machines they interact with.
No, we shouldn't try to "beat Microsoft" for the sake of beating Microsoft. And I have no problem with upper middle class families buying as much expensive Microsoft software as they like. However, for something as cost sensitive as schools (and paid for by my tax dollars), Microsoft is really a gold plated boondoggle. Systems like Linux get the job done much cheaper, with less system administration and less work by the end user. That's why Linux ought to play a big role, both in school administration and in teaching.
(Incidentally, I was involved in getting a networked system of computers installed at my high school, paid for by donations, so I have some experience with the kind of usage these systems see. And, no, it wasn't running Linux--this was pre-Linux.)
Linux's success in schools, like anywhere else, depends on being able to put together turnkey solutions that provide the functionality people want at a lower price and with less work. Linux has all the ingredients to do a better job there: Linux works just fine in "appliance servers" with virtually no maintenance, it runs on the lowest-cost hardware on the planet, and it supports a suite of protocols (X11, VNC, HTTP, etc.) that make building network-based "plug-and-play" solutions really easy.
If you sell schools a box that doesn't need to be maintained and just plugs into their network and gets the job done year after year, I think you have a good value proposition. Of course, if you position your product as "here is some software, but you need a system administrator to install Linux for you and configure it", a lot of the advantage of Linux goes away, because at least on the surface, that doesn't sound too different from NT.
I know back home its some backyard ISP who would not even attempt to divulge in something that is not M$.
Around here all of the 'backyard' (read as small independent start ups) ISP's use Linux and/or *BSD as their primary platforms. M$'s stuff is just too expensive, both in licenses, and also in the expensive hardware it takes to host a significant number of users. The more well heeled ISP's usually run Linux and/or *BSD, often in conjunction with Commercial *nixes.
its just meant to inter-connect them, and make them play nicely with each other...
:-(
basically, it takes the Student information app (demographics, grades, schedules) and allows it to interface nicely with the food cafeteria apps and the busing apps...
it also allows for easier state/federal reporting... which may/may not be a good thing depending on your view.
The ZIS bit could very well run on linux, and would be a good thing, if it were... the spec tends to favor an MS implementation because of its recommendation to use a multiple queueing mechanism to persist the messages that need to be passed...
Oh yeh - if you go and get teh MS source code for the ZIS - could you email me if you can actually get it to compile... because i cant
... hi bingo
MS has already backed off controlling this standard. THey have given control of it over to teh SIIA. THere was some thought that it would be less well received if MS were seen as the controller of it...
... hi bingo
In the health care industry there is a loose (i.e. loosely followed) message standard called HL7 (health level 7) which is a delimited format. However they have been working on 3.0 which is based on XML. I have heard that Microsoft is very much interested and involved in this new standard. Also I went to an XML seminar (read: marketing) where they described the BizTalk (business world XML messaging) XML standard as well as their (vaporware as of yet?) XML message server. I get the feeling MS sees XML being an important standard across all industries.
I am quite interested in exactly what kind of applications are going to be created with this standard.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
The solution the shortage of able sysadmins, of course, is to make the kids the sysadmins. George Gilder wrote this article about a school that did just that. It seems to work, and it gives some kids a chance to excel at something where they may have really hated school otherwise(sound familiar?).
>They may even have a bigger installed base than any single PC vendor (Compaq, Dell, HP), but you
> are smoking crack if you think they have a bigger market share in the edu world than all the x86 PC hardware combined.
That is especially true outside the US .... Apple doesn't seem to be particulary popular in Europe or Asia.
Gnu GPL:
You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance.
MS ZIS EULA:
Other Limitations. You may not copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance.
Gnu GPL:
7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
MS ZIS EULA:
Intellectual Property Claims. If, as a result of an intellectual property claim, conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from compliance with the terms and conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute the Program so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then you may not distribute the Program at all.
Gnu GPL:
2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions: a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any change. b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively when run, you must cause it, when started running for such interactive use in the most ordinary way, to print or display an announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this License. (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but does not normally print such an announcement, your work based on the Program is not required to print an announcement.)
MS ZIS EULA:
Modification. You may modify the Program or create derivative works and copy and distribute such modifications or derivative works, provided that you also: (i) cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any change so that the recipients know they are not receiving the original Program; (ii) cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole to all third parties under the terms of this License; and (iii) provide notice to users under the same terms of distribution as set forth in Sections 1(a)(i), 1(a)(ii) and 1(a)(iii) above.
-- THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK -- --
I gave the license a once-over look and I don't think it is any kind of Free software, either from a BSD, GPL, or OSD perspective.
v ersions sense either.
Yes it has the advertising clause a la old-school BSD license. It does provide the right to redistribute modifications, however it does not give you the right to restrict the rights of those you sell your version of the program to, so it is not really like BSD at all. It would be more like GPL except there are other things that make it not like GPL.
Firstly, you do not have the right to run the software for any purpose you wish. It says "Educational use only." I assume this means, running in an educational environment as opposed to education from the program itself but it is still a discriminator license that would NOT meet the open source definition.
Unlike any Free software license I've ever seen, you cannot charge fees to license the software. However they leave gaping loopholes for what you can charge for so it is not that big a deal.
I see no mention of source code (does that apply to this product? I'm only looking at the license posted and not what the product itself is) so I'm not sure if it qualifies as free software in the GPL sense. It isn't free in the BSD I-can-do-whatever-I-want-including-making-closed-
I don't think I'll need to give grounds as I claim that linux (or whatever free OS, mind you, so better get to it :) is The Choice of Schools. Inexpensive, yet powerful, robust agains misuse (damned script-kiddies) etc, I could carry on for hours. The thing that is keeping linux from schools is the lack of experience with them.
Now, if every (most) schools would get a chance to get a linux server running locally, even if it was maintained by an outsider, it just might be enough to wake up the teachers' interest in it. When there's already one, it's not quite as hard to get another one.
As kids study how to use computers (what's the correct term for this?) and eventually learn it (linux), it'll be a lot easier to get a linux computer home as well.
There's always a downside. The one in this might be that if the teachers aren't skilled enough, the dream could turn into a nightmare: kids knowing the OS better (they already do, but FAR better) than the system administrators. That could turn up a new generation of script kiddies. This time they had the chance to practice their skills full time and on real systems with real (= dumb) users. Prevent that.
Any product you choose must be safe (for you, not for the end-user). If there is any chance you might be criticised for your choice, it's not worth the risk, even if it's free. The upside, if any, won't help you, the down-side certainly will hurt you.
First cost is important:savings which don't show up in this budget cycle are generally meaningless. Ongoing costs are important too, in a perverse way: a purchase which requires a large, continuing expense is job security for the administrator who has gotten it approved into his budget. If you then tell this administrator that you have a solid alternative which is free to buy and far lower cost to operate, do you think he'll be happy? You've made him look like a fool, and shrunk his budget. That's how civil service underlings get fired.
Other than the all-important issue of keeping the budget as big as possible, money really doesn't matter. It's not your money, it's yours to spend! That's very different. And the greatest sin of all is letting the fiscal year end without having used up your entire budget. That makes it plain that you didn't need such a big budget in the first place. That makes everyone unhappy (except the taxpayers, but screw them, they have no influence that matters to government employees)
The questions we ask in the private world include:
None of these things really matter in government service. There the important points are:Microsoft is safe today, and expensive, just as IBM was safe and expensive twenty years ago. If you put together a superior product, expect to see it used by school clubs, and so on, who weren't getting any funding, anyway. Don't expect it to make great inroads anywhere things go out for bid, even though the price is $0.00. There are legal ways to turn down the low bidder, if you've written your spec's right.
Nels
See what I've been reading.
most systems (if not all ) in the science and health professions are already running UNIX based shells. excluding MIT and Harvard, take smaller more prominent universities like Carneigie Mellon and Duquesne University (both in pittsburgh) for example. other than the use of NT in computer labs for the students to work on projects with... all of the quantitative and qualitative analysi are done with UNIX, SGI, or SPARC. its just the path for the future. as our society becomes more scientificly centered, the use of these machines increases. prior knowledge of these machines would make or break a job employment oppertunity (less training, more money saved).
its a great idea... just as long microsoft doesnt go and change the standard to fit their lazy needs
Q.Is the specification based on Microsoft technologies?
A.No. The SIF specification is based on the W3C endorsed standard Extensible Markup Language (XML). It defines common data formats and high-level rules of interaction and architecture, and <i>is not linked to a particular operating system or platform</i>. [emphasis their's]
Interesting. If only one good thing has come out of the anti-trust trial, it is that distrust in Microsoft has now reached the point where they are actually saying, in so many words, "we're not locking you into this" whenever they endorse a new spec or technology.
