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Perl Creative Daemon Contest
eisen writes "We are pleased to announce the Perl Creative Daemon
Content sponsored by Mother of Perl, O'Reilly,
Stonehenge Consulting, and Whirlwind Interactive.
The First, Second, and Third place entries will win
a copy of the book "Mastering Algorithms with Perl".
In addition the First place entry will win $300.
The Second place entry will win $200. The deadline
for submitting entries is April 15th. Randal Schwartz
has graciously volunteered to judge the entries.
More information including contest rules are available
at the contest homepage."
I find it amusing that some 2 bit jackass like yourself tries to trivialize criminality. It's that very mentality which holds us back. The plain truth is Randall is a convicted felon deservedly so.
3 out of 4 aint bad. he he.
I am the person who posted the original post in this thread and no, I did not reply to my own post. You can choose to believe that if you like, but much like the points you have tried to make, it appears you have an uncanny ability to shape reality to fit your perception.
By the way, I'm not a sysadmin but if you believe breaking the law makes you a great sysadmin, God bless your employers and your family.
Nope, it wasn't me Dooley. Face facts, buddy. There a lot of people who are on to the defendant. You may worship at the Schwartz altar but there are many of us who despise criminals and refuse to exalt him for his "expertise" in Perl.
what points did you make? you testified to the defendant's character. You know what? Ted Bundy had people testify to his character, also. I'm not trying to compare the defendant to a mass murderer but my point is simple: Human beings are complex creatures. None of us are solely good or evil. I am sure that the defendant has made valid contributions but the fact remains that he broke the law and was justly convicted. His intentions may have been altruistic, but as an experience worker he should have had the common sense to bring his superiors in on his little experiments.
In some ways I do feel sorry for the defendant. He obviously had not developed relationships with the right people at Intel. Perhaps if he weren't so busy trying to be the super hero he would have invested more time in his people skills. Perhaps that would have prevented this situation from going any further. You're probably in the same boat. I hope you watch yourself.
Good to see Uber out and about tonight.
Regards, TM
MR_BILL'S DOCTOR SAID HE NEEDED MORE FIBER IN HIS DIET AND NOW I CAN NOT LOCATE MY FDDI CABLES! WHERE HAVE THEY GONE TO? WHEN WILL IT END?
Just because it's a little unpleasant with the corporate mongers, doesn't mean it's not a valid /. comment that is thought out, fairly accurate and seems to be an honest opinion. Move it up, this is what /. is all about, freedom to post relative content on topic and straightforward.
If I didn't post already I'd give a +1 myself.
Thank you
I have enough things to worry about in my Unix network - someone like Randal Schwartz trying to compromise my security is dearly unwanted, whatever the reason may be.
My website will be open soon. I'll be sure to advertise the hell out of it on slashdot.
how about $10.24 ?
I would have compassion if Schwartz would admit his guilt. To this day he has conspired with his cronies to paint Intel as engaging in some sort of witch hunt. I have no compassions for criminals who do not show remorse for their actions.
WOW Great link. A coracopia of information on the scumbag.
I'm not sure why you thought this, but whatever. Anyway, I'm also not a sysadmin. I'll probably never be able to get another corporate job again. You see, my employer over ten years ago, a large corporation, asked me (actually, demanded and eventually threatened me) to do something illegal. When they got nasty (I was carrying a gun after being surrounded by a group of them brandishing baseball bats), I turned them in. It was very messy and even when all was finished and I was declared the good boy, I was harassed into leaving. I'd do it all again too because it was the right thing. So don't you fucking tell me about duty and what anyone owes their employers.
As for "his" books, spend some time on #perl and you'll find out the real story. Schwartz only claims nameglory. He doesn't really *WRITE*, and hasn't for many many years. Call it resting on his laurels, but I call it sitting on his ass.
Why don't you give credit to someone who actually produces? Go read the Changes file in the 5.6 release. You'll know who's who. That fat loudmouth is just a leech and a hangeron who couldn't program his way out of the lockup if he had to. Being the world's most vainglorious alcoholic is nothing to respect someone for.
perldude from #perl
Oh, so you're the one Shwortsie gets his BJs from, eh?
Hackers respect those who hack. He doesn't. He's just a script kiddie who cracks.
read some of his usenet rants about the GPL ... hee hee. He's not a fraud though - he really is whacky.
its like a hundred line (max) program. The real havoc can be caused when you run it on multiple machines on multiple networks and each instance can pipe through anyone of numerous open proxies, anonmiziers, or ips. Imagine the havoc. Coding it is no problem although I bet the /. nazi's would huypcritically sue the bastard who released the program (if they found out who that is) that is really only meant to disseminate information.
