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The Oldest Knives In The Solar System
al-bob writes: "For the person who has everything: handmade knives crafted from meteorites! These are beautiful knives with handles and/or blades made from extraterrestrial source materials. The guy bills them as the 'oldest knives in the solar system.' As someone said, 'not for the light of wallet'.
" So, anyone wants to think of me for my next birthday ...
I could have sworn McLeod's sword (the one he picked up when Ramirez lost his head) was a very special Japanese Katana. I am not 100% sure if this is the same sword (movie) as in the series but this type of sword has was very special indeed. As explained to me by an expert in oriental antiques and armor, these swords were forged rather ceremoniously and were made of two types of steel. The 'Shingane' metal of the sword was a very low carbon steel and wasy very soft and provided great flexibilty in the final blade. The 'Kawagane' was the second steel used and was a very high carbon steel and is primarily responsible for the sharpness. A good sword maker typically controlled and increased additional carbon levels in his forge by a special process where the sword would be placed on the top of the hotest coals as new coals were pushed underneath them and allowed to burn. When the coals had burned to the original levels the sword would be taken out and worked while more coals were added. The swords were folded exactly 19 times. I cannot remember why exactly the number 19 but I beleive it was a superstition as the Japanese culture made powerful associations with specific numbers (ie 4 is bad luck ala 13 in the US yet 3 is very lucky ala 7 here). This number of folds has been debated vigorously for a long time. I understood it that 524,288 layers provided an unique combination of strength, flexibilty and the capability to keep an extremely sharp edge. (I have heard many times the number is 20 but the amount of layers created at 20 folds negated the effect and made for a very sharp very brittle sword.) Sword makers would sharpen swords and mark the 'Nakago' (tang) with a body count, the date, and thier signature each time the sword was serviced. The other sword bearing the mark of the Clan McLeod may have been damascus, this may be the sword you are referring to but I am unfamiliar with the particulars of it. Time to look for the tapes... an unfortunate side note: the expert was Dennis Szeszler, among the worlds foremost experts in oriental arts and culture. He passed away last year a few weeks before his 53 birthday of alchoholism. Dennis was my uncle.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
The problem with any sharp cutting instrument is that through repeated use the blade wears down requiring sharpening. The harder the steel used the more it resists dulling. However, this makes it harder to sharpen to a fine edge.
On the other hand, if you use a softer steel you are able to sharpen the blade to a finer edge but it must be sharpend more often.
The intent of damascus steel was to mix two types of steel, one hard and one soft. The end result would be a blade that would resist dulling more than a soft metal blade but could be sharpened to a finer edge than a hard metal blade.
I've come across quite a few web sites where blacksmiths have either supported the use of damascus, or felt that it was a waste of time. Either way a blade made out of damascus steel looks truly unique.
There isn't a whole lot of info at this site but it does show you what a damascus blade looks like compared to a regular steel blade.
My understanding of Damascus steel knives, etc, is that separate pieces of iron and steel are first welded together. Then it is folded; the first fold yields 4 layers (since it started with 2 layers to begin with), each sucessive fold doubles the number of layers. To have 1024 layers doesn't require it to be folded 1000 times, if it were folded that many time the steel would become homogenous and lose the special qualities the technique gives it.
The alternating layers of hard and soft layers give the blade extreme flexability. The Rockwell hardness is dificult to determine, there is usually a wide variation, since it depends upon where on the blade it is tested, as well as the materials used. Etching the blade reveals the pattern of the folds and imparts a unique asthetic beauty to each blade.
Damascus regained popularity in the late 1980's when knife manufacturers learned how to mass produce these blades. I own 8 such knives produced by Parker circa 1988 to 1989.
"Open code, in other words, can be a check on state power." -Lawrence Lessig
Damascus steel is forged by folding, as are the traditional oriental blades. I think that this is a case of parellel evolution, but I'm not completely certain.
The oriental blades have two parts - a core and an outer skin. Both are folded multiple times. The outer skin is high carbon, (to hold an edge) the core is milder steel (for flexibility). This doesn't matter much for knives, but is essential if you want a katana that you can shave with and that doesn't crack when hitting a bone.
In addition to the mutiple types of steel, traditional blades are differentially tempered. A clay shell is put on the blade, the clay is thinnest on the edge. The entire unit is heated past the curie point and quenched. The Edge has the least amount of clay, so the quenching cools it the fastest. This makes the edge hard (and sharp) without making the rest of the blade brittle.