ZIS EULA
-----------------------------------------------
MICROSOFT LICENSE AGREEMENT
FOR ZONE INTEGRATION SERVER
By modifying or distributing the Zone Integration Server (the "Program") or any modifications or derivatives based on the Program, you indicate your acceptance of this License and all its terms and conditions for copying, distributing or modifying the Program. There is no warranty for the Program.
Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") is the title and copyright owner of the Program and offers this License which gives the licensee ("you") the legal permission to copy, distribute, modify and/or create derivatives based on the Program. The act of running the Program is not restricted.
License Grant. Subject to the restrictions in Section 2 below, your use of the Program is as follows:
Use and Copy of Source Code. You may copy and distribute the Program source code exactly as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you (i) conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice, if applicable, and disclaimer of warranty; (ii) keep intact all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty; and (iii) give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License along with the Program. All recipients must receive the same rights you have. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein.
Modification. You may modify the Program or create derivative works and copy and distribute such modifications or derivative works, provided that you also: (i) cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any change so that the recipients know they are not receiving the original Program; (ii) cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole to all third parties under the terms of this License; and (iii) provide notice to users under the same terms of distribution as set forth in Sections 1(a)(i), 1(a)(ii) and 1(a)(iii) above.
DESCRIPTION OF OTHER RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS.
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An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I must say I agree. While M$ is doing it's best to beat others, I think we should try to be better. Offer a hand instead of spitting on them. If we could offer nice interoperability between Windows and UNIX machines, it wouldn't perhaps be as big a step to go from Win32 to UNIX...
Just this kind of misuse linux (or whatever UNIX. I'm not going to repeat this again, so s/linux/whatever UNIX/) would stand up to. Have every user an account of their own (or instead, one for every teacher and kids'd share one read-only account). And a nice, pre-configured configs should any of the teachers mess their GUI up.
How well do X terminals stand just cutting the power?
You stole my line...
As government institutions, they follow a number of arcane rules on procurement. So an Open Source alternative will have an uphill fight to gain acceptance. Some thoughts:
Most government agencies work off of bids for products. This usually doesn't match the business model of the OS corps, so it makes us look worse on paper. Also, the government is notoriously inept at signing seemingly good contracts with vendors of proprietary equipment. Of course, when the vendor's equipment saddles them with a transition cost of going to a competitor or Opens Source alternative, they again look at the options and decide that it is most cost effective to pay more for the proprietary product. This is akin to 'no money down', huge monthly payments.
Another problem is the idea of working with a traditional vendor vs. newer better ones. Government procurement 'experts' are not typically very up on modern technology, and typically have arcane rules designed around reality circa five-10 years ago. Mention a modern business model and they look at you like you just landed from mars.
Procurement, even at the local level, is usually a bureaucratic and time-consuming process. In the past, the reward was a huge captive market. But the economics of software makes not worth it except for large companies with large legal departments (like MS).
Finally, especially in school systems, it is nearly impossible for a company to deal with someone who has authority. Most times, the multiple steps in the process mean that you have to deal with conflicting agendas and have a product that is all things to all people.
Not to throw a wet blanket like this, but take a deep breath and ask around before trying to be a government contractor. Unless you are very lucky and clever, you'll get annihilated by it.
First Post!
The goal shouldn't be to "beat Microsoft" in this market. I do service work for a few schools and the teachers are probably the worst of all users whom I've encountered.
Just yesterday, the school I was at had a stack of service request forms and nearly half of them were because one idiot teacher saw that some kids had deleted an alias from the desktop and thought that the computers were broken.
These people aren't going to embrace linux. They've struggled long and hard to be able to turn on and turn off Windows and MacOS machines. Most of them don't have the desire or the ability to learn to use linux.
It's already known that linux can compete with M$ in the server arena. We won't be able to, nor should we want to bankrupt M$. The goal is to have as many choices as possible. MacOS, Linux, *BSD, Windows (whatever), BeOS, and straight old fashioned *NIX are all acceptable OSes for a given task.
M$ will be around in some form or another for the forseeable future, because so many business and governments have invested their futures in it's products. What we need as an atmosphere of healthy and honest competition.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Nathan Whitehead
Also, it seems to share a number of RMS's requirements, such as the patent issue. From MS's license:
This is quite interesting. I suspect this license would fall under the open source guidelines, and quite possibly qualify as Free Software as well.
Is this a first from Microsoft? Does this mark a quiet change in strategy, or are they just making sure that they can avoid any legal issues? I suspect government contracts might have provisions against the use of proprietary stuff. Or they should, not that that's stopped the people in my school district... They seem to enjoy locking students into only using Word or some such.
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.