If $300 isnt worth your time, dont enter. As for me, im going to try to win, so i can contribute my winnings to the defense fund for Mumia Abu Jamal. FREE MUMIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you can't see the genius of Randal, you're BLIND! You only WISH your meager existence could accomplish what Randal has. Intel sucks for trying to make an example of Randal. How many of you could have ended up in the same predicament? Think about it - How many times have you done things at work like he did? HE WAS DOING HIS JOB AS ADMINISTRATOR. Maybe if this happened today with all the media-hype about "hackers", then his actions would have been construed as preventative as they should have been. Randal: Good luck with the appeals process!!!!
Your post deserves a -1, "I wish I was a moderator." Maybe another -1, "If it pisses someone off, it must be good."
YOU DIDN'T RUN OVER MY MOTHER! YOU ATE HER!
the files have a .zip suffix. what util unzips those on linux environment?
For all of you people who always complain about Rob's skills in maintaining /. why don't you write a daemon that will do a better job of getting rid of the trolls?
This guy is a liar just like all Anonymous Cowards are. If he had any guts he would Log In and assume Full Responsibility for his words.
The fact is, Randal Schwartz is not a criminal. He was never convicted for any felony. He never worked at Intel, and never stole any password or other sort of information. Randal Schwartz is not a cracker.
Don't believe a single word of those Anonymous Coward posts!
Wow, that ELZA script is pretty damn cool. I was looking for a scripting tool which would allow me to log into a hotmail or yahoo account and get my new mails. I considered Rebol but it doesn't have nearly enough features. Python or Java? Puhleeze... I realized it would have to be written in Perl but the task seemed painful (consider the redirects, HTTPS, and cookie thorns you have to get around). Kudos to Philip Stoev. Lots of dickheads will use this to get their rocks off but thanks for a great tool. People could use this to pull together all sorts of information from many different sites for a truly personalized webpage. Sort of like XML-RPC or SOAP without the bullshit or hype. Once again, Perl rules so screw you object-oriented pimping overengineered-language coding small-minded drones.
unzip
Despite this being true, there are.. well, simply put, a LOT of felons out there. And a lot of people who just never got caught either. I'll admit to having treaded on the edge of the law, crossing the line to illegal a few times. Software piracy comes to mind. I've poked around on computers where I probably shouldn't have been too. I'm just lucky to have not been caught.
:-) )
So what if this guy's charges weren't computer related? If he, say, drove drunk once, or stole something once? Would we treat it the same for the purposes of him being the judge? There's a reason there's a criminal justice system, so people go to jail and do their time. They make it up to society for what they took. He did his time. Yes, it reflects on his moral character, but if he's a smart man he won't do it again so as not to be a repeat offender.
I also don't see how letting him be the judge is in the least bit hypocritical. He's the judge because he's good at Perl. What the hell else matters? I don't condone what he did, but he still deserves to be a member of society.
(posting AC, I just realized what I wrote about myself
What the fuck is it about perl coders? I mean, only comp.lang.c has more grumpiness and sarcasm per byte.
The only crime Randal is truly guilty of is being a supreme Perl God(TM).
It wouldn't suprise me a bit if you were the clueless luser -- 'PurlGurl' (of clpm infamy)
...but if he's a smart man he won't do it again so as not to be a repeat offender.
There is ample evidence that Schwartz is a habitual offender of the very practices that landed him a felony conviction Schwartz is the type of individual who believes he is above the law in these respects because of his so-called expertise. Please review the link that I provided up above.
I also don't see how letting him be the judge is in the least bit hypocritical. He's the judge because he's good at Perl. AWhat the hell else matters? I don't condone what he did, but he still deserves to be a member of society.
I don't have a problem with Schwartz personally. I do have a problem with his lack of contrition and remorse. His attitude with regard to his activities lead me to believe that he has not learned his lesson and that he may have proclivity to committ crimes of this nature in the future. As such, I cannot bless his endeavors. I cannot purchase his books. I do not support unremorseful felons of any sort. I am sorry but Randall's expertise in Perl does not give him Carte Blanche with regard to the legal system and his obligation to society.
Sycophants like you allow Randall to be dismissive of our court system. Fortunately, syocphants like you are typically followers and not in positions of power like the noble prosecutors who convicted Randall. Whether I am a clueless luser or not is not germaine to Randall's status as a felon.
it is the job of the defense to explain the case. if you feel the subject matter is too difficult for the jurors, you have all the right in the world to bring in experts to explain. I don't think it's too difficult to understand that Mr. Schwartz abused his position of power in Intel's computer network by running unauthorized software to unencrypt passwords without approval by his superiors. To claim afterwards that he did so to help Intel seems selfserving.