Continuing this lecture, for anybody still with us, the edge and the remainder of the skin have two distinct tempers with two distinct crystal structures. The boundary between these two areas is a visible temper line. Cheap imitations will have etched onto them something vaguely similar to a temper line for the sake of authenticity. The temper line is intentially wavy to help keep cracks from spreading.
one day in the "geek compound"...
mr. hemos: captain malda, i have determined that napster stories are bringing in three to five hundred comments a piece! think of the banner revenues!
captain malda: captain to engineering!
engineer roblimo: engineer roblimo here, sir.
captain malda: mr. roblimo... crank out some more napster stories!
engineer roblimo: but captain... the trained monkeys can't take much more! they're pulling them out of the queue as fast as they can!
captain malda: not fast enough, mr. roblimo!
engineer roblimo: we need more submissions!
captain malda: damnit, roblimo, just make something up!
lieutenant jamie: captain, we're receiving a transmission from an unidentified source.
captain malda: patch it through!
osm(over speaker): i want to open-source natalie portman's firm teen buttocks and pouting teen breasts!
helmsman emmett: captain... look!
an aibo approaches the compound.
lieutenant jamie: captain, the transmission is coming from the aibo!
captain malda: helmsman emmett... moderate it down: -2, flamebait!
helmsman emmett applies the moderation. the aibo pauses but keeps approaching.
osm (over speaker): your feeble moderation points are no match for the power of my modified aibo!
captain malda: engineering, we need more power in the moderation system!
engineer roblimo: but captain... the moderation system is at maximum power!
captain malda: i don't want excuses, roblimo... give me that power!
the aibo begins to move forward, a large antenna rises from the nose.
captain malda: mr. roblimo!
the antenna starts to glow.
captain malda: mr. roblimo!!
the antenna glows brighter.
engineer roblimo: captain! i have jerry-rigged the moderation system! i converted it to a bitchslap system!
captain malda: helmsman, fire!
helmsman emmett presses the fire button. just as an enormous comment begins transmitting through the speaker...
osm (over speaker): star (as in hot young actress) wars. a story of tender love. it is a period....
the transmission is terminated by the bitchslapping. captain malda relaxes.
captain malda: good work mr. roblimo!
mr. hemos: captain, sensors have detected that yeoman portman was beamed off the ship... into the aibo!
captain malda: lieutenant jamie, open a channel.
captain malda: osm! return yeoman portman at once!
yeoman portman (over speaker): blow it out your ass, dork! i want a real man! an open-source man! a man that knows how to caress my firm teen buttocks and suckle my pouting teen breasts! not a boy who has bad dreams and shits a lot!
osm (over speaker, clearly ecstatic): hahahahahahahahahahahaha! i took a bitchslapping for natalie portman! hahahahahahaahahahahahahaha! come natalie, i will take you to quicktrip and woo you with a vegetarian burrito. i will then take you to see the buffalo and touch you.
yeoman portman (over speaker): oh, open-source man! how my innocent teen heart has yearned for the tender touch of your open-source hand!
osm and yeoman portman (over speaker): hooray!
captain malda: cut that off!
the aibo turns and disappears. transmissions continue beaming from the aibo and are broadcast over the speaker.
captain malda: what the hell is the matter with that guy?!
dr. katz: damnit, rob, i'm a teen-angst zealot, not a psychiatrist!
captain malda (clearly infuriated): engineering!! where the hell are those napster stories?!!
i like german girls. and nannies.
Yeah, I hit it with a metorite.
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
(Posted by Uncle Al in alt.sci.physics.new-theories on 01/22/2000)
You can also check out The UL archive for more info...
-BW
While these are wicked cool if you have the cash, I just had to point out that they're not any older than anything else in the universe. If you want to go down to the level of quarks, the matter that makes up us, the knives, and the galaxies has been around for 12 billion years. Even then, as far as the formation of the solar system is concerned, our most recent data seems to show that the gas giants formed first, with the terrestrial planets all coming into existence at about the same time a few hundred million years later. Since most meteorites are either left over debris or remnants from a destroyed/failed planet between Mars and Jupiter, we basically have the knives tied, age-wise.
Anonymous Luddite: "What do you think of the dehumanizing effects of the Internet?"
Andy Grove: "Not Much."
Hmmm...I should get me one of those...
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
i would like to order a set. My, uh, girlfriend needs a few knives in her back...uh, I mean rack...she needs a few knives in her kitchen rack.