My trolling account is currently at karma -6, and I don't have the "Post Anonymously" button.
You should both accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal Savior and stop arguing. Thank you.
This (bashing of Randal) is almost certainly a troll,...
why, because it differs from your opinions of the matter?
but I'll reply for the benefit of those who don't already know.
too late. I already beat you to it.
because many people who work with computers are in danger of similar prosecution if they piss off the wrong person.
and they're also in danger if they commit felonious acts.
So before you condemn Randal, answer this: have you ever accessed a corporate information resource without explicit authorization? If you say no, and you work in a large, heterogeneous corporate environment, I can rest assured that you don't get much accomplished.
I don't know where you work, but I sure would be interested if you would tell me. I will make sure to never submit my resume there. Where I work, we follow procedures for getting access to information.
The real problem here is that the average person (judge, juror) has so little understanding of how computers work that many innocent actions can be portrayed as criminal.
oh goodie, more apologist rhetoric. I like the typical ploy to paint the system as unintelligent boobs having no place judging "expert" users like Mr. Schwartz. We've heard it all a million times. It didn't wash the first time. It doesn't wash this time.
Ever grepped a password file?
nope
Anyway, if someone has a serious reason to disbelieve Randal's side of the story, please post it or a link to it. In the 4+ years since the conviction, I haven't seen any.
The mind has a curious way of reinventing history to suit its own purpose There is ample evidence out there. You need to lift your blinders.
The jury found Randal guilty after hearing the defense testimonies and arguments. You seem to want to absolve him without even knowing what grep does.
We are sick of dealing with you PHBs at work. Leave us alone here.
they get a little uptight because us real programmers laugh at them.
he was convicted of illegally breaking into Intel's computers while he worked as a consultant for them. He placed software on computers to snag passwords as users logged on. He kept a record of these recorded passwords and fraudently logged in as these people. When he was busted he admitted his guilt but said he wasn't trying to do anything illegal. Randal has a history of placing backdoor's into computer systems so he can "explore".
There are a lot of links on this. Most of them are aplogist garbage put out by Randall and his cronies. Randall is a convict and I will have nothing to do with anything that is associated with him.
Lose the nacho cheese sauce but keep on the lingerie and I will pleasure you all night. I am wearing a fuzzy white sweater, red plaid skirt, and navy blue kneesocks and really want to be someone's bad little schoolgirl for the night.
Hell, he got off light... stealing passwords? That's damn wicked. Look at what they did to Mitnick... there's no justice letting Schwartz continue using a computer to earn a living. I don't care if I did learn Perl from his book, I now feel dirty and shamed by O'Reilly for buying and reading it. How many other O'Reilly books are authored by felons?
that damn link is fucking hilarious! Where's the endorsement from Richard Gere?
Well if he doesn't remorse at all for what he did then my respect for him is diminished. There is only so far, however, that he can go before he gets caught again if his intent is to continue to commit crime. Criminals get caught. Especially repeat offenders because people take notice after the first time.
:-)
On this note, I have doubts that he would repeat offend. Despite his attitute toward the legal system (one I occaisonally share upon hearing of some legal decisions made in this world), I doubt he would further endanger his carreer and life. The ball is in his court to play, and he still deserves to play.. Provided he doesn't throw any more rackets at the net
I believe the BeOS is written in more or less straight OOP C++.
Sure, it's not common, but I suppose it's fair to say it's "production".
And your reply was just as filled with rhetoric as the one you reply to. Do you want to lay out some EXAMPLES? You babble about there 'being ways to do things' and 'ample evidence', but it's obvious that you're so GLARINGLY correct that it can remain unspoken.
$300 ?
Is this a joke ?
This sounds like it is only twice as bad as the past of 1/2 of the open source liminaries out there. Execpt this guy got cought. Who cares, we have all done a little of ths stuff.. this guy just did a little more then most. It's not like this stuff really hurts anyone.
more excuses from a Perl junkie. that is to be expected, I guess. heaven forbid you look at the case objectively and remove your biases. I don't care what the defendant did prior to committing his felonies. Criminals can be the most charming people in the world. It still doesn't excuse their criminality. That is the problem with a lot of people -- They idolize people and forgive them for their transgressions, regardless of whether they are deserving.
Like I said before, i'm glad I don't work in your company. You sound like an equally offensive person.
I posted a link in a prior post. follow it and learn.
Zico knows warez. This site is awesome and renews my faith in Russia!
Reflections
I like to take my pants
And in them I pour hot grits
Then I wank myself to climax
By licking Natalie Portmans' clit.
Thank you for your time, please hold your applause
Tony the Tiger says "They're Gr-r-reat!®"
What dose Java have to do with this story? We all know Java sucks big harry donky balls.
Regarding the Python vs. Perl debate.. who cares? It's a personal style thing. Personally, If I'm fealing practical and want to write something today then I use Perl. If I'm fealing all theoretical and want to write something for the intelectual enjoyment of doing it the right way then I use Haskell.
Python's supposed advantages over Perl come from the bullshit side of CS langauge theory (object oriented paradim bullshit). There is god shit in CS langague theory, but it's functional and all based on crazy category theory and monads.. very fun math.. and very rigorous. If someone makes a nice functional langauge with all the features of Perl or Python then I'll use that, but I'm not selling out my effeciency of writing code in perl for a stupid object oriented language based on two bit unfounded and unresearched assumptions about the psychology of programmers.
MRBILL ATE MY SLASHDOT POST!
Someone once posted here a first-posting perl script but Rob & co fascistly removed it. I would give 300$ of my own money to see a daemon that first posts to slashdot, closes all extraneous file handles, etc. Whoever comes up with that will have have the GREATEST DAEMON in the world.
Let's see.
#Start
Call L0phtcrack
Call Bruteforce
you get the picture. What kind of judge whould he be? Who can write perl daemons that can sniff out passwords and snoop on systems without getting tagged.
"pleased to announce the Perl Creative Daemon Content "
I believe it should read contest..EST EST not ent..
proofreading..it works.
--
|-_-| . o O ( bEef!)
To be considered for entry, the submission must follow the following basic requirements:
Should fork from it's parent process
Must disassociate itself from a controlling terminal
Change working directory to /
Close unneeded filehandles
Set umask to 0
Perl Creative Troll Contest Rules
To be considered for entry, the submission must follow the following basic requirements:
Should troll from it's parent post
Must disassociate itself from karma whoring
Change working homepage to /.
Close unneeded spam accounts
Set karma to 0
.
Take all good things in moderation, including moderation.
What exactly is a creative daemon content anyway?
Maybe we should have a Proofreading contest instead.
.
Take all good things in moderation, including moderation.
Monads? Do you mean Monod's named after Jacques Monod?
..." ...). This means that the programmer can access and use a very large base of existing code. Java is more crippled in this respect, Sun produces the extensions internally and based on their own priorities. It is trivial to gain the functionality of outside components in Python, it assimilates existing code with ease, often only requiring a simple wrapper. Java's strictness in it's language definition seems to extend into its librarys as well, and it's not so easy to extend in the manner you see fit (Re, Sun vs. Microsoft but as Python is completely Open Source it does not share the ethical considerations of this example - no self interests).
Here's a short excerpt out of Metamagical Thema's by Douglas R. Hofstadter (ISBN:0-465-04540-5, compilation of material published 1981-1983) where he discusses Monod's work (from the chapter titled: "Waking Up from the Boolean Dream"):
"...
Categories do not point to specific physical objects. However, they can be used as "masters" from which copies - instances - can be rubbed, and then those copies are activated in various conjunctions; these activations then automatically trigger other instance-symbols into activations of various sorts (teams of ants triggering the creation of other teams of ants, sometimes themselves fizzling out). The overall activity will be semantic - meaningful - if it is isomorphic, not necessarily to some actual event in the real world, but to some event that is compatible with all the known constraints on the situation.
That's quite a nice little description of the ideas that led to object orientated programming. As you can see, we owe a debt of thanks to Ants =). The proof of the above paragraph is simply the computer you are sitting in front of. Your operating system is not a tangled mass of spaghetti code because oop provides encapsulation (or individual ants) to prevent that. You don't need to know these proofs to write programs today, at the time however these proofs were needed to convince people to adopt the new way of thinking. I do not belive that you expressed complete understanding of these things in your reply to my original post. I assure you that I do understand these theory's as I am a curious old fogie.
The point is, I've evaluated Python and have decided that it is a worthy language not only because it implements a complete set of ideas from the "bullsh*t side of CS langauge theory" but also because it is Borg. And you will be assimilated.
As to how it all relates to Java, well... At the core of both languages is a strong object model, these models are almost identical just differently named. Python has the monkier of a scripting language because it does not enforce the usage of the object model. Java on the other hand is strict, and forces a complete definition for even the most trival program. Both languages come with an adequate set of supporting librarys as well, Java has Sun's "standard" extensions and Python has modules.