Yours Sincerely,
Orenthal James Simspon
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
Damascene steel is really an interresting material. For you Highlander fans out there this is the kind of steel used in his sword. Basically, a blacksmith pounds the metal stock flat, folds it in half and pounds it flat again. Masters of this process can be found in Japan. Often they create blades that have been folded thousands of times. Without having read any in-depth studies on what this does to the metal, I surmise that the metal crystal lattice structure becomes highly uniform/aligned perpindicular to the edge of the blade. This would make the blade stiffer when striking an object with the blade while remaining flexible from the side. In most cases some form of carbon steel is used since the layers must be beaten/fused/spot-weleded between layers. This also means that the blade must be kept very clean or surface will form rust very easily. Another problem is if the blade is poorly crafted it may delaminate between layers like the first cheap Damascus knife I bought.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Ive made glass knives for ultramicrotomy before. We used them to section samples for a transmission electron microscope. Although they dont have a single atom edge they are super sharp and easy to make. I havent done this in years so all of this is being pulled out of the haze. If you know what I am trying to say, please jump right in and flesh out the details.
Basically we took a small rectangle of quarter inch thick plate glass and scored it diagonally with a diamond cutter. Then we broke along the score and examined the sharpest edge under a low power microscope. To check the quality ISTR looking for some sort of visual effect caused by diffraction or interference. Of course we also made sure it had a nice straight, even blade. It took a few tries to get a good blade, but man was it ever sharp. These things would shave microns off of a hard plastic sample.
I dont know about making weapons out of these knives though. You might be able to fashion a decent spear head, but that is about it.
-BW
The knife in question is what is termed as an "Art Knife" (though most art knives don't venture quite so far into the rare/exotic materials category), sort of a functional work of art. How functional? Well, a priceless bit of jewelery, you can theoretically wear, but a priceless knife, you can theoretically use to prepare lunch. You might well never do either, but in theory, the knife is more practical :-)
There is quite a community of people (me included) who are fascinated by knives, and who carry one or more around as a matter of course -- perhaps not a $2100 meteorite art knife, mind you, but I do know people who carry (and use) $500 custom-made pocket knives on a daily basis. (And, by the way, the vast majority of these people are sane, rational, level-headed types, who consider their knives to be tools, not weapons.)
For the two percent or so of the studio audience who are thinking, "hmm, this meteorite knife isn't for me, but the topic of knives is interesting", I would heartily recommend these sites for further information:
This is the most popular "web-based BBS" site for discussion of all things sharp and shiny. Lively discussions with everyone from the merely curious to avid collectors, to amateur and professional knife makers, and the CEOs of some of the most highly regarded knife companies.
This online knife store is a one-man operation, a self-professed "collector turned dealer to support his habit" (and advocate for the sane use of sharp shiny things), who provides tons of good background information on the use, care, and rationale behind knives, without a hard sales pitch. My favorite place to point friends who become curious about knives.
I almost forgot to mention that thses blades also hold an edge very well. Probably due to the many stiff layers at the blade edge.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
I own one. (Not from this compamy; A decade older, secondhand from a buddy that need the money, much less expensive)
They're knives, tools. Why anyone would want one at these [assumed] prices is beyond me. I haven't even taken mine out of the Lucite case, because the manufacturer assured me that in order to maintain a high concentration of 'extra-terrestrial' material they needed to make serious comprimises on the usefulness of the implement. Soft, easily dulled, terribly malleable and often in-the-box magnetic [as is mine].
We're all proletarian; Buy yourself a nice Gerber Gatorback or a Leatherman and laugh at any fool who would buy one. The Case C10 is VERY nice, if you can find one. I've carried three, but the price on antique knives is escalating so I've switched to said Gerber.
.sig: Now legally binding!
It's a modern replica. Damascus steel is essentially very high carbon steel, which would normally be as brittle as glass, but extensively hot worked to retain some ductility. Old Damascus steel was made of sponge iron painstakingly extracted as little nuggets and hammered together into larger pieces on a wooden anvil. The wood naturally carbonized and surface coatings of the carbon got successively layered into and the metallic matrix forming Fe3C. The carbide content gives the metal its edge and strength; the softer iron matrix it's ductility. Modern "Damascus" steels are almost always come from molten iron stock, which unlike the never molten sponge irons, has major ductility problems right from the start which precludes the hot working necessar to make it sufficiently ductile. To get around this, they use a soft low carbon core with layers of high carbon "Damascus" on top. It works OK, but it's not a true Damascus. To make a true Damascus, you need a primitive iron ore reducing fire, infinite patience to make sure all your sponge iron nuggets get chemically reduced without melting ore getting too much crud in them, a stong hammering arm, a wooden anvil, a non-flaking stone hammer, and, yes, a lot more time to keep working and working this thing over a course of weeks or months until it reaches the right combination of hardness/ductility. You /could/ make a modern Damascus the old way, but it would really try the patience and definitely not be economic.