The Borg in Python is in how it's modules interact with other software. Python supports practically every component and communication standard in existance (COM, DDE,
Mark Twain is reputed to have said "History doesn't repeat itself but it sure does rhyme.". We've gone though a very explosive period over the last few decades, over the next few years I expect to see simplification of the successful ideas of this past explosive period. Then we'll do it all over again. It is my firm opinion that Python and other tools like it embody the beginning of this wave. Python isn't about style its about ensuring that the multibillion dollar system you wrap it around follows the KISS philosophy (Keep It Simple Stupid) and therefore is simply less likely to be broken.
I wish I had made it further into my Perl evaluation, but it is too obtuse for me, and I am old and fall asleep early.
The Night Angel.
...that he's talking about a "Creative Daemon Content" instead of "Contest"?
If this contest is indeed sponsored by O'Reilly, and Whirlwind Interactive, they could have been a bit more generous. At least they could have chosen a more even sum, like $500 or $512 ;)
A newbie to perl may want to flex his coding muscles to see if he wants what he is made of
A little competion always made things better help
http://theotherside.com/dvd/
The issue for me is not Intel's actions, but the law under which I was convicted that permitted an influential large employer in Oregon to use the public resources to handle what was essentially an internal dispute. For a good summary of what's wrong with the law, see Steven McDougall's Rant.
Regarding your last point, Extreme Programming, which embraces redesigning you class structure as often as necessary, seems to be primarily done in Smalltalk - you don't get much more pure OO than that.
I let my bosses son (a bright 7 year old) use my system when I'm away to play the video games I have installed (Mostly open source games.. stratagy etc.. he is a smart kid and I end up downloading new games for him a lot)
I was stuck with explaining to him why I would log into his account on my computer on occasion.
Try explainning this to a tech unsavy boss, A judge who never used Unix, a Jury who have no idea what "multiuser" means.
I never had to deal with this. The kid understood and even if he didn't my boss would (he dose know Unix).
Given that such a simple task as installing games for a kid could be missunderstood picture the kind of pain that comes from an admin who made someone mad.
Instead of punishing victoms of ignorence we should instead insist on tech savy in managers.
I don't actually exist.
And.......
What does this have to do with the contest?
Warn me about what? Are you frightened that he will use the submissions for some evil plot?
Or, becuase you have some grudge against him, and your just using this opportune time to feebly shoot down one of the must well respected men in the hacker community.
I wonder Mr. AC; what's you motive?
-slams
-slams
I think I can win that prize.
How about getting together a slashdot team?
No todo lo que es oro brilla
what points did you make? you testified to the defendant's character.
There is no defendant. This is a Slashdot discussion not a trial.
Ted Bundy had people testify to his character, also. I'm not trying to compare the defendant to a mass murderer
That's funny, you certainly did so. Why?
His intentions may have been altruistic, but as an experience worker he should have had the common sense to bring his superiors in on his little experiments.
Agreed. Good, glad we got that out of the way. Now, please feel free to contribute to the contest, or don't. But, if you have some problem with Randal being a judge on the contest, try bringing up a new, and pertinent point.
Python's encapsulation is iffy, at best. Although there are __private__ variables and functions, they are just mangled, and can be accessed from outside.
he was convicted of illegally breaking into Intel's computers while he worked as a consultant for them.
I'll wager all of Randall's Linux boxen boast "AMD Inside". :-)
No, he was right the first time. Monads are a technique for handling I/O in functional languages (since I/O is an imperative task). Check out chapter 18 of Simon Thompson's "Haskell: The Craft of Functional Programming" for more info. In turn, it references "Advanced Functional Programming" by Jeuring and Meijer.
Although i'm not good enough with Perl to write something like this, a cool daemon could be one that goes crazy at hte user if they type in a swear word at any time! bahaha
Mike Roberto
- roberto@soul.apk.net
-- AOL IM: MicroBerto
Berto
I think you are presenting a false dichotomy of 'spaghetti code' vs. 'OO'. The majority of code is neither - it is relatively clean, structured procedural code. In other words, large tasks are decomposed into smaller tasks (recursively) until small, understandable functions are reached. No encapsulation needed.
Spaghetti code is code that uses a lot of GOTO's (or jumps) - typically written in BASIC or assembler. Structured code can be viewed as a hierarchy of black boxes with defined inputs and outputs; spaghetti code cannot. The transition to structured code took place (mostly) long before OO.
Your post shows how either a)you're a moron or b) you're really devoid of any compassion. If he broke the law then so what if he's already served his time? He deserves to be treated like a human being again. Once they've done the time then forgive the crime.
Well I had a great idea until I saw "must work in unix" I was going to write the doze registry daemon. Goes to the background and every like 5 minutes deletes a registry key! Imagine the fun you can have! lol.
I wonder if O'Reilly considers themself (the collective self that is...) a "Sponser" or a "Sponsor"?
// Hunter, Angler, Photographer, Dad. (In no particular order.)
I hope that Python or something like it simplify's things in the mid future. Surprising to see a couple of the names on this list (NASA?! Mission Control?!), this gives me reassurance that Python will at least exist for 5 more years (Government is slow to change decisions already made). DARPA is funding the whole shebang for Python. It was accepted under this proposal called - Computer Programming for Everyone. Python is so open because Mr. Guido van Rossum has left it unrestricted attempting to help it gain acceptance. Van Rossum believes in what he's doing, he's one of the (few) people I admire and respect in terms of integrity alone. CP4E aims to establish Python (Or an improved version of it, or something completely different later on - whatever is best) as the primary language taught to our children in school. I admire this goal and I believe as GvR seems to that this new form of "literacy" will reap untold rewards.
These are my opinions, please do not construe anything I say as a statement of Mr. Van Rossum's. If in doubt email him, he does answer all his email (patience though - you never know how many emails he has on his plate at any given moment).
The Night Angel
Your right when you state that the best languages are multi-paradigm. Just because I learned the word "paradigm" doesn't mean I have to forget "different way of thinking" even if my signal-to-noise ratio is higher. Python is multi-paradigm. It has a complete object model but it is not enforced - you can program it simple batch (script other code), pre-procedurally, procedurally, object wise, or hybrids of all. ;).
Python is not strict. it doesn't force you to enter fifteen lines to define an object that tells STOUT "Hello World" - you simply enter print "Hello World" as you would in a pre-procedural language (Early Basic's, primitive subroutine support; no support for local variables the norm). If you choose to use them however, objects are there - for that moment when you need to express a subtle nuance that just isn't the same without them. I believe in the right tool for the job, and Python is a darn good swiss army knife.
C++ objects suck crap. The only reason it has accomplished anything is through the intelligence of the programmers using it. If it is brittle - your not encapsulating it; if it is not encapsulated - it cannot be object based. Please do not confuse a bad implementation with a bad idea, the world is still recovering from C++'s poisoning the well.
Your right to an extent when you say people are pattern based, but if your going to say that Perl's extension of grep's regular expression matching can contain me then I'll slap you upside the head with a large trout (We'll have to meet in IRC though =). I am more than patterns, I'm structured patterns at the least. Until a working machine intelligence is demonstrated to the world at large then nobody can pretend to know the basis of the homunculi (or those little fragments of personality that when fractally combined form a deep and responsive system - intentionally too much noise
I don't know what else to say. You have me stumped, if you don't believe objects are a good thing I must simply assume you need someone to help you go back over the territory to find the supporting knowledge that you missed. But then again you simply may not need objects for the work you currently do - in that case Python will let you program procedurally.
Sincerely,
The Night Angel
ROFL =)
Well darn. I stand corrected, thank you for clearing it up =)
Yeah your right, Java is more limited that Python but the comparison wasn't meant to be taken completely literally =) ;) I'll try to find it in the next few days, if it isn't there I guess I'll have to petition it for 1.6 (or add it to my own local source ;), I would like to add my objects together. ;).
I couldn't find parametric polymorphism on a quick seach of Python's site (Using InfoSeek's search written in Python
In Python everything including functions are first order types. Allows for some neat aliasing and extending that idea, truely generic routines that can be applied to any data (even code
What do you think about simplicity though? Every once in a while I do believe we need to collapse everything we know so that we can begin to explore with a solid footing again. Do you think Python (or Perl!) does this?
The Night Angel
From the message I was replying to:
"I think you are presenting a false dichotomy of 'spaghetti code' vs. 'OO'. The majority of code is neither - it is relatively clean, structured procedural code. In other words, large tasks are decomposed into smaller tasks (recursively) until small, understandable functions are reached. No encapsulation needed.
Spaghetti code is code that uses a lot of GOTO's (or jumps) - typically written in BASIC or assembler. Structured code can be viewed as a hierarchy of black boxes with defined inputs and outputs; spaghetti code cannot. The transition to structured code took place (mostly) long before OO."
The context of the message implies that the programmer is extending the language through ideas a programmer uses while programming, I read the above description and I see an object hierarchy with encapsulated modules within it. The language and the compiler do not enforce this - the programmer does. Outside of this context what I said begins to lose sense.
I have my own experience doing this, on my old Amiga, using a language called AMOS I programmed a GUI. AMOS was a dialect of basic with some nice (for the time) graphic extensions. All the code for my GUI was written in a procedural langauage, but all the logic & data were object based. I wrote a minidatabase for the GUI to use which stored qualitive data - it had routines to pack itself to disk and rebuild from the same that does in effect what serializing does in Java and pickling does in Python.
The Night Angel
And pass the gravy.
The Night Angel.
Oops =) Please accept my apologies, "crazy category theory and monads..", Category theory send me down the wrong branches and I arrived at monods first.
Software Carpentry is running a contest with $200000 in prizes to be given away. Of course the final product will be coded in Python but that doesn't mean you can't prototype in Perl (although in a close match...).
Heh, I see a ton of Perl vs Python articles, it amazes me how people can completely miss the point. Research Python a bit. Research Java a bit. Python is a more flexible Java. Python's support librarys are inherited from too many open source projects to mention. Java has a ton of Sun proprietary standard extensions. Plus hopefully the one you want coming soon =) Sorry to be a bit off topic here, but go check out the above site for the money, the tools they want to develop will benefit the entire open source community regardless of language.
And of course if you want to check out Python, go here.
If he's served his time, then his record is completely irrelevant. It might be irrelevant in any event but I haven't finished baking my ethics on that one...
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
THAT SURE IS SOME GREAT PRIZE!!!
I also don't have an "anti-Intel" agenda. See another post I made to this thread to see how Intel is still a client of mine! If some of my supporters have an "anti-Intel" agenda, it's not from my encouragement.
So you'd have no problem hiring a sicko like Patrick Naughton or a racist criminal like Al Sharpton or the KKK member recently released after vandalizing a synagogue?
Once they've done their time, including probation, the government has no business messing with them anymore. However, if you as a person have no problem associating with the likes of them, I think you'll find that a lot of people would have problems associating with you and your questionable ethics.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
He's a murderer who hasn't even claimed not to have been involved in his crime. Lucky for him, he has an army of clueless, white, suburban liberal kiddies (who of course feel guilty for having been born into the oh-so-oppressive white race) fighting his battles for him. I can't wait 'til they pull the switch on that street thug.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Just go to http://corvin.spb.ru/ and you can download the entire Perl CD Bookshelf (as well as the Web Developer Library and Java Reference Library) from O'Reilly for free. Of course, O'Reilly charges around $60 for each of these, but hey, the guys running the site are Open Source, Linux, and Slashdot groupies, and we all know how altruistic and giving such types are, so I'm sure they're just doing it for the good of the community. Information wants to be free, right?Judging by the large number of similar sites out there, I guess it really does.
Then again, maybe things like this are why O'Reilly's is putting up only 300 bucks for the winner. :)
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Randal is well known as one of the most selfless members of the Perl community. He spent years helping others on USENET for NO PAY. He's the author of one of the most respected introductory language texts in existance. I say this, not to appologize for his actions, but to demonstrate the truth of his central claim in the case: he did what he did because it was in his basic nature to try to help others, and it never occured to him that that help would be mis-interpreted. And what's more, his actions in the case in question were exactly how a lot of us were dealing with security probelms at work at the time.
I know that I did exactly what Randal did. He was "found out" before he could report his findings. I managed to get info to the admins in that department before that happened. Neither of us thought twice about it. We were just doing the right thing for the people who depended on technology that they didn't understand. I would have been stunned if anyone had been upset by what I did. When I heard about Randal, I almost threw up. It was just stupid, and it scared me. Today, I'm much less productive, because I don't take chances. Of course, I really don't have this problem NOW, because all of the company's production hardware is my domain. I don't have to answer to anyone about logging into/examining security on any of the systems.
You're supposed to submit your entry as "a MIME attachment". So, it counts if I submit a 1280x1024 scanned JPEG of the source, right? ;-)
Actually, I am going to enter. I have a plan that will either get a quick chuckle or win the prize... we'll see.
I note that you responded to none of the points that I made. Far from being objective....
Please troll someone else's reputation. Randal has too much history of being honorable and helpful to be harmed by your rants.
I'm not perl guru, but I'd say the loosers like me would get a lot more out of a good perl book than the winners. :) Lets start a free books for the loosers movement. Sheldon
they could have been a bit more generous. :-) Second, think of how much your market value will rise if your new boss sees this on your resume. (Untill he found out that you did this during worktime and that is the reason you're looking for a new job :-)
First you should be in it for the honour
Use Adsense for Charity
I disagree. What Randall did was as qrong as you can get. As for the reference to 1/2 the open source liminaries, I also disagree. Randall did a lot more than most, frankly I feel he got off ver easy. Theft is theft, plain and simple, in my view I place in the same punk kid catagory as Mitnick. I think the guys is a disgrace and the assumption that "Everyone does it, he just got caught" is incorrect, everyone does not hijack passwords, break into corporate systems or steal.
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
An educational language should come with source - otherwise, I really don't see its usefulness as an education tool. Part of a language is its implementation - students need to be able to poke under the hood.
As it stands, the current pro-Java movement in education has been undertaken by profs who have fallen victim to Java hype. They have turned their classrooms into Sun training centers, and in turn are cheating their students out of a full programming education, which must include detailed research of the tools they are using.
XP is a group of practices, not a coding methodology per se. It really has nothing to do with any particular language, and if memory serves correct, Kent never endorses on language over another.
Yes, it looks good on paper. So does ML. That doens't mean it stands up very well to daily mangling, constant hacking, and continuous rework. Thats why perl and C are popular - they don't force a strict paradigm on you (all truly useful languages are multi-paradigm). Perl in particular maps very well to the psychology of human programmers - human think in terms of patterns, and perl is literally a pattern detection language.
Yet, people still continue to sniff the glue. Right now, out there, someone is using Rational Rose to construct a highly convoluted object hierarchy, mixing in as much Rumbaugh/Jacobson/Booch mumbo-jumbo as possible.
Then they'll implement and test. Chances are they'll find their model extremely brittle...the moment the first requirement change breaks their cute little hierarchy, they'll understand how they've been suckered.
There are no popular operating systems built with OO tools. Your conjecture is false.
As to how it all relates to Java, well... At the core of both languages is a strong object model
Java does not have a strong object model. It offers neither functions as first order types, parametric polymorphism, or even simple consistency. There is no ability to circumvent polymorphism and the overhead incurred - the virtual keyword is assumed. Java is OO for idiots.
The Borg in Python is in how it's modules interact with other software.
Pelr talks as many protocols as python and more. By the way, this has nothing to do with OO at all in any case.
This means that the programmer can access and use a very large base of existing code
CPAN has at least ten times as many packages for perl as any other competing service for any other language. Its not even close.
I wish I had made it further into my Perl evaluation, but it is too obtuse for me
Oh I am so sick of hearing this. Its not sanskrit for God's sake - just open Programming Perl and start reading. If a twelve year old can do it (and many have), you can too.
here's some info on the case.
# load required modules /: $!"; /dev/null: $!FIRST POST;; /dev/null: $!FISRT POST;; /dev/null: $!NOFIRSTPOST;;
use strict;
use POSIX qw(setsid);
use LWP::Simple;
# set costants
my $URL = 'http://www.slashdot.org/';
my $FILE = '/tmp/firstpostbaby.html';
# flush the buffer
$| = 1;
# daemonize the program
&daemonize;
# first post infinite loop
while(1) {
# mirror the file
mirror($URL,$FILE);
# wait for 20 seconds
sleep(20);
}
sub daemonize {
chdir '/' or die "Can't chdir to
open STDIN, '/dev/null' or die "Can't read
open STDOUT, '>>/dev/null' or die "Can't write to
open STDERR, '>>/dev/null' or die "Can't write to
defined(my $pid = fork) or die "Can't fork: $!";
exit if $pid;
setsid or die "Can't get a first post, start a new session: $!";
umask 0;
}
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
Think about it. If the winner writes the most creative daemon on the planet, what does he/she need a book about mastering algorithms for?
;-)
At least money is involved, so the prize isn't _all_ useless...
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
This (bashing of Randal) is almost certainly a troll, but I'll reply for the benefit of those who don't already know. Randal was convicted of three felony counts for performing tasks that essentially fell within his professional scope as sysadmin. Read the whole story. It's worth learning about, because many people who work with computers are in danger of similar prosecution if they piss off the wrong person. So before you condemn Randal, answer this: have you ever accessed a corporate information resource without explicit authorization? If you say no, and you work in a large, heterogeneous corporate environment, I can rest assured that you don't get much accomplished. If you say yes, you are confessing to the crux of the charges against Randal. The real problem here is that the average person (judge, juror) has so little understanding of how computers work that many innocent actions can be portrayed as criminal. Ever grepped a password file? Now picture how that could sound in court. Anyway, if someone has a serious reason to disbelieve Randal's side of the story, please post it or a link to it. In the 4+ years since the conviction, I haven't seen any.